Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    re .0,
    
    It is like birthday cards.  It is symbolic.
    
    Eugene

    I think you hadda-be-there during Nam to understand the difference that
    hometown support can mean.  Yes, all the things you mention are
    concrete examples of support, but support is also in the attitudes we
    hold toward service personnel.  None of them, or certainly a very small
    percentage of them, wishes to be in the situation they find themselves
    in.  But they feel it is their job.  They deserve respect from everyone
    for doing that job, whether or not we agree with the principles /
    principals which put them in that place.
    
    mdh

    Ribbons of other colors are sometimes used to express symbolic support
    for peace (and, specifically, opposition to U.S. participation in the
    Gulf War).  White is sometimes a color of choice, although from what I
    have heard green seems to be more popular.

    -- Mike

    
    	I heard on the radio that the yellow ribbon 'thing' started
    	when Americans were being held hostage in Iran.  Now that
    	we've gone to war with Iraq, people are using the same 
    	symbol.....to bring them home safely.
    
    	Don't know if that's true but that's the way I heard it.
    
    	JJ
    

    The whole yellow ribbon evolution, stymies me.
    
    "tie a Yellow Ribbon round the Old Oak Tree"
       a song about a guy coming home from prison, none to sure of his
       welcome ... but the home folks still love him and tie 'a hundred
       yellow ribbons ...'
    
    it gets a lot of play
    
    we have hostages in Iran for 434 days [pretty long time]
    They come home and this song gets play and a lot of yellow ribons are
    tied on trees and mailboxes and arm-bands in celebration
    
      now the song is a symbol of welcome home and support for those held
      incarcerated against their will
    
    OK, so that's a small step
    
    half a squillion of our military troops are shipped off to the dessert
    and suddenly we see people sporting yellow ribbons on their lapels and
    car antennas and mailboxes.
    
    Silly me ... at first I thought that these yellow ribbons were a symbol
    of our hope that the people of Kuwait would soon be freed from their
    bondage/oppression what with Iraq occupying their country and all.
    
    In the beginning I saw red/white/blue ribbons in support of the troops,
    but apparently the yellow ribbon JuJu is more powerful.
    
      I really feel like I slept too near a pod or something; because most
    of the people I see with these yellow jobbies don't seem to think out
    troops are in bondage.
    
    
    
    and _suddenly_ 

    Personally, I support the troops but I am getting tired of seeing
    all these ribbons. (And I wonder if any of the money from yellow
    ribbon sales is getting to the troops, or civilain casualties,
    or families of troops, etc.) 
    
    re .0 Remember that gawdawful song by Tony Orlando and Dawn ? 

    re  .6, I'm glad someone else said it first.  I'm really sick of seeing
    yellow ribbons everywhere, too!  I get the impression that some people
    are just joining in because it makes them feel good to be part of some
    common cause, regardless of what it is, so they stick a yellow ribbon
    on their car or whatever.
    
    Lorna
    

    The yellow ribbon is an old welcome-home tradition.  The earliest
    I remember reading about it is after the Civil War, when families
    of returning soldiers would tie a yellow ribbon around their tree
    or porch post to indicate that their soldier was safely home.  A
    black ribbon meant you'd found out your soldier was dead.  There's
    a rather touching though stickily sentimental poem about the
    mother putting out a yellow ribbon for the son who came home at
    the same time she put out a black one for the son who didn't.  
    
    --bonnie

RE .8

Thanks.

Much as I'm tired of seeing them (primarily because they remind me of "that
hideous song"), I'm very happy to hear the tradition did not *begin* with
Tony Orlando and Dawn.

I had this sneaking suspicion that every time a new one went up, he got another
$1 in royalties.

    The town of Marlboro, MA has yellow ribbons tied around every
    telephone/utility pole.
    
    Jim

    Some of the sales (you do have to be selective) have royalties going to
    disabled vets.

       I think it's a great idea. Mine has been there for quite some
    time. 
       I also send letters and goodies "over there" as do most people
    I know who went to the small trouble of putting a ribbon or a flag
    on their car.
       I've heard from VN vets that some of them felt as if they were
    forgotten over there.  Everytime a person sees my car they are 
    reminded that our people are over there doing what they can for our
    country.
       If you put one out for no other reason than this, I think it's
    a good idea.
    
    
    
                                    L.J. 
       

        I liked the group Tony Orlando and Dawn, and their music,
        and their tv show.  The lyrics to a lot of the songs can
        get pretty mindless but the music was good.
        
        Dan

    With out reading the 13 replies before me I have to say this...
    
    
    GET A CLUE WILL YOU....
    
    REK

    I have seen all the ribbons and I think after the nasty welcome our
    troops had when they came home from Vietnam, its only proper to
    let them know we care. I also care about the people in Kuwait and
    hope someday soon they can start to rebuild their city and lives.
    Even though there is a war we should have some kind of compassion
    for the people on the other side who are suffering. So i dobn't
    think there is anything wrong with keeping some hope on the
    minds of people.

    
    RE: Back a few
    
    	I was told that it all started with that song from Tony Orlando &
    Dawn, until Bonnie posted her reply I hadn't heard any different.  It's
    good to hear there's a little more behind it than that.
    
    Joe

    dredging from the ol' vast wealth of useless trivia.....
    
    Tony Orlando And Dawn - Tie A Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree
    
    
    "I'm coming home, I've done my time
    and I've got to know what is and isn't mine
    if you received my letter telling you I'd soon be free
    Then you know just what to do if you still want me
    if you still want me
    
    Tie a yellow ribon round the old oak tree
    it's been three long years, do you still want me?
    if I don't see a ribbon round the old oak tree
    I'll stay on the bus, forget about us
    put the blame on me
    If I don't see that yellow ribbon round the old oak tree
    
    ........(can't remember the next verse)..........
    
    .............(at the very end, sung slowly).......
    Now the whole damn bus is cheering
    And I can't believe I see.....
    A hundred yellow ribbons tied around that old oak tree....
    
    
    
    -Jody
    

    Ah Richard, you've missed out on Southern religion!
    
    Somewhere between the Civil War and Tony Orlando's song, the yellow
    ribbon story of the returning prisoner was used in Southern revivals:  
    the man had been in prison for 20 years and wasn't sure whether he 
    would be welcome.  "Just tie a yellow ribbon around a tree where I 
    can see it from the train.  If I see a yellow ribbon, I'll get off 
    the train and come home; if not, I'll keep on going."
    
    When he approached his home town, *every tree in sight* had a yellow
    ribbon!!  And that, says the Southern evangelist, is how much God
    wants us to return to Him!
    
    :-)
    Nancy

    Re:17... A closet Tony and Dawn fan.... I knew there was a few
    still around...
    
    REK

    Even though the ribbons may be tiresome to some, I believe one of the
    immediate positive outcomes is that it shows the waiting families and
    loved ones that we care about them too.
    
    

    re: .10  NORTHBORO is the town that has gone overboard with the 
             yellow ribbons on every telephone pole, not Marlboro.
    
    I really think that people are wearing the ribbons or putting the
    ribbons on public display because everyone else is doing it.  It's
    seems to be getting entirely out of hand.
    
    I'm glad that the people of the US are behind our government in 
    this war with Iraq.  SH is a crazy person.  But PLEASE, enough
    with the yellow ribbons.
    
    L
    

    
    Say you care about the people of Iraq - is there a color for that?
    
    D.

        re .-1
        
        I think the color green is associated with Islam.
        
        Dan

    Somewhere recently I was told or read that there were different
    colored ribbons for civil war soldiers, depending on what branch
    of the service they were in. Has anyone else heard of this?
    
    Bonnie J

    	I don't know about the different colored ribbons, but I know
    I've also seen red ribbons around, most noticeably on cars (tied
    to antennas and doors).  Some have both the yellow and the red.
    What are the red ones supposed to indicate?

    	amy

    amy,
    
    The red ribbons are from M.A.D.D. (Mothers Against Drunk Driving). 
    Every year they have a campaign around the late-year holidays.  They
    hand out these ribbons, and people who will not be drinking and driving
    put them on their cars.  It is to signify that "this is a sober car."
    (yes, yes, I know.  *My* car hasn't been drunk in a long time, either!)
    
    Anyway, some of us just never get around to taking them off.
    
    E Grace

    The yellow ribbons I feel have become a mindless decoration.  I've
    seen ribbons the size of watermelons hanging from the rear view
    mirrors.  What better way to color a bleak and dark winter day than
    to hang a couple of million yellow ribbons around everything in sight.
    Now I'm seeing the first of the casualties--ribbons lying in gutters
    waiting for the street cleaners to pick them up.
    
    I've put a candle in my window, I feel a lot of sorrow for the soldiers
    there, but a lot of anger, fury, and exasperation for the
    administration that put them there.   I think the yellow ribbon thing
    is giving Bush just that much more adrenalin.
    
    BTW,
    
    Did anyone else here Charles Kuralt's interview yesterday?  He asked
    a spokesperson from the White HOuse why BUsh didn't wait since
    Gorbachev's proposal wasn't that far off line, and the man replied,
    'because Bush has a personal vendetta against Hussein.'  (quote may
    not be word accurate but to that idea).  SO is that why this generation
    is over there, risking their lives?
    
    Maia
    

    
    You are no doubt familiar with the concept of the athlete who is
    overtrained: they have passed peak fitness, and consequently compete at
    a disadvantage.
    
    The same applies to soldiers: they were at peak, but any delay due to
    the Iraqi inspired Soviet endorsed time wasting exercise would have
    resulted in the troops being past their peak, and hence in a loss of
    life amongst our folks.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Well, I didn't read all of the replies but I must respond.
    
    To those of you who are tired of the ribbons...they are not for you.
    
    When our troops come home, and see houses, cars, lapels, etc... adorned
    with the symbol of concern and support, you can bet it will be
    appreciated.  And those who are left behind sure do appreciate knowing
    there are people all around them who are worried, praying, and making
    an effort in some small way to say "We Care".
    
    From one left behind military wife, and on behalf of a dear friend
    who's husband is in the sand, I say 
    		
    		THANK YOU.
    
    Those silly ribbons mean alot to us.
    
    Sue 

    Hmm,
    
    not sure if our troops would have passed-peak performance; a friend
    of mine finished basic training last week in Georgia and is on his
    way to the Gulf this week. 
    
    m.
    

    Please do not let this discussion start becoming another war note.
    We'll try and have the guidelines for a new war note set up sometime
    today.
    
    Bonnie

RE:  .27
    
    
>    The yellow ribbons I feel have become a mindless decoration.
    
    Is this how you describe people you decorate with yellow ribbons? 
    Mindless?
    
    

>    'because Bush has a personal vendetta against Hussein.'  (quote may
>    not be word accurate but to that idea).  SO is that why this generation
>    is over there, risking their lives?
    
>    Maia
 
    Rumors and misquotes fly almost as fast as an F-15, don't they?  
    
    
    NICK
     

    
    I have yellow ribbons decorated all over the place.  My front door, my
    car, my lapels.  I plan on demonstrating my support for our troops and
    continue my hopes that this war will end soon with as few  casualities
    as possible on either side.
    
    My husband is a Vietnam War Vet.  He thinks the support which is being
    shown, even in small ways - like wearing a yellow ribbon - is absolutly
    wonderful.  I agree.
    
    
    jean
    

    Poor John Ford!  Oh, how he must be weeping in his grave!
    
    (Ann totters around the stage, emoting fulsome distress that would
    have been considered hokey in a 1910 film.)
    
    Has everyone forgotten the classic Western, "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"?
    
    						Ann B.

 Around her neck,
she wore a yellow ribbon,
she wore it in the spring-time
and the merry month of may. 

and when I asked her why she wore the ribbon
she said it's for her lover in the U.S Cavelry

Cavelry, Cavelry, 
she said it's for her lover
in the U.S. Calvery.

Amos who saw the movie when it first came out at the local Paramount
theatre and paid $.35 admission. :-} :-} :-}

    RE: .35
    
> Amos who saw the movie when it first came out at the local Paramount
> theatre and paid $.35 admission. :-} :-} :-}

    
    Just think.  Now, at a theatre, you can buy a paper cup for $.35 to
    hold some water from the drinking fountain.
    

    Re. those of you who think "this yellow ribbon thing has gone too far":
    
    The cynicism of this conference has reached an all-time low, in my 
    opinion, of course.  Why must you throw mud at those who choose to 
    express their concern for people who are risking their lives?
    
    It must have been a slow day at the office when you decided to express
    your disdain on this topic.  Why not start an equally cynical attack on
    mothers and apple pie?  Surely both are equally over-rated and far too
    prevalent.
    
    I display yellow ribbons at home and at the office.  (I haven't hung
    one on my car yet, but I may yet.)  I've added a touch of red-white-and
    blue to my ribbons to show that I support the war effort as well.  
    
    I don't condemn you if you don't.  I happen to believe in valuing
    differences.  
    
    Your cynicism toward my values makes me sick.
    
    Karen  

    Re: .29 & .33
    
    RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
    
    My godchild's brother is in Saudi Arabia, her car has a yellow ribbon
    in the back window.  The other day as she was driving to work some 
    jerk pointed to her ribbon and gave her an obscenity!!  How dicusting!
    Her brother is risking his life and this is the respect they show.  
    I must admit that they have no way of knowing she has someone so close
    to her serving out there, so why not just button it!  Do they (whoever
    'they' maybe) think the loved ones of those serving are living on another 
    planet.  She was hurt to tears.
    
    & RE: .33
    My husband is also a Viet Nam Vet and the yellow ribbons have such a
    special meaning to him.  He said if he had seen only a few ribbons upon
    his return home from the war, he would not have felt so betrayed and
    abused.  Their coming home was almost as bad as the war itself.
    
    I wear my yellow ribbon everyday.  And I just pray that today will be
    the last day anyone has to wear/display them.
    
    

    Karen,
    
    Please don't confuse the responses of individuals with 'the file'.
    You are as much 'the file' as anyone else is. If one person expresses
    a thought or idea that you find objectionable, that is just that
    one person, it is not the policy of the file, if there indeed could
    be such a thing.
    
    Bonnie

    re a few back regarding red ribbons.
    
    I'd hate to be the poor homeowner who inadvertantly displayed a red
    ribbon round the old oak tree in my neighborhood....that's the sign the
    surveyors use to mark trees to be removed for road widening and power
    lines, etc.
    
    ;^)

We'll probably have to leave the final determination of yellow ribbon signific-
ance to the cultural historians. It's certainly a symbol from way back in the
country's history but I believe that Viet Nam and the Iranian hostages made it
the powerful symbol it is today.

I think our country has a national guilt about what happened to the servicemen
and women returning from Viet Nam. This is to expiate that guilt and prove it
won't happen again. liesl

    Re. .39 (B_Reinke):
    
    Believe me, Bonnie, I don't confuse the responses of individuals with
    "the file," but I do notice a drift in "the file" away from the
    supportive, sensitive, warm atmosphere that originally drew me here and
    toward a hard, cynical, abrasive, confrontational tone that is driving
    me away.  Perhaps those of you who have followed my noting here over
    the last two years (all two of you 8-}) have noticed a marked decrease 
    in my responses.  It's no accident.  I no longer feel comfortable and I 
    no longer feel welcome.  I don't take it personally.  But I do limit my 
    exposure to the anger and, yes, even hatred that exudes from this 
    conference these days.  There's enough confrontation in my days already.  
    I don't need to come here for more.
    
    Certain responses in this string are just one of the latest examples.
    
    Karen

    Believe me, Bonnie, I don't confuse the responses of individuals with
    "the file," but I do notice a drift in "the file" away from the
    supportive, sensitive, warm atmosphere that originally drew me here and
    toward a hard, cynical, abrasive, confrontational tone that is driving
    me away.

	...
    
    Certain responses in this string are just one of the latest examples.
    
Karen, I don't know how to say this, but where in the spectrum of possibilities
that you mention above do you think *your* response was?

The tone of this file comes from the notes of the people who participate. To
change the tone, simply enter more notes of the tone you'd prefer.

	-- Charles

    Thank you Charles,
    
    I'd like to encourage everyone to try and enter the sort of supportive
    sensitive warm notes that they have always liked and to do their
    best to ignore those who enter the other kind.
    
    We are *all* womannotes and it is up to *all* of us to set the tone.
    As moderators we can lead and encourage and suggest but it takes
    the file to make the file.
    
    Bonnie

    Re. .43 (OXNARD::HAYNES)
    
>  ...where in the spectrum of possibilities
>  that you mention above do you think *your* response was?
    
    Well, actually I intended my response to be in the area of support (for
    the troops and for those "mindless" (to quote another response in this
    string) individuals who display yellow ribbons, and at the same time
    confrontational for those individuals (note, not "the file" as several
    of you have interpreted my reply .37) who are derisive of yellow ribbons 
    and the "mindless" people who display them.
    
    Thank you for asking.
    Karen
            

    thankyou very much, Karen.

    I guess I have to voice my support for Karen here.  I believe that
    those individuals who have nothing nice to say should button their lip. 
    I don't think it's up to the rest of us to simply "ignore" what they
    have to say.  Years ago I was told, "If you can't say something nice,
    then don't say anything at all."  I'd like to put the onus back on
    being nice instead of ignoring the unfeeling comments.
    
    mdh

    Karen,

    I really hope you didn't think that I was personally 'putting you 
    down'. I've long regarded you as a good friend and I'd hate to
    have upset you with me or the file.

    What I'm asking all the womannoters is to speak softly, especially
    in these times of such great stress. Try to use 'I' messages, like
    we've encouraged in the 1.* note. And as a moderator, I must say,
    as I think those of you who read the file regularly know, that
    we are personally under a lot of stress right now.

    I'd like as a mod to encourage the members of the file to think of
    themselves as 'mini moderators' at least to the point that you
    don't expect us to get after you or anyone else who steps over
    the line of courtesy (i.e. to play 'parent', or 'mommy' or 'cop', 
    but rather to moderate your own speech and your response to people 
    with whom you object. The flavor of the file is the responsibility
    of all of us.

    One of the reasons that womannotes has been so successful for so
    long is that the members have traditionally taken that responsibility
    on themselves to make this a warm and comfortable place to note.

    It is my firm belief that we can continue to do so.

    hugs to all of you.

    Bonnie J

    comod

    I agree w/ Cheyenne. I don't care how sick of seeing my yellow ribbons
    anyone is!!! I have a friend over there who faced a moral delema when
    he left. He's as partiotic as the next guy (more so, actually) but he
    was very torn (in the begining) as to whether or not he was doing the
    right thing. he was worried about the welcome the Nam vets got & the
    reactions of the citizens of the US.
    
    Now he KNOWS why he's there & has no problem, but I still tell him
    about the support back home, the yellow ribbons, the support groups,
    the students (& others) sending mail, and even regular daily things
    that happen around town. They NEED our support!!
    
    How could someone actually assume they know why someone is wearing
    something? (Lorna!!?) This, to me, seems like a very closed minded way
    of thinking. If I was wearing a pair of torn jeans at work, would you
    assume it's because I just didn't care how I appear to other people?
    Or would you take into consideration, that my house may have burned
    down & this is all I have at the time?! I for one have NEVER in my
    adult life worn or done anything to "be like everyone else". And I
    certainly don't have a yellow ribbon on my car, front porch, mail box,
    & lapells because "it makes me feel good to be part of a common cause
    regardless of what it is". I'm VERY aware of the cause, & it doesn't
    make *ME* feel good to be wearing a yellow ribbon! It makes me very
    sad, but I support our men & women there & I want them to know it.
    
    A guy in my bldg is selling these really neat little flags w/ a yellow
    ribbon on them. When I commented on it, he sed, "I'm selling them,
    wanna buy one?" I asked where the money goes, & he sed, "In my pocket."
    I told him I didn't thing making money off the war was a very nice
    thing to do, & he didn't understand why....I didn't bother expalining.
    
    (another) Bonnie

    
    Well, ribbons are ribbons are ribbons. Tie them on, tie them off,
    there still dyed, fabric of some sort or another. 
    At any rate, in my note I stated that I feel a lot of sorrow for
    the soldiers there; I *know* first hand what it's like to be a
    wife with a husband who is MIA in a jungle somewhere.  ANd I know
    what it feels like to see and hear people of my age group demonstrating
    against what my husband and I believed in at the time.  
    
    I am not against the soldiers.  I am against the administration that
    feels war is the only way to solve a problem.  In the past days,
    it's become increasingly clear that Bush refuses negotiation of any
    sort.
    
    SO, bottom line, I would not sacrifice my child or my husband or
    myself for this cause.  It is not worthy.
    
    M.
    

    re .50, if I saw you at work wearing torn jeans I would assume that you
    were trying to look in style.  If I saw you wearing double knit slacks
    with an elastic waist *then* I would assume you didn't care how you
    looked.
    
    Lorna
    

    When I said that I was sick of seeing yellow ribbons everywhere I
    didn't intent to hurt anyone's feelings, least of all Karen whom I
    really like and respect.  I'm sorry that it struck you as being so
    offensive Karen.  I guess I should have realized that some people would
    be hurt, but it didn't.
    
    I certainly hope that all the troops come home safely.  I realize that
    they are just pawns in the game.  
    
    Lorna
    

    >If I saw you wearing double knit slacks
    >with an elastic waist *then* I would assume you didn't care how you
    >looked.
    
    They're very inexpensive, very comfortable, very easy to care for (even
    the one with stitched-down creases)!  But I don't wear them because
    they aren't "PC."  They occupy the place in society that jeans *used* to
    have when everyone looked down their noses at jeans!
    
    Life remains unfair.
    
    Nancy (who is incognito because LJOHUB is down)

    re .55, re jeans and polyester knit pants, I know. :-)  My father who
    was born in 1901 would never wear jeans and hated that I wore them all
    the time in the late '60's and early '70's.  He couldn't understand why
    I wanted to look like a bum or a migrant fruit picker or something. 
    :-)  Isn't fashion fun?!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

If there was a ribbon that symbolized my wish that all people stop
fighting (and not just "our side") and return home then I would wear
it.

We are all one people.

peace,
john

    re 57, yes, that's the ribbon I would wear, too.
    
    Lorna
    

        re .57   -< one sided ribbons >-
        
        Well, if you take a length of ribbon and give it a half
        twist and connect the ends, you get a one-sided ribbon. 
        Try it...you can trace your finger continuously around
        the entire ribbon surface.
        
        Dan

    Well, those of you who listened to Bush's address to Congress know that
    the first service personnel are coming home *tonight* from Saudi.
    Bush asked us to have a huge party for them all on the 4th of July. 
    Looks like it will take that long to bring 'em all home.
    
    
    big grins,
    Marge