Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    I have worked for a wmn mgr., and I must say, it was a pleasant 
    experience.  One of the qualities I observed immediately, was her
    ability to listen.  She had a very hard time with the male workers,
    as it was a change to them.  It seemed any directives from her, the
    male folks jumped up and down and found all kinds of things wrong.
    She also had to deal with all the proverbial put downs a wmn mgr.
    must go through:  such as, "she got the job because she's a wmn."
    "that wmn mgr. is a b!tch".  Well, my feelings are, she was not
    reacting to issues and giving directives any different than the
    previous male mgr.  The male employees had an easier time accepting
    a male mgr. and therefore, labeled her such a label.
    
    She had become very frustrated at one point, but, managed to survive
    the attacks and has since grown in her position.  Now that time has
    gone by, the males are pretty much comfortable with her, but, then,
    there's always the onesy's and twosy's that you still find are
    unhappy in taking directives from a female.  Oh well.  Too bad a
    female has to go through all the crap before the cream....
    
    .02
    Nancy
    
    

    Nancy,
    
    Thank you for sharing that.  I myself have experienced some problems
    with giving directions to men in my department.  I'm not a manager,
    but am in a position where I have to make decisions and instruct
    the workers to follow through.  Doesn't always make for a high
    popularity rating!  It's not fun either, but I know I'm  in the
    job because I do a good job.  If my manager doubts my ability, I'll
    hear it from him.  Until then, you just keep plugging along, trying
    to keep the peace.
    
    Christine

    I've worked for more than one woman manager, and for more than one
    man manager.  There were some good ones and some bad ones in each
    category.  The only conclusion I could come to was that there were
    as many reasons for success or failure as a manager as there were
    individuals involved.  
    
    One woman was hard to describe as anything but a bitch.  She was
    short-tempered, arbitrary, angry, hostile, and appeared to always
    have a hidden agenda.  Of course the two men who worked on the
    same level had the same attitude, so I suspect that *their*
    manager was doing something to promote or cause this attitude.  I
    was only a temp at the time (in another company) and so didn't get
    to observe what might have been going on at the higher levels. 
    
    One woman had the I-made-it-as-a-woman-in-a-man's-world attitude;
    she seemed to think that if we expected things to be any easier,
    we were betraying a weakness that would probably do in our careers
    before too long.  She was not helpful in making long term plans. 
    
    Another woman who created a very nurturing, cooperative, and yet
    efficient group where each person was valued for his or her
    individual contribution to the team effort, where successes and
    failures alike were shared and the attitude was not, "I won and
    you failed," but "How can we get the job done?"  This was, bar
    none, the best group I ever worked in. 
    
    I'm not quite sure this proves anything except that there are good
    and bad women managers of many styles just as there are good and
    bad man managers of many styles.
    
    --bonnie

    The biggest problem that I have had with women managers (and it isn't
    within DEC, but another job I held before) is that this woman was very
    young, very inexperienced, and when I wanted to learn to do what she
    was doing ( I was her assistant at the time) she told me to just shut
    up...she was afraid that I would do her job bette than she would.  It
    became such a problem that I left the company and came here....my
    manager now is a woman, and she is very understanding and quite nice to
    workk for....but the bottom line is that I still think it is easier all
    around to work for men.  I think men have been taught right from the
    start how to be a team player (basebal, football etc) and how to handle
    the responsibility of management better.  Unfortunately. it is still a
    man's world in business, no matter how much we try and change it. 
    And men don't have to fight for the prestige that we may have to, so
    there is a disadvantage from the start.  
    
    Please, NO FLAMES....this is just my .02.
    
    
    Jill
    

re: .4
    
>    I think men have been taught right from the
>    start how to be a team player (basebal, football etc) and how to handle
>    the responsibility of management better.  
    
    Jill,
    
    This did not seem to be a factor with any of the women I have
    worked for, either the good ones or the bad ones.  The good ones
    were even better as team players than the men I've worked for, and
    none of them had trouble with handling the responsibility.  
    
    It will be interesting to see if more people have had your
    experience than have had mine . . .
    
    --bonnie

This looks like a question for some of us "old-timers" :-}

I have been with DEC over 15 years, several companies other than computer
manufacturers before that.

  The whole question that is being asked here bothers me, it seems to be
saying let's find out if there are strong/weak spots so we can argue
about them. It implys that there is some difference.

To set it straight,  I am white/male/old/manager :-}

 I have never seen a *PATTERN* or difference that could be equated to a
manager being female/black/green/male/etc. I have been in positions as
consultant to groups of managers as well as working for many. of those
I observed or worked for; the worst was male-Italian-middle-age second worse
was female-white-middle-age . the best(there are none of these that rate
higher than the others, please infer nothing by order) Black-male-middle-age
white-female-young, white-male-old(er) :-}.

Many others fall close to one end or the other, a lot in the middle.

Worst case of (IMO)harrassment I observed was done by a minority to other
minorities working under his/her supervision

two of the best I ever saw for helping their employees advance/learn/grow
were of opposite sexes and races.  One of the worst I ever observed at
putting-down their employees was a white-woman-middle-aged second worse 
white-male-young.

What I am trying to say, and am *NOT* trying to offend with my descriptions,

*I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS* I think that the measure of managers cannot be
qualified by race/sex/religion/country-of-origin.

Amos

    
    I attended a seminar in Hudson yesterday with Rosalyn Taylor 
    O'Neal, and she did make a mention about the orientation for
    males to be team players (baseball, sports in general) and
    it made sense.  BUT, does not hold true for *all* male mgrs.
    
    It's certainly harder for a female to go up the corporate
    ladder, even today.  My feelings are, any female that has
    made it there has had a rough road and been through it all.
    We have to be twice as good, twice as hard working, twice as
    fair, twice in everything.  DEC seems to have more female
    mgrs. than any other place I worked for, and for that, they
    have my respect.  At times, females *need* the breaks to get
    a foot in the corporate doors.
    
    Nancy  

    Amos,
    
    I am not looking for strong or weak spots just to have anybody
    argue.  As I stated in .0, I'm interested in peoples experiences.
    As Nancy has pointed out in .7, women have traditionally had more
    obstacles in their path than men.  I want to discuss how this may
    or may not affect their management style as a result.  Others have
    said their experiences are such that men are better at it because
    of socialization (team playing), thus if they are more used to it,
    (this last part is my opinion) one may infer that their (men's)
    experiences not being as harrowing, will shape their styles in a
    different manner that a woman's.  What I'm trying to say is that 
    rarely do men and women share the same obstacles along the path of
    corporate advancement and this discussion should hopefully be about
    our experiences with women managers, how we percieve good/from
    bad styles and what we have observed that may contribute to them.
    I hope this clears up you impression that I'm looking for an 
    arguement.
    
    Christine 

    
    in my pre-DEC years, I worked for a woman lawyer.  she was (and
    still is) caring, compassionate, sincere, and genuinely listened
    to my opinions and input.
    
    she was a lesbian.  and the best boss I ever had.
    
    Carla
    

    I have worked for females and males, bar none, the best was a woman.
    
    RE: Carla,  Just a question... are you saying that sexual preference
    has something to do with her being a good manager?  If not, what was
    the reason for the "she was a lesbian" part?  Curiosity only.
    
    AL

    
    I think, IMHO, that Carla has mentioned being a Lesbian, as that
    is just another obstacle a wmn has to bear arms with.  Especially
    if she's "out".  I am a Lesbian and "out", which, has meant to
    me to work three times as hard to be where I am today.  
    
    Carla,
    Correct me if I'm wrong in reading that part into your reply....
    
    Nancy

    
    Al, it had nothing to do with her sexual preference (for the 
    record, it is 'orientation', not 'preference') but with her 
    politics, and how she viewed and valued the people who worked 
    for her.  she was extremely attuned to individualities, in a 
    caring, compassionate way, and we attributed part of this to 
    the struggle she had gone through, as a woman and also as a 
    lesbian, in a male-dominated profession.  plus she is just a
    really cool person.
    
    thanks for asking!
    
    Carla
    

    RE: .6   Thank you Amos.
    
    I'm really a little uneasy with this topic.  Why doesn't anyone ever
    ask "What's it like to work for a man manager?"  Is it because that's
    still the norm and women managers, while more prevalent than in the
    past, are still somewhat rare?  Why is it assumed that every male
    manager will be different because they're individuals while it's
    still OK somehow to talk about women managers as a group with a token
    caveat that they're not all alike. 
    
    Why is it assumed that being socilaized to be "team players" makes men
    better managers?  I've worked in organizations where we had a team
    players up to our ears but they weren't all playing for the same team. 
    And, being a good team player doesn't necessarily equate to being a good
    coach or manager.   
    
    Polly
    

    And being a woman doesn't mean you were never exposed to team
    sports, either.  Field hockey, basketball, lacrosse, even the swim
    team take the same combination of individual effort and team focus
    as the more famous men's sports like football.
    
    --bonnie

    Polly,
    
    I wanted to focus on women because in general, it's still
    a field where we are underrepresented and there are still
    obstacles women face that men do not.  I thought I made it
    clear that I wasn't comparing women to men in management
    roles, but wanted to know how people felt a woman's 
    experience shaped her style and whether or not they had
    trouble with women managers, why, why not, what they liked
    best about them.  It's really not a men vs women issue, or
    at least that wasn't my goal in starting this.  I am asking
    about individual experiences with individual women managers,
    not as a group.  It is not a special group in as much as they
    deserve special considertion, however women managers as a 
    group are set appart from men because they must strive harder
    to attain their goals.  I know, it's not a good generalization,
    but an impression I have.  Forgive me if I am mistaken.
    
    Christine

    I don't think it is good to compare women managers vs men managers.
    People are individuals with individual qualities, there are many women
    who lack tenderness, understanding, and diplomacy and have a hard time
    getting along with peers regardless if they are men or women... there
    are many men in the same situation and that is the way that life is. 
    Not everybody can be a manager, in fact, there is a superabundance of
    managers, (middle level managers). For a person to be a manager has to
    be a good listener,  be very smart, has to know how to handle any
    delicate situation, has to be diplomatic, sincere, cheerful, and
    consistent, has to give clear directions to subordinates, and has to
    follow through on any project or situation that comes along... has to
    gain the trust and respect of all his subordinates...
    All these required a very special person.  I have known wonderful male
    managers, and I have known a few wonderful women managers too, I've had
    a lot of experience with both, men and women and have never had any
    complaints against either.  There are people I like and people I don't,
    but in the professional ground... that does not happen, I treat
    everybody well, I work hard, and if I don't like a person's personality
    I ignore those things, never take anything personal, and I discard what
    I don't like as "something not at the level of that person and should
    be ignored" and... that's it! That would never interfere with my work
    or performance or anything like that. A bad manager can be very mean
    and it can be...man or woman, it depends on their education, their
    upbringing, their happines or unhappines in life...but not because they
    are a MAN or a WOMAN. (Bad manners take root quickly in either gender
    if nothing is done about it...)
    

    re .15
    
    
    Christine,
    
    No, argument, women are still underrepresented in the management
    ranks. I've spent most of my career being one of the few or the only
    woman. So, that's not my issue. I didn't think you were comparing
    womane to men so that's not what I was objecting to.
    
    What -- in my opinion -- you are asking us to do is single out members
    of one "class" of managers (women) describe our experience with them;
    give our opinion of their style and then speculate on what experiences they
    may have had on the way to becoming managers and how those experiences
    effected their style.  To what end?  What can you hope to learn by
    doing this?  How can I *know* what experiences another person had
    before I met them and how those experiences effected that person? 
    (Unless of course, I'm close enough to the person that they've been
    willing to diclose that information to me.) And how can I assume that
    the same experiences will have the same or even a similar effect on
    another woman and her style?
    
    I'm sorry, but I see no benefit to this type of exercise.
    
    Polly

    
    I have worked for 2 female managers and both were just OK.
    I can't really say as I've ever had any really excellent
    managers.  One female manager would have been better if 
    she could have left her moods at the door every day.  She 
    tended to have a disposition which could change instantly.
    
    I would say that women, as a general group, have a few things
    to look out for.  Most of these stem from the fact that in 
    any non-traditional job/role, we run into discrimination at
    some point.  I would say that some women/people then get an
    elitest attitude of "I'm in a non-traditional role and I've 
    had to fight to get here.  I don't think much of women who've
    'taken the easy way out'."  What I mean is that sometimes 
    animosity develops, conscious or not, between say women
    managers and women secretaries.  Most of the complaints that
    I've heard about women managers were from their secretaries. 
    They often felt looked down upon.  Since having a good secretary
    is key to having a good professional image, an adversarial relationship
    here can cause real image problems.
    (of course I think that every professional of any gender should
    be a secretary for one week)
    I think that this elitest attitude also shows up in other ways.
    ie: women who don't wear makeup VS. women who do.  Being an
    engineer who wears makeup, I've heard comments from women who
    don't that I don't "look like and engineer".  Also there's the
    women-who've-been-fighting/working-for-15+-years VS. the 
    woman under 30.  (women under 30 haven't had as many problems)
    
    What all this means is the following.  Getting to be a manager
    takes a lot of honking your own horn.  Praising yourself can only
    be done if you truely think you're good at what you do.  Sometimes
    I think that it's hard to draw the line between being proud of
    who you are and looking down on people who have chosen not to be
    like you.  Since women have to toot their own horn more than
    men do to get a mangerial position, it would then follow that we
    might be more likely to have an ego problem.
    
    Rachael
    
    

    
    Why perform this exercise?
    
    What if people had noticed patterns unique to female managers?
    What if there are pitfalls that other women have fallen into
    that we can avoid?
    What if women are DIFFERENT from men and this uniqueness affects
    our general management style?  Yes women are not all the same, 
    men are not all the same.  This does not change the fact that
    for instance, very few men cry and many women do.  This kind
    of societal conditioning HAS to affect management.  How many
    male politicians cry on TV when they lose?  
    
    We are different from men and until we learn to accept and work
    with those differences, we will stay below that glass ceiling.
    When we realize what makes us, individually and as a group, strong
    then we can reach the goals we've set.
    
    That is why this question NEEDS to be answered.
    
    Rachael
    

    I've been fortunate (and I mean that sincerely) to have worked *mostly*
    for women throughout my career.  This has meant that both the best
    manager I ever had, and the worst, were women.  Most have been
    somewhere in the middle - just like most of the population they are
    drawn from.
    
    As an employee-partner to my supervisor, I've always tried very hard to
    respond first to the individual and then to the role.  For me, this is the
    way I want to be treated, as well.  Look for what I can uniquely
    contribute, and then how that contribution fits into the jigsaw puzzle
    of the work that the group must accomplish.  Those supervisors who can
    provide  the puzzle framework, and then let their team carve out the
    pieces, are the ones I have done the best work for.  But this ability
    doesn't seem to be gender-related.
    
    Alison

    re: men as managers....
    Please feel free to start a topic on men as managers if you wish....
    
    
    My most recent manager at DEC is a woman, an intelligent, listening,
    professional, competent, capable, woman.  I suppose I've kind of
    adopted her in a mentor capacity.  She's been with DEC a long time,
    and is the epitome of ruthless efficiency ;) - she gets things done
    quietly and with due process, and doesn't take garbage from anybody -
    yet she seldom seems agressive.  She is warm and has a great sense of
    humor - she is supportive and she responds to my needs as a writer and
    as an employee.  She directs me not only in my projects, but also helps
    me reach for career goals.   She's the only woman manager I've had, and
    and as such probably sets a dangerous precedent if I have any others in
    my life!
    
    -Jody
     

    Misc. comments about women as managers:
    
    1.  I always felt the skills of motherhood were directly applicable to
    management (budgets, delegation, listening, supervision of tasks,
    "fairness", running meetings, etc...).   
    
    2.  I have found that to try to act like a man in management is deadly
    to effectiveness as a woman manager.  That is, if I were to issue
    orders, or to delegate as a command, or to justify labor allocation
    based on the fact that I am the boss, the "bitch" image will prevail.
    This is very effective for some men, and recognized as a valid
    management techinque - but most women just can't pull it off. What
    passes for strength in a male manager is just plain pushy in a female.
    So - if you are thinking of working for a woman, check the style out.
    While some women are good at the formal authority model, most fail -
    (that is, they cannot get *you* to succeed in your job) - my opinion only. 
    
    
    3.  I feel that being sensitive to employees needs is a good
    motivational method.   This is not because I am nice (even though I
    am), but because it gets more work done in the group if I try to
    understand what makes a worker "tick", and to try to get others in the
    group to work as a team (the whole is greater than the sum of the
    pieces). 
    
    
    Bottom line - you will like working for a woman if you like working in
    the environment she creates - ask those who have worked for this
    particular female before.  
    
    
    -m

	I have worked for male and female managers, good and bad.  For
	the past three job changes I have choosen the job because of the
	manager not the job.  I am a difficult person to manager - tell
	me what you want done not how you want it done - tell me why you
	want something done not just when.

	I think that I have had good managers since 19 April 1983, they
	have all be caring, intelligent, responsible individuals.  And
	the most important thing (I think) is that they all know that
	I choose to work for them because I respected them as human beings
	first and managers second.

	The next level of management is a totally different story.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			The goddess is there if you look with clarity

    
    Madeline,
    
    So, if you're not assertive, how to you let people know what you
    expect of them?  How would you deal with someone who doesn't do
    good work?  Who doesn't even try to do good work?
    
    My guess would be that in case 3 it would be difficult to not
    appear aggessive.  If you said something like "I've noticed that
    your work has fallen off lately.  Is there anything I can do to
    help encourage you?", that could be taken as being wimpy.  Then
    if the person still doesn't perform you might have to say 
    "Unless I can gain an understanding of why you're not working up
    to par, I'm going to have to help you find another job that you'd be
    happier in."  Or is this really the proper way to handle things?
    
    Re: basenote
    
    I've found that Working Women often has really valuable articles
    about women in management.  If you want I could mail you my last
    months copy.
    
    Rachael
    

    The three best managers I've had were women.  Their styles were very
    different from each other.  I didn't notice anything they had in common
    which would differentiate them from men managers, except that I got
    along with them a little more easily. 
    
    I had one very bad woman manager and a number of very bad men managers. 
    And of course I've observed others from a distance.  Bad managers of
    both sexes could be condescending, over-emotional, deceitful,
    sycophantic, etc.  One sex manages badly in soprano and alto, the other
    in tenor and baritone, that's all. 
    
    Hmm, I've never had a bass manager.
    
    Ray

    RE: .19 and .25-Rachel,
    
    Thank you very much for your comments.  I couldn't have said it any
    better myself [that's why I didn't ;-)].  And, add my own curiosity
    due to conversations I've had regarding this matter, I wanted to
    see if there was any interest in generating a discussion in this
    forum.  All the replies have been insightful and I think there is an
    audience here for the topic.  Thank y
    
    RE: Polly
    
    As mentioned above, and for reasons Rachel outlined, I really felt
    that this would be a good place to discuss the topic, and as you
    can see, at least a few others also feel it has some merit.  Thank
    you for your comments.
    
    RE: All
    
    Thank you for sharing your experiences.  Keep 'em coming!
    
    Christine

    re:  .22

    jody,

    You do, indeed, have a wonderful person as a manager.  She is 
    someone I met non-professionally years ago and respected highly.
    I do agree with you that you will have to go some to find another
    like her in your future.  Solve the problem, stay with the same
    manager as long as you continue to grow.

    Too bad Training couldn't set her up to train other managers!

    justme....jacqui

    In August, 1990, the best manager I've ever had moved on.  Drat. 
    I like the suggestions in -1 and -2 (especially -1).
    
    aq
    

    i've got a female boss - she's officially a supervisor, tho she runs
    (budgets, etc) three cost centers.
    
    best boss i ever had (i've had 4 others, all male).
    
    she notices problems before they get bad.
    
    she doesn't get goofy about the beaurocracy.
    
    she doesn't play the game much at all: she does the right thing for
    DEC, and is getting rewarded (slow but sure) for that.  she won't be
    the building manager tomorrow, and i doubt she's *like* to be, but
    she's really, really good to work for.
    
    she knows what we're doing and manages our work based on our
    performance: assigns us jobs we like, of a magnitude we can handle,
    gives us a challenge and pays attention to whether we are handling that
    challenge well.
    
    i think some of this is a direct result of her being female.  most of
    it is a direct result of her being a really neat person.  a lot of it
    is a direct result of her being promoted from within - and therefore
    knowing, understanding, keeping up with, etc, all the technical/
    political/logistical aspects of our jobs.

    re: .31
    
    Yes, Lee, that could be a description of my favorite male manager. 
    Low key, perceptive, honest, and fair.
    
    --bonnie

    re:.25
    
    I did not say I was not assertive - where did you get that?  I have no
    problem disciplining people, nor do I have a problem motivating people.  
    But very few  female managers can adopt the fully "top down,
    give commands, I'm the boss" attitude as a management style and still
    be effective in the long run.
    
    The key here is effectiveness.  
    
    Believe me - I have no trouble being assertive.  I just am not
    "bossy"  [to the people who work for me].  And I know of no woman
    manager who can be effective by using the agressive style.  
    
    
    -m

    I think it's the often subtle distinction between aggressiveness
    and assertiveness showing up here.  
    
    Assertiveness can be done in any style of interaction, whether
    you're a meek nonconfrontational facilitator, a gung-ho team
    player, or a detached analytical type.   Even my very
    traditionally womanly, angel-in-the-house mother is assertive. 
    
    Women can on occasion carry out the aggressive drill-sargeant
    approach.  I had an English professor who made it work.  On her
    wall she had a poster that read, "Yea, though I walk through the
    valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I am the
    meanest son of a bitch in the valley."  And all the other
    professors in the department knew it, too.
    
    But I think Madeline is right that this is much harder for a woman
    to carry off than the other styles.
    
    --bonnie

    
    Madeline,
    
    I apologize if I insulted you.  I was merely restating
    what I understood your sentence, "What passes for strength in 
    men is pushy-ness in women", to mean.  Strength is necessary
    for assertiveness.  How can you be assertive without being
    strong, even in the male sense?  Perhaps the word I should
    have used was "aggressiveness".
    
    In any case, I was not attacking you, merely trying to learn
    more about what you mean in your point #2.
    
    Rachael
    

Since I'm new to this conference, you'll forgive if this gets a bit long.  The
question is certainly a bit complex - if you'll allow the assumption - does
"woman manager" imply traits/abilities that are MOSTLY (that's important) used
by women?

I have to say yes to that both as employee, and, as having managed.

Some of the things I notice are, of course, not unique - even to the point of
being considered "old saws."

I do notice that woman managers will tend to employ:

	o  Focusing Skills - Assessing an individual's/a groups' needs with
	    regard to accomplishing "the work."  Further, focusing on the
	    strengths of individuals as related to the entire teams' ability
	    to work well together while achieving goals (ususally high
	    standard goals).

	o  Listening Skills - From both a professional and personal arena -
	    may be that it's simply more comfortable for women in that we
	    have been well trained to listen.  Now this may sound absurd,
	    but listening is also knowing when to interrupt (please don't
	    say never).  Probably where listening and focusing intercept -
	    it's a matter of keeping folks on track.

	o  Risk Taking - My observation is that women managers are more
	    likely to take moderate risks than male managers - I believe
	    that breeds creativity.  High risk takers come in all sizes,
	    shapes, etc.

	o  Loyalty - This is a great strength to the team, but often a
	    liability to the woman herself.  How many times have you seen
	    women hold themselves back because "they owe .... to my boss"
	    or "they owe .... to their folks."

These are certainly just my own observations of managers that I have had, and,
I like to think, some things I have tried to employ.

The biggest area that women lack is the area of greatest strength and power
for men.  That is in the area of "Godfathers" or mentors as we like to say
here at Digital.  It happens that the person who did the most for my career
was a male - he literally vaulted me ahead compared to other work situations.
He understood competence - MOST IMPORTANTLY - how it could be employed, the
criticality of visibility ("old saw"), and certainly, how the organization
defined team players.  Come to think of it, another BIGGIE to add about what
men do so much better than women is to UNDERSTAND THE ORGANIZATION.  Where
you start to have problems with male managers is when "the organization" 
becomes all they care about (pleasing, placating, etc.).

Hope this has added something of value to the conference.

Barb

P.S.  Hi Nancy - are you hanging in there?  I hear things are rough.

    re: .34
    
    Rachael,
    
    Sorry I overreacted - you are right that strength is required for
    assertiveness, but I wasn't really talking about real strength in men, only 
    what passes for that characteristic in some working situations.  That
    is, if a man yells at a peer or subordinate, or if he makes
    unreasonable demands, or if he "orders" instead of asks, then he is
    perceived as being a "strong" manager.  If a woman tries the same
    managerial tactics.....
    
    
    -m

    I dont think gender immediately allows you to assign such open trait
    characteristics to people. I have worked for both female and male
    managers and everyone of them has been different, in approach,
    character, drive and ability to develop teams and cooperation. I could
    not tell where gender made a noticeable difference. The best of those
    managers was a women, the worst of those managers was a women.
    The best had abilities at fostering cooperation and a desire to do more
    from staff, and also knew how to apportion reward. The best would
    handle crises in a way that maximised my ability to do my job while at
    the same time had concern for my personal well-being.
    
    These traits are characteristic of a good manager, as well as a good
    person, concerned with establishing the best relationship between a
    company, an employee and their customers. If some hang-up gets in the
    way of a manager perceiving her/his goals correctly. Such as a hidden
    agenda, personal greed, a feeling of being in a job they are not really
    equipped to handle (and therefore afraid of others taking it),
    perception or real discrimination destroying the abilty to make change,
    then that person cannot be a good manager. 
    
    In all cases it has been the latter situation rather than any male or
    female characteristics. I have had male bosses ask about my health
    after illness, and I've had female ones do the same. I have had male
    managers unwilling to put my group's case forward to his superiors due
    to sychophancy to higher people. I've had male and female managers so
    unsure of their position that they become inconsistent and let 
    personality colour their reactions. And I've been rewarded and
    encouraged by both. There are as many personalities as people, there
    are probably gender traits that make men suited for some roles and
    women for others, but those traits are only one part of the complex
    make-up of people. It is a combination of traits that determines
    whether someone is a good manager.
    
    The question of whether good female managers have more difficulty in
    being recognised, whether due to personal perception, the old-boy
    network, management perception rigidity in what they feel constitutes
    promotion material, gender bigotry.i.e the ability to make things
    happen upward as well as downward, is another issue. Classically an
    inability to do this is not only ascribed to gender but also to
    profession (scientists and academics are often derided in my country
    for their inability to manage their own causes to the funders and to
    populace at large).
    
    As for team sports making a terribly noticeable difference, I wonder. 
    I consider myself a team player and have played a lot of team sports 
    (as have a lot of women). Team sports can help you understand that
    as a team synergy can occur that helps every individual win. But it is
    not the ONLY place where this idea can be engendered. Tutorial groups,
    drama classes, brownies/girl guides/scouts cubs, common-sense, the first 
    six months of your first job, can all lead you to the conclusion that a
    team approach is the best one to build (sometimes its not, but that
    depends on the circumstance). I have noticed non-team players and team
    players, and do not see a correlation to any particular gender. The
    trouble is the tendency of people to ascribe the traits that made them
    successful and the way they attained them as the model of what
    constitutes perfection. If Manager A received his team skills on the
    hallowed Rugby fields of Eton, then the most suitable candidate for the
    job will be someone who did as well. This kind of bigot only employs
    what they know and if they happen to be male then women wont get a look
    in, but its most likely that someone from a different state college or
    upbringing will also not get a look in.
    
    I think we must also be careful about how we see incumbant female
    managers who have been appointed by males (this is not to say they arnt
    any good). There are people I know
    that would be brilliant managers, they are intelligent, refreshing 
    people who are also self-disciplined good team players. The approaches
    they would take would be different from the current corporate way
    (much like early Apple differs from DEC in style). People in this
    category are both male and female. One was told that she was useless
    despite having the best support attitude I have seen in customer services,
    she has just won an excellence award in Edu. Services (and deserved). Under
    the staid attitude in support, she would never be considered for reward 
    because she didnt fit the dour mould that her superiors imposed. The same
    happens in management, like promoting like, ad-nauseum.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    John
    EIC/Engineering, Sydney
    

    Madeline,
    
    Having seen you in action, I would have to say that you would be an
    ideal manager to work for.  Too bad we're working in different fields. 
    
    
    FWIW to the rest of the community, Madeline helped me make the decision
    to make a major career move even though I wasn't at that time and never
    have worked for her.  This is another valuable asset to a manager,
    listening to people regardless of where they exist in the business as a
    whole, and being able to help an individual focus on what their needs
    are, as well as the business's needs.
    
    Actually I guess this part belongs in the people who make a differenc
    string.  Madeline Thanks, I never managed connect with you after your
    group moved to another building, but I do want you to know you made a
    major difference in my career and gave me the courage to match my
    skill-set to a totally different job.
    
    Meg
    
    PS: say hi to Paul

	I've worked for several women managers in my time. 

	I've had good and bad managers but so far all the women were
	in the good category. My wife has worked for poor women managers
	so I know they exist though. I think that what made the women
	good managers were the same things that made the good male
	managers I had good. They listened before talking. They believed
	that taking care of their people was of major importance. And
	they cared (about their people, about their customer, about doing
	the right thing.) 

	One of the things I think of as key was that all the good managers
	thought of themselves and managers. Not male managers, not female
	managers. Just managers. There was no trying to prove that "women"
	could manage. They just set out to do the best job they could.
	Managers with chips on their shoulder or with "something to prove"
	often let those things get in the way. Attitude is very important
	in a manager.

	Of course something else that is a factor is the managers boss.
	Where a woman is treated as a "token" by her boss she can not
	be as effective. The women managers I've had had the full trust
	and confidence of their boss. They didn't have to fight harder
	then male managers. At DEC having a supportive manager makes a
	big difference for everyone and based on the number of women
	managers and supervisors I've run into in the last few months
	looking for a new job there seems to be a lot of support for
	women moving into management here.

			Alfred

    haven't read the replies..........
    
    I've never had a woman manager. I couldn't care less if my manager is a
    man or woman. There are both good and bad of both sexes. What's the
    difference?
    
    ....Bob
    

    Change in course offerings may affect women becoming managers.  I know
    the reason is totally financial.....but that doesn't lessen the affect
    it may have on women who might otherwise train towards more leadership
    roles... 
    
    Maybe they'll be able to find more course offerings internally, but
    with the expense involved with developing internal courses, I doubt the
    money will be available...
    
    The following is excerpted from mail I received today...

******************************************************************

			TRAINING ANNOUNCEMENT

******************************************************************


    In keeping with cost cutting measures recently instituted across 
    the corporation, (such-and-such-a-group) has  been required to
    reassess the training programs we have scheduled  for the remainder of
    this fiscal year.  This reassessment has  focused particularly on
    Professional Development training, and will  continue to be revisited
    throughout the next few months in all  areas of training; Technical,
    Management, and  Professional  Development.

    The guidelines we have adopted are as follows:

	We will use outside consultants to provide training only
	in the case of Technical Training and only in areas where 
	internal expertise is not available.

	Training that is available through internal sources (e.g. 
	other training groups, internal experts) will continue to 
	be offered in Technical, Professional Development and 
	Management/Supervisory disciplines.

    In addition, we are in the process of restructuring the courses  that
    we provide as well as the methods of training that we make  available
    through our organization.

    As a first step in the reassessment effort, we have been required  to
    cancel the following courses that were scheduled to be offered  during
    the next fiscal quarter;

	Franklin Time Control - all offerings through June '91
	Negotiation in a Technical Environment
	Barriers to Communication for Women
	Career Building for Women

    All of these courses were provided by outside training consultants.

    The following courses will still be offered;

	Understanding the Dynamics of Difference
	Project Management
	Advanced Reading Skills
	Writing for Effect
	Communication/Conflict Resolution	

    These courses are available to us through internal sources.
    In addition, all technical and Management/Supervisory courses which
    were previously scheduled will continue to be offered.