Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Well, I have gone out with men that I didn't see as potential sexual
    partners.  However, in those cases, I've been up front with the guy
    *before hand* that this was not a "date", and that I viewed him as a
    platonic friend.  Such events are also always "dutch" -- if there has
    been any cost to attending an activity together, we split it.
    
    Alison

if 'going out' is spending time doing what I like to do with others who share
my interests, you bet I would go out with those I do not lust for...in fact,
most of my 'going out' has been exactly this.  It is called 'social 
interaction' and it IS NECESSARY for a healthy life.  I think one problem 
is that so many men and women in modern society isolate themselves from 
simple social activities -- focusing so exclusively on 'getting a mate' that,
over time, they become quite boring...they have nothing interesting to say or
do.  And that makes it HARDER to get a mate.    

Is this gender specific?  I don't think so....I've seen far too many women
run this race to think that only men are subject to this focus...in my
experience, however, the women tend to play this game for the same basic
reasons, but using slightly different parameters, than the men...women seem to 
want validation...and expect to get it by 'getting' a man into a committed
relationship, preferrably a man who is deemed 'desirable' by her friends,
and co-workers, etc....the men I've known want a willing, even avid, sexual 
partner - without demands for committment - who will make him the envy of 
his friends and co-workers....again, the objective is validation, but the
parameters are different.  Herein lies "the rub".

    Ummm...what do you mean by "go out"?
    
    My "Dates" (defined as - going out with people I want to pursue a
    sexual and/or romantic relationship with) don't differ substantially
    in content from my "dates" (defined as two people sharing time
    together.)
    
    If someone asks me out (ha ha ha, don't I wish!!), and I like that
    person and want to spend time with hir, I will go out with hir. 
    Hopefully while on the date, we will both be able to talk about what
    our interests for the future are.  If s/he is Interested in me, and I
    don't share hir Interest, I will tell her so.  If I like hir, and want
    to continue spending time with hir, I will say that also.  In this
    case, the ideal outcome would be that s/he is not hurt by my rejection,
    and we would continue to go out (ie: share time together.)
    
    There are numerous people I go out with that I don't want to have sex
    with...I call them "friends".
    
    D!

    a date is romantic in nature, and has romantic ends (we're past the
    50s-you-gotta-hava-date-on-sat-nite here, yes?) so I guess yes.  I'm an
    old married lady, haven't done this in years.
    
    going out with a friend is not romantic in nature or end, so no.  I'm
    an old married lady, do this a fair amount.
    
    I never have had trouble telling the difference...
    
    Sara

    re.3  ok, let's limit the discussion to capital-D dates

    I would go out with a man just to have an enjoyable time with no 
    romance/sex/mate ideas at all.  I did have one rather unusual first
    date with a man I met through SINGLES.  Since I did not want to have
    sex with him on the first date, he didn't want to see me anymore.  I
    really should have told him about his very strong body odor.
    
    L
    *8-)
    

    Yes.  At least once, maybe twice.  I find that there are men that I'm
    immediately physically attracted to and there are men that I know I
    will NEVER be physically attracted to -- and I don't go out on "DATES"
    with the latter -- and then there are men who I'm not immediately
    physically attracted to but I become attracted to them as I get to know
    them better.  I find that more men fit into the last group than in the
    other two and I will date them a time or two to see if anything
    develops (so to speak).  If nothing seems to be developing after a
    couple of DATES, I figure it's time to stop seeing the person or have
    the "Can we be friends?" converstaion.
    
    Polly

 Given that "going out" is a romantically oriented date, I'm very tempted to
say that I would not be interested in going out with someone that did not
attract me sexually. Experience, however, says that there have been times when 
I've done just that. A "set-up" date is an example of this. My mother and
her mother practically insisted. So I took her on a date. Pretty blah. :-)

 And there have been "sympathy" dates as well...

 I guess it depends on what's motivating the date.

    
    Well, I guess you have to ask "what's a date".  If that's your main
    question, then I guess I date very rarely if it's only people I can
    picture myself sleeping with.  The older I get, the finickier I get. 
    Good for me.
    
    I go out with friends all the time though.  
    
    -Jody

    I don't like to live by set rules.  If somebody asks me out and I feel
    like going, I go.  If I had only ever dated people that I had found
    immediately sexually attractive I would have spent a lot more time
    alone that I have.  
    
    I think I have trouble separating friends from dates as well. 
    Basically I think of everybody I do anything with as friends.  I think
    there are no rules, just play it by ear.
    
    Lorna
    

    re.5 
    
    If we limit our discussion to only 'capital-D' dates which D! defined
    as those where romantic and/or sexual interest is present, then the
    questions in the basenote are pre-answered and there is no basis for
    discussion whatsoever.
    
    "Would you go out with someone you view as a potential lover even if
    you didn't view them as a potential lover?"
    
    I mean really ...
    
    re. in general
    
    I'm with Lorna on this one.  Life is too short to over-analyse. Wing
    it. When in doubt ask.
    
    I 'make dates' all the time -- somehow having 'appointments' with
    everyone but lovers seems a bit detached ...
    
      Annie

    re.3  ok, let's limit the discussion to capital-D dates

Doesn't work. The only difference between Dates and dates is the presence
of romantic/sexual interest, therefore the discussion is circular.  Of
course I only have romantic/sexual interest for those I have romantic/sexual
interest for.

I dunno, maybe Dates are easier to define for straight people - like,
dates with the opposite sex are Dates, and dates with the same sex aren't?
Or maybe the problem is that for some people the categories of "lover" and
"friend" are quite distinct - but I'm not one of them.

Let me give an example - there is a woman that I Dated (ie: went out
together, had a sexual/romantic relationship, etc) for a number of months.
For various reasons, I decided to stop to sexual portion of our relationship.
I'm still attracted to her, but I have no plans to have sex with her.
However, we still go out on dates - you know, the kind with romantic
dinners and candelight and long walks in the moonlight.  So would you 
consider that a Date or not?

Or - there are events that I want an "escort".  You know, the types of
things that are couple-oriented, and I would feel left out and lonely if
I didn't have a partner for the evening.  So I bring someone I like, and
it is a date, but that doesn't mean I want to sleep with hir.

There are also people that I am sexually/romantically attracted to that I
don't and won't ever want to have "sex" with.  Not only do I go on dates
(romantic dinners, etc) I will even kiss them, cuddle with them, hug them,
make out with them, etc.  But I won't have sex with them.  [Before all you
poor cock-teased men complain about how I am "leading them on", let me 
assure you that I am very honest about my intents and feelings.]

D!

    Consider:  Here you are.  You've never dated before (maybe you're
    only thirteen).  You figure that *someday* you will be married and
    have a family.  How do you get there from here?  Well, you have to
    marry someone, which means you have to find someone who is willing
    to marry you.  How do you get someone to do that?  Clearly, you must
    be a pleasant, attractive person to that someone.  How can you be
    that?
    
    Practice.  Go on dates and practice.
    
    						Ann B.

RE:        <<< Note 959.12 by TLE::DBANG::carroll "A woman full of fire" >>>

>I dunno, maybe Dates are easier to define for straight people - like,
>dates with the opposite sex are Dates, and dates with the same sex aren't?

???  A lot of people here have said otherwise.

Also, my lesbian-identified friends may be shocked that we have been
dating!  

Anyway,  I certainly go out with friends of the opposite (and same)
sex as friends.  Sometimes there is a gray area.  I can be attracted
to friends too but realize that I don't want a relationship with them.

To me the interesting question here is:  do you get sexually involved
with people that you know have no long term potential?
For me the answer is generally no.  I do but when I realize that a
long term thing isn't likely and I'm not falling in love or likely to,
I start feeling like it isn't right and will break off the romantic
part.

john

To me the interesting question here is:  do you get sexually involved
with people that you know have no long term potential?

    Yes.  If I were to have limited my sexual contact with people who
    had long-term potential, I would have had sex with maybe two, maybe
    three people in my life.

    I consider sex with a person I am attracted to and care for a joyous
    and exciting experience.  Not everyone I am attracted to and care for
    do I have long-term potential with.

D!

    re .15, yeah, that's the way I feel, too.  Besides, most of the time it
    seems that even when it seems like there's long term potential, it
    turns out there really isn't, so what's the difference.  (I actually
    don't find this depressing either.)
    
    Lorna
      
    
    

    er, I dunno, D!, about the straights' definition as you propose it...
    
    I mean, my closest friend at college was a woman and we did *everything*
    together...dinners, movies, hung out, went to plays, concerts, she ate
    with my cooking group a lot and we studied in each other's rooms, went
    out dancing, 
    etc. 
    Lots of people assumed we were Dating with the capital "D"
    
    A little difficult since she's lesbian.. :-)
    
    Anyway, our friendship met all the aspects of platonic "dating" and it
    was with the opposite sex.
    
    Maybe I'm just confused, nu?
    
    \D/
    

What about the "who pays" issue? I will go out once with a "person of the
apporpriate gender for sexual relations" and let hir pay. If I am not interested
in a romantic relationship I may still see them but don't like them to pay and
prefer to go dutch. (where did that phrase ever come from?) 

In a long term romantic relationship I alternate paying, usually depending on  
who suggested the date. With friends it's usually dutch but occasionally we
treat each other. The only men I am comfortable with spending money on me are
romantic interests or very close friends. 

And finally, this may make me seem very cold but, I have a number of friends
and many more aquaintances. If I go out with a man (I'm being gender specific
cause it's me I'm talking about) and he does not strike me as long term romantic
material, I probably won't pursue the "just friends" option unless we were
already somewhat friends before the date. 

I found on the first date with my current So that I was soooo much more comfort-
able than I had been on other dates because I had known him casually for years.
We had a common social and work background that gave me a feeling of familiarity.
Had it not worked out romantically we would have remained friends. The ones I
saw as blind dates or met over the net were one shot deals and I haven't ever
seen any of them again. Though I would be friendly if I ran into them I was not
interested particulary in just finding a new friend. liesl

    re: .18
    
    heh.

    I see a problem with the criterion of "sexual interest". To me,
    sexual interest and pursuit of same are two different matters
    entirely. I suppose I can truthfully say that it's rare for me
    to go out on a date with someone in whom I'm not sexually
    *interested* (while rare, it does happen on occasion). But just
    because I'm interested or attracted to her sexually doesn't mean
    that I'm going to make any effort to get into her pants.
    
    --- jerry