Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    We aspire toward thinness becasue highly paid models promote the image
    that thinness equates to beauty.  John Robert Powers didn't start it,
    but he sure helped it along.  It is the Powers ideal of beauty that is
    responsible for your friend's size-3 "fatness."
    
    In Peter Paul Rubens' paintings, all the women are depicted as small-
    breasted and decidedly chubby, even a little pot-bellied.  These are
    often intended to represent gods, goddesses, and the like -- I'd hardly
    think he was painting an ideal of beauty that did not reflect the
    prevailing attitude of his times.
    
    Today, I think, we're more interested in being what someone tells us we
    should be instead of being what we are.  We're letting others, the
    people who sell us things, sell us a false image of ourselves and, by
    extension, a false image of what it means to be human.
    
    -d

        When I was growing up my mother used to sing us these
        little songs, one of which started:
        
        	I don't want her
        	You can have her
        	She's too fat for me
        
        I wonder if she was trying to tell us something.
        
        Dan

    
    see also:
    
    womannotes-V1
    363 - fat is a feminist issue
    
    womannotes-V2
    940 - weight discussion - class or unhappiness
    
    
    also:
    
    The Obsession: reflections on the tyranny of slenderness
    	by Kim Chernin
    
    Fat is a Feminist Issue
    	by Susie Oerbach (I think)
    
    Mirror Mirror: Images of women reflected in popular culture
    	by Kathryn Weibel
    
    

  There was an interesting sidelight on this in a recent Science News
  article on anabolic steroid addiction.  I found an uncanny similarity 
  between the statements from some steroid addicts and statements from 
  women with eating disorders.  

  Some women with eating disorders claim to feel "fat" even though most 
  people would characterize them as emaciated.  The article gave an example
  of a man who had increased his weight from 175 lbs. to 225 lbs. -- he
  added 50 lbs. of muscle through steroid use -- and still claimed to think
  of himself as "weak" and "not very muscular."
 
  JP

    I wonder how much of the emphasis on thinness by some is an over-
    reaction to seeing the incredible number of profoundly obese people
    we have in this country.
    
    I'm talking about the 3-400 pounders that we seem to see more of more
    of on a daily basis.  It looks like a large part of our population is
    simply out of control.  I only truly became aware of this after a
    couple trips to Europe in the last two years.  Although Germany
    certainly has its far share of people who are "hefty", I can without
    exception say I did not see one waddling mountain of fat the whole
    time I was there......except a couple of Americans in the Frankfurt
    airport.  My fear is that one of these monsters is going to try and
    sit next to me in an airplane sometime!

    re .0, etc., well, I wear a size 3 and I'm fat, so it is possible to be
    both at the same time.  People can be fat in some parts of their bodies
    and skinny in other parts.  I don't think anybody's goal is simply to
    be skinny.  The goal is to be perfectly proportioned or to gain weight
    evenly over the body.  But, some women have flat chests and fat hips
    and stomachs, or fat bodies and skinny legs,or nice bodies and enormous
    legs,  etc., etc.  I think the
    impression is that the more we look like our culture's and the medias
    prevailing image of what is attractive, the more people will be
    interested in getting to know us and maybe being our friends or lovers. 
    If people are repulsed by their first glimpse of us it will be much
    harder to make friends, obviously.  I've always felt that the goal is
    to look "just right" not skinny.  (I saw Stevie Nicks in concert on
    Friday.  She's certainly not skinny, but she looks "just right" to me! 
    She's not fat either, of course.)
    
    Also, when reading that ideal women in the past wore size 12's and
    14's, I can only imagine with horror, just how obese *I* would have to be,
    with my height and smaller than average bone structure, in order to
    wear that size.
    
    Weight is a very touchy subject with most people.  Nobody likes to be
    told that they are either too skinny or too fat.  I don't think most
    people really feel they have a lot of control over their body type, and
    someone's body type is pointed out as being undesirable people feel
    picked on for something they can't help.  For example, I have *never*
    tried to be skinny but for years I could eat whatever I wanted and not
    gain an ounce, and I still weigh under 100 lbs. at the age of 41.  I
    didn't spend my life striving to be skinny.  It just happened that way
    for awhile.
    
    Lorna
      
    
      

re:.5 (COOKIE::LENNARD)

<grrrrr>

I get SOOOO angry when I see things like this...

>It looks like a large part of our population is simply out of control...
>waddling mountain of fat...one of these monsters...

has it ever occured to you that morbid obesity might be a result and not
a cause of the "[over] emphasis on thinness" in our society?

People are quite willing to feel sympathetic toward anorexics and 
bulimics, because they have an "eating disorder", so they can't help
themselves...and besides, they are still thin, which they are supposed
to be, so they must be reasonable people, with a few problems.

But obese people are "out of control".  They lack willpower, they are
weak, they don't take care of themselves, they are "monsters".

Many of these "waddling mountains of fat" have eating disorders, too.
Anorexics have an eating disorder which causes them to starve themselves;
bulimics have an eating disorder which causes them to overeat tremendously,
then vomit to rid themselves of it.  [Some] obese people have an eating
disorder which causes them to overeat.

Ever tried to lose weight?  Notice how hard it is to lose 10, 20, even 50 
pounds? Now imagine trying to lose 200 pounds.  Daunting thought, isn't it?

Extreme obesity is not a moral disability, it is a physical disability.
Most compulsive overeaters have very low self-esteems - largely because people
like *you* refer to people like them as "waddling mountains of fat".

The only difference between a bulimic and a compulsive overeater is that
the bulimic further hurts hir body and health by throwing up.

D!

    RE:  .5
    
    I have to point out that I found a lot of the language in this note
    very offensive.  People are people, *not* "waddling mounds of fat"!
    
    It would be too easy for that to be me.  It *was* my brother until he
    died.
    
    E Grace

    
    re .5                      
    >>I did not see one waddling mountain of fat the whole
    >>time I was there......except a couple of Americans in the Frankfurt
    >>airport.  My fear is that one of these monsters is going to try and
    >>sit next to me in an airplane sometime!
    
    
    I find this very offensive.  You are entitled to your opinions about
    fat/large/obese/etc. people, but I'd like to ask you to watch your
    language, and avoid phrases like "waddling mountain of fat," so that 
    we can talk about this difficult topic without hurting each other.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Justine 
    
                               

I realized I didn't explain what I meant when I said that overemphasis on
thinness was more a cause of than a result of obesity...

I think that compulsive overeating and other eating disorders have both
physical and psychological components.  I won't comment on the physical,
not being qualified, but there is a lot to the phychology.  Most 
overeaters have been plied with food as love since an early age; most
have been told at the same time that there is something "wrong" with
them for being fat.  A big part of the problem is that compulsive overeaters
have very low self-esteems.  Often they [we - I consider myself a compulsive
over eater] consider ourselves unworthy of being thin - we think we
are defined by our weight [not surprising when people use terms like
"monsters" and "waddling mountains of fat"].

I think if weight weren't such an ISSUE in our society, eating disorders
would be much rarer.

D!

    I too am offended by the terminology "waddling mountains of fat" and
    "monsters".  These people are no different than you or I, their
    "problem" may be a bit more visible perhaps, if you even agree that
    there is a problem.  If a person is happy, at whatever weight, for
    whatever reason, then where is the problem?  If you or I are *offended*
    by the sight of someone we perceive as being overweight (and I believe
    that term is very overused), than isn't the problem really ours?
    
    There is such a narrow margin of accepted "rightness" in our society
    that most of us fall on either one side or the other of the line, very
    few of us actually fit the description perfectly.  Wouldn't a society
    that was more tolerant and accepting of people's differences be a
    wonderful place to live?  Wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually got
    to know people before we made any judgements at all?
    
      -HA

    
    
>    of on a daily basis.  It looks like a large part of our population is
>    simply out of control.  I only truly became aware of this after a
    
>    airport.  My fear is that one of these monsters is going to try and
>    sit next to me in an airplane sometime!
    
    
    Who died and gave you the right to judge the universe of human books by
    their covers?  You'd be amazingly surprised how many people are NOT
    obese by CHOICE ("out of control" implies they can just wake up one
    morning and choose to be in control as easily as they choose their
    shoes that day).  These people are often in pain, hurt, discriminated
    against on a daily basis.  BY PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
    
    You are entitled to your opinion.  But part of the stress that causes
    overweight people to feel unsafe, in pain, and sometimes eat to numb
    that stress and fear and self-hatred, is caused by people with opinions
    like yours.  Obese people are human.  And they laugh and they cry and
    they have feelings.  
    
    I, for one, never enjoyed being barked at, but it took a long time to
    work through the issues that caused me to eat and gain weight.  It was
    no simple process.  It was a tremendous amount of energy and healing
    and support from people who CARED about me, despite the fat.  
    
    Who could see through the fat.  
    Who could see ME for what I was.
    Beautiful.
    Damnit.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Kate,
    
    I imagine that the last few replies to this string weren't what you had
    in mind, but it does seem we are getting at some societal attitudes
    toward weight.  Care to redirect?  I came in to help us get back on
    track, but I'm not sure I know exactly what you were looking for in
    the base note.
    
    Justine - comod

    I am overweight and right now it's completely intolerable to me.
    
    Why?  Because I am uncomfortable.  The clothes that don't fit are an
    easy, if expensive, fix -- I can buy new.  However, even comfortably
    dressed I am uncomfortable: I tire more easily, my feet and back hurt,
    my hip falls out of joint more easily, I have to strain to do certain
    things that I enjoy, the heat is more oppressive than wehn I weigh
    less, ... the list goes on.
    
    And I've started to _do_ something about it.
    
    I can already hear the choruses of, "good for you" and "we're behind
    you" and "hugs" -- all of which will be music to my ears and, believe
    me, I will need the love and support of friends.
    
    None of which changes the fact that I've done it all before, and lost
    it time and again.
    
    My cycle of addiction began when I was 19.  I got less unwanted
    attention the heavier I got.  Fat was safe. [oh, not really of course;
    but it still feels that way]  So when I lose the weight and people
    compliment me, it scares me a little and I have to fight the urge to
    eat a 20" trash pizza immediately.
    
    It's probably my most lasting rape side-effect ...
    
      Annie

    When I see someone slender or in good physical shape, I am
    envious, and feel fat.  When I see someone who is obese,
    these feelings lessen, but they do not go away.....
    I am still feeling the "I'm fat, I look terrible" guilt from
    this Saturday (my hubbys family reunion), as someone had pictures
    of me about 20 lbs ago.....I also just rec'd a batch of pictures
    back in the mail, and a picture paints a thousand words...
    (or pounds!:-() I'm overweight, I look and feel terrible, I
    have lost interest in everything, have no motivation, and am
    eating out of stress & unhappiness.  
    When I see someone who is in good shape, I am envious and the
    "lose weight/shape up" spark ignites, but it doesn't stay lit 
    long enough for the long haul.  A week of dieting, and it's back
    to the bad habits.  I have this old image of me when I was 18
    and in shape, and I see myself how I am now, and it just continues
    the cycle....I keep wishing that I could do what the movie stars
    do, you know, go into a health spa fat, and come out transformed.
    Or tap my heels together, three times, and wish....or borrow a
    fellows metabolism here, just for a month, because his is so fast,
    he has to eat oreos & milk before going to bed, or he will Lose
    weight.....I have to want to lose weight, change my eating habits,
    exercise, and decrease the stress...
    
    HRH                                                    
    

To the author of :
    Waddling mounds of fat... 
    
From being a young child I learned this.
    
I may be fat, but you are mean.

Fat can be changed if we choose to.
  
As for mean:
If you are Christian it damages your good rating for the afterlife.

If you are Buddist it damages your plus points (IMO for your next incarnation
it forces you to come back as a slug.)

If you are Jewish ... you'd better hope G-d isn't all eating too.

If you are athiest or agnostic... you are trapped on this earth, only
being able to reach out or contact with small minded phobic people who
say crude thinkg like that...and I in no way envy you.

The long and short of it is... if THAT is how skinny people view and treat those
that do not fit their mold... PASS ME the POTATOE SALAD, CAKE, Mocha-Chip
ICECREAM, and PASTA Please. YOU guys do not merit the restraint required
to match your "ideal".

Cindi

But seriously... I was thinking about something relating to this topic this
weekend. To me, a strong amount of the social and business limitations are
very similar to those placed on blacks and women.  If I had to run a marathon,
urinate in a bottle, and be virtually undetectable in Fenway Park every day 
I could see why these various physical attributes should be limits on my
positions, social interactions, and business endeavors.  Otherwise, it is just a
series of rules a majority made up to justify cruelty or prejudice.

e.g.- This theory kills me.
1-Obeisity is an extension of self hate.
2-You can not love anyone else until you love yourself.
Conclusion: Fat people can not love anyone.

(Not true)- It is a myth...perpetuated for a long time...and in no way does
it look like it will end soon.  I'll just heap it on with the other mythical
prejudices... with my 280lbs play my softball, basketball,swimming, and 
volleyball with my 353 lb husband and pray that you never have to face of 
against either of us in a linemens' position.  Your speed removed, in that
setting, you would be facing serious oppostion.  And if you say "But that
and Sumo Wrestling are DIFFERENT" you will just confirm it.  Prejudice,
cruelty, and intolerance takes many forms.


---------------------------------------------

There is a point, however, past which obeisity affects one's health.  THAT
to me is the ONLY reason that warrants efforts at reduction.  Big Fuzzy
is a partner I want to keep around for a LONG time.  If we have to reduce
to keep each other relatively healthy and together physically I guess
you can keep the extravagant eating.  He is worth it.  The "image","ideals",
"beauty","perfection", are not. Just my opinion CEB-M.

    

    personally, I think its all a state of mind.  I have days when I feel 
    great about myself, but all it takes is to see one woman with
    that 'perfect' figure and I wish I could disappear.  Ive been through
    the diet centers (jenny craig) and was very successful at it but once I
    stopped that program I gained my weight back- and then some.  Its
    discouraging and disheartening.  I work out on a daily basis and have a
    very athletic build but if given the chance Id trade it in for that
    slimmer, more petite look.  Who wouldn't...  People's attitudes about
    other weight and fitness is whats causing all the pain these days - no
    one wants to talk to you first to find out what kind of a person you
    are.
    
    I don't diet anymore - I found its a lost cause for me and Ive come to
    the conclusion that maybe I just ought to be happy with what I was born
    with instead of changing it in order to meet someone elses standards. 
    That doesnt take the hurt away - that doesn't make me feel any better
    when I look in the mirror but for me its better than going through all
    of those diet programs only to gain it back in the end.  
    
    What Id like most is to feel beautiful on my wedding day - not to have
    someone else tell me I do - but for me to genuinely feel that about
    myself.  What would make me feel that way ---beats me.
    
    For those who find weight control easy - and I honestly don't feel that
    many do - please keep in mind that losing weight for some people is as
    difficult to do as quitting cigarettes or drinking is to others. 
    People with attitudes about over weight people are a part of the
    problem...if someone called me, or if I overheard someone calling me,
    a 'mountain of fat' Id first tell him/her where to stick it!...but then
    Id go home and cry ...and EAT.
    
    maureen
                                                 

	I had to reply to this one, if only to speak up about the
	now-infamous "waddling mountains of fat" comment.  I'll
	agree, it wasn't a very sympathetic phrase.  It hurts to
	hear it if you have/had a weight problem, or are close to
	someone who does.  

	However, I also spent a number of weeks in Germany and was
	struck at the lack of truly obese people.  I kept wondering
	why Germans (and other Europeans?) were, in general, in much 
	better physical condition than Americans.

	One thing I noticed, is that physical activity is a very
	common part of their days.  Where we tend to drive to work,
	drive to the store, drive to visit friends, and then *maybe*
	try to squeeze a walk or a workout in our day somewhere, they
	would hop on their bikes to go to the bakery or the post office.
	A common family activity would be to walk along paths in the 	
	woods.  All ages participated: toddlers to grandparents.  

	In fact, when I was in Germany I weighed probably 30 lbs more
	than I do now.  My 50ish aunt was in better shape than me!  I
	was horrified by my own lack of conditioning!

	I think Americans need to rethink thier reliance on the all-mighty
	automobile, try walking or biking instead.  Granted, if you work
	35 miles from home, biking may not be a viable option.  But how
	many people are lucky enough to live 3, 5, or 10 miles from work?
	Or from the corner store when you need milk or the paper?  Not only
	is it great for your body, but it's also great for the environment.

	Ok.  Off my soapbox,
	Sue

    Ahem.
    
    Speaking as a Waddling Mountain of Fat: I hope I don't have to sit 
    next to *you* on an airplane, either. Airplane seats are way to small,
    to begin with - average-sized people have problems being comfortable
    in them. So this puts *me* in a situation in which I spend an entire
    flight sitting on one hip trying to cram myself in a corner of the seat
    simply so I don't bother *you* - because Gawd knows, I'm such an
    uncontrolled *sloth* I have No Right to bother you - a fine, upstanding
    citizen who's above all Of Average Weight and Thus Worthy of
    Canonization. 
    
    Feh.
    
    
    Fat people do NOT eat more than average-weight people. Women,
    especially, have trouble losing weight because we are genetically
    programmed to store fat. Women are overwhelmingly those with eating
    disorders, because we are told and taught and screamed at over and over
    that we "shouldn't be" fat (among a thousand other things). You can't
    read a so-called women's magazine without seeing at least one and
    usually more, articles on losing weight. Women are NOT supposed to take
    up space in this world - seems like <ahem> people get nervous when we
    do. 
    
    I certainly hope you can avoid us for the rest of your natural life.
    Meanwhile, have a nice flight.
    
    --DE (Woman of Weight)
    
     

    Seriously, I agree that regular exercise would go a long way to 
    ..er.. reducing the problems we Americans have with overweight, 
    high b/p, cholesterol, etc. But (sorry, I've forgotten your
    name...er...Sue? (RUSTIE::NALE)) is right - we're pretty well
    automated, and have to actually go out of our way to get exercise.
    
    Add to this the fact that if you are, indeed, overweight, you tend NOT
    to want to go outside where people can (*gasp*) actually see you, and
    ride a bike or jog or walk, or whatever. You see a goodly number of
    overweight guys out there, and figure "Geez. Lookit *him*. Must be a
    linebacker for the local college team."  But you see a Woman of Weight
    out there on a bicycle, and what happens..."Hey Lady! The Sumo
    wrestling finals are next week." [Much raucous laughter] 
    
    "Refrigerator" Perry was, quite simply, fat. Period. He made a pile of
    money and was *given* the ball as a special treat so he could score in
    the Super Bowl. Liz Taylor gains 15 pounds, and somebody calls her
    obnoxious names. 
    
    So, great! Let's all get more exercise. Let's all eat right. But let's
    stop treating women as if our duty in life was to be a Certain
    Prescribed Weight That (Mostly) Men Find Especially Attractive.
    
    Lorna can give you the scoop on what happens if you come in on the
    *thin* side of That Magic Shape, and you are female. At least airline
    passengers don't have nightmares about it  ;-) . Still it's hard to get
    it Quite Right if you're female.
    
    --DE
    

    
    
    Actually, I think I said this somewhere before:  Very obese people can
    actually gain weight on very low calorie diets because of their body's
    inability to process fats (Your body has to "learn" how to process
    fats).
    
    
    
    I know that one of my biggest problems with weight is that when I get
    down to 155-160, I get noticed (someone mentioned this before).  155
    has been like an insurmountable barrier for me EVERY time that I've
    lost weight (which is twice).  My goal is only 145, so I'm only 10 lbs
    away from it, but it's like a brick wall that I can't get past.  
    
    And the reson I can't get past it is because of the attention I receive
    from people.  It's one of those bitter sweet sorrows.  I want my body
    to be appreciated, but at the same time, I don't want to be harrassed
    and hit on.  
    
    What do I do when I hit that barrier and the attention gets to be too
    much?  Candy bars (of which I actually hate), fast foods (high fat),
    munchies, etc....  It really sux.
    
    
    Wanting to be at a healthy weight without the harrassment.
    
    kath
    

    Unless I am misunderstanding, it seems as if some people think
    that being thin means getting unwanted attention. I would be surprised
    if this were true. I don't think I'm getting unwanted attention.
    It does happen occasionally, but it's the exception rather than the
    rule. For example, every once in a while when I'm out for a walk, some 
    guys go by in a car and blow the horn or make remarks. I see this as
    an act of aggression that has nothing to do with the way I look. 
    I've noticed that it doesn't change regardless of how I am dressed. 
    Therefore, I don't think it would change if I weighed more either.
    So I don't understand why anyone would think that being thin means
    getting unwanted attention.
    
    Eileen
     

...and how they think is that any woman who somehow fits their concept of
attractive is fair game for harassment.  Yes, I get the occassional
"bark", but when I'm slimmer, I get many more incidents of harassment per
day.

Eileen, believe us women who have gone up and down on the weight
scale when we say that, for us, thinner == more harassment.

Because it's true.

Signed,
Another Woman Of Weight aka "mountain of flesh"

Bobbi "when's the deadline for anti-fat insensitivity?" Fox

    Re .19 - << Fat people do NOT eat more than......
    
    I cannot agree with this.....My husbands roommate,(back in '85)
    tipping the scale at @ 350 lbs, did NOT eat what the
    average-weight person did. (He now weighs over 400...) 
    Example:  Dinner consisted of two large submarine
    sandwiches, loaded, a 2 liter bottle of Pepsi...
    finished off with the 1 lb of onion dip he had made
    15 mins before, and a 1 lb bag of Ruffles potato chips,
    and another 2 liters of Pepsi. 
    My appetite is certainly not average, either....I normally
    could eat 1/2 a large pizza, or 2 Bigmacs, a fry, a pie and 
    a drink.  Or, 3-4 chicken cutlets, a veggie, potato, 4-5 rolls
    and a drink.  A normal-weight person would probably have 1-2
    slices of pizza, or a cheeseburger, small fry & a drink, or
    1 cutlet, large helping of the veggie, 1 roll, potato & drink.
    I eat too much, and I eat wrong.  And, I eat because of stress.
    
    HRH
    
    

    RE:.23
    
    Bobbi,
    
    It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that I can't understand
    it. If thinner equals more harrassment, then I should be getting a
    lot of harrassment, since I'm quite thin. But I'm not. It's an
    occasional thing. Unwanted attention about once every two months
    from guys going by in cars is about all that happens. So if thinner
    equals more harrassment, why is it not happening to me?
    
    Eileen
    

Eileen, if you have been thin all your life, perhaps you have become
so used to it, that you hardly notice it anymore. Perhaps you only
notice the very overt stuff, whereas a woman who has become thin
after a long time being heavy will notice more subtle stuff - things
like a guy's eyes slipping *downwards* while you talk, like men 
wanting to stand a little closer to you than they did before, make
more eye contact, etc...

Attention is very subtle.  You are talking about harassment but not
all attention would be classified as "harassment".  An appreciative
look, a smile, etc all are types of attention that thin women get more
than heavy women, and can be threatening to a woman who has been hiding
from attention behind her fat.

D!

Also, the definition of "unwanted" might differ.

If you are single and "looking", the attentions of men might be wanted. 
Whether overt (men asking to buy you drinks in bars, etc) or subtle
(smiles on the street), you might feel flattered or warm-fuzzy when you
get that attention.  If the attention makes you feel good and not
objectified, that is fine, which could explain why you haven't felt
the need to hide from it, through fat or whatever.  For some women, 
getting hit on, asked out, fallen in love with, etc are very 
threatening.  Things you see as positive forms of attention someone who
is very insecure, unsure of their sexuality, etc might find less
positive.

D!

    re.22 [Eileen]
    
    If you were in any way referring to my response, you did indeed
    misunderstand, if only a little bit.
    
    I do not equate being thin with getting unwanted attention.  What I
    said was, as I got thinner, I got _more_ unwanted attention.
    
    Up until I was 19 I was reed-thin and I got lots of attention for good
    and ill.  Now, at 36, I get lots of attention for good and ill and I am
    not reed-thin by any stretch of imagination.
    
    It is a repeatable result that I receive more 'frightening' advances
    from men when I'm thin than when I am fat; they don't seem hear go away or
    no thank you or f*ck off.  It's almost as if the volume with which I
    assert myself must vary inversely with my physical volume in order to
    be effective.
    
    I spoke for myself and from my own experience.
    
      Annie

    re .25, it's not happening to me either, Eileen!  Maybe people who
    truly qualify as thin do not get a *lot* of attention from men.  Maybe
    women who were a tad overweight, then lose some weight, and are then
    neither fat or thin, are the closest to what men see as the ideal size
    woman, and therefore get the most attention.
    
    In a way, I envy it.  How wonderful to be able to go on a diet, lose
    some weight and then suddenly *presto* men come out of the woodwork and
    find you attractive!!!  I can't think of an equilvalent that thin women
    can do.  I mean, when I gain weight I don't gain it evenly over my
    body.  I *only* gain it in the stomach.  If I were to gain 30 lbs. I
    would look exactly like I do now, only I would look like I was 9 months
    pregnant!!!!
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .23 .24 
    
    I don't know.
     
    I used to equate more weight with more protection/less harrassment/less
    attention.
    
    But ... unfortunately ... I found that more weight doesn't protect
    you from harassment (a form of battery?? my SO is now investigating).
    
    So, you can't base your body type on what people might or will
    do to you because of it.  I have learned that, I think, intellectualy.
     But emotionally, I think the weight keeps you out of the "She was
    asking for it" negative category.  I think it leaves it in the
    "She can't be serious","She's too sensitive","she must be imagining
    it", "she doesn't UNDERSTAND him",or "She must be joking" categories.
    
    Different categories and things to fight against.  Same problem.  
    I imagine the reason is that the people who perform the inappropriate
    acts don't really do it because of anything YOU do,say,wear,weigh,or act.
    They pull it from their own inconsiderations, cruelties, or fantasies.
    
    If nothing else...
        I have learned that...
    
    Cindi

    Well, having been thin and well endowed, I think I know
    what she's getting at.  Now that I'm heavy, the endowment
    doesn't show as much, but when I started to diet, my
    shape was more noticable....hence, more unwanted attention.
    I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now....
    
    HRH

    re .27, yeah, I think you're definitely right.  I've never gotten as
    much attention from men as I wanted so it's difficult for me to
    understand why someone wouldn't want to get more.
    
    One interesting experience for me has been going places with my
    daughter the last couple of years and noticing how much attention she
    gets from men of all ages.  A lot more men and boys turn to give her a
    second look or a smile than I ever got at any age.  It really made me
    realize that there are women out there who get a lot more attention
    from men than I ever got.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .31, ah, just as I suspected, a woman has to thin *with* big tits in
    order to get a lot of attention from men.  Just being thin will not do
    it, women, you gotta have the big tits, too.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    That's interesting about thinner = more 'unwanted' attention.
    I've never thought about that before because I've been the same
    size all my adult life.
    
    If indeed thinner women do get more attention, that explains why
    I've built up a lot of layers of defenses against this kind of
    attention, whereas heavier women either didn't have to or didn't have
    the 'opportunity' to (as much).  So I may not 'notice' the unwanted
    attention because I've always unconsciously got some of my defenses
    up - which serves to defuse the unwanted attention before it really
    comes my way.
    

    
    re: .29
    
    But Lorna, then you could pose for Vanity Fair!
    
    Carla
    

    Being thin and flat, I've never gotten all that much attention from
    random people on the street.  Then again, I never get all dressed up in 
    "feminine" types of dress.
    
    When I do get a lot of attention, it's always because I'm in a
    situation that is mostly male-dominated, where there's not a lot of
    women around.  Like when I went to school (technical situations),
    or in some of the things I do in my social life.  There are quite a few
    things that I really enjoy that are not stereotypical women's things.
    That really gets attention.  Good attention?  Very debatable.  Like a
    technical conference is NOT a place for attention.
    
    Lisa

    re .35, true, true, but once everyone found out my stomach was due to
    eating sweets and not exercising, instead of being knocked up by a
    handsome, actor hubby, they wouldn't love me anymore! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re.32  [Lorna]
    
    It was/is never the quantity of attention that made/makes me feel icky.
    I am an unabashed, egocentric, extrovert who can _never_ get enough
    attention from _anyone_. [I say this without prejudice and I'm not
    knocking myself].  I don't mind an appreciative look or comment, under
    most circumstances I thrive on them.
    
    It's the _kind_ of attention.  Cretins following me to my car and
    crooning obscenities is attention, but I'll pass on it.  Ditto, some
    truly complimentary comment on my thighs as I stand up to make a
    presentation. 
    
      Annie
    

    My SO has indicated that he might "love me anyway" were I to become
    thin ( or even 130lbs).  But he has indicated that there would be
    "something missing".  I dunno... I could maybey loose 150 lbs and
    sit on an airline with "moutains of fat"'s author... or... I could
    stay endowed in ALL regions such as I am...with maybe a little less ...
    and have "more to love".
    
    
       hmmmmm....
    
          hard choice here ....
       
             I mean my clothes would cost less...
    
               and the scrunch into Fenway Park seats wouldn't be so
               rough ....
    
    maybe...
    
    Well.... which would you choose?
    
    Cindi

    Re .38
    
    ...Ditto comments about home attention while in group meetings.
    
    ......ditto massage attempts while conferencing with mentors.
    
    ...........ditto same attempts while working on customer problems.
    
    Not out of Christian sharing... not out of long term friendships ...
    
    but I digress...
    Cindi

    re .38, of course you're right.  When I dream of more attention from
    men I admit what I'm really imagining is a phone call from Mel Gibson
    or Tom Cruise (or lookalikes) saying that just can't stand to stay away
    from me a moment longer than they already have!! :-)  (I guess I was
    also thinking, in general, that the more men who notice me, the more
    choice I have to pick from!)
    
    Also, I'm an introvert and dread getting attention from a lot of people
    at once.  It makes me want to crawl in a cave and stay there for a
    couple hundred years.  But, I love getting attention from attractive
    men, one at a time, and honestly don't know if I could ever get enough
    of that.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I don't have time to read all previous replies but I've got
    a few opinions on the subject.  
    
    First of all, I see people who are 50 pounds or more overweight
    as unhealthy.  It is this vision of unhealth that disturbs me.
    It also leads me to ask why this person is putting themselves
    at such risk.  Which leads me to think that they don't like 
    themselves very much.  There's an old adage which says something
    like 'before others will love you, you must love yourself'.  I
    think that logical progression of thoughts is what causes obese
    people to feel/be isolated.  I disagree with the early reply that
    anorexics don't get the same treatment.  
    If I see an obviously anorexic person, I have the same reactions
    as I do to an obese person.
    
    I know I'm not supposed to be judgemental and I'm working on it.
    I just wanted to offer a logical explaination for the whole
    problem.
    
    Rachael
    

Fascinating string. For once, I've taken the time to read every entry
and it was well worth it. _In_my_experience_, many men have perverted 
sexual attraction into a need to gain power over the women they're 
attracted to, regardless of whether they know the woman in question. 
I used to be "hit on" a lot. I didn't like it. At my current weight, 
I know of only one man who finds me attractive, and he's not "icky" 
about it. We're still friends <grin>. I feel more invisible, and hence
safer than I did when I was thinner. This does not mean that I am or 
feel totally safe, but I know that many more people don't even notice 
me now than when I was young and traditionally beautiful.


Liz

	Re: .24 (Lynne) re: Fat people do not eat more than...


	The way I interpreted it was that overweight people have the same
	variations in eating habits as non-overweight people -- i.e. some
	of them certainly eat too much, but others eat like birds (where
	does that expression come from, anyway?)

	I've known several overweight people who didn't hardly seem to eat
	at all, and several underweight people who ate all the time with no
	visible effect.  Neither, unfortunately, was satisfied with their
	weight.  (I think it's one of those axioms of human nature)



	*A*

wish I'd thought of this last night, at home, where I have the book _Tehanu_ by
Ursula LeGuin.  (it's the 4th book of the Earthsea trilogy ;-) and I recommend
them highly). The main character is Tenar, a woman with white skin who lives on
an island of darker-skinned people.  She has been married & raised children, and
in one passage she is talking about how the men of the island saw her.  It went
something like this -- 

"...their eyes followed her, thinking, what's it like, a white woman, white all
over?  Until she got older, and they no longer saw her."

The feeling that many of us have -- that being larger than the bikini-ideal of
attractiveness of our society makes us less visible, or safer -- in some ways is
true.  Age has the same effect -- when I had that beauty of youth, I got a lot
more (let's call it) casual attention than I do now.

Generally I notice a person's weight with about the same emphasis as hair color.

Sara

	I've known several overweight people who didn't hardly seem to eat
	at all, and several underweight people who ate all the time with no
	visible effect...

Not speaking of your friends, but in general...

Many compulsive overeaters/food addicts are so ashamed of their weight,
their addiction, of being "monsters" and "waddling mountains of fat" that
they eat secretly.  In public, they eat "normal" amounts of food or less,
and then in private they binge.

Also, lots of overweight people (both compulsive overeaters and "normal"
overweight people) are constantly dieting, only to then gain it back, and
then diet again.  To outsiders, it appears that they hardly eat anything,
because they are so often dieting.  If you binge a lot, it doesn't take 
much time to gain back the weight that it took forever to lose.  My
typical cycle was that I would diet for a week, two weeks, three weeks,
and everyone would comment on how little I was eating...but I couldn't stick
to it, and then for two or three days I would go on a food rampage and eat
everything in sight.  But no one saw me during those days.  Then I would
eat like a "normal person" for a few weeks or a month, then go back to the
dieting...

Also, "eating like a bird" very accurately describes my eating patterns.
I have a very small stomach - I can't fit much in it before it hurts.  So
at meal times (when people are around me) I generally only finish half of
what is served.  But then I am hungry again in an hour, I eat more, get
full, am hungry an hour later, etc.  Birds eat very little at one time, but
they eat constantly - in fact, they eat something like 10 times their body-
weight in food daily!!  (Flying takes a lot of energy - birds stay thin.)

It is my observation that, except in very rare cases of metabolic
disorders (thyroid problems, etc), most overweight people consume significantly
more food than their thin counterparts.

D!

    A brief observation -

    It seems like every time this subject comes up, there are two
    opposing themes which get all tangled up - social implications of
    weight, and health consequences of weight. It might help unwind
    things if there were two related (adjacent?) topics, one for each
    theme. (And then there could be a third, write-only read-never
    topic for the "benefit" of those people whose main goal is to heap
    abuse on those they view as overweight.)

    and 
    3
    etiology of obesity
    

    Jeez.....well excuse me for the WMF comment.  Let's just leave it at
    VLP (Very large People)...OK.
    
    Was glad to see some support on my comment about Germany/Europe and the
    general lack of VLP.  I agree that a life-long pattern of consistent
    excise is a big part of it.  My relatives there have a country home,
    and I recall on May Day this year from early in the morning on, dozens
    of groups of people, from teen-agers to people in their 70's passed by
    with day packs etc., on their way for a FULL DAY of hiking.  But also,
    you will generally not see Junk Foods, regular eating between meals,
    or non-stop snacking on chips, pepsis's, etc., which have become
    virtually a way of life here.  What's really scary is to see our whole
    next generation of children already firmly established in these
    terrible eating habits......and worst of all our schools almost
    encouraging it by giving in to the pizza crowd in school lunch rooms.

    After reading some of these notes I have many mixed feelings.  My
    daughter, who is just 15 years old was admitted to Children's Hospital
    last Friday.  She is being treated for a Over Eating Disorder.  She has
    never been able to control her weight, or have we since she was born.
    
    We have tried every thing you can think of, Diet Workshop, OverEaters,
    etc.  She has been to see different counselers many different times,
    they all worked the same issue DIET.  After all these years we met with
    someone who told us diet may not be the issue.  You must find out the
    reasons why your daughter eats like she does.  We are doing this now
    because she asked us too.  She told us its no fun being FAT, she wants
    to do the things NORMAL kids do.  We don't know what will happen in the
    next month or so that she will be in the hospital but we will do
    anything to help her.
    
    It really bothers me to read some of the off the wall remarks in some
    of these notes.  Its very hard to watch someone you love very much go
    through a problem they can't control.  I know someone will say that she
    doesn't have enough will power to solve her problem or she doesn't care
    about herself and other stupid remarks.  She has a real problem and
    didn't choose to be the way she is.  She has worked very hard and
    hopefully continue to work hard to correct her weight.
    
    I just wish people would think before they spoke.  There are many times
    when we go out that I hear some very nasty remarks made about her.  I
    never did much about it until a year ago, when she started to cry when
    a ADULT called her a fat pig.  I about put that person, female, through a
    store window.  She was a person who probably never had a weight problem
    and thought she would make her friends laugh with her keen sense of
    humor. Since that time if I hear anyone making off colored remarks I
    make sure they get both barrels.  I have a very loud voice, and when I
    start to talk to them about their mouths many others usual hear me. 
    Its funny how often they cower when someone confronts them.
    
    Next time you see a overweight person you might want to take the time
    to get know them. You be surprised how many of them are "Real Nice
    PEOPLE."
    
    Enough said, Ken.

    If you have eliminated physiological causes, it would seem to be worth
    looking at psychological causes (although your comment "or have we
    since she was born" certainly runs counter to that)
    
    a theme through several of the responses is low self-esteem/abuse. (as a
    CAUSE -rather than a RESULT- of obesity i think)
    
    Good luck, your daughter must be in a lot of pain, as must you and Dad
    
    				herb

    
    Ken, I hope your daughter is doing OK.  I cried while I read
    your note, for the cruel jabs your daughter has sustained.  I
    wish her the very best.
    
    Carla
    

    Ken-
    
    Hope your daughter does o.k.  My best wishes to all of
    you....
    
    HRH

    My mom was 5'3" and weighed over 250 lbs.  She hated being fat, but
    not enough to do anything about it.  To her credit she didn't complain
    about it.
    
    I'm 5'4" and weigh about 115.  This is very heavy for me because I have
    small bones structure.  Right now I need to do some serious sit-ups
    to  put an end to a slightly bulging stomach.  I don't really care
    *how* much I weight as much as what I look like.  If I weighed 135
    but looked good in a bathing suit I'd be happy.
    
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

I think the "average" American diet has as much to do with overweight as the
force of society. It's not too hard to pack on the pounds when most of your
calories come from fat. Add in lack of exercise and it's easy to see why so many
are "fat". It is a lifestyle issue as much as a mental/emotional one.

This won't be a popular statement but I agree with the airplane comment. I once
had to sit next to a very fat person who took up a good portion of my seat. I
*don't like to be touched* by people I don't know, I don't like to feel their
sweat on me, and I paid for a full seat. I was miserable for 3 hours. Does this
make me an unfeeling monster? 

I haven't noticed an increase in "unwanted" attention since I lost weight. There
has been an increase in attention of the sort I wanted. I actually feel much
better about how I look. I haven't ever gotten much in the way of men following
me or making ride comments. Most of that occured when I used to commute by
bicycle. Men feel real brave in cars. 

Ever since seeing Teminator 2 I'm feeling terrible about my upper arms. I want
to be physically fit, not skinny. I loved Linda Hamilton's arms. liesl

    << I want to be physically fit.
    
    Me, too!  :-)
    
    HRH
    

    Ken, good for you, I agree TOTALLY with you re-orienting these cruel
    people who would be so inconsiderate as to make such crude comments. 
    And I hope your daughter has found a path that helps her.
    
    Sara
    

    Re: .42
    
    > If I see an obviously anorexic person, I have the same reactions
    > as I do to an obese person.
    
    ARGH! You can't tell by looking.  I have several times been mistaken
    for an anorexic.  I don't starve myself; skinny is just how I am.
    
    It's not exactly healthy to make assumptions about people then react
    on the basis of what may be a false assumption.
    
    Mary

    Like Liz I've found this to be a very interesting note and I've read
    every response.  I'm thin, and my experience has been that I don't seem
    to get a lot of attention from men.  I have noticed exactly like Sara
    that when the bloom of youth was no longer upon me, the attention died
    down and that feels very sad for me.
    
    It seems very curious that so many women who have lost weight
    experienced an increase in attention from men while those who are
    thin don't think they get a lot of attention.  Perhaps having lost
    weight and feeling more attractive, you may be sending out vibes
    that say "I feel attractive" and then men pick up on that.
    
    I know when I'm feeling more attractive I think people pick up on
    it and respond differently even though I still look and weigh the same
    as when I'm feeling ugly.
    
    Mary

> I
>*don't like to be touched* by people I don't know, I don't like to feel their
>sweat on me, and I paid for a full seat. I was miserable for 3 hours. Does this
>make me an unfeeling monster? 

There is a difference between not wanting a fat person to fill your space
and calling them "monsters", as the previous noter did.

D!

    You mean now I have to worry about what my upper-arms look like,
    too?!!!!!   I've already spent the past 25 yrs. worrying about my
    chest, my stomach, my ass, and my legs (!) and *now* I have to worry
    about my upper-arms, too!!!   I give up!!  I can't take any more! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Cheer up, Lorna, we're taking up a collection to send you to
    Gold's Gym, and buy you a 3-month supply of high-protein
    drink mix ;-)

    re .62, is that before or after I go to the shooting range? :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    gotta build up them muscles to hold up the guns >;-)

    
    
    RE: .29 (Lorna)
    
    >I *only* gain it in the stomach.  If I were to gain 30 lbs. I 
    > would look exactly like I do now, only I would look like I was 9
    >months pregnant.
    
    Just thought I would interject a comment here. Each human body has a
    unique "makeup" for it's distribution of fat.  Some women gain fat in
    their thighs, others their stomachs, still others their chest first.
    
    However, fat is an overall distribution covering the entire body. When
    a woman is at/below what is considered to be a "healthy body fat"
    percentage (21-23%), the fat will be fairly distributed thinly over
    their body.....if you ask them where the most of their "fat" is, they
    will pick one place.  If that woman then puts on weight, it's highly
    likely that she will put weight on FIRST into that location.  After the
    initial fat storage in that position, it WILL spread to other locations
    on the body.  
    
    So, Lorna, if you were to put on 30 lbs, it could be quite possible
    that a large portion of it would go to your abdomen area.....but as you
    increased toward the upper limit of that 30 lbs, you would start to see
    more fat in other areas as well.
    
    Also.........with fat, the first fat on is the LAST fat off.  I gain
    fat in my thighs/abs first....that will be my LAST spot to lose it.
    
    :-(
    
    kath

    re. Mary
    
    once more with feeling.
    
    it's not too _much_ attention.  a lot of attention feels good.
    it's not too _many_ people paying attention.
    
    it's the significant increase in weird, sick, and innapropriate
    attention.
    
    it happened when I was 22 and dropped 18 lbs.; it happened when I was
    27 and dropped 30 lbs.; it happened when I was 32 and dropped 25 lbs.;
    hell, it even happened at 35 when I dropped 12 lbs.
    
      Annie 

    Also.........with fat, the first fat on is the LAST fat off.  I gain
    fat in my thighs/abs first....that will be my LAST spot to lose it.

That's why god invented liposuction, right?

D!

    I, too was accused of being anorexic or bulemic for most of my young
    life.  When I finished breast feeding my son I got to keep the goodies
    up top(fair trade for a few stretch marks).  Since that time I haven't
    been accused of that again.
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

re: .55
    
>This won't be a popular statement but I agree with the airplane comment. I once
>had to sit next to a very fat person who took up a good portion of my seat. I
>*don't like to be touched* by people I don't know, I don't like to feel their
>sweat on me, and I paid for a full seat. I was miserable for 3 hours. Does this
>make me an unfeeling monster? 

    Gee.  I bet the fat person was uncomfortable too.  You'd think with the
    apparently vast proportion of large people (and yes, there are quite a
    few large people in existence) that they'd REDESIGN the seats to
    accommodate people comfortably.  But, of course, that'd cut into their
    profits.  It doesn't make you an unfeeling monster to be miserable, no,
    but if you were to BLAME the fat person for your discomfort when in
    fact the design specs of the seat were at fault WOULD be unfeeling (not
    that you did that, I didn't see you do that, nor do I think you would
    do that).
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    RE: .46  (D!)
    
>It is my observation that, except in very rare cases of metabolic
>disorders (thyroid problems, etc), most overweight people consume significantly
>more food than their thin counterparts.

    
    
    Chapter 1  (Fit or Fat?  by Covert Bailey)
    Fat People Eat Less Than Skinny People
    
    
    "Most fat people feel guilty!  Society points its finger in shame at
    the overweight, making them feel that they are somehow morally weak,
    that they are gluttons with little strength of character.  They
    chastise themselves at every meal, certain that they are overeating
    again.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The will power of fat
    people never ceases to amaze me.  They live a life of perpetual
    self-denial.  If naturally skinny people denied themselves the way fat
    people do, they would fade away completely.
    
    The truth is most fat people eat less than skinny people.
    
    During the initial interview in our clinic, fat women quickly tell us
    that they know why they are fat.  They are convinced that they eat too
    much.  When we ask the typical fat lady if she eats more than other
    people, she answer that she eats more than anyone.  But when we ask her
    about her husband's eating habits, she explodes in exasperation, "That
    darn man eats three or four helpings at every meal and is still as
    skinny as a beanpole!"  About this time she recognizes her
    inconsistency.  Her husband eats far more than she does.  She may then
    insist that she snacks during the day, which is probably the truth. 
    Most nutritionists (who ought to know better) believe that this is in
    fact the cause of her problem.  But studies have confirmed that fat
    people are usually quite restrictive in their diets:  that they eat
    less than their skinny spouses. The simple truth is that fat people
    have internal chemistry that has adapted to low-calorie intake.  And
    when they DO overindulge, as all of us do from time to time, they gain
    weight while their skinny friends stay slim."
    
    

    And does the typical overweight person expend as many calories?
    Work at a physical labor type job? (I remember when I used to
    heave boxes for a living - 145 pounds and couldn't gain weight to
    save my life! Sigh.)

    
    
    >That's why god invented liposuction, right?
    
    YEa, that's when some people consider liposuction as an alternative.
    Liposuction actually sucks out the fat cells....So, guess what, you
    don't have as many fat cells in that area anymore.....however, if you
    DO gain weight again, the weight will go into the nearby fat cells
    (which can leave the body to look pock-marked.)
    
    Liposuction gives me the creeps.
    
    kath

    
    
    RE: .71 (Dana)
    
    No.  That's the point.  A fat person's body has adapted to the point of
    not "knowing" how to burn off fat.
    
    
    Exercise is the key.
    
    
    kath

    It's okay, Annie, I did understand.  I just didn't qualify when I
    used the word "attention" because what may be considered sick,
    wierd or unwanted is relative.  One woman might enjoy a catcall
    while another might feel icky.  Other folks did make similar comments
    about increased attentions of various types.  I wasn't really refering
    to the quality of the attention so much as the quantity.
    
    I don't know but if someone is sending out a message that says "I feel
    attractive" you can't control how the person receiving it will react. 
    One guy might give appropriate attention while the next guy says or
    does something sick.
    
    Mary

    I agree with Kath.  My mom always ate much less and more healthy
    than I ever did.  She didn't, however, get any good aerobic exercise.
    I really believe this would have helped.
    
    
    
    
                                   L.J.

    
    
    
    >I agree with Kath.
    
    Well, actually I'm just presenting the facts that I've gathered.  The
    "Fit or Fat?" book is well worth the $5.95 I paid for it.  Actually,
    more pertinent to this conference "Fit or Fat? For Women" might be
    better.  I've bought the book, but haven't had a chance to read it.
    
    
    kath

    Chapter 1  (Fit or Fat?  by Covert Bailey)
    Fat People Eat Less Than Skinny People

Well, we've talked before about my opinion of Covert Bailey.  :-)  
(For others out there, I despise the guy, and his books, too.)

D!

    
    re D! and Kath,
    
    I've read Covert Bailey's book too (just the one, _Fit_or_Fat_)
    and it seemed to make sense to me.  So what's your problem with
    CB, D!?  (I know you said you've said it before, but I must have
    missed it - send mail if you don't want to reiterate here).
    

interesting group of comments...as a fat person (yes, I say "fat"..obese is
an okay word, but fat is what I am) who has a devil of a time losing any
weight because I take steroids to control severe allergies....I can 
assure you that I am not running home and binging on food when noone is looking.
I eat less than most of my friends and family members...when I splurge, I
splurge, but it isn't an everyday thing.  I exercise when I can breathe...I
am not allowed to exercise when the breathing isn't easy.  Will I ever be
"thin" again...not until the de-sensitizing shots work better than they have
so far...do I care, well, I am feeling BETTER now than I used to because I
can breathe more of the time...I do regret some of the weight's side-effects -
for instance, I've learned to hate to fly...I don't care about the purely 
social limitations because my friends are still my friends....and I haven't 
had a lover in years. You get used to being alone after awhile 
[and in my most secret heart, I have to admit that the men I've loved wouldn't
have lasted a long time with me, even had I stayed skinny. They were all 
looking for that "perfect woman"...and I wasn't her - even thin].

I think the most interesting side-effect I've seen is that I have more men
friends now...real friends...than I had before.  Now that I am simply not
an object of lust to them, they seem to relax and be themselves...I really
like these guys!  We share conversation, laughter, and support one another
as equals.  Almost worth the weight just to experience this.  Oh........
I've also learned to be wary of meeting strangers because I am never 
prepared for the hostility that some "normal weight" people have towards 
me..just because I'm fat.  I tell them, "don't worry, fat isn't contagious".
Somehow, that doesn't seem to help.  And, the real downer is...their 
prejudice is ACCEPTABLE... they could never get away with their overt
hostility if I was of "normal" weight and a member of a minority race, for
instance....it is totally uncool to make jokes about African-Americans, or
Mexican-Americans, but it is FINE to make remarks about the "woman as big
as the state of Texas - you know the one...she buys her clothes from Omar
the Tentmaker".  A real learning experience.

    re: -1
    
    Oh, how your note affected me!  Two of the complicating factors in my 
    brother's death were obesity and osteoporosis, brought about by
    cortico-steroid therapy for his Asthma.
    
    People, *please*, before you go making snap judgements about people
    based on their appearance, think about this:  Bruce was a rail-thin
    kid, right up into his early 20's.  At that time he started gaining the
    weight so typical of people on long-term cortico-steroid therapy.  Over
    the years, he gained more and more, and a man who was already incapable
    of strenuous exercise (he had had 1/2 a lung removed, besides his plain
    old shortness of breath) became totally incapable of exercising.
    
    He was in constant pain -- physically because of all the crumbling
    bones, and emotionally because he *knew* what he looked like.  By the
    time he died last month, he looked like dough.
    
    And that is all that many people saw, someone who inconvenienced their
    space, someone at whose expense to make jokes.  They didn't see the
    fine mind, the quick, sometimes rapier, wit, the sad man, the loving
    man.  I just thank God that in the last 4 years he found Kathy, a tiny
    woman who saw *Bruce* first.
    
    Until you know a person's private pain, take your OWN BLOODY
    INVENTORIES!
    
    
    E Grace

>  I exercise when I can breathe...I
> am not allowed to exercise when the breathing isn't easy.  Will I ever be
> "thin" again...not until the de-sensitizing shots work better than they have
> so far...do I care, well, I am feeling BETTER now than I used to because I
> can breathe more of the time...

    Dian, I assure you there are more severe asthmatics in this world
    than myself (and you may well be one of those), but back when the 
    asthma first hit and I was in very bad shape generally, I found 
    that I could do Nautilus (slowly, with lots of breaks if necessary...) 
    if I could breathe at all, and although it didn't help my breathing 
    as much as aerobic exercise, it *did* help, and kept me from going
    into a death spiral where the lack of exercise made it harder to 
    breathe, and the shortness of breath in turn kept me from exercising...

    I've also found it unbeatable for firming, although it doesn't do
    much (if anything) to burn fat.  I'm not sure what I would have done
    without weights... lots of days (when walking and slow swimming proved
    to be too much) it was the only exercise I could do.

        Sharon
    

	I'm having a hard time understaning these "unwanted attention" 
	comments.  From what I can figure out, some of you are saying
	that you are fat because you wanted to escape the "unwanted
	attention" that you received being thin.  I have been thin all
	my life and have received my share of rude whistles, men leering
	at me or making comments and so on.  I just let them roll off
	my shoulders.  Sure, I hear them, and sometimes they bother me
	to the point of making an obscene gesture but I would never
	deliberately gain weight to escape it.  I used to hate my body
	in college because I felt that the only reason men wanted to
	go out with me was to get me into bed.  I then made the connection
	that the only way I could go out with somebody for any length
	of time was to sleep with them.  I still did not hate myself
	enough to get fat so that few men would be attracted to me.
	This confused attitude took a while to change and when it finally
	changed, I met my husband... he told me later in our relationship
	that if I had slept with him early in our relationship he would 
	have dropped me like a hot potato!  But, I digress...

	The point I am making is that you may get unwanted attention
	by being thin but you are also treated differently from being
	fat!  I cannot see trading a few whistles as a thin person for 
	a life of rude comments when you are fat.  If I was a thin 
	person who sincerely wanted to hide my attractiveness, dowdy
	clothing, an unflattering hairstyle, and no makeup would do 
	the trick quite well.  If you dress nicely to emphasize your 
	sexy figure then you should not be surprised at the attention!

	So, it seems to me that this "unwanted attention" fear is just
	an excuse or only a very small part of the reason why some of
	you allow yourselves to get fat.

	I am completely aware that for some people, thyroid and other
	health problems contribute to obesity.  I am thankful that I
	am not one of those people.  I could put on weight it I was not
	careful but I am petrified of cancer, heart disease, and other
	related problems that obesity contributes to.  Given the choice
	of unwanted attention and health problems, it is clear which
	one I have chosen.  Why have so many others not chosen this?
	
	I hope that nobody takes offense at my note.  I tend to be blunt
	and I tried to tone down my comments/opinions.  I truly am just
	trying to understand the motivation behind people allowing
	themselves to be overweight.  For the record, I LOVE to eat...
	my husband often says "some people eat to live, but Karen lives
	to eat".  His comment is true but I choose health above food
	anytime!  Am I making any sense?

	Karen

        If I was a thin 
	person who sincerely wanted to hide my attractiveness, dowdy
	clothing, an unflattering hairstyle, and no makeup would do 
	the trick quite well.  If you dress nicely to emphasize your 
	sexy figure then you should not be surprised at the attention!

	So, it seems to me that this "unwanted attention" fear is just
	an excuse or only a very small part of the reason why some of
	you allow yourselves to get fat.

I don't think it is a rational, concious choice.

Most people don't have the gift of *choosing* their coping mechanisms.
Multiple Personalities is one way of dealing with the pain of childhood
sexual abuse, for instance - probably not the best way, looked at in
such rational terms, but it isn't a *choice*, it is the unconcious mind's
way of protecting itself.

I don't eat to protect myself from attention - I eat because food provides
unconditional "love" - it can't reject, it can't abandon, it can't demand,
it can't stop and it can't die.  Rationally, I know as well as you that 
food is no substitute for love.  But that connection was not a rational
decision, and I can't just will it away.

That is why they call it a *disorder*.

D!

    In the following I do not in any way mean to be suggesting that there
    are no psyiological factors involved with excess weight. I am only
    addressing the question of why one might use excess weight as a
    defensive reaction to unhealthy situations.
    I imagine you can understand that if a woman is raped or a little
    girl is molested, the psychological impact can be -and usually is-
    immense.
    When something very bad happens it is very, very typical for the victim
    to feel that she (or he) did 'something wrong'. (maybe miscommunicated
    an interest, maybe really wanted it, maybe is just plain too
    attractive)
    It is a very understandable defensive reaction to try to prevent a
    recurrence of the trauma.
    Aha! she (or he) says, if my body is unattractive the rapist/molestor
    will ignore me...
    There are lots of scenarios less destructive than the above where a
    person or child (particularly a child, with her much less sophisticated
    view of the world) might feel that being attractive is a NO NO.
    Suppose she has older brothers who often make 'sexual remarks' as she
    starts in puberty (very frightening). Suppose her father, or her uncle
    or her ...
    There are lots and lots of reasons why little girls in our society
    learn to have bad body images. Psychologically-getting-fat is one of
    the reactions to these pressures.
    
    
    				herb
    

    D! Thanks for your literate explanations of the fear of unwanted
    attention on the part of overweight women. 
    
    This may be a note of it's own, but someone a few notes back said
    that some women might enjoy catcalls. I find this hard to believe,
    as I find them irritating or enraging depending on my mood, but
    never flattering. 
    
    Eileen

    This may be a note of it's own, but someone a few notes back said
    that some women might enjoy catcalls. I find this hard to believe,
    as I find them irritating or enraging depending on my mood, but
    never flattering. 

I have, at times, found them flattering.  I have also found them
humiliating, irritating and scary.

When my self-image was very poor, my general reaction to a "sexy" whistle
or a "Look at those looks, wooo-weee!" kind of comment was an embarassed
grin, fear that they would see my grin, fear that they would follow me or
harass me further, anger that they were taking fun at my expense, anger
at myself for being so manipulated (especially since I doubt their compliments
were "sincere")...

D!

I'd like to thank all the people who are considered to be overweight
who replied here.  I found it very good to read about your experiences
and how hard and difficult it can be and how cruel and prejudiced
people can be.  So thanks for letting me know how it is on the other
side.  I will certainly examine my own reactions the next time an
interaction comes up.

I find myself drawn to "fit and athletic" people for some reason (in
general).  Probally I missing a lot of potential friends that way.  We
really do seem to be all struggling human beings underneath all the surface
differences.  

I can't decide if how I feel about catcalls.  I don't know whether to
be flattered or insulted.  Sometimes I let rude and suggestive
comments slide if I know it just the way that person is
(like E at the 5 year party for example :-p).

An aside:  I was just catching up on some magazine reading last night
and I was reading the May/June Utne Reader.  There were some great
articles on the Men's Movement and some on how it relates to feminism.

john

re: .82
    
    to supplement Diana's excellent reply
    
    
>	at me or making comments and so on.  I just let them roll off
>	my shoulders.  Sure, I hear them, and sometimes they bother me
>	to the point of making an obscene gesture but I would never
>	deliberately gain weight to escape it.  I used to hate my body
    
    Good for you!  Not everybody can desensitize like that though (ignore
    such comments).  I certainly don't recall deciding one day I'd become
    200 pounds to avoid complements and attention.  It was utterly
    subconscious.  
    
>	in college because I felt that the only reason men wanted to
>	go out with me was to get me into bed.  I then made the conection
    
    That's one of the fears I'm sure I was dealing with.  When you're FAT,
    you know why people go out with you, and it's generally not something
    superficial or physical attraction.  They like you for YOU, not your
    looks.
    
>	of time was to sleep with them.  I still did not hate myself
>	enough to get fat so that few men would be attracted to me.
    
    Does this feel like "self-hate"?  This weight gain?  I think that if
    it's a coping mechanism that WORKS (and believe me, many people who are
    fat are fat for a REASON - the fat serves a purpose, to protect, to
    nurture, to help, to show anger, whatever - and the person may not even
    know they're fat for a subconscious reason but many are) then it's
    "self-love", it's "self-protection".  Maybe it's also self-love that
    drives one to find out why the weight was gained and try to deal with
    the issues.  But coping mechanisms, even if they look destructive from
    the outside, are not necessarily self-hate.
    
>	The point I am making is that you may get unwanted attention
>	by being thin but you are also treated differently from being
>	fat!  I cannot see trading a few whistles as a thin person for 
>	a life of rude comments when you are fat.  If I was a thin 
    
    Again, it's not a conscious choice.  I probably wouldn't trade it
    either if I was comfortable being thin or wished to learn how to deal
    with unwaanted attention.  But in many cases IT'S NOT AN OPTION.
    
>	So, it seems to me that this "unwanted attention" fear is just
>	an excuse or only a very small part of the reason why some of
>	you allow yourselves to get fat.
    
    EXCUSE?  ALLOW OURSELVES?  sounds like a lot of blame and aspersions
    being cast here.  Sounds like you're saying "hey you had a choice and
    you #ucked up and now you're fat.  Better learn to let those
    comments roll of your back like me so you can be thin and happy."

>	of unwanted attention and health problems, it is clear which
>	one I have chosen.  Why have so many others not chosen this?
    
    Because WE'RE NOT YOU!
	
>	I hope that nobody takes offense at my note.  I tend to be blunt
>	and I tried to tone down my comments/opinions.  I truly am jus
>	trying to understand the motivation behind people allowing
>	themselves to be overweight.  For the record, I LOVE to eat...
    
    Thank you for removing the sting here. 
    
>	my husband often says "some people eat to live, but Karen lives
>	to eat".  His comment is true but I choose health above food
    
    That's what people often say about compulsive eating - that exact
    phrase.  
    
    -Jody
    

    I eat to survive.  I don't much care for a lot of foods.  I'm very
    picky and like my food plain for the most part.  This means my
    choices are limited, so not over-eating isn't much of a problem.
    My weakness is sugar goodies and other such things.
    
    I just make a habit of only eating when I'm truly hungry and not
    when my mouth is hungry.
    
    As far as the catcalls go...sometimes I enjoy them.  If all it is
    a whistle I'm not bothered.  I even smile sometimes because they're
    simply appreciating my parents genetic engineering.  I have little
    to do with what I look like.  
    
    If the catcalls are of a sexual nature or someone tries to get
    closer than my personal space allows I'm not thrilled with it.  And
    I have no qualms about telling the offending individual exactly that.
    
    
    
                                 L.J.
    
    
    p.s.  Just spouting ideas...no point to make!  ;^)

    
    > If the catcalls are of a sexual nature
    
    As opposed to catcalls of a political nature?  Environmental
    nature?  Professional nature?  What other catcalls are there
    than those of a sexual nature?
    
    "OOOOOOOHheeeeeee!  Hey baby, nice recycled grocery bag.  Why 
    don't you come here and let me see your voter's registration?"
    
    Carla
    
    (Sorry L.J., couldn't resist!)
    

    RE: .91
    
    Carla,
    
    A note of which I am envious!
    
    I'm still laughing!
    
    E.

    I just make a habit of only eating when I'm truly hungry and not
    when my mouth is hungry.

Good for you. Be grateful you have that ability.

Some of us don't know *how* to eat when we are "truly hungry".

I'm not sure exactly what hunger feels like.  I read a book recently (on
the recommendation of a fellow noter ;-) called "Feeding the Hungry
Heart" and she talks about not eating when you aren't hungry.  What she
didn't say was how to know you are hungry?

I remember putting the book down at one point and "pinging" (in a computer
sense) my stomach, to see if I was hungry.  I COULDN'T TELL.  I've never
been hungry before - I am either full all the time because I am constantly
eating, or starving because I am dieting.  Most people just say "You know
when you are hungry - you just feel, well, you know, *hungry*."  But then,
as I was doing this experiement, I *became* hungry - the only kind of
hungry I know, "mouth-hungry" rather than "stomach-hungry". That was because
I was thinking about food and imagining eating it.

I read some research a few years ago about obesity, comparing eating 
behaviors of normal weight people and obese people.  (Incidentally, I use
the term "obese" in a medical sense - that is, more than 25% over 'desired'
weight) and there were some interesting results (Imay have talked about 
this before...)

In all studies, there were four classes of people: hungry (people who hadn't
eaten in a few hours) vs. not hungry (people who ate very recently), and
obese vs. non-obese.

In one study, everyone was given a milkshake to drink. Half of the shakes
were good tasting, the other half had quinine (a bitter, bad tasting ingredient)
added so that they weren't very appealing.  The non-obese people drank the 
shake if they were hungry, regardless of the taste, and didn't if they weren't
hungry.  The obese people drank the shake if it tasted good, regardless if
they were hungry, and didn't drink the shake if it tasted bad.

In another study, everyone was put in a room alone, with a sandwich on the
table, and told another was in a nearby refrigerator.  The non-obese hungry
people ate both sandwiches, the non-obese non-hungry people ate neither. 
The obese people ate the sandwich in front of them, and not the one in
the refrigerator, regardless of their hunger.

In another study, everyone was put in a room with a clock.  Sometimes the
clock was fast, sometimes slow, sometimes "on time".  After three hours,
the subjects were asked to rate their hunger.  All of the "normal" people
rated their hunger the same, regardless of the clocks in the room.  The
obese people in the room with the fast clocks rated their hunger as greater
than those in the room with the on-time clocks, who in turn rated their
hunger greater than those in the room with slow clocks.

The conclusion drawn by the researchers (and myself) was that there are 
internal and external queues that trigger the experience we call "hunger".
Internal cues are what you are referring to when you say "real hungry"
and what the book meant when it said "listen to your body."  External 
cues are things like: seeing food, watching time and realizing that it
has been a long time since your last meal, taste of food, etc, etc.

Obese people, on the whole, were more sensitive to "external" hunger
cues, and non-obese people were more sensitive to "internal" hunger 
cues.

basically, what it comes down to, is that a lot of obese people simply 
do not know what it means to "feel hungry".

And the same people who our obese in our culture, with its *abundance*
of external cues (advertisements for food, regular meal-time, etc) are
the same sorts of people who become malnourished in societies with
very few external cues (such as countries experience famine.)

Researchers have also been able to identify a portion of the brain that
controls hunger.  Contrary to popular opinion, it isn't the aching, gurgling
stomach or whatever that makes you feel "hungry", it is this portion of
the brain (which probably reacts to blood sugar, but it isn't clear.)
In rats, if they remove that portion of the brain, the rats will literally
starve to death on a pile of food.  In people, very rarely, that part of
the brain will not function properly, and those people will never experience
"internal hunger cues".  They *will* experience grumbling stomach and
stomach pains, dizziness from lack of food, etc, but they won't ever feel
hungry.  Eating to such people is like exercise to many of us - something
they realize they ought to do, but they have no compulsion to do it - so
it is a constant effort to remind themselves to eat.  Many of these people
end up dying of malnourishment.

Research is currently being done on how this "hunger center"of the brain
works different in obese people and non obese people.

D!

    > someone a few notes back said that some women might enjoy catcalls.
    
    'twas me.
    
    > I find this hard to believe, as I find them irritating or enraging
    > depending on my mood, but never flattering. 
    
    The way you feel about 'em has nothing to do with the way others may
    feel about 'em.  I don't particularly enjoy them either, but I am
    not the standard by which other folks are measured.
    
    Mary

    Thanks, D!, for the info on hunger.
    
    > Eating to such people is like exercise to many of us - something they
    > realize they ought to do, but they have no compulsion to do it - so it
    > is a constant effort to remind themselves to eat.
    
    That's often how I feel about eating.  It's like an inconvenience,
    something I have to do to live.  I will often "forget" to eat; if
    I'm involved in some activity I enjoy, I just think its too much
    trouble to take the time out to eat.  I've always thought it was
    because I'm too lazy.
    
    But I do tend to respond to internal cues.  If I've gone for a day
    without eating I start to feel the blood sugar drop and I eat.  But
    it ususally doesn't get to that point, because I do try to force
    myself not to skip meals.
    
    Mary

    
    
    RE: .77
    
    >(For others out there, I despise the guy, and his books, too.)
    
    That's too bad, D!  I think he's got a lot of good things to say. 
    However, I might mention here that when I decided to lose weight I did
    a LOT of research.  While Covert Bailey does have an attitude, he also
    has what I feel to be one of the BEST program out there to help people
    to lose weight and keep it off....it's called "changing your lifestyle
    and eating habits to become healthy."
    
    I encourage people to choose what works for them.  I also encourage
    people to research different methods.
    
    
    I feel that it's important to present the facts....even if the facts
    that I have gathered conflict with other people's facts (yours, D!).
    
    Just out of curiosity, WHY do you "despise" Covert Bailey?  Because of
    the way he ACTS or WHAT he says?  If it's the latter, I would be
    interested in seeing your research into why his findings are untrue.
    
    kathy

    I encourage people to choose what works for them.  I also encourage
    people to research different methods.
    
    I feel that it's important to present the facts....even if the facts
    that I have gathered conflict with other people's facts (yours, D!).

I agree entirely.  I hope I didn't come across as knocking people for
whom the "fat or fit" stuff works.  Every person is different, therefore
everyone's path to happiness and satisfaction is different.

My own observations differ from his (and yours) - but the that isn't as
important as whether it *works* for you. If it does, cool!!  Use it for
all it's worth.

    Just out of curiosity, WHY do you "despise" Covert Bailey?  Because of
    the way he ACTS or WHAT he says?  I

I don't like Bailey because I find his attitude offensive - which includes
*content* because I feel he is anti-fat.  *FOR ME* part of losing weight
means becoming comfortable with the way I am, and realizing that I am an
attractive and wonderful person, whether or not I lose weight.  What I have
read and seen of his, Bailey makes me feel unhappy with the way I am, 
therefore I avoid reading/viewing him.

D!

    This is being entered anonymously for a member of our community.
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    You don't know me,
    but you think you do.
    
    You know I'm lazy and sloppy,
    even though I dress sharp for work and
    you've never seen my home.
    
    You think I make poor choices,
    but you don't know what they are.
    
    You think my weight problem is soley from eating,
    you don't visit my doctor with me.
    
    You think I don't try,
    I struggle every day.
    
    You didn't see me climb that mountain last week.
    It took a while, but I made it to the top.
    
    You think I'm hopeless,
    But I know I can do it.  Just like the mountain,
    I will reach my goal, it will just take time.
    
    You think I hate myself,
    I love myself, and that's why your nasty 
    comments hurt.
    

    Touche!
    
    What I meant by sexual in nature was the difference to me between a
    whistle and a comment about various parts of my anatomy and what
    said person would like to do to them.  But good reply.  I would
    have jumped on it had I read it.  ;^)
    
    A friend of mine lost weight by eating 3 times a day...period.  He ate
    breakfast at 8 lunch at 1 and dinner at 7.  He never snacked.  He also
    ate what he wanted...but only allowed himself one helping of anything.
    He said at first it was hard and that he felt famished after only one
    helping of things and that all he could think about was the next meal.
    But after 2 weeks he began to adjust.
    
    He lost considerable weight and looks much trimmer now.  He still eats
    this way to keep it from coming back and now exercises regulary as
    well.
    
    I know if I'm hungry when my tummy growls at me.  However, some peoples
    tummies growl while digesting a recent meal so this may not work for
    you.
    
    
                                      L.J.

Somebody on a mailing list brought this up, and it was a very good point
so I thought I would share it here, since I agree with it...

There was recently an article in Ms. called "The Born-that-way trap",
in which the author claims that using the "I was born that way, I can't
help it" with regards to homosexuality is self-defeating.  It perpetuates
the idea that homosexuality is a disease or handicap or something else
negative, that people who are homosexual ought to be pitied.  It is a
powerful tool in politics, but the author argues convincingly that in the
end it will hurt us more than help.  (Anyone who wants to see the article,
send me mail.)

Anyway, a point was made on this mailing list that a similar controversy
exists over the fat issue.  Some people claim there is a medical reason 
why fat people are the way they are: either a metabolic condition or a
mental disorder, or whatever.  And that since it is something they can't
help, people ought not discriminate against fat people.

But people ought not discriminate against fat people *anyway*.  Whether
it is a thyroid problem, a damaged hypothalamus (where the aforementioned
"hunger center" is located), an unconcious or concious decision to hide
behind weight, a preference for weight or WHATEVER - fat people are still
people and there is no reason or justification for treating them without
the respect that we treat others!

A fat person should not have to claim "But I've *tried* to lose weight, but
I can't" any more than a gay person should have to claim "I have tried to
be straight by I can't" to be respected and no discriminated against.

I am still curious about the sources, whether they be physical, psychological,
genetic or some combination, of both weight and sexual orientation.  But I
think the focus on it being physical therefore it is "okay" is damaging.

D!

    RE: fat people eating more
    
    The person who said the variences were the same among fat as average
    size people is correct. Many studies have been done, and no - the
    people didn't go into closets and hide their gluttony. Fat people
    happen to have metabolisms that are very good at storing energy,
    which is to say, fat.
    
    Please get off the "Fat People Are Gluttons" bandwagon. It simply isn't
    true, regardless of how many single examples of fat people who eat
    a lot you know personally. There are many *more* examples of fat people
    who eat an average amount of calories; not to mention the number of
    examples of rail-thin people who can eat fat people under the table,
    and never gain an ounce.
    
    How much people actually *eat* is a red herring, anyway, when you're
    talking about societal attitudes. I still submit the attitude toward
    women who take up more space is quite different from that toward men
    who take up more space.
    
    --DE
    

    RE: 927.69
    
    Thanks, Jody. Exactly. If airplanes had slightly larger seats, everyone
    would be happy....except the airline couldn't sell as many seats per
    plane. Greed rears its ugly head again. And the problem is that not
    only are large people uncomfortable in the seats, it's perfectly ok to
    look upon them as *deserving* to be uncomfortable.  Ye Olde Double
    Whammy(e).
    
    RE: books
    
    The best book I've read is "Making Peace With Food". Lots of good data,
    coverage of the societal attitudes toward women's size, and excellent
    advice regarding exercise and nutrition (NOT "dieting", however). 
    
    RE: attitudes
    
    I read a quote by Tyne Daly not long ago - I'll paraphrase it, since
    I can't remember it exactly. "The best thing a woman can do [for
    approval, implied] in this society is to lose 20 lbs."  Also, fat women
    get lots of points for always being "on a diet". Seems you're partially
    forgiven if you're at least suffering a little.
    
    The fact that low-calorie diets make you store more fat seems to escape
    notice. 
    
    --DE
    

    
    
    RE: .97 (D!)
    
    >I don't like Bailey because I find his attitude offensive - which
    >includes *content* because I feel he is anti-fat.
    
    Actually, I don't believe that Covert Bailey is "anti-fat."  He is,
    himself, not a thin person (nor is he heavy, but I would say he has a
    stocky build).  Just from looking at him, I would say he's about 19-20%
    body fat which is on the high end of what is considered "healthy", but
    for a man his age, he should have a little more.
    
    Covert Bailey's tactics can be offensive to some....to others he can be
    very motivational.  However, I think he's got the right idea in
    presenting the idea that to be HEALTHY is what is important, NOT to
    starve yourself.  
    
    There are some diets and diet centers out there that just give you
    their "food" and their "diet" to follow and people never really learn
    how to alter their eating habits, nor do they learn about exercise and
    how exercise is necessary ALONG WITH changing eating habits, in order
    to be a healthy person.
    
    I know that I hope and pray that everyone's goal out there is to be a
    HEALTHY person, not to be "thin" person.
    
    
    kath

    RE: healthy vs. thin
    
    Exactly. If you are exercising and eating properly, then whatever 
    weight you are is ok for you. If you are naturally 150 lbs, and you're
    always fighting your body to get down to 100 lbs, you are certainly NOT
    healthy.
    
    --DE
    

    I know that I hope and pray that everyone's goal out there is to be a
    HEALTHY person, not to be "thin" person.

That, I think, is the point of what a lot of us in this note (and previous
related notes in previous versions of =wn= are complaining about.)

For many, the desire is to be thin; not healthy, not happy, just thin.
And that is because the pressure from society on women is to be thin;
not healthy, not happy, just thin.

Incidentally, *my* goal is to be happy.  I think both health and thinness
will come naturally to me when I am happy, but those are not my goals
(at least, not the goals I've *chosen*.)  I would rather live a short but
happy life than a long miserable one.

D!

                -< happily, this standard seems to be changing >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re.105 just my opinion, healthy, as in enough muscle to
    look sculpted, is much more attractive than thin/featureless.
    
    Take two people of the same height and measurements. One is
    not toned, shows no muscle curvature or definition. The other
    shows the exercise. Which looks better? The second person
    probably has better health, has more energy, weighs 10 pounds 
    *more*, can eat and enjoy more types (and quantities ;-) ) of 
    food, and burn it off.
    
    Why would anybody want to be _thin_ ???
    
    Dana

    
    
    RE: .104
    
    > -< Oh my god. Something I agree with KG on! ;-) >-
    
    Well, you know, there has to be something good in each and every one of
    us.
    
    :-) x 1/2
    
    k
                                                                    

    It's not so much that I want to be thin as it is that I don't want to
    be overweight.  I want to be healthy.
    
    I shy away from diet and weight-control programs because I find their
    language personally degrading and de-humanising.
    
    Take the word 'cheat' -- as in 'eating something not on the diet.' I
    cringe when I here someone say this. 
    
    When I eat a salad I'm 'good', but when I eat a pizza I'm 'bad?'
    I don't think so.  I'm just me.
    
    But there's a lot of societal re-inforcement of this good/bad
    dichotomy.  
    
    Lately [like since Sunday] I've been eating whatever I want when I'm
    hungry and eating until I'm no longer hungry.  This is very hard work
    and it's a journey in self-discovery as well.
    
    As D! alluded to in a previous reply, discerning the difference between
    being hungry and having a hunger is tough stuff when one is accustomed
    to feeding _all_ hungers with food.
    
    Thus far I've lost 6 pounds.  So I must have been 'good', right?  Well,
    I guess; but having two glasses of champagne to celebrate Rick's new
    job and tortellini for supper Tuesday night and just having a glass of
    milk around 9pm last night doesn't sound like 'good' by any of the
    popularly accepted weight-control lore I've ever encountered.
    
    Yesterday, I went out to lunch with co-workers and just _panicked_!
    I was quite hungry and thought about what I was hungry for and then
    when we got to the restaurant, nothing on the menu was even _close_! So
    I substituted ... it was very tasty, but it wasn't what I wanted. I ate
    until I was no longer hungry, but I wasn't satisfied way down in my
    wishbone. Then I spent the afternoon with the urge to go out and eat the
    something I'd set my heart upon even thought I wasn't hungry at all.
    
    I promised myself that I could have it as soon as I was hungry again,
    made sure it would be available, and wouldn't you know I didn't get
    hungry again until 2pm today? [except for the milk last night]  It was
    fabulous! [I never knew tomatoes, bell peppers and provolone cheese
    could be so wonderful ...]
    
    Sounds easy?  it's not.
    
      Annie

    re .106, re Why would anybody want to be thin?
    
    I don't know why anybody would want to be, but some us just are, so is
    it okay to put us down?  How do you think that sounds to *me*?  It
    sounds like Why would anybody want to look like *you*?  Yech!
    
    Just a not-so-subtle reminder that thin people are actually human and
    have feelings just like their heavier counterparts.
    
    Lorna
    

    Long ago in a universe far away, I bought a book called _Diets Don't
    Work_.  It was great and helped me re-pattern the way I eat so that
    I could stay healthy.  Now it's been years and I'm in the position
    of needing a refresher, so I've bought the new version called _Diets
    Still Don't Work_.  It combines writing with workbook style exercises
    to help us each figure out why we eat when we're not hungry.  I don't
    remember many details, but I remember a lot of "Yeah!  That's why I
    ate all those cookies!" type reactions.  It made me think a lot about
    why I eat and really made me aware of some of our society's unhealthy 
    attitudes towards food.  
    
    Karen.

    
    
    There's a couple things that bother me about diet center-type programs,
    but one of the main things that bothers me is the fact that they seem
    to feel that people who want to lose fat are unable to control
    themselves.
    
    Many of these systems prescribe their pre-packaged foods (which, in
    reality, are usually full of preservatives and contain quite a bit of
    sodium).  I don't want food to be used as a tool to force me to do
    something, and I don't want to be told what I can and cannot do (and
    eat!).  
    
    Many of these systems weigh you on a continual basis (every week
    sometimes) and that puts a LOT of stress on the person if they don't
    lose X lbs each week.  Each person's body reacts differently to weight
    loss--some people will lose many lbs immediately, and other will not.
    
    I like having options and I like having the freedom to choose.  Tell me
    what makes me healthy and tell me what makes me unhealthy.  And TELL ME
    that unhealthy things taken in small doses are NOT "bad."
    
    kath
    
    kathy

    re.109 [re.106]
    
    Although I wasn't the one who said it, I read 'Why would anyone want to
    be thin?' more like 'why would anyone make thin a goal?'
    
    Having seen you I think you are a very beautiful woman, but I don't
    want to look like you.  I want to look like me.
    
    So, while I don't have thin as a goal -- I don't, specifically, want to
    be thin -- if I end up thin after working through my eating disorders I
    shall be quite happy and satisfied.
    
    It's like I've always thought that your hair colour is the most
    beautiful colour a person can have [I'm not making this up]; but I know
    that it would look utterly atrocious on me [I tried it once, not a
    pretty memory].  Which means that while I certainly like your
    hair-colour a great deal better than my own, I do not want to have your
    colour.
    
      Annie

    Take the word 'cheat' -- as in 'eating something not on the diet.' I
    cringe when I here someone say this. 
    
    When I eat a salad I'm 'good', but when I eat a pizza I'm 'bad?'
    I don't think so.  I'm just me.

Annie, I've noticed this too, and it bothers me.

Weight Watchers and Nutri/System etc have tried to avoid this judgemental
and degrading language.

For instance, they don't refer to their eating plan as a "diet", but as
a program.  Eating food not on the plan is not "cheating" but "going off
program".  These terms carry much less baggage and implied moral 
judgement.

I used to think the distinction was silly, and was just "PC language".  but
one of my new things I am working on is not being self-depracating, which
means, among other things, not using negatively judgemental language
about myself.  I am realizing how important language is in how we view
things!  So I have started using the term "program" instead of "diet" and
"cheat".

I've also stopped using the term "good" and "bad" to refer to how successfully
I am following program.  Once again, it may seem silly, but I find it much
more self-affirming to say to myself "I didn't do well on program yesterday"
than "I was bad yesterday".  [Even the former carries some judgement - if 
anyone has a more affirming way of saying it (without sounding too silly)
I welcome suggestions.]  My moral worth as a person is *not* determined by
how much I eat, or whether I follow the rules I've chosen for my eating.

D!

        re .113,
        
>I've also stopped using the term "good" and "bad" to refer to how successfully
>I am following program.  Once again, it may seem silly, but I find it much
>more self-affirming to say to myself "I didn't do well on program yesterday"
>than "I was bad yesterday".  [Even the former carries some judgement - if 
>anyone has a more affirming way of saying it (without sounding too silly)
>I welcome suggestions.]
        
        My program had a bug yesterday. :-)
        
        Dan
        
        p.s. or ...
        
        	I'm back on program today.
        
        	I wandered along a non programmed trail yesterday.
                	[a hiking metaphor]
        	
        	Gee, that break from the rigid confines of my
        	program was refreshing!

    re.114
    
    I assume you were being 'humourous.' I wish I could laugh, really I do.
    
    But I feel as if I've just been slapped in the head with a #7 snow
    shovel, so it's kind of hard.
    
    It is a clever response, but not a sensitive one [do I have to add
    IMHO?]
    
      Annie

    RE: diet-center and some programs
    
    It's pretty much been proved that very low calorie diets, and
    esp. certain diets in which you eat "their" food, can really wreak
    havoc with your metabolism. Each time you "starve" yourself, your
    body decides "You aren't doing *that* to me again!" and becomes even
    more efficient at storing fat.
    
    RE: food
    
    I've been thinking. (Always a bad sign) I wonder if certain people 
    (the efficient energy-storers) are especially sensitive to the
    "American diet" - in that a lot of the pre-packaged foods, etc. are
    lower in nutrition than their "natural-state" counterparts...SO, the 
    body of the efficient-energy-storer is sensitive to the decreased
    nutrition, and thus stores energy against a percieved starvation
    condition.
    
    Maybe this explains why lots of people who go on "all-natural" diets
    can eat tons of food, not diet, and their weight regulates at the
    proper "Set-point"....
    
    --DE
    

    re .112, Annie, Thanks.  It's nice to hear positive things about one's
    appearance on occasion. :-)
    
    I was feeling defensive yesterday because a male friend had told me
    that a buddy of his had told him that he didn't know what he saw in me
    since I'm so "old"!  BTW, the guy who said it is 3 yrs. older than me,
    and is balding with a beer-belly.  (Sandy C. would just *love* him!
    ha-ha!)  But, he wants to find a cute, sexy "babe" of 18-22 to have
    some fun with.  What a laugh.  "Old" as I am, I'd still rather take a
    vow of celibacy than touch *him* with a 20 ft. pole!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Annie YOU GOT IT EXACTLY RIGHT!!!! in .112:
    
    > ...but I don't want to look like you, I want to look like me!
    
    PERFECT!  Now, if I could only get to feeling like that ALL the time!
    (I do *most* of the time, I'm working on the rest... :-)
    
    Sara
    

    But, sigh, I'm sure he's out of my league and I'd go right in the 
    reject pile with you.  I mean after all, beer guts deserve 10s TOO ya 
    know and I'm no vernal poultry anymore!  (Uh, that's male beer guts and 
    female 10s in case anyone has been living somewhere out on Phobos for 
    the last millenium)
    
    Quasimodo, where ARE you?  I'm 40 next year - HURRY before it's too 
    late!!  This is my LAST SHOT!!!!
    
    ;^>
    
    S.

    Still, Confuscious say it's better to go to bed with old hen than
    pullet!  (Snark, snark)
    
    We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...

Fine wines and women improve with age.

I'm not so sure about men.

Bruce

    If you really want to get upset, read some of the entries in SINGLES!!
    The men want "Miss Perfect 10".  Puleeze, I don't really believe
    that every man that enters a note is in perfect shape himself, yet
    each and everyone stresses weight and looks.  GRRRRR!!!
    
    I admit to being approx 60 pounds overweight and losing it is a 
    major war, not a battle.  It all goes back to how I was raised,
    very bad eating habits.  
    
    As for being accepted by society, I'm very glad I'm involved in
    naturist actvities.  These people accept others for who you are,
    not what you look like, where you work or what you wear :-).  It's
    refreshing and relaxing to be among people like that.
    
    Linda
    

    
    Linda, I hold deep admiration for people involved in naturist
    activities.  I hope to cultivate a self-image healthy enough 
    to, if not participate in something that (to me) would be so 
    radical, get me to a place where I am completely comfortable 
    being nude even in front of my lover.
    
    Carla
    

    re:.123
    
       What's wrong with looking or wanting someone who is good looking?
    
       I have several friends that I love deeply, are great people, fun
    to be with, vastly intelligent, and that I would never have intimate
    relations with because to me they aren't attractive.  And please note
    that I said *to me*.  And I know the reverse is true as well.
    
       I may be shallow, but I won't have intimate relations with someone
    who doesn't turn me on physically, no matter how much I like them as
    a person.
    
    
    
    
                                       L.J.

    I don't agree with how it was worded, but it does seem true that
    there are more overweight people in USA than in Europe . 
    The Europeans are always telling me this too. (I have live in Europe
    for 5 yrs). I think part of it probably is America's obsession
    with losing weight makes people to self conscious and hung-up about
    eating. I also think it might be that European's WALK  a LOT
    more. There cities are designed for walking and ours are not.
    Most of my American friends also complain if I don't park my
    car right next to the where we are going
    

    I have heard from European friends that we have many more opportunities
    to buy greasy, fatty foods than they do.  Mickey D's and such are
    more prevelant over here than over there.
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

A friend of mine (non-DECCIE) just returned from 2 weeks in Germany (various 
places) and she said that she was amazed at the large numbers (and size, too) 
of the fat people she saw. She thought it was the large amount of fat in 
their diet -- sausage, etc.

So what can we conclude? (Nothing)

Bruce

    re .125, I agree with you.  I have no interest in having sex with
    people I find physically unattractive no matter how much I might love
    their personalities.  Afterall, sex is not supposed to consist of
    forcing oneself to do something physically repugnant.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .123, & .125, on the hand, I agree with .123, too!  Many of the
    singles ads are ridiculous.  Some of the men are looking for such
    specific qualities that it's laughable.  An example might be: "Looking
    for SWF, 5'7", WPH, auburn hair, green eyes, between 28-32 yrs. old,
    into scubba diving, white water rafting, FRP.  Must be financially
    secure, college grad with professional job & vivacious
    personality, etc. etc."  
    
    Lorna
     

    re.130
    
    >An example might be: "Looking
    >for SWF, 5'7", WPH, auburn hair, green eyes, between 28-32 yrs. old,
    >into scubba diving, white water rafting, FRP.  Must be financially
    >secure, college grad with professional job & vivacious
    >personality, etc. etc."  
    
    Whenever I read one of those my reaction is "Hey, ain't we all??!"
    
    ;-) ;-)
    
    dana     

    re:.130
    
       My reaction to those is, "If she was all those things she wouldn't
    be looking in the singles file!"  ;^)
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

    
    you aought see the ads that the wimmin put in there, looking fer Kevin
    Kostner lookalikes with the wealth of Trump ad and brains of Henry
    Kissinger...

    
    
    Don't forget being able to bench press a small foreign car.