Conference turris::womannotes-v3

        re .1	577.26
        re .2	577.31
	re .3	578.32
	re .4	578.0
        
	I'm a man and I didn't think any of those notes presented
        me as bad.
        
        Dan

    RE: .0  (Mike)
    
                    I *see* what you are talking about....but....couldn't
    we as "real men" set an example by letting the opposite gender vent
    some of their frustrations?  After all this is Womennotes.  What is 
    *SO* wrong with someone thinking the opposite gender is [all] bad?
    Who does it hurt?  You?  *IMHO* there has been some very childish
    nit-picking during these last two to three months.....on both sides!
    
                    You can bring up all the legal "stuff" you want to and
    even say that it might hurt your career should there be "one of those 
    man hating women" as your boss.  Fortunatly real life tells us a much
    different story.  *MEN* are the ones who historically been the ones to
    put women down.  Yes, I agree, hopefully thats changing and I also
    agree that I, as a man, shouldn't "pay" for what some other man might
    or might not have done.  
    
                    I guess the moral of this reply is "don't allow
    yourself to get caught with tunnel vision".
    
    
    ALL OF THIS IS *IMHO*......of course!
    
    Dave Dawson
    

        Reply .6 was written off a slightly different base note. 
        But nevertheless, when you read 577.26, 577.31 and
        577.32, they are clearly aimed at the medical
        establishment (and for the third one, also the
        establishment in general), and none of the three even
        contains the word "men". (The original 578.0 mentioned by
        the original 578.4 only mentioned one man (not me).)
        
        Dan

    Mike,
    
    'sounds to me, as a person that you really want to seriously
    censor women's voices and not allow them to talk about their
    personal pain.
    
    The notes you object to are so close to what is real about being
    a woman in today's society that I can't help but think that you
    have no idea of what is really true for us. To me, you sound
    like you'd have objected to blacks complaining about segregated
    drinking fountains as being hurtful to whites.
    
    Mike, we women are hurt by men daily in the little ways that
    are mentioned here. does denying us the right to talk about those
    ways make things better or only absolve your conscience because
    you don't have to deal with these issues if you don't read about
    them?
    
    Bonnie

    	Almost any social or political commentary that women make can be
    	regarded as anti-male.  The vast majority of high-level political
    	positions in our country are held by males, so even criticism of
    	the government could be viewed as anti-male.

    	As much as free speech is valued in this country, it sometimes 
    	seems as though women's free speech is still viewed as expendable 
    	(in the interest of maintaining the illusion that women have a
    	greater responsibility towards the comfort, convenience and warm
    	fuzzy feelings of others.)

    	Seems to me that women are going to have to wage a specific movement
    	for it if we *ever* hope to enjoy the right to free speech.

    
    -mike z
    
    To me those notes do not present a negative image of men.
    
    They reflect real frustration with a society that still doesn't
    understand how it mistreats women.
    
    Rich...

    What everyone previously has said.
    
    I really *really* don't see how you managed to interpret those notes
    from 577 as saying "[all] men are bad".
    
    Yes, I agree that there *have* been notes peppered throughout =wn=
    (all three editions) that have essentially said "[all] men are bad",
    but I don't, except in a few specific cases, think this is anything
    more than frustration-venting, and I don't take it personally. One
    of the more extreme examples, perhaps, was Nancy Bittle's comment
    that "all men are potential rapists", which not only was I not
    offended by, but I *agreed* with.
    
    --- jerry

    Those notes don't seem to imply "all men are bad"... they just convey
    bitterness.
    
    
    
    				Jamie.

I, too find nothing offensive to me personally, nor do I feel they show men
as "bad".  It is quite clear to me, as a male, that the male of the species has
for years, attempted to control and stifle women.  And it is through this forum
that I as a male have had my eyes opened to that fact.  I find the the bickering
over who said what to who when and how and the claims of discrimination against
men in this conference trivial at best in view of the major problem of abuse of
women (physical, verbal and psyhcological) perpetrated by men.  No not ALL men,
but members of the male species.




Jim

    Maybe we should readopt the phrase that was used fairly commonly (NOT
    frequently, but commonly to mean what it seems to most to mean):
    
    "not all men but always men".
    
    that about sums it up sometimes.
    
    And Mike Z., I encourage you to open-mindedly read Ann Schaef's
    "Women's Reality".  And really READ it.  Hear the music behind the
    words.  Realize that men's and women's realities differ, because men
    don't acknowledge other realities, and women must - it's a whole
    different ballgame.  I'd gladly lend you my copy.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    May I suggest to you, Mike, that your sexism is showing; why do you
    feel that my being bitter towards the 'medical/research establishment'
    means I'm bitter towards men? FWIW, *all* my doctors happen to be
    female; proving that there are a few medical people out there who are
    not male. ANd my choice of going to female doctors, is my own personal
    choice.
    Maia
    

Mike,

As a "relative newcomer" to this conference, I finally got a chance to look over
the topics.  I find most of your choices extremely interesting...

	74.  Misogyny
	97.  Domestic Violence
       166.  are women psychologically weaker than men?
       324.  Why I Hate Men

And, of course, the current: notes that covey "[all] men are bad"

Three thoughts have occurred to me about these conferences (yes, I have been
reading in all of them):

	1.  You are simply trying to get dialouge moving - in a kind of devil's
	    advocate fashion since some of your base notes are blank.

	2.  You are providing a space for catharthis, regardless of how any
	    particular topic/opening statement may make you appear.

	3.  This is mainly for your own catharsis?

Also, the question begs, are you angry about something and you just won't come
right out and tell us?

Maybe this is all off base?  As I said, just a newcomer's oberservations.

Barb
	    

    
    I'm afraid that I'm going to both disagree and agree.
    I agree with Mike.  I think those notes indicated some anger 
    towards men.  Even 577.26 mentions how the medical establishment
    is paraphrased, against women.  It said something about doing that
    " to us(women)"  To me, that indicates that women are the victims so
    I can see where it is logical to assume that the perpetrators of
    this are men.  (After all, women wouldn't harm or degrade women, 
    right?!  -ugh, I sense another note in this subject)
    
    I don't however, feel that there is anything wrong with venting 
    that anger.  It's true.  For years the medial/psycological
    establishment has come out with study after study dedicated to men.
    Men have heart problems.  Men can benefit from asprin.  Then they
    proclaim that everyone can benefit from asprin and that men have
    heart problems because they work!  (What do the women do?  Sit
    on their buts all day!?)  Finally they do a study on women; find
    heart problems and claim that these problems have risen because
    women are now working!
    
    And in all honesty, can you honestly not question why of all the
    birth control methods out there, only two method apply to men?  (Condoms
    and abstinence, and men often refuse both of these)  I read a while back 
    in Science News that they'd
    actually been able to implant an ape fetus in a male ape's outside
    stomach lining and the fetus was carried to term.  Then they performed
    an operation similar to a Caesarean and it was born!  How come that's
    not on the news?  Hint:  perhaps males have alot of control of the news,
    in general, and they don't want their wives/child-bearers to be
    informed that they, men,  have that same reproductive ability which has kept
    women enslaved since time began.
    
    	Now, I think that this note can probably be construed as
    male-bashing.  It's not.  I don't think that all men are bad.  I just
    thing that society is different for them.  I agree with Jody's quote:
    "It't not all men but it's always men."
    
    Rachael
    
    

    re .-2 (if I may)
    
    1)Allies can engage in much less 'formal' conversations than adversaries
    can. Allies have shared experiences, shared values, even shared
    definitions etc.
    
    2)"Prove it" is a common 'ploy' when there is disagreement.
    
    3)I know that over time my participation in this conference became more
    and more formal -and adversarial, more distant, more intellectual. I
    attribute this to the reaction of discovering that some people were
    willing to insult me too (even thought I considered -and still do-
    myself a 'good-guy'. (and indeed, on several occassions I have returned
    those insults -perhaps with interest)
    
    4) I have a hunch that Mike may be more 'formal' -intellectually
    restrained- sort of naturally than I am.
    
    5)I also think that many of us men -more so than women- are more
    reluctant to involve ourselves with affect of any kind -other perhaps
    than anger- than most women are. And that this reluctance stems from a
    'justifiable' aversion to 'getting hurt'
    
    6) I have a much stronger hunch that EDP is this kind of person
    
    7) I have the distinct impression that R_Brown's personna changed
    dramatically, as a reaction -in my opinion- to what he perceived as
    hostility.
    
    
    				herb

    re .5
    
    aren't you sweet!
    

    There is a difference between showing anger toward men and saying
    "all men are bad".
    
    Believing that something says "all men are bad" is a perception only. 
    
    

Hmmm, it seems to me (in the spirit of "I" words, and validating FEELINGS) that
Mike has said that HE FEELS like those notes attack all men. They make him feel
like he is being accused of those things. I can empathize, I feel that way too,
even though I *know* that's not really what they mean. That doesn't help the
way they make me feel.

Many of you have said that that's not what YOU feel when you read the notes, and
that that's not what you think the notes mean. That's fine, but it doesn't
change (and doesn't have to change) the way Mike feels. I'm sorry he feels
that way, and I feel angry myself too (just a little and not for very long) but
I also feel the anger that prompted the remarks, and I get angry along with
my friends about the whole f***ed up situation too, and it makes me want to
scream along with them.

So I don't think anything needs to be done, Mike's feelings are valid, but I
don't think that means we should change the way we do things. Sorry you got
splashed Mike, but doesn't it just piss you off the way that there are SO FEW
forms of birth control available, and that all of them are either unsafe, messy,
inconvenient, or unreliable? Doesn't piss you off that the only alternatives
that we men have are Condoms, Abstinence, Vasectomy, or depending on our
partner? I know it makes me furious every time I think of it. Doesn't it make
you want to grab whoever's responsible by the neck and shake them?!

Unfortunately for *me* I don't think there's a simple "whoever" to *be*
responsible for this absurd situation, and I believe that there are lots of
people working to find an answer. That keeps me from rioting in the street.

	-- Charles

    well said, Charles
    
    
    
    thankyou

    
    perhaps the topic should be changed (again?) to 'notes that
    make me feel like the writer thinks that [all] men are bad'.
    
    i think ann broomhead is wonderful
    
    

    	Mike Z., your feelings are valid for you - if someone says "Hi!!"
    	and you feel that the person thinks all men are bad (or made of
    	green cheese,) it's your feeling and you are entitled to it.
    
    	The title of this topic is a misnomer, however - this topic is
    	about your feelings (and how so many things give you perceptions
    	that go well beyond what others are saying outright or implying
    	in any way.)
    
    	Please rename the topic to something that indicates that the
    	discussion is geared towards the feelings you get when you see
    	so many different kinds of notes.
    
    	Then, perhaps, we can help you with this.

    	It seems that the only way we can ever avoid possibly making
    	someone "feel" that we think men=bad is to refrain from ever
    	discussing anything that bothers us about societal or social
    	conditions outside ourselves (thus, turning any anger and/or
    	frustration we feel inwards.)

    	It's something women have been encouraged to do for thousands
    	of years - and it's one of the reasons why women suffer from
    	clinical depression twice as often as men, per a recent news
    	release from a national organization of psychiatry.  [Per my
    	other note on this, their findings indicate that the higher
    	incidence of clinical depression among women is not caused by
    	a biological link to the sex of the patients.]

    	So, we have a choice.  We can spend our lives never saying much
    	of anything (making it impossible for anyone to interpret our
    	words in a negative way towards men,) or we can make social changes
    	that make women's freedom of expression enough of a norm to keep
    	from shocking and upsetting the rest of the world when they try
    	to **imagine** what inner thoughts could have given us the impetus
    	to speak up.

    
    	In case I left any doubt as to my choice (per the last paragraph
    	or so of my note...)  ;^)
    
    	We need a free speech movement for women.  Obviously, we have it
    	technically, but we are light years from this freedom being
    	acceptable or tolerated for women in our culture.
    
    	It's long past due.
    

    "Ms." reported a survey among college-educated men.  They were asked
    if they would rape a woman if they thought they could get away with
    it.  51% answered "yes".  This is *not* the level of potential
    felons I want to live and work among.
    
    Yet I am sure these same people would indignantly refuse to steal
    unless they were starving, and would adamantly refuse to murder, or
    commit arson, or con people out of their life savings, etc., under
    any circumstances.
    
    						Ann B.

    re:.31
    
    Now *that* is *u**ing scary...
    
    --- jerry

    Well, Mike, first of all I feel no compulsion at all to convince you
    of how I feel towards men; I don't care what  you think of me and
    my so called biases.  And I have no compulsion whatsoever to find out
    about you--whether or not you are antifemale or antibegonia, who cares?
    
    I do resent you making uneducated guesses about me,however, simply
    because I mentioned the fact that women are being once again asked
    to rejoice and be grateful because an implant has been invented for
    them.  And I won't go into the gory details here again.  It's not
    worth it.
    
    Maia
    

re: .31:
    "Ms." reported a survey among college-educated men.

While I don't dispute what Ms. wrote, I would respectfully point out
that surveys are funny things, and it is very easy to load the data
in one way or another (by asking the "right" question or by asking
the "right" audience).

Before I believed Ms. data, I'd want a competent statistician (such
as occasional Womannotes contributor Penney Greene) to evaluate the
evaluation.

Martin.

    first, its important for me say that i don't believe Ann would invent
    something like that. Secondly, no matter what the actual percentage the
    idea is horrifying.
    
    Third-and least important-, I sure would like to know how the test
    sample was selected. 
    (e.g. I doubt very much that the female population of =wn= is
    representative of the general population wrt -say- castrating all men.)

re: .35:
>    (e.g. I doubt very much that the female population of =wn= is
>    representative of the general population wrt -say- castrating all men.)

In which direction?

Martin.

    horizontally
    

    re .35, do you really think that there are any regular contributors to
    womannotes who would want all men to be castrated?
    
    I don't.  It might be said on a one time basis in either anger or jest,
    but I don't think anyone would really mean it.  
    
    Or where you kidding in .35?
    
    Lorna
    

    <re .35, do you really think that there are any regular contributors to
    <womannotes who would want all men to be castrated?
    yes
    
    <Or where you kidding in .35?
    no
    
    Would they actually carry it out?
    not in my opinion    

    The following are my personal feelings, beliefs, and how I live my
    life.  They are not my feelings regarding men I know personally.
    
    1.  I am a small woman, therefore MOST men are larger, stronger than I. 
    Until I know a man personally, I give a wide berth to men.  Most of the
    men I know are from the work environment who have become personal
    friends.  Then I feel that I can trust them.  Here's an exception to
    that though.  In August I rented a room to a co-worker of my lover. 
    Kim, the renter, had made friends with a young man who was helping her
    out of a bad situation, then started making demands on her even after
    whe had told him that she appreciated his friendship but was going to
    see other people.  Kim was very upfront about this from the beginning
    and never changed her attitude or message to him.  He seemed like a
    nice guy, just a little obsessive about Kim.  Then he stepped up his
    demands that she only date him etc. and Kim told him that the
    relationship/friendship was over.  We started to infrequently receive
    hangup phone calls, which lasted until Kim moved out in October
    (renting was a temporary solution to her problem).  Steve then only had
    Kim's two work numbers by which to reach her.  Then hangup phone calls
    started at both places of Kim's employment.  And I mean the calls were
    starting at 9 am and continuing until closing, as many as 3 calls
    within 5 minutes.  AFter calling the phone company and listing the
    times the calls were coming in, they pinpointed where the calls were
    coming from.  They are coming from Steve.  This guy is dangerous, I
    feel fear because he know we know Kim and at this point I don't trust
    him at all.  These phone calls have been happening for close to 2
    months now, all day every day.  This is someone who was in my house and
    seemed harmless.  I don't think he's harmless now.
    
    2.  The MS magazine issue (#2) is very enlightening reading because the
    whole issue is devoted to violence that women have to face every day
    all over the world.  I hope that men read the articles with an open
    mind, to try to put themselves in women's places and try to feel how a
    woman might feel on this planet.  I'm keeping the issue because the
    article about on-campus harassment and violence to women will probably
    still be relevent when my daughter goes to college in 5 years.  It will
    awaken her (hopefully) and she will be prepared to deal with what she
    finds.
    
    3.  I cross streets to avoid strange men, because I don't know from
    looking which men are non-violent and which men are violent.  I don't
    feel the same way about women, I don't cross the street to avoid women. 
    Woman-to-woman violence just isn't that large a problem, man-to-women
    violence is a large problem, it's in every edition of the newspaper
    that I read (The Washington Post).  The REALITY is that I don't trust
    men, until I know them, and looking at #1 above, how do you really know
    someone?
    
    Women have to modify their behavior to survive in this society, ie not
    being out after dark alone, having private investigators check out
    potential dates to see if they are telling the truth about themselves,
    not going to certain areas or events if physical conditions aren't safe
    for them, and lots of other modifications that men don't have to do.
    
    Thanks for an interesting discussion, all.
    
    sue

    
    RE: .39  Herb
    
    >> re .35, do you really think that there are any regular contributors to
    >> womannotes who would want all men to be castrated?
    
    > yes
    
    What a hideous thing to suggest, Herb.
    
    What an awful thing this says about the way your perceptions work.
    

    I changed the all to MOST
    
    I think it says a lot about me (as you suggest)
    I think it also says alot about the personalities that are projected by
    some of the correspondence(not dents) in this conference

    re .31
    
    Just chatted with a friend of mine who recently attended a workshop
    conducted by Ellen Bass.
    He remembers her as ascribing this 51% to college males (i.e. 18-22 yrs
    old)
    

    .40
    
    Thank you for your note.  I have always felt that I was not afraid of
    men; I took pride in being able to drive through Boston alone at
    night; walk downtown, taking shortcuts, anytime I felt like it.
    
    Then this year, I realized something.  I started walking my neighbor's
    dog, (out in the country of Worcester--not Boston), and thoroughly
    enjoying the walks UNTIL I'd see a man approaching me.  Suddenly
    I became very aware of how vulnerable I was (Muffie is a sweet
    lovable spaniel who would not protect me !).  It was the first
    time in my life I could acknowledge how vulnerable I feel when suddenly
    faced with an approaching male stranger.  On the same note, if a
    woman approaches me, I feel no fear at all.
    
    This is enlightening to me because as an adult, I have not been
    attacked by men, and yet, the fear grows, the awareness that I
    could be so easily a victim of violence grows....
    
    m.
    

    
    Ah, Herb, don't you know, it's not the penis that is the problem,
    it's what's attached to it.
    
    Carla
    

    
    	:-) :-)   [thanks for another chuckle Carla! :-)]
    

.40/.45

Looking in the back seat of the car before you get in has always been to me the
women's monument of the sickening fear attached to man-against-woman violence.

I have never met a woman who did not understand the shaking feeling that may
come over you when you all of sudden HAVE to look in the back set (even if that
woman does not get the shakes, she understands them).

About the nicest thing that ever happended to me:

   When I was "checking the back seat" once, a woman came up to me and put
   her arm around me and said "I know how you feel, it's O.K."  She talked
   with me for a few more moments, and the shakes went away.

This doesn't happen to me with any frequency, but, when it does, I feel a kind
of state of shock.

Telling All,

Barb

    Even if it were true, what would castration *accomplish*? 
    
    Sounds like some kind of Freudian Castration Fantasy!
    
    Even those who say "Castrate Rapists" are missing the weapon entirely.
    
    

    <what would castration *accomplish*?
    
    (not sure my understanding of male physiology is up to this but)...
    there have been any number of comments about testosterone
    poisoning
    
    <even those who say "Castrate Rapists" are missing the weapon entirely
    I (almost completely) agree with you, but who ever said that
    wishes/fantasies were rational?

    I have to admit that I've never met a woman who spoke wistfully /
    gleefully / longingly of castration.  Even under the most extreme
    provocation, the most they wanted was to throw something at me. 
    Usually a book or a shoe. 
    
    Men, on the other hand, seem to think about the subject fairly often. 
    
    Ray

    This topic is taking on a whole different ambiance than the basenote
    intended.  The digression is fascinating, though.  So please discuss
    fear of men, male psychology regarding females, and so forth in a new
    topic, and stick to this topics initial intent and purpose
    hereafter....
    
    Thank you
    
    -Jody
    

    lets not confuse penis envy with castration complex, eh (:-)
    
    re .45
    <AH, Herb, don't you know,it's not the penis that is the problem,
    <it's what's attached to it.
    Do you mean the testes, or the body?  (:-)
    
    Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary
    castrate:
    
    1a)to deprive of the testes:  GELD
    1b)to deprive of the ovaries: SPAY
    
    2) to render impotent or deprive of vitality esp. by psychological
    means
    
    castrato:
    
    a singer castrated before puberty to ensure the soprono or alto quality
    of his voice.
    
    (i _think_ this still was done occasionally in Italy until early in
    the 20th century

    
    	<If I suggested that some of the males who write here would love
    	<to see most women axed to death and dismembered - would it bother
    	<you?
    
    It would bother me some. It would also surprise me
    I'm surprised that you might believe that 'men' might actually care
    enuf about women to want to axe them to death.
    
    I mean why the hell would a man even _care_ what happened to a 'lowly'
    woman. That's a message I've been getting for the last year. Kind of
    like destroying a kindly lap dog. (But then, I spose the dog 'could'
    become rabid.)
    
    I thought that an important premise of this conference is that women
    have much more right to feel angry toward men than men have to be angry
    toward women. I mean I keep seeing tirade after tirade from oh 10-15
    women about 'men'. Given the regularity of those eruptions, it isn't
    particularly surprising that that venomous hostility might transform
    itself into an actual wish/fantasy to cut our balls off.
    

    do I believe that some of those 10-15 women have recurrent fantasies
    about castrating or otherwise emasculating alot/most men?
    
    your damn right I do.
    

    RE: ,54, 55
    
    Why do men care about "lowly" women? Perhaps, as with any "out" group,
    the "in" group *doesn't* care. Until the "out" group begins to make
    noise and/or get some power.
    
    Castration fantasies? Herb, I know a *LOT* of women. NONE of them. Not
    one, has any such fantasies. Unless, of course, you interperet women's
    GETTING power as men's losing power, AND you equate power with
    masculinity. 
    
    Nobody does *that* anymore, right? Equate power with masculinity?
    Right? It's 1990, right?  :-}
    
    --DE
     

    I believe most women want power _sharing_
    I believe fewer man but still a whole bunch want power sharing too.
    
    i believe _some_ women already believe they have the power. (i mean
    what is easier to manipulate than a walking erection)
    
    I don't think there are very many loonies who actualy have recurrent
    				      ^^^^^^^
    fantasies of deballing men, but I think there are some.
    
    (and i think if I phrase it just the right way, some of them may even
    acknowledge it)
    
    Now, is that paranoia or insight?
    

    
    RE: .55  Herb Nichols
    
    > do I believe that some of those 10-15 women have recurrent fantasies
    > about castrating or otherwise emasculating alot/most men?
    
    > your damn right I do.
    
    Your beliefs about the fantasies of others are based on things going
    on in your own head (not anyone else's.)
    
    It's a pretty frightening window into your dream world, I can tell you.
    

    on the other hand maybe it's neither paranoia NOR insight
    perhaps its
    
    projection or prhps
    
    reaction formation
    
    never could get those two straight. Which is it Maggie
    
    <violent fantasies are not something we have in common
    
    mmmm

    re .55, I bet the women you're thinking of spend a lot less time
    thinking about men than you imagine.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	Well, it's obvious to me that some people here lay awake nights
    	thinking of the most disgusting unprovable accusations they can
    	make to express their infinite contempt for this file and the
    	women in it.
    
    	(Hey, if one person can describe fantasies, I guess I can
    	describe how I'm convinced some people think.)
    

    
    I'm offended, too, Herb.
    
    It seems to me you are projecting your own fears surrounding lopping
    penises off onto what YOU think women's fantasies are about.
    
    I know lots and lots and lots of women.  Glass chewers, lesbians, bi
    women, heterosexual women, and separatists, and in all the fantasies
    I have heard, not once do I remember a penis being mentioned.  Yes,
    men are mentioned, but not specifically the penis.
    
    And not once, NOT ONCE, has any woman I have known or read mentioned
    violent, bloody, let's-hurt-men 'fantasies'.
    
    Methinks your penis focus is more important to you than to all these
    women you claim want to chop it off.
    
    Carla
    

Even if women do have "castration fantasies," its not clear to me that
this is important, or even interesting.

Every once in a while, I hear of some horrible crime (doesn't matter what),
and wish I could strangle the criminal.  Then, an instant later, my
rational self returns.  Does this mean I would actually strangle a
criminal if I had a chance?  Would this be counted as a 51'er% if I
were to answer this to a "Ms magazine surveys men's attitudes towards
murder?"  Is it saying anything more about me then the fact that I am not
100% perfect 100% of the time?

I don't doubt for a minute that there are women who, reading of the
Lawerence serial rapist, wish they could "solve" the problem with
a knife.  But, I don't think this would be a problem, or even worthy
of discussion, if it stays a fleeting fantasy.  It is only when such
fantasies (whether they be castration, or strangulation) become
obscessions that one should worry.

Martin.

    good night everybody.

    Pleasant dreams, Herb  >;-)

    Trial lawyers begin their training with the following principles.
    
    	1) If the law is on your side, argue the law.
    
    	2) If the facts are on your side, argue the facts.
    
    	3) If neither the law nor the facts are on your side,
    		attack the character of your opponent.
    
    An awfull lot of people in this conference practice this way of
    thinking. I think it's sad that they get away with it. It's very easy
    to spot when it happens. Nuff said.
    
    
    			wayne

    Mercy .. what a string !
    
    Though I personally don't think women lay awake at night plotting
    against testicles ... I *have* heard a number of women (usually after
    their SO screwed around on them or hacked up their VISA card ...) that
    "they'd like to cut their b*lls off".  Probably a convenient figure of
    speech, but the words to fall out of their mouth, whether they're truly
    meant or not.
    
    I think from childhood, women *learn* that a good way to get a big
    brawny man on his knees is via the testicles.   And, from a pain
    standpoint, no truer words were ever spoken !  A swift kick there isn't
    like childbirth, but it sure isn't a Sunday picnic either.
    
    Jerry .. just thinkin' out loud ...

    RE: .70 & all
    
                        Isn't it time to admit that we *all* say things
    that, if they were heard, *could* be taken out of context and make it
    look as if you feel something your don't?  That,now, Infamous statement
    about "hating all men" was just a "knee jerk" reaction to something bad
    in her life....I think we relize that much.  If you were to look back
    and be honest with yourselves, I think you could see times when you
    might have said something out of anger and frustration and maybe even
    pain, that was sexist.
    
                        I don't believe that this notes conference has made
    a deliberate effort to place either gender at a disadvantage based
    solely on their sex.  I *have* noticed a polorization between the two
    sexes lately.  I also believe there are *some* sexist policies here. 
    Is that bad?  Yeah...but if they have been approved by personel, then
    there isn't much that can be done...or *SHOULD* be done.  This company
    is a private company and should be able to run there company the way
    they see fit.  Now, I know that that last statement is going to rile
    some of you, but I have owned my own business before and If its *MY*
    money, then let me do with it as I please.  IMHO....of course!
    
    Dave

    in re .71
    thanks
    
    bj

    RE: .73  Mike Z.

    > A choice you overlooked is to just sit back and see what notes
    > get listed and ask yourself "why?"

    Wrong - I did look at the notes listed, and said to myself, "There
    is no way to predict which notes will be regarded as 'men=bad' and
    which will not, so the only way to avoid the risk would be to refrain
    from saying much of anything negative."  It's another indication that
    we're dealing with a question of free speech for women.

    > Remember - I'm not asking for corrective action or explanations.

    Not outright, no.  But when you describes notes as "conveying"
    something (and ask how we propose to "resolve" this) - what's the
    purpose of it if not to get us to make some changes?

    > No, but I think there are (at least) 3 noters here who feel
    > contempt for all males they do not personally know and trust.

    Your speculations about others inner thoughts and feelings is as
    meaningless and useless as the speculations about some of our
    fantasies.

    > If not, I'm willing to start another base note, for the purpose
    > the first was created - listing notes that convey a "men = bad"
    > message.

    This topic is not about what notes CONVEY - they are about what YOU
    READ INTO some notes.  And, as usual, the whole concept of "listing"
    is reminiscent of McCarthy era witch hunts and black lists.

    	RE: .75  Mike Z.

    	> This note is a place to list notes that convey to readers
        > that "men = bad".

    	The way you phrase it ("convey to readers") assigns blame to the
    	authors of these notes for things they didn't say.  It's another
    	way of "naming names" (in the form of public accusations about
    	things they didn't do.)

    	> If you'd like to continue to discuss tangents, then I'll contact
        > the moderators and work to start a "list only, no discussion" topic,
        > and you can continue to discuss in this one.

    	A topic with the specific intention of accusing people without
    	allowing any defense or discussion?  Why would you want such a thing?

    	>> And, as usual, the whole concept of "listing"
	>> is reminiscent of McCarthy era witch hunts and black lists.

	> Don't get hysterical, there's no witch hunt.

    	Don't lie to me.  When women are berated for things we didn't say
    	(and for feelings and fantasies we haven't experienced) - there's
    	very much a witch hunt in the worst tradition of McCarthyism.

    RE:-1
    
    <--------Now THAT is weird!

    RE: -1
              HAHAHAHAHA......someday, I gotta meet you.  

>    Woman-to-woman violence just isn't that large a problem, man-to-women
>    violence is a large problem, it's in every edition of the newspaper
>    that I read (The Washington Post).  The REALITY is that I don't trust
>    men, until I know them, and looking at #1 above, how do you really know
>    someone?
 
	The reality is that most violence is either men-men, or woman-man where
	the woman and man know each other.

	Other violence is very low. The newspapers and broadcasts like
	sensationalism, that doesn't mean to say it's a high percentage of
	violence.
   
>    Women have to modify their behavior to survive in this society, ie not
>    being out after dark alone, having private investigators check out
>    potential dates to see if they are telling the truth about themselves,
>    not going to certain areas or events if physical conditions aren't safe
>    for them, and lots of other modifications that men don't have to do.
 
	I don't believe women have to modify their behavior, any more then men
	do. There are a few places and situation that should be avoided - 
	nomatter what sex you are.

	Private investigators, crossing streets, staying in after dark.....
	...........they have no place in my life.

	Heather

    .76 
    
    yeah, and how about the phrase 'hacking up their visa cards' or some
    such, earlier in the string.
    
    Same trite drivel.
    
    

Heather,

I don't know you, and sincerely don't want to offend you, but I NEED to ask you
this question:

	Are you of this earth?

Is this empirical or have you read data somewhere?  Besides, I think you missed
the point.  As much as we may not care for violence of any kind, we do not have
anything to fear from man-to-man violence.

Truly hoping you live in a non-violent neighborhood.

Barb

    re .86, I don't understand your comment that we have nothing to fear
    from man-to-man violence.  We don't?  What about war?  What about bombs
    dropping?  What about all the women who died in wars that were started
    by men?  
    
    What about the little boy I read about who was killed by bullet fired
    by a man in the Bronx during a drug fight?
    
    Maybe I just don't know what you mean...
    
    Lorna
    

    I think a "not" got left out in .86.
    
    						Ann B.

Lorna,

Sorry - I was only thinking in the context of the few notes that discussed man-
to-woman violence, and women's fears/accommodations to fear.  I shouldn't have
tried to make you all mind-readers - which the something that prompted the title.

I am in complete agreement with you on the ill effects of man-to-man violence.
Again, I was speaking in very "tight context."

Hope this clears things up a bit.

Barb

>	Are you of this earth?

	What other earth is there to be of?

>Is this empirical or have you read data somewhere?  Besides, I think you missed
>the point.  As much as we may not care for violence of any kind, we do not have
>anything to fear from man-to-man violence.

	What I was pointing out, was that very little of the violence that 
	occurs in society is woman-man where the woman and man are unknown to
	eachother. I was trying to put some perspective into the situation.

	There was a broadcast on Radio 4 this morning which went into detail on
	violence - it was after our government voted, by a large majority, not
	to bring back the death penalty.
	It cited that 75% of all violence was between people who knew eachother,
	and much of the remainder was between youths, and group situations that
 	sparked up and became out of control.

>Truly hoping you live in a non-violent neighborhood.

	Well, I was brought up in Plymouth UK, a large Navy port, so we had more
	than our fair share, I now live in Reading UK, average amount of 
	violence for an area this densely populated, I also lived in 
	Washington DC for 18 months.

	Heather

Heather,

Please accept my apology for the tone of my note that you so graciously
answered.  I went into a sort of "past shock" after reading your intial note
which seemed so devoid of fear.  I had a college friend who simply would not 
listen about walking through Boston Common at night - she did not make it.

That certainly has nothing to do with you, and I am sorry that I "sniped" at
you.

Barb

	Thanks Barb,

	I'm sorry about your friend, 
	and you're right, I wouldn't walk across Boston Common at night.


	Heather