Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    ... anger...   I am mad after reading that response from your
    soon-to-be-ex-husband.. Sounds like he wants to use your daughter
    to hurt you. If he feels that he can't have anything to do with
    your daughter then he really can't care/love her too much now can he.
    Its going to hurt at first but in the long run you might be better off
    with him far, far, away...

    Rick

    ...and pain. Maybe the sight of your daughter will remind him
    of you, what you had together, and the pain of losing that.
    
    Given this resentment from him, I'd say you're lucky he *doesn't*
    want to play the 'joint custody' game. (Which game can get 
    *viscious*, in my limited experience.)

	My purpose here is hopefully to provide some insight as to what might
be in his mind. My assumption, dangerously, is that some men may think alike
in situations like this. It is a dangerous assumption, please weigh it carefully.

	I've been married about seventeen years now and have three children.
Allison and I have separated twice over the years of our marriage; once for
a night or two and the other time for about a couple of months or so.

	The second time, and the longest, I remained with our house and kept 
the three children and would have kept them had we decided to divorce.

	But it's the first time I want to relate as I feel it MAY (MAY) offer
something concerning your situation.

	When I left that first time I wanted very badly to strike out at Allison
in any way that I could. I told her that I would soon be leaving for California,
where I grew up, and probably not see her and the kids again.She of course was
aghast at this; concerned as you are for the children losing a father they 
loved.

	You know a part of me was convinced that I meant it but I think I really
knew I didn't. These painful, angry times can make one feel so fragmented.
In retrospect I'm convinced now that I would never have broken off completely 
with my children....I loved them then as now.

	The first morning after I'd left the home I visited my children at a
baby sitters and tried to get them to understand what I thought was going on.
I'm ashamed to say now that I raised the possibility in their minds that I
might be leaving them forever (was I trying to use them for leverage?). When
I got into my car after seeing them ...well...I cried like the proverbial
baby. That's when what I was really doing began to hit home...and the shame
of it was a very powerful catalyst for me to do some major pride swallowing.

	Allison and I reconciled that time. Perhaps a large part of her 
willingness to do so was based on my threat...as well as some economic
realities...perhaps laying the foundation for our much longer separation
some years later.Who knows.

	If this seems a possibility give him time...and perhaps gently confront
him with what he's doing. If he's decent he won't want to damage your daughter
even considering all his pain and anger. He's just got to sort it out doesn't
he? The fear of being alone, the sense of rejection, the frustration of feeling
at war with oneself, can make one do some pretty stupid things...he may need to
see that. A gift you can give your daughter here is giving him a graceful way 
out of decisions he's made in angry confusion.

	I hope this helps...it's been a little painful for me to dredge up,
but what you offered in the base note seemed so similar to my situation years
ago.

My best to you,

MAC

    
    
    What a horrible thing to even consider.  Sure the pain is going to be
    there between you and he, but it has nothing to do with your daughter.
    He is not doing this to hurt you, he is doing it because he is a
    selfish person.  Tell him to go and talk to grown women whose father's
    did the exact same thing to them and get the truth from them.
    
    Whether he wants to admit it or not he is doing this for him and no
    one else.  If he chooses to actually take action on it then you truly
    have no choice.  Unfortunately the one who is going to suffer for
    the remainder of her childhood will be your daughter.  She will end
    up resenting him for doing this to her.  
    
    I truly hope his idea is one of anger and he will be able to work this
    out on his own.
    
    Michele

	There's this twisted beast that lives in the breasts of angry men:
it's commonly called pride. Clothe this beast in anger, rejection,confusion
and the like and kiss rationality and decency goodbye. This is the beast you're 
dealing with....watch carefully and you'll see him rear his ugly head.

	Taming him is not done with sharp words that gouge like sticks
or jagged stones or cut the ego like razors; this will just entrench the beast.
Rather hold up the mirror...reflect his image back gently; this more often
causes the beast to diminish and even disappear.

MAC

    What I read into the basenoter's message is about the power struggle 
    going on -- and I think at the moment he feels the *most*
    powerlessness.
    
    If the writer is able to, in love for their daughter, be more gentle
    and less confrontive about this issue with him, I think the results for
    the daughter will be better in the long run.
    
    I've found from my own experience and that of friends that both
    partners in these lose/lose relationships feel utterly powerless and
    assume that the other feels powerful, but it's not true.
    
    Briana

    try finding some intermediary to act as go-between on this one.  The
    husband and wife here are not able to get past their feelings about one
    another -- this is not a put-down of either, just a fact.  Picking that
    impartial 3rd party is hard, since that person must be acceptable to
    both divorcing partners.  My own bias is: not a lawyer.  Either of your
    lawyers immediately comes under suspicion as not impartial, which in
    fact they are not.  Would a cleric do?  Perhaps a professional
    counsellor?  Probably not a mutual friend... unless both don't care
    whether or not they keep that friend...  A social worker?  There is in
    many places a Jewish Family Service, no I don't think you _have_ to be
    Jewish; but there must be similar family support agencies that might
    help.
                    
    Good luck to the basenoter.  If it doesn't work out, get help if
    necessary but get the message to the daughter, over and over, that SHE
    is not responsible for the irrational actions of the adults in her
    life.  People in real life are often not reasonable.  You can't hide
    this fact from kids.  It's awful that your daughter has to be exposed
    to such hostility this young, she should not have to cope with it, but
    I hope that with lots of support both of you -- all of you! -- can make
    it through this.

    Also, please consider, that there are a multitude of ways for you and
    your ex-to-be to *never* see or talk to each other, and still have your
    daughter's father and your daughter have contact.  (The wording there
    is deliberate, BTW.)
    
    I managed this, with joint physical custody (!), for a couple of years. 
    Until tempers had cooled and roles had changed to the point that we
    could talk to each other civilly.  On my side, the first step was to
    always think of this man as "my son's father", rather than "my
    ex-husband".  The second step, which may or may not be practical in
    your case, was that we had no exchange of $ - because we each had the
    kid 1/2 the time, we each had half the expenses (and we started out
    each earning about the same amount).  The third step was that the kid
    was able to get to and from his activities (mostly school) from either
    house.  Each Monday he went to school from one house and came home to
    the other one.  Or the person who picked him up from after-school care
    changed.
    
    Another thing I would do, if at all possible, is get your ex-to-be to tell
    his daughter what he is planning to do, and why.  Just the two of them. 
    And let him deal with the immediate fall-out.
    
    Good luck to all of you.
    
    Alison

    
    
    I think that the basenoter might tell her soon-to-be ex that she's
    upset that he wants to sever ties with the daughter, but I think she
    also needs to be prepared for the fact that he may do it (forever or
    for a while).  It's unfortuate that he's unable to separate the anger
    he feels at his ex from his relationship with his daughter, but
    splitting is a hard thing, and it may be the best he can do right now.
    I hope that he will be able to spend time with his daughter and say
    goodbye, but I worry that the basenoter may be left with having to
    pick up the pieces, and that will be hard.  I think all she can do
    is state her feelings.  
    
    One possibility might be to ask him to see a therapist with you (I hate
    talking about you in third person), with the daughter, or on his own 
    before he actually picks up and moves away.  That might not change his
    mind, but it might make it easier for all of you to deal with this
    loss.  It seems like you're having to do more of your share of
    processing this, because in addition to your own pain, it seems that
    he's leaving you to deal with your daughter's pain all by yourself.  If
    it's possible, you might ask him to at least spend some time reassuring
    her that he loves her but needs some time away.  He says that he has 
    thought this through, but all the time he spent thinking about it, he 
    was also dealing with the end of a primary relationship, so I think that 
    has to have colored his judgement (even though he might think he's thinking
    clearly.)
    
    Be gentle with yourself.  This is a hard thing, and you may not be able
    to influence events...
    
    Justine

re. edp

I believe that the father almost certainly means no harm to his daughter. I have
had friends who expressed similar emotions in the process of emotionally
devastating break-ups. Some even followed through on this harsh course of action
in order to maintain some semblance of personal integration.

I will not call this man wrong to sever contact with his daughter, although I
believe it will cause her incomparable pain.

My judgemental self says that he owes it to his child to make it clear that _he_
is doing this and not leave it to her mother to explain.  The child will have
enough confusion, uncertainty, and pain to deal with in the wake of divorce
and abandonment by her father without having to deal with the additional
doubts of questioning her mother's motives in the explanation.

  Annie

Boggle, boggle.  I just can't believe this.  I read the base note twice
and I cannot come to any conclusion but: your daughter's father does not
love her.  I have never met a parent who doesn't, in some way, love hir
children, but it seems to me this must be the case.  Otherwise I can't
imagine *how* he could decide he didn't want to see her.

Horrible.  But I guess that your daughter is probably better off having
no father than having a father who doesn't love her.

I wouldn't tell her that, though, I think at this stage what you said
about *telling* your daughter that her father loves her is a good idea, it
would probably be terribly, unbelievably traumatic to tell her that her
father doesn't love her.  She will probably come to this conclusion on
her own, though, when she realizes that he doesn't want to see her.

If, contrary to all logic, he *does* love her, I doubt he will be able to
stick to his idea of not seeing her.  It would be just too barbaric.

D!

    Well, it happened to me and my daughter 16 years ago.  He simply
    walked away from us.  I couldn't believe that he would not want
    to continue a relationship with his only, beautiful, 4 year old
    little girl.
    
    He came back last year for her high school graduation.  We had
    not heard anything from him in 15 years.
    
    Today she is establishing a relationship with him, but I suspect
    he will never be "Daddy" to her.  She needs his financial support
    for college but feels guilty asking him (never sent any regular
    child support, presents, or cards when she was growing up).  He
    is trying very hard to 'make up for lost time.'   He now has
    a child by a second marriage too.  My daughter, when speaking to
    her half brother, will say things like, 'YOUR father said such and
    such' without realizing that he was her father first.
    
    My four year old sat and waited for him for 6 months to return.
    We finally moved out of state when I saw that he had no interest
    in her.  I didn't do well at the time explaining anything to her,
    and I think today, under it all, she is a very angry child,
    still waiting for "Daddy."
    
    How do I feel?  I don't know.
    Maia
    

    re .12 D! you're operating from a base of reason. He (the father)
    isn't. The most reasonable person can do totally insane things
    when in pain. The most loyal dog will snap at it's owner when in
    pain. Hurt triggers a 'fight or flight' reflex that simply
    doesn't conform to the norms of behavior. (You don't want to
    be near *me* when I hit my thumb with a hammer.)

    I would suggest that .0 *insist* that the father work this out with
    the daughter himself. She does not own that responsibility. Helping
    the daughter afterwards, yes. But let *him* deal with the consequences
    of his decision.

    My father left us when I was 18. My sister was 16 and my brother 13. He
    didn't leave any ultimatum about not seeing us but defacto that's what
    he did. He was willing to talk to us and see us if we initiated contact
    but would not call us himself. He flat refused to take my brother and
    my brother has never really recovered emotionally. It has colored all
    my relationships with men. These scars last. It seemed he left us so
    easily, that we meant nothing to him.

    Do I think this man means to hurt his daughter? No, I don't believe he
    does. He may even be convincing himself it's best. But it's his pain
    against hers and I think she deserves precedence. Don't attack him
    about this decision but try and let him see the long term consequences.
    We create so much pain for ourselves and the ones we love. There is so
    much I can not understand about why we make these choices in out lives.
    liesl

    on the other side of things, when my mom left us it was MUCH easier for
    me never to have to see her.  yes i love(d) her, but it was terrible
    being torn between love for two people who hated each other.
    
    they did not use us to hurt each other, and they very seldom said nasty
    things about each other when any of us were in earshot, but all three
    of us had this difficulty ...
    
    lee t

    
    
    I would also suggest that this father get in touch with other
    non-custodial fathers.  He will gain alot of insight into what
    he is currently feeling.  Also, he may be able to understand
    that his leaving his daughter will have a very negative impact
    that will affect everything she does during her life.
    
    I do not know what it would feel like to be an abandoned child,
    but I grew up without a father for many years becuase he was
    asked to leave the family residence to to his alcoholism.
    He died 14 years ago, but to this day there are still many things
    in my life that are directly affected by this loss and separation.
    
    
    He really needs to start thinking about his daughter instead of just
    himself.  Afterall, he is divorcing you, not your daughter.
    
    Michele

    Re: .7
    
    The idea of mediation is excellent advice, because it takes the
    advesarial nature of lawyers out of intense emotional discussions and
    allows for rational discourse. 
    
    The National Center for Mediation Education (NCME) is located in
    Annapolis MD and is a private, non-profit national organization whose
    goals are to change the way family conflicts are resolved by providing
    alternatives to the legal process.  They provide public education,
    training mediators, and providing an information and referral service
    on a national basis to make available the names of separation and
    divorce mediators to families in need.  Their telephone number is
    (301)224-3322.
    
    I am a trained paralegal, feminist, and potential mediator (sometime in
    the future!).  My desire through the years has been to find a way to
    serve the interests of women in a concrete way.  I am going to train as
    a mediator to achieve my goals.  This mediation process is probably the
    way of the future, is less expensive, and is really tailored to provide a
    win-win situation for all concerned in a civilized manner.
    
    Good luck to you all!
    
    Sue
     

    
    	Well, I will be judgemental and say that if he does indeed leave
    his 7 year-old daughter behind he is one first class %$##@#. However,
    he is not alone. I can tell you that there are thousands upon thousands
    of single mothers with children whose fathers have split for parts 
    unknown. I don't know how they can do it. The children are after all is
    said and done HIS as well as HERS.
    	In my opinion this is a major character flaw in the MALE of the 
    species.
    	From my own experience "joint custody" stinks and drives the kids
    into therapy quicker than a subscription to Cosmo.
    	If he loves his daughter he'll stay near-by. It's real easy to
    write a check once a month, it's tough being a parent and being there
    every day which is the most important thing.
    
    

    My father left us for the last time when I was 7.  I never saw him
    again.  I was very hurt and sad for awhile, but the blessing of
    childhood is that I learned to survive and cope reasonably well.
    I felt angry at times--like Father/Daughter Dinner Night at school,
    but for the most part, I refocused on the love I had from my mother
    and grandmother.  If your husband actually does this deed, your
    child will be hurt, but over time, she will heal as best she can
    So many of us have had to do the same.  It is important that you let her
    know how much you love her and how you will continue to be there
    for her.  Try not to over compensate (hard to do), but treat it
    simply as a fact of life.  If you can handle it well, she will probably
    try to emulate you.
    
    Much Support from another Abandoned Child (who is doing well),
    Barb

    I've been a read only participant of this notesfile for over
    a year now, but this note touched me enough that I wanted to
    reply.
    
    I'm going through a similar situation now.  It's hard.  On
    everyone.
    
    One thing I'd like to say is I don't think it's a good idea
    for you to reassure your daughter that her daddy loves her.
    She needs to get this from *HIM*.  I did that very thing and
    I got a very angry reaction from her.  She didn't FEEL it--
    if you are loved, usually you KNOW.  My telling her something
    SHE didn't feel/know in her heart caused her more pain.
    
    He's also threatening me that he won't see the kids
    and won't continue child support if I file legal divorce papers.
    This has upset me and I finally got to the point where I've
    told him that I won't make excuses for him to them anymore.
    His relationship or lack thereof is HIS, not mine and I will
    no longer take any responsibility for it.  She's a great kid.
    He'll lose out, but that's his decision, not mine.
    
    If you'd like to talk through MAIL, please feel free to write
    me.
    
    Karen

    One of the most difficult lessons I had to learn -- it took me about
    16 years to really get there -- was there was nothing I could do to
    make Stacy's father be the type of father she deserved.  Bill
    essentially deserted the children from his first marriage when we
    had been married a few months.  The kids were probably 3 and 5 at the
    time.  With Stacy -- probably because I stayed close to his family and
    he couldn't blame me if he didn't see her -- it's been more of a matter
    of what I call serial desertion.  He reappears in her life when he
    is unhappy, between wives, feeling sorry for himself, etc.  Other
    than that it has apparently been too much effort for him to pick up
    a phone and call much less get on a plane or sned her a ticket.
    
    About two years ago I finally realized that I couldn't make up for his
    deficiencies as a human being and I can't make up for the hurt he has
    caused her.  I can only be the best mother I know how to be.
    
    If I had it to over again, I probably wouldn't have been so careful not
    to be critical of Bill in front of Stacy.  I wouldn't try to give her
    the impression that he loved her (I don't think that he's truly capable
    fo loving).  I think that what I accomplished was to give her a message
    that it wasn't OK to talk about her feelings toward her father in front
    of me.  
    
    I always feel very sad when I hear stories like the basenoters and the
    reply just previous to this one.  Everyone loses.
    
    Polly 

    I happen to be another one "who has been there".  My ex and I were
    divorced in 1971, four children 14, 11, 9, 8.  The first year he came
    for 15 min visit, then disappeared.  In all that time we had two phone
    calls (he was drunk) both disruptive.  In all this time we had
    graduations, three weddings (all of which an invitation was sent to his
    mother to forward) and he never acknowledged any of it.  
    
    He died last January, his second wife called for $$$$ of course, three
    of my children drove to PA for the funeral and they couldn't even wait
    for them 10 minutes!!!  They found out he knew he was dying and yet he
    never called to see them or his 7 grandchildren.
    
    This is a long note to tell you - you are not alone.  I would explain
    to your daughter that some people cannot love as she does, or you do,
    that it has nothing to do with her, but something that is missing in
    him.  And try not to wish he would be the way you want him to be, if he
    was there would probably be no divorce.  For some reason after the
    separation and divorce we tend to ask "why doesn't he" it took me
    awhile to realize he didn't in our marriage so why would he now!
    
    Good luck to you both and please take it one day at a time, suddenly
    you will turn around and it will be 20 years!!! (I still can't believe
    it)
    
    Pat
    

    
    I was married and when my daughter was two I was divorced. The
    separation had been just under a year long. He had done some 
    'not so smart' things in order to get me to change my mind. 
    I could not respect him or his way of thinking anymore.
    
    Before the orders where final he had moved out of state. He was
    not allowed to see my daughter for the last six months of the 
    waiting period because he "kidnapped" her and hid her for two days
    -til he could not afford to keep her in daycare for 24 hour days-
    
    I had special arrangements made for long visits that were out of state
    because I had been told by him that his family had varios emotional
    and alcohal problems and one was epileptic from an accident.
    I arranged for me to see her for a 24 hour time frame during each of
    the weeks that she would be at his house and she was to be enrolled in
    certified Day CAre if he was working days(If the stories he told me 
    were true I wanted him to be present when she visited his family
    members). The amount of time each quarter that she could spend with 
    him increased each year as she would become more capable of taking care
    of her self. Til at the age of 7 or 8 she could spend 6 weeks or so at
    his house in the summer.
    
    I went through all he work to protect her but give him the opportunity
    to get to know her. 
    
    Well any contact she has had with him is because I have called first.
    Birthdays and Christmas where forgotten as not package would show up
    from him. She asked questions and had done the routine "I want my
    DADDY!" when I would discipline her for a rule she might have ignored.
    
    Over the last nine years she has asked me 
    
    "Does my Daddy love me"
    "Why did you divorce my Daddy"
    
    Over time I have learned that when I have shared with her 
    the truth as I see it she responds to me as a friend and I can comfort
    her as a friend.
    
    I was able to ignore the "I want my daddy" plea for a long time
    Sometimes I could comfort her but I would not comfort her when she
    was obviously using it to hurt my feelings. One time she did it and
    I came unglued. I sat her down on the steps of our entry way so she 
    could see me eye to eye and started to share what I had often 
    held back from saying. I reminded her that I was the person who
    provided clothes, toys, food, house, friends to play with and a place
    to stay while I was at work. I drove her to Grandma's and to her
    friends house.  Then I asked her where was her dad. She did not know.
    Neither did I. I then pointed out that he chose to move away what ever
    his reason he did chose to move away. I did say that it is ok to want
    your daddy. I understand but I dont have to hear it or put up with 
    listening to her say thats what she wants when she is obviously is
    trying to make me mad or angry or hurt. I (screaming from across the
    room) said that your father does love you as much as he can love
    anybody and its not his fault that he does not know how to show you
    his love. I make sure you have the things you need because I love you
    and I want to takecare of you til you can grow up and take care of
    yourself
    So do you like seeing me hurt and angry?          
    She did not
    So i continued in the conversation as I was slowly cooling down to
    tell her that I have rules because They protect her til she is old
    enough to protect herself and takecare of herself. I expect some
    rules to be followed all the time.
    
    Over the years when she learned to tell me about how she misses her
    daddy when she is not using it to make me mad I can be loving and
    concerned and my feelings are my feelings and stem from things that
    are not her business to know. What happened between me and her daddy 
    is my business and I am truly sorry that it has made things so that 
    she cant see her daddy. SO I hold her while she cries and tell her 
    she loves her daddy like she should and thats wonderful.
    
    She has spent a total of 5 weeks and 1 day with her father.
    The first visit was 5 weeks long and she had not seen her dad for
    more that 3 years. I paid for the Air trip to Arizona and back. I gave
    her some spending money and put the rest in her suitcase for her Dad
    to keep track of(she was only five and I figured that the suitcase
    would be safer than her little pack-she loses things fast sometimes)
    
    The next visit was more that 4 years later when I made a surprise visit
    during a regular scheduled visit to Iowa to go up to St. Paul and see
    if we could arrange for her to spend some time with her Dad. I would
    not tell her about it because at Christmas time the wheather is so
    changeable and I did not want to get her hopes up and then because of
    weather not be able to get there.
    
    Well weather did delay our schedule by a week and she was a week late
    from Christmas Vacation but the counselor understood why I wanted to
    try to let her visit him and agreed to let her make up the school work
    after she came back so we would not have to tell her about the
    surprise.
    
    For weeks after she alternated from joy to sadness and finally said she
    wanted to talk to me. She was nine. So We sat in her room and she
    finally asked me about what her daddy did to make me want to divorse
    him and why he (my ex) still loves me and why I wont divorse Steve and 
    marry him again.
    
    Well, I do not think that she should know anything more that we did not 
    get along and the rest is not her business. She continued to insist and
    finally I said..
    
    Do you think It would be fair if I told you what he did (if
    anything)when he is not hear to give his reasons(if any). I know you
    dont understand and thats ok. The problem was with me and him  and we
    both love you very much and want you to be safe and happy. 
    
    She then told me that she just missed her father and wanted us to be a
    family again. I told her I understood and some times when I see her
    sad I wish for a minute that maybe things could have been different.
    And they are not. So I hug her and hug her and hug her.
    
    "I wont change what I know is right but you have the right to feel
    this way about what I decided to do to change your life."
    
    This is the attitude that has helped us both relate to each other as
    friends as well as mother/daughter.
    
    In the long term I know I have made mistakes but I have tried to be 
    honest about them and told her that I should not say this or that
    because that has nothing to do with his relationship with her. And she
    accknowleges that I am not a perfect mother and her dad is not a
    perfect dad and it's ok to love us in spite of our imperfections and it
    is ok to be imperfect herself because I will still love her and so will
    her dad and so will Steve(stepdad).
    
    After writing this I relise that this may not be helpful to you but
    It has been healing to me to write it and remember and forgive myself
    for those mistakes that I have made and relise I did do some pretty
    special things and thats why she is as wonderful as she is.
    
    P.S. she just got a Claranet and I see it in her hands everytime I see
    her. Makes doing the chores difficult but she does seem to do things 
    faster to get back to playing her instrament.
    Janet
    
    
    

    I'm divided on this issue.  On one hand I think it's criminal for any
    parent to deny their responsibility for a child just because their
    relationship with the other parent ends.  On the other hand if he is
    not going to be there emotionally for the child and is spending time
    with the child from a sense of obligation then I think the child would
    pick that up.  I think this that having to constantly live with a
    father's attitude of "I spend time with you because I have to" would
    make the child feel even more rejected.  A little girl's first
    experience of man-woman relationships and testing them comes from her
    relationship with her father.  Frankly, I'd rather have my daughter be
    completely estranged from her father than feel like there's something
    wrong with her because he's not really "there" when he's with her. 
    That way at least she would be free to form healthy relationships with 
    other adult males without feeling she was being disloyal to her father.
    
    I wasn't as lucky with my ex.  We split up but he still wanted to be
    the perfect father - at least that's what he wanted the world to see. 
    he molested my daughter when she was 3.  Unfortunately, our "justice"
    system being what it is, he got away with it and I still have to let
    him see her.
    
    Nanci 

I certainly can relate to the base noter.  It happened to me as well.  My ex 
and I split when my daughter was 1 1/2 years old.  He actually did not see
for for the first 6 months after I moved out.  Then time passed and he started
seeing her every other weekend.  I feel that time is on your side.  He is 
reacting to a situation in an immature manner.   It doesnt mean that he doesnt
love her, but its not the type of loving behaviour that I was brought up with!!
My ex has his own version of the word love.....:-)

Anyways he has also over the years proven to be extremely immature.  When I was
remarried my daughter started to sign her last name as my new last name.  When
he saw this he was furious and told her he didnt want to see her again!!  Right
to her little face (this was when she was 7).  He didnt see her for a very long
time and as time passed he calmed down and started seeing her once every three
months.  He has now moved out of state and sees her about 3 times a year.

I guess my point is this...if hes willing to go to mediation, do it!!  My ex was
not willing.  Im sure my daughter is still hurt from her fathers past treatment.
My ex does not know the definition of "whats best for the child".  

I really hate to say this, but not all divorces work out and sometimes I wish
we would never see or hear from him again. 

Regards, Judy

    
    
    	I'm speaking from my past experances as a child and what a wished
    	I got then.  I had a *very* abusive childhood and used to pray
    	all the time that my parents would divorce but they never did.
    	Both of them were in their own worlds and took there past out
    	on us kids.  We survived but, it was a consent struggle.  The love
    	we had/have for each other pulled us through.  We had to realize
    	and learned later on in life that no one is at fault for someone
    	elses doings and feelings.  Everyone is there *own* person.
    	Granted what my parents did, was awful and not forgivable (in
    	my eyes) but I had to stop blaming myself.  We are all very happy
    	now and time *does* Heal but, does not remove the scars.  My sister
    	and I chose wonderful men to spend the the rest of our lives
    	with together and have learned to Heal and go on.  What I'm
    	getting at is...
    
    	This divorce you are getting may be better in the long run for
    	you daughter and yourself.  What he chooses to do is *his* decision
    	and not yours. You are not be responsible for explaining his
    	actions to your daughter, he should.  If he chooses not to sit down
    	and talk to his little girl then all you can do is be there
    	for her and show her how much *you* love her.  I hope too even
    	*if* he changes his mind on seeing her that you have her talk
    	to a councelor.  Childern are not capable of understanding something
    	like this, they turn it around and blame themselfs. It's natural...
    	She needs help to understand that everyone is different and
    	some people are just uncabable of giving love, maybe they never
    	got it when they were young?  Who know's, but she must realize
    	that is not her fault and not to always hope for something that
    	will never be.  You must also take care of yourself!  What he
    	does is his decision, he is an adult...  I read some replies
    	saying be nice to *him* and yes that is nice but do what is
    	good for *you* and your future.  You are not a bad person if
    	you choose not to comfort him.  I've always heard  "Honor Thy
    	Parents" or "Love Thy Parents", what about me!  They didn't
    	"Honor" or "Love" Thy Childern...  You can't make yourself feel
    	gulity about not giving something to someone who doesn't deserve 
    	it...
    
    	I may of got off track but I hope this helps to let you know
    	what *you* and your *daughter* need.

    	I wish the best for you and your daughter and pray that time
    	will pass quickly and heal.
    
    	Zina
    

<                    -< He wants to leave his daughter too! >-

    
What is the status of this one?

     Carol

    in re .29
    
    I just forwarded your mail to the base note author.
    
    Bonnie

    I know this is somewhat of an old note.  I haven't been following =wn=
    very closely for a while.  This is a subject that I have done a *LOT*
    of work on, and still it is a subject that is difficult for me to
    try and put in understandable terms even now.
    
    Although I do not agree with what the father in .0 is doing, I *can*
    *understand* why.  Sometimes (all too often) the emotional burden of
    dealing with the child and the reminder of unpleasant things that
    the child brings is just too much for the father to bear.  These
    emotions can span the entire range of quilt for leaving the child to
    having the ex constantly use the child to yank his cord.  The *only*
    way they can deal with it without going off the deep end is to just
    separate totally (out of sight, out of mind has a *big* part in this).
    Most usually this separation has nothing to do with the the love of
    the father for the child, but has to do with the father's own
    capability to deal with his own emotional turmoil.

    Then there are those who really do believe (mistakenly imho)
    that "it is better for the child", and if the hate and fighting
    continue even into the divorce with the child being used as a
    pawn in the middle, then maybe it is the lesser of evils.

    And then there are those parents (both male and female) who
    *are* just plain self-centered, immature, irresponsible a**h***s.
    
    I don't try to pass any judgments on whether .0 is right, wrong, or
    indifferent, but the *type* of father described in .0 and the shadow
    cast on non_custodial fathers by them makes it *much* more difficult
    on fathers who *do* care and *do* try and maintain a relationship
    with their children after divorce ( I could right a book on this one-
    and may some day).
    
    I feel very strongly that whether it is the non_custodial parent who 
    abandons the child, or the custodial parent who makes it h**l for
    the non_custodial parent to maintain the relationship, the child has a 
    *right* to have *both* parents as part of his/her life.  (I'm not
    trying to blame *all* custodial parents *or* *all* non_custodial parents
    here.  Just the bad ones).  Either way the looser is the child.
    
    fred();