Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Lorenzo,
    
    I think what would make most of us happy would be if men treated us as
    humans first and women second.
    
    It really is not asking all that much, you know.
    
    E Grace

    How would I feel if men paid me no attention at all?
    
    On what level?
    
    Given the current situation I'd feel pretty isolated. After all men are
    a substantial contingent of the population, and a substantial presence
    in the world.  If the pathways to what I seek are effectively in the
    hands of men, then being invisible to them would be a sever handicap.
    
    I'm entirely in favour of "eveyone [going] about their own business",
    but leave off the part where men and women don't even acknowledge each
    other's presence.
    
    In short, what would make me happy would be a world where all people
    were given equal control over their own lives and where people were
    define by themselves [and not as an adjunct to someone else].
    
    
    If, on the other hand you are asking how I would like a world in which
    all men were invisible/nonexistent to me -- well, if it happened
    suddenly, I would be devastated.  I've built up some warm, loving and
    precious realationships with certain men over the years. And there are
    men that provide interest in my life.  The world be be a duller place
    with half of the people invisible.
    
    But, I'm fairly resourceful and resilient.  No doubt I'd adjust.
    
      Annie

    
    Lorenzo,
    
    When I wear makeup, I do so for ME, not because I want attention from 
    men.  What is upsetting to me is that, in our society, unwanted,
    (and yes I do mean unwanted) attention is dangerous.  As women,
    we must be careful how we react to such attention or we will be
    in trouble for encouraging it.  That is the real issue.
    
    I do not wish to be ignored because I am female.  I also do not
    wish to be treated as an object because of any number of physical
    characteristics.   You are missing the whole point.  In certain
    situations, ie: a date, attention is nice/ attention is wanted.
    Driving down the highway or at work attention is scary/ attention
    is unwanted.  When I am ignored on the highway, I am thrilled!
    When, (notice I do not say if), I am ignored in a meeting I am
    less than thrilled.  I want to be treated as a PERSON.  That's it.
    I hope this has made it clearer to you.  I do NOT hate men.  I
    do not hate attention from my husband or from someone who genuinely
    is interested in me but doesn't know I am married.  That attention
    is fine.  I just don't want to be looked at as an appealing side
    of beef.
    
    Rachael

    Lorenzo,
    
    First of all, I am happy.  Being angry and being happy are not mutually
    exclusive.
    
    However, I'd really like it if <some> men stopped assuming that
    everything I do revolves around pleasing/not pleasing; liking/no
    liking them.  Little of what I do is done as a reaction to men.  As for
    having men pay attention to ME.  I'd much prefer that they pay
    attention to ME first and how I look second.  
    
    Yes, I want men in whom I have a sexual/romantic interest to find me
    attractive but I want that attraction to be based on more than the
    physical.  And, I  really don't care if men I'm dealing with in 
    non-romantic/sexual contexts find me attractive or not.
    
    Polly
    contexts to tr

    
    re .0: You mean I'd never have to worry about any *unwanted*
    attention from men ever again?  You mean there would never be
    any threat of rape or assault?  No catcalls, vulgar comments,
    obscene phone calls, or guys staring at my body?  Ever?
    
    Sounds too good to be true.
    

    re.0 Maybe the problem is not attention or lack of it, but 
    _appropriate_ attention. If you are at a business meeting,
    do you want to be admired for your clothes? Or listened to
    for your ideas? Conversely, at a singles function, do you want
    to be treated as a business connection, or a human with 
    social needs?
    
    There is a time and place for each type of attention. I *like*
    looking at women, flirting with them, dating them. etc. But
    I'm here at this job to work and earn my pay. And so are the
    women I come in contact with. Simple.
    
    Dana

    oh, so if we don't take objectifying attention from men, we can't
    have any at all?

    I don't understand the basenote.
    
    
    Is it just *TRYING* to get people huffy?
    
    What a way to leave...
    
    \D/

    
      O.k.!  Now I see the picture much clearer now.  At first the only
    thing I heard was: Men! Men! Men!  It's more of the "problems" you face
    with the men, rather than the men themselves.  We men too, have to face
    some very difficult times with the women also, you know. (just though
    I'd kinda throw that in.).  You know, when I was searching for my
    bride, there was a certain character that I was looking for in a
    "Lady".  I have met some very fine ladies in my days of searching, but
    as soon as they opened their mouth, COMPLETE TURN-OFF. The mouth was
    very foul! I've met young ladies that was only interested in ones
    income, or what you can DO for THEM materialisticly. I have met some
    very foul and cold (attitude) young ladies. I've met some very man-ly
    young ladies, that could play some serious ball (Basketball). There's
    women that have muscles bigger than mine. ETC.  Speaking for myself, I
    prefer a young lady, that's going to be a lady inspite of what she
    chooses as a career. I see women downtown working as police officers,
    which I guess there's nothing wrong with it, depending on the
    individual; but, they look very BULKY the way their dressed, toting a
    piece,and looking like a man. (Please don't get offended).
    
    Women should be women, and still have a career.
    
    Lorenzo
     

Re: .11  <<< Note 993.11 by USRCV1::JEFFERSONL "Have you been tried in the fire?" >>>

> (Please don't get offended).

Too late.

It was an offensive note.

     

    
    Oh me oh my.
    
    I laughed so hard my parasol fell over and my lace hanky is
    now all messy from wiping away the tears of . . . laughter?
    disbelief? sadness?
    
    Sometimes I wonder if I experience momentary time warps, and
    I've just read a note written in 1912.
    
    Carla
    

    I heard an appropriate line recently, I've forgotten where, that "the
    reason <some> men want to put women on pedestals is that it makes it
    easier to look up their skirts."
    
    [Aha - it was on a comedy special; Rita Rudner, I think...]
    
    -b

Bahahahaha!

Lovely, Carla, just perfect!

May I suggest to nobody in particular that women would be ladies more
often if men were gentlemen.  A gentleman treats everyone with respect
and consideration.  He does not demand that others conform to his ideals
or his desires.  This is, of course, the way ladies behave, too.  And it
has nothing to do with X or Y chromosomes; it's common decency and human
courtesy.

But I suppose that's too much to ask...

When it comes to picking mates, I should point out that some of those
"ladies" that weren't ladies may have found that you, Lorenzo, were a
"gentleman" who didn't fit their image of a gentleman.  Comes out about
even in the long haul...

-d

I didn't say I HATE men, nor have I said I want them to ignore women...what I
do want is:

	1) Men treating the women they know as human beings, people who
	   are as important, and worthy of respect, as other men.

	2) Men understanding that, when a women agrees with him to bear
	   children, the process will change her body, her mind, and her
	   life...and making AN ADULT COMMITTMENT to working with her to
	   raise the children to adulthood.  This means making a committment
	   to working through the problems that may arise TOGETHER.  This
	   means NOT GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING KIDS UNTIL HE IS READY TO
	   STICK IT OUT.  This means learning to "keep his pants zipped"
	   when she isn't around.  This also means that women need to
	   make the same adult committment to the continueing process of
	   marriage.  And, if the marriage doesn't work, the man should
	   do some research into exactly how much more it will really
	   cost a woman to maintain her home and children...including
	   the new shoes, clothes, snack foods, movies, dates, pets,
	   toys, bicycles, etc. that children want/need.  Enough with
	   the griping about child support...with the possible exception
	   of the very wealthy, virtually no man is forced by the court
	   to carry HALF the true expense of maintaining a home with 
	   children .vs. maintaining a home for a single person.

	3) Men understanding the amount of work it takes to raise a family
	   and keep a home - and willingly, without having to be pointed
	   like a small child at a task, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for an
	   equal share of the work this entails...especially in raising
	   the children.  This means that men are going to have to demand
	   that corporations respect their need to be fathers - and LET them
	   be fathers AND successful in the corporate world.  It is high
	   time we stopped rewarding the workaholics out there at the
	   expense of the well-balanced human beings.

	4) Men taking equal responsiblity for preventing venereal disease
	   and unwanted pregnancy my wearing condoms WITHOUT COMPLAINING.
	   And, as another aspect of this, men understanding that there
	   are good and sane reasons why women are demanding monagomy -
	   survival.

	5) Men accepting that, until they invent an artificial womb AND
	   a safe, non-invasive procedure to remove the fertilized egg from
	   the woman and implant it in the artificial womb, or figure out 
	   how to make men pregnant for the entire gestation period, the
	   woman is the ONLY ONE who can decide what happens to her body...
	   and it isn't fair or equal, but that reproduction responsibilities
	   aren't fair or equal either....and it is time for other people
	   to STOP trying to dictate to any woman what she does with her
	   body while pregnant or not.

	6) Men accepting that NO means NO, that no answer means NO, and
	   that any time sex happens it is with the full, undrugged 
	   consent of both partners.

	7) Men learning, and teaching each other, that they cannot OWN
	   a woman...that, if she wants to leave, she can leave, that
	   it is never okay to intimidate/threaten/strike a woman...and
	   most important, THAT THE MAN WHO BEATS HIS WIFE/GIRLFRIEND 
	   IS COMMITTING A CRIME JUST AS BAD AS IF HE IS ATTACKING A 
	   STRANGER.  Let the crimes carry equal import in the courts, 
	   and sentences be the same length.

    re.11
    
    Lorenzo,
    
    I support you wholeheartedly in searching for the sort of lady that
    meets your needs  What pleases you in a woman as a woman, a lover, a
    companion, a life partner isn't offensive to me in the least.  That I
    am not such a woman as you describe doesn't mean that she isn't someone
    I can respect. That is a private matter and subject to personal taste
    and proclivity. I wish you both many blessings. 
    
    That is not the anger you are seeing.  It is not what pleases you that
    many might find offensive.
    
    I believe that the offense, the anger, you encounter is a reaction to
    the perception that you expect all woman to conform to this personal
    preference rather than allow them the freedom to be whom they choose to
    be.
    
    If you are not enjoining all women to pattern themselves after the mold
    that pleases you, then you phrasing has been unfortunate; but the
    damage isn't irrevocable.
    
    You've told us what you like.  That was very nice of you even if we
    weren't asking.
    
      Annie

    
    You know, that could be the very reason why some or most of your
    marriages didn't, or don't work, because of your women anger/hang-ups.
      I hate to say so, but many of you probably won't ever get
    married,BECAUSE of the way you are...You need to change your habbits.
    And stop trying to be like your husband/boyfriend/a man...Be a woman!
    Men (some) want women to work with them; not competing against them..BE
    a women: that's what you are!
    
    
    Re:12
    
     Well, I can't do much about that! I said what I said.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    RE .18

    When you're out on a limb, sawing madly away at the branch, it's
    generally better to be on the *truck* side of the cut.

    *******SNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTT!!!!!!*****
    
    like i'm so anxious to impress you!!!  i'll be what ***I**** want to
    be, and if  you don't like it, you can (oh my, i'm just to much of a
    lady to say it, flutter, flutter) go....
    
    i don't care if you don't like it if my muscles are bigger than
    yours...i feel a whole lot better that way (and don't i just notice a
    bit of that Linda Hamilton look in my upper arms!) and i *like* it
    no way am i changing because my appearance doesn't fit someone else's
    idea of the ideal woman ...ain't no way i'm going to look like a model
    from vogue, i'm just not put together that way, and i'm *much* happier
    with the way i look.
    
    i don't care if you like the way i talk...i express myself in whatever
    way i think appropriate.
    
    you know, comments like yours make it that much easier to see how
    ludicrous it is to try to conform to others' ideals...
    
    

    Re: .14
    
    
     You CLOWN!
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    .18
    
    Yow.
    
    Lisa

    	C'mon, Lorenzo - people are going to think we paid you to be a
    	ringer in here (ie, a demonstration of the kinds of archaic
    	attitudes towards women that most people don't believe still 
    	exist.)
    

    
     I didn't want this topic to go this way; but now that we've started,
    I'm having fun. I hope no one takes what I say personal. I just having
    fun.
    
    

    
    	You're a good sport, Lorenzo, for being able to laugh at your
    	own world-class fumbles.
    

    Lorenzo ...
    
    I do believe that you're over-generalising.  I don't in the least want
    to be like my husband or any man.  While I'm not a femme fatale, I've
    lacked for male attention just being myself.  I've been married for a
    good long while [16+ yrs] and while not perfect, whose marriage is, is
    seems to be working out OK.
    
    Many women don't have marriage as a goal.  I know that I didn't. It
    just happened.
    
    I'd _really_ like to work _with_ all the men in my life rather than
    _for_ them. 
    
     Annie

    
    Some things are worse than being without a man, Lorenzo,
    and you appear to be one of them.
    
    You really *do* have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?
    

    
    
    [I just want you all to know that it cost the moderators a pretty penny
    to get LJEFFERSON (whose real name is Laurie, by the way, an a staunch
    feminist as well) to come into womannotes and pull this off, to draw
    energy away from herbnotes.  I hope you all appreciate it.]
    
    D!

    re .19  Beck's still got electricity?  Pull that plug!!  ;^>
    
    That was an adorable saying.  And quite apropo!
    
    Being of a Latin descent myself, I can understand where Lorenzo's
    coming from.  It's so ingrained, so absolute and unquestionable, don't
    even begin.  With all due respect, Lorenzo, (And I do!  Many of the men 
    in my family, whom I love dearly, think along those lines), this is one
    of the reasons I decided early not to marry.  So that I couldn't have
    this, "you won't get married", threat hanging over me.  In my family,
    it was, "you'll marry a g-d grease monkey!"  Actually, Dad, with all
    the shysters out there who've taken my money over the years without
    fixing my car, it's starting to sound like a pretty good idea!  ;^>
    
    Happy Friday!
    
    Sandy

    
      I believe you all are starting to like me now, huh? 8^)
    
    Re: .25
    
     That's cold.
    
    
    
    Re: .27
    
      No. I just know what I am told of my wife, and of my past... No to
    mention the ones who had the chance to know me (How I am).  I think I'm
    a pretty nice guy!
    
    Lorenzo
    

                      
                          

    re .11 & 18
    
    Ahhhh, now I understand.  And, we should let YOU deifne what is means
    to be a WOMAN!!!????
    
    

     >                    -< I know how to get folks started! >-
     >
     >     I believe you all are starting to like me now, huh? 8^)
     
    If your goal is to "get folks started"...stop.  There is a rule against
    trashnotes.
    
    D!, =wn= co-mod

    RE .19 ... for "truck", read "trunk". (I hate tpyos, especially mine.)

    re.33
    
    Michael, dear, ....?
    
      Have a fajita.

    Re: .35
    
      That was not my intention.  The response is what made me respond like
    that.  I mean't no harm.
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    re "truck" instead of "trunk,"  Gee, Paul, I thought it was some
    technical logger type term -- no lie :-)
    
    See how much faith I have that you know what you're talking about?
    
    Justine

Has O. Welles got a machine for you....

Barb

    
    
    re .18
    
    Lorenzo,
    
    You are missing the point.  We are women and we will be what ever we
    want to be while at the same time being a woman.  Why is that so
    difficult for you to understand?
    
    You have an ideal of woman.  This simply does not exist.  Everyone
    wants folks to be a certain way.  We are all individuals.  You and
    your bride are individuals.  
    
    As for reasons why marriages havent worked.  For each marriage to break
    up first there have to be a woman and a man.  The woman and the man
    in the marriage are the reasons why the marriage did not work.  Both
    are equally at fault.  
    
    Alot of women will not get married because they do not need to change
    themselves.  They are perfectly comfortable with themselves.  If you
    can not love someone for who they are then move on.  Only the person
    who wants to change can and will change.  
    
    I am an engineer.  I am a woman in a traditionally male field.  Does
    this mean that I am trying to be like a man. Hell no. It means that
    I have what it takes to have a career with men in a traditionally
    male field.  Truthfully this only matters to my grandfather who
    feels it is his duty to tell every man he meets that I am an engineer.
    I could easily generalize here and say his is being typically male.
    But I feel it is that he is proud of me and wants people to know it.
    
    I don't know of your background.  The world is a much different place
    now then while you were being raised.  Women and men do not have the
    same places as once before.  Unless you accept that you will not
    understand where women are coming from.
    
    Michele

    Well, just to pick a small nit, there don't have to be a *woman* and a
    *man*.
    
    There have to be two individuals who respect and love one another enough
    to accept one another.
    
    Lorenzo, for what it is worth, my marriage didn't work because A: I
    expected my husband to be an adult, and B: he wanted his Mommy.
    
    
    E Grace, *nobody's* Mommy!

    
      I understand completly what you all are saying.  I heard a comedian
    (woman) on Tv lastnight, and she was speaking of her engagement to be
    married; at the same time she was speaking about "women" and how strong
    they are, and how they can be anything they want to be, and that, they
    (women) don't need a man. *I* said to my wife that "She (the comedian)
    don't need to get married, with THAT type of thought in mind". I have
    no argument bout women being who they want to be; but i don't believe
    it should be done "Just to prove a point, and just to say I AM WOMAN".
    I believe if two people decide to share their lives with each other, I
    dn't believe one of the two should try to dominate, or try to SHOW that
    they are more or equal to the other.  You don't have to prove that you
    are a woman to prove that you're a woman... JUST BE ONE.
    
    
    LORENZO
    

    Yes, but what does "JUST BE ONE" entail?
    
    What are the rules to "JUST BEING ONE"?
    
    HRH

Re: .43

I don't think you understand at all.

It's not a matter of "needing a man" or "needing a woman." It's a matter of 
choice, of deciding to enter a long term permanent (or semi-permanent) with
a specific individual.

Bruce

PS - The males who say "I need a woman" usually really that mean they need a 
sexual release or outlet, or that they want a live-in maid/housekeeper.

re:  <<< Note 993.43 by USRCV1::JEFFERSONL "Have you been tried in the fire?" >>>

    
>>    married; at the same time she was speaking about "women" and how strong
>>    they are, and how they can be anything they want to be, and that, they
>>    (women) don't need a man. *I* said to my wife that "She (the comedian)
>>    don't need to get married, with THAT type of thought in mind". I have
>>    no argument bout women being who they want to be; but i don't believe
>>    it should be done "Just to prove a point, and just to say I AM WOMAN".

I have to admit that I don't know what you're trying to say. What do you mean
by THAT type of thought? I firmly believe that women can be anything they
want to be, don't *need* men, etc. I wasn't trying to make a point when I
went to a technical school or took a traditionally male job. I did it because
I want to be independent. I've been supporting myself for a long time and I
can't imagine it being any other way. I got married anyway, not because I
*needed* my husband for anything but because I want to walk through life with
him. I have no idea what you mean by justing "BEING A WOMAN". I can't
help but be one since I was born that way. I'm absolutely positive that
I don't fit your idea of a woman but then I don't much care either.

Jenna

    Re: .44
    
    Being Yourself.  I don't have to try to be me: I am who I am. 
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Lorenzo, the fact that I do not meet your ideal means that I *am* being
    myself.  Trust me on this.
    
    E Grace

    If you haven't written another note since, you delete the note, then
    type REPLY/LAST, and your last reply will be entered into the edit
    buffer again.
    
    E Grace

    you are so good to me E!!!!  Thank you.
    
    
    Christine

    Oh, shucks!
    
    Your welcome.
    
    
    I also meant to say that if you have written another note since the one
    you want to edit, just extract the note you want to edit (to, say,
    ABC.TMP), delete it from the conference, and start all over.  Now when
    you type REPLY, hit the DO key and type INCLUDE ABC.TMP, and your old
    note will be entered for your editing pleasure.
    
    
    *pant**pant*
    
    E Grace

    Or, after extracting your note as ABC.TMP, and deleting it, you
    can enter it with
    
    Notes> REPLY ABC.TMP
    
    and edit it.  (Also, once you have it as a file, you can append other
    files to it, or rename it, or make copies of it, or mail it to your
    friends....  And, you can do this with Other People's notes too.)
    
    						Ann B.

             <<< IKE22::$3$DIA5:[NOTESFILES]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 993.49                 Anger - men = happiness?                    49 of 53
ASABET::RAINEY                                       14 lines  27-AUG-1991 09:54
                             -< I don"t pretend. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    so, Lorenzo, it goes without saying:
    
    I was born a woman.  I don't have to try to be a woman:  I am who I am.
    .
    
    EVEN  if I'm a mother,secretary,construction worker, pilot, police
    officer,nurse,doctor,lawyer,dentist,hygenist,cheerleader,nanny,fire
    person,engineer,student,activist,politician,janitor,footall player,
    field hockey player, WHATEVER!!!!!  REGARDLESS OF FEMININE OR
    MASCULINE QUALITIES ASSOCIATED WITH CERTAIN
    PROFESSIONS/ACTIVITIES/HOBBIES, I DON'T HAVE TRY TO BE A WOMAN, FOR THAT IS
    WHO I AM.
        
    Christine

    Thanks to Ann and E-I did it!

    Reply 993.56 credited Christine's helpers in alphabetical order,
    and not in their order of usefulness.
    
    						Ann B.

    aaaaaaaacccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhh......notes collision!  My note .58 was
    in response to Christine's note .56, which is connected to the shin
    bone, which is connected to the......


    E Grace

    
    Lorenzo - 
    
    I want to HOPE that your base note (as well as .12, .19, and .43) are
    in jest, tongue-in-cheek, just ribbin', etc.
    
    Just be one? By definition, I am a woman, and anything I do makes me
    one, including my stints as a construction worker, (in VERY unappealing
    clothes, I assure you) surveyor, performance engineer in a utility, or
    anything else on my patchwork resume.
    
    To get back to the base topic, would I have been a lot happier in some
    of the (gag) 'non-traditional' jobs if there had been no men?   Net = yes.
    As Ann said, I would have missed out on some very wonderful relationships,
    but I'd adjust. 
    
    Please tell me you're kidding.  I really don't know whether to snort or
    cringe when I read these notes.
    
    Jamd

    .60
    
    Ya' know I really don't care if he's kidding or not because too much of
    what he says is
    
    - hurtful (e.g. the comment re why marriages have failed)
    - despite the extremity, too close to the attitudes that many of have
    experienced and continue to experience.
    
    Polly

    well, as the Prez said to the heckler, isn't it a wonderful country?
    Each of us is entitled to the opinion that best suits us.  Including
    Lorenzo and his wife.
    
    But as for me, it breaks my heart not one whit that I don't meet
    Lorenzo's ideal.
    
    Sara
    

    
     I guarantee you, that, the majority of women that's participating in
    this file CAN'T COOK.  I'm not saying that cooking is what makes a
    woman; but cooking should be one of the basic of a women's common,
    everyday know how. Just in this file alone, there are many of you, that
    can't sew, clean, or (Too lazy to): many of you (women) had just gotten
    to the point where you don't even care about yourself.. You sit around
    and nibble, and nibble until you have grown beyond measure; then you'll
    be one of the first to stand up, and want equal rights and are always
    speaking against the bad that men do. I'm not against women striving
    for a professional career.  I'm against women who are always trying to
    compete with their husbands..."Well, IF he can do it SO CAN I".  "Women
    can do anything we put our minds to", or "What we WANT to do". That is
    a bunch of garbage.  Just be YOURSELF!
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Lorenzo
    
    You've obviously never been to a womannotes party or you'd never
    say the majority of women in this file can't cook. 
    
    and Lorenzo, if I made similar remarks about Black people - saying
    that they can't swim, or were natural athelets but lazy and not
    very bright, or any other racist steryotype, you and other Blacks
    would justifiably be on my case big time and I'd find my self facing
    personnel action if I continued.
    
    Why is it okay for you to make such incredibly sexist remarks?
    
    Bonnie

>>                          -< Here's another laff!!! >-

    Winner for "Best Self-Reviewing Reply Title of the Month".
    
    Ray

Uh, Lorenzo, uh, I'm having trouble saying this nicely.

What do you now how to do besides piss people of and proselytize?
I really try to ignore your ignorant inflammatory remarks, but, this
really bothered me.  What difference does it make whether a person can 
cook or not?   I find your note offensive in the extreme.

Go soak your head.

Ahhh, that's better 8-)
jimc

    re: .63
    
    oh, you're so quaint, telling me what I should and shouldn't be.  Shall
    I sit here and flutter my eyelashes and go "yes sir, yes sir"?
    
    Obviously I can't be myself unless I'm exactly what you tell me I
    should be, right?
    
    Get out of my hair and out of my kitchen, please.  You're making me cry
    and my mascara is running.
    
    -Jody

Lorenzo,

When you get back to your kennel, I hope your mother bites you.

Your remarks are utter nonsense. The contents are not worth a reply. You are 
demeaning, insulting, and rude to both men and women. And you are 100%
wrong. 

You make it easy to understand why some women are anti-male.

Are you deliberately trying to stir things up? 

Bruce

    
    	Well, at least we know now what he meant by "Be Yourself."
    
    	"Be Yourself" == "Be precisely what Lorenzo defines as a woman,
    			    rather than what you choose to be yourself as
    			    a thinking, feeling adult human being."
    

    
    	I was writing it in C, not DCL.  :-)
    

    re .70:  
    
    Suzanne used "double quotes" -- it would've worked in DCL, too.

Well, now that Lorenzo has shown women the way, I'm waiting for him to define 
for me what I have to be or do to be a man.

I can hardly wait! ;-{

Bruce

    Re: .69
    
      Please read note 992.70 & 71
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Lorenzo,
    
    You keep saying "be yourself" but you don't seem to be accepting those 
    who are doing just that!  And that suggests that you have definite and
    limited ideas about what women *should* be, (willing and able to cook
    for one thing), and therefore those who exhibit any contradictions to
    that image must be doing something other than "being themselves".  This
    is as unrealistic as suggesting that a man who isn't making a wad of cash 
    isn't "being himself" because after all, if women are the cooks, then
    men are the breadwinners and if a woman who uses hamburger helper isn't
    really "being herself" than a man who brings home the hamburger helper
    equivalent in a paycheck is just as guilty of failing to reach the
    image.  
    
    Suffice it to say that everyone has ideals for their "significant other" 
    and those who have the most to offer can get their ideals met the easiest 
    and most often.  The rest of us mere mortals spend our lives trying to 
    strike a balance between what we need and what we can put up with - the 
    choices presented us by real people.  Some women who can't cook are simply 
    worth it, in the final analysis.  And some men who might never be able to 
    buy us one carat diamond stud earrings for our birthdays can certainly be 
    worth it, too.  But they won't be worth it to the person who doesn't have 
    to "settle", who doesn't have to "negotiate" in a relaionship.  Perhaps 
    you're one of the lucky ones who can demand and get.  If so, I can 
    understand why you're put off by women who don't seem to understand the 
    kind of bargain you want to strike and who don't seem willing to "do their 
    part" to strike that kind of a bargain.  But what you're missing is
    that they are able to be themselves and find other bargains - deals more
    in keeping with their own goals and desires.  Most of us just want to be 
    ourselves and hope to love and be loved anyway.  And most are doing
    what we believe is a combination of being true to ourselves and being
    attractive to the kinds of people we want to attract.  If what they're
    trying to attract isn't you or men who think like you, it's hardly a
    statement that says they aren't being themselves.  
    
    Women aren't doing these non-traditional kinds of things just as a lark
    or just to make a point.  They're doing them because there have always
    been women who've wanted to but there were barriers, not the least of
    which is attitudes like yours.  With the barriers gone, you aren't
    seeing "new" women or "different" women, you are finally seeing women
    for the first time.  You're finally seeing that women are as diverse as
    men in their interests and desires.  It can be a shock to someone who
    has grown to believe that the expression of womanhood never reached
    beyond the limits imposed anyway.  And if that's the case, you are
    merely finding out that you were wrong and that the image you are
    holding of womanhood, sweet, docile and at the stove, has far less to
    do with the reality of women and far more to do with a societal desire
    to see them that way, and with the societal laws/rules and traditions that
    steer them gently but firmly that way.  You've had the *luxury* of
    believing in your definition of womanhood.  And now you're finding out
    it was far too limiting a definition.  You can blame the women for
    opening your eyes, or you can blame the culture that shut them in the
    first place.                              
     
    Sandy 

    
    Personally, Lorenzo, I prefer a sweetie who doesn't mind when I trounce
    him at Boggle (tm), but thank you for the advise anyway.

    E Grace

Well, I guess I'm not a woman then. I don't cook much, can't sew, I do
clean house if I'm not too tired after working all day and taking the
mandatory bike ride. And gosh, I don't even know how to apply make-up
to my face (should this be a true confession?). I'll be sure to tell my
husband when I get home that I'm not a real woman. 

Jenna

I wonder if it hurts when one's knuckles drag on the ground?

    re.63
    
    Personally, Lorenzo, I don't know a single human that has aged past
    infancy the _can't_ clean.  I know many who won't or don't, but none
    who _can't_.  Even men can clean.
    
    Also, I know few women who _can't_ cook.  I know some who don't like to
    cook and some who love to cook but really shouldn't -- if you get my
    drift -- and a vast multitude that cook with skill-levels ranging from
    mere competence to sheer brilliance.
    
    When you get to sewing, there you've got me.  I know more women who
    don't sew than who do.  Yet while you attribute this to laziness, I
    would attribute it more to the increasing availability of ready-made
    clothing, drapery, rugs, and linens.
    
    I daresay I know, personally, more of the women of =wn= than you; yet
    you profess to be able to guarantee that they are, by and large,
    lacking in traditional womanly arts. I know many women, members of this
    community, are highly skilled in these arts.
    
    I think your contention that the women here don't care about themselves
    is rather circular.  If they didn't much care, they wouldn't be here
    trying to make their lives better.
    
    You're right:  It is to Laugh!
    
      Annie

    Lorenzo
    
    I'd appreciate it if you'd answer my question in note .64
    
    Thankyou
    
    Bonnie

    
    Re: .77 (Not being a "Real" women)
    
    Do you wear "False" finger nails?
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Lorenzo:
    
    I *can* do all the things you say a "real" woman should be able to
    do.  Does that make me a woman?  No?  Does it make me any "less"
    a man?  NO.  Do you criteria have anything to do with being a woman?
    
    				No.
    
    					andrew 

re: .80

>    Re: .77 (Not being a "Real" women)
>    
>    Do you wear "False" finger nails?
    
    
    Why no.
    
    Do you jump to "False" conclusions?
    
    ;)
    
    -Jody
    

re:  <<< Note 993.80 by USRCV1::JEFFERSONL "Have you been tried in the fire?" >>>
    
>>    Do you wear "False" finger nails?
    
I grow my own. I don't wear false anything. In fact I wear as little as
possible.

Jenna

    Gee, I can cook, but hate to clean, I can knit & perl, but
    can't sew, I can use a hammer, a saw, drive a tractor, mow
    the lawn, add oil & windshield washer fluid, change the wiper
    blades, play catch with a kid, teach him/her to ride a horse,
    maintain the pool....
    
    Hmmm, not too many of the above are what a woman (stereotype)
    does.....guess I'm not a woman!
    
    HRH
    

    >> Do you wear false fingernails?
    
    No, and my teeth are mine, too!
    
    HRH

    LYNNE!!!  Would You *STOP* That, Please???!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    guffawguffawguffaw.....
    
    	oh, excuse me......titter titter titter
    
    
    E Grace

    Ha, ha!  I can cook, brilliantly.  I can clean (anyone can, as was
    pointed out), acceptably.  I can sew; I finished a dress just last
    week, and in the height of fashion -- for 1921.
    
    So, by Lorenzo's definition *I* am a real woman and if *I* say something
    is womanly -- it is.  Trust me.
    
    Let's see.  What shall I call womanly first...?
    
    					Ann B.

    
    Lorenzo - 
    
    I'm gonna take this seriously.
    
    {deep breath}
    
    Really.
    
    {deep breath}
    
    
    OK. By innuendo you have hinted at what makes a "good" woman.  So, how
    about a 'fer instance'... WHO fills this bill in your mind.
    
    Please understand, I may laugh.  Goddess knows, I may learn something.
    
    
    Enquirer minds want to know

    re.87
    
    Oooh! let's start with FRP -- that's womanly.  You don't even have to
    be remotely _female_.
    
      Annie
        sewing -- yes, my own designs
        cooking -- yes, with abandon and consummate skill
    	needlework -- _oh_ yes, what a delicious obsession
        cleaning -- well enough
        compete with my husband -- not on you life. I don't want to be a
    	  software engineer [an honourable profession, to be sure, but not
    	  to my taste]

Lorenzo,

I am a damn good cook, and not so foolish as to be falsely modest about
my cooking ability.  Those who tasted my Madras curry at the =wn= bash
will testify that it was good; one, of Indian descent, said it was excellent.

I can clean (house, floor, toilet, car, rug, silver, brass, etc.) at
least as well as any womwn I have ever observed to clean these or
similar things.

I can sew.  I make shirts, slacks, rucksacks, and many other objects.
I can also alter patterns to change the fit of clothing I make.  Sadly,
I don't remember how to knit -- I used to know but have forgotten.

I can even giggle and flutter my eyelashes, although I don't make it a
habit to do either.

I must be a woman, then, right?  Odd, my wife and the two children I
fathered don't think so.  Oh, I see, they must be wrong.

Bahahahahaha!

Blow it out your ear, boy.

-d

    Lorenzo...
    
    Part of me wants to continue to laugh and hit next unseen each time I
    read a note from you, but there's this indignant little voice inside
    that wants out. 
    
    I can cook. The two young men I live with lavish me with praise at 
    every meal, even when it's just dogs and beans. I don't sew, it would
    waste precious time I can spend with these little guys if I were
    sitting on my butt poking holes in my fingers while trying to thread a
    damn needle.  I can clean house, and do so quite often, except when I
    need time to myself, or when the boys and I need time together. And
    then the cleaning sits.  So what?  If the dishes are in the sink in the
    morning, does that really make me less a woman?  Ha!  If you think so
    then you are a fool.  And there are plenty of men and women who would
    agree  with me on that.  Women are *people*, Lorenzo, and people are
    individuals.  And women are wonderful individuals.  Because I don't 
    stereotype myself into cook, maid, and head drill sargeant, I have 
    time for the interests  that are who I am: Mother, lover, singer,
    writer, career person, and much, much more.  I have no problem being
    myself, and though I can't speak for them, it's my belief that the 
    other women in this file don't either.  They ARE who they are and 
    that comes shining through in their notes.  It would be sad if we
    all defined who we are by your narrow and shallow standards.  
    
    You are entitled to your opinion; narrow as *I* think it is, but don't
    try to force-feed it to me!  
    
    Kim

>    Ha, ha!  I can cook, brilliantly.  I can clean (anyone can, as was
>    pointed out), acceptably.  I can sew; I finished a dress just last
>    week, and in the height of fashion -- for 1921.
 
I can cook, brilliantly.  I can clean, acceptably.  I can sew; last year
I made a regimental coat in the height of fashion -- for 1775 (it was for
some fife and drum gigs...).

So, by Lorenzo's definition *I* am a real woman too 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)

--jim

Re: .92

Oops... my reply crossed -d's
[that's what you get when you start a reply then have to put it in the
background to put out some software fires.....]

Tellya what, -d... what say you and me get together and go out for
a night with the girls, huh?  8-)

--jim

Geez, I guess my brother must be a woman. He's a nurse, he cooks, he cleans
he even sews! He changes his kid's diapers, rocks him to sleep, kisses and
hugs him and makes cute little oogy noises. Gosh, our parents must have
gotten us mixed up at birth :-). And I will be eternally grateful that
they let us grow up to be who we wanted to be.

Jenna

Re: .92

Go out, --jim?  Why, pray tell, should we go out?  It's so-o-o annoying
to have all those sexy maitres d' in their tuxes swarming around when
all I want is a quiet opportunity to be catty.  My cats don't like tuxes
anyway.  Let's stay in, instead.

-d

    eagles, 
    
    I can do all the things you ask Jenna if she can do, and by Lorenzo's
    definition I'm a woman.  Will I do?
    
    -d

    Lorenzo is a black man?  That makes it either even funnier, or even
    sadder -- a victim of stereotypes that limited and oppressed, applying
    same to others.
    
    Lorenzo, as I said  before, you are entitled to your preferences, and
    I'm glad for you that you have found a woman who shares them.  What's
    offensive is that you assert that your preferences define some
    ideal reality, quite outside your own small life.  What's laughable is
    that you do it in all seriousness.
    
    What's annoying is that you waste my time in this conference, telling
    me what I need to BE to be happy.  And your prescription is just as
    offensive to me, as being told to go eat watermelon would be to you.
    Almost as annoying as your blind inability to believe that others can
    legitimately believe differently than you.
    
    You gonna answer Bonnie's question, or what?  She has asked twice.  She
    was even polite.
    
    Sara
    
    p.s. can someone post a pointer to Sojourner Truth's "Ain't I a Woman"
    speech?  Lorenzo seems to need to read it, along with several books...
                                                                         

    Re .63

    Hmm. Lorenso seems to be a REAL man. Aggressive, competitive and
    dominant. Just the sort of guy I like.

    Jamie. (Who is an excellent cook BTW)

    Re : 63
    
    Lorenzo,
    
    Quite honestly I am stunned.
    
    a) That anyone still has such archaic narrow-minded views, and
    
    b) That they choose to air them in this conference.
    
    
       Half the reason that I read this conference is that I am 
    interested in womens views on what us men are doing wrong or
    on what we could do better (wrt women).
    
       I for one am striving to remove the old fashioned attitudes
    that prevent *true* equality of men and women.
    
       However, every time I do next unseen, I am either reading 
    some rubbish that you have written, or a reply to your rubbish.
    
       I do *not* read in this conference to listen to the likes of
    you enforcing your narrow-mindedness on everyone. To much time
    has all ready been spent discussing your views. Enough I say !
    Go disappear up your own b*ckside !!!
    >-(
    
    May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits !!!
    #-)  }-)  >-)
    
    Jerome.
    
    PS - Do all men who live on their own (myself included) who do
         their own cooking,cleaning,ironing,washing etc, by your
         definition, become a woman ?!!!  
                               

   > Does your wife share your views ?
    
    I think she's better, otherwise she's be in trouble don't you think?
    8-)
    Oh, and Lorenzo, my wife has a fulltime job, does most of the household
    jobs because she has only a 5 minute travel to work (it takes me 2
    hours one way) and is an excellent cook (like me).
    And if it's necessary I also work in the house.
    
    Charles Mallo

    re .101
    
    I'm not at all stunned.  I recently had a man explain to me ....and
    he's never seen me ..... that I couldn't possibly be feminine because I
    have short hair.  The Lorenzo's of this world are not a particualrly
    scarce commodity.  
    
    Last night as I was doing "womanly" things ....washing the dishes to be
    precise .... I was thinking ..... God knows these "womanly" chores
    don't exactly task that brain ..... that Lorenzo has received far too
    much attention .....think of the energy that could go into more
    fruitful ventures than trying to  make him see the error of his ways,
    which isn't going to happen anyway...so this is my last reply and the
    last time I will read this particular note.
    
    Polly
                                                

    Well, I dunno.  It was nice to see so much liveliness
    and written exchange from everyone.  I give Lorenzo
    credit for waking everyone up....it has been a little,
    er, quiet in here recently...
    
    HRH

    re: my reply 101
    
    Having looked back at my reply I think the word "stunned" is a
    bit strong, I should have put "surprised".  Although with .63
    being so blatant, I think initially I was stunned. 
    
    Having calmed down a bit, and thinking about it, I suppose it is 
    not that surprising that these type of attitudes (re:63) still
    prevail. Its just that I think I'm a bit sheltered from these type
    of men.
    
    I still think Lorenzo would be better off going where the sun don't 
    shine though.
    
    
    Jerome. 

I'm not so sure Lorenzo is for real. I think he may be pulling
a Barber-Mingo....

Kathy

    
    Lorenzo,
    
    May the Goddess Bless and keep you, and I hope, never force you to come
    out of the 1800's in a civilized area.  However, coming from
    homesteading stock where women had better be able to do everything,
    including "womanly" tasks, as well as defend the household, doctor sick
    and wounded, and wield a mean sythe and flail, I find myself sorry for
    someone so ignorant.
    
    I hunt, butcher my own game, garden, freeze and can, troubleshoot
    networks, raise two independent daughters, and oh yes I can cook.  Just
    ask Frank.  His current projects are remodeling and cleaning the house
    and being primary parent at home.  I will definitely have to tell him
    he isn't a man too I, guess.  (He also makes the best lasagne, green
    chili and ministrone in the world, and is learning how to use the
    sewing machine.)  :-P
    
    Meg

    Re .106

    >I'm not so sure Lorenzo is for real. I think he may be pulling
    >a Barber-Mingo....

    You are not suggesting Kathy that he could be attempting to wind us up,
    are you? What a truly shocking idea.

    Jamie.

>    You are not suggesting Kathy that he could be attempting to wind us up,
>    are you? What a truly shocking idea.

Yup, that's what I'm suggesting.

His notes have a light tone that people who hold his written
viewpoints aren't usually able to achieve when speaking to feminists
or lesbians or liberals or [fill_in_the_blank]. (For demonstrations
of the tone his notes are missing, see CHRISTIAN.)

Kathy

re:            <<< Note 993.98 by SMURF::SMURF::BINDER "Sine titulo" >>>
                             -< Viable candidate? >-

>>    eagles, 
    
>>    I can do all the things you ask Jenna if she can do, and by Lorenzo's
>>    definition I'm a woman.  Will I do?
    
Geez eagles, I really wish you hadn't deleted your note. I would really
be interested in what you asked. I HATE when that happens.

Jenna

    Just outta curiosity, if Lorenzo is TRYING to wind us up, what is the
    goal he/she is aiming for?  Even though a lot of folks didnt care for
    Cindi's notes during another phase here, she did eventually explain her
    purpose...so, what's Lorenzo trying to prove (asked with an innocent,
    vacant expression, fluttering eyelashes and slight blush for asking
    such a direct, audatious unladylike question)?
    
    Christine

    
    Lorenzo hasn't answered any of these replies since he
    put in his infamous .63.
    
    I think Lorenzo is *scared* to debate with women - because
    we might *win*, and then he'd have egg all over his face!
    
    Hence, my theory on why he hasn't answered Bonnie's question
    in .64.
    

    Maybe all us "not real women" scared him off! (-;
    
    HRH

It's an insult to Cindi to suggest that Lorenzo is trying to pull 
a BARBER-MINGO.

Bruce

  funny, I always thought being able to 

	o feed yourself
	o provide & repair protective covering
	o ensure a healthy living environment

  were basic survival skills...

  :^)
  Kathy
  

    Re- 
    Barber-Mingo'ing-
    
    On the personal side:
    
    Ouch!
    I am DEFINATELY going to have to pay for that one for a while...
    or as long as I don't get right-sized... whichever is shorter.
    But, I earned it, so ... whaddayagonnado? 
    I'll bend over, I've got a lot of cushioning back there.
    Any more digs?  
       Give em now...I'm waiting...Stiff upper lip and all that.
    
    On the sarcastic side:
    
    Is that a lot like Nicholsing, or Herbing (Sorry Herb)?
    Or like, maybe it is close to Uproaring...but on GP?
   
    On the notal side:
      You know...I almost next unseened my way past this.  Gotta
    be sharp to note in here.  If you aren't, your edges will be
    worn until you are.  Good thing some of it is out of caring.
    
    Cindi 
                                                                

>  <<< Note 993.100 by HOO78C::ANDERSON "Everyone is someone else's weirdo." >>>
>
>    Re .63
>
>    Hmm. Lorenso seems to be a REAL man. Aggressive, competitive and
>    dominant. Just the sort of guy I like.
>
>    Jamie. (Who is an excellent cook BTW)
    
    Alltime classic!  Too bad most noters missed it!!
    
    - Vikas

    
    We just thought Lorenzo would enjoy the surprise more by himself.
    
    						Ann B.

    Gee, this Lorenzo character seems to have generated a bunch of "playing
    battleship" responses.
    
    It's enough to get a normally this-conference-read-only noter to want
    to study his eyes say when he responds to a question like, "How's
    it going?"
    
    Actually, I'd like to do that with a fair number of the incendiary noters
    here.
    
    Sort of like the 4th of July: Wow, NEAT!
    
    Geeez, but I'm glad these aren't the things they're mimicking.....
    
    John H-C                          

	After being offsite for the past 2 weeks with limited network
	access, I just caught up through this note (by reading over
	an inch of 2-sided printout!).

	Lorenzo  -  your notes left me shrieking on my couch!!  Maybe
	            if I had read them online I would have been miffed,
	            but reading them all at once was truly hilarious!

	Annie  -  you deserve the Nobel Peace Prize !

	Ann_B  -  I'm glad to know I am 'in' by virtue of my feminine
	          shooting skills! ;-)

	Hey, Lorenzo, wanna get a shock to your system?
	(get ready...)


	My sweetie recently took me to a fabric store, showed me the 
	material needed to fix my bra, and did it himself!  

	That's all I'll reveal for now... don't want to let your pulse
	rate get too high ;-).
						nancy b.

    To answer your question on what would make a woman happy:
    Yes it is true that most woman look at men and enjoy being looked at by 
    the opposite sex, but as a male explain why it can't stop there?  Men
    are often very direct, which is acceptable in some cases, but very 
    annoying in others.  Most men anger women because they are not ready
    to accept us as individuals but feel we're suppose to cater to their
    egos as well as their needs.  Personally, I'll stop being so easily
    angered by men once they try to understand womens' total being and not
    just what they see externally.  I believe that once both sexes decides
    to understand and accept the others "role", both can be HAPPY!