Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Mike,
                   .0 was a tongue-in-cheek poke at an overabundance of
    concern of how we each look.  Society has decided how men like there
    women and how women look at men.  Most of the men I know wish that
    their SO would stop being *so* concerened with how they look and
    concentrate on issues of far greater importance.  I believe that 
    most of our entertainment, ie.....mags,tv,and newspapers, ingrain
    us with the Idea "skinny" is beautiful.  History teaches us that 
    men of an earlier era believed differently....so do I.  
    
    
          *a nit.....IMHO should have meaning, even to you Mike.
    
    
    Dave

    .3
                I guess now is the time to say that "thin" is not the 
    same as "skinny" nor the same as "svelt".  Skinny brings up in my 
    mind as a person below their weight to height ratio.  In my case I
    am 5 to 10 pounds *below* what is considered norm for me.  I can eat
    all day and not gain.  What most people and many women in particular,
    don't relize is for me to "skip" a meal is far more dangerous than
    someone who is about right or even above the reccomended weight.  
    Proportion, is an idea that is not considered in most weight/height
    charts.  Bone size also has a lot to do with this.  Our Society has
    decided what is right without taking into consideration any of these
    factors.  Threal unfortunate thing is, many people and women in
    particular, are believing this trash.  
    
                  How many times Mike have you found a woman attractive 
    only to find out that she is 15 to 20 lbs overweight.  This has
    happened to me and I wonder why the concern when I feel she looks
    great.  It is all relative.
    
    
    Dave

    Bonnie,
                    Thank you that was well put.
    
    Dave
    
    
      Ps: Bonnie.......Lorna who?...node?....phone#.....anything? ;^)

    Mike,
               I guess that the old and very overused saying "Beauty is in
    the eye of the beholder" is apropos at this juncture.
    
               
    
    Dave

    Dave,
    
    I do hope some more people take up on this on Monday...
    
    the intention was lovely even if it has gotten derailed a bit.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie, you little devil, how clever of you to flatter *me* so I
    would refrain from attacking .0 for insulting thin women! :-)

    Everyone has a right to their taste as far as who they would like
    to spend nights of mad, passionate love with, but I think it is
    less offensive to say, "I prefer women with a little meat on their
    bones" (or something) than to say "I don't like thin women."  Besides
    if you prefer heavier women, or men, don't be depressed, as far
    as I can tell from looking around over half the U.S. population
    is overweight! :-)  (so, you should have plenty to choose from!)
    
    re .9, Mike, I feel the same way about men.  
    
    re .0, again, I don't think you need to worry too much about squishing
    or breaking thin women!  I've spent many a night making mad passionate
    love with someone who weighs twice my weight and never got squished.
     (Maybe ya just need to strengthen your arms or something....you're
    not supposed to just flop, full-weight on top of us, anyway!) :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I like to stay thin because 
    
    1. It is hard to find good quality nice fitting clothes for over
       weight bodies. 
    
    2. My body is more efficient when thin. I can tell a 5 lbs difference
       when I run or play tennis.
    
    3. I don't want to get any health problems when I grow old.
    
    4. Muscles are more attractive to me than fat.
    
    I don't really care what men think of my body. (Well, my husband might 
    not have married me if I were overweight but....). It is a matter of
    personal preference for me.
    
    
    Eva.

    FWIW,
    
    I went on a diet about a year and a half ago and took off about 20 lbs.
    When people see me today, they can't believe that I would have ever had
    to lose weight. But when I put on weight, it doesn't go on evenly.  It
    all piles up on the hips/butt/thighs. So I can look in the mirror
    and see my ribs, but then I have to lie on the bed to get my pants on.
    I look like one of those punch toys they used to have on Romper room.
    
    I have never put on weight on my chest.  As long as I can remember
    I have always been able to see my ribs.  So for me, it's not a matter
    of getting "fat", it's more a matter of keeping the lower body in 
    proportion to the upper body.  I feel better, and it is also easier
    for me to get clothes when the top matches the bottom.
    
    Another reason is that I don't think fat is attractive at all.
    I would much rather take too skinny over too fat.  If I feel that
    some trait is unattractive in others, I feel much better about myself
    if I avoid having that trait.
    
    Just entered this to give another perspective on why some women might
    worry about their weight.  
    
    Lisa

.9>	There's not one overweight/overfat woman that I know who wouldn't
.9>    look better if she were in shape.

	Mike z - What is your definition of "overweight/overfat" and
    "in shape"?

	For me, most people look fine just the way they are.  People
    come in all varieties.  They wouldn't look any better or any worse
    if they gained or lost weight.  They would simply look a little
    different.

    Karen.

                    Healthy is attractive...
    
    
                          especially mental health...
    
                                                                  M...

    
    I must admit that I am one of those women whom Dave spoke of in .0.  I am 
    always trying to lose weight.  I'm actually right in the weight range for
    my height but I still see myself 10 lbs heavier.  I, too, wish that I could
    worry a little less. I work out 3-4 times per week, so health and muscle are
    not the issues.  I just cant seem to look like Jamie Lee Curtis no matter
    how hard I try!  
    
    I would guess that most women who are always weight conscious, are trying
    very hard to look like the women that we see in the swimsuit magazines.
    (And trying very hard not to hate the women who look like them!)
    
    Rachael
    

    in re .12 Lorna 
    
    :-) X 100
    
    bj

    RE: .12 (lorna) sigh.....
    
    
                            Forgive me Lorna, if you felt I had insulted 
    "thin" women.  To tell you the truth, I don't prefer "thin" or "heavy"
    women.  I just get tired of hearing about how "fat" women are when they
    look fine to me.  Also I know at least one women who is far too skinny
    and still is not satisfied with her shape. I hope you understand.
    .0 was ment to start talking about our attitudes toward weight
    problems, fat or skinny.  It was also supposed to be tongue-in-cheek!
    
    
    Dave

    I have been 200 pounds.  My body image is horrible.  I'm trying to make
    peace with how I look and accept it - even if it may have nothing to do with
    the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Ideal.  
    
    I'm trying to fight, but it's so hard hearing all the diet ads and
    Richard Simmons exhorting those who are "imprisoned by fat" to shed it
    and live happily ever after.  If it's one thing I've discovered in my
    search is that weight loss, often touted as "the road to happiness",
    doesn't solve everything.  In fact, sometimes it creates just as many
    problems as it solves.
    
    I started whispering it....starting telling myself I'm me, not them,
    and that should be okay.  I'm trying to say it louder now.  I'm trying
    to break the mold society is forcing me in to.
    
    But the models smile and the fashion-racks scream size 5 and the
    universe revolves around Paulina and the waitress frowned when I
    ordered cheesecake and the world shakes its finger at the shame a fat
    person should feel for NOT living up to the standards the media sets
    today.
    
    And having been so brainwashed, I look in the mirror, and I can't see
    how I really look sometimes, I can only see the fat, and the tears...
    
    -Jody
    

    re .21, at least you have big b**bs, :-), and a cute face, and you
    aren't fat now!!!  (remember the chain mail)
    
    I used to be friends with a girl who was extremely fat - obese -
    but she had a pretty face and once when I pointed that out to her
    she said, If I have one more person tell me that at least I have
    a pretty face I'll go crazy!  (the idea of that being an annoying
    problem had never occurred to me before)
    
    Also, when I was in high school I was very skinny, much skinnier
    than I am now.  One of my best friends was fat, and once when we
    were walking into a dance we walked past a boy who said to his friends,
    "Oh, look!  Great!  A fat one and a skinny one!"   So.....it can
    be difficult to please the masses whether fat or thin....
    
    re .0, I think you might have come up with a less offensive title
    than "skinny is not beautiful."  After all, we all have our own
    idea of what is not beautiful.  I could tell you mine, too, but
    I might offend a few people in the process and I'd rather not.

    I've never exercised regularly, or been on a diet.  I've always
    eaten whatever I wanted to eat and the way I look is the way I look.
     If I exercised I could be in better shape.  But, the point is that
    not all thin people are obsessed with looking thin.  Some of us
    just turned out that way!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Well unfortunately, I have a problem opposite to most women I
    know.  I have problems gaining weight.  I used to say I was skinny
    but my mom always hated that word and I guess it's rubbing off on
    me.  I don't say I'm skinny anymore.  It's slim or thin or whatever.
    What little weight I do gain, goes to my buttocks and my thighs.  I
    wish it would go to places like my knees and my arms which I think
    need a little more "meat" on them.  I do however, get my fair share
    if admiring glances and nice comments on my appearance.
    
    One of my best friends is bigger than I.  Not fat but she is large-
    boned like her mom and therefore needs a little extra weight for 
    her body to look right.  And she too gets her fair share of flattering
    looks and comments.
    
    So I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.  And .0 I agree with you
    as far as the fact that some women go too far about their weight.
    I have girlfriends who are the same size as me or thinner who still
    think they need to lose weight.  That insecurity I believe is within
    them and maybe they feel if they improve the outside, the inside will
    automatically follow.  But their insecurity blinds them and no matter
    how much weight they lose (or gain) it's never enough.
    
    JJ
    

Re: .21  Jody

You don't have to let society force you into anything. The next time you
look into the mirror, see what else you can see in your eyes besides the tears.
You might see a beautiful person there. One of the most beautiful women I have 
ever met weighs a lot more than you do and to tell you the truth, I don't 
think she would look half as good if she was 120 pounds.

The point is, you are you. I hate to repeat what everyone else is saying, but
it's the truth. Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. Check that mirror
again tonight.

wes

    re: .24
    
    Thanks.
    
    I'm working on it.  Metamorphosis isn't easy, even for caterpillars
    like me!
    
    But there's a butterfly in there somewhere.....
    
    :)
    
    -Jody

    
    	Jody, this is my first reply in this file, but I used
    	to feel as you do...I lost 25 lbs, and it took me SIX
    	months to re-adjust my self image. I was even still 
    	trying on clothes (and sometimes buying them!) in my old
    	size, wondering why they didn't look right. Then I read somewhere
    	that your brain retains your old image of yourself for
    	several months after your body changes. Knowing that, I 
    	was able to let go of the old image and start seeing my-
    	self in the new one - `yes, I have lost weight, I have
    	accomplished something, and I deserve to feel good about
    	it!'. Good luck...
    
    
    	Sherry
    

    Weight has always been an issue for me.  I've never been hugely obese
    but I've also never been "skinny".  One of the things that I've just
    recently learned (as in I really believe it and have internalized it)
    is that I need to understand what weight I feel good at and think I look
    good at  and aim for that as a goal.  Forget being as thin as my 21
    year old daughter -- I wasn't that slim when I was 21.  Forget losing
    weight for man X or occaision Y.  If I feel attractive, then I'll be
    attractive.  There will always be men who don't find me attractive,
    whether it be because I'm not magazine model thin or some other reason,
    and that's OK.  
    
    It's only since I've come to that conclusion that I've had any luck
    controlling my weight.
    
    Why do we (women) think we need to be skinny to be attractive?  Look at
    "SINGLES" or the personals in Boston magazine and see how many ads say
    "weight proportionate to height" and, in many cases, go on to define
    a weight which borders on anorexic?  I answered one of these ads once
    (hey, the guy used the phrase "scintillating sensuality" and I'm a
    sucker for illteration) and he told me flatly that he could NEVER be
    the least bit attracted to a woman who was even 5 lbs overweight.....
    Ya' hear that kind of thing often enough and it can really start to
    play with your head -- especially if you're not really secure to start.

    
    re.22, "at least you have big b**bs" -
    
    What's wrong with small b**bs? Are they "unattractive" compared to
    bigger ones? If so, who says so?
    
    :-}
    
    D.

    re: .22
    
    Everyone I've ever dated has told me that there's no reason to have
    more than a handful of mammary glands.  Anything more is just wasted.
    
    I'd have to say I'm probably in the flatter portion of the female
    population, but the only times I've ever felt deficient are when I've
    gone to purchase clothes.  I am really sensitized to bathing suit ads
    too.  Almost invariably the model is stacked.  And I mean stacked.
    If I saw a bathing suit that looked really good on a model with even
    average chest, I'd probably buy it in a second.
    
    No real people have told me I'm "flat", but Madison Ave screams at me
    all the time.
    
    Lisa

>I am really sensitized to bathing suit ads
>    too.  Almost invariably the model is stacked.  And I mean stacked.

Not hardly!!!!  The women in bathing suit ads have very firm, uplifted
but *not* overly large breasts.  I know, because I look and look for a 
bathing suit made for a large woman.  They don't exist. The bathing suits,
especially bikinis, out there don't provide any support, and a woman larger
than a B, or maybe if she is lucky a C, she sags and falls out of "normal"
bathing suits.  As a smaller-than-average woman, they might look "stacked"
to you, but believe me, they aren't all that large.

D!

    re .30, .31, believe me a lot of *real* people, both male and female,
    have told me to my face that I'm "flat" and it was pretty easy to
    tell that they were pointing out a deficiency.  I've had enough
    comments about my appearance in my life time to know by now -
    breasts=bad, ass=good!!! (that's apparently how the world sees my
    physcial attributes anyway, and many haven't been too shy about
    telling me!)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    re .33 -
    
    Yes but Lorna, *why* should this be perceived as a deficiency?
    
    D.

    When I was in my 20s I was thin and I was very concerned about
    staying thin. It was an image that I had to keep.  
    
    Now in my 30s I have added a few more pounds and I feel great. 
    I think I am quite attractive and feel healthier.  I am started
    to exercise to tone up the extra pounds.  
    
    It's how you feel about yourself.  If you feel healthy I think
    that will help a great deal about how you view your body.
    
    denise  
    

    D!, between you, me and Lisa, sounds like a B is the thing to be.
    
    Its certainly a revelation to me that those women in bikini and bra ads
    were not C's and D's, purposefully selected to make me feel like a
    Flatsy Doll or a "Carpenters Dream" (flat as a board, easy to screw.
    There was also a Pirate's Treasure, them that had a sunken chest.)
    
    I guess one of the nice things to know is that the way most men are, if
    he's a chest man, he won't even look in my direction, so I'll never
    have to find out that my breasts are too small for him. Its taken me
    enough years to decide that they're big enough for me!

    re .34, Dorian, I guess you'll have to ask Hollywood, Madison Avenue,
    and the typical American male the answer to that question, eh? :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .33
    
    > tell that they were pointing out a deficiency.  I've had enough
    > comments about my appearance in my life time to know by now -
    > breasts=bad, ass=good!!! (that's apparently how the world sees my
    > physcial attributes anyway, and many haven't been too shy about
    > telling me!)
    
    Lorna, have any of these people seen fit to comment on the attributes
    of your <insert Yiddish word and Form Feed Here>
    
         Knish? 
    
    You know, as in "How's your Knish?" :-)   
      
      Alan
          

    Well, Lorna, with you and me being at opposite ends of the scale
    [literally], I'm sure we've both had more than our share of comments
    about our appearance, never mind the all-pervading Women Must Be
    Perfect Size-wise garbage....
    
    Look. It says a hell of a lot more about the commentors than it says
    about us. You're too skinny? I'm too fat? Bleah. It's just another
    way to get women to toe the line. The people in life who really count
    like us just the way we are. I plan to use my energy fighting the
    stereotypical crap, not myself.
    
    --DE
    

    Re: .39
                  Thank you!  Its so refreshing to hear a Woman say what 
    you just did.  I like people (women) that are satisfied enough with 
    themselves to be open and honest and not always apologizing because 
    there "too small", "too big", "chest too large/small", "thighs",
    "tummys" and on and on and on.  To me, it detracts from the natural
    beauty of a self secure woman.
    
    
    Dave

    re .40, I think a person can be satisfied with themselves while
    still being realistic enough to know they aren't centerfold material.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .41 Lorna,
    
                    Your right, they can.  I just wish more Women thought 
    that way.  In my stupid and clumsy way, thats what I've been trying
    to say.  I am glad that Bonnie and I have been friends for the past
    several years, because she is able to verbalize here what I seem not
    able to get across.
    
                    Thank you Bonnie!
    
    Dave

    re. 41 Anybody *can* be, but a lot of people *aren't*. I think
    it must be harder for women, when the men around them are
    bombarded with images of women, way at the end of the bell curve,
    presented as normal, ideal even. Whereas most guys on TV and in
    the mags aren't much better lookin' than average ol' me :-)
    Seriously, go out and look _hard_ at the next 500 women you see.
    How many of them would qualify as centerfolds ? 1 or 2 maybe.
    How many are near-average ? 450 or more. But here's the kicker -
    how many of that 450+ are *happy* with their looks ? That is
    some powerful salesmanship. 
    
    Maybe if the centerfolds start getting viewed as the near-freaks
    they are... 

    Ahem.  Some years ago, I attended a talk by a well-known cartoonist.
    He was also a well-known photographer of nude women for assorted
    "men's magazines".
    
    (This talk was a spontaneous seminar, which he set up to be for
    women only.  I've mentioned it before.  (There is a videotape
    available.))  He explained that he had seen over two thousand
    beautiful, naked women during the course of his career and
    "Not one of them -- not one! -- was perfect!"
    
    So, all you centerfold-class womannoters:  We know you are no more
    perfect than the rest of us ;-).
    
    							Ann B.

    In a previous job, one of the women I worked with was flat-chested
    (she as rather diminutive all around, actually). She was also one
    of the sexiest women in the place. And she used to wear a button
    that read "Small-breasted women have big hearts".
    
    --- jerry

    RE: -1 (Jerry)
    
                    My brothers taught me about "small breasted" women.
    I am sure it is just an "old wives tale" but so far it has proved very 
    true.  It is also something to be discussed offline.
    
    Dave

    re: .46
    
    yeah.  I'm starting to get uncomfortable with all this focus on chests. 
    It's strange how so much can focus on so few ounces of flesh.....
    
    -Jody
    

    or a few pounds of flesh!!!! :-)

    re; centerfolds
    
    I knew a woman who had been a Playboy Playmate of the Month, and I
    dated a woman whom I later found out, much to my surprise, had posed
    for Penthouse some years before, and while they were both pretty
    women, they really weren't exceptionally pretty. The photographer's
    bag of tricks can add a lot.
    
    besides, it is mostly in the mind of the beholder....
    
    -roger
    

    
    re. .47
    	
    The chest is the single most visible and unique aspect that seems to
    define women from men, especially amoung men.  Everything else is
    hidden but, the outline still is visible even under winter clothes.
    The visibility makes them to easy discuss and compare.  Its the
    only other thing besides the weight and shape of their owner that
    is not totaly hidden.
    

    I'd like to bring up a point here.  How many women do you feel have
    'extra' weight on purpose?  For me I cant seem to get to ideal weight.
    After much inward searching I found that I have the weight there for a
    shield.  
    Any others??  Judy
    

    Re: .50
    
    > The chest is the single most visible and unique aspect that seems to
    > define women from men, especially amoung men.
    
    Silly me, I tend to look at her face first... I'm pretty bad at
    recognizing a woman by her breasts...
    
    For what it's worth, I personally find strong, "sturdy", muscular, and
    yes "plump" women very attractive. Moreso than "thin", "willowy", or
    "skinny" women. My two favorite painters are Renoir and Rubens.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. RATHOLE - HOT BUTTON - "most unique", "very unique" ARGGHHH!!!
    Unique is *unique* - the one and only! Adding "most" or "very" doesn't
    make it MORE unique! A singular thing is already SINGULAR!
    
    Arf! Arf! Arf! Grr, ooowwwoooo!!!
    
    There -- I feel better now.
    
    (now don't go off misusing "less"/"fewer" or "come"/"go" or
    "bring"/"take" or I'll get REALLY angry! :-)
    
    P.P.S. I've given up on "gender". A perfectly good word ruined because
    people are too repressed to say "sex". Words have gender, people have
    sex! Easy to remember, no?!
    
    pant pant pant. It's too hot for grammar flames... :-)

    I had on extra weight as protection - I'm sure.  As the only female in
    an all-male shop every other week throughout highschool, I needed some
    social insulation, so I could be "invisible", and wouldn't be picked on
    (I was anyway, but it was not the kind of "attention" I felt I couldn't
    deal with - and am still afraid of.....but I'm working on it).
    
    -Jody
    

    re .51, a shield against *what*?  
    
    (I mean, if it could stop bullets or knives it might be worth it.)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    A shield against attention (generally from the opposite sex), a shield
    against being noticed, in some cases a shield against success (or
    expectation of success).  This last of the three comes into play when
    being overweight can be used as an excuse for not attaining something -
    to save one from potential feelings of failure.  Part of them is 
    terrified of being noticed, because then they may have to deal with
    expectations people have and needs people have which may cause stress
    or conflict or failure to meet those expectations or needs (and so forth).  
    
    It's also a layer of insulation which says, "see, world....?  I *don't*
    have to conform and do what you tell me....", and which can also act
    rebelliously against parents or loved ones who "only want the best for
    them" and sometimes control their lives to the point where the only thing
    they *can* control is food (often the starting point for compulsive
    eating or anorexia or bulimia...).  
    
    -Jody
    

	Well, I had several reasons for losing weight.  

	As of Feb 1st, I was 5'1" and 151 lbs.  My blood pressure was higher 
than it had ever been 120/80 (not high by medical definition yet, but going up 
is not the right direction).  My resting heart rate was 100.  I tired easily.
The backaches that started during my pregnancy were continuing.  I have 
Rheumatoid Arthitis and had just had the worst winter I'd had in years.  My 
Father has high blood pressure and my grandmother has geriatric diabetes made 
worse by her weight.  And recent studies have shown that being more than 20% 
overweight (which I was) is a strong risk factor for heart disease in women.
So health was my main motivation

	My mother is and generally has been overweight all my life.  She has 
lost weight only to gain it back shortly thereafter.  She always has a reason 
why she can't lose it/keep it off.  (And the reason was never the fact that 
she was sedentary, and liked to eat chocolate and potatoe chips and drink Coke.)
I had learned that lesson very well from her.  But I'm a mother now and want to
set a better example for my daughter. I want Katie to grow up excercising and 
eating right as a matter of course.  So Katie was the triggering factor.

 	I won't deny that a motivating factor that has kept me going when I'm 
tired of walking in the cold rain or (like today) in the  90+ with 75% humidity
weather, is seeing the clothing sizes going down from 16's to 8's.  But that 
was just positive reinforcement, something I could see while waiting for the 
more esoteric long term benefits. 

	As of today, I weigh 117, a much healthier weight for my height.  My BP
is down to 95/60.  My resting heartrate is below 70.  I have much more energy.
Even after walking long distances, I no longer have backaches.  And best of all,
my arthritis pretty much leaves me alone these days.  I intend to lose between 
10 and 15 more pounds.  (For my height and build (very small frame) a healthy 
weight is not much over 100 lbs.) I'm in no rush to do it.  Losing a pound every 
2 weeks or so is fine.  I'm letting my mental picture of myself catch up with 
reality and getting to see how I feel at this weight before I decide for sure 
how much more I need to lose.

	
	Tracey

    Lorna,
    
    Read "Fat is a Feminist Issue". It's worth reading, even though you
    aren't fat
    
    manisha

    Tracey -
    
    Congratulations!  You seem to be approaching your weight loss sensibly,
    from excellent motivations, and succeeding.  It ain't easy, I'm
    sure.
    
    (From a perpetual skinny-minnie, who is trying to put back on the
    weight she lost over the winter.)
    
    Alison

    By the way,  I've modified this title from one that could be
    read as a put down on thin women to one more appropriate to
    the intent of the topic at the request of the basenote author.
    
    Bonnie J
    
    =wn= comod