Conference turris::womannotes-v3

>    However, the media are already saying she was "driven to it" by the
>    blinding pain/rage. 
        
        She wasn't driven, she was driving.
        
>    So what do you think?  Are women (in general) emotionally capable of
>    cold, calculating murder?  Are they treated more lightly by the courts
>    because people assume that they must have been really desperate before
>    resorting to something so terrible?  
        
        Of course they are capable of cold, calculating murder.
        As for treatment by the courts, I think it can go either
        way.  A court that would give a light sentence to a man
        whose victim "belonged" to him, would probably be extra
        harsh to a woman who "took the law into her own hands"
        and killed a husband or boyfriend.  They'd take it
        personally.  A court that saw women as less competent
        than the legal "average man" might give a lighter
        sentence in the same case.  But contrast that to the
        practice of trying minors as adults in criminal cases.
        
        Dan

    Sam,
    
    I believe your assumption that men are treated harshly for the
    crime of killing a woman is incorrect.
    
    Here is a comparison of three murder trials (same county, same time
    frame) from _Women_Who_Kill_:
    
    	"...Since the gun went off by accident ["[The gun] was
    	defective in several respects and had a hair trigger.  [The
    	expert witness] was able to make the gun fire by tapping it
    	on the floor and witnesses testified that it had discharged
    	of its own accord while it was being carried away from the
    	scene of the shooting."], she wasn't guilty of murder, [the
    	defense counsel] argued; and since she had picked up the gun
    	in self-defense [She had already called the police to come
    	and protect her and her children from her ex-husband.], she
    	wasn't guilty of manslaughter either. ...
    
    	"... The jury found Childers guilty of involuntary manslaughter,
    	and Judge R. Perry Shipman handed down the sentence prescribed
    	by statute: five years.
    
    	"Judge Shipman could have reduced the term to two years or
    	suspended it altogether, but he didn't....  The last two people
    	charged with murder in Benton County, both men, seemed in
    	comparison to have gotten off rather easily: one who shot his
    	wife was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and given the
    	minimum sentence of one to ten years, while the other, the
    	man who beat his wife to death and raped her while giving her
    	"a good thumping" was never tried for murder (despite what the
    	sheriff called ``a lot of evidence'') but allowed to plead
    	guilty to manslaugher and given a six-year sentence."
    
    My perception of the above dichotomy is that women are held to a standard
    based on `justice', while men are held to a standard based on `mercy'.
    
    As long as you look at individual cases, preferably as unlike as
    possible, you will never see what actual patterns are really there.
    Find a statistical analysis of the punishments for men who kill
    their philandering women, women who kill their philandering men,
    men who kill the men their women are philandering with, and women
    who kill the women their men are philandering with, and then we'll
    know what problem we're talking about.
    
    						Ann B.

 I'm not sure about murder but there seems to be a lot of leeway given
to women in divorce court. As in not being held accountable for her actions.
 When a man leaves a woman he is striped of his rights automatically. Yet 
many times when a woman leaves a man he gets to pay for her attorney to have 
his rights stripped. 
 I wonder how many restraining orders given to men to have his wife
removed from the house and tossed in the streets.

  Re: .3 ACESMK::PAIGE 

  > I wonder how many restraining orders given to men to have his wife
  >removed from the house and tossed in the streets.

  It's hard to say, but my guess is that the number is commensurate
  with the number of wives who physically abuse their husbands.

  JP

    Re: .2
    
    Ann, it's more complicated than you think. We should also include
    statistics on the following:
    
    a) Women who kill their philandering women
    b) Women who kill the wo(men) their women are philandering with
    c) Men who kill their philandering men
    d) Men who kill the wo(men) their men are philandering with
    
    Ah, is philandering really that great?

  > I wonder how many restraining orders given to men to have his wife
  >removed from the house and tossed in the streets.

  It's hard to say, but my guess is that the number is commensurate
  with the number of wives who physically abuse their husbands.

  Agreed, and that was my point the number of woman who use restraining 
orders are not commensurate with the number of men who abuse their wives.

Unfortunately many women who should don't, but too many woman use it
when they shouldn't and that fact alone causes a large percent of the 
problems for those who really need it. I know many cops that just don't 
take domestic violence very seriously because they remove a guy and 4 hours 
later he is back.

Solution: Make it real easy to get a restraining order but make the penalty 
for not being able to substantiate one as tough as violating one.  

Mick

    
    This topic reminded me of...

    I haven't read this note so I apologize if this is a tangent, but I saw
    a commercial for a science show coming up on PBS, and the subject has
    to do with possible biological differences between the sexes.  Seemed 
    like a ho-hum show, but part of this preview presented the provocative 
    statistic that for every 15,000 murders commited by a man, there are 
    2,000 murders comitted by a woman.
    
    I guess I assume that women kill for reason that can be construed as
    defense.  And men, for reasons that can be construed as offense.  For 
    the Most Part.
    
    CQ

    Divorce cases and murder cases have NOTHING to do with eachother.
    
    One is a civil case, the other is a criminal case - they are handled by
    totally different systems.
    
    D!

    
    Re .2
    
    Ann, I don't make the assumption the men are treated more harshly, but
    that was what the author of the article in question was saying, and I
    thought it might make interesting discussion.
     
    Sometimes it does seem that way, but I think that's because of
    misrepresentation in the press - we only get to read about very few of
    the cases which come to trial.
    
    Sam
    

Sam,
	Coincidentally, in yesterday's Daily Express there was a case
of a man who had killed his wife that seems of the same genre. 
I don't have the paper in front of me but the gist was that his wife had 
become an alcoholic and dependent on drugs over some family tragedy
and for ten years had been increasingly verbally abusing him. (I don't 
remember whether physically abusive also.) On the night in question,
he physically restrained her from getting drink/drugs, and in the
process kicked her twice and left her on the bed. She died of internal
hemorrhaging. He got a one or two year sentence suspended in part due
to the suffering he had put up with over the ten years.

I was fairly shocked by the story as it made it seem as if the judge 
felt it was almost 'justifiable homicide'. 

George

  Re: .6 

  >  Agreed, and that was my point the number of woman who use restraining 
  >orders are not commensurate with the number of men who abuse their wives.

  Mick, I agree with you.  I believe there are far more men who abuse
  their partners than there are partners who get restraining orders
  against such behavior.

  >I know many cops that just don't take domestic violence very seriously 
  >because they remove a guy and 4 hours later he is back.

  Not sure what you are saying here.  Do you think it is always the woman's
  fault that the man is back four hours later?  If someone is in fact being
  physically abused, it is unlikely that they are in control of the
  situation.

  >Solution: Make it real easy to get a restraining order but make the penalty 
  >for not being able to substantiate one as tough as violating one.  

  What does it take to get a restraining order today?  Do you get one just
  for the asking?

  JP

    I heard on the radio the other day that in Brazil it is no longer an
    acceptable defense in a murder case to claim that the murder was to
    protect/restore the man's honor.  The case in point was a man who
    murdered (slashed to death) his wife and badly wounded her lover and
    claimed it was to defend his honor.  The bench, in denying the plea,
    commented that a man's honor is within his person and not in any
    other human being.
    
      Margaret

John,
 I think you missed my point on the reasons some woman get restraining
orders. My point was many women get restraining orders to end a 
marriage much in the same was Pam Smart wanted to end her marriage,
in a cold calculated manner. In court is comes out, after the separation
there having joint custody ect....while the woman who is really in dire
straits with out anywhere to turn is being manipulated by the abuser
and laughed at by the cops.

 And yes its almost always the woman's fault if the guy is back in four
hours and not arrested and tossed in jail. That is the problem,
a restraining order is to protect a person from life and limb, not
to end an argument or to stop a trespasser, there are other laws for 
that.

  What does it take to get a restraining order today?  Do you get one just
  for the asking?
   -For a woman yes, and what judge will over turn it. Even if it is completely
   baseless that judge is risking front page headlines if the guy does do 
   something, for some guy he doesn't even know, In NH very few restraining
   orders are ever ruled on. (Innocent till proven guilty? Due process?)
   
  
Don't get me wrong I'm all for restraining orders, just the they are not helping
those who really need it and the cops are being wrongly accused again!

          re: .6 (Mick Paige)

          > [...] but too many woman use it when they shouldn't and that
          > fact alone causes a large percent of the problems for those who
            ^^^^
              ??

               Where do you get that from?

               What evidence is there that women use restraining orders
          when they shouldn't ??

               And *if* that is indeed the case, how is this causing a
          "large percent" of the problems for others?
                                                       nancy b.

    This has started to sound like the discussion on false accusations of
    rape. A few women abuse the restraining order. So what? And why is it a
    woman's fault if the man comes back after a few hours?
    
    manisha

    	Something about this discussion makes very little sense.

    	If restraining orders are *not* to be used to end a marriage,
    	then why is there such blame heaped on the woman when the
    	marriage *doesn't* end (and the guy is back home 4 hours after
    	the cops took him out of there)?

    	Perhaps we're seeing some confusion here between reporting an
    	instance of domestic violence versus going to court to get a
    	restraining order (which does INDEED force a spouse to move out
    	of the home, with the great likelihood that the marriage will
    	end.)

    	People don't get restraining orders by calling 911.  It takes a
    	visit to a lawyer and/or court, etc. (which is hardly something
    	a person can do in the course of an argument at home.)

    	The result of a restraining order is a marital separation (which
    	is often the first part of the divorce process.)  It's not something
    	done to keep a spouse out of the house for 4 hours.

    	As for the comment about the cops laughing at domestic violence
    	situations - I don't think so.  These situations are often the
    	ones most likely to get cops killed, so I doubt if they consider
    	such calls humorous.
    	
    	Formfeed (hit next unseen to avoid description of violence):
    

    	Last weekend, it came out that the serial killer in Milwaukee (sp?)
    	passed off the kidnap, rape of a child as a case of homosexual 
    	domestic violence to 3 policemen.  These cops then RETURNED the 
    	child (a 14 year old boy)  - naked and bleeding from his anus - 
    	to the serial killer who subsequently murdered him before being 
    	caught in an attempt to kill someone else.

    	These 3 cops have been suspended.

    	No, I don't think they laugh about these calls at all.

> .0  the theme was that, in the authors opinion, women are treated
>    more lightly by the criminal law (mainly with respect to murder) 

I don't know the statistics for murder, but several studies on
juvenile crimes show that crimes that send teenage girls to reform 
school results in probation or court-ordered therapy for teenage boys.  
The crimes include drunkeness, shoplifting, and sexual activity.

A segment of "60 Minutes" last year reported on spouse murder in
South America and found that a great many men who murdered their
wives because of "violations" to the man's honor (forgive the
horse****) either never went to trial or were acquited. 

>  Are they treated more lightly by the courts ...

I doubt if they are.  Will try to look up the stats tomorrow.

 Meigs

>    I heard on the radio the other day that in Brazil it is no longer an
>    acceptable defense in a murder case to claim that the murder was to
>    protect/restore the man's honor.

This is also the subject of a report in the International News: section of
the current (I think) Ms, I know I saw it recently.  There were a few further
quotes from the decision; its a great victory in the Brazilian courts.

DougO

    In at least one case I can speak about, a man who wassx being mentally,
    verbally and physically abused, did not seek legal help OR a
    restraining order.  Why, you may ask?  He was 5'11", 190 pounds, she
    was 4'11", 120 pounds.  Who would believe it if he asked for help. 
    Even the few people who were close to him would not believe it.  Until
    the situation ended, his only recourse was to try to hold her off
    without hurting her (why not hurt her, she was hurting him?  Some
    people just do not have that kind of violence in them).
    
    
    
    How do I know this?  It was me.  Would the courts have believed me?  I
    doubt it, people who knew her thought she was kind and gentle.  In
    public, she was, but ask my daughters why they will not talk to her or
    try to see her.  They are afraid of her also.  Well, actually, the last
    time we were in her neighborhood, Jen, our 16 year old, went looking
    for her.  She was going to punch her mother out because her mother gave
    away her dog to a family that treats it's animals poorly and had the
    cats killed at the vets.  Fortunatley for everyone, she did not find
    her.
    
    jimc
    

.-1
     I can relate to that as well, in my case I have a restraining order
   against my mother in law, did I get it? no, I tried but they would not
   give me one. While divorcing her daughter and in court my mother in law
   threatened me again, the Judge said how can you take this abuse. My reply
   was no body takes it seriously so the judge (a woman) issued one. But the 
   next time she came after me physically I went to the police and they refused 
   to remove a grandmother from my presence after all can't I protect my self?
   


    

    .8
    
    What does divorce and murder have in common? You will find stats that
    connect allot of this. You will also find that in MD early this year
    there was a governers pardon of conviced women who killed their
    husband/boyfriends etc. The claim was that they were all driven/driving
    to do such heinous crimes. If I am not mistaken, please feel free to
    correct me, some 15-25 women. 
    
    Young women who grow up in inner cities are capable of commiting very
    heinous assults. One that was on the news sliced another young womans
    face then grabbed the flesh of the cut and tried to pull it open with
    her hand. 
    
    What does divorce have to do with murder? There are allot of men and
    women knocking off each other in a very heinous way that makes "War of
    the Roses" look like a the Mr. Rodgers show. Men throwing women into
    wood chippers. Women knocking off their husbands with the instructions
    of not blowing away the husband in frount of the family hound for you
    might tramitize the dog......
    
    

    George,
    
    You will find the discussion of the pardons by the Maryland governor
    in some note or other.  Jody???
    
    Lemmesee.  Women commit 15% of the crimes-considered-murder in this
    country.  The estimate on the level of these `murderous' women who
    are actually defending themselves against a lethal attack by a man
    is 40%.  When the law in Maryland was changed to recognize this, the
    governor pardoned those women who, in his opinion, were defending
    themselves.  He pardoned some 25 of 140 women.  (DO NOT QUOTE ME!
    These numbers are fuzzy.)  Thus, he pardoned fewer than half the women
    whom he (theoretically) `should' have pardoned.
    
    Pamela Smart did not even kill her husband.  She persuaded someone
    else to do this.  Please don't generalize from something that didn't
    even (quite) happen.
    
    						Ann B.

    Ann B,
    
    	No problem I will try not to do so if I have done so in the future.
    
    
    Happy Noting
    
    George

    George,
    
    Oh, ho.  A time traveler, eh?  "I have done so in the future."
    
    It's very reassuring to me that your "Happy Noting" is thus a simple
    statement of something you already know will be true.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  SOmething to do with it being late?

    
>    You will find the discussion of the pardons by the Maryland governor
>    in some note or other.  Jody???
    
    I don't remember where this might have been, but right now I'm on an
    intense project with deadlines-from-hell.  Anybody else know?  anybody? 
    buehler?  anybody?.......(name that quote)
    
    -Jody
 

    
    
    That is a quote from Ferris Beuhler's Day off.
    
    And you did it wrong, Jody.
    
    It's "Beuhler......Beuhler........Beuhler......"
    
    Not
          "Beuhler?"
    
    N
    

    .24 Ann B.
    
    	Yep, a time traveler. Chris Loid and self have allot in common.
    Alittle space-y between the ears.:) And a fan of Back to the Future.
    How about you? :) 
    
    But, there is a direct connection between divorce, domestic violence,
    and murder. Not going for general, sargents, or captians. :)
    
    Pam is a classic case, so is the man in another case named Smart.
    Hummmm..... There is no relationship between them execpt by name sake.
    
    Still how many men have been let out on parrol for killing their wives
    because they were domesticly violated agianst? There was a case
    in Exeter. If I recall the name was a Mr. West. He had been beaten by
    his ex. And was laughted at when he told the police about it. And 
    took his life in early January because he had a bad lawyer, he was 
    frustrated that his ex had thrown him out of home in the street and he
    had been beaten by her. He had paid for her martial art class's that
    allowed this to happen. And so no where to run, no where to hide,
    checked out of life.

    re.25 it's note 730

    Thanks .28!:)

    .26
    
    Sorry, I think you're wrong, it was:
    
    Bueller....Bueller....Bueller
    
    
    Maia Buehler
    

    
    sorry!
    
    Maia culpa?!!!!
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    RE:  .30
    
    I was going to ask "How the heck do YOU know?"
    
    Then I saw your userid.
    
    Touche'
    
    
    
    Nick