Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Women and men have somewhat different characteristic strengths; but I do know
that there is a whole lot I would do to protect or provide for my children, in
extremity, that I would never consider doing at any other time.  Steal, or kill,
for example.  I think my husband, their father, would do the same.

I don't think I believe that men and women are different when it comes to 
altruism.

Sara

    I am strong because the other choice is to crumble.
    
    I am malleable because the other choice is to break.
    
    I am flexible and yielding because the other choice is to shatter.
    
    I grow where the light is strongest, am phototropic towards
    potential, and I have become so used to growing in mere cracks in the
    patriarchy's sidewalk that any other way feels alien.
    
    I do what I need to do to flourish.  Given the alternatives, it's what
    is required. 
    
    If I can flourish in this environment, imagine what I could be if I was
    given free rein.
    
    -Jody
    
    

>I don't think I believe that men and women are different when it comes to 
>altruism.
>
>Sara


	Good points you made, but there's a minor philosophical
	flaw here:

	Caring for your children, even to the point of losing your life
	to protect them is NOT altruism.

	An altruist gains nothing of value when he/she performs
	an action like this.  If something of value was gained or
	protected ( even "feeling good" ), the act is not altruistic.

	Since the lives of their children
	are a supreme value in most parents' lives,  making
	what's often called "the supreme sacrifice" in an
	emergency is simply taking action to protect a great
	value.

	Like the soldier who throws himself on a hand grenade to
	save his comrades, these parents gain a great value by
	protecting their offspring.

	Steve H

    RE:      <<< Note 860.2 by LEZAH::BOBBITT "pools of quiet fire" >>>
    
    Nicely put, Jody!
    
    I especially like

    "I have become so used to growing in mere cracks in the
    patriarchy's sidewalk that any other way feels alien.
    
    . . .
    
    If I can flourish in this environment, imagine what I could be if I was
    given free rein."
    

    
    All these replies are interesting but I guess I didn't phrase my 
    question properly.  What I'm trying to gather here, are opinions
    as to whether or not women can survive difficult situations and/or
    pain, be it physical or mental or spiritual, better than men can?
    And do you all think that women are necessarily stronger or is just
    a perception issue?
    
    Sue
    

    I think women can survive those situations better than men.
    I think women are necessarily stronger.
    Sorry that was unclear in my previous reply.
    
    -Jody
    

Why are folks so intent on finding differences (physical, emotional,
intellectual) and making vast generalizations about gender?  I guess
it can be a fun game to play (Find the Difference), but let's face
it:  we're all incredibly alike.  So alike, in fact, that sometimes
I can't tell if I'm me or the person with whom I'm speaking!  Perhaps
we like to play Find the Difference because we're so alike we have a
need to feel "different." Generalizations about groups (male/female,
black/white, straight/gay) are inevitably wrong and lead to
preconceived notions about an individual simply because they belong
to a certain category.  Groups are comprised of individuals; each
individual is and does according to HIS or HER own ability.

Now, lets play Find the Difference.

I disagree.

I think there are VAST differences between people, and one of the vastest
is gender.

As my psych professor used to say, men and women are so different that the
surprising part isn't how much strife there is between them but that they
get along at ALL!

D!

re: .7
    
>Why are folks so intent on finding differences (physical, emotional,
>intellectual) and making vast generalizations about gender?  I guess
>it can be a fun game to play (Find the Difference), but let's face
    
    I am intent on naming the differences I find.  It is not a game to me,
    so please do not label it as such.  If you wish to gloss over the
    differences, please do, but do not call my search for patterns and
    differences and combinations a game.
    
>we like to play Find the Difference because we're so alike we have a
>need to feel "different." Generalizations about groups (male/female,
>black/white, straight/gay) are inevitably wrong and lead to
>preconceived notions about an individual simply because they belong
>to a certain category.  
    
    Who is "we"?  Are you speaking for me?  I need to feel I know where I
    am and who I am and how I relate to other people, via similarities and
    differences.  Generalizations about groups are not inevitably wrong,
    although improperly used they can produce stereotypes.
    
>Now, lets play Find the Difference.
    
    I already see several between you and I.
    
    -Jody
    

   re: .7
    
    As someone who has spent some time studying the non-difference
    as you called it, I disagree!  The differences are there and very
    real, they permeate the very fabric of our thinking.  Some stem
    from biology others from culture and they do interact.  It's not
    a game and trivializing it as such is an insult to the who have
    spent serious time and effort studying those differences and how
    they arise.

    Allison

I agree and disagree at the same time!

While there are undisputable differences in biology and unquestionable
difference based on the social conditioning we get, I think at other
levels we have very similar concerns and issues...

The "game" thing was a metaphor, not meant to insult or trivialize.
But, if someone's sacred cow is just plain hamburger to me ...

re: .9

> Generalizations about groups are not inevitably wrong.

That's dangerous.  Make ANY generalization about the character of a
jew, an italian, a black, a white, a man, a woman, etc.  that is true
for all individuals in that group, if you dare.  Because once you do
and actually believe it, you're a bigot.

Seeking and finding difference has always been one of the great causes
of conflict in the world.  The perceived and/or made up differences
between religions, customs, politics, habits, genders, races has been
the excuse for injustice, mistreatment, slaughter, genocide since
forever.  If our basic sameness had been realized long ago,
discrimination and worse!  (based on race, religion, age, sex, etc.)
would never have come to pass.  Equal rights stem from the fact that we
are equal -- more alike than not.  If there are such VAST differences
between this group and that, perhaps we should categorize them and only
allow select groups to perform certain functions.  You can see where
that leads.

I certainly see the differences among folks -- "folks" not
men and women, black and white, jew and gentile, etc.  But I see more
similarities than difference.  It scares me to hear people making
sweeping generalizations about some group or other and then applying it
to me or some other individual.  That's what they did in Germany once
upon a time.

    I see your opint.
    
    Thank you for clarifying.
    
    -Jody
    

    I tend to support .07.  Anyway, I know from personal experience
    that childbirth is painful.  But I also know of women that were
    so afraid of aniticpated pain and wanted the "spinal block" or whatever
    pain relievers are available.  So, I don't think women need to prove
    that they can handle or endure pain better then men.    It's not
    like women have much of a choice in the who gets to get pregnant
    anyway, so they have to take the pain.  We can't blame men for that.
    
    I don't know if the childbearing pain can be compared to other physical
    pain, but once it's over, it's over.  I'm sure there must be other
    physical pains that are very hurtful to men as well as women just
    the same.
                                                                        
    I've often wondered as to what lengths some men may go through to
    support their children.  But, I also know that some women wouldn't
    go through "anything" to support their children.  Myself, I just
    about would, and that's from personal experience.  I would never
    say never.
    
    I wonder "what's the point or why" does it matter if women can or
    can't endure pain or sufferring better than men.  Then what?

>    All these replies are interesting but I guess I didn't phrase my 
>    question properly.  What I'm trying to gather here, are opinions
>    as to whether or not women can survive difficult situations and/or
>    pain, be it physical or mental or spiritual, better than men can?
>    And do you all think that women are necessarily stronger or is just
>    a perception issue?
    
Physically, women are equipped to give birth and nuture
the young - provided no young are sapping her reserves, it is presumed by
science that the [average, ideal] female of the species can survive the
same physical stresses longer than the [average, ideal] male of the species.
This is presumed to be an evolutionary gain in order to support the natal
and post-natal demands of the young.

On the emotional front, things are not so cleanly cut. Throughout history,
man has had both weapons and the training with which to fight for his 
life/family/freedom, etc.  Woman has generally been left with much less.
Women have withstood pain and degradation in order to survive and keep their
children alive because they HAD to.  Men fought and died in wars because they
had to.  Who can say whether facing other men armed with a spear or sword
and the determination to kill/maim you is easier or harder than serving as a 
prostitute or slave for enemies of your tribe/family/nation?

What we do know is that the human creature is amazingly resiliant, adaptable,
intelligent, and determined to survive.

    It is obvious that I cannot speak for women.  I have heard that women
    who have passed kidney stones AND also have given birth, often think
    the stones hurt worse.  All I can tell you is, I would rather have
    given birth because the result would have been more pleasing.
    
    Nuturing?  Well, FWIW, neither of the women I married have had much
    in the way of a nurturing nature (ask my daughters).  I think I do, at
    least I know that I enjoy children, animals, and plants.  Seeing them
    grow and develop is pleasing and I am thankful to have had a part in
    it.
    
    Do anything to protect my family?  I am not easily riled, most people
    would say I am a very low key individual (regarding aggression).  Let
    someone or something threaten my children or spouse and I can even
    scare myself (in retrospect).  I would hope that was true for women and
    men.
    
    I speak for myself though.
    jimc

    
    Kidney stones vs giving birth.....I've experienced both and would take
    giving birth over kidney stones any day!