Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Will there be a booth on AIDS?  This is the most disgusting entry
    I think I've ever seen....and the Valuing Diversity (VD) folks
    wonder why half the company holds their efforts in contempt.  I
    wonder of K.O knows about this.

   RE: .1 

   What is disgusting about the entry in 1044.0?  Is it the wording or the
   subject matter?  It's not clear from your text.

   Peace,
   Allison

>>COOKIE::LENNARD
    
    >>I wonder of K.O knows about this.
    
    Well, I suggest you run an tattle to him.                               

    What's disgusting to me is that DEC would officially sanction an
    attempt to try and white-wash an immoral life-style.  I object to
    Digital facilities and one cent of Digital money being used so these
    people can try and convince us how happy and "proud" they are.
    
    If I were in MR, I would show up and picket the damned thing.  Hope
    somebody does.

>...attempt to try and white-wash an immoral life-style.

and previously, a reference to holding Valuing Diversity efforts in contempt.

really, cookie::, I was not aware that your religious/political beliefs were
codified in the Orange Book.

perhaps I was mistaken, though.

Sara

    Hey, do you think I didn't know I wasn't going to bring down a ration
    of you-know-what on my head with .1  It's the ultimate PC issue, and
    they're all going to have fun passing out buttons and stick-ons, etc.,
    but sometimes it is just necessary to speak out when you think some-
    thing is really wrong.  I think this is.

    It is my understanding that Orange Book protection is extended
    to the area of sexual orientation as well as race, religion,
    gender etc. We are not expected, as DEC employees to have to
    listen to bigotry and hatred of minorities of any type.
    
    Mr Lennard I do wish you would take yours some place else and
    not soil womannotes with it.
    
    Bonnie

    .7, Well, then, thank you for sharing that with us...However, there are
    *many* of us who do feel this is not only worthwhile but needed, and
    it's good to know our company still supports our differences and
    diversity.
    
    Many lifestyles, choices, people, are *immoral* to somebody, but who
    exactly is to judge?  You....me?  I think not.
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA

    I agree that sometimes it's necessary to speak out when you think
    something is really wrong.  
    
    I think you are really wrong.
    
    

    re: 1044.1
    
    I can understand a person not agreeing with a "lifestyle", but one who 
    imposes those views and opinions on others is promoting their *own* 
    ignorance and arrogance. You may agree or disagree as you wish, but kindly
    keep such callous remarks to yourself. And that, my dear sir, is what I 
    perceive "valuing differences" to be all about. 
    
    IMHO, I would humbly *suggest* the MODs may want to delete any and all 
    responses to this (my own included) and write-lock this topic, to just 
    let this ad stand on its own.             

    Some could consider smoking rooms immoral, yes?  Urinals in women's
    rooms, too.  Or tampons availble to virgins in the women's rooms.  Or 
    dead animals being served in the cafeteria.  Or changing an important 
    holiday to a Monday so we can all party an extra night on the weekend.  
    But love and acceptance?  Immoral??  Yours is merely your own personal 
    axe to grind, I'm afraid, and you'd appear in a much better light if no 
    one else knew about it.  The apparent sexual hysteria that makes you 
    single this one out doesn't cast you in a very flattering light.
    
    S.                      

    I would like to congratulate the organizers of this event. I'm also
    glad to see people like the author of .1 participate here (really).
    I think it's important to recognize all viewpoints. And to those who
    disagree with .1, it's important to remember that these attitudes exist
    so that we can avoid complacency. Imho, .1 represents one person's
    viewpoint, and certainly not that of everyone in =wn.
    
    Peace,
    Liz

    OK, gyns and guys,
    
    Much as I could wish that M.Lennard had not expressed this particular
    view, I can't sanction asking him to go sit in the closet.
    
    He's gotta be what he is.
    
    If Valuing of Diversity is _ever_ going to work, we'd probably all do
    best by exploring who people are rather than trying to force them to
    conform to our internal realities before seeing them.
    
    Regards,
      Ann Johnston
      =wn= comod

   RE: .7  <<< Note 1044.7 by COOKIE::LENNARD "Rush Limbaugh, I Luv Ya Guy" >>>

   You suggest these people taking some level of personal risk is fun.
   Did it occur to you part of this is about the risk they take because
   there are people that think being anything other than "normal" is
   sick and have no qualms toward abusing them any way they care to. 
   There is no attempt to make you endorse their lives, there is an
   intent to remind people that they are people first and have dignity.

   Defining something imoral, and pronouncing something so is a personal
   value judgement and therefore limited to your own reality.  Use care,
   for others may judge you differently.

   Peace,
   Allison
   

rjk, I believe that .1 falls under the definition you gave in .15 of 'fanatic'
and it is THAT that I object to.  Immoral was the word he used.

he's free to think what he likes, as you are, as I am; and we are free to 
think what we will of it.

    rjk,
    
    If you don't believe in "flaunting" lifestyles, why did you mention
    that you were married?  Marriage is just soooo typical of that
    heterosexual way of life that shouts at us from wedding bands and
    desk photos every day.  Look how you waved "my wife" under our noses!
    
    						Ann B.

CERBUS::KARLSON you really make me laugh. Where have you been that
you've missed all the displays of heterosexual orientation? Never
been to a wedding? Never been asked to chip in on a wedding gift
for a co-worker? Never seen the male/female couples walking down the
street hand-in-hand? Never seen a ******* wedding band on someone at
work? Or a picture of a spouse on a desk at work?

Go flaunt it someplace else.

Kathy

    re-.15
    
    I believe there is a difference in .1's response, verbally condemning
    an *event* to make people *aware* of a "lifestyle" that has been supressed
    and ridiculed over centuries because people just as ignorant as -.1 have 
    already inflicted their negative views of "such people" on society. 
    
    Raising public awareness of anything is a far cry from the condemnation
    of those who *wish* to raise public awareness, which is what .1 was doing.
    
    I won't deny his right to speak (or write) *his* mind, as long as he 
    grants others the same priviledge...and I don't think that this
    particular discussion is going anywhere, folks. It's the same dance,
    just a different tune IMHO.

   RE: -.?   CERBUS::KARLSON 

   Oh yes, and that marriage thing. Talk about privledge and legal 
   exclusivity.  

   Allison

    It has been my experience, both from changes in my perceptions and
    changes I have observed in others, that being exposed to gays,
    lesbians, bisexuals, and transexuals causes many to demystify and
    dedevilize those with lifestyles other than that of the observer.
    
    (What a dreadful sentence!)
    
    I've met and worked with gays, bisexuals, and transexuals (maybe
    lesbians, too, but no one how identified themselves) and I found out a
    simple truth: that we are all essentially the same, sexual orientation
    is simply not that important.
    
    Some people probably will not have the opportunity to work with or know
    these diverse types (out of the closet) and so having an awareness
    event may help those disadvantaged (the ones who have not had my
    opportunities).
    
    /s/ Jim WIlliams

    
    rjk, I can accept your note as your own viewpoint (as you asked
    us to) except the part where you launch into something about the
    "bedroom" stuff - huh?  Where'd that come from?  I'm reasonably
    sure that you don't "flaunt" what you do in the bedroom, as you say.
    Now what makes you think this event will do that?  What do you
    think you'd find if you went there?  "Dirty" pictures?  Honestly,
    what are you thinking of, rjk?
    

    This notes file is looking very much like it belongs to people who
    prefer same sex lifestyles. As far as gay males go I really don't need
    to be educated on sodomy. Keep it private and I won't throw up.



    			Wayne

Wayne, I'm afraid you've got me all wrong.  We do, though, tend here to be
less likely to, um, regurgitate at the mere thought that someone's choices
might differ from our own, than your reply seems to indicate you are.

I somehow don't think anyone is going to have *any* kind of sex in front of
you in public.  Please do try not to let your prejudices influence your ability
to read what is written.

Sara

      re: a couple back.
    
    Any straight couple who has ever engaged in anything but missionary
    position sex has engaged in sodomy (at least in some states).  Did you
    know that, technically, you can be arrested for such sexual acts?
    Of course, conveniently, when the the laws are enforced (which is
    seldom), it's only applied to gay couples.
    
    	GJD

re: .15
    
    
>>I don't run around asking for a "HETEROSEXUAL AWARENESS DAY", do I?  

Roy, you don't have to.

>>Do I ask you to come to seminars on my lifestyle?  

Again, you don't have to.  All anyone need do is watch t.v., go to a 
movie, go anywhere in this country, and images and symbols of heterosexual 
living, dating, bedroom antics, etc., are plastered everywhere.  Ad 
agencies use heterosexual sex to sell products of all kinds.

>>Do I ask Digitial to devote
>>time, resources, and work hours to the acknowledgement of my sexual
>>preference or "lifestyle"?

Again, you don't have to.  But guess what, Digital devotes time, resources 
and work hours in the acknowledgement of your sexual orientation.  Take for 
instance, benefits.  Maternity leave (although prenancy isn't exclusive to 
heterosexuals, but the majority of maternity leaves are taken by 
heterosexual women).  You don't have to worry about being harrassed or 
fired because of your sexual orientation.

The thing that was glaringly obvious in your reply was the fact that you 
take your heterosexual privilege for granted.  In fact, it appears that yo 
don't even have a clue that heterosexual privilege exists.

>>Do I feel like I must promote my life-
>>style to these people?  Not in the least.

Again, you don't have to promote your sexual orientation.  In this society, 
church, state, media, etc. promote it for you.

>>I deal with people AS PEOPLE.  Regardless of race, religious belief, or
>>sexual preference.

That's good that you do.  Many people don't.  Have you ever heard of gay 
bashing?  How about gay/lesbian/bisexual people who have lost families over 
this issue.  Don't you think that this hurts?  Don't you think that 
gay/lesbian/bisexual people have the right to live their lives without fear 
and without discrimination?

>>The heterosexual crowd also has
>>the right to say "get it out of my face".

And since the heterosexual orientation is constantly shoved down everyone's 
throat, don't gay/lesbian/bisexual people have the right to say, "get it 
out of our face."

>>I don't inflict my sexual preferences upon the public.  I don't have a rally
>>in the town park to tell the world what my wife and I like to do in the
>>privacy of our own bedroom.  

Neither do gay/lesbian/bisexual people.  Gay pride is a civil rights issue.
You take for granted that you can say, without fear, that you have a wife. 
Try putting the shoe on the other foot for just a moment, if you can.

What if being heterosexual was the minority.  What if you were hated, and 
lived with the fear of being beaten up, fired from your job, denied 
housing, credit, etc., lost your family and even some of your friends, just
because of who you chose to love?  How would you feel?  What if no one 
would recognize your relationship with this woman as valid?  What if, after 
living for many, many years with this woman, building a life and home, 
acquiring possessions, etc., she were to die and her family raced in and 
said, "all these things must have belonged to her and we have claim to 
them."  And they cleaned you out...as you were dealing with your grief of 
having had your loved one die...how would you feel?  Would you think this 
an unjust society?  Would you, could you be pushed enough to fight for you 
own civil rights?

>>Why can't people keep their private lives private, and their sexual practices
>>where they belong -- in the bedroom, and out of public seminars, corporate
>>workplace, or the bored-room (and yes, I misspelled it on purpose)?

If it's o.k. for you to say, in a notes file, that you have a wife, isn't 
it equally o.k. for gay/lesbian/bisexual people to make mention of their
spouse?  Why does this automatically mean that when a gay/lesbian/bisexual 
person mentions their spouse this is equated with pushing their private 
lives and sexual practices into public?  

>>But for those of you who feel that "promoting" your lifestyle is your
>>inalienable right, remember, I'm not "promoting" mine.  

You don't have to promote yours...it is done for you.

In the words of the late Pat Parker...

"Fact is, blatant heterosexuals are all over the place...
And they want gay men and gay women to go hide in the closet...
So, for your straight folks I say sure, I'll go...If you go too..
But I'm polite, so after you."         

Except from Pat Parker's poem,
_For the straight folks, who don't mind gays, but wish they weren't so 
blatant_                      
                                     

    re .29:

    I guess I just assumed that actual sexual practices
    wouldn't be the topic at all, but more generally,
    whom we choose to love.
    
    The phrase "discussing sexual orientation" does not
    automatically equal "discussing sex" in my mind.
    It's interesting that it does to you.

    Maybe the author of the basenote can say for sure what's
    planned for this event in more detail than is given in .0.
    Otherwise, it's just speculation by me and you.

   Roy,

   In every heated discussion things are said that are not relevent, I
   hope.  Why is it that the bedroom, or even what's done in privacy
   now part of the discussion?   This should be about fair housing,
   freedom from assault on the street and balanced lives.  The origional
   posting is about a day to illuminate and debunk sterotypes and myths
   about what Bisexuals, Lesbians, and Gays are and are not.  I doubt
   what goes on in private is even a reasonable topic in that forum.
   Homosexuality is a fact of life, it impacts the way people view
   themselves and are treated by others if it is known.

   Now not to flame and only to simulate some thought consider these
   scenes:

   	A teenager commits suicide when the realization that he is
   	drawn to another teenager of the same sex...  A waste of a life?

   	Two men walking down the street hear insults and have rocks
   	thrown at them...  Why defend them?

   	Two women want to rent an appartment, get turned down as already
   	rented...  It their choice, right?

   	A coworker who is new mentions an weekend trip some where but
   	doesn't ever say the name or give a clue about the other person...
   	It isn't safe?

   Sure I left a lot of the story out but on an average day that's the
   essence of what is in the newspapers of Anytown USA.  In every case
   the loss to society is the same as if it were heterosexuals involved.
   In our society who you are is important and if what you are doesn't
   meet some expected criteria then the who part gets devalued.  It's
   a waste of talent, and lives.

   Peace,
   Allison

    ooooh, I'm _wicked_ confused.
    
    Now, I know a fair number of L/G/B people [_big_ surprise] and I know a
    heck of a lot more het people.  _Most_ of these people don't say a
    helluva lot about what they do in bed ... at least not to me.
    
    I assume that most people I know have sex, or at least have _had_ sex
    at least once.  I _think_ that's a safe assumption.
    
    If someone speaks frequently, with warm and twinkle, about another
    person sometimes I make this _leap_ of reason and assume that perhaps
    there's some attraction or shared experience between the two of them,
    regardless of the sex of the parties involved.  But I still don't know
    fer shure what they do in bed or even _if_ they do ...
    
    since when has sexual orientation been about what you do in bed?
    
    did I miss something?  am I hopelessly out of step?
    
       Annie

    re-.29
    
    rjk, then don't go, all right? You're okay, they're okay. Fine. But,
    there are those people who have not yet "made up their minds" as to their 
    sexual preference, and that's why I support such "outings" (using that 
    word in the strictest sense). I am not gay, however I do believe that 
    there have been many people who have been raised and oppressed into 
    surpressing their sexuality because a segment of our population has deemed 
    certain "lifestyles" as inappropriate, or to quote the first responder,
    "disgusting" "sick" etc. 
    
    What this "Awareness Day" hopes to accomplish is to perhaps let some of 
    these people know that "It's okay...you can *be* the kind of person you were
    born to be", meaning these people could finally, after years of their own 
    sexual supression, make a decision as to their sexuality and sexual 
    preference (s). That's not "flaunting", that's showing understanding
    and human compassion.
    
    

    
>    
>    What occurs in the bedroom?  Sleep.  Rest.  Sex.  What is sexual
>    orientation but someone's orientation on sex?
    
sexual orientation is a great deal more than one's orientation on sex.
It is the human's awareness of his/her sexuality...it is part and
parcel of every part of ourselves - and, at least at the subliminal
level, is an indicator of how we respond to others.  The more we
learn about human sexuality, the more we must realize how heavily
it can affect our thoughts and actions.

>    The base note itself cries out that this will be celebration of
>    the homosexual and lesbain sexual orientation!

I think some of us heterosexuals tend to forget how easy it is for
us to find information about our own sexuality, our own bodies/minds
and the responses to LIFE that we experience.  Awareness days for
"those other" sexual orientations serve a very valuable service in
providing information to people who may feel "different", but who
have been brainwashed into thinking the reality of homosexuality is
SO hideous that they must live a lie - a practice that can only lead
to damage to self and family...or to parents of children who have 
non-heterosexual orientation.  Information like this, and healthy,
happy, REAL people who happen to be other than heterosexual can be
life-saving.
    
>    No, I don't expect to find dirty pictures there.  But you tell me
>    if you honestly think ANYONE's SEXUAL ORIENTATION should be
>    talked about, discussed, on company time, resources, facilities?
    
>Yes.  Peoples lives are ruined by the misconceptions, condemnations,
and outright lies propagated around the subject of sexual orientation.
We have a great need in this society to stop the damage -- we have a
committment as a corporation to support DIVERSITY in the workplace...
this means that we must provide a safe, non-threatening environment
for ALL employees, not just those employees that live like you, read
what you read, and vote like you vote.  The employees who do not
fit into the heterosexual mold need to be able to find others who
can help them survive the stresses and traumas that are unique to
their sexual orientation - and the pressures brought to bear by those
heterosexuals who are unable to separate from the sexual orientation
issue and deal with others as humans, regardless of sexual orientation.
WE heterosexuals don't NEED a heterosexual awareness day because we 
already HAVE the human services we may need in place and WE KNOW WHERE 
TO FIND THEM.  Now, it is the privilege of non-heterosexuals to also
find out what resources are available to them.

    
    Thanks for posting this information, Laurie. I'm looking forward to
    being there!  I can see the value in discussing folks' reactions to
    this event -- that is part of the work of valuing differences, but it
    is not appropriate, in my view, to talk about how some practice or
    other makes you want to vomit (for example).  Talk about your true feelings,
    but please be respectful as you do it.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Justine -- Womannotes Comod

    
re: .1
    
    >>>   Will there be a booth on AIDS?  This is the most disgusting entry
    >>>   I think I've ever seen....and the Valuing Diversity (VD) folks
    >>>   wonder why half the company holds their efforts in contempt.  I
    >>>   wonder of K.O knows about this.
    
    AIDS is a *health issue*. It's something everyone, regardless of their
    sexual orientation, should be concerned with. 
    
    
    Sexual orientation is not just about *sex*. Maybe a better term would
    be "love orientation".  I'm attracted to woman on much more than a
    sexual level. I "fall in love" with women rather than men. I care about
    them and want to share with them in many ways...spiritual,emotional,
    and yes sexual.
    
    I've spent many years working through my own internalized negative
    feelings about my attraction toward women. It has always felt very
    *natural* for me to be with a woman (and not just in a sexual way). I
    tried many years to live a "heterosexual lifestyle" but it didn't work
    for me because I'm not heterosexual. My homosexuality is not a
    "lifestyle" i.e. it's not a choice. It's my natural state, the way I was
    born. 
    
    As many of others in this string have already pointed out,
    heterosexuality is shoved in our faces everyday of our lives. Everyday
    is "heterosexual awareness day". There are thousands upon thousands of
    people in this country who are involved in same sex relationships. 
    It's time that we got recognition also.
    
    .1 and a few of the other replies in this string indicate to me the
    real importance of having such an awareness day. Come picket it if you
    will or argue but I'm not running anywhere or in the least bit scared.
    I'm a good person and I have a lot to offer the world. And I know now
    how wonderful it is to love women. It's *not* disguisting at all!
    I've lived in the closet enough years and I'm not going back into it.
    To tell you the truth I'd rather die!
    
    
    Laurie

    There have been several replies from people who disapprove of the
    activities announced in .0.
    
    So let me cast an opposing vote.  I approve fully.  If my facility is
    doing anything similar, I will probably participate.
    
    I work in a group where management believes that working on
    understanding other people's styles and differences _is_ real work,
    that there are business reasons for doing this.  Besides that, I
    want to learn more about what it feels like to be in other people's
    shoes.
    
    Even the shoes of those who disapprove of .0.  So I'm glad they
    replied, in a way.

    re: .15 (rjk)
    
on "promoting":
    Judging from what I've seen, heard, and felt at other events of this
    sort, this one will definitely "promote" open-mindedness, empathy,
    and fairness.
    
    I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

    
>I acknowledge that there are gays, lesbians, and bisexual people in all walks
>of life.  I imagine I come into contact with them every single day of my life,
>and have no idea that I am.
>...
>Does it affect the way I deal with people I come into
>contact every single day?  Hardly.

But if you don't know who they are, then you don't know whether it affects
the way you deal with people!  Until they're pointed out to me, I probably
don't realize that my own blind spots  exist -- I won't even think about
them.  And until then, they _will_ affect other people around me, probably
in ways I don't realize.
    
    Bob
    

   Laurie,

   If it's at all possible I'll stop by for the early part of lunch time.

   Like you said about .2 notes back, living in a closet is close to
   death.  I can never go back either, there's no place to go to.

   To those that feel strongly against the posting in .0.  No one is
   out to change your mind.  The presenters are asking that for whatever
   views you hold think about them, carefully.  Consider how those views
   may impact yourselves and others.  The Valuing Differences program
   exists to enable people to see difference and understand it as
   completely as possible.  The company is behind this as a policy because
   as business peoples ideas are our investment, and enabling people to 
   express ideas is a way to make the investment pay off.  I'd say the
   company can always use a few good ideas and people brave enough to take
   the risks because they think it will work.

   Peace,
   Allison

    in re .26
    
    Wayne, You'd probably be really be surprised to find out, given
    your reply, just how many of the people who have replied supporting 
    the awareness day are people who prefer opposite sex lifestyles. 
    Sexual oreintation doesn't have much to do with speaking out against
    unfairness and bigotry. I really hope that you have read the rest 
    of the string of replies and have come to some sort of awareness of 
    the fact that this file 'belongs' to people who have compassion/under-
    standing/empathy for a diverse spectrum of people.
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    Wayne,
    
    To be aware of something in this world, be it of a different lifestyle,
    of a divergent set of beliefs, of things relating to style or personal 
    taste, or even of one's preference for partners does *not* mean that one 
    must adopt such things personally.
    
    Achieving awareness of the wide spectrum of humanity, their truimphs as
    well as their foibles, the way they live and think, the way other
    people actually *are* . . . . can be the first step in learning about
    life, about humanity, about the infinitely varied nature of human love,
    perhaps even the first step towards tolerance and acceptance.  
    
    I cherish the B/G/L's in my life in the same manner as the straights:
    Their sexual preference does not matter, the essence of their humanity,
    their achivements, their warmth and love do.  The mechanics of what
    others do in their bedrooms doesn't interest me, as I don't seek the
    approval of others for what goes on in mine.  People are what matter,
    and the beauty of learning tolerance and acceptance in this world is an 
    increased capacity for loving and accepting in this sometimes cold and 
    ugly planet.  

    I just finished reading the responses to the Les/Bi/Gay Awareness Day
    note.  This note really stirred up alot of heat, didn't it.  Maybe
    that's even more of a reason why an Awareness Day is needed.  Learning
    about something you may not agree with can't hurt you....it can only
    enlighten you and maybe help those of us who are more open-minded, to
    understand that everyone is different (thank goodness) and it's not
    your color, height, weight, race, or sexual preference that makes you
    the person you are ..... it's what you are inside and how you treat
    your fellow humans that makes you what you are.
    
    Nancy

    Gad, what horse-puckey.  Will one of you explain to me why the use of
    the male solid waste disposal system as a sexual playground constitutes
    a "life style".  Not to mentioned the very real danger of contracting a
    death-dealing disease.  Better yet, don't bother.
    
    One thing that had always been of morbid interest to me is the amazing
    reaction in any notesfile when one uses the term "immoral".  The tidal
    wave of outrage associated with using that word is really amazing. 
    Must be a hell of a lot of people feeling very guilty out there. 
    
    

    Laurie,
    
    Thanks for posting this note.  Can you describe a little more of what
    will be going on?   Do you know of any similar activities going on at
    other facilities?
    
    To those who have questioned why we need to use Digital resources to
    discuss sexual orientation:  has it occurred to you that it might be 
    beneficial to digital to have this type of forum?  Promoting
    understanding of people with different lifestyles could improve
    relations among employees, leading to a more productive work
    environment.  If l/b/g people feel more comfortable with their
    orientation in the workplace, they could be more productive.  Can you
    imagine what it must be like, how much energy it must take, to feel you
    have to censor your life when interacting with coworkers?  I know I
    don't have the energy for it.  One's personal life may not be directly
    relevant to *work* per se, but it is an important part of building
    relationships, trust, a good working relationship.  I've worked in a
    4 different groups during my 3 1/4 years with DEC, and developing good
    interpersonal relationships has been important to my success.  Often,
    part of developing those relationships is discussing with your boss or
    coworkers weekend activities, vacations, etc.  To be uncomfortable
    doing that would be an impediment.  If you don't want to discuss your
    personal life, fine.  But if you feel that you can't discuss your
    personal life, without fear of backlash, that's another thing entirely.
    
    I also think these events are beneficial to heterosexual people.  I
    feel like I'm taking a risk here, but I'll say it anyway.  I don't
    know, outside this forum, any l/b/g people on a personal level.  I
    actually don't even know *of* any, around me.  And I think that's kind
    of strange, given the sheer numbers of l/b/g people around.  It makes
    me wonder if there's something I'm doing, or saying, that puts people
    off or makes them uncomfortable.  Forums like this are an opportunity
    to learn more about people who are different from me, and to learn
    about myself, and how I behave toward people who are different from me. 
    This can only expand my ability to interact productively with those
    around me.
    
    cheryl

    in re .45
    
    Your terminology doesn't refer to women at all, and from the
    men I've talked to, not a significant number of men either.
    Being gay/lesbian/bi is far, far more, than what you do in privacy
    or who you do it with. But that's been mentioned in this very
    notes string, and you've not bothered to pay attention to the
    answers, so I doubt there is much to be gained by trying to
    continue the discussion with you.
    
    Bonnie

I find it truly immoral to pass judgement on others....particularly when your
bible states quite clearly that to do so is a defiance of "the rules" as
dictated by the Christian religeon.  I believe your God makes it quite clear
that HE decides who is a sinner and why...and the mortals on this planet are
warned against presuming the privilege of that task...something about "judge
not lest ye be judged".  As I understand the game, that means YOU, as the
one passing judgement, are the immoral one and most likely to receive the
full weight of judgement by your God.

Your words are obviously an attempt to inflame and outrage, and not a very
subtle or smart attempt - at that.  It is sufficient to say that you might
consider the wisdom:

	It is better to keep your mouth shut and let them think you are
	a fool than to open it and remove all doubt

>    Gad, what horse-puckey.  Will one of you explain to me why the use of
>    the male solid waste disposal system as a sexual playground constitutes
>    a "life style".  Not to mentioned the very real danger of contracting a
>    death-dealing disease.  Better yet, don't bother.


	Eh?  Will you explain to me why the use of the female infant delivery
	system as a sexual playground constitutes a "life style?"  Not to 
	mention the very real danger of contracting a death-dealing disease.
	Better yet, don't bother.



	*A*

    Friends, inre .45, better yet, don't bother.  A calcified mind is a
    terrible thing, but clearly the author of .45 is not interested in
    anything beyond his own prejudice.
    
    Someone famous once said (paraphrase now) that 'the most important thing
    is to treat others as you would be treated; the rest is commentary.'
    
    More recently, a famous author said 'against stupidity the gods
    themselves contend in vain'.
    
    I tend to combine these sayings into one approach, especially when
    confronted with mouthings like .45
    
    Sara
    

This is what I entered in another conference, some two years ago.
I feel it still applies today.

I have let this go by so far in this string, but may not continue to do so.
As I am sensitive not to put down others for their 
religion/race/sexual_orientation, I expect others to do so as well, 
at *least* while at Digital.

******************************************

Third, and most important, I am very distressed by what gets by in the name
of religion, which is actually oppression.  I do not think that it is 
legitimate for someone to declare at Digital that they think that being
a homosexual (or homosexual sexual activity, etc) is immoral, any more than
if they were to declare that they think that following Judaism is immoral. 
Both, in my opinion, tramp on Valuing Differences.  This is not to say that
they cannot feel that being Jewish, or Muslim, or Gay is against their personal
moral beliefs, but THIS DOES NOT BELONG AT DIGITAL.  They can express this
feeling all they like when they are at home, or at church, etc, but when it is
expressed at work then it begins to be oppressive. 

            Carol

    >Third, and most important, I am very distressed by what gets by in the
    >name of religion, which is actually oppression.  

    	Now come on is this valuing diversity or a blanket trash on
    religion. Just asking. I take your threats seriously. 
		Wayne

>> Third, and most important, I am very distressed by what gets by in the
>> name of religion, which is actually oppression.  

> Now come on is this valuing diversity or a blanket trash on
> religion. Just asking. I take your threats seriously. 

Wayne,

You're committing a logical fallacy. Just because all cows have four legs does
NOT mean that all four legged animals are cows. Just because opression is
committed in the name of religion does NOT mean that all religions are
oppressive. I grant you the sentence above can be read both ways, but I
personally am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

	-- Charles

re: .54, .55

wait a little minnut here....criticising what is done by individuals IN 
THE NAME OF RELIGION has nothing to do with passing judgement ON A 
RELIGION OR RELIGIOUS ROUP.  

Many crimes have, historically, been laid at the altar of one
religion or another, the children's crusade for instance - "in the name of
the Catholic church" - but that does NOT mean that all things Catholic are
deemed hideous.  I also resent that individuals use religion as the excuse
for racism (as is done by many Christians even today - they wave the story 
of HAM in the bible under my nose and say that explains their attitude),
or justification for attempts to oppress/ostracize homosexuals.  I do not
blame the Methodist church or Babtist church, for instance, for these people.
I blame the people USING the religion to excuse their oppressive behavior.  

re: threat?  I don't think a criticism of behavior is a threat...what am
I missing?

    Re. 56 


    >I have let this go by so far in this string, but may not 
    >continue to do so.

    I think this is a threat.....

    >I do not think that it is legitimate for someone to declare at Digital 
    >that they think that being a homosexual (or homosexual sexual 
    >activity, etc) is immoral, any more than if they were to declare that 
    >they think that following Judaism is immoral. Both, in my opinion, tramp 
    >on Valuing Differences.  This is not to say that they cannot feel that 
    >being Jewish, or Muslim, or Gay is against their personal moral beliefs,
    >but THIS DOES NOT BELONG AT DIGITAL.  They can express this feeling all 
    >they like when they are at home, or at church, etc, but when it is
    >expressed at work then it begins to be oppressive. 

    >        Carol


     Anybody ever hear of the 1st amendment to the Constitution. As far as
    I know it is in effect here at Digital. I don't nor should anyone else
    give up their Constitutional rights when they go to work. Nuf said.


    		Wayne

    god.  Sometimes I am *so* embarrassed to be heterosexual.  I hope
    stupidity is not a side-effect.
    
    
    E Grace, who *will* be at Awareness Day, to learn more.
    
    

    
    	First of all, E--don't be embarrassed, you can't answer for *every*
    heterosexual just as I could never answer for every lesbian.  And you 
    don't have to worry about side effects! :-)
    
    
    It was mentioned earlier in this string that the opinion of .1 is the 
    reason that events like the awareness day are needed.  I knew that *4*
    years ago when I helped to form our Gay/Lesbian VoD commitee.  One of
    the issues that we discussed was what to call ourselves.  After *much*
    deliberation; we agreed that _sexual_ preference was out, as that did
    not describe what we were all about.  It is *not* a choice, like
    vanilla or chocolate ice cream--not something that you wake up one 
    morining and decide that from this day forward I will now be gay.  And
    we knew that the main focus was not about sex.  So we decided on
    another designation that made sense to us and encompassed the spectrum
    of alternatives to heterosexuality.  We were hencforth known as the
    Affection Orientation commitee.  (No copyright pending, anyone is free
    to use it!  :-} )  We think that this title took some of the "heat" off
    of us as it removed -sex- from anything related to our commitee and the 
    work that we did.
    
    	Three years ago we did one of the first (if not *the* first)
    Gay/Lesbian presentations in the corporation.  We worked hard to put it
    together and to make it as informative and as -un-threatening as we
    could.  And when it was over, we found that there was only *one*
    negative question asked during the entire two hour panel discussion.  
    Those that attended the presentation gave wonderful feedback and
    positive responses about how *much* they learned and how much more they
    understood just *what* gay/lesbian people had to go through.  I
    remember discussing the possible ramifications with the members of the 
    panel (all of which were DEC employees who were "out" on their jobs and
    proud of themselves and that fact), to which we concluded that if just
    *one* person walked away from the discussion with hir mind changed --
    just a little, then we had succeeded.  We succeeded.  Many times over.
    
    	Laurie, don't even think of getting discouraged by one or two 
    dissenting voices in this file.  They are the minority, and they are
    *not* the people that this upcoming presentation will be reaching.  It
    is the people sitting on the sidelines in silence, just reading and 
    watching for the moment, who will be most affected by what they see and
    hear at your awareness day.  Just remember to keep your goal the same
    as ours was: affect *one* person.  That one person can go out and
    effect *so many* more people that the ripple effect will be felt for
    -years-.  
    
    	Case in point: A *year* after our first presentation, a person from
    the plant came up to one of our committee members.  S/he told us that 
    because of our information that we presented, s/he had *changed hir
    mind* about gays/lesbians!  It didn't happen right away, but over time
    the information sunk in and started to make sense to hir.  Now, s/he
    says that s/he is more comfortable about gays and lesbians and that
    s/he now *stops* other people and corrects them when they make a
    misconception about us!!   THAT is reason enough to do an Awareness
    day!
    
    	Next week I will have been working for DEC for _17_ years.  For the
    last _15_ plus years, I have been *out* of the closet in work.  It has 
    been difficult, but was necessary for myself and my sanity.  I have
    many friends and aquaintences here at work, who like me for myself.  I
    have instructed people over the years just by living the truth and not
    shrouding myself in lies.  But it is not enough.  If I have to stand up
    and tell the stories of prejudice and anger and humiliation for the
    *next* 15 years, then I will do it.  If I affect -one- person for each 
    year, then I feel that I will have done my bit to change the world for
    the better.
    
    	Laurie, where do I sign up??  I'll be there, valuing differences is 
    *everyone's* job.
    
    Hugs,
    
    Debbi 

RE: -a couple

The first amendment does exist, I am one of the strongest supporters of the 
BOR but,,,

  AT DIGITAL YOU MAY NOT EXCERCISE THE FIRST COMPLETELY!!!!!!

It is your choice to work here and Digital's choice to pay you, they have 
rules/policies/standards that are set because they pay for your office space
and your equipment and your salary. This is exactly how free enterprise should 
be run BTW.  

  You are entitled to your opinions and may say what you like outside of
Digital and on your own time. You can set up a soap-box on Boston common and
shout morality or immorality all you want. On Digital property you may not.

The choice is yours, work here and follow policies or work elsewhere
the fact is as Carol(?) stated "this is not allowed at Digital".

Amos

    Wayne
    
    May I add here, to help you understand Carol better, that she is a
    Christian, a member of a church and she married her spouse in a 
    church ceremony. So she is definitely not condeming all religion
    but only the actions of some in the name of religion.
    
    Bonnie

    
    re .57:
    
    I suppose then that it's also my first amendment right to go
    out and tell all our direct competitors about all the new
    secret new technology and products we're working on today.
    
    It'll also rightly get me fired!
    

    Well, I hadn't even thought of going to this thing, due to some heavy
    committments already, but now I just might, thanks to hearing the rather 
    insulting and/or ignorant repsonses of "Mr. Horse-Pucky" and "Mr. I Don't 
    Need to Hear About It". 
    
    I've never considered myself someone to get on a "SOAPBOX" or anything
    like that, but when it comes to issues such as the ones discussed in the 
    replies here, I can't sit idly by. I will attend and learn more about 
    these issues. Maybe I can become more "aware of" and understand the 
    "non-heteros" in *my* life a little better, perhaps, as well. 

re: .1 and others

Again, the voice of Hate calling Love immoral.

And having the moral high-ground doesn't keep it from hurting.
I wonder what will happen when you find out your
have a brother or sister, a son or daughter, a niece or nephew, who
is gay or lesbien -- will you inflict your hate on them too?

Maybe I should pity you, for your childhood scars or your insecurity or 
your inner pain, or whatever it is that makes you
act hateful to your fellow humans (and your Digital colleagues), on
account of our love.

But no, sorry, I reserve my sympathy for the innocent victims of

	Your
		Problem.

    > Anybody ever hear of the 1st amendment to the Constitution. As far as
    >I know it is in effect here at Digital. I don't nor should anyone else
    >give up their Constitutional rights when they go to work. Nuf said.
    
    You are WRONG!  The first amendment of the Constitution does NOT apply
    to information created, maintained and transmitted on Digital-owned
    systems.  Digital owns the resources, and therefore owns the
    information.  You can say what Digital permits you to say, and no more.  
    What Digital permits you to say, and what Digital forbids you from
    saying is detailed in the Policies and Procedures manual.
    
    Besides, the First Amendment of the Constitution *of the USA* hardly
    applies in the scores of countries where Digital-owned systems exist.
    
    Get it straight, Wayne -- this is NOT a democracy.  
    
    					andrew

When I wrote my note (.53), I did not have time to check exactly who it
was who had mentioned religion.  I entered the note as is, since I had stated
that it was a quote from another file.  When I checked today, I found that
no specific mention of religion was made by Wayne, -rjk, or COOKIE::LENNARD.  
They only talked of "immorality" and not the origins of their moral beliefs. 
My mention of religion may have been out of place, therefore.  The rest of the
quote, though, is still applicable, especially as it relates to Digital policy. 

      Carol

    The stifling of dissent by special interest groups has been successful
    for a number of years now but tis a new day. By the way, my speech is
    protected as long as it is not illeagal or breaks my agreement with
    Digital when I hired on (trade secrets etc.). The government has tried
    in the past to keep employees quiet. They lost.
    
    
    
    
    		Wayne

    The true colors of some of the people in this notesfile are finally
    coming out. What you are saying Doug is, anyone participating in this
    notesfile is under threat of firing if a group of people here do not agree
    whit what they are saying. Open discussion is discouraged, different
    points of view are reportable. I think this is dangerous, so I'm out of
    here. 

                                 Color me gone
    				Wayne

	Nope, I'm saying that violating the P & P can get you fired.  You
can say anything you want, so long as you accept the consequences.  If you
insist on excercising your free speech by saying things contrary to DEC
policy, then other people are free to exercise their rights under the same
policy to have you stopped.

	Claiming that all dissent here results in termination threats is
ludicrous.  There's plenty of dissent.  There are, however, limits.  Crossing
them once may cause people to ignore you as a close-minded clod, but repeatedly
crossing the line gives legitimate cause for complaint.

					--Doug

[I will mail this to Wayne, since he has departed.]

    The following reply is from a noter who wishes to remain anonymous
    at this time.
    
    						Ann B.
    						co-mod
***************************************************************************
I have read every reply in this string.  Sometimes I wonder about the 
wisdom of subjecting my heart and my psyche to such hateful diatribes.  

The net result is that my heart is heavy and I feel a great amount of 
grief when I think about the amount of hate that exists, not only in this 
country, but throughout the world.

I'm not even sure what I want to say in placing a reply in this note 
string, nor am I sure if there is a point to be made.

Maybe this place of emptiness, of not knowing what to say, or how to say 
it, has to do with my feeling of hopelessness over the hatred and 
intolerance.  I am starting to feel that there is no way to overcome it, to 
turn things around, to make this country, this world, a better, more 
tolerant and happier place for everyone.

I think about a conversation I had today.  A new person in our group came by 
to do the standard DEC new person one-on-one.  After we went through the 
business stuff, how many years we've been at DEC, what kind of jobs we've 
held, etc., etc., she launched into the personal stuff.  She told me that 
she was married (second time) and had a daughter plus a couple of 
step-children.  She talked about some other personal items, where she 
lived, current problems she was having with a leaky water pump, etc.,etc.

Then she paused in a way that let me know it was my turn to share.  I 
talked about the things that I deemed safe.  I knew that she sensed my 
discomfort.  I knew, as she looked at the gold band on my left hand, that 
she received my unspoken message about the questions she couldn't ask and 
the things I was not yet ready to speak about.  Maybe she walked away 
wondering why I didn't tell her about my husband/wife.  Maybe she assumed 
that I was at the beginning of a painful divorce, and that I just couldn't talk 
about my spouse.

But the truth of the matter is that I don't know this new person in our 
group well enough to know if she is an open-minded compassionate human 
being.  I had no way of knowing if it would have been safe to tell her 
about my recent ceremony of commitment, to tell her about my spouse.  

This society tells me I'm not entitled to a legally married status, but it 
didn't stop me, us, from gathering our friends together last December and
asking them to stand by us as we created the vision and the dreams for our 
life together, for our future as a couple.  And these friends, who are of 
different races, ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientations, offered their 
support and shared in the joy.  

Is this any different than what heterosexual couples ask of their community, 
but that they can ask it without fear and with legal sanction?

I try to hold the image of that evening as we stood in the circle of our 
friends.  I try to hold the feelings and the love.  And I journey in to 
this file, into this society, and I experience battering and abuse.  My 
co-worker, without fear, tells me about her spouse.  I feel the grief in 
feeling too afraid to reciprocate.
 
And then I think about a conversation I had about 15 years ago with a 
woman who worked in a social service agency on Blue Hill Ave. in Roxbury, 
MA.  I was wide-eyed and idealistic about how social change could happen, even 
if it meant effecting change one person at a time.

This African-American woman (who 15 years ago was probably around the age 
that I am now) talked to me about being tired, about giving up, about not 
having any resources left within her to continue fighting for civil rights.  

I didn't understand how she could give up.  I didn't understand how she could 
walk away from her cause.

Fifteen years later and so little change, I now understand the meaning of her 
words and the feelings that must have prompted them.

I don't have a clue how to teach another person to be compassionate.  I 
don't have a clue how to teach another person to be tolerant.  I don't have 
a clue how to change this world.  I am sad and I am scared and I am tired.  

Dear Anon,

I do hope you find strength...most of all, I hope it comes from happiness.  You do not
have to "fight the fight" all your life - and I am not trying to be agist - I really do
think that "the fight" is well served by youthful exhuberance.

At any rate, I hope your personal happiness will bring you strength.

For Everyone,

Seriously, now, I am not trying to be flippant...I must say, though, that we do seem to
get caught up in discussion with closed minds.  On the one hand, it has the very bright
point of letting each other know how we feel with great passion (I do love your passion
in this file).

On the other hand, don't you feel a bit like you're trying to have a discussion with
a raddish?

Barb

RE: -2 (Anon)

Don't give up hope!! A lot of strides have been made in the LesBiGay
movement over the last couple of years. Just look at the state of MAss. for
example. The gay rights bill was passed in 1989 and it looks like it will
be solid for another couple of years. Gov. Weld is very pro-gay and has
hired several gay men and women. The gay pride march here in Ma. just gets
bigger every single year. A woman I know who came out about 25 years ago
was at one of the first pride marche in Boston. She said there were about
200 people there. This year there were 95,000 people there! Lotus (based in
Cambridge,MA.) just changed it's benefits to cover gay couples (this was
on a national level rather than just here in MA). DECpac the LesBiGay
political group at DEC is in the process of trying to get this to happen here
at DEC. I won't be surprised in the least to see this happen over the next 
couple of years!

Besides MA there are 3 other states which have gay rights bills:
Hawaii,Conn. and Wisconsin (which actually had it before Mass. did). Many
cities such as San Francisco and NYC have ordinances which prohibit
discrimination based on sexual orientation. There are several other states
in which LesBiGay rights activists are trying to get gay rights bills
enacted. Activists in Maine for example for trying to get one in that
state. There is also legislation in Wash. D.C. to pass a federal gay rights
bill which would cover all the states. It's probably not too close to
passing but the important thing is that "it's alive". Heck, Rep. Barney
Frank started up the Mass. gay rights bill many years ago (I believe it's
something like 17 years ago!) and it kept getting voted down every year
until 1989. 

So, things are changing. The more people who come out and the more people
who don't put up with homophobic/biphobic things the more things will
change for the better. Even if it's just as simple as writing a letter to a
network that aired a homophobic program. If millions of people do that it
makes a difference. 

The negative remarks made in this notestring haven't phasesd me in the
least. Things like this just make me stronger, more determined  and they
make me fight harder. Some people have trouble accepting
homosexual/bisexual people but they are willing to listen and try to
understand. My parents are in this boat. I've heard both my parents say 
homophobic things before I came out to them. But when it's your own kid, 
someone you love,it's a different story.

Then there are people who are total stones, hard and rigid and think they 
know everything. YOu could talk,yell,scream at them all day and they would 
never understand what you are saying or even care. I say my peace to these 
kinds of people and then that's it. I don't waste time or energy trying to 
educate them. I don't want anything to do with them.

Hugs,
Laurie

    I also must say that several people I've known who have lots of
    discomfort around the subjects of homosexuality and bisexuality are
    feeling this discomfort because they are dealing with their *own*
    homosexual feelings and it scares them to death!
    
    I have a very good friend who I always thought was straight. I came out
    to him and his wife last year and they seemed pretty cool about the
    whole thing. A few weeks ago I was talking to him on the phone and was
    telling him about some women I was interested in and he said he was
    feeling real uncomfortable about this whole thing. Deep down he felt
    that a woman should be with a man but he was also in support of sexual
    freedom. This made me wonder about him. So I asked him if he thought he
    was bisexual (I definately knew he was interested in women) and he
    thought for a moment and then said "yes, I guess I am". So I have some
    books he's going to borrow :-)
    
    Laurie

   .-3 Anon,

   Stay with it, the world despite the noise is getting better if only
   because your here.

   The people that show us intolerence and ignorance teach me about
   love and compassion.  It would be a better world if all my examples
   to live by were good ones but, like the poster said, there is value
   even in a bad example.  I'm lucky, I see others weakness as a reason
   to study mine and grow little.

   Laurie,

   I'll be there even if only for a little while.   

   Peace,
   Allison

    We interupt this note to bring you an important announcement which
    relates to what this string started out to be:
    
    
    IF any of you are planning on coming to the presentation from 2-4,
    Please, PLEASE, send me mail and let me know. The room where it's going
    to be held is small and so I'd like to have a good idea as to how many
    people will be there. No need to sign up to come to the booth from
    12-1. Just show up for that.
    
    Thanks,
    Laurie

    You know, sometimes it's really depressing to think that
    as a society we have made such great technological strides,
    hell, we can put someone on the moon, but we can't accept
    our neighbor because he/she is of a different race, culture,
    religion, sexual orientation...I'm sure there are others, but
    I'm too tired to think or other general examples.  How can
    we be so smart yet so stupid?
    
    Sigh,
    Christine

    
    I think we do far better in the US than any country you care to name,
    (pc conventional wisdom to the contrary..)
    
    

    
    re: .78 
    
    Whether what you say is true or not, it doesn't matter; it's
    irrelevant.  We don't do well enough *here*.  
    
    CQ

.46 (Cheryl)

>>>    Laurie,
    
>>>    Thanks for posting this note.  Can you describe a little more of what
>>>    will be going on?   Do you know of any similar activities going on at
>>>    other facilities?
    
There will be a booth outside the MRO1 cafe from 12-1. We will have several
different pieces of literature for people to take. One handout is an
excerpt from a book called "Beyond Acceptance" which was written by parents
of gay/bi childern. This will list the myths about homosexuality and talk
about them. I gave this book to my parents when I came out to them and I
think it helped them to understand at least a few things. Similarly, there
will be a handout on the myths of bisexuals from a book called "Bi Any
Other Name: Bisexuals Speak Out". If I can remember I'll bring my books in
and have them on display for people to browse through. We'll have other 
handouts too but I just listed those to give you some idea.

We will be handing out black/pink triangle stickers for people to put on
their badges as a show of support. ANd also black/pink triangle buttons.
The black/pink triangles are symbols of LesBiGay pride. These come from
symbols homosexual,bisexual and other people labeled "social deviants" had
to wear during WWII when they were sent to the gas chambers along with
Jewish people. There is a video called "Pink Triangles" which talks about 
this but it's too heavy to show in an environment like this one we'll have 
set up. The Marlboro VoD has a copy of it and I'm sure several other VoD 
locations also have it. It's worth seeing if you have the chance but it
was very painful for me to watch.

We will be showing a 30 minute video too called "On Being Gay". It's the 
type of video you can just watch a few minutes of and get something out of 
it. And we'll be showing "Bugs Bunny goes to Mars"...just kidding ;-)
Denise would kill me >-)

From 2-4 there will be a presentation done by a few speakers from the Boston 
LesBiGay Speakers Bureau. They have about 150 lesbian,bisexual and gay 
members who go all over the place and talk about being gay/bi. They mostly 
talk to heterosexual audiences. They have just recently added "bisexual" to 
their name.

No one is being forced into participating or even paying attention to any
of these activities. If you're not interested in any of this then as the
song says "Walk on by". We've not trying to promote anything or to recruit
anyone. We're not the military. We're simply providing some information and
symbols of one minority and people are free to do what they will with them.

And we're not going to be blasting the building with pictures or videos 
that involve sexual activity so just relax about that. That's against DEC 
policy anyways. 

As far as I know the only other location having an Awareness day on Oct. 11
is PKO (Parker St.). 

I'm looking forward to this day! It's a very freeing experience being out!

Laurie

   I just finished reading through these notes ... I had a class the last two
   days and was unfortunately unable to put my 2 cents worth in before it
   all died down.  I have a few comments.  I think however, some of the
   authors are no longer reading this string of notes.  Thats unfortunate.


   -rjk,
  
     I think it was you who mentioned not pushing heterosexuality down peoples
   throats.  That got me thinking.  The first gay person I worked with, I
   didn't know he was gay.  He was a real nice guy, quiet, we got along great.
   We worked together in an office.  I was dating a girl at the time, and 
   a bunch of us used to go out together a lot.  A girl I knew liked him,
   and, me trying to be nice, always tried to fix him up with her.  I had
   no idea he was gay, so I figured he didn't like her.  Well, I would try
   to fix him up with this girl and that girl, .. I just thought he was
   lonely, and wanted to do something nice.  

     Now that I think about it, ... basically I was pushing heterosexuality
   down his throat.  Much more than any l/b/g person has every done to me,
   or anyone I know.  Now that I think about it, het. people are always 
   trying to fix singles up with so and so.  Its quite commen.


   ****

    In general, I think people have come a long way.  Thirty or fourty years
   ago, I don't think anything like the amount of support shown here would
   ever have happened.  Its nice to see people are supportive and open 
   minded.  From what I read, the vast majority of notes are in support of 
   the event, thats great!

    I think its great that DEC uses its facilities and money to support
   peoples differences, all peoples differences.  

    I also feel everyone is entitled to their opinions, including those that
   are unpopular.  Luckily, those that are popular are not the voices of
   ignorance and bigotry anymore.    

   ****

    I've noticed that because of the mention of "dismissal" and just the total
   amount of flames that Wayne took, he has left.  That to me sounds like
   what would have been the case many years ago, except I suspect it wouldn't
   have been Wayne that would have left.  (example is the first gay note
   put in the single notes file four  years ago)

   
   Good luck Laurie ... it seems some people still need some valuing 
   differences education, but so far, it has helped. 


 
   paul

    re .84, hunting and owning guns is a hobby that you picked by choice. 
    I don't think being bi or gay is a hobby for people, so I don't think
    it's a good comparison.
    
    Lorna
    

hi eagles - good to hear you here again

just as a point of interest.  I seem to remember mail going 'round this site
a few weeks ago about a hunter safety course being offered on the premises 
(after hours, it's true, but it runs a while).  So maybe what a site allows or
encourages is as much dependent on local interest as on DEC policy.  It seems
to me that there are more local folks interested in hunting, and who hunt
locally, up here than in the GMA.  I would guess that if enough folks in the
GMA were interested, they could approach the site mgt about using the facility.
I see it as much the same as CPR courses... and if you want to, go ahead and
go for setting up a booth on the interest of your choice.  I suspect that as
long as it does not (a) violate the O.B., and (b) infringe on anyone's civil
rights (*) it would be allowed, at least if there was enough local interest.

Sara

(*)by this I mean, you are allowed to hold any opinions at all.  You may not
assault anyone, physically or verbally, with those opinions.

    
    I've a serious question based on some earlier notes...
    
    How can I, hetero, married with children, mention them 
    without it being perceived as flaunting?
    
    						Hank

    Mention them. It's not flaunting.
    
    Neither is it flaunting to mention that one is gay or bi.
    
    Ray

    Hank,
      I don't think the vast majority of Gay/Les/Bi's think of talking of
    your kids and home situation as "flaunting".  What is really the issue
    is the sense that it is *not safe* for them/us to do the same.  And
    *that's* the real issue at play here.
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA

   re .84

     Digital does spend money on various activities, ... we have a number
   of tennis courts, softball fields, volleyball courts ... We use computer
   resources for notes files, ... on hunting ... fishing ... etc.

     Digital is NOT providing a soap box for everyone to stand on, 
   its not becomming a battle ground for political opposites, or an 
   advertisement space for hobbies and activities,... its simply 
   promoting a corporate culture of understanding and acceptance of
   all people. Its trying to achieve a better work environment, where 
   everyone can be equal and understood.

    This is most definetly worth the money, floor space and time.

  paul

    
    Egads, what a fuss some of you people are making over this!
    
    Having been to a variety of VoD things (including booths/seminars on
    women, hispanics, blacks, the deaf, etc.) I would expect this one to be
    jsut as informative and professional as the others.  And since i'm
    right across the street, I will probably pop in for a look-see.
    
    	deb

    I think the 11 of october will be fun . not only is it coming out day 
    but my birthday ,so maybe it is my coming out day?
      
    
    
    come join the fun _)-   
    
    JOHN

    Can someone tell me what's wrong with flaunting? (heteros or gays)
    
    I don't think it's wrong to talk about/show off/be proud of something
    that you have or are.
    
    Alice T.

    There is a difference between mentioning a fact when appropriate 
    and mentioning same at every opportunity. It's just a matter of
    taste, I guess. (My sense of propriety and yours are probably very
    different.)
    
    Dana

    This event is sponsored by the Greater Marlboro Area Valuing Diversity
    Committee......This event is being presented as other Valuing Diversity
    Events have been presented in the past....
    
    Denise Hurley
    Greater Marlboro Area Valuing Diversity Committee

    in re .98
    
    
    Does it ever occur to you that your definition of 'normal' is
    at variance with reality?

    RE:  Flaunting

    Many heterosexual people complain that gay people are flaunting their
    orientation if they so much as mention their significant other (SO). 
    What many heterosexual people do not realize is how often in the course
    of everyday life, reference to one's sexual orientation is natural.

    I wear a diamond solitaire and a wedding ring.  I have a picture of Jim
    on my office wall. I will mention during conversation that Jim and I
    did something or went somewhere over the weekend.  I may mention my
    in-laws.  This is all nice and safe and normal for me to do.  No
    heterosexual will likely even notice, unless I do it excessively the
    way a newly wed is "supposed" to do.  And then it is probably considered
    endearing.

    If a homosexual person mentions their date or committed mate, has a
    photo up, talks about a pleasant weekend experience, all things which
    are "normal" for me to say, it is usually considered flaunting their
    sexual orientation.  It can also be dangerous because it makes their
    sexual orientation known, thereby opening the doors for potential
    harassment, bashing, possibly a loss of their job.

    Further, a heterosexual person who dresses in an excessively
    gender-specific manner may be considered a bit out of style or
    inappropriate for business or maybe even a hot ticket by the opposite
    sex.  (Think of women who dress too sexily for an office, men who dress
    too lumberjack, which is a form of sexy dress; both styles accentuate
    gender.)

    If a homosexual person dresses too stylishly for a male or too
    masculinely for a female, they are considered to be flaunting.

    My life flaunts my sexual and gender identity.  I do not hide it, nor
    do I need to hide it because it is the default and considered normal.
    For my brothers and sisters who are homosexual even the slightest hint
    is considered by many people to be flaunting.

    Our culture limits acceptable flaunting to a solely heterosexual context. 
    I think that is cruel, blind, unrealistic, and downright weird.

    I may not be saying this right.  I expect I have offended someone, that
    was not my intention.

    re:-1
    
    >  I may not be saying this right.  I expect I have offended someone, that
    >  was not my intention.
    
    I think you said it exactly right.  Thanks for the reasoned, calm
    discussion.  You have described a very real, very sad truth.
    Thank you.
    
    -jer

    re .100, I think you said it right, too.  Nice note.  I agree.
    
    Lorna
    

    re.100  excellent description!
    
    Throughout my growing up years I knew several [different] same-sex
    couples in the military and the diplomatic service.  Now of course
    these men and women were in direct violation of "The Rules" and risked
    their careers if they publically acknowledged their partners as such.
    
    When my father came home from Cambodia, my mother ran up to him with
    tears in her eyes and hugged him [<--understatement alert] for all the
    world to see. Same with many wives and husbands and the photographers
    had a field day!  Two members of the returning mission had partners
    waiting on the tarmac who had been just as fearful for their safety and
    prayed just a hard for their return as the joyful rest of us -- their
    greetings were _most_ restrained; to have done otherwise would have
    been career-limiting if not outright dangerous.
    
    I thought it was odd and sad at the time; but as the years have passed,
    I grown to understand just how _much_ those restrained greetings must
    have cost those four very loving people.
    
    There's a HUGE gulf between flaunting and hiding.  Just being is not
    flaunting.
    
      Annie

It is common for heterosexuals to think that we don't want them mentioning
their spouses or sexual orientation. 

However, all that I am really looking for is the chance for us to show off 
our wedding rings, or display our family's pictures, or talk about our
weekend together, without having to fear reprisals or avoidance or being told
that we are doing something terrible, like "flaunting".  The times when I have
been bothered by a straight person showing their orientation has been when
another straight people (or often, the same person) has been getting on my case
for showing mine.  If someone who is gay-sensitive (nice about gays) is showing
off their (straight) spouse, and I get upset, it's only because I'm jealous
that other people can't just let me do the same.  :-} 

Love is a wonderful thing.  All of us should be able to experience it, and to
show it. 

         Carol

    
    Thanks for the replies.
    I'm glad I asked.
    
    						regards
    
    							Hank

    Carol. knowing you and knowing what a wonderful family you have, I pray
    for the day when you can do that without fear and moreso, the day when
    it is so common that no onegives it second thought.
    
    Hug and have faith, my friend,
    
    PJ

    Re: .100
    
>   I may not be saying this right.  I expect I have offended someone, that
>   was not my intention.
    
    Actually, it was very well-said.  In fact, you stole the words right 
    out of my keyboard 8-)
    
    --jim
    

    
    
    .103 is one of the most touching notes I've ever read!  Where's that
    "hall of fame note".
    
    Trouble is, I can't find my kleenex and the keys are getting all wet!
    
    	Greg

    Holy smokes...I just entered this as an announcement and it has 108
    replies!
    
    Tonight I sent out confirmations and directions to the folks who
    registered for the presentation on Friday. If you didn't receive any
    mail from me then let me know.
    
    The presentation is open to anyone but if you didn't register we might
    not have extra seats.
    
    Laurie

    BTW, the black and pink triangle buttons are in my office right now
    (MRO1-2/Pole M4). I will leave some out on my desk for people to pick
    up before Friday if they want to.
    
    Laurie

If I kept a journal this would have been in it for October 11, 1991...

I woke up on October 11 feeling both nervous and excited about what would
happen on this day. The past couple of weeks had left me feeling frazzled
and tired. I finally came to realize that some of the stress I had felt the
last couple of weeks was occurring because I was dealing with being
publicly out at work. I was out before but not on such a large scale.  I
had felt a whole range of emotions over the last couple of weeks: anger,
fear, rage, frustration and powerlessness. My intense emotions were like
the different colors on a painter's palette which were being splattered all
over the canvas of my soul in sharp, piercing shapes.

I decided to dress up on this day since for me it was like a holiday of the
heart. I was happy to discover that the business suit I couldn't fit into
early this summer I could now fit into. 

I did manage to get some work done in the morning and received a very nice
and supportive call from E Grace (thanks, I needed that!). Walking down to
the cafe to set up the booth, I felt an inner peace and strength present
within myself. I was like a pioneer who had just climbed a giant mountain
range and was looking down on a whole new valley. I felt as if I had
climbed a great barrier inside myself and for the first time in my life I 
had a good view of my true self. 

The booth was set up in front of the MRO1 library and adjacent to the
lunch-room. It could be seen from some of the tables with a little bit of
effort. We had a bunch of literature for people to take if they wanted. We
had an excerpt from the book called "Beyond Acceptance" about the myths of
homosexuality. We had a similar one about the myths of bisexuality from a
book called "Bi Any Other Name: Bisexuals Speak Out". Denise had a story
she had written about being a lesbian and we had a story from the Boston
Globe about the high suicide rate among gay teenagers. We had many other
pieces of literature also and a few books on hand for people to browse
through. Also, at the booth we had free pink and black triangles buttons
and we showed a film entitled "On Being Gay". 

A few people stopped to see what this was all about and some picked up some
literature and some just continued on their way. We didn't walk up to
people and try to force anything on anybody. Several lesbian,gay and
bisexual and supportive folks stopped by to pick up buttons and show their
support. Many already had buttons on. At one point there were about 10 gay
women standing in front of the booth. It was like P-town in MRO1! No
protesters or disruptive people showed up and we didn't not have sex on the
tables. One gentlemen stopped by and thanked us for having this day. He
didn't take a button or pick up any literature. He was obviously nervous
about being near the table and it must have taken him a lot of courage to
come over and say that. His fear is still imprinted in my mind. 

Later in the afternoon we had two speakers, Robin Ochs and Warren
Blumenfeld, from the Boston Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Speakers Bureau talk
about their lives. There were about sixteen people there. Robin is one of
the founders of the Boston Bisexual Women's Network (BBWN) and is very
active in both the gay and bisexual communities. Her coming out story is in
the book called "Bi Any Other Name: Bisexuals Speak Out". Robin talked
about how she came to realize and accept the fact that she is bisexual. She
went through a period of thinking she was straight and then another period
thinking she was a lesbian before she just accepted the fact that she is
bisexual. Warren is a writer and also co-produced the movie entitled "Pink
Triangles". Warren said he knew he was gay when he was 3 and got labeled as 
a "queer" at an early age. He talked about the pain of going through that 
and how isolated he felt and how he buried himself in his books. 

After the speakers told their coming out stories, several people asked
questions. Then we paired up into twos and did an exercise where we had to
come out to each other. We had to take on both roles: the person coming out
and the person who's finding out. As with the booth, there was no
disruptive behavior and no sex on the tables. 

By the end of the day I still had many buttons and lots of hand outs left
over. But I didn't measure the success of the day on what was left. We had
made a presence in the building and for at least one day out of the year
LesBiGay folks were visible. I know many people as they walked by the booth
knew what it was about but didn't stop to take any hand-outs or buttons.
Whether they didn't care about it or were afraid to be seen at the booth I
don't know for sure. I know I'm out to a lot more people now. 

I felt good when the day was over. I know I've changed as a result of this 
whole thing and my life has taken a new turn down a path I've never been 
before.

I slept well on the night of October 11, 1991. It was the first time in
almost two weeks that I had had a good nights sleep. The noise of hatred
and homophobia from the past couple of weeks that had hammered at my mind
was finally silenced. As I fell asleep, the images of smiling and happy
faces blanketed my senses. 


Laurie

>    No protesters or disruptive people showed up and we didn't not
>    have sex on the tables.                             ----------

    Tch, tch, tch. Don't tell Mr. Lennard.

    
    Thanks for posting that Laurie....
    I was thinking of you "realtime" from here in the UK, and scanning
    the conferences I could get into ;-) for any reports of mass riots ;-)
    ;-)
    
    I'm SO glad it went well for you.
    'gail

    
    I'm also happy that everything went so well for you, Laurie.
    Well done!