Conference turris::womannotes-v3

         Nancy DC,
         
         Choosing to be childless in this society *is* still looked at
         askance.  If you choose not to have children, it is, by many
         people, still seen as a selfish decision.
         
         I knew by the time I was 16 that I never wanted kids.  I
         didn't like them when I was one and I still did not care for
         them by the time I was a teen-ager.  I never felt any 
         maternal yearnings.  In fact, to be honest, most of the time
         I simply can't stand kids!  When I told my mother, at 16,
         that I was pretty sure I never wanted children, she said it
         was probably the best decision I had ever made.
         
         This might not be so strange sounding, but at the time I
         looked to be their only hope for grandchildren!  
         
         I just knew, and she did also, that I would be a bad mother.
         I probably would have been an abusive mother.  Kids really
         drive me up the wall.
         
         When I was older -- in my twenties -- my feelings did not 
         change.  I knew I did not want children, and was lucky 
         enough to have a man fall in love with me who also did not
         want any more children.  (I did not know this when first we
         talked of getting married, so I know this was not the 
         reason I loved him.)  I was a Catholic at the time, so our
         interviews with the priest were a little tense.  When the
         priest asked if I would deny my husband children if he
         wanted them, I had to weasel around it by saying that we 
         agreed that neither of us wanted any.
         
         When I was 24, and had been married a little less than a 
         year, I went to my gynecologist (a man I had never met
         before), and said "I don't want kids.  Fix me!"  or words
         to that effect.   I explained that my husband did not 
         want children either, and that with my family's medical
         history, it was probably not a good idea to over-populate
         the world with Noonans.
         
         I really lucked out.  The gynecologist made a very token
         protest, requested a joint consultation with my husband
         and me, proved to his satisfaction that I was not going
         behind my husband's back, and performed the surgery.  I have
         never regretted the decision.  My husband and I are no longer
         together, and I don't foresee myself ever getting remarried.  
         
         I'll tell you this, however: any man I do get involved with 
         is not going to see me as any baby machine!
         
         I was surprised by the amount of flack I got from people, 
         however, especially people whose business my life was not!
         
         
         Sometimes it was downright stupid: "Children drive you crazy?
         Oh, but it's different when they are your own!!!"  Right.
         That's why women are in prison for beating their children,
         sometimes to death.
         
         Sometimes it was so foolish as to be laughable:  "You don't 
         want children?  Well, that's really selfish of you! (?)  
         You'll be sorry when you're older, and you don't have any one 
         to take care of you!"  Honest to goodness, this last was said
         by one woman, all in the same breath!  Give me a break.
         
         Anyway, I'm 33 now, and have never yet felt the ticking of a
         biological clock.  I have never been able to really 
         understand the rapture pregnant women and their mates seem to 
         be in when they are pregnant.  In fact, as I get older the 
         thought of actually giving birth is enough to make me cross 
         my legs and wince. (*8
         
         I am not a YUPPIE; I still don't understand the concept.  I 
         am a flower child from way back, who is just about making it.  
         My reasons for not wanting children have nothing to do with 
         my lifestyle being crimped.
         
         I'm not a Roman Catholic anymore, so that makes it easier.
         
         I am a Quaker, and sometimes I feel odd because these are 
         such family oriented people who really look upon their 
         children as a joyful responsibility (if that makes sense).  
         However, never once has that feeling of oddness been 
         generated by anyone other than myself.  In fact, I find it 
         very ironic that such family focused, child focused, people 
         are the most *non*-judgmental of all!  Ah, life is fun.
         
         Anyway.  I didn't mean to ramble so, but this is a subject 
         near to my heart, and one that is not aired in a 
         non-judgmental way often enough.  I just hope that whatever 
         decision is reached, it is well considered.  Having a child 
         because you are pressured is, IMHO, wrong.  It will certainly 
         not do the child any good.
         
         E Grace
    

    as many of the folks reading this know, I am a mom and glad of it; and
    I say there is only one good reason to decide to have kids:
    
    Because you want to!
    
    Note I said "decide to"; accidents happen, and if you are uncertain now
    then I hope your birth control method never fails.
    
    You sound ambivalent; from your wording (I boldly infer) it sounds like
    you want children but are trying to convince yourself that you don't,
    and that your husband is quite clear that he does not.  There are good
    reasons to want 'em and not want 'em, but every child deserves to be
    wanted by at least two parents.
    
    So, unlike many topics here, this basenote has been around for close to
    four hours and no replies from women who choose not to raise children!
    Since my choice was otherwise, I'm not qualified to supply the advice
    Nancy has asked for.  I know you're out there -- I've worked with some
    of you -- so go to it!
    
    Sara
    

    oops, E Grace, you sneaked in a reply ahead of me.  Stet that last
    paragraph!
    
    Sara
    

    
    E Grace has stated my position (I'm another "no children ever" person)
    more eloquently than I could hope to, so I won't reiterate what she has
    said.  I will add some things to it, however.
    
    o Choosing to not have children need not mean that you are not a
      caring, nurturing, even *maternal* person.  I've spent weeks awake
      every 2 hours feeding baby birds with a paintbrush, and no one can
      tell me that is not nurturing.  I *do* know that I don't have what it
      takes to be a parent.  With birds that reach adulthood in anywhere
      from 3 months to 3 years, I can cope.  With a child of my own, full
      time, until s/he reaches adulthood, I suspect that those nurturing
      tendencies would, over time, for me, turn into abusiveness,
      controlling, domineering behavior.  And I'd be miserable.  Best to
      stick with birds for me, and that's ok.  The bottom line here is not
      to be afraid of exercising your nurturing abilities (if they exist,
      in whatever form they exist, in whatever fashion satisfies you) just 
      because you are not raising children.
    
    o Choosing not to have children does *NOT* mean that there can be no
      children in your life.  *Sometimes*  I like being around children. 
      I just don't want one full time!  Trust me, they are easy to borrow
      :-)  Most people who are parents of young children are delighted to
      find someone who will willingly watch their child while they take a
      night off.  Most of my friends with children are also *more* than
      willing to bring their children visiting so that the little darlings
      can trash someone else's home for a change.  You can also volunteer
      for Big Brother/Sister programs, scout troups and school groups often
      need a spare hand or three, the choices are endless.  Just because
      you don't have children of your own doesn't mean you have no
      influence on the next generation.  And it doesn't preclude having
      children as friends and influences in your life.
    
    
    						/Rita
    

    Thankyou all for your supportive replies.  As Rita noted, I AM
    quite ambivalent about the issue.  I am sure that if my husband
    wanted children I would have them now.  I also agree that a
    child deserves two parents if that's possible.  Don't misunderstand,
    I think that single parents can do a fantastic job raising children,
    I just think that if two parents are there they should both want
    the children.
    
    As far as nuturing goes - and I think you're wonderful to help birds
    like that - I breed scottish folds which are those cute cats with the
    ears that fold down making them look like owls.  I currently have 8
    adults (some are shelter cats and x-strays) and 7 kittens in the
    house.  I can think of nothing nicer than a warm furry body after a
    long hard day.  
    
    My sister recently gave birth to the first child in our family and
    I look forward to babysitting (starting this Saturday).  It was
    very reassuring to have it pointed out to me that I CAN influence
    the next generation even tho I don't have my own children and that
    is a very valid contribution. Since my sister and brother-in-law 
    are not really pet people, I hope I can teach my nephew to love 
    all animals and to respect all life.  One of my favorite quotes is:
    
    "Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as important to 
    the child as it is to the caterpillar."
    
    
    But I digress......
    
    Anyway, I am finding it very reassuring to know that for whatever
    reason, I am not alone in choosing not to have children.  That is
    what I needed.
    
    Thanks
      Nancy DC

    
    lauren does not want children at this time and i don't particularly
    want them either. she resents the pressure put on people to have
    children. she also feels that having kids would disturb rather than
    enhance her life. i tend to agree. we both feel absolutely that
    one should not have kids unless one is very serious about making
    a commitment to being a good parent.
    

    i can relate to this one....i'm 24 and planning on getting married
    within two years, my fiance nor i want any children...someone did
    say it was selfish....may i ask selfish of who??  scott and i 
    want certain things for ourselves and if we had children and 
    didn't/couldn't do what we wanted, we may regreat it later and take 
    it out on the children, why should we do that when they didn't ask 
    to come into this world.
    
    candy
      
    

    re .7 'Selfish' as a put-down comes from an ethics that not
    everybody buys.
    
    "(T)he exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word 
    "selfishness" is: concern with one's own interests. This concept
    does _not_ include a moral evaluation." Ayn Rand
    
    
    

    If anyone wants to see real nastiness on this issue, check out SOAPBOX
    topic 117, childless parents.
    
    "I feel so sorry for those who don't want children.  They are missing
    out on the greatest joy in life..."
    
    Not my greatest joy, thank you.
    
    Lisa

    re .10, I read part of that, Lisa.  I thought Boris told you to stay
    away from us man hating feminists who have twisted your mind?  But,
    here you are back here again! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    How unusual, here I go, about to defend Boris. ;-)
    
    I didn't read him as nasty, merely, as attempting to be condescending.
    (Of course, no one can condescend to one unless one permits it, so his
    attempt was never much to worry about.)  When he tries to be nasty, its
    very plain.  The sneer just wasn't there this time.  He really does
    think you'll change your mind.
    
    Yeah, Lorna, he told her to stay away from us man-haters.  Hm, thrice
    in one week I've been accused of that! :-o!
    
    DougO

It's just as easy to make a case that people who *want* children, and especially
those who want more than 2 (i.e. those who validate Malthus), are selfish, since
they place their pleasure in children over the good of the planet.

So don't let the "selfish" claims bother you - they're easily reflected.

    See also:
    
    Womannotes-V1
    146 - do you even want children?
    156 - do you like being around children?
    784 - choosing not to have children
    
    Womannotes-V2
    947 - children - to have or not to have
    
    Human_relations
    360 - opting for no children
    
    -Jody
    

    
    To decide not to have children?  This is not a selfish decision - we
    decided to have two children - they are wonderful, confusing, difficult, 
    moody, brilliant, stupid, pleasant, aggravating, and ours.  But the
    decision was selfish we wanted our very own children (of couse, if I
    had known that they would become teenagers someday....).
    The decision should be yours, though, and your husband's.
    
    As to getting "fixed" - my OB/GYN was ademant that it is far less risky
    medically for the male partner to get a vasectomy than for a female to 
    have a tubal ligation.  (of course this was more than 15 years ago).
    My hubby agreed, and so we became a sterile couple via that path.
    
    -m
       

    I have never wanted children, but I love animals.  A prerequisite for
    men I dated was that they also not want children and like animals.  I
    have now been married for over 18 years and currently have 3 horses and
    9 dogs.  We are extremely happy without children.  My husband and I
    have more time for each other (inspite of having to take care of the
    animals).  We never got called selfish, but my parents did hint an
    awful lot about being grandparents.  But I'm not about to have children
    just for them!  After about 5 years, we were left in peace.  If I had
    to do it all over again, I'd do it exactly the same way.  So far I
    haven't met any childless-by-choice couple who has regretted their
    decision.  We do get visits from our niece and nephew (and their
    parents) and it always amazes me how we have to schedule everything
    around them.
    
    Send mail if you have more questions or need more support!
    
    						Jan

    If I may augment Jody's reference list, quark::mennotes #465, started 
    by Charles Haynes, explored the question of having children when one 
    is not married.  It presented an opportunity for us to focus on the
    differences between the two situations, and highlighted some of the
    important questions with unusual perspectives.
    
    DougO

A thought to remember:

If you decide *not* to have children now, and in 5 or 10 years decide that
was the wrong decision, you can change your mind.

If you decide you *do* want to have children now, and in 5 or 10 years
decide that was the wrong decision, you *cannot* change your mind.

Even if more than 5 to 10 years go by, and you feel you are too old to
safely have a baby, there are other options such as adoption.

D!

>Even if more than 5 to 10 years go by, and you feel you are too old to
>safely have a baby, there are other options such as adoption.
>
>D!
    
    It's not easy to adopt a child these days. It can take lots of money.
    It can take lots of time. It can take lots of patience having well
    meaning child-advocate people snooping around your house asking very
    personal questions. Heaven help you if you've got any skeletons in
    your closet. 
    
    Adoption is perfect solution for many people but it's just not easy.
    
    Kate 
                                                               

    re: adoption - I'm under the impression that there is a law that
    precludes folks over 40 from adopting infants in this country.
    since I'm 35.5 now and adoption takes 5-10 years, I don't think
    that's an option.  (I'm adopted myself, by the way)
    
    re: changing your mind - yes, that's a very important point and
    one my husband made as well.  Its hard enough if you take in a
    cat or dog and it doesn't work out.  Can you imagine what would
    happen if you decide to put your child up for adoption after
    6 months because it didn't work out  ;-)  
    
    We are looking into a vasectomy at this point because we're having
    ALOT of trouble with birth control now.  I'd like to see Jack
    put some sperm samples "on ice" in case we decide to have children
    later.  I know its not 100% guaranteed, but it seems the best
    option now.  
    
      Nancy

    I have two daughters in their 20s, one married, one single. Neither one
    wants to have children.
    
    That's fine with me. It's their choice. There are enough physical,
    emotional, and financial demands on parents. People should have
    children only when they want them.
    
    Bruce
    
    
    
    headaches

    I agree that society puts too much pressure on people to have children. 
    It should be a personal choice and people who choose not to have them
    should not be made to feel selfish, etc.
    
    However, I find it ironic that many young people seem to give as a
    reason for not wanting children the fact that they are uncomfortable
    with or don't like to be around babies or little kids.  Children are
    babies and little kids for a very few short years, and in no time at
    all turn into teenagers from hell, which may be a *good* reason for not
    wanting kids!!  
    
    I love babies and little kids and I always knew that I wanted to have
    at least one child (actually I can't remember when I didn't want a
    daughter), but now that I find myself the mother of a cold, moody,
    rude, distainful teenager, who appears to want all the privileges of
    adulthood without any of the responsibilities (like *paying* for
    things!), for the first time I find myself wondering....if I had it to
    do over again, would I?  I don't know.  Probably.  Being a parent can
    be hell but I can't even imagine a life without her by now, even when
    she does act like a bitch sometimes, and I would have hated to miss out
    on the time when she was a baby and a toddler.  She was a *cute* baby
    and little girl.  When she's nasty to me, though, I sometimes wonder
    how much money I've spent on her in my lifetime....all the clothes,
    toys, books, records/tapes/CD's, movies, rock concerts, meals....and I
    think of what else I could have done with the money.  I'd like to see
    all the things I've ever bought her piled into a mountain, show it to
    her and then make her really appreciate it!!! :-)
    
    But, all in all, I guess I'd still have *one* kid if I had it to do
    over again.  I'm glad I stopped with one,though, and when she was small
    I had a lot of people tell me I was selfish for not having another one. 
    I'm glad now that I didn't.  
    
    I've never been afraid of being an abusive parent though.  *Abused*
    parent is more like it!
    
    Lorna
     

    
    Actually, I didn't mean to imply that Boris is nasty, but he does
    assume I have the mental capacity of a five year old.
    
    There are much worse, especially those that start quoting the Bible
    whenever the topic turns to reproduction and parenting.
    
    (Not meant to be offensive to reugular church goers, I only mean
    fundamentalist types)
    
    Lisa

    in re Lisa :-)
    
    I know what you mean!
    
    Bonnie

    AAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
    
    
    excuse me, who is Boris?
    
    E Grace

    It takes a lot to become a GOOD parent. Not many people can become good
    parents to their kids and that's the reason why there are so many
    "unwanted" kids, so many problems with children abuse, and so on, and
    on. Parenthood is something very serious and implies lots of
    responsibility. (long term - forever...) so it is better not to be a
    parent at all than being a bad parent, that is clear.  I respect the
    decision of not becoming a parent if we don't have what it takes to be
    a good one.  Think on what YOU believe and follow your path... with no
    pressures from either side, just your own.  You'll never regret your
    decision.  Best luck.  Ana

    re .24 'Boris' is an active noter in PEAR::SOAPBOX
    
    kit KP7 at your peril :-)

    
    And with that last pointer in .26, could we please stop talking about
    noters from other conferences?  No offense to you, Lisa.  I can
    understand wanting to vent about your treatment there in this file.
    I just think we have plenty to say to each other about this without
    going down a rathole about what folks in another conference said.
    
    Justine

>    re: adoption - I'm under the impression that there is a law that
>    precludes folks over 40 from adopting infants in this country.
    
    Nancy, 
    
    There's no nationwide law.  It's the entrenched policy of most
    public and private adoption agencies, and that can be even harder
    to fight, but it doesn't have the force of national law behind it. 
    State laws, of course, vary drastically, and I imagine some states
    do have such a requirement.  
    
    As the mother of three, I can say emphatically that no one who
    doesn't want kids should have them.  Period.  (I think also that
    many fine people who would make fine parents are misestimating
    both their abilities and the nature of the parenting role, but
    that's an aside.)
    
    I've been a single parent, and I've been part of a happy marriage,
    and I can say that it's possible to have a healthy happy family
    either way.  But I don't think it would be possible to have a
    psychologically healthy family in an environment where one parent
    wanted kids and the other parent didn't.  Some of the worst
    damage, psychological as well as phsyical,  I've seen done to kids
    was done by parents who were physically present in the home but
    obviously resentful of the children they felt fate had forced on
    them.
    
    There are many ways to become involved with children besides
    raising them yourself.  Being a Big Sister, a foster parent, or
    a Scout leader come to mind, but I'm sure there are more.  Church
    youth groups are always looking for counsellors and assistants. 
    So are non-religious youth groups. 
    
    --bonnie

I adore children.  I enjoy interacting with them -- playing, philosophical
discussions, watching them figure things out.

I am childless and likely to remain so.  I was briefly a parent, but 
circumstance intervened.  Since then, I've been through periods where I was
childless by choice to postpone, then by default, and now by choice in fact.

By temperment and inclination, I am better suited to being a friend/mentor 
than a parent.  I have maintained this all along.

At present I have two nieces [age 4] who categorically refuse to acknowledge
that I might be related to them.  Kate tells people I'm her 'magical angel.'
Carly tells people I'm her friend. "Annie is NOT my aunt!!!" [I never 
fostered this attitude and was quite surprised by it.]

I need not give birth to a child to nurture it.  Although I confess to being
selfish; my childlessness is not a manifestation of this aspect of my
character.

I've past the stage where the pressure upsets me.  At worst it irritates me; but
for the most part, I feel that those applying the pressure are too narrow in
their views on this subject for me to engage in discussion about it.

  Annie

    
    I also, chose to be childless.  However, I'm 23, my husband is 25 and people keep 
    telling us that we'll change our minds.  I wouldn't mind giving birth, well actually
    I'd suffer through it, if someone else would just raise it!  I like kids, for about
    5 hours.  Then, they start to bother me.  My husband is worse than I am.  He just
    doesn't enjoy children.  We have agreed to never have children unless both of us
    REALLY REALLY REALLY want to.  This is not a cutsie, tiny baby we're talking about.
    Kids are with you, if only in your mind, for the rest of your life! 
    I'm afaid that I'd be a neurotic parent.  I'd be SO worried about stereoptyping
    them.  Forcing a boy to be tough and a girl to follow.  As you can see,
    I've thought alot about this.  We just got married 4 months ago and every
    Tom, Dick and Harry wants to know when I'm going to give birth.  Ugh!!
    
    My cousin's wife tried to tell me that I'm selfish.  Meanwhile, she constantly says
    that the only reason she married my cousin was because she was pregnant.  When their
    daughter grows up, she's going to feel SO guilty!  (This girl is 7 now)
    
    If you don't want children, don't have them.  I think people had lots of kids before
    because :
    	1. women thought they "had" to.  So many men say they won't marry a woman who
    won't have kids.
    	2.  They just didn't know what they were getting into.
    	3.  They hadn't invested years in working for a degree and a career.
    
    I hope you are happy with any decision that you make.
    Rachael
    

    
    Looks like the concensus here is that if you want children - go ahead
    and have them.  But if you DON'T want them, please don't have them.
    
    Either way, you make the right choice.
    
    Just one btw - I hear a lot of noise about how long it takes to adopt a
    child, and how expensive it is.   Does it take longer to adopt than to
    concieve and give birth (generally speaking)?  Does it cost more?
    
    Actually, I have no experience in adoption, but I believe it might take
    longer.  I think I doubt that it costs significantly more, though.
    
    -m
    -m

    I don't think that I want children either. People have mentioned
    that you may regret it later. I do often wonder if this is true.
    I am 30 now, and I recently read that sterility increases 50%
    after the age of 30. When I see some of the problems that friends
    have gone through in order to get pregnant (like in vitro fertilization),
    I hope that I won't change my mind later and have problems getting
    pregnant. But then I wouldn't have children just because 
    "you might regret it later"
    Carol

    no path in life guarantees immunity from regrets
    
    belongs in 'musical quotes':
    
    "that's just the way it is
    "some things will never change"
    
    

    tho it wasn't this way for me, a year is what I've heard as the
    "average" time to conceive (from the time birth control is stopped) for
    women aged 30.
    
    cost of conceiving/delivering your own vs adoption - again, the former
    is much cheaper assuming no complications.  Various infertility tests
    and treatments are reputed to be extremely costly.  And then, if they
    succeed and a pregnancy results, it is usually treated as a high-risk
    pregnancy -- monitored more closely, as is the actual labor and
    delivery.
    
    so it depends.
    
    

    
    What do you do if you are with someone who you love and they don't want
    to have any children, or they are unsure about it, but you feel you do? 
    Is there a way to work this out without having to give that person up? 
    Should one take the chance with this person or should the relationship 
    be looked at more carefully?
    
    A dilemma.
    
    Mary
    

Nancy DC!!!!  Do you mind?!?!  Really, i don't read Soapbox, I didn't read
about the kitten, and I don't want to hear it!!  You said that you wouldn't
even open the conference because you had to read about that?  Well if you
felt so strongly about it, then why did you feel the need to make all of
*us* read about such a horror?!?!

Sheesh!  I strongly request that you rewrite your note (.34) to get rid of
that disgustingness, or at least put it behind a form-feed.

D!

    re .36 I'd think about setting a reasonable amount of time,
    maybe a year, for that person to decide yes-or-no on the issue, 
    using the time to decide what I'd do based on that decision. 
    There are three possibilities :
    
    They decide 'no' and you dissolve the relationship.
    They decide 'no' and you maintain the relationship.
    They decide yes.
    
    The real decision is between the first two alternatives. Is
    being with this person more-or-less important than having
    a child ? Could you be as happy with another person and
    a child ? More happy ? Less ? Remember that love is not
    enough, you need compatability, too. 

    
    .38    Thank you, these are all the same questions that have
           been going back and fourth and sometimes it puts a
           strain, which is the hardest part, because of the
           caring and friendship that is strong there.
    
           As women get older, does it seem to some like a waste
           of their time to be with someone who may not change
           in a year or so or has no future intentions about
           how they feel?
    
           I know that sounds funny, but many people always say
           to me that if they can't make up their mind in a year
           about marriage, children, etc. then they never will.
    
    Mary
    

    re .34, regarding the kitten, I'd kill anyone who did that to one of my
    cats regardless of the consequences, as most people who know me well
    realize.
    
    However, I don't know why you say "any idiot can make a baby."  We all
    know that isn't true when there are so many people who have problems
    with infertility.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .30
    
    >>However, I don't know why you say "any idiot can make a baby."
    
    Perhaps the word "may" should be substituted for "can"?
    
    
    Unfortunately, the kitten abomination *was* a news item.  Fortunately,
    the sick #$%&&%#$#@^^*((*&%%& was tried and convicted.
    
    E Grace

    re .38, .36, .39...
    I agree with you that setting a time limit is probably in order.
    But I'd keep what it is to yourself - if they know they're facing
    a deadline, they'll feel pressured into making a decision and
    may not feel comfortable with the decision they reach.

    I've heard that saying about "if they can't reach a decision within
    X amount of time, they never will".  The funny thing is, the X is
    different almost every time I hear it: I think I've heard everything
    between one year and five.  (I'm convinced that what it really means
    is: it's time for a DECISION now!)  In this case (as in most), "never 
    making up your mind" really means "no".

    I don't think anyone can tell you what to do here.  I guess that the
    real question to ask is "how do I feel about giving up my freedom
    to make this decision for myself?".

    re: when one partner wants something and the other doesn't
    
    Wow, what a toughie . . . but the first thing that comes to mind
    is that no matter what either person thinks now, they could change
    their mind in the future.  Life doesn't come with guarantees, and
    a healthy person can change to cope with reality.  And that
    applies to both halfs of the partnership -- and I would suspect
    that it's as likely for the partner who wants children to discover
    they want to devote their life to building a billion-dollar
    business as it is for the partner who doesn't want children to
    hear the biological clock ticking and decide they do, after all,
    want to hear the patter of little feet.
    
    For me, a lot would depend on how the person who didn't want the
    children treated the other person's desire for children.  A male
    friend of mine desperately wants children; he married his
    long-time sweetheart with the hope they'd eventually have a
    family.  Well, it's now eventually and then some, and she still
    doesn't want a family, and he still does -- only she tells him,
    "Don't be silly, men don't have a biological clock, you just want
    to prove you're really a man."  (Which isn't true, by the way --
    he's a gentle, paternal person who would make a great mother.)  I
    think he's going to file for divorce soon . . . 
    
    And no matter which way anyone decides about this issue, or about
    having children or not having them, there's one thing that's
    guaranteed -- there WILL be times, whether fleeting or longer,
    when you do regret the choice you made and wish you had taken the
    other path.  Spending a week down in the dumps wondering whether
    you should just pack and leave to write novels in a garret in
    Paris, writing to the kids once a week, doesn't mean that you made
    the wrong choice.  Or likewise wandering around Paris feeling
    lonely because you don't have any cute dimpled arms and diapers
    waiting for you doesn't mean you made the wrong choice by deciding
    not to have kids. 
    
    --bonnie

re. the relationship or the child

First, people do change their minds.

Second, waiting for a mind change to make a decision will make you crazy!!!

It's a crap-shoot, this future possibilities business.

My advice would to be set your priorities based upon today's reality as if it
were going to last forever.

If the thought of a childless future leaves you despairing, you must do
take some action. Either reprioritising, or negotiating within the relationship
to set deadlines or expectation, or getting out of the relationship.

Sometimes accidents happen [real and fabricated] and there are no guarantees
on the outcome of these either.  I've seen relationships dissolve around
unplanned/unwanted pregnancies when one or both partners were dealing from
an absolute position.

  Annie

    (This is reply .34 rewritten at the request of another reader)
    
    re: adoption - yes it DOES take alot longer than conceiving.  The
    latter takes only 9 months.  Adoption takes 5-10 years!  Even back
    in 1955 when I was adopted my parents waited 2 years for me.  It
    amazes me that the adoption agencies research prospective families
    so thoroughly, but any idiot can make a baby.  well, that's another
    note, I'm sure.
    
    re: Expense - I have no direct experience either, but I've been told
    the cost is around $7k to adopt.  I think that's probably higher
    than the medical costs to "do it yourself".  Anyone have more accurate
    figures?
     
    These replies are great.  And I really appreciate the supportive
    nature of all of them.  I wasn't sure what to expect when I put that
    basenote in.  
      Thanks
      Nancy DC
    P.S. the following concerns a story in SOAPBOX and is pretty upsetting,
    especially to animal lovers.  read at your own risk.
    
    
    
    
    
re: SOAPBOX - after having someone put the story about the 19
    year old killing and cooking his roommates 2 month old kitten
    under 'THINGS TO LIKE TODAY' I wouldn't open that notesfile
    for anything!!!!!!!!!  That kind of abuse I don't need.
    

    re: .36 - Yes, that's our situation too and the situation of 
    another friend of mine.
    
    In our situation, I've decided to wait for the moment.  I'm not
    willing to risk ending up with a divorce because I forced my
    husband to have children.  Lets face it here, there's no 
    compromize possible.  You either have the kid or you don't.
    I had to decide what I can live with and right now, its many cats,
    a new nephew and no children of my own.
    
    In my friend's case - she was faced with either have a baby or 
    get divorced because her husband felt very strongly about having
    children.  She decided to have children even tho she felt very
    ambivalent about the issue.  
    
    In my case, another friend, who is divorced, told me I had to 
    decide if I wanted to be a single parent.  Because, if I forced
    my husband into having children I could very likely end up divorced.
    I might not, he might be thrilled to have kids once they're here,
    but that's a big chance to take.  I don't want to take that chance.
    
    Its a real tough situation - I know in my case it is - made more
    difficult because it just isn't possible to compromize  (At least
    not that I've figured out :-)
    

    If you truly don't want kids, don't have them.  Not everyone should.
    
    That said, I've got a couple of thoughts to add to the discussion.  I
    don't like infants and toddlers.  'Adorable babies', even my own,
    aren't my thing.  My son wound up in daycare *even before I was
    working* because I didn't have the faintest idea how to cope with him
    on a full-time basis, and it was great for both of us.  But I wouldn't
    trade my 17-year-old hulk for all the tea in China.  Mom was right,
    kids get better as they get older :-).  Different parents do better
    with different age groups, and you learn to deal with the parts you
    aren't as good at.
    
    My brother-in-law didn't want kids.  My sister reached the point where
    she did.  Their 'compromise' was that she went ahead and got pregnant,
    with the understanding that he wanted *nothing* to do with the whole
    experience.  (And she is the primary wage-earner in their family.)  She
    had a girl-friend go to Lamaze classes with her, although he decided
    after the first couple that he'd go and be with her.  The first three
    months after their son's birth, he did nothing for the kid.  Somewhere
    at about that time frame, he started to change his mind.  They now have
    two kids, and he does more of the child-care than she does.  So both
    'compromise' (of a sort) and change are possible.
    
    Alison

    Hi, I'm new to this conference, but I had to put in a reply to this.
    
    I have recently split up with my boyfriend after four years. I was
    always open minded about having kids, but late last year, I felt like
    'the time was right'. Well overall, he agreed, but then changed his
    mind. I was devastated. The trouble was, I was even more adamant to get
    pregnant, because i thought i was right, and that once I was,
    everything would be ok. The saying is so true about 'wanting what you
    can't have'.  Luckily I didn't get pregnant. My judgement was totally
    clouded. I would like kids someday, but not right now. I have always
    said that 'both' of us would want to have them. I feel it is a sharing
    experience.  I was selfish trying to force his hand, but I just so
    wanted to believe that it would make everything right. I was so wrong.
    
    Anyway, whatever you decide, please think it through.
    
    Janet

    
    I guess either decision is a hard one. I feel as I get older that I
    like my life the way it is, with no kids, but try to imagine it with
    them.
    
    M
    
    

    
    
    re .many
    
    I just finished reading every reply except .34 which seems to have
    been deleted.  I hate coming to the discussion late!
    
    re. adoption 
    
    It takes one of three routes typically;
    
    1. Direct state - Cheap, less than $3000.00 however a 5-6 year wait.
    
    2. Identified adoption - Moderatly expensive $9000.00 to $11,000
       and takes about 9 months to a year.  The major drawback is that
       the identified host mother could change her mind after you have
       fallen in love with the child and it may shatter you.  Also
       you must identify, nurture, help and track the birthmother
       yourself, which can be time consuming.
    
    3. Agency adoption - This is the most expensive 15,000 - 25,000
       and typically invloves a 18 - 24 month process.  The two major
       advantages of this approach are that the agencies do all the
       work and you are not told about the child until after the 
       birth parents have legally surrendered custody.  The major
       drawbacks are the money, time and not knowing when your
       baby is coming.
    
    As for the over 40 rule this is typically from a forgein countries
    requirement not a USA one.  For example columbia has a strict age
    and length of marriage rules.
    
    
    My main opinion is that if you don't want children don't have them
    and if you want them don't let anything or anyone stop you from
    having them.
    
    As for a mate who does not want kids.  Use plan B (Keep telling
    them how much it means to you.) for 2 years and then give it up.
    I was one of those who did not want children till my wife 
    convinced me that she REALLY wanted kids.  Eventually I
    decided that our marriage meant more to me than my desire
    not to have children.
    
    Someone mention being heartbroken when a mate said he did
    not want a child after saying yes.  This seems to be a
    normal reaction because when you decide to have a child
    you in effect claim the unborn child.
    
    Gotta go more later.

    RE: Long waits on adoption.
    It is my understanding from another couple who adopted about 10
    years ago, that the long waits for adoptions were for infant
    caucasians.  The adoption agency said that they would have virtually no
    waiting period (6 months) if they choose an older child (5 years or
    older) of any race/nationality.
    
    Debbie

    Debbie
    
    I found that to be the case (short waiting periods) when Don
    and I adopted mixed race and older children.
    
    Bonnie