Conference turris::womannotes-v3

First, Kathy, I have to say:  GET A NEW GYNECOLOGIST!!!!  Yours was *totally*
out of line talking that way to you.  If she believes that getting sterilized
is a bad idea for you, she (as a doctor) is obligated to tell you so, but to
say you are "stupid" and to totally invalidate your feelings is not at all
the actions of a professional.

Anyway, my own general opinions are that 25 years old is too young to make
irreversible life-altering decisions.  This means that, in general, I don't
think 25 years olds should get married, have children, be sterilized or get
tattoos.  [ :-) ]  I think that they are just too young to be able to predict
what they will want in 10 or 15 years.  (And getting sterilized is more
permanant than getting married.)

That said, I also believe that 25 year olds (and 20 year olds and 15 year
olds and 58 year olds) are people, and every person has a right to make hir
own decisions.  I might believe that someone will regret a particular decision
s/he has made, but it is still their decision, and while I might advise against
it, I will support hir right to make it.  After all, s/he is inside hir own
mind, and no one know shir better than hirself, and it would be pretty damn
presumptuous for me to say that I know better what hir choices should be than
hir.

So, I think a doc is obligated to advise against if s/he believes it is a bad
idea, but once that advice is given (and rejected) then it is up to the person
involved and the doc should be supportive.

One thing I want to point out - you say you have had problems with the pill.
While it will certainly be a load off your mind to not have to worry about
pregnancy if you get "fixed", but since you still have to use condoms to 
prevent disease transmission (I do hope you are using safer sex) you will
still be using a form of birth control (one that is actually quite effective
when used correctly.)  If you were in a long-term permanant relationship,
then getting your tubes tied would mean that you were free from worries about
all forms of birth control - but since you aren't, and you have to (should!)
use a condom anyway, the advantage is less.

D!

    Kathy
    
    I second D!'s recommendation about getting a new gynecologist and
    agree that yours was totally out of line.
    
    Almost 16 years ago - the summer I was 30 I had my tubes tied and
    I have never regretted it. In my case I had had a difficult labor
    and delivery and was showing some problem with my leg veins that
    made the pill risky. At the time we had three children, #2 and #3 by
    adoption. The idea of going through anothe C section with a 5 year
    old and two toddlers was one thing that made me decide that I didn't
    want to have another pregnancy.
    
    Since then I have adopted two more children. So chosing to be
    sterilized does not preclude having a child later in your life
    if you so desire.
    
    I would encourage any woman who truely feels that she does not want
    to get pregnant ever (or ever again) to have their tubes tied. It
    has  been wonderful not to have to worry about the side effects
    of the pill or the problems of IUDs for the past 16 years.
    
    and D! about making decisions at 25 ;-) .... by 25 I had been married
    2 1/2 years, completed my M.A. and had a baby.
    
    ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    I don't think you are stupid to want a tubal ligation.
    
    I think saying 'never have' on the basis of having attained 25 years of
    age is short sighted.  That being said, I _still_ don't think you are
    stupid, nor do I imply immaturity on your part.  I just know that my
    views on more than one or two things have shifted dramatically since I
    was 25 [this does not imply maturity, merely change].
    
    The response you got from your doctor is sadly typical.  I hate that.
    
    Right and wrong are not relevant concepts in your decision; hence, no
    one can invalidate your feelings.
    
    There are a million little posers that folks will [and probably have]
    throw your way, the most popular being "what if you meet Mr.Right and
    he's dying to have kids"  Dumb, question, that ... given that Mr.Right
    for you wouldn't want kids, but I digress.
    
    Bottom line, Kath ... if this is what you want, this is what you should
    have.  It's your choice and your life to live.  Even if you _did_ later
    regret this choice, I feel certain that you have what it takes to live
    by your decisions and the reality you create for yourself.
    
      Annie
    

    It sounds like you've thought a lot about it before making your
    decision.  It also sounds like an adult decision and being responsible
    for yourself, your body and your life.  I support you in your choice
    and wish you well.
    
    Hugs,
    Barb

    Kathy:

    In my opinion it is too soon to make such a decision.
    An awful lot in MY life -and in the life of many young adults- changed
    between 25 and 30+. 
    
    (just as an example...
    When I was 25, I had not yet met the woman who has since become my
    wife. Had I decided at 25 to get myself "cut", I almost certainly 
    would not be married to the woman I am married to -and that is
    unthinkable- and we have been married to for 20+ years. (the ONLY
    condition she established for our marriage was that we have children, I
    didn't want children -among other things because I was afraid of the
    responsibility). In spite of the limitations I feel I have had as a
    father, our daughters are better off as a result of me as a father. And
    I am VERY, VERY glad I am a parent. (even when feeling most negative
    about the world)
    

    Aaahhhhh, kath, a topic dear to my heart, as you well know!  (*8
    
    I had my tubes tied when I was 23.  Do I regret it?  NO!  Have I *ever*
    regretted it?  NO!  I was married at the time to a man 13 years my
    senior, and my gynecologist *did* bring up the possibility of the
    marriage not lasting, and was I sure I wasn't just doing this because
    my husband didn't want children?  This was said in a very
    non-judgemental manner, and was just brought up to ensure that I had
    thoroughly thought the matter through.  I said "I can not stand
    children, and if I had any I would probably hurt them.  I think it is
    only fair, given that, that I not have any."  (Please, those of you who
    adore children, no flames, okay.  This is *my* life, and I am being
    honest about *my* feelings.)  
    
    That was it.  He did ask to have a consultation with my husband and me
    together.  I suppose he didn't want to run the risk of being sued by
    some guy who was desperate to have kids.  Considering the horror
    stories I had heard from older women, I was happy that that was all he
    asked of me.
    
    Throughout, I was treated with dignity and respect; I expected no less.
    Kathy, not only do I suggest you get another gyn, if she is part of an
    HMO, I would talk to member services about her.  Where does she get off
    telling *any* patient that they are stupid?!!!!
    
    Good luck, lady.  Please keep me (us) posted.
    
    hugs in advance for any molehills that other people try to make into
    mountains,
    
    E Grace

    Kath, ditto on another gyn, ditto on the risks of an irrevokable
    decision, ditto on your right to make such a decision without being
    belittled for it!
    
    If you are (rhetorical here) sure you never want children then this is
    the best decision you could make.  I have recently been an observer of
    a situation where an unplanned pregnancy caused havoc because one
    partner feels raped at being forced to become a parent, and the other
    simply could not bear an abortion.  So given your feelings on the
    subject, do what's right for you.
    
    Sara

    see also:
    
    womannotes-V1
    146 - do you ever want children?
    784 - choosing not to have children
    811 - advice needed: best birth control
    
    womannotes-V2
    111 - birth control survey
    248 - birth control methods
    
    human_relations
    360 - opting for no children
    
    -Jody
    

    
    I hated children for much of my life. Couldn't stand em.
    This was true well into my 20's. Then something happened when
    I reached 33 or so. My outlook changed, I felt a bit more mature,
    and suddenly seemed to think kids were actually cute and 
    might have some socially redeeming value. I also started to
    think that I finally had it in me to be able to raise and guide
    a child or two through life as a decent parent.
    
    I won't offer any advice to the basenoter. I'm only entering
    this to show that for me, my views changed dramatically between
    25 and 35 or so.
    
    								Hank

    
    The following reply is from a member of the community who
    wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    _____________________________________________________________
    
    
    
Kathy,

I'm 26, single, allergic to spermicides, and have experienced nasty
side effects on the pill that I've been told may be endangering my
long-term health (and possibly my ability to carry children).  I 
regard kids primarily as a nuisance.  Boy, do I know how you feel.

The one thing that's kept me from getting sterilized - and I regard my
decision as quite firm - is that I might someday want children.  Mind 
you, the thought that I might someday get teary-eyed at the sight of a 
screaming toddler with a runny nose seems absolutely *ludicrous* right 
now, but I can't rule out that I might get rip-roaring bored with my 
lifestyle when I'm 40 and decide that I want to inflict my fingerpainting 
style on the next generation.  Stranger things have happened.  However, I 
must admit that on those days when the side effects seem to be eclipsing 
the rest of my life, I wonder whether this isn't a stupid decision after
all.

I would ask yourself the following questions: if you weren't allergic
to spermicides and could take the pill with no side effects whatsoever,
would you still choose sterilization?  If the answer is no, I'd explore
other options, such as Norplant or an IUD.  Depending on the regularity
of your cycle and how you feel about abortion, I might even explore some
of the more effective rhythm methods (you'd be surprised), possibly in 
tandem with plain latex condoms.  The last thing you want is for you to 
change your mind about children 15 years down the road, when there is an 
array of safe and effective birth control methods on the market that you 
could have used... except that you've been sterilized.

Or, does that really not bother you, not because you don't like children
but because you'd rather adopt?  If that's your reaction, keep in mind 
that at 40, most agencies will consider you too old.  That means that
you'll be limited to other channels, such as adopting a physically
challenged child or one with psychological problems, adopting an older 
child, or a child from a foreign country... if you're lucky.

I agree with the others that your gyn was way, way out of line in being
judgemental.  But in your shoes, I don't think (and note that this is
*not* definite) I'd get sterilized right now.  I can answer this very 
honestly because I am in a very similar pair.  We both have my sympathies :-).

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

	- anon

    isn't there also something less draconian than a ligation that is
    significantly reversible? 
    _Tying_ the tubes as an example?
    I sort of remember that being a male option back in the 50s, but that
    is a very long time ago, and it wasn't of much consequence to me then
    And if my memory is accurate there were some spontaneous 'untyings'
    that manifested themselves as pregnancies.
    
    
    				h

    Kathy,
    
    First and formost, and like the others have said... 
    
    	FIRE that _DOCTOR_!
    
    On the same line, why in the world do you need a second opinion?
    Do you have some special situation beyond what you described that
    makes the surgury difficult?  Personally I think the doctor wanted
    to get rid of you so (s)he didn't have to be involved.
    
    I understand having to "play the game" to get what you want though.
    You shouldn't have to.  You should be informed (by the doctor) but
    not judged.  It's your decision, your life, and you suffer the risks
    either way.  Your age has little to do with your decisions.
    
    I understand options in life, this one is available to you.  No
    doctor should be able to exercise that level of control in your
    life.

    peace,
    Allison

    I have had two women friends in my life who decided *very* young
    to never have children and followed through on that decision.  One
    of them went the tubal ligation route in her early 20's, got married
    and subsequently divorced, and at age 35+ was happy as a clam that
    she had made the correct decision.  The second married a man who
    had 3 children by a previous marriage.  I don't know what they did
    about birth control, but she told me that all the "mothering" she
    wanted to do was amply fulfilled through her step children.
    
    Absolutely, positively, contact patient services at the HMO and
    complain about how the gyn treated you.  (I suspect I know which
    HMO you joined.  If I'm right, I've had problems with them in the
    past about a number of gyn issues and have told their patient services
    about those complaints.)  Be alert that the HMO *might* deny you
    the operation, leaving you to pay for it yourself :-(.
    
    It may take some work, and much gritting of teeth, but you should,
    eventually, be able to get the procedure done.  Meanwhile, vent
    here.  This is one of the places where what should be straight forward,
    isn't.
    
    Alison

    Almost any surgery has to have to get a second opinion in order to
    be covered at maximum rates under DEC's insurance plans.
    
    --bonnie

    I got a tubal ligation done at age 31. I had been on the pill for 11
    years, following the birth of my son. During one of those intervals
    when my gyn recommended I not take the pill for a couple of months, to
    "let my system rest", as it were, I had a pregnancy scare. I decided
    then that there was no point in continuing to pump drugs into my body,
    I didn't want any more children, and I got the tubal done. I've never
    regretted it. It *did* take a bit of talking to convince the gyn who
    was tagged to do the surgery that indeed I knew what my mind was on
    this issue (he was with an HMO that shall remain nameless), but I did
    prevail.
    
    Lynn

Wow! I can't believe a doctor would talk to someone like that, but I know they
do. Anyway, last year when I discussed tubal ligation with my doctor, he
asked if it was something I had thought about, and said he wanted to have
a meeting with me and my husband together to discuss it. He said it was the
way to go if I was *positive* that I do not want children(as opposed to the 
pill or less secure means). He did say that he could not perform the surgery 
at my current weight, and that I should come back -30 pounds or so. 

But the story goes on....I didn't lose the weight, and now I am having doubts..
(sure....for 25 years I did not want kids and now some stupid biological
time bomb has gone off now that I'm almost 27.) I guess the point I'm trying
to make is, up till a year ago, when people told me that I would change my 
mind(and believe me, I heard it millions of times) I thought they were 
just giving me lip service, and was very offended. I still don't think anyone
was right to tell me I was stupid, or that they *knew* I would change. 

It wasn't the pressure that has given me doubts, though. I can't explain it, 
just something deep inside...

Anyway, just from my experience, I would say wait a little while longer.

And in the meantime fire that gyn!

dee

    
    The following reply is from a member of the community who wishes
    to remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
*********************************************************************

Hi,

I CERTAINLY agree that you should get another gynecologist.  No health
care provider should call your opinion "stupid."  Even if you and
your health care provider "agree to disagree", well, then if it were me,
which it is not, then I would still look for a provider who agreed.

But on to your main question about experiences, retrospectives, etc.:

In my late 20's, divorced several years, with two young children whom
I loved (and still love) dearly, I felt overwhelmed.  I never intended
to be a single parent;  I had intended to have several more children,
in that "happy family" that, well, didn't work out.  I chose to divorce,
for my sake and for the sake of the children.  The divorce the best 
decision I ever made in my entire life.

I dated fairly actively, but took my responsibilities as a parent *very*
seriously.  I didn't expect a "first date" to include the children, but
if any relationship was going to go anywhere at all, it was going to
include, early on, hiking with the children, visiting the zoo with the 
children, movies and dinner with the children, etc.  [I "agreed to
disagree" with other single mothers I knew then who seemed to place
priorities on the boyfriend rather than the children, but that is not
the issue here].

Birth control obviously became an issue, and this was long before the
"safe sex" priorities of the 80's and 90's.

I decided to have a tubal ligation.  My gynecologist asked all the right
questions (we had had very good rapport for a couple of years), and I
had all the right answers ("right" from my perspective, as well as that
of many others) -- already had children, didn't want more, loved those
I had, etc.

I had a tubal ligation.

About 10 years later, I started being sorry.  I am VERY sorry now.
Not because there is or was a "Mr. Right" who *needed* children, although
that *has* been an occasional issue over the years.  *I* wish I had more
children.  I would have liked a second family, as it were.

And then I think:  would I really want to do all that child care *again*???
Well, yes, if I could, I would.

And I tried!  I had a second operation in an attempt to reverse the first.
Unfortunately, the first surgery had been performed in a way that
minimized the chance of success of reversal.  It could have been done
differently, but reversal would NEVER have been guaranteed...just higher
likelihood of success.  The original ligation was almost mini-surgery.
The attempt to reverse was major surgery with special micro-equipment.

By the way, I am NOT disagreeing with your reasons for not wanting children,
although they are different reasons than the reasons I had for having the
operation.  YOUR decisions are appropriate for YOUR life!  But some
decisions can be changed.  And others are PERMANENT.

Marrying my first husband was the worst decision I ever made (so far,
anyway...:-) in my life.  Having the tubal ligation was the second worst.
I never actually thought of it that clearly before writing this just now.

Good luck!

    One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier reply was that it is now 11
    years later, and I have not changed my mind at all.  I don't think age
    necessarily has much to do with the decision.  IMO
    
    E Grace

>I don't think age
>    necessarily has much to do with the decision.  IMO

Ijust wanted to point out (in case anyone understood) that I don't think it
is a maturity issue, or that 25 year olds aren't adult enough to make big
decisions.

Just that, the younger you are, the longer you have to live with your
"permanant" decisions (because, of course, permanant means "for the rest of
your life.")  If you make a decision at 35 to have your tubes tied, you
have perhaps 10 years left of reasonable child-bearing age, and therefore
only 10 years that you have to live with your decision (and possibly to
decide it was wrong.)  If you tie them at 25 years, that's *20* years during
which you might change your mind.

Also, I think the 20's, like teenage years, are a time of MUCH change. I
know lots of people whose views on such important issues as children,
marriage, religion, career and orientation have practically reversed during
their 20's.  it isn't so much immaturity as just a high rate of change.

D!

    Of course age doesn't NECESSARILY have much to do with the decision
    
    

The following repy is from a member of the community who wishes
to be anonymous....

Bonnie J
=wn= comod

********************************************************************



    I knew when I was 12 years old that I never wanted to have children of
    my own (had a full-time babysitting job that summer!).  I had my tubes
    tied when I was around 30 after 13 years on the pill.  Now, 15 years
    later, I have never regretted my decision.  I'm amazed that you were
    called "stupid" by a woman in this day and age.  Find a new gyn!  And
    good luck.

    Hello Everyone!  I'm new.
    
    Re:0
    
      The best form of birth control in todays time, is to have no SEX at
    all.
    
    Lorenzo
    

    Um, Lorenzo, if I recall correctly, you're married. If you don't want
    to have children this year, do you plan on kissing your wife every
    night and rolling over and sleeping?

    -d
    
    Years ago, when tubal ligations were done by actually tying them
    off with sutures, there were cases of women whose tubes reconnected
    or at least opened up enough to allow pregnancy.
    
    A friend of a friend of mine had at least two kids after her first
    'tubal'.
    
    Bonnie

    I have friends who have a Vasectomy Baby (she was born about
    18 years ago).  The second vasectomy was "on the house".
    College education (etc.) was *not* "on the house."
    
    That pregnancy caused more than a minor bit of distress until
    the yet-to-be-sure-how father got tested!  Classic case of
    "but honey, I HAVEN'T been with anyone else!" and "Yes, I
    WANT to believe you, but...but..."

Some words from one who ended up childless by accident. It's not the end of the
world if you can't have kids. I've never been able to understand those who went
crazy if they couldn't conceive. On the other hand, 25 is young and you could
change your mind before menopause. At 41 I still can't quite bring myself to
get sterilized. And it's not like it's very likely I'll be in a situation to
have a child. Of course, I don't have your mindset on this either, I'd wanted a
kid when I was 25. That's when I was trying to get pregnant. 

Another issue is safe sex. It's probably going to be a *big* incentive not to
bother with a condomn if you know you aren't going to get pregnant. liesl

    ditto previous 20+ responses, time for a new gyn, the one you currently
    have is playing the "all knowing doctor" and "ignorant patient"
    scenario, and who needs to deal with that attitude?   Maybe once her 
    $$$$$ starts dropping she'll wonder why and have herself a major 
    "attitude" adjustment.
    
    You know this is not a "change my mind in a few months" activity.
    I want to have 1 child and then fix it permanently, the rest I'll 
    adopt (as many as I can support - I like kids! - I have always wanted 
    a boy for each letter in the alphabet and a girl in each letter in the
    alphabet).   
    
    You are the best judge of what is right for you.  Good luck!
    
    Miriam 
    

    Re:24
    
    You know, I use to be single too, and what ever I did, I had to pay the
    price.  But I'z married now! So if my wife happens to become pregnant,
    WE won't abort him or her...we'll (L)ove that child. There is no need
    for that child to lose his/her life, because of MY "Weakness". And I
    DO believe, that there's a BIG difference between "Having SEX", and
    Making (L)ove.
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

    D! sweetie...I did not intend to make it a maturity issue.  I was just
    responding to the replyers that stated that they had not wanted
    children when they were in their 20's, then changed their minds.  My
    response was just that it is also possible to make the decision in your
    teens, and never change it.  That's all.  In my experience, age has
    little to do with maturity, anyway.  (*8  I mean, *really* would a
    "mature" 33 year old (okay, nearly 34) get so much enjoyment out of
    writing silly little hugs?  (*8
    
    
    E Grace

    I had a vasectomy some years back, maybe in my mid-30's.  Rocky
    childhood, didn't want to inflict something similar on another being.  
    Have had an occasional twinge of maybe-if-I-had, but there are enough
    people around.  Have had some pain in scrotum when tubes wind up with
    hydraulic pressure with noplace to go, makes sex (or lack of it)
    somewhat painful.  The physician (male) asked paternal questions and
    practically threw a fit because I wouldn't take a sedative for the
    procedure, which was performed under local anesthesia.
    
    Wind up using a condom anyway because my SO doesn't like runny crotch
    from semen.
    
    No real long term regrets, no magic solutions, either.
    
    J

Hey, there is a much less frustrating way to *guarantee* no pregnancy than
abstience, much less trouble than birth control and much less drastic than
sterilization...

But I wouldn't want to come across as evangelical or anything... ;-)

D!

    I dunno about mature 33 year olds, E - but I know a mature 46 year
    old that does...
    
    BJ
    
    ;-)

D! - I take it this is from the Stephen Friend (sp?) "secret secretion" school
of thought?























For those not in the know, Stephen Friend (sp?) was (still is, to my knowledge)
a state congresscritter in Pennsylvania.  There was some public outcry
after he contended in one congressional debate that during a rape, a
woman secretes a substance which prevents her from getting pregnant.

>D! - I take it this is from the Stephen Friend (sp?) "secret secretion" school
>of thought?

Not at all!!!

No, this method really and truly works.  Only about 10% of the population
uses it as this time, but as public acceptance of this method grows, I think
more and more people will find it, uh, desireable.

;-)

D!

	Gee, D!, I use that method too.  100% effective, with no
	irksome side-effects, no hassle, and no wet spot either.

	C.

>and no wet spot either.

I beg to differ.

D!

	Oh baby, I like it when you beg!

	Carla (who believes Spring has arrived early in Seattle)

Kath,

Go for it, gyn! (and get a supportive doctor!!!)

     Hugs,

        Carol

    My own mind has changed between the time I was 25 and now (37).
    But it was in the other direction. At 25, I wanted to have kids.
    At 37, I don't. And if my mind changes *again* in the future,
    there's always adoption.
    
    I've always thought about getting a vasectomy, but haven't looked
    into very seriously. Don't know why. Laziness to some degree, I
    guess, given that it's not been a *crucial* issue.
    
    At any rate, as far as that gynecologist goes... have you considered
    that *maybe* she's playing the adversary to make sure that you are
    firm in your own mind that this is what you want?  Even if she is,
    it can be said that her "bedside manner" leaves something to be
    desired, but it could still be the way that she approaches such
    things, and it doesn't mean that she won't be supportive once she's
    convinced that yes, you *do* want to do such a "stupid thing" for
    reasons that you consider valid.
    
    --- jerry

    re .0 I don't belong to an HMO, but if i did, the first time the
    Doctor called me "stupid" I would have been in the managers 
    office _demanding_ that I be placed under care of a different
    doctor. "Cretin" would probably be the politest word I would use
    when asked why.

    
    RE.0
    	
    Tubal ligation is a permanent procedure, BUT it does not mean
    you cannot have any more kids ever again. Thanks to IVF (In vitro
    fertilization - egg and sperm meet ina test tube). 
    
    Yes, it is great (more that great) not have to worry about
    birth control. I have my tubes tied last September, when my
    second child was born. Unfortunately, my second daughter died
    before Christmas. So, we are looking into IVF. 
    
    So, it is permanent but not hopeless!!!
    
    
    
    Eva.

    Hi Kath!
    
    My advice and story:
    
    1.  get another doctor in the HMO and the 2nd opinion.  I wouldn't
    trust the 1st doctor to actually do the procedure, not with her
    attitude.
    
    2.  Some tubal ligations involve cauterizing the tubes shut.  This is
    the method my doctor used.  I told him to burn the h*ll out of them, as
    i didn't want any more children (i have 1).
    
    3.  I was on welfare at the time, so had to sign a release and wait 30
    days before the procedure was performed.  It was exactly 30 days after
    signing the form.  (in virginia) If i had been married, my husband
    would have had to sign the form too.
    
    4.  I was 30, but when i was 23 i looked into having the procedure 'cus
    i didn't want kids.  then i accidentally got pregnant, had some
    bleeding which i thought were periods, and by the time i figured out
    that i was pregnant, it was too late for an elective abortion.
    
    so your age doesn't have anything to do about how you feel.
    
    be strong!  demand your rights!!
    
    yours in sisterhood
    
    sue

    Re .43
    
    Uh, just a nit, but don't count so readily on using IVF as a backup 
    in case you change your mind after having a tubal ligation.  There's 
    only about a 20% chance of success, and the procedure is not exactly 
    fun.  I don't think I'd look forward to surgery, potentially multiple
    times, to try to conceive as a good back-up in case you change your 
    mind about wanting children.  And adoption is not something that you
    just decide you want to do and you get a baby in a short amount of
    time.
    
    In regards to the base note, I think that 25 is a bit young to make
    such a decision, but that's because I know people who were absolutely
    certain they did not want children at that age who changed their mind
    as they got older (and that includes my own husband).  But everyone is
    different, and it is your decision to make, so you should do what you
    feel is best.  I think that as long as you go into it knowing that it
    is a permanent thing, and you take the time to look at all the
    information available and make a well-thought-out decision, then you
    should do what you feel is right.
    
    And get rid of that doctor!  

    
    Hi, Kath!
    
    I have to say it again... Get a new doctor!  I have my tubes cauterized
    about 3 years ago (I'm 28 now), and I have never regreted it.  My
    doctor was great - she simply explained the procedure, and then asked
    me if I was sure I wanted it done, as it was irreversable, I said yes,
    and that was that - we scheduled it that very day.
    
    Was great!  Outpatient, I went in about 7:30am, and was home by noon.
    Was back to normal in a few days.  No pain, only a bit of discomfort
    where they were cauterized.  I have John Hancock, and they covered it
    100%.  (I think it was approx. $2000 for everything - doctor, hospital,
    anethesiologist, etc.)
    
    Don't let anyone try to tell you you are too young - physical age is
    not what matters in making this decision, it is your maturity that
    counts.  You may be more mature and capable of making this decision at
    25, than some woman may be at 40.  You know what is right for you.
    
    And, if you do decide you want a child someday - it is not necessary to
    have one from your body.
    
    I have never felt the importance of having a child from my body - I guess 
    in part because of not having strong family ties (really NO family ties) 
    however I would like to  adopt one or two older children in a few years - 
    no one wants older children - in fact comments I get are "oh, you don't 
    want them - they already have personalities", etc.  I don't want to  "mold"
    someone into what I percieve is what a "good, successful child" is, I just 
    want to give someone a  good home, love, a chance to grow in a happy
    home.  There are too many children out there that deserver good homes
    that don't.  (I'm single (-: )
    
    C. (-:
    

    This may be one of the toughest decisions you'll make, because you do
    have to consider it to be permanent.
    
    Personally speaking, I've had my tubes tied and it was a tough decision
    for me.  I'd had three children, was in my late thirties; the Pill was
    an absolute nuisance (bled 20 out of thirty days!) and all the rest.  I
    thought if I had my tubes tied, how would I feel if something happened
    to my children and I wanted to have more.  It all seemed so PERMANENT.
    
    It was getting pregnant with my fourth that made up my mind.  I had it
    done immediately after his birth.  No regrets.
    
    I think, as one other noter mentioned, if the Pill or some other form
    of BC worked for you, would you be considering doing this is very
    appropriate to this conversation.  Because if some form of BC would be
    acceptable if it didn't cause problems, then you are working the wrong
    issue.  Also, forgive me if this offends anyone, I too think 25 is
    awfully young to be making this decision.
    
    By the way, I think people who already have children and then get
    sterilized have a different perspective on this than one who has not
    had any children and wants sterilization.  It's quite a different
    matter because often there is an urge to have a family that hits in
    your thirties.  Certainly not with everyone, but I've seen it often
    enough to believe it happens. 
    
    I have two friends who had their tubes tied in their twenties.  Both
    had had two children; curiously enough both regretted it from time to
    time.  One of them has since divorced, about to remarry, and  is an
    issue.
    
    Best of Luck in this decision!
    

    I'm sure that whatever decision you make, you will regret it from
    time to time.  
    
    I don't think that means you made the wrong decision.  
    
    There are very few choices we make as adults that we can honestly
    say we *never* regretted. 
    
    --bonnie

    It's funny.  A lot of people here are saying 25 is too young to make
    the decision to *not* have children.  But if Kath were 22 or 23 and were
    announcing her pregnancy here, would y'all still feel she was "too young"
    to make such an irreversible decision???
    
    I think there is still a lot of the old, "all women want to be mommies"
    feeling around this topic.  Few women are discouraged from deciding TO
    have kids, which in my opinion is far more permanent and far more life-
    changing than the decision to remain childless.  Think about it. 
    Sterilization offers you the chance for reversal, there's always
    adoption, IVF, etc.  But having a kid is permanent.  End of story.  Yet
    people here are saying 25 is too young to have a tubal because of its
    "permanence".  Emotion seems to be supplanting logic, here.
    
    I knew as soon as I became fertile that motherhood wasn't something I
    wanted.  It took nearly 20 years, (and lots of BC hassles and
    nightmares along the way), to find a doctor who would sell me the medical
    service I was looking for.  Most treated my inquiry as an opportunity for 
    paternalistic condescention.  But then I met a saint and every mother's 
    day I'm tempted to send him a thank you card.  There was nothing so heady 
    as the morning I drove home after "trying out" my new surgery.  I began to 
    understand a little better the casual attitude toward sex of the average 
    male and I liked it.  I was surprised to realize how much the spectre of 
    pregnancy actually ruled a woman's life, (and further, how pregnancy
    can be USED to do so which explains the hoopla over women getting birth
    control and now over women getting abortions).  Wish I could have had it 
    done at 12 and saved myself a lot of money and emotional torture.
    
    As to the actual procedure, cut and cautery, (burning the tubes), isn't
    done much anymore.  Too many slips burned the bowel with nasty results.
    Usually, it's now done via application of Falope rings, (one 'n' in
    Falope as I found out in my medical transcription days), which is
    slipped over the knuckled tube.  Placement of these rings determines
    just how reversible the surgery will be.  The more proximal, (closer to
    the uterus where the tube is wider), the better your chances.  But keep
    in mind that as much of a breeze as sterilization is, rejoining the
    tubes is micro-surgery involving a large smile incision and 6 weeks out
    of work.  It costs around 6 grand and the chances of success are 75 to
    80 percent if the Falope rings were used.  These percentages are
    specific to UMASS Medical Center in Worcester only.  Don't know the
    national stats, but they can't be much lower.
    
    If a waiter or salesperson had called a client's request stupid, s/he'd
    be out on the street.  Doctors have no more right to insult their
    customers than anyone else.  I'd definitely make some noise about this
    person.  And then let them know why they lost the sale.
    
    Sandy Ciccolini

    <But if Kath were 22 or 23 and were announcing her pregnancy here, would
    <y'all still feel she was "too young" to make such an irreversible
    <decision???
    
    
    I would, but I hope that's another discussion.

"Few women are discouraged from deciding TO have kids, which in my opinion
is far more permanent and far more life-changing than the decision to remain
childless".

    Sandy, I can't agree with this.  Life-changing, yes.  Permanent, no:
after its born, you can give the kid up for adoption if you've changed your
(single or collective, whichever applies) mind. (you can also stall on this
one a bit, which is not necessarily a good idea, but that's another story).
18-21 years later, you can kick the kid out of the house and/or have minimal 
or no contact with him/her.  That's reversal, with about the same success
rate as the reversal of sterilizations: sometimes it works, sometimes it
doesn't.

   The whole point is that Kath can elect to remain childless without
getting sterilized, a more non-permanent form of the same decision.  This
is not quite "having your cake and eating it too", because the cake you're
eating won't taste as good (to stretch this analogy to the breaking point),
but it's not quite the now-or-never decision your note makes it sound like,
either.  If it were, how many people here do you think would have said "Oh,
Kath, even though you don't want any kids, you should go ahead and have
at least one, because you might change your mind later..."?

Besides, how many chances have you gotten to discourage a woman from deciding
to have kids?  Usually you don't even hear about it until well into the
pregnancy, at which point it is probably too late for them to consider your
advice.

	Sharon

    
    
    I thank EVERYONE for all everything you've said, I've been wicked busy,
    so, even though I'm not discussing this a lot here, I AM reading and 
    I appreciate the information VERY much (and thanks to those who have
    written to me off-line...please don't take it personally if I don't get
    back to you right away....I REALLY appreciate your information!)
    
    
    There's one thing that I REALLY want to comment on, and that's .49.  I
    came into =wn= today to make this VERY comment because I was
    formulating my stance when I talk to another gyn for a second opinion.
    You can't believe how HAPPY I was to see someone else make the
    observation.
    
    Many people in here have talked about "changing your mind", and "it's
    permanent", etc, etc etc.  .49 put it PERFECTLY for me.
    
    	If I were to announce here that I wanted to get pregnant, there
    	would a LARGE portion of cheers and support.  In fact, I think 
    	it's highly doubtful that a recognizable percentage of people
    	would even discuss the fact that "10 years down the road I might 
    	change my mind."
    
    	Many people make the decision lightly to have children, to some
    	it's a "default" that they will have children.  What happens 
    	10 years down the line when they're TIRED of having children?
    	Isn't having a child a permanent situation?  Can you just "get rid"
    	of your children when you don't want to be a mother anymore?  What
    	are your options?   How is the decison to HAVE a child any
    	different than the decision NOT to have one?
    
    This might sound a little crass, but consider the parallel.  Yes, I 
    MIGHT someday change my mind.  When people have children, the fact that
    they MIGHT change their mind someday is possible.  They live with 
    their choices.  When I think about it, my options are perhaps easier
    than  the options a mother (who doesn't want to be a mother anymore)
    has.
    
    Being childless and sterile, I would have the option of *trying* IVF
    or, better yet, ADOPTING.  My boss just adopted a BEAUTIFUL little
    Korean girl to be a sibling of their older adopted Korean boy.  *IF*
    I ever changed my mind about children, I would LOVE to give a child who
    HAS no future, one that they can be happy in....
    
    You see, the decision to have or not to have a child is the SAME,  it's
    just a different scenario....What if ANY of us "change our minds"
    later?  Who would be in the "better" position?  A woman who has a child
    and later "wants out" or a woman who chose sterilization and later
    "wants in"?  
    
    How is the decision making process any different?  And why?
    
    
    kathy	

    Kathy:
    
    If people took the same care toward conceiving children that you are
    taking thwarting the conception there would be many fewer unwanted
    children in the world.
    You should be applauded for your consideration and thoughtfulness. The
    fact that pregnant women are given overwhelmingly positive reception,
    cant in any way diminish the casualness with which many decide on being
    pregnant. (and anyway, people wouldn't tell the woman she shouldn't be
    pregnant if she already is, any more than we would tell you that you
    should NOT have been sterilized had you just told us you HAD been
    sterilized.

    
    
    
    Another point I have....
    
    
    When I have sex, even WITH BC Pills, condoms, etc...there is ALWAYS a
    tenseness and feeling of "what if I get pregnant?"....  I'm not sure
    many here can fully understand how much the mere thought of the 
    possibility scares me to death.  BC Pills are not for me, they've given
    me nothing but trouble (severe depression, raging infections, etc).
    Spermicides are not for me, IUDs are not for me nor are diaphrams or
    anything else I'm going to stick inside of me.  
    
    That leaves me condoms and the "hoping and praying" that they don't 
    break.  Frankly, I can do without that sort of tension in my life. 
    Yes, I would continue to use them in situations where I wasn't sure as
    to the "status" of the person I was with (D!, you don't have to worry
    about that.....;-) ).
    
    Many times the tension of this doesn't even allow me to enjoy any form
    of sexual intercourse........frankly, I don't want to continue living
    my life like that--in constant (hahahaha...) fear of pregnancy.
    
    
    RE: .51
    
    Sharon....I can't agree with you about having the child and "kicking it
    out" or putting it up for adoption.  That's a VERY stressful thing to
    many people and they live with the emotional scars of something like
    that for YEARS....  Even if you "kick a child out", that child is still
    there, and will always be there in your life to some capacity.
    
    If I regretted my decision, that's all it would be....regret.  I would
    never have to experience the emotional struggle that a mother would
    getting rid of the child...all I would experience would be the lost
    chance at something like that.
    
    I consider the emotional impact to be MUCH less (but perhaps I'm
    wrong).
    
    kath

    Kathy,
      I agree with you - I wish I had had the courage at 25 to make the
    decision you are making now.  I decided at a very early age that I
    did not want children for a number of reasons, not the least of which
    was the "rocky childhood" mentioned earlier.  I continue not to make
    the decision in order to "keep my options open", but I haven't waivered
    from my decision from the time I was about 22, in fact, I am more and
    more convinced as time goes on that having a child is *not* for me.
    At 35, soon I'm sure, my gyn is going to have that "going off the pill"
    chat with me, and I know at that time I will not have much trouble
    making the decision.  I know my husband would not mind having children,
    he is very good with them, but he is aware of how I feel and has chosen
    to stay with me (so far, so good!).  It has been easy for me not to
    make the decision so far, as I have no troubles with the pill, in fact,
    it helps with my headache problem.  If I were having the problems you
    are, I'm sure I'd have done something long ago.
    
    The only thing that has bothered me in all this time was the continuous
    prodding by well meaning friends and relatives around, when I was going
    to get over this and grow up and have children.....Very few people take
    the time to talk with me about my reasons not to.  You may have to get
    used to the more unsensitive folks making random remarks about how you
    could have done such a "final" thing while so young, but if it's right
    for you, that is enough.
    
    And on a final note, I agree with the crowd here - Fire that Gyn!!!!
    Take care.
    
    -HA

I have to disagree with both Sandy and Kath that everyone in here would greet
a 25 year old's announcement that s/he was going to have kids with unreserved
enthusiasm.

Case in point - in the last version (I think) someone started a topic on
whether to have kids or not.  Not everyone said "You ought to have a kid".
In fact, I don't think anyone said it. The advice was much the same as it
was here: go slow and think about it hard, because it is a permanant 
decision.  

And you will notice (please) in my first response in this string, I said
that I would advise against a 25-year-old making *any* life-altering
permanant decision and I *included* having a child in that, explicitly.

(As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago, Kathy made just such a 
statement, that she wanted her tubes tied.  At the time, she didn't ask for
opinions, and I didn't offer any - and I assumed that she had decided
to do what was best for her and that was cool. In fact, I was sort of 
surprised to see this note here where she appears still uncertain, since
I thought it has been a given for at least a couple of years.)
  
If Kathy came in here and announced she had decided to have a child, I would
support her, and when she had the child, I would congratulate her.  If she
had come in here and announced she had decided to have her tubes tied, I would
support and, and when she had the operation, I would congratulate her.

If she came in her and said that she was considering having a child, what
did everyone think, I would say *exactly* what I said in my reply here - that
it was a big decision, that my gut reaction was that she was too young, but
that it was her body and her life and her decision, and as long as she 
considered it carefully it was not my place to make any comments about her
decision.

I *don't* think this is a pro-mommy bias speaking.

D!

    
    
    RE: .56
    
    D!  I didn't say "everyone in here".
    
    >surprised to see this note here where she appears still uncertain
    
    D!.  I've NEVER been uncertain about my decision!  I feel as strongly
    about it now as I did two years ago.  I ran into stumbling blocks then
    and chose not to pursue it because I was in the midst of pursuing a
    move across the country.  This time I plan on acheiving my goal.....
    
    ...this note is not about "asking for help in making a decision", it's
    about exploring what kinds of obstacles I'm going to run into while
    reaching my goal.  When I know how other people feel about it, I can
    better formulate my responses and my "defense" (for lack of a better
    term) in reaching that goal.
    
    I know DAMN WELL what I want....No one's advice here is going to change
    that.....after 50 some-odd replies, no one has said anything to waver
    that decision in the least.
    
    If I gave you the impression that there was any uncertainty on my 
    part, I'm sorry, that was not my intention.
    
    kath
    

Ah. I misunderstood, I thought the base-note implied that you were still 
deciding.

If you've decided then - go for it.

And don't let some well-intentioned but misguided doc stand in your way.  
Tell her what you told us - and if she continues to give you a hard time,
find someone else. There are certainly docs who can handle it!!!

D!

    
    
    RE: .56 (again!) ;-)
    
    >I would say *exactly* what I said in my reply here - that
    >it was a big decision, that my gut reaction was that she was too young,
    >but that it was her body and her life and her decision, and as long as she
    >considered it carefully it was not my place to make any comments about
    >her decision.
    
    I just have another comment to make, D!.  When IS a person "not to
    young" to make life-long decisions?
    
    I think it's really bad to tie it to an age, because so many people 
    mature at such varying rates.  At the age of 25, I feel I'm VERY mature
    in many respects (and that goes along with many people's comments about
    my).....while I know people at the age of 40 who couldn't make the
    mature decisions that I make today.
    
    I think when people reach adulthood....after a settling down period
    (imagine the damping function for you techno-weenies), maturity is no
    longer based on age, but rather experience and the ability for
    self-examination.  
    
    So many people these days never look into themselves and really
    discover who and what they are.....I think I've sufficiently done that
    at this point in my life to feel confident in a decision like this. 
    And, also, to feel confident that I could happen the situation if I had
    any regrets later.
    
    kath

    My 17-year-old daughter is more able to understand the
    consequences of a decision, make a choice, and live with the
    results than are most people twice her age.  
    
    I was 19 when she was born, and I think I was more than old enough
    to decide I didn't want an abortion, thank you, and we'd be better
    off on our own than in a forced marriage. 
    
    I was 25 when I got married, and I don't think choosing a partner
    with whom to spend my life was any less serious than choosing to
    have a child, although it's easier to reverse the legalities.
    
    There are occasions of loneliness and frustration when I regret
    both those choices, but that doesn't mean I wish them undone.  It
    means I wish I could have it both ways.   
    
    --bonnie

    Kath, lest you think I meant what I said fully *seriously* when I talked
about putting a child up for adoption "simply because you changed your mind"
or "kicking a child out" after several years, I wasn't proposing those as 
viable option for the truly unsure, much less recommending it.  I was simply
trying to take the romanticism out of the idea that giving birth to a child
creates "permanent" change in a woman's life.  That is a *cultural* *norm*, not
a biological given; we're not talking pupas-into-butterflies here.

    You seem to know what you want and be ready and willing to deal with any
consequences, so I would encourage you to shop around for a doctor whose
criteria are not age or marital status but a desire not to give birth to
any children in the future.  Keep in mind that many of these same doctors
would be fully supportive of your decision if you were 5 years younger, used
illegal drugs, had 2 children and were on welfare.

Is it any of their business that that's not the case?

    Sharon

    Kathy,
    
    I first started thinking about a "tubal" when I was 28.  Granted I had
    a child but people still thought that I was nuts.  I actually had it
    done when I was 30.  I was about to start law school, my daughter was
    11, I'd been on the pill for 11 years, and I knew that if I had more 
    children I would want to be able to stay home with them for a year or 
    two and that I was no longer willing/psychologically able to do that.  
    I have never regretted having it done.
    
    I do know a number of women who thought that they never wanted to have
    children and changed their minds when they got older.  I know at least
    an equal number who haven't changed their minds.
    
    If you didn't have all the difficulties with birth control I'd say give
    it some time before you do anything - what's the hurry?  But, I can
    understand why you don't want to play birth control roulette.  If you
    really feel comfortable with sterilization being right for you, then do
    it.
    
    Polly
    
    P.S.  I worte this w/o reading any of the other replies so hope it
    isn't too repetitive.
    
    P.P.S.  You doctor needs to take some sensitivity pills!

    I don't have the time at this moment to read all the replies, but
    here is my story.
    
    I've ALWAYS wanted to get married and have 5+ children.  I know,
    in this day and age it's crazy, but I love kids.  Well, as fate
    has it, I'm now 37 and still single.
    
    At age 34 I started to seriously think about my future including
    birth control.  Started to think about options like tubal ligation
    a lot since my doctor, as most do, refuses to continue birth control
    pill prescriptions after age 35.  I decided that since I was 
    "getting up there" in years and still single with no permanent
    prospects in sight that I would opt for a tubal ligation.  Well it
    took me a little over a year to come to that decision.
    
    I talked with my doctor (who is abolutely wonderful) about my
    decision.  We talked for a long time about the surgery, side effects,
    pernancy, etc.  She gave me some booklets to read and rescheduled
    an appointment for a week later.  I was still firm in my 
    decision a week later and was scheduled for surgery.
    
    As much as I regret not having children, I know that I'm not
    up to 2AM feedings nor do I particularly want to have to deal
    with teenage problems when I'm in my fifties.  I'm happy to
    have had surgery.
    
    Mother nature did, however, play a nasty joke on me.  A year 
    after I had a tubal ligation, I discovered that I was going
    through menopause early.  This had nothing to do with the
    tubal ligation other than I didn't have to have it.
    
    I advise getting another OB/GYN.  Mine is a woman and has
    gone through what I have.  She is connected to an HMO,
    but takes non HMO patients.  I'm sure you can find someone
    as capable and caring.
    
    As far as your age goes, I had no problem since I was 35,
    but a friend of mine who had a tubal ligation at 22 was
    told firmly that is she didn't have 2 children, there ws
    no way her doctor would do the surgery.
    
    Doctor's are too afraid of malpractice suits which could
    easily occur if someone wanted a ligation reversed.  The
    first thing my doctor told me was "It's permanent".
    
    Linda
    

    I've personally known of a case where a woman (a relative) decided she
    couldn't be a "mommy" anymore and was ready to put her child up for
    adoption (my niece).  So getting pregnant and giving birth is no more a
    "permanent, life-altering" decision than anything else that comes up in
    the course of being alove.  The child was three and one half years old
    at the time.  Luckily my sister adopted her.
    
    I think it's difficult for anyone to give a fair opinion to the
    basenoter, simply because we do not personally know her.  So we give
    opinions based on our own feelings which is all we can do.  And I
    thought that's what was requested.
    
    I too think that doctors are looking out after their own skin on this
    issue.  Too many malprictice suits, and too many people NOT willing to
    take responsibility for their own actions.
    

    >I think it's difficult for anyone to give a fair opinion to the
    >basenoter, simply because we do not personally know her.
    
    We don't?
    
    Well, I don't Kath in the Biblical sense, but under normal
    circumstances I would certainly say I "know" her...
    
    D!

    I respect and admire folks who realize that children do not fit into
    their future and are willing to do something to see that an unwanted 
    pregnancy does not occur.
    
    I am very tired of the Doctor/God concept.  I expect the medical
    profession to advise me of possible side effects of any treatment
    and/or procedure I might be considering.  But I don't expect the
    profession to treat me as an imbecile and/or refer to my questions
    or requests as stupid.
    
    Kathy, I suspect you may at some point in time wonder what it would 
    be like to have a child...but that will be your hormones talking to
    you.  Be prepared for it and realize that doesn't make your decision
    stupid.  We cannot have and/or do everything our body wants us to...
    we have to override desires and compulsions with reason and it sounds
    like you have made a decision that is right for you.
    

    I endorse people taking responsibility for themselves and their
    behaviors.  If .0 has thought it through, as it would appear she has,
    then I say "goferit!"
    
    mdh

    
    
    Just an update....
    
    It's been a week and 1/2.  The doctor was supposed to call me to set up
    an appt for a second opinion.  No calls, so I called today.  They said
    that one doctor (the 60+ yr old man I went to the first time I went for
    a Pap) refused to do the second opinion.  They placed the chart on the
    desk of another Gyn, and he's on vacation until next week (this guy is
    approximately 45-50 yrs old).
    
    The nurse told me on the phone today (and I quote), "You can bet they
    probably won't do it."  To that I answered, "I'm prepared to fight that
    ruling if it comes down to it.  I've made an informed decision, and I
    haven't made it lightly.  I'll be looking forward to hearing from the
    doctor next week when he gets back from vacation.  Thank you."
    
    
    I think it's about time to log a call to Patient Relations.
    
    
    kath

Kath, I think this b*&^%$^()t entitles you to one free trip to the
Primal Scream topic.

Sara

Kath, are you diealing with an HMO?

Kathy
Sara

    
    
    
    
    
                                 GO KATH!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Kathy, go get 'em. A friend of mine who was living in Pennsylvania at
    the time, had her tubes tied at the age of 25. They didn't question
    her. They gave all the avaiable literature, let her know what her
    options were, in short, gave her all she needed to know in order to
    make an informed decision on her own, about her own life and lifstyle
    and then let her go ahead and have the procedure done, because it was
    HER decision. When is New England ever going to catch up to the rest of
    the country and dumped these stupid, outmoded, I want to say Puritan
    Ideals, but that would be insulting the Puritans. :-) Let's just say
    that the "powers that be", those that think they can make decisions for
    us should all be exiled to Antartica or something. 
    
    I'm sorry, but medical people who try to inflict their own personal
    morality on other's are as despicable to me as politicians who try to
    legislate morality.
    
    Phil

    
    If you are a member of an HMO and get too frustrated fighting them
    on your own, Digital has "appointed" a liason to deal with each of
    the HMOs and John Hancock.  If you want to know who the DEC liason 
    is who arbitrates with/against (?!) your particular health care 
    provider, mail me and I'll give you their name and number.
    
    This is info every PSA/PA can provide for employees.
    
    Sue

    
    	re: .73
    
    	I believe the gyn she talked to WAS female.....
    
    	sigh.....
    
    	JJ
    

    I believe, Kath, that they are worried most about their insurance
    rates.  Offer to sign a release.
    
    mdh

re .70

I believe that Kath said earlier that she is dealing with an HMO, in fact I
think that she mentioned that it was Fallon Clinic.  (A large, old Central
Massachusetts HMO.)

IF what I've written above is correct, then complaining to the HMO and DEC
should produce results as Fallon is one of the two HMOs in Massachusetts through
which the new DEC HealthNet medical plan is offered and there is supposed to
be extensive monitoring to insure that DEC is getting the service that it is
paying for.

Rich

    Actually, Rich, kath didn't name names in this string.  I, on the other
    hand, *did* have my experience with Fallon.  That is where they were so
    accepting of my decision.
    
    E Grace

    
    ...That it (DEC) and the *employees* are paying for!!
    
    You are right about the monitering.  If Personnel and Corporate
    Benefits doesn't know about problems, they can't be corrected/
    dealt with ... so call your PSA and ask who the Fallon liason
    is.
    
    Sue

    I've been trying to get Corporate Benefits to help me with
    John Hancock bills for *4* years now.  Corp. Benefits and
    JH both are happy to assure me that no money is owed to
    health care providers.  Health care providers (and their
    collection agencies and attorneys) seem to think otherwise.
    
    Wishing you better luck,
    		
    	Pennie

    
    
    
    
    
    Kath, why don't they give it to a gyn who *isn't* on vacation? 
    Stalling tactics?
    
    Offering to sign a "waiver" or a "release" does no good.  At least it 
    didn't in my case.  Which leads me to believe that insurance and
    lawsuits are not their primary concern.  The maintenance of long
    treasured beliefs about women as loving mommies seems to be the driving
    force.  Women actively rejecting motherhood tends to shake some people to
    the core.  Particularly old men who are clinging to the image depicted
    in a current laundry detergent commercial with the jingle, "Momma makes 
    yellow dandy like a dandelion.  Oh, you know I love my Momma!"   And it's 
    no accident that it's a little boy falling into her open and loving arms, 
    (and male voices singing the jingle), and not a little girl.
    
    Or how about the blonde holding up the soup bowl and letting her guy, who 
    has his own bowl, eat from hers.  The image of woman as ever-flowing, 
    bountiful, selfless and loving being is a hard one for some people to get 
    over.  And this is the resistance Kath is meeting.  If it weren't, a legal 
    waiver would exist.  After all, if you were sitting in the jury where a
    tearful woman was on the stand pointing to a gyn who had sterilized her
    at her request, would you sympathize with her in a lawsuit against the
    gyn?  So what are these guys really worried about, I ask you?  They fear
    the thought that women might not be natural givers of endless and
    unconditional love - that they might only dole out love the way men do,
    when they want to and only to those who earn it.  Kath, you're fighting
    centuries of myth about women.  But I can give you the name of a great
    doc in Shrewsbury and he may even be affiliated with the plan.  He
    respects his clients and he sells the services he's set himself up to
    sell.  He plays neither god nor daddy to his patients and that makes
    him a rare bird in the world of caregivers to women.
    
    Sandy Ciccolini
                                              

    .68:
>    They said
>    that one doctor (the 60+ yr old man I went to the first time I went for
>    a Pap) refused to do the second opinion.  They placed the chart on the
>    desk of another Gyn, and he's on vacation until next week (this guy is
>    approximately 45-50 yrs old).
    
    I don't understand why `they' did these things without asking you to
    *choose* which doctor you wanted to see for a second opinion.  Nor do I
    understand why a doctor is allowed to refuse to see a patient, or why
    you should have to wait until next week.  Hang in there, Kath!  You're
    paying them to serve you, and they should do so, even though it sounds
    like they believe you're there to be manipulated.

    Alright Kath!
    
    Fight for what you believe in!!!!!!
    

    
    re .68, kath:
    
>    The nurse told me on the phone today (and I quote), "You can bet they
>    probably won't do it."  To that I answered, "I'm prepared to fight that
>    ruling if it comes down to it.  I've made an informed decision, and I
>    haven't made it lightly.  I'll be looking forward to hearing from the
>    doctor next week when he gets back from vacation.  Thank you."
    
    Excuse me, kath.  I'm not sure what you're talking about here.
    
    Are you upset because individual doctors are refusing to perform this
    operation for you?  Excuse me, but that *is* their prerogative.
    Just as many (if not most) doctors refuse to do abortions.  That is
    their choice too.
    

     re -1
    
    It is quite likely that the HMO will state that *all* of their doctors
    refuse to provide this particular procedure to an unmarried, childless
    woman under age 40 (or something similar).  Since it is a legal
    medical procedure, covered under the terms of the HMO insurance
    plan, and available to *other* women (married, with children, or over 
    age 40 in this example) I believe that Kath will have a legitimate
    gripe/case.  
    
    The practical effect of only hiring doctors into a plan who have 
    identical personal moral codes on providing a particular service is 
    to deny accessable treatment to their full patient base.
    Unfortunately, these kinds of issues are seldom mentioned in the
    literature from the marketing group for the HMO.
    
    Alison

    
    
    
    RE: .84
    
    Please read .85.  It explains, quite accurately, what I intended to
    convey.
    
    If a certain doctor doesn't want to perform the operation, I respect
    that.  However, if ALL doctors at my HMO refuse or the HMO refuses on
    behalf of the doctor's without just cause (BTW, I believe the HMO would
    have to prove that I'm mentally incapable of/unstable enough to make 
    such a decision for myself) I intend to pursue the matter thru proper
    channels.
    
    Waiting patiently until later this week to give the doctor time to
    call me....
    
    kath

    Could someone please clarify this:   Is voluntary sterilization
    covered under most medical plans?   Something in me wonders if since
    it is elective and one of goals of an HMO is to control health care
    costs, that is why the basenoter is being denied the operation.  Is
    it a matter of being denied the procedure or being denied *coverage*
    of the procedure.   Just curious as I was thinking tubal ligation
    might fall under the same category as some plastic surgeries, etc.
    
    Carol

    No, it is usually covered.  

    
    
    
    RE: .87
    
    As far as I'm aware, a tubal ligation, while it's considered to be
    elective surgery, it's also preventative care.  
    
    It's standard procedure of HMO's to pay for this procedure for women
    who elect to have it after they have completed "their family" as a way
    of preventing future pregnancies (failure rate is about 1 in 300).  
    
    "Cosmetic surgeries" which are elective (as opposed to facial
    reconstructions) are not paid for by most HMOs.  Such surgery includes
    plastic surgery on various body parts, breast augmentations, sex-change
    operations, etc.
    
    >that is why the basenoter is being denied the operation.
    
    That's definitely not the reasoning here.  Even though I will agree to
    sign a consent form (releasing them of all liability), they are leary
    of lawsuits....and frankly, I get the feeling they just don't believe I
    can possibly be make this decision for myself at this age (although,
    they have made no effort to discuss this with me yet to establish my
    state-of-mind).
    
    kath

I hardly think economics of doing the sterilization is the problem the
HMOis having with this.

Tubal ligation is cheaper than a pregnancy.  Economically speaking, the
should encourage all their women patients to have sterilizations.

D!

	But on the other hand, the cost of a single lawsuit (even
	if successfully defended) might not be.

					Tom_K

>	But on the other hand, the cost of a single lawsuit (even
>	if successfully defended) might not be.

Tom, you missed my point. I was responding to the person who said that
the HMOmight not want to perform the surgery because doing the actual
(elective) surgery would be expensive.

D!

	OK. Don't mind me...

		Tom_K

    As far as the relative cost of sterilization vs. the cost of an
    unwanted pregnancy, _I_ see this clearly.   In fact, it has always
    griped me that health plans (with the exception of Tufts as far as
    I know) do _not_ cover birth control pills which are probably a whole
    lot cheap than labor&delivery, abortions, etc.   So, while you
    and I may see sterilization as cheaper in the long run, it wouldn't
    surprise me if a health plan didn't see things that way!   However,
    I suspect the "morals" side of it or the supposed inability of
    Kath to make this decision for herself and not regret it have more
    to do with this particular case.   I guess I was kinda playing
    the devil's advocate.   
    
    Carol

    fwiw, i had my first iud inserted in 83 when i was 20.  the doctors in
    that clinic would not do it, but one of the nurse practitioners there
    agreed after i signed a lot of forms saying i wouldn't sue anyone if i
    became sterile.  (mit health clinic)
    
    had another one put in last year - more forms this time, but no hassels
    (beyond the $$$)
    
    lt

    Kath -
    
    Any word yet from the HMO?  I'm curious how this is going.
    
    Alison

    
    
    Not word one.  I've got answering machines on BOTH telephone numbers
    that they would call.  They have not reached me and have left NO 
    messages.
    
    It's been two weeks since the doctor was supposed to have "reviewed" my
    chart and gotten in touch with me.  I was told that the chart was 
    "sitting on his desk."
    
    I considered calling this morning, but since it's Friday, I didn't feel
    it was a wise call to make today.  First thing Monday morning, I'll be
    calling them.
    
    If I don't get some resolution, the next call I'll make will be to
    Patient Relations.
    
    kath

    
    
    
    
    I called the HMO again this morning.  The woman I talked with said that
    she would check on the status and get back to me.
    
    At 2:00 this afternoon, I got a phone call from a woman named Trisha,
    who, bless her heart, seems to have come through with me.
    
    The doctor that I was orginally recommended to for a second opinion
    refused to see me because I have no children and am not married.  The
    first Gyn I saw at this HMO (they got his name from my records) refused
    to do it as well.  I respect that if it is their decision.
    
    I talked a little with Trisha and explained that I understood that this
    was their moral decision, but that this is not an HMO-level moral
    choice, and that there should be other doctors within the HMO who WOULD
    consent to doing an operation such as this.  She agreed, and said she
    would hunt around for me.
    
    At 2:30 this afternoon, she came thru for me.  She found a doctor that
    might be willing to do the operation AFTER he talked with me about my
    options in-depth (that sounds fair!).  My appointment for a
    consultation is May 24th.  
    
    We'll see......
    
    kath
    
    

    
    	There may be light at the end of the tunnel after all Kath.
    
    	I hope things go well.
    
    	JJ

    Have yawl read note 763 yet?  And what do yawl t'ink now?  Just curious.
    
    Eugene

    I think if a woman knows she definitely doesn't want (more/any)
    children, and wishes to be sterilized, it is her choice.  She takes the
    risk that she may change her mind.  Hopefully she has thought long and
    hard.  
    
    If a man knows he definitely doesn't want (more/any) children and
    wishes to be sterilized, it is his choice.  He takes the risk that he
    may change his mind.  Hopefully he has thought long and hard.
    
    If a woman believes she probably doesn't want children, and decides not
    to get sterilized (at all/yet), it is her choice.  She takes the risk
    that she may have an unwanted pregnancy.  Hopefully she has thought
    long and hard.
    
    If a man believes he probably doesn't want children, and decides not to
    get sterilized (at all/yet), it is his choice.  He takes the risk that
    he may sire an unwanted child.  Hopefully he has thought long and hard.
    
    For those who have been sterilized and wish children, adoption and
    in-vitro fertilization are options.  For those who have not been
    sterilized and are faced with an unwanted pregnancy, adoption and
    abortion are options (please no political arguments, I neither offer
    these as solutions nor condemn them as abominations).
    
    Why should my opinion change from hearing one person's story?
    
    -Jody 

    Kath -
    
    Sounds like you're making progress.  Hope it continues.
    
    Alison

    re .101,
    
    No, you shan't.  
    
    On the other hand, let's just hope they have indeed thought long and hard.
    But in any case, it isn't really my business anyway.  Just curious. 
    
    Eugene                                                             

    Eugene, your message seems to imply that Kath might not have considered
    that she might change her mind, or that she hadn't heard of people who
    did change their minds.
    
    That would be pretty stupid, don't you think?
    
    Kath is a lot of things, but she isn't stupid.
    
    	-- Charles

    re .104,
    
    Charles, 
    
    This may sound too "logical" (sorry), but I did not imply (or did not intent
    to convey) such an impression.  Just curious.
    
    Not to rathole the topic, but I for one have changed my mind on countless 
    occasions during my 28 years of life and many times during the last
    four or five years and they are not about trivial matters (matters that I
    thought long and hard and believed that I would never have changed my 
    mind on them) either.  And I can assure you that I don't think I am stupid
    just because I changed my mind on something that I believed I would never
    changed my mind.
    
    Eugene

    As an aside...  I usually don't give advice on this sort of thing
    because as a man, I don't even have a reference point; but I think it
    will be wise for Kathy to talk to someone like the woman who wrote
    763.0 (if she has not talked to anyone of similar experiences before).
    
    Eugene

    
    
    Eugene....
    
    Yes, I did read 763.0, and yes, it did stop me to think a little.  A
    person can never know if, down the road, they might change their mind. 
    None of us can know that for certain...
    
    ....however, on reflection in regards to 763, I'm sufficiently happy
    with the options that I would have if I ever did change my mind at that
    point (however highly unlikely that is).  
    
    I understand your concern (and actually welcome your voicing of that
    concern)...  I think that in making a decision this important in my
    life, I NEED to have those kinds of challenges and sanity checks.
    
    Thanks.
    
    kath

    
    
    Just an update:
    
    I had my appt today at lunch with the other doctor (the one they hunted
    down thru the ranks of doctors at the HMO).
    
    I was initially talked to by yet another doctor, cross-examined,
    checked over, etc...then the doctor came into the room who was going to
    be doing the surgery...He asked me almost the same set of questions
    while the other doctor looked on.  He presented all my options (which I
    rejected).
    
    And he agreed to do the operation....They were BOTH very congenial and
    very kind to me......
    
    The operation is scheduled for July 19th, right now...Two days after my
    birthday.  (I might have to change that date, but at least, for now,
    it is going to happen).
    
    Feeling strangely calm, and at peace...
    
    kath

    Kath -
    
    Thanks for the update, and congratulations on getting through the red
    tape to reach this point.  Best of luck with the actual surgery.
    
    Alison

    
    
    
    I just had my pre-op anesthesia (have you ever tried to spell that word
    without a dictionary?) appointment.  
    
    I hate hospitals.
    
    I'm nervous.
    
    I hate surgery.
    
    It's Wednesday.
    
    
    
    kath

Best of luck to you, Kathy ...

Love,

Carla

    hang in there, Kath.  I don't much like med procedures either.
    

    I've been there.  I remember telling the anesthetist and my friend
    coming to pick me up after the surgery, and my Dad, what I wanted done
    if there was a massive screw-up and I didn't "wake up".
    
    The reality of the operation and my recovery were much, much better
    than my imaginings had been.  
    
    Best of luck to you.
    
    Alison

Supportive hugs, Kath.  Surgery isn't high on the list of my favorite
things, not anywhere near "raindrops and roses and whiskers on kittens",
and preop stuff isn't much better.  It's all so scary.  We're with you.

-d

    
    
    	Hugs Kath.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    
    Well, surgery is over, it was done on 31 July 1991.  As the doctor was
    about to put me under he once again asked me if this was something I
    wanted to do.
    
    When I woke up a couple hours later, I felt like I'd been run over by a
    Mack Truck.  I took the next two days off from work, and they were very
    much appreciated.  The gas pains were AWFUL for about two days:  under
    my ribcage, in my shoulders, and in my pelvis.  The two entry points
    (one in my bellybutton and one on my pubic hair line) were tender for
    about a week.
    
    I went for my post-op exam on Wednesday, and was a little apprehensive
    about it.  It seems that my HMO feels that it doesn't need to schedule
    post-op exams with the same doctor who did the operation -- instead
    they scheduled me with a doctor who had, previously, adamantly refused
    to perform the operation for me.  
    
    When he entered the room he asked my age, asked how much I had to
    bribe/twist the other doctor's arm in order to get him to perform the
    operation.  I came back with "I didn't have to, he recognizes my right
    to know what's best for myself and my body."   I mentioned to him that
    I hadn't had my period the week after the operation like I should
    have, and he said "Well, you must have messed up and you're pregnant. I
    guess we'll be seeing you for your first Pre Natal visit soon."  He was
    very smug, I felt like slapping him.
    
    Either way, I got my period last night, and it's a MAJOR horrendous 
    one....I've never been in pain so much in my life before (cramps, 
    bloating, etc).  I attribute it to stress and the delayed arrival time
    (almost 2 weeks late).  
    
    It's over, my HMO will be getting a letter detailing my dissatifaction
    with certain doctor's treatment of me, as well as some of their other
    practices.
    
    kath

    Good luck!!
    
    I really sympathise about a bad period.
    
    Alice T.
    
    PS what does HMO mean?

    
    
    >   PS what does HMO mean?
    
    Health Maintenance Organization.
    
    It's an organization of doctors, hospitals, health centers, etc where
    a person gets all their health care needs taken care of (Not).....like 
    health insurance, but all thru one organization.
    
    
    kat
    

    Kath, that doc was so far out of line that I would consider sending a
    copy of your objections to his  behavior to the state liscencing board.
    
    He *is* entitled to his opinions, but IMO he is NOT NOT NOT entitled to
    browbeat, or harrass, or sit in judgement on you, with those opinions.
    
    Plus I agree that the HMO is out of line, sending you to a different
    doc for the post-op.  One of the reasons we pick a doctor is for
    CONTINUITY, cause the doc who knows your condition is the one most
    likely to notice all the things that need to be noticed!  I wonder if
    the jerk-follow-up-doc didn't fail to mention some of the post-op
    effects, or fail to offer you pain-killers, for ex, to punish you for
    making a choice against his beliefs!
    
    sheesh.  anyway, hugs, congrats, and good for you, sticking to your
    guns!
    
    Sara
    

kath,

Send a copy of the letter to your lawyer in addition to the state medical 
board.

    Kath -
    
    In addition, in your letter, I would mention your post-operative pain. 
    It sounds to me like your surgeon did not do an adequate job of
    bleeding off the gas they put in your abdominal cavity during the
    operation.  I had this surgery myself in the last 18 months.  I am
    normally *very* susceptable to drugs, anesthetics, and the like.  I
    warned my physician ahead of time, and had none of the post-operative
    problems you mention.  It did take me a little longer to regain
    consciousness than they wanted, and they had to keep me several hours
    longer than had originally been planned.
    
    Follow-ups should have been done by the physician who did the
    operation, in my opinion.  To get the jerk again was grossly poor
    management on their part.  I am getting the impression that my HMO
    (I suspect we have the same one) doesn't particularly like dealing with
    knowledgeable GYN patients.  Getting information and humane treatment
    from them is like pulling teeth.  Fortunately the other specialities
    that I have seen don't have this problem.
    
    Hope that they tell you they've actually done something about the jerk,
    and that you feel completely better soon.
    
    Alison
    
    PS  Have you considered sending a copy of your letter to whoever it is
    at Digital that is the HMO co-ordinater?

    Help!  I've decided I want a tubal ligation.  My doctor told me I
    would have to go to a class (understandable) and then wait 3 months
    before I can have one.  Is this the norm?
    
    
                                       L.J.

    Well, I don't know if it is the norm, L.J., but it was not my
    experience.
    
    E Grace

    I've know since my son was born 7 years ago and several (read 4)
    doctors told me in no uncertain terms they wouldn't give me one.
    
    I'm now in a great relationship with a man who has 3 children.  We
    don't ever want kids or the risk of it.  I find it ironic that I must
    wait another 3 months at least after having to wait 7 years.
    
    
    
                                      L.J.

    L.J.--
    
    This wasn't a requirement when I had it done (some 18 years ago).  One
    of my doctor's would not do this type of surgery on anyone due to his
    religious beliefs, but his partner was willing after making sure that I
    understood it was not something that I could change my mind about after
    the fact.
    
    Give Planned Parenthood a call and see what their procedure is.  Maybe
    the health plan you are in requires it, but it doesn't sound typical to
    me.
    
    -jer-

    L.J.--
    
   That sounds bogus to me.  Typical though.  Most likely they are
   trying to talk or wear you out of the idea.  As if they have a 
   claim on you body.
   	
   	Allison

egad!  I thought they would have gotten over this garbage by now....when I
got myself, a single, 26 year-old, sterilized many years ago (I'm now 44)
in Mass., I expected flak.  I got flak, but I STOOD MY GROUND and told the
first doctor that started giving me the paternalistic speech about "what
happens when you change your mind?" that I was an adult, knew what I wanted,
and that DID NOT include either children or the side-effects from staying on
the pill for 20+ years.  I also told him I was d&#ned well NOT going to 
"keep my knees primly together" just to please him and his puritanical ideas
about what was proper.  I approached another doctor who refused because I
was "too young" to know my own mind.  Just about the time I was going to
get a lawyer down his throat, the first doctor called me back and apologized
profusely for his stupidity and said he would be happy to perform the tubal.
I suspect his wife fed him an earful when he mentioned his conversation with
me to her.  I cannot imagine otherwise why he would reverse himself so fully.
I got my surgery and I have not regretted it one minute.  In fact, I have
often thanked my intelligence and planning.

What to do:

First, find yourself a woman gynocologist.  Second, sit down and decide if
you really DO want a tubal.  Third, be calm, firm, and prepared for flak
when you request the surgery.  Be prepared to explain how the surgical bills
will be paid (insurance or your ticket).  Learn about the surgery, the
percentage of chance of reversing it from your library.  Be informed.  And,
finally, if you are in the USA, volunteer to SIGN a release that protects
the doctor in the case that you ever DO change your mind and cannot get
the surgery reversed.  This is probably the crux of why they are rufusing to
perform this surgery now...fear of lawsuit from demented fools who look to
blame anyone but themselves for their own decisions.  A release that you
will not sue in case the operation IS A SUCCESS and cannot be reversed in
the future may help calm their fears.  It is worth a try, anyway.

Good luck to you in your quest - it is a perfect form of birth control without
any side effects...you can't say that about anything else, can you?

    After reading through (most) of this string I can only say I'm sorry
    for you people across the puddle.
    It looks like the "Old World" and more specifically Holland is a few
    steps ahead with respect to the right to decide what's good for
    yourself and your body.
    When we decided not to have kids my wife and I had a 5 minute chat with
    our GP and ofcourse he wanted to know if we were sure.
    Another short chat with the urologist (sp?) again together with my wife
    and 2 weeks later I spent approx. 20 minutes on this cold hard table
    while the urologist did his job, all the time explaining what he was
    doing.
    The procedure for women... apart from the operation techniques... the
    same.
    
    Charles Mallo

    LJ,
    
    At the risk of stirring up all kinds of noise in here, why doesn't your
    partner get a vasectomy?  Since he has three kids, the Dr's shouldn't
    have the misgivings they have for you.  Also the surgery is easier and
    cheaper for men.  
    
    Meg

    Meg,
    
    Obviously I can't speak for LJ's partner, but many men I know are
    terrified of the idea of a vasectomy.  They have this idea that it will
    destroy their manhood.  As if the ability to get a woman pregnant had
    anything to do with being a man -- or, to put it another way, a mensch.
    
    And besides, there is also the concept of control.  Men who can control
    their female partners' bodies...
    
    -d

    He has offered to do just that...I have asked him to think about it
    some more.  I know some men have very real psychological problems
    when they have this operation and I don't want him to have to go
    through this.
    
    And it doesn't change the fact that *I* want to be sure of my own body.
    I've asked him to wait until I can get one before he decides what he
    wants to do.
    
    Incidiently my phone was busy for 20 minutes on Friday while waiting
    for anyone to pick up the phone so I could make an appt for the class
    I'm supposed to take.
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

My So has a vasectomy and I think it's great. It makes sex a lot easier to deal
with not having to worry about pregnancy. I'd considered getting myself done
but it's cheaper and easier for the guy. And I can *guarantee* it doesn't make
a man less of a man. ;*} of course, if we break up I've got a problem again but
I'll save worrying about that for later.

I'm sad I never had kids of my own but he's got three I can play with and I'm 
too old to want to ruin my body and take a life and death risk just to have a
baby. And I don't care what anyone says, birth control is always some kind of
hassle (and safe sex is even worse, though I won't admit that to any teenager
that asks). liesl

>if you only have one partner it's easier if the guy does it

 Seems to me it's always easier when the other party does it. :-)

    Another 25 minutes on the hold line and I finally got a live human
    (or reasonable imitation of one) who made my appt. for me.  The
    first date they had for their class was August 28th...they only have
    two a month.  I will then wait for 2+ months before getting an appt.
    with a doctor for the sole purpose of asking questions, like "are you
    sure this is what you want"  etc.  He will then schedule my appt.  It
    will be at least 1+ month after that before I get to have my operation.
    
    I have Kaiser...this means I can't take it anywhere else but to Kaiser.
    And I can't afford to have it done myself.  I am not a happy camper!
    
    
    
    
                                    L.J.

    I didn't realise it was so hard.  15 years ago, when my only son was 2
    I decided on sterilisation - my doctor was okay, but said one hospital
    wouldn't even entertain it at my age and with only one child and
    another hospital in the area probably woud.  I went for an appointment
    and it was all very cut and dried - I wanted it, okay, you can have it.
    
    I waited a few months for a bed (National Health over here!) and went
    in, BUT my husband has to sign to say I could have it done!  My
    decision, my body, but he has to sign.  I was checking in and he then
    decides he's not too sure he doesn't want more kids - I nearly killed
    him as he was horrible to the one we had (hence the sterilisation).  I
    was fine after the op.   Got divorced a year later - but luckily never
    regretted the decision.
    
    Women should have the freedom to make their own decisions about their
    bodies - if we make the wrong decision, then we have to learn to live
    with it. IMHO

    
>    Women should have the freedom to make their own decisions about their
>    bodies - if we make the wrong decision, then we have to learn to live
>    with it. IMHO


	Here here, I'm still fighting this battle, it's even more difficult
	in the UK if you've never had kids!

	Strangely enough, now I'm married, they're actully starting to listen,
	single with no kids is definately a no-no!!!!!!!!!

	Heather - still taking bets on having the menopause before they agree
		  to steralisation, I've been plugging away at this for 21
		  years................I can be stubborn!

.135:
>    I waited a few months for a bed (National Health over here!) and went
>    in, BUT my husband has to sign to say I could have it done!  My
>    decision, my body, but he has to sign.

Well, there's two ways to interpret this regulation:

	(1) They want to make sure the lil' dearie has dadd... er, 
	hubby's PERMISSION to go through with sterilization


	(2) They want to make sure that the other half of the
	child-making partnership is AWARE of what's going on.
	(how would ANY of you, regardless of gender, feel if you 
	wanted a kid so bad you could taste it, but your partner
	went out and got snipped on the sly?)

(1) is reprehensible, but (2) I can actually understand.

Now the real question is:  did the National Health require that the WIFE
sign anything if a man wanted a vasectomy?

--jim

Just thought of another sterilization anecdote:

A friend of mine wanted to get snipped after her second kid.  The doctor
went through the usual off-putting responses: ("Wait a year first".  "Lose
20 pounds first").

After about 18 months of this she decided she'd had enough and DEMANDED
an appointment for the procedure.  At the preliminary check-up, though,
it turned out..... that she was pregnant 8-(

She DEFINITELY did not want this one!

She finally got herself snipped as soon as possible after delivering it.

What a way to go, though!

--jim

    And, a potential lawsuit because she was denied it! (-;
    
    Let the Doc support the baby.....
    
    HRH

    re: .137
    
    The point is NOT whether there should be x amount of communication
    between partners, but that PEOPLE MAKE THESE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR
    OWN BODIES.  Yes, I'm shouting.  No, it's not personal.  You want
    surgery, you get it, regardless of your marital status, age, etc. 
    
    Sorry, but the argument that there could be a disagreement between
    partners doesn't hold water.  One partner, male or female, wants a
    baby and the other doesn't.  There's more at work here than baby
    manufacturing.  If the disagreement is that great, the
    relationship needs some examination, not anyone's decision to have
    their tubes tied.  Problem is, that a woman can get pregnant in the
    time it takes to settle the disagreement.  Whoops!  Too late now!  Then
    some militant anti-choicer will make a motion to require a partner's
    consent for an abortion. 
    
    Oh gosh, there I go, ranting again.
    
    It's not up to me/us/society/government to pry into anybody's
    relationship when the decision is about one's own body.
    
    Nancy
    reactionary_at_large ;-)
    

    
    
    LJ....
    
    Consider this...you're getting the appts and they are willing to talk
    to you about it.
    
    Remember that this is elective surgery.  Elective surgery is not high
    on the list of priorities....
    
    1.  I can understand them wanting to talk to you about it.  I rather
    	expected that part.....I believe a consultation SHOULD be a part of a
    	tubal operation--it's important to know the ramifications.
    
    2.  Doctors have to leave a certain amount of free space in their 
    	surgery schedule for life-threatening and required surgery.  You
    	SHOULD probably expect a 1-3 month delay between when you ask for
    	it and when you actually get it.  I would assume that you would get
    	that delay for just about ANY elective surgery you chose.
    
    I think it's important to distinguish here between prejudice against
    women wanting this operation and inefficient operation of a health
    provider.  I certainly hope that you don't get a combination of the
    both like I did.
    
    LJ, have they given you any negative, disparaging remarks?  And they
    ARE willing to do it, right?  
    
    kath
    

    They suggested I go on the pill instead.
    
    I'm not allergic to it.  But I don't like the idea of forgetting one
    day and waiting for a month to have sex.  And I'm not to pleased with
    some of the side effects I've heard about it.
    
    
    
                                   L.J.

>    They suggested I go on the pill instead.
>    
>    I'm not allergic to it.  But I don't like the idea of forgetting one
>    day and waiting for a month to have sex.  And I'm not to pleased with
>    some of the side effects I've heard about it.

    While I think their advice missed the mark (the pill and sterilization
    are *not* interchangeable!), your facts are a little off according to
    the information Planned Parenthood distributes.  I'd recommend getting
    a copy of the PP brochure, if only to arm yourself with yet more
    reasons why this isn't an acceptable alternative for you.

    Also, you may have Kaiser now, but you don't necessarily have to have
    Kaiser next year.  If I were in your shoes, I would look at the
    ramifications of changing health plans -- and meanwhile schedule a
    consultation with a non-Kaiser doctor, at my own expense, then
    schedule a surgery appointment with them for early January.  If
    Kaiser is still giving you the runaround after you've been through
    the class and the consultation, it'll be about the end of the year
    -- and you can switch health plans.  (Otherwise, you can just cancel 
    your January appointment.)

    Good luck.

	Sharon

    
    
    LJ, I'm sure they're going to suggest all possible alternatives to
    sterilization.....
    
    
    ....simply tell them that you're not comfortable with that and that
    it's not an option for you.
    
    
    They ARE going to push on you to make sure that you understand the
    ramifications of your choice (frankly I appreciated that pushing).
    But, stand up to them.............
    
    
    kath

    I'm amazed that you are having such trouble getting the operation.  In
    January/February of 1990, I was on the operating table within a month
    (might have been three weeks) of my initial appointment with the
    doctor.  The fact that I was not using an HMO, was 38, and had a (then)
    16 year old may have had something to do with the lack of push back
    that I got from the medical community.
    
    Alison

    My HMO sent me to a clinic in Brookline for my sterilization.  At first
    I was upset that they did not refer me to a local ob-gyn for day
    surgery at my local hospital, but the clinic turned out to be
    wonderful.  The wait was about 4 weeks; I had to go in for a screening
    (physical check, the "are you sure" questions, and a complete
    explanation of the procedure -  i.e. here's what the doctor will be
    doing and this is what you'll be feeling.)  A week later, in for the
    operation (in at 8:00, out at 11:00).  No problems with the HMO or the
    clinic at all.