Conference turris::womannotes-v3

             <<< Note 958.0 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Going nonlinear" >>>
                                 -< Elevators >-

The elevator
is used by employees who are carrying nothing as well as employees that are
obviously handicapped either temporarily or permanently.

>>>I (male) use it when in LKG.....bad knees that hurt by the end of the 
day. Nothing you will see, but they hurt like heck anyway....and the stairs 
are long and winding.....

 I have noticed that elevator users with no large or heavy loads tend to be
almost exclusively female. I am wondering if anyone here has an explanation
for this phenomenon. Of the people that had nothing large or heavy, 17 of them were
women, and 2 were men. 

>>>> I have noticed that there as well, same in our building...high heels 
that hurt after a while? I dunno....and certainly wouldn't try to speak for 
any of the women in this file! 8^)

    Vic

    Your findings raise further questions in my mind.
    
    The major question that springs to mind is, "What sort of shoes are
    they wearing?"  [I tend to use elevators in direct proportion to the
    height and comfort of my shoes]
    
    A secondary question might be, "Are the unburdened travelling with the
    burdened?"  [just this past Thursday I rode an elevator in the Mill
    with a very pregnant co-worker, Friday was her last day before leave].
    
    Another, "How many of these women were using the elevator alone?" [I
    use elevators much more frequently if I am with other people than when
    I'm just myself alone]
    
    To summarise, beyond the shoes, I think it's more than a gender thing.
    But it could be a gender socialisation thing.
    
      Annie

    One ought to also consider the population distribution nearby.  If it
    were near a 17:2 ratio, this would be the expected result.  Then again,
    one should also take a sample of the users of the stairwells nearby
    to see if there is a gender based difference based on transportation
    medium.
    
    I suspect that the foregoing notes strike valid points also.
    
    ed

    Off the cuff reasons are:
    
    Laziness.  The "No one else is using it, so why shouldn't I?" attitude
    with the feminine/non-feminist belief that a pretty smile and a pretty
    apology will solve any problem that arrives.  ("Theodore Sturgeon was
    right," muttered the curmudgeon.)  But then I think about those shoes.
    And I think about how often a secretary is expected to bounce up and
    down stairs relative to everyone else.
    
    Modesty.  Stairs described as "long" and "winding".  Hmmm.  How many of
    the people using the stairs wear skirts?  How many of the people using
    the elevator wear pants?  (And related questions.)
    
    Machismo.  The other side of laziness.  "No matter how I feel, I will
    not be caught dead riding the elevator."  Which leaves those people
    who are not interested in being macho to ride the elevator.
    
    Phobia.  I have long been shocked at the number of people who cannot
    bring themselves to climb a ladder -- even though I balked at climbing
    the Statue of Liberty as a child.
    
    						Ann B.

    Bad knees? I use the elevator rather than stairs on the advice
    of my doctor. You couldn't tell by looking at me that I have to use
    the elevator.
    
    Eileen

    
    Randomness?
    
    
    Most of the people who prefer rest over aerobics and who work in LKG
    just happen to be female?
    
    
    
    N
    

    I wonder how many of them are secretaries also.  As a secretary in the
    Mill, I know I have run to the far corners of the Mill on a daily basis
    running errands for engineers.  I have to go to the copy center,
    shipping and receiving, petty cash, the main st lobby to pick up tix,
    the upper thompson lobby to bring in a vendor, etc, etc, etc. 
    Sometimes it can be rather tiring especially since I sit on 3-6.  I,
    however, never use the elevators because (1) I figure the exercise is
    good and it's about all I get most days, and (2) I'm claustrophobic and
    *hate* riding in elevators, knowing that if I ever got stuck in one I
    would become a screaming lunatic within a matter of seconds.  (although
    I am afraid of ladders, too, Ann...but haven't had to climb any in the
    Mill yet)
    
    Lorna
    

	I don't work in LKG, but used to work (until this week) in BXC
	and I used the elevator frequently in what you (base-noter)
	seem to consider "unnecessary".  Why ??  I have been having an
	extremely bad time with my asthma lately, due to the pollen
	and allergies that trigger and trying to walk from the parking
	lot (NOT the closest space) AND then up three flights was, many
	times, too much for my lungs.  I figured better to look "lazy"
	and ride the elevator than get to the top of the stairs wheezing
	and ready to pass out because I couldn't breathe.

	I guess the point of my writing this is.....just because you
	can't see a reason why, don't assume the worst !

	my $.02 
	Debbi

    i know one man who looks to be in good health who uses the elevator at
    our site frequently. Turns out he has a bad heart.
    Another man who has had quadruple bypass surgery.
    Another who has a bad back.
    Another who smokes very heavily and is somewhere in his mid-forties.
    (Incipient emphysema is a good guess, but don't know)
    The only woman I can remember using the elevator at our site is very
    over-weight

    
    Also, the base note didn't state whether it was the same
    few three or four women using it over and over again during
    the time the count was taken.
    

    
    	My theory is that people rode the elevator because they had no
    	idea company time was being spent watching them do it (and if
    	someone were to tell them now, I'm sure they still wouldn't
    	believe it.)  :)
    
    	How is Digital stock doing today, by the way?
    

 re: ed

>    One ought to also consider the population distribution nearby.  If it
>    were near a 17:2 ratio, this would be the expected result.
 
 I thought of this. As near as I can tell, the population "nearby" is fairly
well mixed, with perhaps a slight advantage going to the male segment of the
population.

re: Nick

>    Most of the people who prefer rest over aerobics and who work in LKG
>    just happen to be female?

 Doubtful. Some of the same women seen entering the elevator have also been seen
entering the aerobics room with appropriate workout attire.

re: Debbi

>	and I used the elevator frequently in what you (base-noter)
>	seem to consider "unnecessary". 

 I did not use the term "unnecessary" in the base note nor did I use any
judgemental language at all. Why are you on the defensive?

>I figured better to look "lazy"
>	and ride the elevator than get to the top of the stairs wheezing
>	and ready to pass out because I couldn't breathe.

 Where are you getting these quotes from? I didn't use "lazy" either.

>	I guess the point of my writing this is.....just because you
>	can't see a reason why, don't assume the worst !

 You are making the assumption that I am assuming the worst. I am not. I am
attempting to understand what factors contribute to the discrepancy between
the general population distribution and the population distribution that
rides the elevators with no bulky or heavy loads. As for your personal
reasons for riding the elevator, I of course have no quarrel with them, but
they don't help me understand the apparent correlation with gender. Do you
think that many more women than men have asthma severe enough that it would 
explain the discrepancy?

re: Ellen

>    Also, the base note didn't state whether it was the same
>    few three or four women using it over and over again during
>    the time the count was taken.

 It was different women each time.

re: Suzanne

>    	My theory is that people rode the elevator because they had no
>    	idea company time was being spent watching them do it 

 "Company time" was not being spent watching them do it. I happen to sit in
proximity to the elevator, and simply opened my eyes during my trips past it.
It's called being observant.

>I think he's pulling our legs here, folks.
 
 I'm not. So do you have any explanations, or are you simply attacking the
messenger?

>     	How is Digital stock doing today, by the way?
    
 Does that have any relevance to the current discussion? Seems like you're
being a trifle disingenuous. I guess you missed a part of the basenote.

 re: I can't remember

 Most often, the women were in groups of 2 or more. I think I only noticed
1 occasion where there was only one woman.

 The Doctah

    re: .7
    
    *groan*  Oh, Lorna, don't remind me about being a secretary in the
    Mill!  uck. blecho.
    
    my deepest sympathies to you --- on the other hand, it *is* a lot of
    exercise, isn't it?
    
    Daniel

    Someone mentioned phobia - I don't panic*in elevators, but why take the
    chance?  To answer my own question:  because I have a cart or dolly
    (full or empty), or some other large and/or awkward burden.
    
    If I do take the elevator, I prefer to do so alone.  That, of course,
    is not something I can control so my preference is not a rule.
    
    *  Well, once, but that was different!  In that I was 9 months pregnant
       (delivered three days later, but at the time I didn't know what I had 
       for a margin?) and the elevator was extremely small - in my panic I wondered
    how I would give birth since I have always done so lying down...
    

> I thought of this. As near as I can tell, the population "nearby" is fairly
>well mixed, with perhaps a slight advantage going to the male segment of the
>population.

Do you mean there are slightly more men?  If so, then wouldn't the
advantage belong to the women?  ;-)

D!

    .14 title -< What happened?  Why am I here? >- had nothing to do with
    either Sartre or the elevator story.  Suddenly I found myself at the
    title prompt?  Oh, to be high tech - sigh.
    
    Anyway, I was once in an elevator that was stuck briefly between
    floors and another of the occupants was hysterical.  So between the
    time I was trapped in the small elevator with my unborn (praying that
    she would stay that way - you think I'm kidding?  Uh-uhn!) and the time
    I was temporarily deafened by screams (and swamped by my glands - all
    that adrenaline, and no way out), I prefer to ascend and descend alone.
    
    I've been very interested to see the comments in the string - a lot of
    points I hadn't considered.  Maybe an exit poll could be taken?  :)
    
    aq
    
    
    
    
    aq

    re .16, since I do have claustrophobia, I prefer to take elevators with
    other people.  That way, if the elevator were to get stuck between
    floors, I could clutch at someone's throat and scream hysterically for
    them to "Do something!  Get me out of here!, etc, etc"  If I were alone
    who would I do that to?
    
    I only take elevators alone when it's unavoidable - Prudential Bldg.,
    etc.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    
    I take the elevator all the time in this tiny building of mine.  I only
    work on the second floor and there are only about 30 steps to climb up
    at the most.
    
    Hey, our philosophy here is "if you don't use it they will take it
    away."
    
    ;-)
    
    
    In all seriousness, though....I have bad knees.  I can adequately
    protect myself going UP the stairs, but if one of my knees gave out
    going DOWN the stairs, I could easily break my neck.
    
    
    kath

    	Ok, I guess this topic is serious after all, so I'll offer my
    	true theory:
    
    	Riding the elevator without a valid (visible) reason isn't illegal
    	or immoral - but taking the stairs is far more politically correct.
    
    	Women tend to be more willing to be more politically incorrect about 
    	this.

    
    
    RE: .19
    
    You've got to be joking.........................
    
    A person doesn't need a REASON to take an elevator versus stairs.  If
    it's there, and you want to use it, WHY NOT?  
    
    Politically Correct my a$$......some of the most health-conscious, most
    social conscious people I know take elevators when they have no visible
    OR non-visible malady to prevent them from doing so. And the do so
    because it's convenient.
    
    If we're going to go to this extreme, then I'm sure you'll have to
    agree that it's politically incorrect to:
    
    	Drive to work/store if you are within walking/biking/running distance
    	Drink sugared beverages when "natural" beverages are around.
    	Park as near as possible to the building that you are going to
    		enter.
    
    	etc......................................
    
    
    Basically, what you're suggesting is that if someone feels the need to
    be "politically correct" and they have a bad heart condition, they
    should STILL take the stairs so they don't appear to be PI to others
    who it might influence (because on the outside they look physically
    fit). 
    
    You know what a statement like the reminds me of?  Etiquette-training
    for the elite.  "you must do XXX despite the fact that it will
    inconvenience you simply because you simply CAN'T appear to be 
    improper!!!! <smack, smack>
    
    I think this comes down to the fact that one must "always appear to be
    superior to another...."  Who CARES if a person takes an elevator and
    WHY they take an elevator!!!!!!!!!!  As long as they aren't preventing
    those that truly NEED the elevator from using it, WHAT DOES IT MATTER
    beyond the fact that the person "complaining" wishes to feel "superior"
    to the elevator-user?!
    
    
    Still taking an elevator, and still extremely physically fit and
    socially conscious...........and proud of it all,
    
    	kath

    
    
    	Bingo!
    

	The elevator in ZK1 has a sign that says (paraphrased, because I'm
no longer there) "Elevator is for freight and handicapped use only."

					--D

    re: .19
    
    It sounds to me like you're jumping immediately to the defensive.
    First you tried to attack the messenger with "company time is being
    spent to watch" then you pooh-poohed it with "he's just yanking
    our chain" now this.
    
    And why do you think that "politically incorrect" means "cool"?
    
    
                                      L.J.

   <<< Note 958.22 by EDWIN::WAYLAY::GORDON "Of course we have secrets..." >>>
>
>	The elevator in ZK1 has a sign that says (paraphrased, because I'm
>no longer there) "Elevator is for freight and handicapped use only."

    Does this mean that because of sore and painful knees I would need to 
get a handicap sticker for my briefcase should I choose to use the elevator 
in ZKO???   8^) 

    Vic (Who'se knees only bother him occasionally...)

	Beats me.  I was only reporting a fact.  Since I never had occasion to
require the elevator to move equipment, and, in truth, rarely needed to leave
the floor in the year I was there, I never rode the elevator.  I simply passed
the sign every day on my way to the M.R. or Caf...

					--D

This note sure has its ups and downs.

Yuck, yuck.

Bruce

    
    Thanks for that upLIFTing note, Bruce.
    
    
    Justine

    
    
    All these puns are really pushing my buttons!
    
    
    N
    

    
    dec stock is down 2 1/4 on the day according to the lady on npr..

    The elevator in LKG2 is also listed as a "freight" elevator. 
    I used it quite frequently when I was working in LKG - at one
    point my office was on 2A and most of the folks I needed to
    meet with were on 2-2.  Not that that's tremendously far, but
    when you're suffering with cortisone shots to try to "save"
    your knees, you don't aggravate the situation and take the 
    stairs because it might be "PC".
    
    The worst part was not having snappy comebacks for the folks
    that questioned my use of the elevator (I'm not obviously
    disabled (even though my knees hurt), so why was I being so 
    lazy?!).
      
    

    re. 0
    
    So, Mark,
    
    are we close to a reasonable discussion?
    
    do you feel in imminent danger?
    
    any regrets?
    
      Annie

    RE: .23  L.J.

    > It sounds to me like you're jumping immediately to the defensive.

    Alas, appearances can be deceiving.  You sound defensive to me, too.

    > First you tried to attack the messenger with "company time is being
    > spent to watch" ...

    Oh, do you mean "shooting the messenger" (for being the one to carry 
    "bad news"?)  So far, I haven't heard anything that qualifies as 
    "bad news," so I have no preferences on the fate of the messenger
    or the source of the message (in this case, the same person.) 
    Perhaps the bad news is yet to come; who knows?

    > ...then you pooh-poohed it with "he's just yanking our chain" now 
    > this.

    Not so.  I said I *thought* he was pulling our legs (i.e., "kidding.")
    I found it hard to believe that someone would start a discussion
    about something as innocuous as elevators with a disclaimer about 
    what a dangerous SUBJECT it was.  (Per someone else, it does have its 
    ups and downs, but aside from the possibility of elevator accidents,
    nothing dangerous has been presented about them so far - so I'm still
    a bit sceptical that this topic is supposed to be serious.)

    > And why do you think that "politically incorrect" means "cool"?

    Because it does.  Didn't you know that?  
    
    This is how it works:  If someone frowns upon something that you don't
    think is a problem (and it isn't illegal or immoral in a strict sense,)
    you can label the argument "politically correct" (then oppose it on 
    that ground, thus deeming yourself "politically incorrect," and cool.)
    
    So *IF* anyone here later says they don't think it's right to ride the 
    elevator without a "valid" reason, then I've already deemed this 
    objection as politically correct (thus, anyone who wants to ride the 
    elevator now, for whatever reason they deem appropriate themselves, can 
    do so unless there are specific rules against it, as in ZK.)  
    
    I fixed it (even though I'm not a member of the group that will benefit
    from this.)
    
    See how it works?  :-)/2

    
    	Love the puns in here - I see that you all were able to rise to
    	the occasion ok... [sorry!] :-)
    
    	Bob, thanks for the stock report.  It has its ups and downs, too,
    	I guess.
    

    
    at least i didn't use the 'box term for "female npr commentator"..

    
    	Yes, Bob - and thanks again.  :-)
    

    
    re: .34 Yes, someone might've been tempted to give you the shaft.
    
    Ar ar ar.
    
    CQ

    I'm not cable to think up any elevator puns...but I here it is a rising
    field of humor!
    
    \D/

    some of these remarks leave me with a sinking feeling

    
    
    Yeah, this topic is really going down.
    
    

>    are we close to a reasonable discussion?

 Reasonable, yes.

>    do you feel in imminent danger?

 Nope.

>    any regrets?
    
 Not really. I just wish there had been more theories which would have accounted
for the reason that there was an observed gender disparity rather than 
simple justification for using the elevator for no obvious (to the outside
observer) reason. I already knew the reasons why one would use the elevator,
I just have no explanation for why so many more women than men use it.

 The Doctah

    I think the heel size explanation is a good one. 
    
    But, the reason I ride the elevator...which I rarely do...is because
    I LIKE to.
    
    Pretty simple.
    
    Pam

    re .40, Mark, here's the reason why more women use the elevator than
    men.  It's the combination of more women having jobs that require them
    to run errands (secretaries) and the fact that more women wear
    uncomfortable shoes (as .41 suggested).  Running around all day in high
    heels makes people's feet hurt, but since this never happens to men
    they don't realize it.
    
    However, as I have already mentioned these people don't realize that
    the horrible possibility of being trapped and dying alone, gasping for
    breath, on an elevator is just not worth the risk.  Thus, one of the
    reasons I don't wear high heels is because I get claustrophobia on
    elevators.
    
    Lorna
    

    There is also the socialisation of convenience.
    
    This may sound a little weird, but I believe that western feminine
    socialisation tends to predispose women to conservation of time and
    effort in the mundane.  There's no reason to sweep if a vacuum cleaner
    is at hand; there's no reason to light a fire if a stove or an oven
    are handy; there's no reason to take the stairs if an elevator is
    there.  This socialisation comes under the the heading of 'common
    sense.'
    
    In many cases, western masculine socialisation equates convenience with
    weakness or need.
    
    In both instances there is a shift in progress, and much of the
    shifting going on is toward convergence of socialisation.
    
    There are some very good reasons to take the stairs rather than the
    elevator, or park farther away in the parking lot, or bake instead of
    nuking food. It's just that social evolution is not zippy fast.
    
      Annie
    

    re ...if the elevator is there
    makes sense!
    
    On the other hand, every once in a while i have occassion to ride the
    elevator because I am with someone who feels the need to use it (in
    both cases, men in their 50s with defective hearts).  In my
    experience i have found that waiting for the elevator takes
    considerably longer than walking up stairs (even two flights)

>In my
>    experience i have found that waiting for the elevator takes
>    considerably longer than walking up stairs (even two flights)

 Mine too! This is one of the reasons I asked the question in the first place!

>>   In my
>>   experience i have found that waiting for the elevator takes
>>   considerably longer than walking up stairs (even two flights)

>  Mine too! This is one of the reasons I asked the question in the first place!

    
    Mine too, and that's why I, even though a woman and wearing high heels 
    and with tired feet, will generally take the stairs.  However, Mark, I
    had to quickly check your location to make sure you aren't the man who
    sits next to the elevator in my new location and sees me take it 
    every time I make a trip to the cafeteria.  You see, in this building,
    the stairs located next to the elevator require one to use a
    key card, and mine hasn't been programmed for LTN2 yet.  Also, the
    only "open" stairs in the building are in the central corridor, and
    my office, the elevator, and the cafeteria are all on the far left of
    the left wing.
    
    In all my previous jobs I've used the stairs (often three and four 
    flights) as one of the few means for me to get exercise on the job.
    
    Thanks to this string you've nudged me into making the walk to the
    central stairs instead.
    
    Karen
    

 Thanks for the guilt complex. :-)

remembering my days in the mill:

high heels hurt.  Also, with steep stairs, women must hold their skirts
to their back legs in some manner ...or offer a display that is not considered
professional to anyone going up the stairs behind them....if you wear slacks,
of course, that reason is not valid...but, many women get into the habit of
avoiding stairs because of the skirt/dress issue...right along with the
warning that all young women used to get about patent leather shoes.

I really do believe the shoes are the main reason...any walking that can be
avoided in those torture tools is avoided.  However, the skirt issue is not
trivial.  All it takes is overhearing a group of men talking in the cafeteria
about the great view from the stairs, etc. to remind women about that
vulnerability.

In Holland, the stairs are _very_ steep (on a few of them, I've wanted
to use my hands like on a ladder). My mother claims that it's considered
polite there for men to preceed women when ascending. Too bad that's not
the case in the states.


Liz

    Sort of tangental to this - this weekend I took the train to Washington
    D.C. and back. I found that a mild escalator nervousness has blossomed
    into a full scale phobia of down escalators or *long* up escalators.
    
    I had to keep hunting for elevators or stairs in the subway station
    and missed subways several times as a result.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie, 
    
    RE escalator phobia.  It's just been the last year when it started for
    me too.  I had always wondered why my mother wouldn't ride one, and now
    I know.  
    
    Stairs don't bother me and I ususally use them, but I work in pants,
    and sneakers, so I'm not handicapped by cruel shoes.  However, given
    the choice between escalators, or open stairways, and elevators, you
    will find me on the elevator these days.
    
    Meg

    Meg,
    
    I felt I was close to fainting on one escalator when I couldn't
    find an elevator! I made a point of looking at my feet and not
    *all*the*way*down*!
    
    I do know that I'm a confirmed elevator user when possible after
    this last weekend.
    
    Bonnie

re .49

>My mother claims that it's considered
>polite there for men to preceed women when ascending. Too bad that's not
>the case in the states.

	I live in the US, and that is what I was taught...

				Tom_K

    Bonnie, odd, esculators don't bother me at all because they're open
    and, although I don't normally like heights, I've never been on one
    that was so high or steep that it scared me.
    
    Personally,  I couldn't care less if somebody looks up my skirt while
    I'm climbing the stairs.  I have too many other things to think about. 
    Of course, I guess it would bother me if people looked up my skirt and
    made rude comments!  But, if they look and keep their opinion to
    themselves, I couldn't care less!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re: escalators
    
    ugh...I sympathize...as a kid I used to have nightmares about getting
    sucked underneath the escalator...
    
    Daniel

    Daniel,
    
    It's more an unreasonable fear of falling for me.
    
    Lorna, I think this first started years ago when I had to ride the
    escalator from the metro to the Washington Zoo. It was until the
    longer one opened in Moscow, the longest escalator in the world.
    Short rides are still pretty much okay, especially if there are
    people in front or back of me, but that loonnggg ride up with greater
    and greater distance falling behind me, activated my old roller
    coaster fears I think.
    
    Any way, as of this past weekend, I'm for elevators for any down
    ride on an open escalator.
    
    Bonnie

    When I was a kid, I was riding an escalator in a department store when
    I noticed a two or three inch gap between the stairs and the side of
    the escalator.  Of course, being the curious kid that I was, I stuck my
    foot into the gap.
    
    My foot was sucked about halfway into the escalator before my shouts
    brought somebody running to the bottom of the thing to press the
    emergency "stop" button.
    
    Half my sneaker was torn to bits, but I only suffered large bruises on
    my foot.  The scariest thing was, once the sneaker started getting
    pulled in, it constricted around my foot tight enough to prevent me
    from pulling it off.  Luckily the sneaker (and my foot) was being pulled
    in slowly enough that I had the 5 or 6 seconds it took for someone
    to rescue me.
    
    -Scott

    I worked in LKG and used the elevator due to bad knees.  I also don't
    recall any offices that would be in view of the elevator doors... 
    Don't you have any real work to do?

for the basenoter - fear of falling for me too !

Bonnie - I know what you mean about fear of falling !!  As a matter of fact, 
that's one of the reasons I will use the elevator going DOWN if my hands are
"busy" carrying other items.....I fell when I was a child because I couldn't
see where I was going and was badly scared (thankfully, NOT badly hurt !).  To
this day, if I can't see where I'm going when going down stairs, I HAVE to be
able to hang on........and even then, I go soooooooooo slow..........

with escalators, too, I hate steep downhill ones - ever see the one in the T
station in Alewife ???  If I go with a friend, I ALWAYS make sure s/he's in 
front of me and THAT's who I look at, not the escalator !!!!  If I'm alone,
ELEVATOR TIME !!!!!!!!

Debbi J