Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Anon,
     First, you need to understand that you are not at fault for any of
    this!  This is his problem, and you can offer to help him solve it,
    but you cannot solve it for him.  He needs to *want* to change for
    himself, and he needs to admit the problem to want the change.  You
    can help him see the problem, but that is all.
    
     Don't allow his talk of "if only you did this" get to you, it is not,
    again, I repeat, it is not you.
    
     My father is an alcoholic, he has been for as long as I can remember,
    and he will be until the day he dies.  He still does not admit he has
    a problem, it's all *our* fault, the world's fault, etc., etc.  Never
    his. 
    
     I'm glad you are getting help for you, and am glad you have left the
    situation, at least until you see some change.  You need to get your
    strength back, which I'm sure has taken a beating through this.  Only
    when you feel strong enough for you can you try to help him.  Then, you
    can, as you've stated, offer to go with him to counseling and be
    generally supportive of him.  He however, needs to take the next steps.
    He needs to want to do this bad enough to try.  
    
     I don't mean to paint a gloomy picture for you.  He can get treatment
    and he can get better.  It depends on him though.  He's got to want
    this badly.  You can be there for him, but you can't allow him to use
    you for a crutch, so it's a bit of a tightrope, and there are no
    guarantees on the outcome.
    
     If you want someone to talk to, anytime, I'm here.  I hope you have a
    strong support system through this, it's going to be very important to
    you.  I wish you both the best of luck with this.  Take care.
    
    bright blessings,
    -HA

    >What can I do to help him?
    
    Nothing.
    
    >What can I do to help me feel better?
    
    Go to Al-Anon. A lot.  
    
    To elaborate a bit.  You really can't do anything that will help your
    husband. However, you can do a lot to help yourself, in how your react
    to his stuff, but more importantly, in who and what YOU are in all of
    this.
    
    Al-Anon will suggest that you keep the focus on you, and deal with
    changing the only person in the universe you really have any sort of
    chance of changing: yourself.
    
    It has worked for millions of friend and relatives of alcoholics,
    around the world, for over fifty years, and it can work for you.
    Good luck, and my best wishes.
    
    				  	andrew
    
    P.S.  There is a members-only Al-Anon conference on the net. If you are
    interested, contact me for further information.5

    > what to expect
    
    It differs.  So long as he is in denial, don't expect a great deal.
    
    > how to help him
    
    One of the things that keeps coming up [Al-Anon, ACOA, AA] is to allow
    the alcoholic to own hir own life.  Help is in the hands of the
    alcoholic, not in your hands.  You can encourage him to get help, but
    you cannot get it for him -- especially if he does not believe that the
    problem exists.
    
    In getting counselling yourself and taking yourself out of the enabling
    role, you have taken a _very_ significant step toward helping him.  As
    long as you carried the problem as your burden, there was actually a
    _dis_incentive to help himself.
    
    > how to help you feel better
    
    Keep reminding yourself that you are doing your best and the it is a
    VERY GOOD best, too.
    
    When you feel stronger, sit down with yourself and do an inventory
    of priorities and expectations.  Know your own strengths and limits.
    And understand what you can accept and what you cannot.  This is kind
    of tough [ <--- serious understatement alert], but it will help you a
    LOT.
    
    
    Whoever you are, I care. 
    
      Annie
    
    

    
    there are notesfiles for alcoholics and people who love them - please
    contact TPWEST::JOVAN for more information.
    
    -Jody
    

    re -1:
    
    You can contact me as well; I also moderate those files.
    
    					andrew

    You can't do much to help him.  I almost typed in you can't do anything
    to help him, but that's not entirely true.  
    
    You *can* help yourself, put your energy into healing you.  Sometimes, 
    that makes such changes in the ways a couple have of relating that the 
    alcoholic will begin to look at himself and recognize a problem.  There's 
    no guarantee of that.  But *you* can find serenity, and joy.  Come to 
    Al-Anon - it's a lifesaver!
    
    Send mail to Ann Quayle @MKO or xcusme::quayle, or call me at DTN 264
    7570 if you need to talk.  I live in Merrimack, so know a few of the
    local meetings if you want to try it out.
    
    aq
    
                     

    Denial is the catchword with alcoholism.  A practicing alcoholic is so
    full of guilt and shame about his/her drinking that he/she needs to
    deny that drinking is a problem and then blame everyone else for the
    problems they are having, when the root of the problem is alcohol.
    
    You have taken a big step for yourself.  I too agree with the
    suggestion of attending Al-Anon.  Another suggestion is intervention,
    which if done properly can get the practicing alcoholic into treatment. 
    Call a local treatment facility and talk to them about it.  You may
    want to include his boss if his drinking is affecting his work. 
    Also include any other family members that have been hurt by his
    drinking.  If done properly, intervention may raise his "bottom" and
    make him responsive to treatment and then going to the meetings.
    
    Good luck!  My thoughts and prayers are with you.
    
    Karen

      Re  .0
      the following advice is different to all the advice above. I suggest
      therefore that you think twice before you read on. Comments to be read
      1,2,3,4 sequence. then random.
      
>                                                        At which point
>        he becomes belligerent, most often at me since I'm the only one
>        there.
4     If he is unhappy at someone and you are the only one there, don't look
      too far.
                                                                   
>                                             , I didn't want to have sex
>        often enough,
2     So he drank to forget sex, but didn't. People have unmatched appetites,
      not only in sex, but say food. Try keeping up with a glutton in food
      and you will quickly understand how he feels trying to keep his sexual
      appetite down to yours. A rather simplistic example.
      
>                 I left him Friday.
1     You have done the first meaningful thing to help him and yourself. The
      next things are,
      Change your phone, (work and private)
      Change your address.
      Check for any way in which he can contact you and ___change it___
>
>        He was angry for two days, then he started to miss me.
3     We will also miss the alcholol or any medium which saves us facing
      reality.

>                                                                  He called
>        me yesterday and we both cried for four hours on the phone. We both
>        love each other very much.
      A 2 year habit is hard to break.
      
>				      I have asked him for the past year to
>        please go to counseling with me,
      His demand is, have more sex or I will drink, Your demand is, Go to
      counseling. Are you willing to go to counseling for a low (by his
      measurement) sexual appetite.
      
>					      but he was too proud to go, and
>        said no stranger can solve our problems.
      He is right, he feels guilty about always feeling horny not about having
      a drink. The sexual appetite can be increased, have you considered trying
      to increase yours. 
      
>                                                        but I don't want to
>        lose him...
      If you have set conditions then you have already lost him...
      Rgds,
      feel free to mail direct for off line advice

    
    
    Coming from a home where there were two alch. parents the only thing
    you can do is help yourself.  Cut off contact with him until he is
    dry.  That will make him wake up and if he accepts his problem he will
    hopefully get help for it.
    
    It is going to be hard for you especially since there is love there.
    You can not make him change.  Only he is capable of doing that.
    
    Remember  Only you are responsible for your happiness.
    
    Michele

    Anon,
    
    Your story could be mine.  I am also married to an alcoholic.  My
    husband does, however admit his alcoholism, has been to treatment
    numerous times, attends AA, etc.  He is still struggling with his
    disease, and seems unable to maintain any long term sobriety.
    Some may ask, "Well, why do you put up with it?  Why do you stay?",
    as I often ask myself.  My answer is that I do love him and I believe
    there is hope.  He admits he is an alcoholic, tries to work a program,
    and is a very kind, gentle, loving person WHEN he is NOT drinking.
    
    What can you do for him and for yourself?  I can only tell you what
    works for me.  First and foremost--build your own support system
    outside of your relationship with him.  I use Al-anon, friends from
    a counseling group that I attended, and friends from an AA couples
    group that we attend.  As hard as it is, I had to make myself reach
    out and find support for me.  My husband definitely is not in a
    position to offer his support nor can he empathize like my friends
    who have been there can.  Encourage his recovery but put your own
    recovery first!  I got as sick in my behavior as my husband was--it's
    the insanity of this disease, and unfortunately if it isn't arrested
    it does get worse.  I had to decide what it was I wanted from the
    relationship and set some firm boundries.  Again, my husband still
    has relapses but the way that I feel and deal with them is a whole
    lot different since I started my own program of recovery.
    
    In Al-anon they say, "I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and
    I can't cure it, but I can contribute to it."  This is very true
    for me.  I was the world's greatest enabler but it took a long time
    and a lot of counseling(individual, group, and couples), and a lot
    of meetings for me to even look at that.
    
    I know the pain, fear, anger, and hurt that you must be feeling
    and I am sending the biggest hug I can electronically, but please
    find someone (Al-anon, friends, etc.) that can give you hugs in
    person.  It is very scary at first to reach out and talk about it
    but in the long run it is worth every bit of the fear.
    
    Take care of yourself and call the AA Central office (in the phone
    book for your area) to find others who have been through what you
    are going through.
    
    It works if you work it.
    
    You can reach me in E-mail at Elmago::Phuntley.
    
    hugs,
    Pam

    Re: .0
    
      Jesus Christ can and will resolve your's, AND your husband's problem
    if you'll just trust him. Often times when we run into a certain
    situation, that we can't handle: we are subject to make a wrong
    decision, thinking it's right...But if we look to the problem solver
    himself; the creator and maker of our selves, we will find that our
    comforter was always at hand and all we had to do, was to reach out in
    faith, and grab hold of the True Vine of Life. Dr Jesus will make
    everything alright!  He a Wonderful COUNSELOR, The Prince of Peace!
    One who understands! *I* recommend you to Jesus Christ, God's only
    begotten son.
    
    Lorenzo
      

    glad that works for you, Lorenzo, and for anyone else who believes as
    you do.
    
    Sara
    

    Re: .11
    
    For various reasons, some people do not choose to subject thmselves to
    religion, yours or any other.
    
    My case might serve as an example:  I was a believing Christian for
    years; but, after finding that belief in the Christian God was simply
    not satisfying my spiritual needs despite its claim to be the truth and
    the way, I have come to a point in my philosophical journey at which I
    am questioning things.  Having once believed in your God, Lorenzo, I no
    longer do -- and I, for at least one, am somewhat offended by your
    patronizingly wise and saccharinely righteous proselytizing style.
    
    -d

    re .11:

    It would be nice if what you said were more universally true, but
    unfortunately, for most folks, even those who devoutly believe in
    God, and in Jesus Christ as their personal savior, it doesn't work.
    
    God alone -- or, more accurately -- religion alone has a rather poor
    track record when it comes to helping with alcoholism.  AA and Al-Anon
    have somewhat better records.  
    
    Please understand, this isn't a binary choice.  There are many
    practicing Christians in 12-step programs like AA and Al-Anon; they are
    there because AA and Al-Anon work, to help them deal with the
    alcoholism in their lives.  And some of these will attest that their
    religious beliefs weren't enough to help them.  
    
    Likewise, there are surely those whose belief has helped them to face
    the ravages of their affliction.  The numbers lean more towards the
    success of AA and Al-Anon rather than religion.
    
    There are spiritual precepts in both AA and Al-Anon that can complement
    the teachings of various religious groups, including Christianity.  
    
    The primary difference between 12-step programs and religious
    organizations is:  programs like AA and Al-Anon don't specify the
    nature of an individual's belief.  they leave it up to each individual
    to determine the nature of his/her own "Higher Power" -- and there is
    no need for one individual's vision to correspond to any other
    individual.  Each person's personal belief is just that: personal.
    
    					andrew

re: .11 and onward...

    I was raised an agnostic.  Most of my life, people have been trying
    to convince me I am Incomplete without being a member of an organized
    religion.  I have been told I was amoral, immoral, spiritually deficient,
    and worse by strangers, friends, and even relatives by virtue of being
    an agnostic.

    Therefore, it may come as a surprise to hear that I don't find Lorenzo's
    advice offensive, patronizing, demeaning, or saccharinely righteous.
    (And believe me, I can give you examples of any of the above!)  He
    spoke from his experience, and he neither assigned blame or insult, and
    although he spoke with enthusiasm for what he believes in, he did not
    imply that his way was the ONLY way.  There are lots of people who
    recommend their faith to others (which is in itself no worse that
    recommending a good dentist or hairdresser, really) -- I can only wish 
    they were all as considerate.

        Sharon

    
    Well, Well, Well!  Look it here!
    
      You all responded to someone who needed "help"; and YOUR suggestion
    was to AA counceling ETC., *I* recommended Jesus and everyone comes
    against it!  Maybe the reason you weren't spiritually fulfilled, was
    that either you had your faith in the wrong place, or you were involved
    in the wrong thing... In other words "you weren't a TRUE BELIEVER";
    because if you were, you would have not fallen away.
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Religion is a sensitive subject for many people. Can we accept that
    people have different faiths and get back to the topic?
    
    Thank you
    manisha - comoderator

    Please re-read my reply.  I did not counsel against religion.  I
    simply stated that the success rate of religion in its battle
    against alcoholism was not very high; the success rate of AA and
    Al-Anon is higher.  
    
    People in AA and Al-Anon can (and often do)  have strong ties with
    organized religious organizations -- based on their individual,
    personal beliefs.
    
    One thing I must take issue with: it's the contention that an alcoholic
    has somehow "fallen."  Alcoholism is not a punishment for moral
    turpitude.  Alcoholism is an affliction that strikes across the entire
    moral spectrum, without exception.  It is totally amoral.
    And a strong religious belief will not protect you from alcoholism.
    
    					andrew

I didn't find Lorenzos first note offensive (although the second left 
something to be desired.) He was stating what worked for him.

And as Andrew said, belief in Christain dieties is not at all contrary
to AA - in fact, maybe a Christain would find AA's program easier to
stomach than those of us for whom the term "higher power" generates all
sort of knee-jerk oh-not-that responses (like myself.)  As a matter of
fact, if you just replace instances of "God" and "Jesus" in his post
with "Higher Power", it read just like something out of one of those
12-step meditation books, y'know?

Fortunately or unfortunately, some of us don't believe in Christain
dieties, and so the advice, while well-intentioned, is off the mark.

D!

    you make two assumptions, Lorenzo, that I cannot agree with.
    
    first, that all roots are in Christianity (a common error, even here
    in the U.S. where freedom of religion is guaranteed to all) -- mine
    are not, so I can hardly be characterized as having "fallen away".
    
    second, that I argue against finding spiritual fullfillment, and
    solution to problems, in Jesus.  Though I do not share your belief, I
    honor all those who honestly seek a way to faith, to a spiritual path
    that gives the peace and comfort and knowledge sought by all humans. (I
    believe it to be an innate drive.)
    
    I *do* argue against peddlers of faith for a donation, or a per-course
    fee but where the need for courses for $$ seems to have no end; I
    cannot name the organizations I have in mind (I think it would violate
    DEC policy) but I assure you, most Christian denominations do not fall
    into the category.
    
    I only say that your posting seemed to assert a universality that I do
    not agree with, though I agree that it is a path of beauty and joy,
    that works, for many.
    
    Sara

    Al Anon may not work if the person is an athiest.  I went to an
    Al Anon meeting with a friend and was shocked at the blatant plug
    at *God*...meaning any higher being.
    
    I'm not sure Al Anon can work for an athiest because of their
    dependance on *some* higher power.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.
    
    
    p.s.  I found out later that that particular group wasn't a partial
    one for religions and my friend did find one that worked well for
    her and her religion.
    
    
                                        L.J.  Again!  ;^)

    Ooops, that's impartial...my apologies.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

    Re: .20
    
       First of all, we must define the true meaning of christianity. There
    are many denominations, that have their own individual doctrine and are
    NOT submiting themselves to the righteousness of Almighty God. I don't
    agree with many forms and formalities that are in (as we know it), The
    Church. Jesus Christ himself came against Religion traditions; but *I*
    don't allow that to separate me from the Love that God has showed
    toward me and those that TRUST & BELIEVE in his "word" (Jesus), and DO
    according to what his word says do: YOU CAN'T GO WRONG (I don't care
    who you are!). Christianity means to be like Christ; to have the same
    LIFE STYLE that he had, and that is to keep Jah's commandments. So if
    there someone that has a drinking problem, Jah is able. If your
    marriage is bad or going bad, Jah created marriages and he is able to
    fix them. If you need PEACE, and not confusion The almighty creator is
    able to do all things, BUT fail...If serving Jah (God), and there is
    only one God and 1 way, and Jesus Christ is that way; (as I was
    saying), If serving Jah did noy work for you, I think YOU should check
    your foundation to find what you were standing on.. If your foundation
    was being in a perfect church, then you have to go back to the basic,
    (That is if you want to please God). When the word was sowed, what kind
    of turf did you have? Rocks or thorns? Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!
    
    Lorenzo
    

Ho hum. Obviously someone who didn't read "Women's Reality". 

*snap*

    Lorenzo,
    
    May I suggest that if you wish to discuss this issue further that
    you start a new topic and not rathole this note?
    
    Bonnie

Re: .23

I don't know where YOU'RE coming from, Lorenzo, but you gotta realize one
thing: when you start in on the Christian preaching, you can inadvertently
start playing back a lot of "old tapes" in people's minds.  As a result,
what you say isn't always what people hear.  Some people read your notes
and think of the Jesus-head with the beatific smile and not two brain cells
to rub together ("It's okay, Jesus will take care of EVERYTHING!").  Others
read your notes and think of the neighborhood busybodies who derive an almost
sadistic, orgasmic pleasure out of being able to deny pleasure to others ("I
SEE what you're doing, GOD sees what you're doing, and you're GOING TO GO
TO HELL!!!").  Still others think of the Jim Bakker-type charlatans who
preach morality and chastity and poverty while living in utter decadence
themselves.  Still others feel their knuckles smarting in memory of the
Catholic-school nuns who tried to beat the sin out of them...

None of these may have anything to do with what YOU'RE trying to say, but
they unfortunately get bundled in in a lot of people's minds. In short, your 
presentation can inadvertently interfere with your message.  If you want
your message to get across, you have to be aware of this.  Simply shouting
your message louder is going to have the opposite effect of what you intend.

As for me... I hedge my bets.  I change my personal saviour on average
about every half-hour or so.  This morning I worship at the shrine of
the holy Espresso machine 8-).  Last week, when a horrible software kludge
saved the day, it was Saint Ruben of Goldberg.  And at lunch today I'm
going to take a pilgrimage to the Fount of Kimball, lord of frozen
confections.  Best Rapture I've ever had, I can have it anytime I want,
and I don't hafta wait for no stinkin' Armageddon to get it 8-) 8-) 8-)

--jim

    
    
    This note is for the discussion of alcoholism, not religion or faith.
    I agree with a point Lorenzo made a while back - that other folks felt
    free to offer advice about how to deal with this, and he talked about
    what works for him and offered the idea to others.  That point being
    made, it is now time to move on.  I will move any further discussion of
    religion, etc. to the rathole.  I'd appreciate it if folks would just
    take the discussion there themselves.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Justine -- Womannotes Comod

    I don't do god, jesus, buddha, confucious, or dale carnegie.  I have
    used (at least some of) the 12 steps in order to not drink for the past
    10 years, not smoke for 8 and live with various kinds of addicts whom I
    love.  In AA they say, "Take what you like and leave the rest."  One can 
    do AA or AlAnon any way that works, as a religious fanatic, agnostic or 
    atheist, or complete non-subscriber.
    
    Nancy   

    
    Re: .29
    
    That long, ay? :-)
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    Dear anonymous basenoter,
    
    I've been wondering how you are.  I hope you've been able to get some
    useful information from this note even though we've gone astray a bit.
    
    Justine - the noter

    Sometimes I wonder if there is any long term hope for people with
    addictive behaviors and a proclivity for chemicals.  Then I remember
    the success of some of my fellow noters and say, yeah, it can happen,
    but, it ain't easy and it really is one day at a time for the rest of
    your days. 
    
    By way of explanation _ I have this queasy feeling that things are
    about to take a serious turn for the worse in my marriage.  I suspect
    that this turn is going to be chemical based.  Sometimes I don't know
    where to turn or to whom I could turn to for help.  Then I remember,
    the real resources for coping are internal, the external resources can
    only provide support and ideas.  (go away Lorenzo, I don't need to hear
    it again 8-Q  )  
    
    8-{
    jimc

    re:.32
    
       I agree.  The true resources to deal with these problems are
    internal...if the person doesn't want help all the external support
    in the world means nothing.
    
    
    
                                         L.J.

    IMO, the external resources are important because they help
    the person _find_ the internal resources. The ability to deal
    with almost anything is in you, but you can lose it in the 
    clutter and the fog.
    
    Whatever external resource helps _you_ find your own strength
    is right for _you_.

    .23
    
    
    Please take it elsewhere.  Thanks.
    

	This is an update from the author of .0
        manisha


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


	Just to let you know I am still here and a little of
	what's going on. I have been looking into the resources
	that are out there for me, and for him. We start marriage
	counseling on monday. Perhaps this will help us to under-
	stand each other's behavior and other implications of being
	an acoa....I can only pray that this will become clear to
	him and that he will realize he in on the same road as 
	his father.

	I am still grappling with the pain of knowing he will 
	not change until he sees there is a problem, which right
	now he doesn't. That hurts. 

	Why a marriage counselor and not just directly to alanon?
	After lengthy discussion, he told me that he gave up on our
	marriage long ago, and did everything he could think of to
	drive me away and make me leave (which would mean it wasn't
	his fault). In a strange way, I understand this. This includes
	telling me I was fat (at 5'6" 135lbs), which my low self
	esteem believed; allowing me to run the entire household, 
	which made me resent him; making sure sex sucked, but also
	making sure to blame it on me; and the big one - drinking. 
	Early on he realized that this one I hated the most, so he
	did more and more of it.


	Well, I don't believe the last one any more than you do. He admits
	that every male on his father's side is alcoholic. I said it
	is not a game, it's not something you can just wish away. If
	you think you deserve a drink or have a reason to drink, you
	are asking for trouble. He agreed, but said he likes to drink.
	The blockage here seems to be that he has no knowledge about
	alcoholism, he believes the old assumption that if you don't 
	have to beg for a buck to buy a bottle of wine, you're not an
	alcoholic. Perhaps this is partially denial. 

	It's a start, I think. It seems to be less threatening for 
	him to go to a marriage counselor than an ACOA meeting, but
	I do hope that he will go to a meeting with me eventually. I
	am trying to take it one day at a time. 


	Lorenzo, you have every right to your beliefs. I do believe
	in God, but I can't find the strength I need right now from 
	within myself, so I must search for it from others. Perhaps
	this is also searching for God, in a way. As it says in (I
	think) Ecclesiastes, be kind to strangers because you never
	know when one might be an angel. Perhaps that's not quite
	applicable, but I also mean to say that there is God in 
	everybody, which is the strength I am looking for. 
	

    OK, gyns & guys,
    
    Your friend and humble moderator has had to put on her jack-boots for
    this one.
    
    All members of the community are welcome to offer advice and personal
    anecdotal evidence of the efficacy thereof on the problems of
    alcoholism, co-dependency, enabling, recovery, and healing.
    
    All members of the community are welcome to offer personal responses
    to advice and anecdotal support of these responses.
    
    NO MEMBER of the comunity will supported in name-calling, personal
    attacks or proselytising.  Belittling the advice of others will not be
    tolerated.
    
    I'm completely serious.
    
      Ann Johnston
      =wn= comod

    Re: 36
    
      I agree with you 100%. Do you think that scripture speaks of
    preachers also, being that they are messengersof God?
    
    Ps
    
    If anyone would like to continue this "subject" off line, you can
    contact me through VM.
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

    
    Re: .38
    
    I meant to write Angels.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    re: 0
    
    Well, I had previously written a book regarding my experiences with my
    brother-in-law, have since deleted it, and am starting again.
    
    There are many people out there who are going through similar
    situations.  My sisters is very similar to yours.
    
    The best thing I believe you can do, is to begin to look after
    yourself.  Live your life with you in first place.  My sister has been
    in the situation for 3 years now, and has been going to al-anon for two
    years.  It has helped her tremendously in understanding alcoholism as
    the disease that it is, along with helping her to realise that it is
    not her fault - as it is not YOUR fault! - You cannot make him come to
    any realizations.  He will come up with the most preposterous excuses,
    but will keep coming up with different ones.  It's hard to understand
    how an alcoholic mind works, which is why education regarding the
    disease helps.
    
    Create your own support system, what ever it takes to help you with
    your emotional strength.  It's a difficult battle and there is no
    guaranteed outcome.  Substance abuse counselors are fantastic too! 
    Counseling as a couple is a great step, please do something for
    yourself too.
    
    If I can help in any way, contact me through e-mail (busy::jbill)
    
    I wish you the best!
    jb

	>>It's hard to understand how an alcoholic mind works,


    You've got *that* right!  Most alcoholics don't understand how an
    alcoholic mind works -- how could anyone else *possibly* figure it
    out?!

    E Grace

    Well, I'm an alchoholic and drug addict. In recovery. I am also a child
    of an alchoholic. I don't pretend to know how my mind works or that of
    my mothers. However, I do know from my own experience that no one could
    help me until I wanted help. I went to all kinds of A.A. meetings, got
    a sponsor etc. It all didn't matter until I was ready to surrender. I
    at first had problems with the "program" because I'm pagan and they do
    tend to use a lot of "god" in their writings. What I needed to do was
    just realize that I am and was powerless. I needed help and it didn't
    matter how I got it. I use nature as my higher power and that works for
    me.
    
    I have my friends and support for my success. I struggle everyday with
    asking for help, but if I don't then I'm in trouble. 
    Therapy has helped me a great deal. I have had to look at issues that
    didn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy but there are reasons why us
    alcoholics drink. It has nothing to do with will power. I feel that in
    most cases there are reasons for our behaviors. Be it good or bad.
    
    I hope that you get some things you need from this file.
    Feel free to write off line. 
    
    Joanne