Conference turris::womannotes-v3

  Put in plain, non-sarcastic, non-cynical terms, is anybody else
  beginning to believe that the discussion becomes worthless when
  the prime directive becomes the maintenance of "safe space",
  whatever that means?

                                   Atlant

    re .1 Nah. As a drunk Frenchman once said, "You can't make an 
    omelette without breaking a few oafs."

    Re: .0
    
    Would "Take it to SOAPBOX" be considered impolite?
    
    Now, if you *really* want recipes, I have one for cheesecake that
    always elicits "This is the best cheesecake I've ever had"-type
    comments.  ;-)
    
    Respectfully,
    
    Richard

Richard:

> Would "Take it to SOAPBOX" be considered impolite?

  No, it wouldn't be impolite but it would go a long way towards
  proving my point, my point being that we can't discuss anything
  very meaningful without running the risk of offending at least a
  few folks with deeply held convictions one way or another.  This
  idea that "This should be 'safe' space" stands in direct opposition
  to the idea that "productive debate leading to personal growth
  should be conducted here".

  Recently, a number of notes on useful, provocative topics have been
  started and have either been directly squelched, almost totally ig-
  nored, or "joked and quipped" into oblivion.


                                   Atlant

    
    re .4:  I hear you, Atlant.  To me, Womannotes has steadily
    become, over about the last 6 months or so, pretty bland.
    It's kind of like a steady diet of mashed potatoes without any
    salt or gravy!  And if I hear anyone tell me to go to Soapbox
    or some other file, I'm running straight to the Hot Buttons
    topic, but no, I'm *not* going to another file.  So there!
    

    Unfortunately, you can't even post a recipe in here without giving 
    offense. (For instance, my recipe for venison chili... >;-) )
    
    While _WN_ is a model for non-confrontational noting, most
    of us are, to some extent, confrontational beings. When someone
    says something that I _know_ is patently false, or irrational,
    or insulting, my instinct is to say, "Whoa!" (or "Bullsh*t!)
    
    As a result, I find myself tending towards a sort of split
    personality, with most of my 'confrontational instinct' 
    reserved for, and expressed in, other conferences.

    RE: .5 & .6
    
                    I have to agree.  For a group of people who go
    completely livid at the term "make nice", it seems that this is
    exactly what they want.  Interesting.....
    
    Dave

    I see the blandness as a defensive response to threats and bludgeoning.
    So what do you do when no reasonable approach works?  How does one answer
    an unrelenting intent of destruction?

    RE: .8
    
    >                                                   How does one answer
    > an unrelenting intent of destruction?
    
        
             IMHO.....you don't.  Fire quickly dies with no fuel.
    
    Dave

    Dana,
    
    I learned how to get around some of the stuff when it comes to game
    recipies:  "Use your choice of very lean meat".  Since most of my
    favorite specialties also involve game and/or meat (i'll stake my green
    chili against yours), I can share the basic recipe, but not the flavor
    with anyone who has problems with the ingredients that I use.
     
    Likewise, my language is offensive to some, so they don't get the full
    flavor of who I am by what I say, since I sanitize that as well.  Being
    female I guess I have it easier than many men, as I have had to censor 
    myself and attitudes from the rest of the world for a lifetime, and
    many men are just finding this to be necessary now.  I truly wish that
    valuing diffences really meant VALUING DIFFERENCE, and celebrating the
    fact that we can all be different and yet still friends instead of
    contantly screaming that one persons difference offends another "and
    please don't show me you difference it is offensive to my eyes or
    ears." 
    
    Oh well, I guess vanilla is better than nothing, but if somebody has an
    almond chocalate chip, would they give me a holler.
    
    Gritchy mood today.
    
    Meg

I can't help wondering if there is a way to heatedly and meaningfully
discuss issues without getting into fights and personal stuff.

    John,
    
    any suggestions would be welcomed ...
    
    Bonnie

    Er, uh, not meaning to divert this recipe swapping, but, Richard, could
    you enter your cheescake recipe or send me a copy?
    
    Thanks;)
    Barb

    And Meg's being unfair to stake her chile against Dana's because I
    remember he drooled the *last* time she described (in =wn=) an ideal 
    menu or some such, filled with southwestern style goodies.  He already
    covets your chile, Meg! ;-)
    
    DougO

RE:  Bonnie

Good question Bonnie but I know it is possible.  I think the mods are
doing what they can but its seems like it's up to everyone.

Sorry I can't be more specific...

    
    I can attest that Richard's cheesecake recipe is to die for.
    I'm thinking of having it bronzed and framed.
    
    Carla
    

    the cake, or the recipe, carla?

    
    Richard.
    
    =8-)
    

    Maybe what we need to do is to value differences.  When a response
    unintentionally hits a hot button, try to take a longer look at the
    situation.  The guidlines in 1.* for this conference should be enough,
    if everyone will follow them.  
    
    Intentional Baiting, trashing etc.  probably needs to be ignored, no
    matter how often the person(s) badger, bait and attempt to stir the
    proverbial stable muck.  I'm as guilty as other people in responding
    first and thinking about it later ;-), but I'm trying, honest. (very
    trying)  This leaves the modrators free to moderate, rather than having
    to play diplomat or mom on a constant basis.  
    
    If something truly boils one's blood, maybe that person needs to ask
    her or him self what it is that bothers them about the reply and
    whether the persons involved really intended to hurt.  Sometimes it's
    easier to drop a fight than to continue with it if you aren't getting
    anywhere.  Cooking, for instance is a highly cultural and
    subjective  trait, and many of us can't abide by what other people will
    put in their diet.  If I put in a recipe for Fajitas, chili, oven fried
    rabbit I don't see the problem, as long as I don't go into how to go
    about the initial prep work for the animal(s), now meat, is involved. 
    The old first-grab-a-hen how to for chicken and dumplings is probably
    no more graphic than some other topics hear, but I recognize that there
    are people who don't want to deal with meat or where the meat
    originally comes from and how to process it to meal ready.
    
    I din't get to see Dana's recipie, but if the only offensive item was
    the fact that there was venison in it, I don't get the point of the
    problem.  Oh well, at least he eats what he brings home ;-)
    
    Meg

    re: 4, Atlant
    
    If I took your basenote wrongly, I apologize.  To me, it
    implied a resistance to sensitivity to others. I know it
    can be difficult (in Notes and elsewhere) to imagine all the possibilities 
    of how what we say can offend others.  Rather than calling it
    political (or religious or moral or whatever) correctness, I
    think of it as language sensitivity, and I try to be open-minded
    when someone points out that something I've said is insensitive
    (or outright offensive).  Someone once said that Notes is not
    the best medium for education, but I think in many cases it
    does a fine job.
    
    I've learned through this medium that everyone has a right to
    an opinion, and a right to express it.  I don't have to agree
    with all opinions, or expect everyone to agree with mine.
    What's important is not always what we say, but how we say it.
    
    re: .18, Carla,
    
    *Blush* and thanks.  ;-)
    
    Richard

    Meg, 
    
    I agree that sometimes it is *easier* to drop a fight, but that doesn't
    mean that is always the right thing for me to do.  I do try to give
    people the benefit of the doubt, but if I am offended, it is up to me
    to say so.  It would have been easier for abolitionists to drop the
    fight, too.  Change only comes about when a need is seen.
    
    E Grace

    
    I just wish that it were easier for all of us to listen to the feedback
    we get and give feedback in terms of ourselves.  For example, if I say
    that something someone says makes me angry or hurts my feelings, I
    don't think I should be accused of censorship or of trying to silence
    non "PC" views. If I wanted to silence someone, I wouldn't respond at
    all.  When asked, men here usually say that they come to Womannotes to
    learn about women, so I take that at face value and assume that they
    want to learn about my experience as a woman, even if part of that
    includes anger and pain.  
    
    Justine

    Thank you, Justine.
    
    E Grace

    
    Hooray for "fights"!!! Hooray for "disagreements"!!!  Hooray for people
    who have a different opinion than I DO!!!
    
    When someone disagrees and/or says offensive things, why not 
    
    1. Ask "what can I learn from this statement/opinion?
    
    2. What _specifically_ do I find offensive?  (this has been for me, A
    tremendous learning tool in this note - many of the notes have
    really given me reason to think. And when I can't pinpoint the exact
    reason I'm upset, I know I'm really learning about myself.  The reason
    I can't pinpoint the issue is usually because it's too close to my 
    fundamental values) 
    
    3.write an answer and wait until tomorrow to send it.  See #1 and #2
    above.
    
    4. Above all, avoid calling "Mummy!"  (Or Corporate personnel, or
    whatever your personal security blanket is)
    
    
    Disagreement provides an opportunity to learn.
    =jamd
    
    
    
    PS - I have a Chocolate mousse recipe from the Silver Palate that is
    SOOOO good, words fail me.   

    I, too, agree with .24, but prob reveal myself as crass in saying I've
    more interest in the chocolate mousse recipe from the silver palate...
    
    Sounds wonderful!  Please post or send to XCUSME::QUAYLE or 
    Ann Quayle @MKO
    
    Thanks,
    aq