Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Various horror scenarios:
    
    1) A large, strong woman aganist a smaller and/or younger man or
       boy.
    
    2) A woman who engages in sex with an unwilling male with another male
       serving as an accomplice (i.e. a physical threat).
    
    3) Male to male rape (from which no male, no matter how strong, is
       completely safe).
    
    It's depressing even to think about it.
    
    LArry 

Funny (not really), this topic is being discussed in another forum I
read.

Various ways of a woman raping a man have been discussed including:

- forced anal or oral penetration with fingers or objects

- putting a rubber band or other tight wrap about the base of the penis 
  (causes involuntary non-sexual erection.)

Also, the Ann Landers article talks about women raping men, but the 
title of this notes asks "how a man can be raped", and the obvious answer
to that question is "by another man."

D!

    Re. .1
    
    	This is the kind of reply that is disgusting and demeaning to men.
    Sexism is alive and well in this notesfile. I am offended and I think
    anyone who is truly against rape should be offened or is Ok to demean
    men but not women.
    
    			Wayne

    I have a hard time seeing how .3 is demeaning.  It reads like a biology
    lesson.
    
    Maybe the part where it says that men are raped by other men, but I
    thought that this type of thing has been going on in prisons for a long
    time.
    
    Now if the comment was "Men rape other men because there are no women
    around" THAT'S completely out of line, untrue, and demeaning.  But
    that's not what was said.
    
    Lisa 

    Lisa,
    
    He said ".1", not "-1".  And I agree.  I guess I don't see *anything*
    humourous in the topic, not matter who is getting raped.
    
    E Grace

    Dear Abby's response, when asked this question, was;
    
    "I guess he rose to the occasion."
    
    

Lighten up? About rape? No thanks. Yeah right. Let's all joke about it,
trivialize it, and maybe it will go away - or maybe victims will stop reporting
it, defense lawyers will feel free to abuse victims, and rapists will get the
message that their victims should just "lay back and enjoy it."

Feh.

	-- Charles

    Thanks Charles,
    
    
    	Some things do not have a lighter side and this is one of them.
    
    
    			Wayne

    RE:  The last few...
    
       I'm with Brown_Ro on this one.  There is nothing in life that
    can't be laughed at.  It doesn't trivialize it, it makes it more
    bearable.  Laughter does heal.
    
    >Sexism is alive & well uin this notesfile.
       Big surprise there! ;^)  Sexism and reverse sexism has been 
    alive and well in this conference for some time.  It is alive
    and well in almost every aspect of life.  Yes, it is horrible,
    but it's also true...IMHO, of coarse!
       
    
    
    
    
                                   L.J.

   Getting back to the origional subject.
    
    How does anyone of either sex get raped?  Unwillingly,
    everything else is a discussion of mechanics and anatomy!
    Isn't that what it's all about, forced sex?

  Peace,
  Allison

    > Isn't that what it's all about, forced sex?
    
    No - it's about power, and about violence. Rape is not about sex.
    
    	-- Charles

<    No - it's about power, and about violence. Rape is not about sex.

   Charles,
 
    I do agree with you.  It's a semantic thing for my part I worded
    it poorly.  I meant to express the idea that rape is violence in a
    sexual context.  It if were not, the crime would be assualt or
    battery. 

    
   Peace,
   Allison

    RE: .13 Allison
    
                        Rape has a "sexual context" only because its the
    *worst* thing you could do to another person.  If, in our society, the 
    most horrible thing you could do to another was to bite an ear off,
    then that what we would be seeing.  Rape is *SO* horribe only because
    of the emphases our society puts on sex and an incrediable ammount of
    misunderstanding.
    
    
    Dave

    Generally, I'm sorry I entered either reply.  
    
    Peace,
    Allison

    I agree that rape is certainly no laughing matter. I have to agree that
    the comment by Ann Landers was inconsiderate and crass.
    
    It must be a horrible thing for a man to be raped. I'd expect it'd
    cause as many nightmares as the man attacking woman version of this
    horrendous crime.
    
    Where would a man turn? At least we have support groups, in theory
    anyway. Cops have specialized training, so do hospital staffs, rape
    hotlines, rape crisis centers in dealing with a female who'se been
    raed but..what about the man?
    
    Kate

    re.10 >There is nothing in life that can't be laughed at.
    
    Ever attended the funeral of a friend who comitted suicide? 
    I frankly can't squeeze a god damned chuckle out of that. 
    
    >Laughter does heal.
    
    Maybe I don't _want_ to heal. Life inflicts honorable scars.
    Laughter is over-rated, IMO.
    
    Maybe the question is, "_Who_ has the right to laugh at victimization?"
    The victim? Yes. Non-victims? I don't think so.
    
    Dana

        I agree with both views here in regards to laughter.  Yes, 
    laughter can heal, no, it isn't over-rated.  But the difficulty
    is in the context.  It is not appropriate to laugh *at* something
    or someone, generally speaking (I can envision exceptions.)
    Stepping outside the limitations of humanity, however, I could also
    easily envision the "cosmic jokes" that can abound there...far 
    beyond the victimizations that we subject ourselves to and well into
    the bliss that resides there.  But for the most part, most of us
    aren't at those levels.  Therefore, it becomes inappropriate to
    blindly laugh at *everything.*  Use your heart, yes, but also use
    your head.
        As for Ann Landers, I saw that, too, and I agree that her response
    was very sexist and deprecatingly so towards men.  I hope she agrees
    and retracts her response.  While men do not have to face rape as a
    general course of a man's life (unlike females in our world) if
    and *when* it occurs, it is often far more devastating, precisely
    because of its rarity and more so because of the double shame attached.
    That is, a woman loses her power, but a man additionally loses his
    manhood (he is effectively emasculated.)
    
    Frederick
    

Anyone see "The Rape of Richard Beck"?  It was a TV movie a couple of months
ago about a sexist (and non sympathetic to rape victims) cop that gets raped
by a couple of (male) hoods.

It was good (as shlocky TV movies go) and they managed to turn around most
of the standard things that go along with a woman being raped.  For instance,
he got the "you asked for it" questions such as "What were you doing down
there alone anyway?" and "I heard a rumour that you have been going down there
to meet with those guys all the time - you liked it, right?"  His friends
at work are too embarassed to discuss it, and they try to get him to not
press charges because it will make everybody look bad.  Etc, etc.

Anyway, as I said, I thought it was well done, given the medium (I'm not a 
big fan of made-for-TV movies.)  Thought provoking, and I hope maybe it
managed to put rape into terms that some *men* in the viewing audience could
understand so that they would be more understanding of what women go through
so often.  

D!

    re:.16,.18
    
    Color me confused. What was wrong about Ann Landers' comments on
    the issue?  Now, *Abby's* comment (as quoted in .7) is loathsome,
    but Landers' comment (quoted in .1) was a straightforward relaying
    of certain facts.
    
    --- jerry

    re: .20  (Jerry)
    
         Sorry---got the sisters mixed up, I guess.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: 767.17
    
    >Maybe I don't _want_ to heal.
       Okay.  I don't agree with that, but I hear you.
    
    >Life inflicts honorable scars.
       I don't believe there's a single honorable thing about rape.
    
    >Ever attended the funeral of a friend who commited suicide.
       Sort of.  She died of a a voluntary drug overdose by mistake.
    Meaning she knew the drug was dangerous, but took it anyway.  Same
    thing in my book.
        Did I laugh?  Sort of.  She had been clean for over two years
    and only tried a little "just for old times sake".  It was the
    dose that killed her.  Irony has no limits.
    
    >_Who_ has the right to laugh at victimization?
        Not laugh *at*, laugh with.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

    Sometimes it's not forced, it's just statutory or in cases of
    diminished capacity.  Both of the latter would be considered
    rape.
    
    ed
    

    re: .23 ( the inimitable -d)
    
          I understand your point of view, and often I have done the
    same, but I would really like to make us aware of something...
    As a humanity, we have always nobilized struggle, pain, suffering,
    victimization, etc.  Even good old Job in that grand religious
    novel is somehow made second only to "God himself."  I think it
    is time that we, again as a humanity, cease "rewarding" (and I
    use this word very cautiously) misery.  
          I call this the "Queen for a Day" syndrome.  Do you remember
    that tv program (all right, so I'm aging myself...;-)  ? )  The 
    program had various people, women mostly, as I remember, who had
    various tales of woe to tell.  At the end of the show, the person
    who had suffered the most was rewarded with a refrigerator or
    washer and dryer, e.g.  I want to make it clear, I abhor this
    attitude.  We must find it within our collective minds to reward
    happiness and all it's cohorts---we must shy away from reinforcing
    pain and agony.
          Let me add, this is what separates pity from compassion.
    This is what separates empathy from sympathy.  This is what 
    distinguishes positive feelings and equality towards others versus
    anger or superiority.  
          I feel bad for others when I see them suffering.  Often I
    can empathize in perhaps my own way.  I wish to see them get out
    from whatever victimization they might be in.  But I will not
    sympathize with them.  I will not reward them for their pain.
    I will work very, very hard to avoid feeling "better than" them
    just because they are suffering and I'm not.  It's a very fine,
    tight line here.  It is very difficult, especially at first,
    knowing when to care and when it becomes "tough love."  It is
    equally difficult to rein in the negative ego to keep the "better
    thans" and the "worse thans" out of the way.  But it is doable.
    It can be done.  
          I do not think a person is better than another simply because
    of the scars they have developed, whether physical or emotional.
    Nor do I think someone is better than another because they have more
    money or were born in a certain country or have a certain background
    or a particular I.Q. or flawless skin or whatever...the same applies
    in reverse.  Again, compassion, caring, love, affection, etc. are
    all valuable.  And to have those feelings for another is wonderful.
    But to have those feelings *just because* that person has "suffered"
    is shallow and dangerous ground (do to reasons I gave earlier.)
          Consider your motivation.
    
    Frederick
    
          

    
    This topic touches a chord deep within my being and for me it isn't a 
    laughing matter.  Rape is rape whether your a man or a woman....mostly
    though it happens to women.  We all know it and most women fear the
    possibility of it touching their lives in some way.  In my case, I have
    a friend who was raped as a child by his babysitter.  The man 
    is in his early forties and the memory of that time in his life is NO 
    laughing matter.  Through therapy he has come to terms with his wounds and 
    has been able to deal with the memories that will always haunt him and 
    remind him of his abuse.
    
    I can relate to his pain having been subjected to the same trauma my
    self.....and I can tell you from a personal perspective it "ain't " no
    laughing matter.
    
    Those who know me, know me as a fairly easy going individual....I
    believe in the  goodness of the human spirit but I also believe  in the
    badness that occurs in every day life.  You need only read the
    newspapers to remind your self of that badness.  In many cases, it is a
    sense of humor that strengthens or resolve and will to endure.  Yes,
    laughter is theraputic.... and it does heal but there are certain
    kinds of badness that can't be laughed away with a sense of humor. 
    Those kinds of badness require forgiveness and letting go with love.
    
    Rape is one of them.
    
    In Peace and Sisterhood,
    Addie

    Very interesting replies to this subject matter. After reading all
    the arguments...I mean "responses"...to the basenote, I think I
    just wanted to add a little thought about HUMOR: 
    
    There are as many definitions of what humor *is* as there are individuals
    in the world. Certain subjects considered "TABOO" by one individual
    may be considered "FAIR GAME" by another. Some people enjoy Bill Cosby,
    others Sam Kinison. Some people enjoy Henny Youngman, others Andrew
    Dice Clay. Henny Youngman was once accused vehemently of giving
    Mother-in-Laws a bad rep because he used to put them down jokingly
    all the time. He is credited with originating that style of humor
    as well (as was reported on Entertainment Tonight a while back). 
    
    Some women hate Andrew Dice Clay's brand of humor, but when a female
    comedienne once did a *parody* of Clay, they (the women in the audience)
    roared with laughter, and I didn't hear the guys boo her, either.
    While *he* was offensive, a parody of his sexist brand of humor wasn't.
    Different strokes, people. Different strokes. 
    
    RAPE? The very word sends shivers down some people's spines. I know
    it does mine. As a male, I have often thought of what a demeaning
    and frightening situation it must be for such a crime to happen
    to *anyone*, male or female. But...not to be able to joke about it?
    To me, I would think that would almost be as emotionally detremental
    as the crime itself.
    
    I will admit, I have heard some "rape" humor that has made me grin
    or even all-out laugh. I don't think this makes me less of a person
    because I laughed at something that, as mentioned before, is considered
    "TABOO" by someone else's definition of acceptable humor. 
    
    People, in general (I repeat..."IN GENERAL") have the ability to
    find humor in whatever subject they care to discuss. There's humor
    to be found (*IF* one is looking) in Genocide, Homicide, Suicide, Rape, 
    Sodomy, Lepracy, Blasphemy, AIDS, GOD, SATAN, Nazis, South Africa,
    Iran/Iraq/Kuwait/Israel, Pestilence, Disease, Illiteracy, Poverty,
    the Homeless, Blacks, Slavery, Hispanics, Pregnancy, Abortion, Women...
    and yes...even Mother-In-Laws ;-) 
    
    I don't mind anyone telling me what they *find* to be offensive, as long
    as they don't inflict their views on me or make judgements against
    my personal views and/or tastes. 

    
    - .1
    
    You left out Father-In-Laws.  ;-)
    
    D.

    re-.29
    
    whoops, sorry ;-) 

    
    
    I am posting this for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    -Jody
    
    
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    I have personally met or corresponded with over 100 survivors of
    childhood sexual abuse (which is properly defined as rape). I do not
    remember one of them uttering (or writing) a word about being bettor
    off for having had the experience(s). Although it is theoretically
    possible that someone who survives such an experience(s), (I know of
    one who has been sexually abused more than 500 times) might feel better
    off for having been abused; as a practical matter it is _inconceivable_
    to me that anyone would in fact feel better off.

    My childhood sexual abuse stopped almost forty years ago. I am _still_
    not the better for it, I am _still_ not the stronger for it, indeed I
    am much weaker as a result of it.

    The process of recovery from abuse often either never ends or ends with
    premature death of one form or another. Neither of those will be true
    for me. Someday _will_ come a time when I can start living my life free
    of the influences of those childhood experiences. At that point I
    _will_ be able to say I am no longer being cheated. But there is no way
    to _ever_ make up for the half a century of life that has been stolen
    from me. 
    
    There is no way I will _ever_ be able to say that I am better for the
    experience. And if ever I _am_ stronger, 

		    it is a strength I did not seek,
		    it is a strength I do not want.

    re: .31 (anonymous)
    
          I stared at the screen for a few moments...I was unsure 
    whether to respond to what I read or not.  To be sure, the pain
    you have felt is obvious in what you have written.  I feel badly
    about the pain you have endured.  
          I hope you will understand when I say that I do not believe
    in the axiom "no pain, no gain."  I believe that is not the best
    way to grow.  I believe we are better off attempting to grow by
    laughter and fun and magic and all sorts of other foreign-sounding
    words.  
          I wish to comment on your belief, however.  As was recently
    said to those of us in attendance at a seminar I went to:
    "Yes, it is true that *they* [whoever] denied you your childhood;
    yes, it may also be true that *they* denied you your adolescence;
    however, now it is *YOU* who is denying yourself your adulthood."
    I believe it is possible to forgive oneself one's past...I believe
    it is possible to find new venues and new realities.  As a few
    other notes have indicated, there are positives that *can* be found
    in any situation.  Sometimes one has to look hard and deeply in
    order to find a morsel of positivity, but it can be found.  I balk
    at making all negatives sound as though they were positive, hence
    my "Queen for a Day" response yesterday.  But *once a reality has
    occurred* THEN it is important to acknowledge it, forgive it, and
    THEN look for the change...from a negative into a positive.
         Whether you let go of the past, which is dragging you down, or
    not, is totally up to you.  No one else will do it and no one else
    can.  You must be WILLING to let it all go.  Otherwise it will
    putrify even worse than it has.  Forgiving others is the hardest
    forgiveness that there is.  Forgiving yourself, however, is essential.
    That process must happen in order for you to become free of it.
    How does one forgive oneself or others?  I'm sorry, but I do not
    have the space in here to write about it...it's an intricate process
    and not a simple one...although it's not difficult (in terms of
    the process.)  I have used it and was *Astounded* at the results
    (in my case, in forgiving my ex-wife and in forgiving myself in
    that regard) so I know it works.  But this also involves stretching
    belief systems...perhaps farther than you are currently *willing*
    to.
         I believe that it can happen for you once you are totally
    willing to let it go.  If you look at the alternatives, there is
    no other course that will work.  This then becomes a virtually
    transcendant process, in that case.  I hope for you that you really
    reach for the strength that it takes to tackle this willingness.
    And that you succeed.  
    
    Frederick
      

.31, anon
I wish I had some comfort to offer you.  I wouldn't presume to try to tell you
how, but I hope you find your way through to peace, and further to joy.
Sara

    re: .32
    You might want to make it a little clearer what the victims of rape
    or childhood sexual abuse are supposed to be forgiving themselves for.  
    Not clear to me, but then I've never been to one of those seminars, nor 
    have I read any of the "how to heal" type books (yet).
    
    re: honorable scars.  
    Seems to me that an emotional scar is only an honorable scar
    if the bearer feels that way about it.  It seems just as valid
    for someone to view their scar as a hideous thing that they would 
    rather they didn't bear and that they were worse off for having had
    forced upon them.  I suspect, though I don't know, that healing is
    possible while maintaining either viewpoint.
    
    					- Vick

    re: .34 (Vict)
    
          Fair question.  The biggest issue here is likely to be
    what has come to be called "shame."  There is a horrible stigma
    around this...feelings that putrify so far that one actually
    *becomes* the shame (in their mind, of course.)  They become
    the despot, the hopeless, the scourge of mankind...(not at all,
    of course, but in their own minds this is what they see.)  Sometimes
    there is what has been called "double shame."  That is, not only shame 
    for having had the event happen to them (for which one, especially as a 
    child/adolescent, is something that they feel they deserved as
    punishment or as retribution for being defective, etc. and for which
    they therefore *blame themselves*) but also because often the 
    child/adolescent finds a source of pleasure in the event.  Please
    note, this pleasure is generally because it often becomes the only
    source of attention in the child/adolescent's life, and it therefore
    becomes both wanted/hated.  So, though this can be expounded upon,
    I think you can see what the process is.  As you can see, the victim
    places the blame upon his/herself.  Later on, as a grownup, the blame
    gets "rightfully" placed upon the other person, but, unfortunately,
    the child/adolescent within still carry the weight of the self-blame
    and carry this impact onto the "grownup" (and I distinguish between
    "grownup" and adult.)  It is here where individuals get stuck.  
         Not only do they blame the offender or perpetrator of the 
    wrong-doing, they still also blame themselves.  It is here where
    self-forgiveness plays a major and vital role.  Please note that
    it is not enough to simply mouth the words "I forgive myself."  The
    self-forgiveness process is more detailed and involves working with
    both the inner child and adolescent within (in this and similar
    cases.)  
         Eventually, to truly escape the tyranny of this past, forgiving
    the wrong-doer becomes valuable.  But that's beyond the scope of this
    situation, at this time.
         I hope this adds some clarification for you.
    
    Frederick
    

    
    Dear Anon,
    
    I don't think you have to forgive anyone.  I don't think you have to
    do anything.  You survived, and that is honorable.  There is nothing
    good in what happened to you, no good in anyone's suffering.
    What is good, I think, is that so many of us do survive our
    victimization.  Many of us find ways to become empowered, to take back 
    (sometimes slowly, sometimes not completely) the control that
    was taken from us.  That empowerment is something to celebrate.
    
    I believe that the one who is victimized has responsibility only to
    herself/himself.  I do admire those who can go on and speak about what
    happened in the hope of touching, educating others, but I believe the
    survivor has no debt, no obligation to help others.  The only thing I
    would ever ask of someone who has suffered such horrible abuse is that 
    s/he work to love her/himself enough to hang on -- to survive. 
    
    Justine
    

    
    
    ps  I think the "forgiveness" Frederick was talking about has to do
    with the deep shame that many survivors of rape and child sexual abuse
    often feel.  But I didn't hear "anon" talking about shame, so I felt
    the plea for forgiveness (especially self forgiveness) was a little out
    of place.  I'm sure it's part of the work of recovery for many
    survivors, but I think it's important to avoid instructing anyone on
    what s/he should do as a survivor of sexual violence - I think we
    should listen to what s/he needs.
    
    Justine

    re: .36 (Justine)
    
          Since I haven't left this notesfile yet since my previous
    entry, I will add this...and then back away for a while...
    
          I respect your opinion.  Keep it if it works for you.
    For me, it is not enough to survive.  Anyone who is alive is
    a survivor, whether living in a castle or living with tubes in
    their nose barely hanging on.  IT is not noble to me to call myself
    a survivor.  Surviving is no big deal.  I do not wish to "survive."
    I WANT TO LIVE!  I want to BE ALIVE!  With gusto, with enthusiasm,
    with a desire to see, hear, smell, taste and have and do and learn
    about more and more and more!
          You speak of love.  Do you really think someone can love fully
    if they still carry the baggage around of the things that are still
    rotting inside themselves?  How much love do you think that person
    can do?  Can they receive love, openly, embracingly?  Can they really
    love someone else if they don't first love themself?  (I know, I know,
    "sic" all over the place...I hate saying him/herself or his/her, etc.)
    Yes, I too, commend those who have made it to this point.  What they
    have endured may well have been of the most horrendous type imaginable.
    But I won't throw a scrap off the dinner table at them and say
    "here, eat this and survive."  I say, "wash up so that you can feel
    comfortable, then come and join us at the banquet and really live."
         And how is it, Justine, that one goes about taking his or her
    power?  Simply by playing Leo Buscaglia with the world and saying
    "love, love, love?"  'Many of us find ways to become empowered'
    you say.  But you don't say how.  Well, self-forgiveness is one
    very major way to become empowered.  *By taking full responsibility
    for doing it oneself to and for oneself!*  If you can forgive 
    yourself, you can do anything!
         So, as I said, stand by your reply if it works for you.  I 
    stand by mine.
    
    Frederick
    

    This is from a member of our community who wishes to be anonymous at
    this time.  Justine
    ==================================================================
    
    

It doesn't bother me today.

It didn't bother me yesterday.

I don't know whether it will bother me tomorrow or not. 

But I do know that sooner or later, no matter what I do or what I don't do, the
thoughts, memories, and feelings will come creeping back to haunt my mind. 

<<It doesn't bother me today.

<<It didn't bother me yesterday.

<<I don't know whether it will bother me tomorrow or not. 

<<But I do know that sooner or later, no matter what I do or what I don't do, the
<<thoughts, memories, and feelings will come creeping back to haunt my mind. 
    
    Great statements!!!!  I was raped over 22 years ago, at the age of 14,
    by a teacher.  I can go for months without it crossing my mind and then
    something will trigger the memories and I live through it again as if
    it was actually happening.  I've had all the therapy.  I've read all
    the books.  It DOES get better, but it NEVER, NEVER goes away.
    
    In my own not so humble personal opinion, those who discuss this
    subject humorously obviously have little or no understanding of the
    trauma it leaves behind and are themselves, sick individuals.
    
    	Greg

    No, maybe not sick, but definitely sickENING!!!
    
    Bonnie

    I know a man, that managed to be molested throughout childhood.
    
    He remains incapable of handling physical relationships to 
    this date.
    
    I imagine, that although I had previously considered rape only
    in the female perspective, after speaking with him, and comming
    to know him for a while, I realized that the victimization involved
    with rape was not strictly the bailiwick of women.
    
    I guess I just assumed that the nature of the hostility had
    to be sourced from men.  I had also neglected to consider
    how universal the hurt/violation of it was.
    
    At one time I really considered it impossible for a man to
    be raped.  There were, once again, more things in heaven
    and earth... than were dreamt of ... in my limited scope
    of understanding.
    
    Cindi

    Sitting on the Suffolk County (Boston area) Grand Jury, I heard
    testimony on 6 rape cases.
    
    In two of the 6 cases, the victims were male.
    
    According to testimony given in the 2 male victim cases:
    In one case the attack was at gunpoint, by a male, as an 
      "afterthought" during a middle-of-the-night break&entry/armed-robbery.
    
    In the other case, the attack was by a male and female, acting
      together.  The victim was first beaten into submission.  
      The female was an older relative of the victim; the male
      was her her boyfriend.  The victim was about 14 years old.