Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    WADR, what *is* this in reference to ?

    -1: Victor Kiam is the owner of the N.E. Patriots, an NFL team.
     He made a statement about Lisa being a "bitch" and that she didn't belong
    in the locker room.  There is more on the story in this mornings
    Herald.  Lisa was being sexually harassed by several Patriot players
    while she was trying to do her job.  
    
    An interview last night with Alice Cook of Boston's WBZ, verified
    that she also had been harassed by a member of the Patriot Football
    team.
    
    Sorry for thinking this file is only right here... (Local Boston
    area)... 
    
    Marie

    Re:Kiam did not call her a bitch.... He called her a "classic bitch"!
    she was harassed, no question about it! The team did fine one player
    and told the others to apologize.... But the team did not make the name
    of the players available to the public... I wonder what the players
    wives, mothers, and girlfriends would do once they found out what was
    said....

    REK

    I wonder what the female employees of Kiam think about all this?

    
    	Oh Victor Kiam is such a wonderful man... let's all go out and buy
    	more Lady Remington's like good little girls... :-(
    
    	There are two issues here. One - whether opposite gender reporters
    	should be allowed in locker rooms, and two - responding to the
    	sexual harassment that took place.
    
    	I can understand some athletes feeling uncomfortable with the press
    	inside their locker rooms, but since they (NFL??) ALREADY agreed to 
    	allow all genders inside the locker room, what happened should not
    	even be an issue to be discussed.  The female reporter was simply
    	doing her job as had been agreed to by all sides. Actually I lied,
    	there is only one issue here. Sexual harassment which took place.
    
    	Victor Kiam has shown some ugly sides in the past couple of
    	years... which Pat Sullivan always rushes to cover up.
    
    	-Erik
                                                         

    IT'LL BE A COLD DAY IN HELL before I buy a Lady Remington!

re Note 401.4                  
CYCLST::DEBRIAE 
    
    
>    	There are two issues here. One - whether opposite gender reporters
>   	should be allowed in locker rooms, and two - responding to the
>  	sexual harassment that took place.
    
>    	I can understand some athletes feeling uncomfortable with the press
>    	inside their locker rooms, but since they (NFL??) ALREADY agreed to 
>    	allow all genders inside the locker room, what happened should not
>    	even be an issue to be discussed.  The female reporter was simply
>    	doing her job as had been agreed to by all sides. Actually I lied,
>    	there is only one issue here. Sexual harassment which took place.

        
    No, you were right the first time. Nobody, not *one* athlete, should
    be made uncomfortable because the NFL, or any majority, decided
    that opposite-sex reporters should be allowed in the locker rooms.
    I'd call it harrassment, I'd be damned uncomfortable, and when I get 
    that way there's just no telling what I'd do to make the irritant go 
    away. (I don't ever plan to fight clean.)

    Frankly, the locker rooms should be closed to all reporters, let
    them wait til the athletes come out. (Of course, my opinion of
    sports reporters places them below barracudas on the scale.)

    You might  want to look in the Boston Globe for the last few days.
    They  broke  the story, despite it being a Herald reporter who was
    harrassed.  The  Herald  was trying to "do things quietly" or some
    such.  The  Globe  sports  section  this weekend had a rather good
    column  on  this  incident  and  a racial incident involving a top
    draft pick of the Boston Celtics (basketball team).

--David

Personally I don't think she should have been there - I know I would feel
very uncomfortable having a man in *my* locker room.

However, that doesn't justify sexually harassing her.  (What exactly does
"sexual harassment" refer to in this incident?)

WZLX's Question of the Day today was "should women reporters be allowed in
men's locker rooms"?  I don't understand why they couldn't broaden the
question to "Should reporters of one sex be allowed in locker rooms of the
opposite sex?"

D!

    I liked Dana's take on it even better:  Should reporters be allowed
    in locker rooms at all?
    
    							Ann B.

    From the front page of this morning's Globe:
    
    "The New England Patriots, under the eye of the National Football
    League headquarters, yesterday fined one of the five players who
    sexually harassed a female reporter last week in their locker room,
    calling the player's behavior "unacceptable and unwarranted."
    
    The Patriots did not release the player's name or the amount of the
    fine, but team sources said it is tight end Zeke Mowatt, a free agent
    picked up from the New York Giants during the offseason.  According to
    the sources, Mowatt, who will make $460,000 this year, will be fined
    $2000, spread out over 14 weeks."
    
    [there's more, but that was the interesting part]
    

    I WOULD NOT ALLOW A MAN IN MY LOCKER ROOM...
    that much I know, we just cannot go against nature...
    
    I just know it is not right for a woman to be in men's locker rooms or
    for men to be in women's locker rooms.  I cannot give a reason, common
    sense just tell me IT IS NOT RIGHT and... I normally follow my common
    sense (have never failed me so far...)
    
    I feel sorry for the reporter... her company should have been a little
    tactful and not send her to cover certain touchy situations... as it is
    to inverview men in shower rooms... where they expected to take showers
    fully clothed?
    I am sure that she knew that she was getting into... men's showers,
    and anyone knows what to expect seeing there... nothing but men's naked
    bodies being cleaned after heavy exercise. Now, it that the RIGHT place
    to run an interview? if it is, why not covered by another man that
    would not be subject to any form of embarrasment? Doesn't the newspaper
    have men's reporters to cover those affairs? but if a woman wants to go
    ahead and cover the subject... she has to be ready to affrent any form
    of embarrashment that might come from it.
    Of course that is my humble opinion, I think that the newspaper should
    be sensitive enough to send its reporters to the right place by its
    right people. 

    
    RE: no reporters in locker rooms
    
    	These are my feelings as well. However I am not a New England
    	Patriot and don't get a vote as to how they run their locker rooms.
    	They agreed to have opposite sex reporters... 
    
    RE: was it sexual harassment
    
    	Yes. I quickly read Lisa's account this morning and the gist of it
    	was that four men came up behind her while she was sitting down
    	talking to an athlete. They were completely naked and had their
    	privates very close to her (she was already at eye level). Amoung
    	the verbal abuse they gave her was "This (motioning a particular 
    	part of their body) is what you really want, isn't it" and dared 
    	her to touch them there. I don't know what constitutes "sexual
    	harassment" legally, but it definitely was verbal abuse which
    	included sexual overtones.
    
    	If I was unhappy with her presence in my dressing area, it would
    	hardly have been the way I would have 'displayed' my concerns...
    
    	-Erik 
                                               

    re: .10
    
    Because if someone wants to be a sportswriter, one has to get the
    good interviews, and the best interviews and insights into the
    sport and the team are generally obtained immediately after the
    game, while all the jubilation, disappointment, and excitement is
    right on the surface, before the players have had time to calm
    down and put on their public faces.  

    And if one happens to be a woman, saying one can't go into men's
    locker rooms is tantamount to saying that women can't be top
    sports reporters covering the glamor sports.  
    
    It's a moot point, anyway, because the decision has already been
    made.  The NFL rules state that all reporters are to be allowed
    equal access.  It is within a team's rights to bar ALL reporters
    from certain times, meetings, etc.  I believe there are several
    teams that do close the locker room for the first half hour after
    the game.  It's not within their rights to bar only some reporters
    (race has been an issue in other cities).  
    
    According to the rumors as reported in the Nashua _Telegraph_, the
    incident wasn't just embarrasment, it included verbal and physical
    insults while Olsen was trying to conduct an interview with
    another player (Hurst?).  She and the other player ignored it as
    best they could and went on with the interview.  Other players on
    the team apparently came to her defense, and male reporters who
    witnessed the event have used words such as "intolerable" and
    "unforgiveable" about what happened. 
    
    --bonnie

    The locker rooms are not exactly shower rooms and the fact of the
    matter is that there are live television cameras in the locker room
    so it is hardly a private place.
    
    For years the locker rooms functioned as men's reserves where
    sportswriters, players, owners, buddies (all males) hung out. Women
    were not sportswriters for two reasons: women don't understand sports
    and women can't go into men's locker rooms. This changed when point
    one was demonstrated to be wrong and a law suit allowed women sports
    writers entrance to locker rooms in the legitimate pursuit of their
    occupation.
    
    Please remember it was a writer harrassed while doing her job, it
    was NOT a writer harrassing a player.
    
    As for male sportswriters in a women's locker room.  It has not
    (to my knowledge) happened as the locker rooms are closed to the
    press and the players come out to be interviewed.  
    
    The question is of equal access in performance of a job and the
    respect necessary to do one's job without receiving harrassment. 

    
    
    Isn't it funny that these type of things seem to occur primarily
    in men's sports where the guys are outwardly physically huge?
    
    This does not occur as frequently in hockey or basketball.  
    
    Maybe these "big" guys are really insecure of their manhood??!!
    
    
    
    Actually that was the first thing that came to mind when I first
    read of this incident over the weekend.  I have been involved with
    hockey and basketball and to some extent baseball at Northeastern
    University for a couple of years as my SO is an announcer for the
    games.  I have noticed that most of the kids who play hockey and
    basketball are not out to distort their bodies through outrageous
    power lifting/building.  Of course, the skill sets of each games
    are quite different and you do not have to be huge to succeed in 
    these sports.  
    
    
    
    The thing that really bothers me about this issue is that these
    are grown men.  We are not talking about high school or college
    age kids.  These players are supposedly looked up to by the kids
    who play the sport.  What kind of message are they sending to these
    kids?  
    
    
    Victor Kiam is a wimp!!  An ignorant one at that!
    
    Michele

    Personally, I would be embarrassed by anyone associated with any
    organization that I belonged to, doing such a thing as happened here.
    That would also include the Kiam statements. I would be plenty upset if
    I got wind of it beforehand or asked to participate in it. I'd refuse
    and try to warn the victim. If these people are so selfconcious that
    they have to resort to harassing and abusing an individual for doing
    their job, then I wouldn't classify them as human beings.
    
    Question? In most companies, isn't this cause for dismissal? I think a
    slap on the wrist fine is only going to encourage this type of
    behavior. What's next? I know. Let's get the individual in a situation
    where there are no witnesses and really scare the bejeebers out of
    them.
    
    Disgusting and I'll never go another Patriots game.
    
    Phil

    re .16 Seen many _small_ pro basketball players lately ?

    
    re 17
    
    Eagles,
    
    What male stereotypes??  What I wrote was of my experience with
    what I have witnessed.    No arm-chair psychology.
    
    Sure I know that "many athletic stars are not very well rounded
    personalities".  What does that have to do with ignorance?  
    What these men did was immature.  Are you saying that because
    they do not have well rounded personalities that they are to
    be allowed to be ignorant?  Is that their excuse?
    
    I have several friends who are in to body building.  These guys
    are huge.  Personally I think they look ridiculous by distorting
    their bodies, but that is my opinion.  But one common thing I (and
    several other friends in our group both male and female) agree on
    is that these particular individuals do have problems with their
    manhood and by bulking up they are trying to reinforce (in thier
    minds) their manhood.  Look everyone has their insecurities.  
    So from my experience I have not been fortunate to find a male
    who bulks himself up who is secure with himself.  So you accuse
    me of stereotyping???
    
    
    Michele

    
    
    re 19
    
    big in this case to be bulked up.  not physical height.  

    Michelle,  I tend to agree with Eagle on this one.  Some people
    lift (and use steroids) because they think muscle is beautiful.
    And if you have ever heard Arnold Schwarznegger talk, you can see
    he is far from insecure.
    
>    So from my experience I have not been fortunate to find a male
>    who bulks himself up who is secure with himself.  So you accuse
>    me of stereotyping???
    
    stereotype - n. One considered typical of a kind and without
    individuality. v. To form a fixed, unvarying idea about.

    	Linda

    Interesting.  The conclusions here and in SPORTS are just about the
    same, although arrived at by slightly different routes.  (Maybe this
    belongs in True Confessions, but the other conference I'm active in is
    Sports.)
    
    My opinion - reporters and cameras don't belong in locker rooms. 
    Period.  The NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL need to provide alternative methods of
    encouraging/requiring access to their players for post-game interviews. 
    Almost all other sports have some mechanism to get players and press
    together which does not involve locker-room visits and interviews.  I
    don't blame the players for not wanting non-team members present - if
    it was me, I wouldn't want them there either.
    
    However, that isn't the situation today.  The comments and harassment
    in this incident go beyond what *anyone* should be expected to endure. 
    As a woman involved in the fringes of lots of sports, I've learned that
    there are times and places where you ignore sexist comments - go deaf,
    dumb and blind as it were.  Women sports reporters must have the hide
    of a rhinocerous in order to do their jobs, and have to love the work
    in a big-time way to put up with the daily pokes and jabs.  (One of my
    best friends from high school worked as a sports photographer while in
    her early 20's.  Some of her stories would curl your hair.)  So long as
    the comments are impersonal, it's possible to do that.  This incident
    wasn't impersonal.
    
    To Lisa go my best wishes for a satisfactory to-her conclusion to this
    incident.  To the players in question, a large raspberry for their
    childishness and immaturity.  To Victor Kiam, a vow renewed not to
    support the Pats and an added vow not to use his company's products. 
    For a supposedly intellgent man to react this way says a lot about
    on-going disdain for women in the 'power structure' of our society.  To
    all the players and reporters who have and are decrying the specific
    behavior in this incident, a thank you for the support.
    
    And for my own curiousity, probably never to be assuaged, a big
    question about what led up to this incident.  These things seldom
    spring forth full-blown without some lead-up.  Life is almost always
    shades of grey, and I wonder how "white" Lisa is, and how "black" the
    players are.  ("White" and "black" between used in good-guys, bad-guys
    connotations here.)  One of those little mysteries that we will
    probably never know.
    
    Alison

    
    re 22
    
    Linda,
    
    I understand that some folks think pumping up is beautiful.
    That is great if that is what they like.  Personally, it just
    does not appeal to me.  Definition is nice.  
    
    Re Arnold.  I do not know this person.  Sure I know who he is,
    but my note was written from personal experiences.  So I honestly
    could not include him in my experiences.  
    
    I am not saying that bulking oneself up is a terrible thing. If
    that is what you are into then fine by me.  The intent of my original
    note was to point out that there seems to be more of this type
    of bull present in football as opposed to other professional sports.
    Then taking it a step further by trying to point out what I see
    as differences in the physical makeup of the players.  
    
    I am sure that there are alot of professional football players who
    are "well rounded" individuals who would not have resorted to such
    an ignorant act.  What was the reason for this?  What were these
    guys really trying to do?  This can not be dismissed as a "boys
    will be boys" type of thing.  These are not boys we are talking about.
    
    IMO it was a classic power play.  These individuals were trying to
    prove "something".  There were supposedly five players involved.
    She was supposedly sitting in a chair while she was interviewing
    another player.  Now I don't know about you, but that alone, having
    five large men (at least twice the size of me each) standing within inches
    of my face would tend to intimidate me.  
    
    They were using thier bodies (rather specific parts of their bodies)
    to intimidate her IMO.  Their size (overall) is a key issue I was
    trying to point out.  If you substituted non-football players the
    effect would be different.
    
    
    Michele

    
    
    The following reply is  from a member of our community who
    wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J.
    =wn= comod
    ______________________________________________________________
    
    
	set flame/simmer/param=very_annoyed


@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

 I am quite angry right now. I have discussed this topic in other files, and
more recently at the lunchroom table. I am appalled at some of the attitudes I
have seen displayed with regard to this incident.

 This incident is about sexual harrassment. It is about a group of men who
have shown themselves to be inferior on-field performers but who consider
themselves to really be something special, having acted in a sophomoric
and intolerable manner in an effort to intimidate the ever imposing figure of a
professional female sports reporter. The actions themselves were despicable,
utterly lacking any semblance of class or maturity. What is even more
bothersome to this person is the outpouring of support in some sectors for the
perpetrators of this vile activity. It's ok to shake your weenie in a female
reporter's face; she shouldn't be there in the first place. Well, it isn't ok.
Not by a long shot.

 Since the incident occurred, Lisa Olson has done her utmost to remain
professional. God knows I would not have. My initial reaction to some knuckle
dragger wiggling his meat in my face and asking me "Is this what you want?"
would be to say "That little thing? You MUST be joking, right? Where'd you hide
the rest of it?" Obviously the man is proud of those precious few ounces of
flesh; no sense in not using it to attack his questionable masculinity. :-)
Ms. Olson's wish since the beginning has been to cover the news, not to become
the news itself. However, a Globe reporter decided to put an end to that. And I
am unsure if I should applaud him of berate him. It could go either way. In any
case, Ms. Olson only ever wanted to do her job in peace.

 The question of whether it is proper to allow opposite sex reporters into team
lockerrooms is moot, in my opinion. There is a fundamental right for fair and
equal access to the sports celebs, as a condition of equality in the pursuance
of a career. Since some reporters are allowed in the locker rooms, there may be
no exclusion on the basis of sex or race. End of story. The question of the
propriety of allowing reporters in the locker room is a more general topic and
certainly one which may need to be discussed in order to reach a resolution
which both protects the privacy of the players while maintaining equality of
access for interviews. (Personally, I never knew that football players were so
demure, but, hey... ;^)

 For those of you who are concerned about the privacy of the locker room, I
have this to say. All major sports teams have a grace period after the game
during which time NO reporters of either sex are allowed in the locker room.
The absolute minimum time is 10 minutes. Many have a half hour. All major
sports teams provide towels so their players may cover up. In fact, the Pats
provided bathrobes to the players until it was clear that no one was wearing
them. I don't really think that the privacy in changing is the major issue that
many people are making it out to be (at least to the players.) I think that's a
smokescreen to cover up just how sophomoric the actions were.

 As for the women who feel that they would not allow men into their locker
rooms; it is not a directly comparable situation. You have not set the standard
that allows women into your locker rooms to interview you.

 If nothing else, this incident served to open my eyes to the extent that men
(especially older men) remain steadfastly tied to hackneyed stereotypes. I am
appalled that such attitudes remain in the 1990's.

 Thanks for listening.

    .25
    
    Thankyou for your note.
    
    I too am appalled at how quickly this topic was derailed into
    "mens' bodies," "mens' rights."  ALso, blaming the victim (just
    *what* motivated her to be there? (her job=money=food, shelter,
    clothing), and just how "innocent" were her actions (or was she
    just a little "grey.")  C'mon.   
    
    flaming,
    Maia
    

    now i have an understanding of who the people are in this
    incident.  the greenville <s.c.> news didn't cover this story. {-:
    
    what harrassment took place?
    
     ~robin

re Note 401.28                 
    
    >As for professional football players ... why would anybody expect
    >them as a group to be any different from most males taken at random ?

    In three words - heavy steroid use.

>    re .16 Seen many _small_ pro basketball players lately ?

I've met one in the Washington branch of my running club who played varsity
basketball for U Michigan who is about 5'8" -- he's a surgeon now, though.

I was glad to find out he was a basketball player -- I was wondering
why a short, chubby, black guy was running up the side of a mountain
faster than I can run down.

Martin.

    re .25
    I offered one explanation of why these athletes acted as they did. 
    I stated that under the circumstances I might have reacted in
    an equally irrational manner. In no way do I _support_ such 
    actions. Major difference.

    Heavy steroid use has been linked to increased agression in
    young males.

   (to the anonymous reply) Amen to that!!!!  
    
    
    How about the 22 year old pitcher for the Detroit Tigers who told a 
    female reporter that ' ....the only time I talk to a woman is if
    she's under me or on top ...'????  This incident is far from being
    isolated as I had thought.  Look how many other female reporters
    have now come out of the *closet*, so to speak, to tell of their
    experiences with male football and baseball players (note that this
    type of incident is not at all common amongst hockey or basketball
    players).  It seems these women may have been wary of voicing these 
    incidences in public for fear of being singled out and further
    harrassed.  
    
    I don't believe, whatsoever, that the players did this because they
    feel women don't belong in the locker room.  No way!!  In the past
    maybe these women asked hard-nosed questions, just like any other male
    reporter, regarding the team, poor performance, lack of this and that,
    and these players don't like the fact these questions are asked by 
    a woman - not a man.  I mean, hell ... why should they take hard-core
    sports journalism from a woman??  This does piss off certain individuals 
    who have to prove what a man they are by waving their genitals in a
    woman's face.   They wanted to show who had the upper hand .... sounds all
    too familiar to me.  From first hand experience - many of them have the
    same attitude away from the locker room.  I know ....  I'll leave it at
    that.
    
    Why should this incident be singled out when you can take a look in
    HUMOR and note how callously rape is treated.  There are men who still 
    feel this is a sexually crime brought on by 'those' women (sluttish) who 
    wear *suggestive clothing*!!!!   
    
    I'd like to know how their loved ones are going to feel when this gets
    out in the open.

    
    Eagles,
    
    "bulky male body = neanderthal mentality.. right?
    
    Wrong.  That was not what was said.  The issue with the bulky male
    body was that it was used in an intimidation move.  Clearly it would
    not have been as effective if the body were a small one.  
    
    Try to imagine a bunch of jockeys doing the same thing.  It still 
    would be wrong, but it would not have been as intimidating.  They
    used their size to their advantage.  Remember, she was sitting down
    and they were standing up.  It was a power play.  They were trying
    to assert their power (or dominance) over her.  
    
    Don't know about you, but to me when a person is out to prove their
    power over you they are really covering up for an insecurity within
    themselves.  Especially in an instance of harrassment.  Afterall,
    if they were secure they would not have felt it necessary to do what
    they did.  
    
    
    Michele

    Steven, there are differences between the words 'understand', 
    'condone', 'excuse'. I try to understand. I do NOT 'excuse', 
    and I darn sure do NOT 'condone'. I am realistic enough in
    my own self-evaluation to know that I am capable of screwing
    up royally if provoked. Provocation does NOT absolve me of
    responsibility for my actions, nor justify them. It only
    *explains* them. 

    Dana

    >Why should this incident be singled out when you can take a look in
    >HUMOR and note how callously rape is treated.  There are men who still 
    >feel this is a sexually crime brought on by 'those' women (sluttish) who 
    >wear *suggestive clothing*!!!!   
    
    	This is going on in MENNOTES note 511. One male suggested this
    	incident indicates that men have sold out other men. The crown
    	jewel of his argument is how men get 'legally hassled simply
    	because some woman claims she was raped' in those 'numerous cases
    	of women who, eventually, admit they lied about the rape'.
    
    	Grrrrr!!
    

    Yes, please do also see:
    
    MENNOTES
    511 - Patriots - a male/male sellout?
    
    -Jody
    

    
    The NFL has chosen it's rules and regulations regarding reporters,
    whether they be male or female. She was in doing a job, reporting
    to fans who pay these guys salaries on what their problem seems to
    be that they can't win a game.
    
    Instead, a few no-minds decided to be macho in the locker room instead
    of performing on the field. Like these players, she is a professional
    being paid to perform a service and to do her job as professionally and
    accurately as possible.
    
    I personally think it revolting that these men can be so small minded
    and find it even worse that Victor would encourage such statements by
    opening his mouth and inserting foot.
    
    I would not want to be a woman working in his organization at this time
    if this is how he sees and treats professional women.
    
    Mary
    

    I said my piece in men notes and will again if the node comes up.
    It's true what I said - I wrote to the moderator of humor and made
    a stance that rape is nothing to joke about.  The moderator told me
    to lighten up - it's humor.  To those of us who have experienced
    first hand male agression, sexual or violent, know how it feels and
    it's NOT funny.  Angry??  I've gone beyond that.
    
    This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with who or who shouldn't be
    permitted in the locker rooms (from what I've read she was not
    in the shower area/dressing area).  This is a ridiculous show
    of male *superiority* at it's best.  It has nothing to do with 
    Lisa Olson(?) personally it has to do with the poor field peformance
    by certain players and their dislike for ANYONE to be in their locker
    rooms.  These are both in the same subject matter.  On the whole,
    players don't like reporters in the locker room asking questions 
    ESPECIALLY when they or the team is doing poorly.  They wanted to
    humilate a reporter and what better to do this to but a woman!!!!!
    We are so easily intimidated .... look at their size.  They used their
    size and the fact that they are *men*, and I use this term ever so
    lightly, to humiliate her.
    
    To those individuals who think these reporters are having a good time
    then think again.  They're not in there to gawk and slap some butt
    cheeks, these women are in there just as the men - to cover a story 
    get some good scoop.  These female reporters are damn good and cover
    the scene as well, if not better (remember, we still have to prove
    ourselves) than they're male collegues.  
    
    
    These players did this for one reason:  To humiliate and degrade
    a reporter.  What better way then to do that to a woman.  Do you 
    think they'd do something like that to a male reporter??  No way!!!
    If they did each one would be labeled gay or if they physically
    threatened a man he'd seek legal action.  Who'd believe the woman???   
    
    
    I have had enough.

    There was  an  article  in today's Globe with a wonderful quote at
    the  end.  It  seems  that Victor Kiam is upset that Remington and
    feminism  are somehow involved. (I think this was in response to a
    suggestion of a boycott of Remington over the issue.)

--David

    I didn't see Channel 4 news last night, but the radio station I listen
    to was discussing "vic's" latest statement on the incident which apparently
    was in an interview on Channel 4.  Apparently he said something to the
    effect that Lisa had gone into the shower room at the Indianapolis game
    ( a statement which he has since retracted and which apparently has
    been proven false) and he accused her of voyeurism.  They said he later
    retracted his statements and issued a "weak" apology.
     
    I also heard that another woman sports reporter has stated that she has
    also been harrassed by Patriots players -- recently -- but had not
    reported it.
    
    Personally, I applaud the Globe reporter who forced this out into the
    open.  Obviously he found the behavior every bit as reprehensible as it
    was.  I think the women reporters are probably reluctant to report
    these incidents for fear of the negative impact on their ability to do
    their jobs in the future.  By reporting it publicly, the Globe reporter
    brought the behavior out into the sunlight where it could be seen for
    what it was and he sent a message that he respected this woman as a
    colleague and would not tolerate a colleague being treated that way. 
                                                                   

    I have a Lady Remington which I, as well as a couple of friends who
    have one, am going to send to Foxboro.  Anybody know if there's a 
    better place to send these Remington's to???  I can add a little card
    with it as well - Go shave your own *armpit* - oh, I meant *you* ..!!
    
    /gail

    We went THROUGH this *years* ago. When women were breaking into the
    sports reporting biz. There was hoo-hah and umbrage and all that
    cr*p, and the rule was made that women reporters could go into locker
    rooms. Where, by the by, the gentlemen do not have to be unclothed.
    
    Now a bunch of idiotic jocks harrass a woman doing her job, and
    people are Up in Arms about *her* being in the locker room.
    
    Sheesh.
    
    

Watched Channel 4 news in Boston Monday night. 

The show opened with three or four continuous minutes
of the Boston basketball player who had been confronted
at gunpoint by the Wellesley police.  The show had Film! 
Film! Film! of the street where it happened!  An interview 
with the police chief!  An interview with the bank manager! 
An interview with a passerby!  An interview of a Wellesley
citizen who wasn't there -- honest.  Had the curb had not 
been mute, they would have interviewed that too.

Then the show moves to Lisa. One sentence. Maybe two.
No pictures. No interviews. No facts. No news. No
quote from anybody. 

This is the channel where Bob (no lobe) Lobel, sports 
reporter, spends his time slot enumerating the trivia of 
Boston sports.  Endlessly. Except for this story. 
I am still irritated!!!

Several people have said something to the effect that
"these are not men."

It's a point.  Remember, football is the sport that has the 
self-help group for players.  Its name escapes me, but the 
group exists to help pro-football players learn to read, 
to balance a checkbook, to buy their own clothes, etc. etc.

These are not men. These aren't even 3rd graders.

-----------------------------------------

For out of towners, the Wellesley story: 

The Wellesley bank had been robbed two days earlier.  A Boston Celtic
basketball player had the bad luck to park across the street from the
bank. He was seen by a teller who had been present for the robbery;
the teller thought he might be the bank robber. So the bank called the
police, and said the robber might be across the street; the police came,
pulled their guns out, surrounded the car, and made the player lay on the
pavement while they took ten minutes to figure out whether or not
he was the bank robber.

The player is now threatening to sue the Wellesly bank, Wellesly the
town, and the Wellesly police. (Why he has not threatened to sue the
witnesses, I dunno.)  This story has being covered night and day, by
radio and tv, in infinite loving detail. 

Also, the player has been giving many many many many interviews.
In constrast to those idiots in the locker room, who are trying
very earnestly to maintain a low profile. Our Heros in Hiding.

    I know this is dumb but here goes: Are the actual shower areas closed
    off? I mean are the players able to wear a robe at the time of
    interview or is it done with the water running and the soap-in-hand?
    
    The interview should be done in the locker area (as opposed to the 
    shower area I suggest the use of robes be optional.
    
    This sort of discrimination can not be tolerated.
    
    The Herald should be called on the carpet for not making a stink. If
    I should be harassed on my job I would hope my managers would see that
    justice is served. The only exception would be if Ms. Olsen requested
    privacy.
    
    Kate

    re: .46
    > group exists to help pro-football players learn to read,
    > to balance a checkbook, to buy their own clothes, etc. etc.
    >
    > These are not men.  These are not even 3rd graders.
    
    Please watch your judgements here.  Yes, they are men, and as such
    should be held accountable for their reprehensible behavior.  I can't
    balance a checkbook, either.  That doesn't make me less a woman or less
    a "grown up".  And not knowing how to read is very saddening, but does 
    not make these men less than 3rd graders.
    
    Nancy

    I'd like to set up an entourage to protest the game this Sunday in
    Foxboro .....
    
    
    Anyone care to join????
    
    
    /gail

    re .47
    
    The showers themselves are off-limits.  At one time the Patriots
    provided robes for the players, but since none of them were ever used,
    they are no longer provided.  It's my understanding that the showers
    are not in a separate room, per se.  Some of the difficulty is that the
    last few players Lisa wanted to interview had lockers physically near
    the shower area, and the players kept her waiting for significant
    periods of time (ie, many players had already *left* before she got her
    interview).  The player's reasons for not talking to her right away
    were very legitimate - in one case it was for treatment of an injury
    and in another it was a player who simply doesn't give interviews until
    he has had a chance to 'come down' from the game and get complete
    cleaned up.
    
    There was significant build-up to this event, all of which puts the
    players and team in a bad light.  It also predates Victor Kiam's
    ownership of the team.  This says to me that the problem is endemic. 
    It will probably remain endemic for a long, long time.  That doesn't
    make it "right" (it isn't), but does provide context.  Professional
    sports is one of the places where women have to deal with the
    pre-liberation mentality at its most personal.  (Consider the social
    background of most of the players.  Many of them are from the rural
    South.  Most of them are from, at best, blue-collar communities. 
    Places where the appropriate social roles for women and men are much
    more narrowly defined than among a predominantly college-educated,
    professional, urban/suburban Northeast community.)  
    
    It is my understanding that Lisa was pursuing the issue, with her 
    management and the Patriot's management, before the Globe broke the 
    story.  It isn't clear whether the Globe broke it with her permission. 
    My impression is that the response from the Pat's management wasn't
    such as to educate the players about what is considered acceptable
    behavior in their current milieu.  To me, *that* response (or lack
    thereof) is the one that should be the object of scorn.
    
    Alison  

    	Coming in this morning, I heard that Zeke Mowatt has
    	been told to report to NFL headquarters. Maybe Tagliabue
    	is gonna bust his chops; probably not.
    
    	Scott

    re: .50

    Please be careful about taking such generic swipes at the
    attitudes of entire socioeconomic classes.  While it's true that
    many blue-collar families do have traditional ideas about the
    roles women should play, it's not true that "a predominantly
    college-educated, professional, urban/suburban Northeast
    community" has a much more liberal view about women's roles. 
    Remember that survey from a couple of years ago that found
    something like three-quarters of male Dartmouth undergrads wanted
    a stay-at-home wife with no career of her own?  You can't get much
    more professional college educated Northeast than that. 
    
    I don't know whether you could statistically support a claim that
    the majority of NFL players are from blue-collar backgrounds any
    more.  That used to be the case, but the numbers have been
    changing over the last ten to fifteen years. 
    
    One hundred percent of the NFL players are college educated.  Many
    of them didn't complete a degree, and you can argue whether they
    learned anything during their college years, but every one of them
    has attended college. 
    
    I will assume that your comment about being from "at best"
    blue-collar communities, as though there was something wrong with
    having a parent who worked with his or her hands for a living, was
    simply careless wording.
    
    --bonnie
    

    re .50:
    
    Allison, what do you consider to be "background" for a "rural
    southerner"?
    
    I think that the behavior of these persons has less to do with
    background than it does to do with lack of maturity, lack of any taste
    whatsoever and down-right MEANness.
    
    I'm from the South and I've known some capital R-Rednecks, but I can't
    imagine them behaving in this way.  And I've known some "Southern
    Gentlemen" who, in spite of education (not always in the South) and
    upbringing by very PROPER Southern parents, I can EASILY imagine would
    take great delight participating in this disgusting, obscene behavior.
    
    In general, maybe it's time to sharpen the surgical knives and remove
    the offending "members"?...

    I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I tried to make it through most
    of the replies here but I could only make it as far as .25 before
    I gave up. I just wanted to put in my .02 cents worth from another
    perspective:
    
    I've been involved in community theatre now for over a decade (god
    I feel old); and nearly every show I've done, there have been community
    dressing rooms for the entire casts. Now, when you're involved in
    this type of project, you usually don't have time to look at the
    other person's bodies, etc. You're there to put on a production.
    
    Now, while this may not seem like it relates to what Ms. Olson is
    going through, it does say a lot for respect for the individual
    as perceived through another's eyes. I appreciate the female body
    a great deal, and I won't lie and say I haven't looked at my fair
    share of them in theatre; but when it *was* done by the males (and
    females, to be fair) I've worked with, it was done both fleeting and 
    respectful, and never once was a comment made or an advance taken 
    towards any of the members in our community. (we usually saved that up 
    for the cast party, joke joke ;-) 
    
    But in the dressing rooms, either sports or theatrically related,
    there must be a concentration on the events at hand and a maturity to 
    recognize that a person of the opposite sex is there to do a job, just 
    like you. 
    
    One other point I'd like to make is that this probably isn't an
    isolated incident with the sexual harassment issue...it's just that
    these guys took it to the extreme and were caught with their...their
    
    naaahhhhh.....I can't say it. ;-)

    
    re 100% of NFL players being college educated.
    
    Bonnie,
    
    Where did you get this info from?  I honestly find it hard to
    believe.
    
    Genuinely curious,
    Michele

    
    	RE: 100% of NFL players being college educated.
    
    	Nearly all NFL players are picked from college football teams,
    	which means that they've attended college, but doesn't necessarily
    	mean that they all graduated.
    
    	In fact, one of the controversies about college sports is that
    	some of these players don't end up with enough education to do
    	much else if they *don't* end up with a career in pro sports.
    

    re .55 They have attended college. A majority of them attended
    on athletic scholarships, were admitted without the credentials
    required of 'real' students, majored in 'basket weaving' or
    some such, probably didn't get a degree. However, technically,
    they are 'college educated'. College sports is a big source
    of income for the bigger schools, so they prostitute themselves.

re .53

>Title:  a vote for dismemberment

>In general, maybe it's time to sharpen the surgical knives and remove
>the offending "members"?...

Why is it that when men make fools of themselves by not using the organ between
their ears, someone suggests the removal of the organ between their legs?

-Hamp

    re: .57
    
    That's a value judgement that may or may not be supported by the
    facts. 
    
    It is certainly not true in all cases.
    
    It is certainly not true that all northeastern urban professionals
    who attended college learned anything there.
    
    --bonnie

    re .58
    In this particular case the member between the legs carried out the
    orders of whatever was or was not between the ears.  And in this
    particular instance since the penises were being used somewhat as 
    weapons ("an instrument of offensive or defensive combat; a means of
    contending against another" *Websters*), disarmament (or dismemberment,
    as the case may be) would seem appropopriate.
    
    Of course it'll never happen...  

    To Bonnie Randall (and others),
    
    I was attempting to use a sociological 'shorthand' to describe the
    class background of the groups and the attitudes involved.  Perhaps it
    would have been better to use the terms 'Archie Bunker-types' and
    'professional/executive types'.  I am very aware that this shorthand 
    is not applicable to individuals per se.  I've lived in both the Deep
    South and rural Mid-West as well as New England, and met truly wonderful 
    individuals who belied the stereotypes of their regions.
    
    One of the joys of living in the USA is that individuals have always been 
    able to transcend (or fall from) their birth social class based on their 
    willingness to change as individuals and conform to the norms of another 
    group.  [This is part of what makes race- and sex- based discrimination 
    so problematical in our society.  They are the two things which the 
    individual involved *cannot* change.]
    
    I'm also aware that most professional sports players have honed their
    playing skill while attending college, particularly if their sports are
    football or basketball.  There is a long and on-going debate about the
    propriety of using college sports as the de facto minor leagues for
    professional sports.  I am one who comes down strongly on the side that
    this use of college sports is wrong.  College scholarships for athletic
    prowess simply do not compute for me.  Thus it seems to me that those
    players who attend college with the mind-set that they are preparing
    for a pro sports career are probably *not* getting the cultural
    diversity enrichment that can accrue to students focused on other
    concerns.
    
    My apologies to those who felt slighted - truly it was not meant that
    way. 
    
    Alison

    	As might be expected, Lisa Olson is already in the process of being
    	crucified in more than one other conference on the net (for having
    	been sexually harassed.)

    	In spite of the fact that she's the one wronged - and didn't even
    	lodge the original complaint - she's cited as "a classic bitch" 
    	(with an "attitude" against men,) as well as someone who "hassles" 
    	male sports figures for interviews (what reporter doesn't????), and 
    	a troublemaker.

    	It's sickening - and suddenly, so much easier to imagine the way
    	rape victims are put on trial.

    Well, well.. so typical of you.
    
    First off, did you see the program.?  No??? then dont hurt yourself
    whilst barfin.... 
    
    Secondly, I NEVER stated that she WASNT harrasses, I never condoned
    their actions....
    
    I did however state that I can see where the labels are coning from
    now, she is a classic bitch in my book.  she did indeed act like a
    classic bitch on the tube.  She made ignorant comments towards male
    members in the audience BEFORE THE DAM QUESTIONS EVEN STARTED!
    
    Now, for the freakin last time, and for the record;
    
    Kiam is an ass for his comments, the pats that harrassed her [Lisa}
    were asses, they deserve to be punished (can you read this Suzanne?)
    they wronged her and deserve anything that they get.  BUT!, and thats a
    big BUT, she is also an ass.  She has showed the world that she is
    using the media to her advantage.  Even one person in the audience
    stated, "You know, I have heard of so-and-so, and so-and-so, but until
    this, I had never heard of you!"
    
    Is that clear enough for you oh mighty microscope?
    
    GESH!
    
    PS.  And folks, I am addressing this because the "other conference" was
    MENNOTEs and I was the author of that note.  Suzanne used spacific
    words that I used in my note, that is how I know who and what she is
    talking about.
    
    

    
    	And so it goes...
    

    
    	Re: .62
    
    	I don't think you've accurately expressed the discussions 
    taking place in the other conferences you follow. Yes, some
    are indeed trying to disparage Ms. Olson. Many, however are
    defending her right to perform her job duties and are
    condemning the actions of the players, myself included.
    
    	Perhaps those in support of Ms. Olson note more like
    I do, with one maybe two notes per topic and those opinions
    may be overlooked. Nevertheless, they are there in support
    of her.
    
    							Hank

    
    	RE: .65  Hank
    
    	You're right - I did forget to say that only **some** people
    	are crucifying Lisa Olson.
    
    	Others, as you say, are defending her most vehemently (including
    	a number of quiet *and* very outspoken men.)
    

    The National  Football League office recognizes a PR disaster when
    it  happens,  so  they  are  going to appoint a special counsel to
    investigate.  Two  cheers.  They're  doing the right thing, but it
    took them a good bit longer than it should have.

--David

    
    re .63:
    
    Well, I *don't* read the other conferences, but your comments
    *right here* make me want to throw up!
    
    P.S. I think you've proved Suzanne's point extremely well.
    

    re .63 "...She is using the media to her advantage..."
    
    i would phrase that differently.
    
    SHE didn't break the story, THE GLOBE did.  if she were
    taking advantage of the media, i would have thought that
    she would have been the first to break the news........
    
    

re:         <<< Note 401.63 by NRUG::MARTIN "Lets turn this MUTHA OUT!" >>>
<
<    were asses, they deserve to be punished (can you read this Suzanne?)
<    they wronged her and deserve anything that they get.  BUT!, and thats a
<    big BUT, she is also an ass.      
    

	Usually, when you hear something preceded by "but", an excuse
	follows, which tends to attempt to either explain why the action
	was either not really so bad, or why there were extenuating 
	circumstances leading up to the original 'action' that required
	the 'but'.

	Now, I'm not saying you *INTENDED* to convey the impression that
	Ms Olsen's 'classic bitchiness' excused the Pat's sexuall 
	harrassment, but that is how it sounded to me, (and by replies,
	to at least a few others.)

	Or as my mother used to say, (quite a lot, actually  8-}  )

		But nothing!  Did you do it or not??!!
		Your [...] your sister totally outweighs *ANYTHING*
		she could have said/done to 'egg' you on.  Period.

	What angers me about some of the replies in this and in other
	conferences, is that the focus has shifted *primarily* to what
	Ms Olsen either did then or in past interviews *that explaines
	why the Pats were upset with her*.  And any attempt to bring 
	the topic back to what the Pat's did is answered, "We never
	said the Pats were right , BUT Lisa did ......."

	I for one, am sick of hearing that "BUT" every time a case of
	violence againt women is discussed.
	
	mary

    RIGHT ON!
    

    
    	I, for one, am not very pleased with the discussion in MENNOTES
    	either. And that's putting it mildly.
    
    	I've spent the last two days debating if it's even worth spending
    	time in that 'community', especially discussing this and the
    	related topics it has sprung up.  Some men are wonderful there, 
    	but on the whole I just cannot 'connect' with many of the
    	attitudes so vehemently displayed there.
    
    	It's a men's issues nightmare... 
    
    	-Erik

    re: .61
    
    Alison, thanks for clarifying that. 
    
    But I'm still concerned about implying that the professional/
    executive category and the Archie Bunker category are mutually
    exclusive, as though getting a college degree and participating in
    more prestigious careers guaranteed open minds and tolerant social
    attitudes.  You also seem to be implying that business and
    professional types don't play football.
    
    But many pro football players are or go on to become businessmen
    and professionals.  Alan Page, one of the best defensive linemen
    of the recent past, is now an assistant attorney general for the
    state of Minnesota. Fran Tarkenton is a highly effective (and
    highly paid) consultant to business and industry.  One of the
    Patriots' linemen is a dentist.  Pat Hadyn was a Rhodes scholar. 
    And the list of former players who own all or part of their own
    business would be very long indeed. 
    
    I'm concerned that this distinction implies a "What else did you
    expect from that kind of people" mentality, which can lead to
    either unfairly condemning others who share the same background
    but who might not share the same views, or on the other hand to
    excusing their behavior because that's just how people from x
    background behave.  Either way it only promotes stereotyping.
    
    --bonnie

    
       I personally don't think opposite sex reporters should be in
    locker rooms.  I don't buy this " It the 1990's " crap.
    
    So, what's the next step ???   High school boy reporters in the
    female locker rooms of the girls field hockey team???
    
    

    re.74
    
    Oh, I see.  Lisa and the reporter from the GLobe got together with
    the 5 Patriots players and said, "Hey, Lisa'd like to be famous. She'll
    be working the next game.  Would you guys mind surrounding her, waving
    your (euphemism) in her face and making demeaning, obscene and
    threathening remarks to her?"  And, the players said, "Yea, sure. Not
    only will she get publicity but think what it'll do for us and the
    team's image."  Makes sense to me!
    

	RE: just a PR ploy....


	yeah, right!  I'm sure there are lots of women out there,
	holding respected professional jobs, just dying for the
	chance to have have 4-5  exceptionally LARGE men stand
	stark naked within inches from her face waving body
	parts around and growling about what THEY think she
	wants to do with it (what they think she *should* do?
	telling her to do it?)

	come on, get real.  watch any school yard when the
	big kids surround the little one and start calling
	names, saying nasty things about his mother. watch
	the little one's face. He's haveing a great time,
	isn't he???

	now try picturing it as a bunch of high school football
	players surrounding a fifth grader. (gets the relative
	sizes about right.)

	now put pipes in their hands..... (physical force)

	now have them talk about how he's a fag, and how he'd
	really wants to have the pipes shoved up his a**.

	now have this happen in front of his peers at school.
	all of them watching him.  judging how he reacts.  girls and
	boys both.  

	now picture this with YOURSELF as the fifth grader.

	Sure,  you'd do this for a PR gag, wouldn't you?

	afterall,  it's only words!

    Women sports reporters have been in professional sport locker rooms
    for over 10 years. 
    
    There is a gigantic difference between covering professional football
    and high school sports. 
    
    There are light years of difference between covering professional
    football and girls' sports. When anybody cares enough about *women's*
    professional sports to want to interview the players in the locker
    room, I'll be thrilled. It hasn't happened yet. It probably will never
    happen, and to use the example of reporters going into girls' locker
    rooms shows no understanding of the perception of women in sports.
    
    And for the last time. The guys have a place to change. They are not
    unclothed. And they've been interivewed by women reporters for *years*.
    
    --DE
    

    
    RE:   <<< Note 401.54 by CSCMA::BALDWIN >>>
    
    >One other point I'd like to make is that this probably isn't an
    >isolated incident with the sexual harassment issue...it's just that
    >these guys took it to the extreme and were caught with their...their
    
    I think the words you're looking for are:
    "their brains in their hands!"

    Silly me, I thought it was "pants down", although another location for
    brain came to mind as well.
    
    aq
    

    to .78.....
    
      It's hardly " light years "  difference as you say !
    
     It maybe just as important to the high school boy who's working
    for the school paper as it is to Lisa Olson covering the Pats.
     
    

    in re .81
    
    do high school boys interview other high school boys after the
    game in the locker room? do most high schools have separate
    locker and shower areas so that privacy can be maintained if
    desired? does the salary of the high school boy depend on his
    getting good post game interviews? can a high school boy be
    considered professional enough to only look for the interview?
    
    BJ

    .82,  All good questions.....especially about the boy's 
    professionalism.  
     
       The problem is that maybe someday soon, any given school board
    could follow the NFL's policy on this issue !!!
    
      Also how can you equate equal rights to the level of importance
    to the sport,or if there are separate shower/locker areas..etc
    
    

    
    One more thing,   Victor + Lisa were just caught in the middle,both
    said things out of anger. The fault lies with the NFL's rulling on
    the subject. In time, other organizations, under pressure to change,
    may follow the lead set by the NFL. So my example in .75 is not that
    far from reality.
    

    in re the importance of the sport...
    
    sports writers who report on major league ball depend
    for their living on getting good interviews with the
    players, high school newspaper reporters do not earn
    their livings reporting on girls field hocky games.
    
    and if  there is a separate locker area, so that players
    can shower and dress in privacy then interviews in the locker
    area can be conducted discretely with no invasion of privacy.
    
    and I kind of doubt the average school board would use an NFL
    ruling to allow boy reporters into the girls locker rooms, tho
    I do admit that stranger things do happen.
    
    bonnie

    RE: .84:
    
    No, the fault lies with the players who were guilty of sexual
    harrassment -- regardless of the NFL ruling!  (Which is not to say
    that the ruling is probably ridiculous and probably should be changed.)
    
    Why do we look to blame everyone expect the person or persons who do
    the harrassing?
    
    Nancy

    
     Haven't you ever said anything out of anger that shouldn't be
    printed .86 ?
    
        IT IS THE FAULT OF THE NFL....!!!!! Their decision effects
    many, many people !!!!!!!!!!!!!   
    

    
    	RE: .87
    
    	No way.  Allowing reporters the same access (regardless of sex)
    	was the only fair decision they could make, if reporters were
    	to be allowed in the locker rooms at all.
    
    	The actions of the players were clearly wrong - they have no
    	excuse for what they did.
    

    inre .87
    
    it is *NOT* the fault of the NFL, it is the fault of a group
    of men who found it necessary to demean a woman in a totally
    disgusting fashion.
    
    Unless you are going to ban women from being sports writers
    then they *must* have equal access with male sports writers
    to interview the players. PERIOD.
    
    The fault lies with the men who sexually harassed. PERIOD.
    
    Bonnie

    One last time... this time with feeling, and to make sure that I dont
    use improper words or say things that just might be read wrongly, I
    will ditto what Bonnie said.
    
    And furthermore, all I was saying is that she (lisa) was indeed acting
    like what Victor allegedly called her on the program that I saw her on.
    
    OK???? damn!

    RE: .87
    
    > Haven't you ever said anything out of anger that shouldn't be
    > printed .86 ?
    
    I don't know whether or not I have, but that is totally irrelvant and
    does not excuse the Patriots -- who claimed to be "having fun!" *NOT*
    "expressing anger!"  I sure haven't tried to express anger at some guy
    by shaking my bare t*ts in his face!
    
>        IT IS THE FAULT OF THE NFL....!!!!! Their decision effects
>    many, many people !!!!!!!!!!!!!   
    
    So I can insult a minority co-worker and blame Digital for having a Valuing
    Differences corporate policy?  Give me a break!
    
    Nancy
    
    

    
    re 87
    
    Oh so the NFL told these guys to go sexually harrass this reporter?
    
    
    Yeah right!!

    re .92    I didn't say the NFL said they could harrass, I stated
    their decision to allow female reporters into locker rooms was at
    fault. Please re-read my entries !
    
    

    in re .93
    
    so the women reporters must be barred from the locker rooms so
    that men won't harass them?
    
    should the men reporters be barred also?
    
    Bonnie
    
    nothing excuses sexual harassment

    Bonnie makes a good point back in .89 I believe.
    
      Maybe it's best to ban all reporters from locker rooms. Giving
    both genders a fair shot " AT THE STORY ".
    
        Reporters covering rock stars after concerts are generally not
    allowed near the stars until after showered + rested a bit. So, maybe
    pro sports could follow the same example. ....Well...it was a nice
    thought....
    
    
    

    NO FAIR Bonnie,,, you snuck your reply in before mine !!!!
    
        again yes,  banning both would work better than the present 
    rule !
    
     adios,
    Jack
    

Article 255 of clari.news.sex:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!rust.zso.dec.com!bacchus.pa.dec.com!decwrl!apple!lll-winken!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (FREDERICK WATERMAN, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.news.sex
Subject: Reporter describes Patriots' sexual harassment
Keywords: women, special interest, newspapers, media, sex, human interest,
	football, men's professional
Message-ID: <6Rfbn-patriots_196@clarinet.com>
Date: 27 Sep 90 19:35:35 GMT
Lines: 82
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Location: new england states, massachusetts
ACategory: regional
Slugword: ma-fbn-patriots
Priority: major
Format: regular
X-Supersedes: <5Rfbn-patriots_196@clarinet.com>
ANPA: Wc: 819; Id: u1384; Sel: bu--u; Adate: 9-27-325ped; Ver: sked
Codes: ynjwrxb., ybinrxb., ynhxrma., ysfprxb.


	BOSTON (UPI) -- The woman reporter who was sexually harassed by the
New England Patriots said Thursday receiver Zeke Mowatt suggested she
perform oral sex on him in the locker room.
	In two televised interviews, sports writer Lisa Olson of the Boston
Herald said during the Sept. 17 incident she was sitting down when the
undressed Mowatt came up close to her and said, ``'Do you want to take a
bite out of this?'''
	The controversy, inflamed by Victor Kiam's comments about a woman
reporter being an ``intruder'' in the locker room, comes less than two
years after Kiam's daughter went into the Patriots' locker room after a
game.
	On Thursday, the Herald called for fans to boycott the Patriots'
Sunday home game against the New York Jets.
	Olson, appearing on ``CBS This Morning,'' said the Sept. 17 incident
began when ``a couple of players had decided to teach me a lesson. That
if I was going to be in their locker room, they were going to give me
what they thought I was in there for.''
	She was interviewing a player when she saw Mowatt approach her.
	``I kind of turned around so I won't have to look at him,'' she said.
``Two seconds later, he's standing right in front of me, making lewd
gestures, saying vicious things like, 'This is what you want,' 'This is
what you are here for,' and 'Do you want to take a bite out of this?'''
	Olson said several players were ``egging him on, saying, 'Give her
what she wants, give her what she wants, make her look, make her look,
that is what she's in here for.'''
	She said four other players approached her making similar coarse
gestures and she refused to look up. Olson said she could not identify
the other players because ``I would not dignify what they were doing
with (any) response.''
	Mowatt has been summoned to a meeting in New York with NFL
Commissioner Paul Tagliabue and is expected to make the trip Friday
morning. The Patriots fined Mowatt $2,000 for verbally abusing Olson,
then declared their investigation complete.
	Olson said she hopes Tagliabue will learn the names of all involved,
levy ``substantial'' fines and force them to seek counseling. She would
also like to see Kiam suspended.
	Kiam, who called Olson a ``classic bitch,'' originally came out in
support of the Patriots who harassed her, saying, ``I can't disagree
with the players' actions.''
	In an interview published in the Herald, Kiam said, ``Your paper's
asking for trouble sending a female reporter to cover the team. Why not
stand in front of her (naked) if she's an intruder?''
	But on Oct. 30, 1988, Kiam's daughter Robin, who is in her 20s,
entered the team locker room after a game with the Chicago Bears. Kiam
was reportedly angry with her for doing so and she has not visited it
since.
	In Thursday's editions of the Herald, the newspaper urged a fan
boycott of the Patriots-Jets game. The article said attendance at the
game could be ``confused by Kiam as fan support for his deplorable words
and actions.'' Herald Sports Editor Bob Sales said fans should boycott
the game because the Patriots ``will understand it if they feel
(financial) pain.''
	The team has 20,000 tickets remaining for the game at Foxboro
Stadium, which seats a capacity of 60,794.
	Patriots management was notified the same day the harassment happened
but Olson says she heard nothing from the organization until three days
later, as the Boston Globe was preparing a story on the incident.
	For several days, Kiam withheld any apology for the players' actions
or his own words.
	In a television interview Tuesday evening, Kiam claimed Olson once
went into a shower area after a game. Within three hours of the
broadcast, Kiam recanted everything, said his facts were wrong and
apologized to Olson. She refused to accept his apology. The Herald is
considering legal action.
	``We're trying to deal with something which borders on criminal
behavior,'' Sales said.
	Olson, appearing with Sales on Boston's ``People Are Talking''
program, said the incident ``would have been sexual assault if it had
happened anywhere else'' than a locker room.
	Olson is in her first year of covering the Patriots after writing
about the NHL's Boston Bruins last season. She said if someone had
harassed her in the Bruins locker room, ``you can believe Ray Bourque or
someone else would have punched the guy.''
	Kiam, who appears in television ads for his Remington shaving
company, is reportedly considering hiring a New York public relations
firm to deal with his deteriorating image.
	The Boston chapter of the National Organization for Women said
Thursday: `` ... we ask you to consider whom you support when you buy
Remington Products. Certainly, we do not need to give money to those who
denigrate women and condone aggressive acts of sexual harassment and
discrimination.''

********************************************************************************
********************************************************************************
Article 258 of clari.news.sex:
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From: clarinews@clarinet.com (FREDERICK WATERMAN, UPI Sports Writer)
Newsgroups: clari.news.sex
Subject: Patriots dispute Olson's version of sexual harassment
Keywords: women, special interest, sex, human interest, pornography,
	social issues
Message-ID: <Ufbn-patriots_197@clarinet.com>
Date: 28 Sep 90 21:27:11 GMT
Lines: 42
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Location: new england states, massachusetts
ACategory: regional
Slugword: ma-fbn-patriots
Priority: major
Format: regular
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Codes: ynjwrxb., ynhxrma., ynxprxb., xxxxxxxx


	BOSTON (UPI) -- Several New England Patriots dispute details of a
woman reporter's description of how she was sexually harassed in the
team's locker room.
	Lisa Olson of the Boston Herald charges that on Sept. 17 she was
sitting on a bench, interviewing cornerback Maurice Hurst, when five
naked players approached her and made lewd comments. She says that
receiver Zeke Mowatt asked, ``'Do you want to take a bite out of this?'''
while other players ``egged him on.
	``It didn't happen like she's saying,'' receiver Cedric Jones told
the Providence Journal in an interview published Friday. ``She's making
it sound like everybody was standing around cheering. The reason guys
were close to her was that she was sitting near the scale. Everybody
weighs in, before and after practice.''
	Hurst told the Journal, ``Some of the guys felt she could have done
(the interview) somewhere else'' rather than near the scale, but this is
where Hurst's locker is situated. He agreed with some of Olson's
allegations, saying, ``Some guys made comments on their way to the
showers. I never paid attention to who it was. I was looking at her to
see if she'd look up and say something. She never turned her head to see
who was talking.''
	Hurst says the players did not approach Olson, ``If she says guys
were in her face, she's telling a story there.''
	Tackle Bruce Armstrong said he saw the entire incident and agrees 
``that something was said which was in very bad taste. I'm not trying to
justify what Zeke said or to say she wasn't wronged.''
	He agreed that other players called out to Olson, but ``I can't say
who it was without hurting who said it. But, after Zeke said what he
did, somebody said, 'Did you tell her about it?' They didn't say, like
some people claim, 'Did you show her?'''
	General Manager Patrick Sullivan was not present when the incident
took place but told another Herald reporter that ``what was alleged to
have happened wasn't what happened.'' The Patriots fined Mowatt $2,000
and Sullivan twice apologized to Olson for the incident.
	Mowatt's scheduled Friday morning meeting with NFL Commissioner Paul
Tagliabue was cancelled. Because the controversy kept growing during the
past week and became a national issue, Tagliabue decided that a special
counsel was necessary to investigate the incident.
	On Friday, the Herald reiterated its call for fans to boycott
Sunday's Patriots home game against the New York Jets. As of Friday
afternoon, the Patriots had more than 20,000 seats remaining for the
game at Foxboro Stadium, which has a capacity of 60,794.

    
    re 93
    
    So the NFL's DECISION is what made these guys sexually assault her?
    
    Still confused!!
    
    The only folks responsible for sexually harrassing Ms. Olson are
    the men who did it.  It was THEIR fault.
    
    Michele

According to Michael Madden's column in Monday's Globe, Victor Kiam and
Lisa Olson met on Sunday (breakfast at Logan Airport, as I recall).  There,
Kiam apologized and Olson accepted his apology.

For what it's worth, an earlier reply in this string mentioned that Kiam
has a daughter who is very close to Olson's age.  (I am not speculating
that this affected the incident in any way, but merely offering additional
information for the benefit of non-Bostonians who are getting their news from
notesfiles.)

Martin.

    RE: Jack Flathers
    
    I will not address the issue that the men who harrass women are
    totally and completely to blame. Others are making that point
    quite well.
    
    What I will say is that women reporters have been interviewing
    male jocks for about 10 years now. At no point in that 10 years has
    women's sports at ANY level become so important that anyone gave
    a rat's *ss enough to go out of their way to interview the 
    participants right after the game. Or ever, in many cases.
    
    I coached and taught high school sports for years. Trust me. Nobody
    cares about the girls' sports except the girls, their coaches,
    relatives, and a few townsfolk. If any school ever puts it's *ss
    on the line (and being so fearful of lawsuits, I doubt it would
    ever happen) to let school reporters into the locker room, it'll
    be  the boys' locker room, not the girls'.
    
    It's been TEN YEARS. If it hasn't happened by now, it ain't suddenly 
    gonna happen.
    
    --DE
    

    
      to EVANS.   You seem to be stuck on the issue of the importance
    of women's sports.  Your 2 replies .78 + .100 are about the same
    stuff.  
    
       But what about pro tennis?  MOre women stars in the sports news
    when it comes to tennis !
    
      Seems to me female tennis players get all kinds of press !!!
    

    
    	I never agreed with allowing reporters of either sex in the
    locker rooms.  I just read a responce in another file by a fellow
    that worked there (Foxboro Statium and has been in the locker room)
    and he says that the locker room is basicly one big open room all
    parts visible from all parts, and the only way to get any priviacy
    is to go into a toilet stall and close the door.  Assumeing this
    is true my opinion of reporters (both sexes) has just reached a
    new all time low.
    
    Joe

     After last night football game in Seattle, The coach of the Cinn.
    Bengals refuse to let in the female reporter from the USA Today
    newspaper. Sam Wyce (SP), the coach, stated that he would not let in a
    female reporter while he is a coach....
    
    REK

>     After last night football game in Seattle, The coach of the Cinn.
>    Bengals refuse to let in the female reporter from the USA Today
>    newspaper. Sam Wyce (SP), the coach, stated that he would not let in a
>    female reporter while he is a coach....
    

	That's nice.  I hope he has a sex discrimination suit slapped
	on him before the day is out.


	kathy

    The reason women aren't interviewed in their locker rooms is probably
    because sports reporters and their audience don't care enough about 
    women's sports to want to get every pearl of wisdom that may fall from 
    a female athletes lips or to hear what sort of candid remarks they might
    make.
    	Linda

    
    During one of the many interviews I've watched on television regarding
    this subject it was mentioned that NCAA womens basketball and the
    womens locker at the US open are open to the press.
    
    Rich

    re .102:
    
>    I just read a responce in another file by a fellow
>    that worked there (Foxboro Statium and has been in the locker room)
>    and he says that the locker room is basicly one big open room all
>    parts visible from all parts, and the only way to get any priviacy
>    is to go into a toilet stall and close the door.  Assumeing this
>    is true my opinion of reporters (both sexes) has just reached a
>    new all time low.
    
    How does it follow that your opinion of reporters is lower now
    because you've found out that football locker room facilities
    aren't to your liking?
    

    
     Way to go .102 !!!    It's amazing what the media will do for a
    story. Trample over someone's right to some dignity + privacy for
    a story. Ban them ALL from the locker rooms.
    
      Sexual harassment is wrong, that's obvious, but I can't believe
    nobody will point a finger at the NFL ruling to allow the self-
    righteous press to be hovering around the lockers waiting for
    players to return from the showers. GIVE ME A BREAK !!!!!!!
    
      Enough said....I've got work to do......besides this is a rathole.
    
    Jack
    

What's the problem here? Ya'll got one-track minds?  Can't carry on two
conversations in the same string?

Lemme explain.  We got *two*, count 'em, *two* discussions going on in
the self-same reply string.

1) The issue of whether and how Lisa Olson (?) was harassed, and if so, what
should be done about it...and more generally, are female reporters harassed
by male atheletes?

2) Whether female reports should be allowed in the locker rooms of all-male
atheletic teams...and more generally, whether *any* reporters should be
allowed in *any* locker rooms?


Some people are talking about (1) and saying "What happened was harassment,
it shouldn't have happened, and the blame lies with the players who did
the harassing (or with Lisa [whoever] herself, or...".

Some people are talking about (2) and saying "Women should not be allowed
in men's locker rooms" or "women *should* be allowed in men's locker rooms."

My take on the two discussions?  (1)  What happened was harassment, the
blame lays with the players, and they should be penalized.  (2) I do not
think women should be allowed in lockers rooms, and I am starting to be
convinced that reporters shouldn't be allowed in locker rooms at all.

By no means just (2) justify (1).  or have anything to do with (1) for
that matter.  It really is possible, believe it or not, to be opposed to
*both* the harassement that this particular female reporter faced, *and*
to be opposed to women being in men's locker rooms.  *gasp*!!!!

D!

    
    RE:.107
    
    >How does it follow that your opinion of reporters is lower now
    >because you found out that foorball locker roomfacilities
    >aren't to your liking?
    
    Knowing that there are no places for players to shower or get 
    dressed in private and they still barge in there to do interviews 
    IMHO shows a lack of common courtesy.  I wouldn't want them in 
    my bathroom while I was showering and getting dressed and I'm 
    fairly sure you wouldn't either.
    
    Joe 

    Sounds to me as though *that* should be laid at the door of the league
    or the football commissioner (is there such a thing?) rather han the
    reporters...it's not the reporters who gave themselves permission.
    
    						=maggie

    
    RE:.111
    
    =maggie I believe your partially right.  It should be laid on the
    league/commissioners front door.  Although I think their first 
    decission to allow reporters access to the locker room was wrong
    at least it was equal access.  When I was a young teenager I used
    to sneak cigarettes, then my mother gave me permission to smoke 
    that made it alright I didn't have to sneak anymore.  You know
    even thuogh I still have Moms permission I don't smoke anymore
    because I know it's bad for my health, it's not the right thing 
    to do.  I would hope that the reporters would have a little common
    courtesy and do the right thing.
    
    Joe 
    
    P.S. For the record I think 
    this is a clear case of sexual
    harassment that should have 
    never been allowed to happen.
    

    Well, Vic made both U.S. News and World Report and Time.  One article
    -- don't remembe which and I forgot to bring them with me --
    characterized the actual incident as the players "allegedly making lewd
    remarks" to Lisa Olsen.  The other called ti sexual harassment. But,
    the emphasis in both articles was Kiam's response.  The quotes
    attributed to him in both articles show him for the jerk he really is.

    upsetting article in the Globe today about the way in which Lisa
    is being treated is typical of sexual harrassment victims, ie. she
    is being attacked and further harrassed.  At the Foxborough Patriots
    game apparently some fans held up signs that said things like "Lisa
    got Sacked in the Pats Locker Room", and other fans had blow up
    dolls with her hair color and the genital region outlined.  My opinion
    of "sports fans" is going down.  In the Herald, the picture of Kiam
    at the stadium showed alot of male fans reaching out to shake his
    hand and congratulate him.
    	Linda

    I find  D!'s  note  .109  upsetting because it justifies a clearly
    unacceptable but common behaviour.

    Whenever a woman complains about sexual harrasment or violence the
    issue  is immediately changed to what did she do to deserve it. We
    don't  have two issues here. For 12 years women reporters have had
    access   to  locker  rooms  of  male  atheletes  and  nobody  here
    complained.  As  soon  as  a  woman is (alledgedly) harrassed in a
    locker  room  we  ignore  her  complaint and start blaming her for
    doing her job in a legal, professional manner.

    If the  allegations  are  true,  she  is the victim of assault and
    sexual  harrasment,  both  of which are criminal offenses. That is
    the only issue. Discussion about her right to be there is merely a
    way  to  deflect  attention  from alledged criminal acts. There is
    absolutely no question about her legal right to be there.

--David

	Thank you David.

	_peggy

    I believe today's Globe says that the [insert_name_of_national_football_
    group_investigating_this_incident_'cause_I_forgot_already] has hired
    a lawyer to investigate who was involved in the Watergate investigation
    and is somehow connected to Harvard.
    
    They're calling it "From Watergate to Lockergate"
    ;}
    Nancy

David, you appeared to miss this part of my message, so let me reinterate:

THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT REPORTERS OF ONE SEX SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN THE
LOCKER ROOMS OF ANOTHER HAS NO BEARING, repeat *NO* *BEARING*, ON WHETHER
WHAT HAPPENED TO LISA OLSON CONSTITUTES HARASSMENT, AND IF SO, WhAT SHOULD
BE DONE ABOUT IT.

THE FACT THAT I BELIEVE THAT WOMEN SHOULDN'T BE IN MEN'S ROOMS IN NO WAY,
repeat *NO* *WAY* AFFECTS MY BELIEF THAT LISA OLSON WAS INDEED HARASSED.

Am I making myself perfectly clear?

>For 12 years women reporters have had
>    access   to  locker  rooms  of  male  atheletes  and  nobody  here
>    complained.

What do you mean "nobody here complained"?  "Here" as in womannotes?  As
far as I know, that particular "here" didn't exist 12 years ago.  At any
rate, I, being the total sports ignoramus that I am, had no idea that
interviews occured in locker rooms, or that women were allowed in there.
So how was I to complain?  This whole big issue on the news what the first
I had ever heard of it!!  A situation that I was previously unaware of
was suddenly brought to my attention, so I commented on it.

>As  soon  as  a  woman is (alledgedly) harrassed in a
>    locker  room  we  ignore  her  complaint and start blaming her for
>    doing her job in a legal, professional manner.

Who is "we"?  "We" apparantly does not include "you", since "you" claim
that you are *not* ignoring her complain.  "We" clearly does not include
"me", since I explicitly stated an opinion on her complain (and am therefore
not ignoring it.)  As a matter of fact, our opinions agree.  Since your
note was directed at mine, I am confused about who this "we" you are referring
to is.

>    If the  allegations  are  true,  she  is the victim of assault and
>    sexual  harrasment,  both  of which are criminal offenses.

I agree 100%.  

> That is the only issue.

That is not the only issue under discussion.  At least one person in here
(me) is discussing two (2) issues.  And I get the feeling that there are
other people who are too.  Who are you to say that one issue is a "real"
issue and the other is a non-issue.

>Discussion about her right to be there is merely a
>    way  to  deflect  attention  from alledged criminal acts.

Now you are assessing my motives.  Wrongly, I might add.  I am in no way
(geez, how can I possibly be more explicit about this?!?) trying to
deflect attention from the criminal acts, if any, committed.  If my speaking
about something else deflects *your* attention, then that is due to your
inability to pay attention to multiple conversations at once, no fault of
mine.

>There is absolutely no question about her legal right to be there.

There is no question that her presence in the locker room was completely
legal.  However, there *is* a question (because I asked it) as to whether
it *should* be legal for her to be there (or for any opposite sex reporter
to be in the locker room of an athletic team.)

To reiterate (I still don't understand what the problem is): She shouldn't
have been harassed.  (Question 1 answered.)  I don't think people of one
sex should be allowed in locker rooms of the opposite sex.  (Question 2
answered.)  Where, oh where, is the link between these unrelated questions?

D!

Locker room interviews are taped by television cameras and shown
on tv all the time. Women don't watch tv?

Kathy 

    	RE: .119  Kathy

    	> Locker room interviews are taped by television cameras and
    	> shown on tv all the time.

    	Locker room interviews are ALSO broadcast LIVE sometimes!!

    	One night, a tv crew interviewed John Elway in the locker room
    	(they had a close-up of his face, but you could tell his shoulders
    	and chest were bare.)  

    	As the interview ended, the camera pulled back (so the audience
    	could see the interviewer, and John Elway's full chest and face.)

    	Then, all of a sudden, John stood up and left the camera's view, 
    	and the home audience got a momentary (but quite explicit!!) view 
    	of what John looks like when he's wearing only a jockstrap.

    	When they returned to the news anchors in Denver, they looked a
    	bit shaken, but they laughed (and speculated as to whether or not
    	the station would enter the celebrity poster market.)  :)

    	The bottom line is - no one should interview these guys in the
    	locker room (televised or not.)  But if men are going to be
    	allowed in to do it, they can't keep women out without engaging
    	in discrimination. 

    	So, why not just keep EVERYONE out (men, women, tv cameras, poster
    	photographers, etc.)

Great story, Suzanne. I love it!!! 

    .120
    
    Suzanne, 
    
    Absolutely!
    
    You took the words right outa my mouth!!
    
    -Dotti.

    I've more than one occasion where the local sports reporter was
    interviewing a player from the locker room -- the joys of live tv --
    and other players either partially or fully nude have wandered into the
    bcakground.  The camera person seems to be concentrating on keeping the
    camera on the reporter and interviewee so, until the director back at
    the studio catches it, the viewing is pretty interesting.
    
    What bothered me even more than the incident was the handling of it by
    Kiam and his band of merry men.  There are jerks everywhere so, 
    unfortunately, these incidents still happen.  But, management is
    supposed to -- in fact is legally required to -- to handle them
    properly.  When management fails to do so, it sets the stage for such
    behavior to continue.
    
    By the way, sexual harassment is NOT legal but it is not, to my
    knowledge, a crime.  And, based on my knoweldge of our criminal
    statutes, it's questionable whether or not the incident meets the
    definition of a criminal assault. 
    
    The incident is probably actionable both as assault and as sexual 
    harassment under civil law.  I say probably, because sexual harassment 
    cases usually involve the prepetrator and the victim working for the 
    same employer and the employer's failure to take proper action. The 
    employer is the defendant. Lisa's employer is not the responsible party, 
    nor do they employ the perpetrator.  The legal question would probably be 
    whether or not the Patriot's management had a legal duty to protect Lisa.  
    Unfortunately there isn't a legal remedy for every moral wrong but it
    would be fun trying to find one here. 

re: .100:
    What I will say is that women reporters have been interviewing
    male jocks for about 10 years now. At no point in that 10 years has
    women's sports at ANY level become so important that anyone gave
    a rat's *ss enough to go out of their way to interview the 
    participants right after the game. Or ever, in many cases.

Pardon me, but I've worked in the press-room of the Boston Marathon
for the last four years and I *have* seen the international press
"go out of its way" to interview woman participants right after they
finish, including international phone calls (from Finland) to get
reaction from the runners (it was the selection marathon for the Finnish
Olympic Team).  When Ingrid Kristiansen ran the Boston Milk Run two
2 years ago, there were a cluster of reporters around her after the run
(with me translating while she was being interviewed for a Norwegian
paper).

Several [female] friends of mine have been profiled by the Globe in
their pre-marathon articles, including one who won Boston three times
before women were officially part of the race (one of her times is a
permanent Boston record).

Perhaps you're looking at the wrong sports?

Martin.

    re .124
    
    or perhaps it's different when it's a co-ed event?

    re .124
    
    another counter example....
    
    tennis.  but in the case of tennis, the interviews
    happen before the players make it back to the
    locker rooms.
    

    Kiam was interviewed last night on some news show (Prime Time?).
    Anyway, he was practically frothing at the mouth, about the
    boycott of Remington, babbling on about how 'so many innocent
    people will be hurt,' 'how they actually import to Japan.'
    He really showed himself to be a reactive, jerk.  Anyway,
    I still contend the issue is NOT whether or not women should
    be allowed in the locker room, if men are, then they should be.
    If the players are interviewed by men while naked and don't care,
    well, so what if it's a woman interviewing them naked?
    
    THe ISSUE is the fact that a few naked bullies humiliated and harrassed
    a woman, period.  As usual,  the blame and attacks are turned on the
    victim.
    
    maia
    

    
    To note .127 (maia)
    
    You said: 
     {I still contend the issue is NOT whether or not women should be
      allowed in the locker room, if men are, then they should be}
    
     {If the players are interviewed by men while NAKED and don't care,
      well, so what if it's a woman interviewing them naked?}
    
    
    Well how do you think Chris Everett (Lloyd) would feel in the same
    situation in her locker room NAKED with a male interviewer I don't
    think she would like it very much!  Would you??  We may have not
    come across an incident yet of a male in a female locker room while
    the women are naked, But I'm sure if they did it would be a big issue.
    
    I think that male reporters should be the ones in a mens locker room.
    (That's their place)!
    
    And female reporters should be the ones in a females locker room.
    (That's their place)!!
    
    
    She had no right being in there.  
    
    -Nadine 

re .128:    
    
>    Well how do you think Chris Everett (Lloyd) would feel in the same
>    situation in her locker room NAKED with a male interviewer I don't
>    think she would like it very much!
    
    I would expect Chris to put on a towel or robe if she didn't want
    to be interviewed naked.  I would *not* expect her to cry, whine,
    harass people, complain, or otherwise throw a fit.
    
    Big deal.
    

    	RE: .128  Nadine
    
    	> She had no right being in there.  
    
    	She had every right to be there.  NFL (the players' employer)
    	gave her the right 10 years ago, as well they should have.
    
    	I doubt if Chris Evert Lloyd gives naked interviews to women
    	reporters, by the way, but if she did, then men sportswriters
    	would need to have the same access.
    
    	What is the big thrill for football players to give naked
    	interviews to members of their own sex, anyway?  
    
    	The main point is that women would be excluded from being
    	sportswriters if they were not given equal access to sports
    	figures.  So, if men go in the locker room, so should women
    	(whether the sport involves women or men.) 

    If men's sports weren't so infinitely much more popular than women's,
    I might be able to understand the "only male reporters in men's locker
    rooms, only female reporters in women's locker rooms" argument.  But,
    that's not the case, so I can only see it as a discriminatory
    employment practice that would block women's careers.

    My attitude is that the players work for the sports associations.
    If the sports associations want to allow reporters into the locker
    rooms for publicity purposes, that's their prerogative.  It is the
    player's *job* to deal with that reality.  Nobody said they have to
    be naked in front of the reporters - I'm sure that if they wanted to,
    they could wait until going home to shower and change.

    If Chris Evert Lloyd (or any other athlete) doesn't like the reality 
    of reporting in the locker rooms, s/he can complain to the appropriate
    sports association, and take the accompanying political heat.  Or,
    she can stop using the locker room as a locker room.  Taking it out
    on innocent reporters is an absurd response that shows a lack of
    character and courage (in my opinion).

    Alternatively, I'm sure there are millions of people out there who
    would gladly trade salaries with a superstar athlete with the
    understanding that they be interviewed in their underwear by polite
    reporters (with an accompanying discreet camera crew).  Me, for one.

	Sharon

    
    But if Chris Evert Lloyd gives a naked interview, maybe Martina
    Navratilova will, too.... sigh.
    
    I bet there are a lot of women sports reporters who wish they didn't
    *have* to go into locker rooms.  I heard an interview with a woman
    who'd just written a book on her life as a sports reporter, and
    she said that those locker rooms are gross, noisy, smelly places.
    I suspect that those sports reporters (male and female) who are
    attracted to men, don't find locker rooms all that (sexually)
    thrilling.  It's a job.  No one should be harrassed or physically
    threatened, no matter what kind of job they have or where they're
    required to perform it.
    
    D! I agree that we've been talking about two issues here: the
    harrassment of Lisa Olson and the rightness of women in men's locker
    rooms.  But I think that talking about the two together implies that
    one caused or somehow justifies the other.
    
    Justine
           

This morning's news mentioned that Lisa Olson is no longer covering
the Patriots (who lost another one yesterday), is on vacation, and
"reportedly is leaving the country for a week to get away from the
fanfare."

The fanfare [interesting choice of words, that] included death threats
that the Boston Police and FBI are investigating.

Martin.

    I saw her say on TV that she "had to leave the country" because of
    death threats.  No mention in *that* interview about getting "away from
    the fanfare."  She was very outspoken about it.
    
    Nancy

    Apparently at  one  point  there were a lot of reporters trying to
    interview Ms. Olson, so she retreated into the woman's room, where
    three  (female) reporters interviewed her. Quoth one of the (male)
    reporters outside "What happened to equal access?"

    .18 Phil
    
    The Pats's need all the support we can give them right now-
    Did you see last nites game against Miami - I only watched
    the 1st half.  I don't know why they didn't put in Grogan.
    I really felt bad for Wilson, Fryar dropped the ball, etc.
    Hang in there Phil.  There always next year.....
    
    

    
    re -.1  yea, i saw last night's game against miami... (-: (-:
    
    ~robin

            How to protect athletes' privacy?  Let 'em wear robes
              By Sally Jenkins - Sports Illustrated Oct 22,1990


       There is nothing more  unwittingly  hilarious  than  a  single-issue
  hysteric  in  full  throat.   The more shrill and overwrought troglodytes
  like Sam Wyche, Jack Morris and Victor  Kiam  become,  the  less  serious
  attention  they  deserve.  There is no reasoning with these people on the
  subject of allowing  women  reporters  into  locker  rooms.   It  is  the
  apparently sensible people who concern me.

       Last week my esteemed if wrong-headed colleague Rich Telander  wrote
  in  this  space  that  when  women  are  in  a  locker room with nude men
  "something is out of whack." The presence of these women, said  Telander,
  is  demeaning  to  the  athlete and invades his privacy.  Telander agreed
  that women reporters should have access  equal  to  that  of  their  male
  colleagues.   But  his solution is to close locker rooms entirely and set
  up interview rooms where athletes can meet with the press.

       The attitude of athletes such as Morris, the Detroit Tigers' pitcher
  - who two months ago told a female reporter, "I don't talk to people when
  I'm naked, especially women, unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of
  them"  - is the kind normally associated with crustaceans and other lower
  forms of life.  By comparison, Telander's sentiments appear  valid.   And
  precisely  because  his  views  are thoughtfully expressed, they are more
  dangerous than Morris's.

       Telander, a former college football player, revealed his  bias  when
  he  said  of  his  newspaper  colleagues:   "Their  deadlines are not the
  players' problem." Having never  worked  for  a  daily,  Telander  cannot
  understand  the  pressure of a deadline 20 minutes after the end of game.
  Nor does he appreciate that without locker room reportage, sport would be
  less  vivid to the reader.  The function of a reporter is to document not
  only a team's progress and ability but also its character  and  thoughts,
  and  pass  that  knowledge  on as accurately and as artfully as possible.
  This is best accomplished by engaging athletes in their natural  setting,
  the locker room.  Interview rooms ?  Show me a sport in which the tempers
  and celebrations of its athletes are homogenized  in  this  fashion,  and
  I'll show you the J.C. Penny Golf Classic.

       Moreover, as Telander points out,  players  are  surrounded  by  all
  sorts  of  friends  and hangers-on in the locker room, and nobody is ever
  going to get rid of them.  The last time locker rooms  provided  privacy,
  Grantland  Rice  was  writing and teams traveled on the Broadway Limited.
  Besides, who says athletes are entitled to privacy  ?   They  are  public
  figures  who earn enormous salaries, thanks in good part to the attention
  devoted to them by both print and broadcast journalists.

       Telander's contention that players are entitled to have a  place  in
  which  to collect their thoughts and emotions after that wrenching ordeal
  called a game is silly.  For one thing, every locker room has one or more
  areas  -  showers,  trainers'  room,  players'  lounge - that are already
  off-limits to the  press.   As  for  unwinding:   Sure,  livelihoods  and
  careers are at stake, but this is sport, not brain surgery.  Players lose
  a game, not the patient.

       And they don't have to be naked.  Towels don't cost much.  I'll buy.
  In fact, I'll have them monogrammed.

       Telander also said that men would  never  be  allowed  into  women's
  locker  rooms.   That is inaccurate.  At the NCAA women's Final Four, men
  reporters do enter the women's locker rooms.   The  dirty  little  secret
  there  is  bathrobes.   Look  at  it this way, guys, they're comfortable.
  Attractive, even.  If you like, think of them as  dressing  gowns.   That
  has a certain cachet.

       And yet the terry cloth solution  is  viewed  in  many  quarters  as
  impractical.   More  impractical  than  an interview room ?  More costly,
  time consuming or inconvenient ?

       Let me state for the record that I do not  like  going  into  locker
  rooms, and have never been in one unnecessarily.  Also, in my 10 years as
  a journalist I have entered roughly 250 locker  rooms  without  a  single
  unpleasant  experience.   I  attribute  this  to  my  own  tact  and  the
  commendable behavior of most athletes.  And  not  once  have  I  or  they
  swooned to the floor from either lust or embarrassment.

       The right of women reporters to have the same access as  their  male
  colleagues  is  endorsed by every professional sports league.  It is also
  the law, and has been since 1978, when Melissa Ludtke, then with SI,  won
  the  right  to enter the New York Yankee clubhouse.  U.S.  District Court
  Judge Constance Baker Motley  ruled  that  to  bar  Ludtke  violated  her
  constitutional rights under the 14th Amendment.

       Speaking of the law, if the New England Patriots'  Zeke  Mowatt  did
  indeed  perform  the  lewd  act  that  Boston  Herald reporter Lisa Olson
  alleges he did (SI, Oct.  1), he should be arrested,  as  he  would  have
  been if the episode had occurred in a park or any other public place.

       As for the puerile rantings of other athletes, coaches  and  owners:
  The next time one of them behaves so childishly, give him a truly fitting
  punishment.


       Tell his mother.

    After reading yesterdays Boston Globe, its seems that Lisa Oslen
    made most of the stuff up. The player she had said stood in front
    of her was never close to her. 
    
    REK
    
    Another case of media making a mountain out of nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Once again, media distorts.
    
    Why should I believe the Boston Globe's version over Lisa Olsen's?  Why
    should I believe Lisa Olsen's version vover the Boston Globe's?  
    
    Who can I trust to tell the truth?  Truth defined (as I taught my 4 year 
    olds) as *what really happened*.
    
    aq
    

    
    On a side note...
    
    During the 1st Basketball preseason game between the Celtics
    and Pistons, two Detroit players went out of their way to
    meet and welcome Lisa Olson to the NBA (which she is now covering).
    
    							Hank

    Re:140.. Since all the football players said that Olsen'd version
    was not true... 
    
    REK 

    re .142:
    
    If it's one person's word against another's, then we don't
    really know what happened.  Unless of course since it's a woman's
    word against a man's, you must automatically disbelieve *her*!
    

    RE: .139
    
    > After reading yesterdays Boston Globe, its seems that Lisa Oslen
    > made most of the stuff up.
    
    	What appeared in yesterday's Boston Globe?? I didn't get the paper
    	and am curious about what was revealed and by whom...
    
    	-Erik
    

    Re:143, garbage reply...
    
    My point is that after it was reported everyone wanted to hang the
    player and all the players. Olsen went on NATIONAL TV and told her side
    of the story... The player went and PASSED a lie- detector. I don't
    recall Olsen taking one. 
    
    REK

    re .145:
    
    Lie detector tests are notoriously inaccurate.  There's still
    no "proof" that what the players said was correct.
    
    <Warning, heavy, heavy, *heavy* sarcasm ahead>
    
    >Re:143, garbage reply...
    
    Garbage reply, REK?  What a *nice* person you are, REK.
    I can't wait to meet you in person - you must be even nicer!
    
    

    <set_mode>(Sarcastic)
    
    WEll, yes, of course, if all the players said it didn't happen, it
    didn't happen, obviously.   She just wanted to have a little fun...
    
    Of course, I wonder then why good ole Vic publicly apologised to her?
    
    Hmm, I wonder if the fact that the *PATRIOTS* and Remington may be
    suffering just a bit from negative limelight.
    
    <end_mode>
    
    maia
    

    another thought along the lines of .147
    
    Or perhaps some ploy by the "Globe" to garner some publicity about a
    "Herald" reporter...
    
    
    Judi
    

The "article" in the Globe was actually a column (By Wil Mcdonough I believe..
may be wrong on this point) that stated that the investigator had been unable
to find anyone who could corroborate Lisa's story.  It went on to quote 
several members of the team and their recollections of the incident.  


What the columnist failed to mention was the "fact" that a Globe reporter and
not Lisa originally brought this whole thing to light. I don't believe we can
take this column to mean that the incident did not take place.




Jim

	Uh, it wasn't Lisa who blew the whistle in the first place, so
	there are other witnesses, right!  Also, why would anyone suggest
	something had happened if it hadn't - WHO BENEFITS?  Lisa Olsen,
	well she has gotten publictity and death threats, The Boston Globe,
	who I think ran the expose article to begin with? they sell 
	newspapers and this stuff helps (it also helps to discredit the
	competition, now doesn't it).  Why don't we all just do a little
	reality checking for ourselves and think about who benefits and
	who doesn't and we might just be able to see through the smoke.
	At least for ourselves.

	I personally don't care about sports reporters, but I do care
	when someone is harassed for doing their job while others are not.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Fair is fair is fair is fair

    AND WE KNOW A REPORTER WOULD NOT LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK
    
    Shouting intended........

    
    re .152:
    
    Well, if you're shouting at me, you're wasting your breath.  I
    didn't say which version I believe, now did I, REK?  I said
    *we can't know for sure*.
    
    P.S.  I didn't call any of your notes 'garbage' either.
    It's too funny how men can get away with trashing women's replies
    in womannotes but women in here can't even do the same.  I
    guess the moderators gotta tread carefully on the (few, but vocal!)
    oh-so-fragile male egos.  Hah!  But I guess I shoulda known that!
    

    REK
    
    Are you forgetting that the initial report of the incident was not
    by Lisa but by reporters from another paper? You appear to be saying
    that Lisa lied,  but she was not the one to originally report the
    incident.
    
    BJ

    Re:154... no male bashing there.......
    
    REK

    ps The shouting was for reply .147
    
    REK 

    
    
Opera fans should especially enjoy this piece from last Thursday's
Wall Street Journal:


OPERA NEWS: MALE REPORTED SHAMED IN DIVA LOCKER ROOM

By Larry Wallberg

The recent flap about female journalists interviewing male athletes in the
team's inner sancta reminds me of something that happened to me a number of
years ago, when I was just a cub music reporter.

The federal courts had just decided that newspaperpersons, regardless of
their sex, could not be barred from singers' locker rooms, and I was hanging
aroound waiting to interview star centerstager Jessye Norman after the Mets
had taken a tough one from Wagner.  For 4 1/2 hours, the German had scored
impressively against the New Yorkers, but had nevertheless failed to stop the
Norman juggernaut.

Shortly after the soprano received a penalty from the prompter for holding
during the "Du hehrstes Wunder!" passage in the third quarter, she had left
the field for the duration of the battle, but not before she managed to inflict
a number of crushing blows on the opposition.  Norman had done her job, and now
I had to do mine.  I was determined to talk with her.

The opera commissioner had alreadyy fined a number of house managers who had
vowed to make it difficult for those of us in the media who were guys, so I
assumed I'd have no trouble with Norman's teammates.  Yes, I still was
subjected to the odd sexist comment and the occasional facial epithet - one
of the chorus women insisted on calling me "Mr. Hairy Chin" - but for the most
part, I was treated by the gals with respect.  Now and then one of them might
fly with a "French expression" or two, but that happened only when they were
performing "Carmen", and, after all, I'm a big boy.

As I entered the locker room, a couple of Valkyries could still be heard
singing in the showers, and a few others were towelling off in an area that
was inaccessible to the press.  The spear girl was quietly racking the tools
of the trade and a few of the ladies were answering questions about the
previous night's opening game of the series.

I cornered one of the Rhinemaidens and asked her if she thought her wild
pitches were responsible for the loss of the opener.  "I don't know," she said,
"I though they were going over pretty good.  And don't forget, the official
scorer ruled that the last one was actually an error by Alberich."

We talked about Hunding's fumbbles for a while, and eventually I began gazing
around the room in hopes of spotting Jessye.  I noticed that Hildegard Behrens,
a very likely candidate for most valuable player, had escaped from a throng
of news hounds and was sitting alone.  I'd watched her move around the basses
all night, and boy could she slide.  As I approached her, she began purposefully
removing her breastplate.  "Hey," she yelled to me, "are you writing or
looking?"  One or two of the other women - I was so flustered I can't recall
who they were - bgan making obscene gestures with their helmets.  Humiliated,
I stored out of the locker room.

Later, James Levine, who was then the artistic director of the Metropolitan,
called me an "aggressive dog."  He said tht the ladies' locker rooms henceforth
would be closed to men, "not only for the sake of my players, but for their
husbands, as well."  Naturally, my male colleagues and I were miffed.
Interviewing divas was our work.  The idea of any of us "coming on" to a
Hildegard Behrens or a Jessye Norman was unthinkable.

You probably remember the general todo that went on in the operatic community
following this incident.  Mr. Leving took out a full-page ad in the major
newspapers apologizing for calling me names, and since that time he has
actively campaigned for the sexual integration of the operatic art; next year,
he will conduct the much-heralded Joseph Papp production of "Aida", with
Placido Domingo in the title role.  Ms. Behrens, under threat of suspension
for the remainder of that season, issued a statement that said, in part:
"One ought not underestimate the contribution of Men in the World of Vocal
Superstardom (die Ubersangerwelt)."  A minor player who was found to be
involved subsequently was traded to the Paris Opera.

Be that as it may, the U.S. Supreme Court is still scheduled to hear arguments
in the case of Porter vs. Bubbles, et al., and a number of congressmen have
begun calling for legislation making it illegal for anyone to interview a singer
before 30 minutes have elapsed after the completion of a performance - the
so-called "It Ain't Over Till a Half-Hour After the Fat Lady Sings" Bill.

As for this reporter, the notoriety engendered by my brush with Brunnhilde has
made it increasingly difficult for me to continue on the opera circuit.  The
word around the editor's office, in fact, is that I might have to accept being
switched to sports.

			_________________________

Mr. Wallberg is awaiting his fate in New York.

    

    
    low-class musician scuttlebut about mr. levine and ms. norman
    available upon request.
    

    The National  Football  League commisoner's office has release its
    report  (after sitting on it for 3 weeks while they issued rulings
    about  ending  a  suspension  for drug use). The report blasts the
    team  (players  and  management),  and  fines various people about
    $70,000.  Nobody was suspended. Of the fines, $25,000 must be used
    for some sort of training and education about sexual harrasment.

--David

    My personal oppinion is that they should have been brought to court and
    brought up on lewd and lacivious (sp) behavior charges. They got off
    with less then a slap on the wrist. I, for one, am disgusted. Little
    boys who won't grow up and this says they can get away with it. 
    BTW the team was fined $50,000, with $25,000 being used for training
    these guys in something any man over the age of 16 should realize, you
    don't do. What happens to the other $25,000. Pays for the
    investigation? Goes in Tagliabue's pocket? 
    
    Phil, who will not only continue to boycott the Patriots, but that's it
    for watching pro football for me. Just college from now on. This is the
    angriest I've been in a long time.
    

    
    Maybe the goddess watches football -- haven't the Patriots been
    having one of their worst seasons ever?
    
    I, too, wish that the penalties had been greater.  A former sports
    writer who was interviewed on NPR suggested that since Olson was denied
    her livelihood (she's now covering basketball and hockey), the players
    should have received a similar punishment -- suspension for at least a
    game.  But I am pleased that the ruling also addressed the behavior of
    the team owner and that some of the money was earmarked for training in
    the area of media relations.  I hope that someday they decide to keep
    all reporters out of the locker room or at least allow the players time
    to cool off.  
    
    Justine

    
    >Maybe the goddess watches football -- haven't the Patriots been
    >having one of their worst seasons ever?                        
    
	In fact, I believe the game with the Colts (after which several
    	players harrassed Olson), was the ONLY win they've had ALL season.
    	I guess they were overjoyed? :-) It was all downhill from there out.
    
    	The old Patriots are back again... the lamest team in the sport.
    	And I used to live in their home town! :-)
    
    	-Erik 
    

    
    re .162, Justine:
    
    I heard the report on NPR yesterday too.  The thing that I remember
    most that was mentioned was this:  We (as a society) don't expect
    pro ballplayers to conform to the same standards that ordinary people
    are expected to.  We let them get away with all kinds of stuff in
    public that most people can't - scratching their crotches, for
    instance, and generally acting like pigs.  The NPR reporter said she
    expects the Patriots will appeal the ruling because they're not used
    to being told to act like normal human beings.
    

    My understanding  is  that  the team will pay the fine and "try to
    put  this  behind  them" (in other words, ignore the whole thing),
    but  the  players  who were fined will fight the fine. The largest
    fine was 2% of the player's annual salary.

    The penalties  aren't nearly harsh enough, but at least there were
    some penalties.

--David

    
    re .162 
    
    << What happens to the other $25,000.
    
    It is given to charities.  
    
    

    Since there is a discrepency about the validity of my entry (.167),
    shoot, my whole person......
    
    I have requested it be deleted by a MOD 'cause I cannot.
    
    

    me too, Al
    
    
    				herb
    

    thanks guys

The following article is offered here without permission from the publisher.  
    
    The author/columnist is one I generally disagree with violently.  The way 
this column started, I thought, "Oh, no, there he goes again."  But to 
my surprise, he's making sense this time -- at least in my opinion.  
Read on to see if you agree.


                 Change of Heart on Female Reporters
                            by Mike Royko
     Reprinted without permission from the Sentinel & Enterprise
                            Fitchburg, MA
                          Thursday, Nov. 29


The guilty verdict is in and the big fines have been imposed, but 
countless Americans still believe that a woman reporter's place is not 
in the locker room of a professional football team.

When this furor first erupted, I received mounds of letters from men 
and women.  The majority of them said that female sports reporters 
aren't really looking for news stories; they are shameless hussies who 
want to enter locker rooms to gaze upon the players' sex organs.

At first I disagreed, saying that the players could easily resolve the 
dispute by donning robes or wrapping towels around their waists.  And 
that it was not gentlemanly for someone like Zeke Mowatt to jiggle his 
manly objects in front of a young woman's face.

But now I've reconsidered the entire dispute, and I've decided that 
the female reporters are wrong, and the players have been done an 
injustice.

What changed my mind was a conversation I had with Bubba "Norbert" 
Lurch, the all-pro mauler and noted thumper.

Bubba said that allowing women in the locker room is not the worst 
indignity that football players suffer.

"It's bad," he said, "having the girlie reporters peeking over their 
notebooks at my masculine adornments.  But what's even worse is when 
we have to go in the hospital.

"As you know, a lot of us get injured playing football.  And before 
our careers are over, the majority of us have to undergo one kind of 
surgery or another.

"But do you know what happens when we go into the hospital?  We have 
to take off our clothes, that's what.  And do you know who works in 
hospitals?  Women.  Just look around and you'll see that most of the 
nurses are women.  And now you're even getting a lot of doctors who 
are women.

"The last time I was hospitalized, a nurse came into my room and said 
she had to give me a shot.  I asked her where.  She said in my 
backside.

"Well, I knew what she was up to.  So I said: 'You shameless tart.  
You just want to do that so you can look at my magnificently muscled 
buttocks.'

"So she called the head nurse, who insisted that I submit to the 
indignity of having my nude backside scrutinized by a woman.  But I 
told her that she was nothing but a hussy, too, and I refused.  I 
said: 'What kind of women are you, working in a hospital just so you 
can look at a man's buttocks?'  She said: 'It's part of our job.'  I 
said: 'A likely story.'  And I refused to let them gawk at my bottom.  
They finally brought in a male doctor who gave me the shot.  Of 
course, I made him take an oath that he wasn't gay.

"But that wasn't the end of it.  When it came time for me to undergo 
surgery, I saw the surgical team, and it was shocking.  In addition to 
the nurses, there was a woman doctor.  She was the one who puts you 
under.

"I said: 'I refuse to go through with this if there are any women in 
the operating room.'

"They said: 'Don't be ridiculous.  Of course there will be women in 
the operating room.  So what?'

"And I told them: 'How am I to know that while I am under the 
anesthetic, totally helpless, defenseless, and oblivious, that this 
woman doctor or the nurses will not be sneaking furtive glances at my 
manly parts?'

"Well, the doctors got upset and said: 'Look, bozo, the women are not 
interested in looking at your reproductive organs; they are there to 
do their job.'

"I said, 'Hah.  I've heard that one before.  That's what those female 
sports reporters say, too.  But I'm wise to all of you.'

"So I think it's a terrible shame.  Every day there are thousands of 
men in hospitals, with nurses and lady doctors gawking at them.  I 
sure wouldn't let my daughters grow up to do such lewd work.  Maybe 
I'm just old-fashioned, but my old mom never did anything like that."

But didn't she change your diapers, Bubba?

"I forgot about that.  See?  You can't trust nobody."

    before anybody else reacts to .-1...
    
    how i feel is that is a message for all men. I am intellectually aware
    that if the shoe doesn't fit we shouldn't wear it, and i believe the
    shoe doesn't fit me
    but it really doesn't seem to help

    re: .172
    

    Somebody wondered about my motivation for the last reply. This was my
    answer to him ...
    
    
    The column describes very oafish men, it is a caricature.
    I ,perhaps hypersensitively, felt that the motivation for posting the
    article as a reply is suspect. I felt that she was using it as a metaphor
    for all men.

    When I felt my anger, I felt it might be a good idea to try to defuse the
    anger I anticipated from others.

    				herb

    
    	RE: .172
    
    	:-), too!
    

    I got a kick out of it too. Moreso for the comparison of hospital
    personnel to sports reporters. :-)
    
    John

	I thought 401.172 was hilarious. :-)
        
	re 401.173,
        
>>    before anybody else reacts to .-1...
>>    
>>    how i feel is that is a message for all men. I am intellectually aware
>>    that if the shoe doesn't fit we shouldn't wear it, and i believe the
>>    shoe doesn't fit me
>>    but it really doesn't seem to help
        
        I used to not like generalizations that, because they
        lacked the "standard disclaimers", wrongly included me. 
        I'd read the particular remarks about some group to which
        I happen to belong and I'd think, resentfully, "that's
        not me".  But I'm disgusted by the trashing that this
        conference is taking at the hands of a few people who
        seem to be using that as their excuse. I see their
        actions and I think, "that's not me, either". So now, a
        random missing disclaimer in here doesn't bother me.  I
        guess that psychologically, resenting it would be like
        lowering myself to the level of some of the attacks I've
        seen, and my mind refuses to do that.  So to paraphrase a
        quote I saw earlier today...if the shoe doesn't fit,
        don't step in it. :-)
        
        Dan

    For those who think it's important to ascribe "feminist agenda" motives
    to every note entered in this conference, have at my .172 and enjoy
    yourselves.  For the rest of you, I hope you get a chuckle out of it
    (like I did) and go on with the rest of your day just a bit lighter for
    the laughter.
    
    Karen

    re 401.179
    
    <For those who think it's important to ascribe "feminist agenda" motives
                   ^^^^^
    <to every note entered in this conference, have at my .172 and enjoy
    <yourselves.  For the rest of you, I hope you get a chuckle out of it
    <(like I did) and go on with the rest of your day just a bit lighter for
    <the laughter.


    In .173, I said...
    >before anybody else reacts to .-1...
    >how i feel is that is a message for all men. I am intellectually aware
           ^^^^
    >that if the shoe doesn't fit we shouldn't wear it, and i believe the
    >shoe doesn't fit me
    >but it really doesn't seem to help

    and in .175 I said...
    >The column describes very oafish men, it is a caricature.
    >I ,perhaps hypersensitively, felt that the motivation for posting the
                                  ^^^^
    >article as a reply is suspect. I felt that she was using it as a metaphor
                                      ^^^^
    >for all men.

    I used the word FELT 3 times and I did not use the work THINK once.
    Please also note that I used the past tense. If I had been presenting
    it as something I considered factual, I would at least have used the
    present tense; indeed I almost certainly would have used the word
    'think' or perhaps 'believe'

    The closest i came to the word 'think' was when I said 'intellectually
    aware'. And in *that* context I was 'con' the ridicule applying to me.

    
    			sign me
    	not one who imputes 'feminist agenda' motives to every note
    			herb