Conference turris::womannotes-v3

My response is:

whatever float yer boat, go for it.

If it creates friction between your wife and you, that is a different matter.
But if she is happy as long as you don't do it in front of her, and you are
happy doing it alone, then it sounds like everything is dandy.

When I was straight, I wondered what it would be like to date a crossdresser.
If I were to find out that someone I was dating liked/wanted/needed to 
crossdress, and was amenable to making that a part of *our* life, I think
that would be really cool - I think it is something I could get into.
If he wanted to keep it seperate, well, that would be okay too.  But I
definitely wouldn't be happy if he kept it a deliberate secret from me.

D!

I like to wear clothes that are traditionally feminine, but I'm not a
crossdresser. With me it's androgyny and challenging traditional gender roles.
I'm not sure I have a lot to offer about crossdressing, I find it fun, but I
don't think we share the same motivations. I do it to mess with peoples' minds.
I also happen to think I look good in some women's fashions, but I never feel
a need to wear women's lingerie. Well, except for the black silk underwear,
black fishnet stockings, and garter belt I sometimes wear - but that's
different! No - really. It is. I tend to dress for the visual effect and the
effect on others rather than any personal need.

However, I second D!s comment about the relationship with your wife. I think
that if you are going to continue this - and it sounds like you will - that you
either need to work something out with your wife (like that she will explicitly
turn a blind eye, and you will keep it out of her sight) or you're heading for
trouble. Eventually it will become impossible to ignore and things will blow up.

Good luck! I don't know where you are, so I can't point you at any TV support
groups in your area - I only know of some out here in the Bay Area. If you can
find one in your area I seriously suggest you visit them. You are NOT alone.

	-- Charles

    Dear Annon,

    The isolation is scary.  There are support groups and they can help
    with the isolation.  Most major cities have an active crossdressing
    population so it is very likely you can find support. 

<    Although I don't feel the need to see a counselor, it would be good to
<    hear how others feel. Not being homosexual, I have no desire to 
<    interact, as least directly, with other males. Their viewpoints, 
<    experiences and feelings would be greatly appreciated though. What 
<    insight and experiences do women have on this topic?
 
    Intrinsically crossdressing is not a problem.  If society didn't attach
    gender to clothes the very word crossdressing wouldn't exist.  So what's
    so bad about it, fear.  It's the hiding, lies, shame, and guilt that
    are unhealthy.  It's those things that can be very destructive.  I do
    reccomend a counselor not for the crossdressing, that's only clothes.
    There are issues that likely need to de resolved.  In a marriage the
    hiding and whatever can be destructive.  Comming to terms with it is
    healthy.  The crossdressing is part of who you are.  Your choices are
    how to deal with yourself.  It's a part of expressing your personality.
    The range of possibilities include a damaging obsession to healthy
    recreation.  In either case it is likely you will have to deal with
    people close to you about this.  Go for health.
    
    Peace,
    Allison

    Is there a female equivalent to crossdressing? Allison makes some
    very good points about the term "crossdressing", as a matter of fact,
    I couldn't agree more, nor could I have expressed it as well as she
    did.
    
    It's really a shame that society has put a gender on clothing. I'm a
    het woman, but I think that if I had been born a het male, I'd be a 
    crossdresser. Theres just something about getting "dolled up" w/ the
    hair, the clothes, the shoes, the make-up, etc, that makes me (& most
    women, I'd think(?)) feel GREAT, special, confident!! I couldn't
    imagine never being able to pamper myself this way. This is a strange
    realization, I guess I never gave it much thought that way.
    
    I recently watched a TV talk show where there were two married couples,
    the men were both crossdressers. The wives were in two different boats.
    The first one, very secure, very trusting, was completely OK w/ it &
    knew he was a cross dresser before they married. They share clothes,
    but his shoes are too big for her. The other wife was really a mess, 
    really considering divorce, doubting her husbands sexuality, completely
    misunderstanding why he'd want to look like a woman & not want to be w/
    a man!! His response, "I want to look like a woman because I think
    women are beautiful! I love them!"
    
    I really don't see why this is so difficult for people to understand,
    but then again, I'm a fairly liberal person. I tried to have a
    discussion w/ my boyfriend about this, & we got into an argument
    because he found my opinion SO offensive! Well.....I guess there's 
    no bringing him around to my way of thinking, & that's why this remains
    a controversial issue. I can just forget about it, & say, "Oh well,
    such as life!" because it doesn't directly pertain to my life. I just
    hope you (base noter) can work things out w/ your marriage. This may be
    where you BOTH need councelling.
    
    hugs,
    Bonnie

    I meant, "Such IS life".....oops!
    
    Bon

    re .5 Unlikely, since women's fashion includes just about *everything*

    see also:
    
    MENNOTES
    272 - crossdressing - "sick" or normal?
    
    
    -Jody
    

On the subject of cross dressing becoming more acceptable: no, I don't
think so. Exactly *what* clothes/accessories are considered exclusively
feminine have changed, eg: earrings are now acceptable accesories for men,
but there is still just as much resistance against men dressed in whatever
is deemed "women's clothing".

I think part of the reason there are more male cross-dressers than female
is that it is more taboo for a man to dress as a woman than for a woman 
to dress as a man. I think the reason for *that* is misogyny.

Remembering back to my human sexuality class...there are transvestites
and "drag queens" - the former are men who dress as women out of sexual
need/desire.  The latter aren't doing for sexual thrill but for...well,
I've never really been sure *why* "drag queens" dress up.  I'll have to ask
one. Transvestites are typically straight, "drag queens" are generally gay.
I have met women who correspond to "drag queens" - they like to dress
up as men and go out, show off, get into the role playing, and it's a
kick. I like doing it myself sometimes.  But it isn't an explicit turn on -
putting on a man's shirt and tie doesn't get me hot, it just is fun
because it's a"in-your-face" to society, and also an "I'm a dyke" signal to
other women.

But I have never met a woman who gets sexual excitement from dressing
up as a man.  Isn't that odd?

D!

    re: men can now wear earrings = change

    	You know what I find amazing sometimes to remember while discussing
    	whether such-and-such clothes/style is too 'manly' or too
    	'womanly', is the fact that in ancient civilizations it was the MEN
    	who adorned themselves in jewelry to display their manhood, and it 
    	was the women who were not allowed to display such extravagant 
    	costume. Particularly amoung the Egyptian men.

    	Amazing that somewhere along the way the roles got switched. Again
    	bringing up the argument about how much of this 'to be a man' and 
    	'to be a woman' stuff isn't all just purely socialization...

    	-Erik

    no kidding....I didn't even think of THAT, Erik. Even the male of
    the species in the fish & bird world are decorated w/ more color & 
    plumage. People are strange beings..... where'd this idea of
    attractiveness come from? 
    
    Bon

    re .11 I vaguely recall reading that in nature, the gaudier the
    male, the more the choice of mates is up to the female. (And
    notice that men's suits are uniformly drab gray, navy or black.)

    I'm not sure we should be taking directions, sexually and in choosing
    partners, from the animal world, since there are such a wide array of
    behaviours displayed there.
    
    Various antelope, sea lion, and elephant seal, and lion males fight for
    and maintain a territory and the right to mate with the females therein.
    In these cases the size of their fighting equipment (sheer bulk, or
    antlers/horns, or fangs) are deterministic.  The male lion has to be
    nice though, or the female won't accept him.  But the females seem to
    accept that a new pride male will kill all the cubs.
    
    Chimps (according to Jane Goodall) do much the same, but a smart male
    can dominate other males by display only, and I think females can join
    another troop.
    
    What do elephants do?  Adult males are not tolerated in the herds of
    reproductive females.  Don't know how the elephants choose.
    
    Horses gather and keep more or less by force a band of mares, but I
    think it is a savvy mare that determines the travel direction (usu
    between water holes).
    
    Various male birds and fish rely on their skill at building nest
    structures and enticing females to pick them.
    
    Prairie chickens and other animals have the showy male displays to
    impress the females.
    
    Innumerable male horseshoe crabs mob one female.
    
    (all of the above is from memory, and is far from an exhaustive list)

    Re .14 and the horseshoe crabs: Really??? What a peculiar image! I
    mean, think of a horde of horseshoe crabs, all looking like gigantic,
    armored sperm cells, mobbing some poor female crab [who also looks like
    a gigantic, armored sperm cell, which makes the scene even weirder]...
    
    <snicker>
    
    -b

    it's true.  that particular reproductive strategy follows a common one
    for ocean-going critters; release of a cloud of eggs and sperm in the
    same general vicinity.  Don't know why horseshoe crab males mob a
    single female, or even how they find her, but I do remember the image
    pretty clearly (wide wide world of animals fan --
    just call me peter pan, or mary martin if you prefer!)

    I agree on not taking our animal friends as sexual role models, but how
    about all the 100%-human cultures which allowed (i.e., required,
    fashions being what they are) men to dress to the gaudy nines -- my
    beloved Restoration, or Elizabethan England, to grab some Eurocentric
    examples?  Of course, this meant men had to spend huge amounts of money
    on transient and uncomfortable clothing, but hey, it's worth it to look
    good!
    
    Which reminds me of the Replacements song, "Androgynous", which starts:
    
    	Here comes Dick, he's wearing a skirt
    	Here comes Jane, she's sporting some chains
    
    and ends:
    
    	And tomorrow Janie's wearing a dress, tomorrow Dick is wearing pants,
    	Future outcasts, it won't last
    
    written back when Paul Westenberg occasionally wore a skirt.
    
    (Not that any of this has anything to do with crossdressing.)
    
    Ray

    About elephants,
    
    mostly the females live in herds with the young and adolescent males.
    When the teenaged boy elephants grow up they leave the herd (are
    thrown out??) and hang out together until full maturity.
    
    When a female is ready to mate she calls out a very low song --
    people can't hear it, it is too low a note -- and then chooses among
    the males that respond.  Sometimes the responding males fight.
    
    About crossdressing:
    
    I've been crossdressing for years as a pratical measure: men's clothes
    are generally cheaper and sturdier than women's.  At one time there
    was a law in NY state about the percentage of clothes of one's own
    birth gender one had to be wearing to avoid being booked for
    transvestism.  While I mostly flunked the ratio, I had male friends
    who were busted while I was not.  The charge was usually dropped
    against them.
    
    Think about the television ad of a woman who dresses in her lovers
    clothes (jocky shorts and all!!!) and then he telephones her.  She
    says, "I was thinking about you."   
    
    Men crossdressing has always been a dicier area societally. I'm
    amused that many of my drag queen friends are better dressed, more
    feminine and more petite than I am.  I have also known crossdressing
    strate men.  They seem quite masculine to me, but simply have a
    sexual turnon that is considered gay for some reason.
    
    Mostly any turnon between a human and an inanimate object is fine
    with me as long as it is in a generally healthy human context. 
    If the object gets in the way of other functioning and other
    relationships, then help may be needed to understand the sexuality
    and the strength of the attachment to the object.  
    
       Margaret  (who is dressed about 50/50 today)

    
    re. -1
    
    Well, I have a bra and women's underwear on.  The rest comes from 
    the men's department as I fit into them better...jeans, tee shirt,
    flannel shirt, crew socks and  Nike Air.  Oh no, did I just "come 
    out"? :-)
    
    Debbi

    re: horseshoe crabs
    
    Garter snakes mob a single female too.  It's called a mating ball.
    
    re: .21  on elephants
    
    I think I wanna be an elephant :-)
    
    Mary

    I'm posting this reply for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    -Jody
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    

	To .0:

    	You are certainly not alone, I could've written almost the	
    same entry.  Thanks for starting the string.

	To all:

    	Topics 700 & 702 (on lesbian/bi/gay issues) have been very	
    interesting & enlightening.  One recent addition (702.191)	hits on an
    important point:

	>The other question is how people view or label themselves.  I tend to
	>the use the terms lesbian-identified, gay-identified,
	>bisexual-identifed, heterosexual-identified.  This refers to how you
	>view yourself.  

	Two questions I'd like to pose:
	- Do souls (for want of a better term) have gender?
	- If so, how closely is the soul's gender-identity associated
	  with one's body?

    	It seems to me that much of one's feelings towards sexual	
    orientation/preference issues depends on their views to these	
    questions.  I tend to believe that gender-identity belongs	as a layer
    on the "you" inside, not the other way around.

    	And there's no inherent reason this identity must be 100% male	or
    female.  Our bodies, surely, have to be one or the other,	that's
    physical reality.  But dissociate yourself from your	body for a
    moment...Are you 99% 'masculine'/1% 'feminine'?	(Or vice-versa; 
    for argument's sake, I'll use those terms 	as defined in the
    dictionary)  Perhaps 98%/2%? ..How about 51%/49%?

    	Speaking just for my (male) self, there is a certain part of my
    being (not all, just part) that is female-oriented, from an identity
    aspect.  I can deny it, suppress it, or ignore it, but I've come to the
    realization that this part of me exists...and no denial will make it
    simply go away.  Not that I try, but like .0, society in general
    (including my spouse) cannot accept it, so I have to be discreet, hence
    this anonymity.  Yet I've always felt comfortablein the company of
    women, and this part of me enjoys 'connecting emotionally' with women
    as mentioned elsewhere in the conference.  (Once I even dreamt I was
    pregnant, it was a strangely pleasant dream!)

    	It may be just a matter of labels, but I don't feel I crossdress	
    as such, it's more a matter of expression of this 'alter ego'.	
    True, the ramifications can be harmful if not handled with care.	
    There's also the double standard of women being able to express	
    their 'masculine' side in their dress, but that's another topic. I
    guess you have to be content with how you see yourself, and	this no
    doubt spills over into how you accept others, whether of similar
    or differing orientation.

    	A lot of the efforts (and successes) achieved by les/bi/gays as
    noted elsewhere are encouraging, thanks to those gutsy enough to come
    to grips with their inner selves.  One thing I always wondered about
    was, how lesbians might view males who either crossdressed or had other
    conventionally-feminine characteristics.  To paraphrase a popular
    comment, sometimes I feel like a lesbian in a man's body!
    

The following reply is from a member of the community who wishes to be 
    anonymous
    
    Bonnie Reinke
    wn comod
    
    as with all anonymous replies the moderators who entered them will
    forward mail to the anonymous individual for you if you wish.
    
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RE:  .24

Great note!  I'd like to address some of the points you brought up and
share some of my personal experiences.  As a male to female transexual I've
had to deal with many of these issues and feel like I've come out the other
side on some of them.

I've had to deal with how others label us and and how I label myself.  For
most of my life I tried to define who I was in terms of the societal
definition based on the sex of the body.  It wasn't a happy time and in the
end no amount of personal success in my life could cover up my despair with
the male role.  After surgery, in my new life as a woman, I eventually
found a harmonious expression of physical body and spiritual soul.  From my
experience I believe that gender is a societal construct and is not tied to
biological sex.  This is what I believe, other's mileage may vary.  I feel
like my identity is a blending of what this culture defines as masculine
and feminine traits, but that my soul is neither.  

You touched on the idea of being a lesbian in a man's body.  The issue of
sexual orientation was funny for me.  As a male I never thought much about
orientation; I liked women and felt a close bonding with my wife.  During
my early psychological evaluation one doctor asked me what would happen
with my wife if I went through with the surgery.  I told him I'd like to
continue living together, if she wanted to.  With that "Ahha! I know what
your problem is" look, he confronted me with, "So you'd be a lesbian!"  I
hadn't really thought that far ahead about what I'd be, but I couldn't
argue with him and I said yes.  At that same instant I knew I had said the
wrong thing.  I'd have to pretend to be hetersexual or I'd never get a
psychiatrist's ok for surgery.  Years of living life in the male role had
taught me how to do this roleplaying.  I did it so well that it was two
years after the surgery before I realized I had always preferred the
companionship of women and I came out as a lesbian.

I experienced the male role as very restrictive, to the point of stifiling
my will to live.  At the same time I was afraid to challenge the societal
norms, partly because I thought I was the only one who felt the discomfort
and that there must be something wrong with me, but more because deep
inside I didn't know where to set the limits of behaviour.  I felt that any
expression of self that was not destructive to myself or others should be
allowed.  Gender based roles were so artificial.  These felt like totally
off the wall ideas in the 60's and 70's and I never gave them any serious
consideration

I can certainly understand your desire to be discrete.  I share the same
concern!  I started cross-dressing when I was 12, and no amount of
self-imposed willpower could make the desire go away.  Even the threats of
reprisal from our culture had no effect.  I tried my best to keep my
cross-dressing secret, and that intesified my feelings of being different
and defective.  Looking back I realize that I was expressing my feminine
side, and cross-dressing was the only outlet I allowed for myself.

Our cultural norms have loosened up somewhat in the past twenty years but I
think we've got a long ways to go.  Even now I carry some societally
internalized prohibitions and I feel them sometimes when I see men who
cross-dress.  I still have some work to do.  There are many men and women
out there who are challenging the societal norms, and I'm glad they're
doing this work.  In my own way I have challenged a few stereotypes too.

Good luck in your life experience!  Life can be strange at times, but one
thing I have learned is that no one can tell me what is right for me.  If I
want to be hapy I  have to listen to my inner voice, and if I choose to
act, then I stand ready to take responsibility for those actions.  

It's the only way to fly!

    Here's another approximate quote from "Hair".
    
    "There is a peculiar notion
    That elegent plumage
    And fine feathers
    Are not proper for the male...
    
    But aaaaaaaaaaaa(...)aactually,
    That is the way things are
    In most species."
    
    It sounds a lot more powerful sung, certain words are emphasized
    nicely.  I think it's right after a speech that the person singing
    wishes every parent would give their child
    	"Kids, do whatever you want, be whoever you want, just so long as
    you don't hurt anyone.  And remember kids, I am your friend."
    
    Rachael

    Bulwer-Lytton has a lot to answer for.
    
    Not only did he start a novel with "It was a dark and stormy night"
    but when his title character (different book, I think), Pelham,
    declared that it was the height of elegance for a man to dress in
    the utter simplicity of black and white, *poof* British eveningwear
    changed overnight.  (Followed the next night by Parisiens and the
    next week by Americans.)  Pfui.
    
    						Ann B.

The language _may_ be dividing us again...

	Bulwer-Lytton has a lot to answer for.
    
    Not only did he start a novel with "It was a dark and stormy night"
    but when his title character (different book, I think), Pelham,
    declared that it was the height of elegance for a man to dress in
    the utter simplicity of black and white, *poof* British eveningwear
    changed overnight.  (Followed the next night by Parisiens and the
    next week by Americans.)  Pfui.

						Ann B.

"Poof" is a fairly derogatory British English slang term for gay. I expect Ann
didn't mean it as such, but in the context it could have seemed remarkably
uncharitable. It is not surprising we all upset each other so much in Notes
when all we have to go on are the representation of words.

Phillip

    >but when his title character (different book, I think), Pelham,
    >declared that it was the height of elegance for a man to dress in
    >the utter simplicity of black and white, British eveningwear
    >changed overnight.  
    
    Small rathole:
    Actually, the most totally and utterley correct evening jackets
    are very, very dark blue.
    
    Just one of those 1001 useless things you always wanted to know.....
    'gail             
    

    I realize after reading this topic that one of my uncles was into
    crossdressing a bit when he was younger.  I remember that in the '50's
    and early '60's, before it was in style for men to have long hair, he
    wore his hair long (it wasn't very attractive, sort of hung in clumps)
    and pinned it back with either a woman's barrette or bobby pins.  Once
    a couple of my friends were over when he was at the house.  This was
    during grade school.  After we left, my friends were teasing me about
    my uncle's hair and laughing at me and asking me why my uncle had hair
    like a woman.   Also, one time he showed up at our house dressed in a
    suit but with women's high heeled pumps on!  I remember my father was
    completely disgusted with him, and my mother tried to joke about by
    saying,"*What* are you doing with women's shoes on for goodness
    sake?!!"  Sometimes I used to be embarrassed by him.  He was rather an
    eccentric character in other ways, too.  He drove a hearse for awhile -
    I mean he owned a hearse for his personal car - and things like that. 
    I remember once my brother told me that this uncle wore women's
    underpants, too, but I don't know how he knew.
    
    Anyway, I think it's sort of funny that I had forgotten all about this
    until now.  One problem is that society's "rules" about how men and
    women are supposed to dress can result in a lot of embarrassment for
    family members of people who cross dress in public.  Although, ideally,
    of course, I think people should be able to dress anyway they want to
    dress.
    
    Lorna
    

Ann B says:

>it was the height of elegance for a man to dress in
>    the utter simplicity of black and white, *poof* British eveningwear
>    changed overnight. 

Phillip says:

>"Poof" is a fairly derogatory British English slang term for gay. I expect Ann
>didn't mean it as such, but in the context it could have seemed remarkably
>uncharitable. 

Hee hee.  Actually the double meaning of the word "poof" hadn't occured
to me, but when you pointed it out, I actually found Ann's statement
above hysterical.  It is a common legend in the gay community that straight
fashions *follow* gay fashions.  (After all, many famous designers
are gay.)  It seems that as soon as something becomes very popular in 
LesBiGay culture, a general trend is soon to follow.  Take earrings on men, for
instance - now de riguer for hip youth, once only worn my gay men.  :-) :-)

So actually, *poof* British eveningwear probably did changed before straight
British eveningwear.  ;-)

D!

gay designers implies the prexeistance of designers.

I suspect the change to black and white for British male evening wear occured
before the existance of "fashion designers" catering for men...

/. Ian .\

    This is being posted for another anonymous member of the
    community.
    
    -Jody
    
________________________________________________________________________________

>>>    My wife will wear certain items only rarely. Is there no other way to 
>>>    experience this without having to wear these yourself? When she was 
>>>    willing to wear them more frequently, for some reason I did not feel
>>>    the need to do so myself.

	Your problem is that your wife is seeing this as object-sex.
	That is, that your arousal is by these 'clothes' and not her.
	'She used to, but now will not' shows me she is worried about this
	and has therefore stopped.
    
	I believe that she feels that you are reducing her sexuality to 
	peep show underwear.

	You will only fix this by making her understand that you want her in
	these things and not just the things on 'someone'. This may be 
	difficult. Many women enjoy 'dressing-up' as do many men, so it is not 
	an impossible thing to get fixed.

	Perhaps she'd like you in something ? Maybe you could start
	by asking if there's something you could wear for her ?
    

    
    
    I am posting this reply for still *another* noter who wishes to remain
    anonymous.  If anyone would like to contact this noter, I will gladly
    forward electronic mail (with or without your name/address), or can
    pass on to you a post office box they use.
    
    -Jody
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I wrote this *view* of crossdressing over a year ago when I thought I'd 
    respond to a prior note (I believe it was 272 in Mennotes).  I never 
    found the courage to send it.  Not a lot has changed but with the help
    of  various support groups I am becoming more comfortable.  The fact
    that I  wrote a response well over a year and just sat on it shows what
    many of  us go through.  Indecision, What if?, What's wrong with me?

    The biggest step for me came about 8 months ago when I went to see a 
    counselor, about the fourth visit it was obviouly clear to me that he
    was  putting a *RIGHT/WRONG* label on this activity and something
    clicked in  me that said for all my doubts and wondering I never felt
    like it was  *WRONG* (that translates -- sinful, deviate, bad etc.)  I
    never went  back.  I participate on several BBS's and communicate with
    the TRIESS  organization.  TRIESS (Society for the Second Self) is an
    organization  for heterosexual crossdressers.  It is sometimes billed
    as a sorority  without women but in fact many wives and SO's
    particpate.  Though I have  not yet attended any meetings, I would
    recomend communication with a  TRIESS group as a good next step in
    dealing with these emotions.

    My intention is to say to the base noter that he is not alone and I do 
    remember feeling that way.

    Again, I'm including the following so others might see how I felt a
    year  ago and by the info above sense how I feel now.  IMHO there's an 
    improvement.

                        (Written 11-January-1990)

    I have looked for information on crossdressing for many years.  I gave
    up looking in libraries when I didn't find anything in the card files
    because I don't/wouldn't have the nerve to ask for help in finding the
    books that I would have interest in.
    
    Most of the literature that I have seen has been either of the style
    where "boy puts on girls' clothing and has sex as a girl with a guy" or
    "boy puts on girls' clothing and dreams of becoming a girl."  I've yet
    to find any literature that deals strictly with heterosexual TV's.
    
    I'm struggling with understanding being strictly heterosexual yet I
    find enjoyment wearing items of female dress.
    
    Though I'm looking for someone to talk to, I'm not sure what the
    conversation would be.  
    
    If I could step aside from myself I might think that any man that
    *dressed* would be *gay* yet I *know* I'm *NOT* (my words or thoughts
    are not to be viewed as a good/bad judgment).
    
    I have even asked myself "What can I do or what can I be when dressed
    as a woman that I can't when dressed male?"  Since I can't/don't go out
    *dressed* I in effect become a *closed* *secretive* person that dressed
    male I'm not.
    
    My characteristics of caring, understanding, patience, and sensitivity
    are often misread by others.  I'm having trouble putting into words
    how I think that others misread these characteristics and actually view
    me in a negative manner because of them.  I don't mean to imply that
    *men* don't have these characteristics but I believe that I have them
    to the point that they would be expected of a female over a male.
    
    I recall a poster comparing male and female characteristics that 
    viewed the same trait in the man being understanding while the female 
    would be viewed as indecisive.  My level of these characteristics 
    would bring about the *female* comparison.
    
    I'm not looking to *dress* at work.  Nor live as a female.  I would put
    my desire in the vein of how we dress when going out to enjoy
    ourselves.  Everyone *dresses up* in their own way when going to the
    beach, to a football game, a formal event etc.  I could see myself
    going to a show, shopping etc. dressed as a female.  I guess I see our
    pleasure clothes (crossdressing is a pleasure to me) as an opportunity
    to show a side of our personalities.

    I'm interested in hearing others opinion and particularly interested 
    in hearing from those who would call themselves purely hetro 
    crossdressers.
    
    
For further information you may contact any of the following groups.

	TriEss				Phi Epsilon Mu Chapter
	P.O. Box 194			P.O. Box 3261
	Tulane, Ca.			Winter Park, Florida
		93275				32790-3261

	Sigma Epsilon Chapter		Kappa Beta Chapter
	S-129, 8084 N. Davis Hwy, E3	P.O. Box 12101
	Pensacola, Florida		Charlotte, N.C.
			32514			28220-2101

	IFGE (International Fondation for Gender Education)
	P.O. Box 367
	Wayland, Mass.
		01778

    		"Thank god I was born a woman,
     		 or I'd have been a drag queen".
    
    				-Dolly Parton
    
    I've know both Gay and Straight cross dressers.  IMO I have found gays
    to be more comfortable with cross dressing.  Personally I have enjoyed
    wearing mens clothes much more than womens.  I find them durable, 
    comfortable and less expensive.  
    
    Heidi

I'm field testing some game software that allows interactive game playing
across a network. This software allows you to construct a "picture" of yourself
that other people see. The picture is built by choosing various alternatives
for facial features, skin color, hair color, hair style, and clothing. I
found that I couldn't come very close to my appearance using their "male"
alternatives, so I built one that's MUCH closer to the way I look - using the
"female" settings.

Hmmm...

I wonder how many men would have tried that?

I wonder how many of the other net participants are going to realize that this
is a "female" persona with a male name?

	-- Charles