Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Now i know i`ve been getting a lot of stick for putting
    irrelevant,boring mindless twaddle in these notes conferences,but when
    it comes to someone calling football boring - well that`s a different
    kettle of fish.
    
    Football is a game this country can be surely be proud of.
    
    Look at the great players we`ve produced - Nobby stiles,Bobby Charlton,
    Joe Royale,Billy McNeil,Jimmy Johnstone,Alan Ball,Sniffer,Big Norm - 
    the list is endless.
    
    What a great game of 90 minutes at the end of the day with the ball
    in the back of the net.
    
    Then again - if you`re talking about American football - then forget
    all the above.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    Well, there's American Football and there's European Football, a
    difference that had just sprung to my mind as I began to read this
    topic!  
    
    Frankly, I enjoy watching individual sports much more than team sports. 
    Diving, swimming, gymnastics, archery, billiards, ice dancing, ballroom
    dancing, etc.....
    
    One thing I know I don't like about football, well actually a few, are
    the HUGE sums of money involved, the violence, and the groupthink
    mentality that causes crowds to argue or trample one another when a row
    starts up.  Of course, I don't really like basketball or baseball
    either, but their less violent.  And I dislike boxing even more - two
    people trying to beat each other senseless.
    
    You asked....and I answered.  More power to those who love it on either
    side of the pond, in either of its incarnations, but it's just not the
    sport for me....
    
    -Jody

    Yes,i agree that there are very large amounts involved in football -
    but i don`t really mind this. As far as i`m concerned,a player may as
    well get as much money as possible. 
    
    Though this doesn`t always have to be the case - a club may pay
    millions for a player and he may not fit in to the particular style of
    play. I think there should be more emphasis on clubs looking at non-
    league sides or lower divisions.(For example,Notts County).
    
    As for violence - i must admit i`m in 2 minds. For one thing,the 
    problem is greatly exaggerated. Out of the millions of people who
    watch football the percentage of arrests is tiny - about 0.8% or so.
    (Mainly for parking offences).
    
    Also,it is mainly organised between the "firms" of each club.
    Ie,Chelsea Headhunters against the Leeds Mob fighting at a certain
    place at a certain time. If this is what makes them happy - then fair
    enough. Each to their own.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    
    
    

    Well, this is a subject which i stumble over everwhere I go.
    Guys are always talking about football & players, I haven't the
    faintest idea what they are talking about and feel completly
    left out.  Sitting at a bar, killing time on a business trip,
    i don't know enough about sports to make any smalltalk whatever.
    
    Actually, I LIKE football.  I like to PLAY it, and any other sport
    that involves running around a lot and trying to be coordinated.
    The fact i'm no good at it makes no difference whatever.  It's fun.
    It is hellisly boring to watch, however, except for my own kids
    playing soccer.  My observations about football and fans i know
    well;
    	Watching pro ball involves a lot of drinking, usually the cheap
    	way, at home, or in a bar that provides snacks.  This probably
    	prevents the fans from the kind of physical activity that would
    	doubtless get them injured, as many are out of shape.
    
    	Pro ball involves a lot of gambling.  In Mass. alone, i think
    	it is a $2B/year business.  If it were physically impossible
    	to gamble, i'm sure many fans wouldn't watch.  That being said,
    	here is a political solicitation.  Let's legalize sports gamb-
    	ling, have it run by bookshops at state colleges staffed by
    	business majors, with the proceeds going to education funds.
    
    	Frankly i would like to see ALL pro sports terminated, and the
    	air time spent on amateur sports.  Pick-p games and school games.
    	Sports are for fun and for kids.  Grown men should not have
    	to get paid to play ball.  The salaries are obscene, and the
    	teams are riddled with drugs and gamblers.
    
    	Just my humle opinion.   Anyone wanna play tackle football???...mwr
    

    ...is one game I have steadfastly refused to learn the rules of.
    
    
    b-o-r-i-n-g

        I like to watch American football.
        
        Dan

    Re: New England Patriots 1-15 season
    
    Wasn't the last game they won the one preceding the Lisa Olson
    incident?

    
    Australian football is much more interesting than American football,
    which is too clean and too mambypamby.  These guys are supposed to 
    be "tough"?  All their grunting and sweating and taped hands would 
    support their belief that they are so.  With all those protectors 
    and padding and steel helmets and tinted eye shields and indoor 
    stadiums and astroturf, I cannot take them seriously.
    
    Rugby, now *there's* a sport.  And soccer is good too.  At least
    there's action longer than one minute, which seems to be how long
    American football players can move before a timeout is in effect.
    
    I think American football players are merely overpaid pantywaists.
    
    Carla
    

    re .8 Yes, that's true. They are being punished by the Goddess for what
    they did and the disgusting outcome of it. I won't carry this any
    further. I'm still not watching football and will never watch the
    Patriots again. Other notes discuss this issue and I don't want to
    rehash it. I just wanted to answer you and the subject sets off my hot
    button.
    
    Phil

    re.10
    Hear, hear!
    
    Charles

    I happen to love sports, almost all sports.
    
    *Real* football - known around here as soccer - is probably my
    favorite.  But it's hard to see games in this country, and my son's
    team is now "gone", as all the kids have played their last game
    for the high school team.  (Sniff - 12 years of 10 months/year of
    playing, now over.  Tuff to take, as the parents were as much a
    part of the team as the kids.)  Fortunately, the final game was
    a win - in the state championships.
    
    American-rules football.  Gotta confess I enjoy it.  Sundays in
    the fall find me watching the game.  And knitting, or doing
    cross-stitch or needlepoint, for the 2/3 of the time when there
    isn't action on the field. :-)
    
    Never saw Aussie-rules, but I have a feeling I'd really like it.
    
    And rugby, ahhh, rugby.  Another game hard to get to in the States,
    but I really enjoy the few games I get to see.
    
    Alison

I may be a minority here but I absolutely love football. Even more now that 
the NY Giants are going to the Superbowl. :-) :-) :-)!!! I like basketball 
even more. 

Jenna

    
    Soccer:  Love it, love it, love it!! I play for two local sides and
    watch National soccer with great interest. I'm not the best player in
    the world, but if you really put the commitment in, you don't have to
    be.
    
    U.S Footy: Ahh, take it or leave it. The semi-finals(??) this weekend
    we're good, but as a rule it can be a pain in the arse.
    
    Rugby: See above. Five nations & Brit v Auss games are O.K.
    
    Aussie Rules: Pretty kosher considering it's played by Aussies. (spit!)
    
    Tony

  Football (American) is a good game to watch, except for the fact that
  a career-ending injury can happen at any time.  The human knee is just
  not designed for this game, especially if it is played on plastic turf.

  Soccer could be a great game.  Where else can you see normal-sized
  human beings playing at the very highest level of a sport (major league
  shortstops and a very few NBA guards, I guess)?

  However, what sort of a game can soccer be if you can hear a sportscaster
  saying things like, "<mumble> has an insurmountable 1-0 lead."  Huh?
  And this business of penalty kicks (is that the term?) to decide a tie...
  Picture this bizarre concept adapted for basketball.  If the game is
  tied at the end of regulation time, the teams would indulge in a slam-dunk
  contest...

  JP

>>  However, what sort of a game can soccer be if you can hear a sportscaster
>>  saying things like, "<mumble> has an insurmountable 1-0 lead."  Huh?
    
    There's somebody who's obviously heard John Motson comentate.
    
    There's no doubt that football is the best game in the world (ie not
    American football which is just a derivation of rugby, except they wear
    loads of padding and helmets).
    
    And hands up who's looking forward to the England fans arriving in the
    States in 1994?
    
    Ken

  Re: .17

  I _would_ like to see British soccer fans use the pads and protective 
  gear used by American football players.  Attending a soccer game would
  be so much safer...

  JP

    ENGLAND BOYS WE ARE HERE! 
    
    Come 1994 i`ll be proudly wearing the England colours with the lads in
    America. Union Jack flag draped over me shoulders.
    
    Me and Rod the Mod are going Ken,if you want to join us.
    
    (Rod is a WOKING boy now - woooarrgh!).
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    I'll be there mate.
    I'm also going to the Euro Champs next year in France.
    
    Paul Scarrott.

	Talking about football and America,


	I went to see Washington play a "rest-of-the-world" game, in DC.
	I went with an Irish guy(Tim) who was also contracting, and an American 
	(Paul).

	Well, the rest-of-the-world were mainly from the UK, and were playing 
	in a white strip.

	It was quite funny to see those boards at the end, with hands clapping
	- just so everyone understood it was a good move!.


	Well, the rest-of-the-world scored a goal.


	I was sat beteen Tim and Paul, so I took an arm of each, and started to
	sing..........."C'mon-you-whii-iites, C'mon-you-whii-iites".


	It then became obvious, that most of the peple in the statium, who were 
	in hearing range, thought we were cheering for the rest-of-the-world 
	team - because of their skin colour................	

	This was pointed out to me by Paul.........ho-hum methinks, this could
	be fun here if this game takes off!


	We escaped at the end with just a few sideways looks.


	Someone aught to write "rules of support" for those who don't often
	encounter fans.


	Just think of how I felt when I first saw loads of people dressed as 
	hogs and smurfs, walking around georgetown!


	Heather

    Er,i could put a few songs here which would really offend.
    
    But i think i`d better not.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

American football - boring - I worked (at different times) for the team 
orthopedic surgen for Notre Dame and later for the Broncos. Those guys trash
their bodies in big way. I bet most of them are semi-cripples by late middle-age.
I remember we used to aspirate the knees and elbows of some of the ND players
after every game. Yuck!

Soccer is great - I played on my first team at age 33. What fun!

Austrailian football - check out those shorts - nuff said. ;*} liesl

I'm with Jenna (.14) -- I love US football.  I'm a big fan of
defense and thought the 7-3 NY Giants-SF/49ers game earlier this season
was the best game of the season.  And I once got kicked out of a church 
pick-up game for playing too rough. 

But I love college basketball even more. Every year when March rolls 
around, you'll find me glued to the screen watching every game of the 
early rounds of the NCAA tournament . . . My favorite play is the stall. 
I hate the 45 second clock. And I don't like NBA basketball.  Make 'em 
WORK for the score, I say.   

Baseball is in its own way better.  I love the slower, deliberate pace, 
the neverending strategy, the way you're practically never out of it until
your very last at bat.  I will refrain from illustrating that point with
an incident from the Red Sox/Mets recent past. 

--bonnie

    Re:23 Is there any difference between football players trashing their
    bodies for a sport and models starving themselves?

    Or is there a difference between players and women having plastic
    surgery to make themselves "bigger"?

    re .25, I don't think many models starve themselves.  I don't think
    starving people tend to have bodies that look as good as the bodies of
    most professional models.  I think it's a combination of eating healthy
    food, exercise and luck.
    
    Lorna
    

I think it's a valid question to compare what football players and models do to
earn their daily bread. I've certainly heard of semi-horror stories of what they
both do to remain marketable. A small number of each make *huge* amounts of
money while the rest sell out their future health (and some might say their 
souls) aspiring to the big time and never making it. Both are sacrificing 
themselves on the alter of commercialism, but is it sexist or just the way our
culture is? liesl

Has anyone else noticed the amazing number of quotes from soldiers and
generals in the war that have been using football analogies and
metaphors?

I guess that's one of the reasons I like non-competitive sports and
games.

john

    ...pardon the sports metaphor for war but the name similarity has been
    a mild amusement amongst the anxiety and horror.
    
    So, back to the notion of the Patriots having a losing season...
    
    ... if you mean the BOSTON Patriots, you were right...  ("And they
    DESERVED it, having never given Doug Flutie a fighting chance!!!" quoth
    the guy who lives in Flutie's home town of Natick MA:-)
    
    ... but if you mean the AMERICAN Patriots of the missile variety, they
    have proven to be real winners.  Not perfect, but winners
    nevertheless...  They've saved lives and cost few to none.  A wonderful
    defensive weapon...
    
    quoth the guy who has several buddies at RAYTHEON who are feeling
    pretty good about themselves and their company these daze...

re: .25:
    Re:23 Is there any difference between football players trashing their
    bodies for a sport and models starving themselves?

It should be pointed out that elite women athletes (at the Olympic
level) were also using steroids.  One of my friends -- who did not
use drugs -- just missed the 1988 Olympic team and was convinced
that the women who were selected in her sport were on drugs for
the trials, but "cleaned up" for the actual events.

A recent NPR report on steroids interviewed a woman cyclist who was
quite matter-of-fact about her drug use, saying she did what she
had to do.

Martin.

>It should be pointed out that elite women athletes (at the Olympic
>level) were also using steroids.  One of my friends -- who did not

    	It's not just at the Olympic level...I know of a local woman
    who is a bodybuilder and uses steroids.  I'm not sure if she's
    even competing anymore.

    	Oh, I guess while I'm here, I should state that I'm among
    those few women who enjoy watching football.

    	amy

re:  people who think they are the only women in the conference who
     like football.

your not  :-)

This actually reminds me of a story.  One Mother's day (another 
halmark holiday :-(  ) My brother, sister and I took my mother into
the car and started driving.  The present was a day a 
Shea stadium for a Mets game.  Anyway, her kids at school were
just so jealous.  They wished that their mother like baseball!  :-)

Amy

    
    <the peer pressure is tremendous, but...>
    
    chalk up another semi-silent female who loves the american game of
    football... enough to fly to miami on a moments notice to watch them
    beat kansas city, right barb? <ooop's!> (-: (-;
    
    ~r

	I like football, however American football sends me to sleep, they're 
	stopped chatting longer than they're actually playing.

	Heather

    re .34 It's even worse when John Madden is doing the 'color
    commentary'. 
    
    I'll take hockey if there's a choice.

    
    I don't mind American Football.
    
    However, I HATE, LOATHE AND DETEST BRITISH "SOCCER"/FOOTBALL.
    
    I really do.
    Really.
    
    

    I hate American football and have no interest in soccer.
    
    I, also, hate the way men look in American football uniforms.
    So ugly.  
    
    Lorna
    

    there is something in organized American sport that I hate far more
    than football.
    
    Ever listen to baseball commentators?  They are the WORST!  STUPIDEST!
    It's not just the jargon, it's the content (when there is any).

    > Baseball is *far* more enjoyable at the park than on TV.
    
    I agree!  I went to a Red Sox game, sat in the bleachers and had the 
    time of my life.  I didn't actually watch the game.  But the fans were
    a real hoot!
    
    Mary

 > Baseball is *far* more enjoyable at the park than on TV.
    
Oh, definitely!

The high point of last year was going to a Red Sox game on impulse, 
with all the kids in tow, getting tickets on the last row up where the 
wind blows in through the screens, and then having Steven decide 
that the only hat he really wanted was a Toronto Blue Jays hat, and 
wondering if the very drunk very rabid hometown fans two rows below
us were going to take offense at a six-year-old rooting for the enemy.

--bonnie

    Re:41... I would take offense to that Bonnie!!!
    
    Get that kid a Red Sox hat!!!!! 

Hey, he says when he grows up he's going to be in the bullpen for the
Toronto Blue Jays . . . who am I to interfere with childhood dreams?

Besides, he might make it.  He's got a wicked curve ball . . .

--bonnie

            <<< QUARK::NOTES_DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MENNOTES.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Topics Pertaining to Men >-
================================================================================
Note 547.40                    Aversion to Sports                       40 of 65
HPSTEK::XIA "In my beginning is my end."             53 lines  12-JAN-1991 15:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Alright fellas.  I have been trying to get into sports, but am very
    discouraged to find:
    
    Football--I can never figure out who has the ball.  Usually, when a
    run starts, these guys run all over the place piling themselves on top
    of each other, but the real ball is always somewhere close to the North
    Pole.
    
    Basketball--Too fast for me.  Zing zing zing and the ball is in the
    basket.  Then someone will call a foul, but I can never figure out who
    did what even after the ref. explains.  The most entertaining moment is
    the free through after a foul.  There you know what exactly everyone
    is doing (namely nothing except one), and you can cheer or boo depending 
    on the result.
    
    Baseball--A very boring game.  The guy standing there swinging his
    stick, back and forth, back and forth.  Spit a few things.  The other 
    guy in the middle flexing his arms a few times, spit some more foul 
    things.  Then suddenly he throws the ball at the guy with the stick, and
    guess what?  The guy with the stick does nothing at all!  Then you hear
    a voice--BALL!  More waiting, more swinging, more muscle flexing more
    spit.  Then the guy throws another ball at the guy, and this time he
    swings his stick, but the ball flies right under his bat.  Another
    voice--STRIKER!  More bat swinging, more spit.  Then it is commercial
    time--Red Man the chewing tobacco for the real men.
    
    Soccor--Nobody ever scores.
    
    Boxing--The only sport in which it is a foul not hitting your
    opponent.
    
    Hockey--More fierce fighting than boxing only because it is not
    regulated and illegal.
    
    Golf--More boring than baseball.
    
    Well, I do watch tennis occassionaly when I get nothing better to do.
    On the other hand, I am a big follower of the pan ultimate spectator
    sport--The national politics, especially the presidential campaign.  No
    rules, no regulations, you can fight as low as you want--bimbo tactic,
    lip tactic and etc.  Also nobody really gets hurt because everyone
    follows the implicit rule of "The less you have to say, the more you
    say it".  Best of all, you can side with the team and at the same time
    side with his opponent because you don't really care about any of them, 
    so your team always wins.  For example, in 88, I cheered for the Duke 
    (you gotta go with the home team), but I can also admire the way Bush 
    played the game--the Willie Horten manuver and the lip manuver were real 
    classical plays.  Unfortunately, these things come only once every four
    years.  I personally think we should have an election every year.  Sort
    of like the Super Bowl.
    
    Eugene
                                                     

    
    "American" or gridiron football was of course derived from [British]
    rugby football by changing the rules (something the Americans do in
    many sports) - initially only one rule: they allowed the forward pass,
    one per play. Later they allowed substitutions, and such irritations as
    timeouts.
    
    This leads to one of my favourite football stories: a few years back
    the Dallas Cowboys did a short European tour (round US military bases)
    and as part of that they play the Barbarians at rugby football. As they
    were leaving the country a reporter interviewed the Cowboys'
    quarterback and asked him what he thought of Rugby and he said (roughly
    paraphrased) "these guys are crazy playing such a dangerous game
    without protective gear".
    
    /. Ian .\

    The origin of American football is said to be a game between two
    college teams in the late 1800s, McGill (a Canadian school) and (I
    think) Harvard.  The story as I heard it was that the two schools
    didn't realize when they scheduled the game that the teams were playing
    two different versions of "football"--McGill was playing rugby, and
    Harvard was playing soccer.  They decided to play the game anyway, with
    some sort of bizarre compromise rules.

    This was the introduction of rugby to the U.S., and it instantly caught
    on in the Northeast, but almost immediately they began tinkering with
    the rules.  Within a few years it had diverged significantly from
    rugby, having developed concepts involving possession and first downs.  
    The forward pass did not come until after American football had already
    evolved a great deal.  The game was incredibly vicious.  One lovely
    feature was what I believe was called the flying wedge, where players
    on one side linked arms to protect the ball carrier, while players on
    the other side tried to crash through this wall of linked arms.  As you
    can imagine, broken arms were the order of the day.

    The game was so vicious that, after the publication of one photograph
    of a seriously injured player, President Theodore Roosevelt threatened
    to ban it.  The rules makers responded by introducing various rules
    changes, and one of these was the forward pass.  The rest, as they say,
    was history.

    -- Mike

    20-19, Giants.  Also Bud won Budbowel III,  655455786-0.

        Yaaayyy!  The team that I was rooting for won. :-)
        
        Dan

>    Hockey--More fierce fighting than boxing only because it is not
>    regulated and illegal.
    
 
	Hockey used to be great when we could play on proper grass pitches,
	I used to love it when it was wet. Left back was the position I loved to
	play.

	It's not so good now they play on the "fast" surfaces

	However, after the UK won the olympic event, the sport has become more
	popular.

	Heather

	PS, I didn't notice any fighting.

    Left back in the changing rooms more like.
    
    I hated hockey,mainly `cos we played it on rock hard frozen grass in
    winter at school.
    
    Shame to see Oxford Utd lose 4-2 against Tottenham Hotspur,(and Woking
    go out of the F.A. Cup to Everton).
    
    I heard on the t.v. that Bush going on t.v. during the interval of
    the Superbowl was unprecedented. It must of been precedented - seeing
    that Bush is the President. Oh well.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

	Hockey - Padding????????

	don't be silly, thick socks and stout boots was all the padding we had.

	...............and short, draughty,  gym skirts.

	And - frozen grass???????well coming from Plymouth, where it rains 3 
	times as much as Manchester, and the rain comes off the sea.....

	Frozen anything doesn't exist.

	What does exist is wet muddy slimy grassy pitches, on slopes.

	Wonderful.


	Watch out for your ankles!

	H

    Joe Strummer has defected to THEALE.
    
    Breath of a thousand camels. *spit*
    
    Tony `Proud to be SUBURB' Absolom.

>    Joe Strummer has defected to THEALE.
    
 
	It's catching...........................


	I've never heard it called field-hockey, maybe 'cause it's played 
	indoors too......I've only heard of hockey, or ice-hockey.

	The only olympic event is the mens hockey, I believe it used to be
	played about 50-50 here, but since our win in the olympic event in mens
	hockey, it's really taken off for them.

	I've seen a couple if ice-hockey games here (Slough), and I must say, 
	it looks a lot more gentle than "standard" hockey.

	Mind-you, it's not so painful if you fall on your bum!

	Heather

	Opps, yup, this is a better node............

    What do you call 32 [ice] hockey players?
    
    A full set of teeth.
    

ew: .54

> not field hockey, which latter game, more gentle in its
> play, is reserved, in true sexist fashion, for women (mostly schoolgirls). 

Field hockey, gentle????

It's too rough for me!  And since I gave it up, I keep a careful eye on
any businesswoman who says she played field hockey in school.  They are
*tough*.  And frequently ruthless. 

True, it doesn't involve any actual punch-throwing fights.  Why punch
somebody when you can kill them legally?

--bonnie

    Excuse me, but field hockey is an olympic sport for MEN, and was,
    long before it was an olympic sport for women.
    
    Pakistan and India dominate the men's competition.
    
    --DE
    

>It's too rough for me!  And since I gave it up, I keep a careful eye on
>any businesswoman who says she played field hockey in school.  They are
>*tough*.  And frequently ruthless. 

	Ah well, I continued to play it after I left school, for the county 
	team, I love it. 

	But tough, nah, I'm a little pussycat!

	Heather.

>    Excuse me, but field hockey is an olympic sport for MEN, and was,
>    long before it was an olympic sport for women.
>    
>    Pakistan and India dominate the men's competition.
    
 
	Now I protest!


	The UK won the gold medal at mens hockey in the last Olympics.


	Heather

For an image of *ice* hockey, watch "The Running Man" - especially the
characterisation of Prefoessor Zero.

This of course is another example of the USA changing the rules and definition 
of a sport to suit their TV networks...

/. Ian .\
(who was always too scared to play hockey and prefered gentle games like rugby)

    Re.64
    
    < Yeah? Well it was a loooong time coming! ;-) >-
    
    Unlike yourself I fancy.

		:-)

    I suppose I should also mention, to be fair, that the USA women's
    field hockey team has yet to beat the English women. 
    
    I one took my team to a summer training camp. All the instructors
    were from England, and shouted stuff like "Nip 'round the corner, now!"
    and "Well tried!"