Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    re .0, to be honest with you, as a "lower level" female employee,
    I find it offensive that you think that if I were having an affair
    with a manager, that I had been manipulated into it.  What if a
    male manager began an affair with a female manager?  Would you think
    she had been manipulated into it?  What I really think is that unless
    the two are not getting their work done because of the affair, and
    unless the "lower level" female is complaining around to people
    about the situation, everyone should just mind their own business.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	I pretty much agree with Lorna on this one. It's none
    	of your or my business. However, I think the managers
    	should have enough sense to know they are putting themselfs
    	in a dangerous situation. One should never date a person
    	who reports to you. What I would do would be to transfeer
    	the person under another manager. If for no other reason
    	than to keep rumors of special treatment down.
    
    	G_B

    If she's been "manipulated" into it, it's harrassment and Digital has
    a program in place to handle it.  She WILL have to recognize it as such
    and file a complaint, though.
    
    As a "lower level" female who had a romantic relationship with one of
    the managers in my chain of command in a previous lifetime, I, too,
    find it curious, and a little offensive, that you seem to presume I was
    being manipulated (against my will) and was too naive to recognize it. 
    Or to take corrective action if/when corrective action was required.
    
    I'm reminded of a ridiculous question I was asked by a bozo manager
    (also in a previous life) who was concerned about the "hanky-panky" his
    sales reps were engaging in when male and female reps from across the
    country mixed at two- and three-week-long training sessions.  He asked
    me how he could prevent this scandalous state of affairs.  After all,
    the "girls'" reputations were at stake.  I reminded him that the "girls"
    were all college graduates and had, presumably in most cases, learned
    how to deal with unwelcome attentions somewhere along the line by the
    time they reached the age of 24.  But he still felt action on his part
    was required.  So I suggested, with a perfectly straight face but a
    malicious gleam in my eye, "Maybe you'd better plan on building a
    single-gender sales force, then.  And given the figures I've seen for
    the reps in question, I'd suggest it be female."
    
    Karen
    Karen

My oldest brother was in a supervisory position and his subordinate
persued him (and caught him) despite the fact that he was married
at the time.  The way I heard it, she had some "things to talk out"
(call them problems if you wish) and my brother went to lunches and
dinners with her to lend an ear.

Without going into any gory details, he is now married to this woman.
It's been years since this occurred but when it came to light in the
family circle, I don't know how many of you can imagine the trauma
it caused.  But that's beside the point - affairs between co-workers
doesn't mean top-down pressure.

Mark

    re .4, why did your brother's actions cause trauma in the *family
    circle*?  I don't believe people should be obligated to please their
    relatives in regard to their marital choices.
    
    Lorna
    

The trauma occurred in that there were attachments to the first marriage.
The other woman, now an accepted member of the family, at the time
was viewed as a home wrecker.  My brother, just to be fair, was also 
considered to shoulder this blame.

It was painful for my brother, his first wife, and his second wife.
The family felt the [perhaps different] pain from the outside.

We are not obligated to please anyone.  This is true.

However, we affect and impinge on the feelings of those who love us
in significant ways, whether we like it or not.  The opposite of love isn't
hate; it is indifference.  The only way it wouldn't cause trauma is if
my family circle was indifferent to my brother and his life.

It was not simply, "I'm tired of marriage 1 and I want marriage 2, so I make
the decision to change."  The emotions of this affair and subsequent
divorce and remarriage, without going into more details, were traumatic
but not because my brother had any "obligations" to justify marital choices.

Gotta run.  See you on Tuesday.

        Not to specifically pick on the base note, but I find it insulting
    to suggest that adult women are not responsible for the situations
    and relationships in which they find themselves. It's a poor offense
    and a worse defense. 
                                                            
                                                     M...

    A employee in a "superior" position having sex (or any other close
    personal relationship) with another employee in a less powerful
    position can quickly and easily lead to sexual harassment, even if
    everyone involved "does the right thing". It is extremely easy to end
    up in a no-win situation this way. I went through the gory details in
    the "Sexual harassment" topic in WN V2, I'll be happy to repeat the
    scenario if people are interested. Basically, the manager (or whatever)
    can easily get into a position where they must choose between acting in
    favor of their lover, and offending a third party candiadate - thus
    harassing them, or choosing the third party - convincing the lover of
    reverse discrimination. Worse, from DEC's point of view, there is a
    prima-facie case for sexual discrimination and/or harassment, no matter
    what the manager does. It makes no difference how good the intentions
    are, or how well everyone behaves.
    
    This makes me very sad, because I agree with those saying that what two
    consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is no one elses
    business. I can't see a way out of this dilemma...
    
    	-- Charles

    
    I believe that it's the managers responsibility to avoid 
    conflicts of interest such as this.
    
    I believe that avoidance of affairs with reports is part
    of what managers owe to their reports/subordinates and to the company.
    ..either they should refrain, or they should arrange for a transfer 
    for one of the parties.

    And any manager who gets involved with an employee can kiss
    his/her reputation for objectivity and fairness goodbye.

    
    I have two issues, one with the male MARRIED manager, and one with the
    lower level female employee who willingly decides to participate in an
    affair with a married male manager who is higher in the organization.
    
    Regarding the woman, I submit her actions are besmudging (is that a
    word?) the reputations of ALL hardworking women in Digital who have
    struggled and worked hard to move upward in the ranks.  Have not all of
    us heard in the hallways by some with egos to protect, "Oh, she slept
    her way up to that position."  Said with absolutely no proof and in
    fact said against the majority of women who worked hard to earn that
    promotion, said by many males especially with egos who find it
    difficult to accept ANY women being successful.
    
    Now, what happens when many employees SEE a woman who IS actually
    participating in an affair with a higher level man who is a manager
    within Digital?  The stereotype prejudice is perpetuated, and the myth
    that ALL women MUST be doing it TOO is continued.  A thousand women
    working hard, earning positions in management and higher individual
    contributor positions -- all that honorable effort to get ahead
    successfully, ethically -- made suspect by the unethical actions of one
    or two women employees who elect to have an affair with a MARRIED
    manager in Digital.
    
    So the next time you hear in the hallway the stupid remark, "Oh, to get
    that job she must have slept her way up" -- stop and consider where the
    support comes from for such prejudiced opinions.
    
    Regarding the MARRIED male Digital manager deciding to have an affair
    with a lower level Digital female employee, I submit that if such a
    manager has no ethics in his home life, like being faithful to his wife
    and not committing adultery, then is it REALLY likely that this manager
    has any ethics in how he acts in Digital, in how he treats his
    employees that are under him?  Is it not likely, he is a user and
    exploiter, putting HIS personal agenda and satisfaction of his wants
    ahead of the good of the company and his people?
    
    And what happens when all his employees learn of his indiscretions? 
    Are they to be in admiration of this person who would lead them as
    their manager?  And what do his people think when the manager preaches
    Digital lingo of "doing what's right" on one side of his mouth, and
    then in his ACTIONS, clearly not?  Will the employees just keep silent,
    or worse, "follow the leader" in how their actions are affected within
    Digital?
    
    Those in Digital who would lead as managers have a higher obligation to
    the members of our Digital family -- meaning that their actions should
    reflect the ethics of Digital philosophy, "Do what's right."  And all
    managers who decide that such philosophy is crap, exemplified in their
    action of not only cheating on their wives, but doing so with female
    employees lower in the ranks (where there is a very real "potential"
    influence of a higher authority figure at work here), should NOT be a
    manager in this company, nor should employees be expected to follow
    such a hypocrite.
    

Re: .12

I do not know all of the details, (one of these days in the future I may
have the courage to ask but I do not really need to), but my brother changed
careers out of the management job and moved back east.  In this case, I can
be fairly certain that my (now) sister-in-law was not "sleeping her way up"
but rather coveted this man for herself.  If my brother were not a married
man at the time, the only problems would be the one cited in this note about
his reputation for objectively evaluting his subordinates.  I do not know
if the career change was a *direct* result of the "fraternization" or just
one of the casualties of the affair/divorce action that spanned several
months.

I see this note string splitting into office affairs between non-committed 
people being OK but can cause many headaches and office affairs between
committed people being a separate topic.

Now, remember that the point of my [true] story was that the relationship
pressure was *NOT* top down but upwards (in the management sense, of course).

Mark

    I say it is no ones business who goes out with who around the office. 
    If a married manager wants to have an affair with "higher, lower , or
    in-between level females" that is his perogative, he is an adult that
    can make adult decisions whether he is right or wrong.
    
    
    Lynne S.

    r .14 Lynne, suppose your manager was having an affair with one
    of your co-workers. Then your co-worker starts leaving early and
    you end up covering for them. Then their sick time increases. Then
    they get to take vacation days with little or no advance notice.
    (And you're still covering.) Then when you gripe about it you run
    into a wall. Still think it's nobody's business ?
    
    Dana (been there)

    	RE: .12  David
    
    	Something I noticed in your note (and I wondered if you were aware
    	of it...)
    
    	> A thousand women working hard, earning positions in management and 
    	> higher individual contributor positions -- all that honorable effort 
    	> to get ahead successfully, ethically -- made suspect by the unethical
    	> actions of one or two women employees who elect to have an affair 
    	> with a MARRIED manager in Digital.
    
    	Versus...
    
    	> ...I submit that if such a manager has no ethics in his home life, 
    	> like being faithful to his wife and not committing adultery, then is 
    	> it REALLY likely that this manager has any ethics in how he acts in 
    	> Digital, in how he treats his employees that are under him?  
    
    	You do realize, I hope, that a significant aspect of sexism is the
    	fact that a woman in this situation can discredit thousands of other
    	women (while the man in the same situation only discredits HIMSELF.)
    
    	When we get to the point where someone points out that the woman
    	in this situation will hurt her own career (and not the careers
    	of all other women,) we will have made significant progress in
    	the fight against sexism in the workplace.

    re .14:
    
    Lynne, it sets up a situation in which the other employees who work for
    this manager are at a disadvantage.  Therefore, it constitutes a form
    of sexual harassment (to them).  Also, when there is the ultimate
    breakup, it sets up a potentially bad situation between the former
    lovers which can carry over to the workplace.
    
    Don't sh*t where you eat,
    Marge
    
    

    Make the assumption that everyone involved is an adult.  By having
    (what appears to be) an affair they open themselves up to many
    problems.  Sexual harassment charges, poor management, loss of
    leadership, loss of respect, loss of marriage, loss of job.  We can
    only assume that both have thought of these things in making the
    decision to have a relationship.  

    Co-workers have relationships all the time.  (The singles notes file
    must have some success.)  Not everyone is on the same job level.  
    Alas, not everyone is single.

    I don't think it's wise for a manager of either sex to have an affair 
    with a report.  As for a married person having an affair.  Yeech! But
    that's their own business, not mine.

    As for the woman "sleeping her way up" that's silly.  Remember the
    question "If a woman could sleep her way to the top, why aren't there
    more women at the top?"   It doesn't work and damn few would bother to 
    try it.

Re: .14

It *was* my brother's business.  However, his business affected others in 
an adverse way, not to mention breaking a relationship to which he
committed himself.  Therefore, wasn't it also my brother's first wife's
business, too?

Open marriages with agreements may be one thing that permits one to pursue
their business without affecting others, but the job-related factors alone
make it a high-risk venture in terms of credibility to objectivity, and
the like.

It's kind of like smoking (no flames please - pun intended) where people
maintain one's right to fill their lungs with smoke but the right stops
when one's smoke invades another's right to smoke-free air.

That's why I used the term committed persons versus non-committed persons.

Perhaps my brother had the right to do as he chose.  Did his SO have the 
right to pursue an otherwise-committed (read that closed-marriage, in this 
case) man (rathole, and maybe another topic)?  Would it have been more 
or less acceptable, in terms of rights, if he pursued her?

People do what they choose, that's a fact.  Choices are made, sometimes with
external influences as the mitigating factor, some by other factors.  
What people choose to do is a great IF-THEN-ELSE statement; that is, there
will be a cause and effect; there will be consequences of the action (even
if nothing is the consequence).  My brother chose, and our time-lines are
as they are today because of it.

    How would the objections to the "affair" change if the woman was the
    manager and the man was the subordinate?

    I think that one of the biggest problems in this world is that too
    many people are too damn nosy about other people's private business.
     
    Re .18, (Brenda I think?), I agree with you, if it were truly possible
    to "sleep your way to the top" there'd probably be quite a few more
    female V.P.'s by this time!!!!  I don't think it works either. 
    Unless the couple happens to fall in love (as in Mark's ? brothers
    case), the more likely scenario is that the boss would shun the
    "lower level" female employee just to avoid gossip.  I bet more
    women who have slept with managers have been left by the wayside
    than have climbed the ladder of corporate success.  As I said, unless
    the couple happens to fall in love, I don't think sex is such a
    big deal to most men these days, that they are going to give any
    special favors to a lower level worker just because she may have
    slept with them.  The more likely scenario would probably be, "Oh,
    yes, I think I remember you.  What was your name again?"  
    
    So, I think the real problem may be *love* - not *sex.*  Sex simply
    is not that big a deal anymore.  So, the rule should be no one should
    fall in love with anyone who reports to them or whom they report
    to because it may bother other people. :-)  I really don't think
    this is one of the biggest problems that Digital faces today.
    
    I, also, think there is a difference between a "lower level" person
    having an affair with a high level person, and a "lower level" person
    having an affair with the person they report to.  What's the big
    deal if someone is a higher level is they aren't their boss?  People
    have to date someone - unless they're married or celebate.
    
    Basically, I agree with Lynn in .14.  I don't think it's anybody's
    damn business.
    
    Lorna
    

Yes, office affairs are not anyone else's business, except those who are
affected (that is, the two involved, other employees as a result of an affair, 
spouses and children, if any, if it becomes "public").  Then it becomes
their business because it affects them directly and personally.

If it a means for gossip or slander, it is none of anyone's business in what 
two consenting people engage.  And it is not someone's business to get involved
on behalf of the affected (let say fellow employees) -- or is it?

Mark 

>    I think that one of the biggest problems in this world is that too
>    many people are too damn nosy about other people's private business.
 
Hear, hear!!  You said it Lorna!

My opinion is that if two people are fully consensual (obviously if the
upper type was using his/her position to pressure the lower type it isn't
fully consensual) then they can do what they damn well please and it is
none of our business.

Yeah, it is risky.  But they are *adults*, and have the right to choose
their risks.  I wouldn't want someone telling me I couldn't ride my motorcycle
just because it is a high risk activity.

Also, this idea of it being unfair to other employees when the person in
the affair gets preferential treatment - it is a totally different issue.
It is fine if they are having an affair.  It is not fair or ethical if
the manager gives his/her sweetheart preferential treatment.  But there is
still nothing wrong with the affair.  The real rule shouldn't be "Managers
shouldn't have affairs with reports because it isn't fair to other 
employees" but "Managers who have affairs should be careful to be fair."
It isn't impossible.

[A nit that belongs in the language note, but I am thinking of it now:
non-monogamous relationships are *not* necessarily non-committed relationship.
Try to find a different, nonjudgemental word closed marriages/relationships.
Or, better yet, just refer to it as a closed marriage/relationship.]

D!

IMHO [and several personnel manuals as well -- not sure about DEC] when a 
relationship is formed between a manager and a report, business ethics require
that at least one of them transfer to another organisation so that fairness
cannot be even a whiff of an issue.

  Ann

    re.22
    
    Mark 
    
    I agree with you completely.  The affected people..yes it *is* their
    business.  The gossipers no it is not their business.
    
    
    Lynne S

    If I'm properly representing our instructor's comments at the recent
    Sexual Harassment seminar I attended in ZKO:  a manager/employee affair
    affects everyone in the group because it sets up an environment in
    which they (the non-participants) cannot freely express their concerns
    about a work issue, or assignments, etc.  There is a potential for
    defacto harassment of the non-participants.  [She said it much better.]
    
    mdh

    
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...and I bow to D!'s language of non-monogamous <> non-committed.

correction noted and I am a broader person for it.

:-)

Mark

P.S. it might be an interesting rathole to define the committed non-monogamous
person. I'll have to think it over....

    
    Sexism was not implied either in the base note or my reply dialogue.
    
    Indeed the situation of a female married manager having an affair with
    a lower level male employee is just as applicable.
    
    However, the fact of the matter is that the only examples of this I've
    observed have indeed been with male managers and lower level female
    employees.
    

    
    Re: .14 & .25
    
    I would like to agree with Lynne. If you have a fair manager, I don't
    think anyone should feel threatened if the manager chooses to have an
    affair with someone else in the group. As a matter of fact, if I was a
    manager in such a situation, I would go out of my way to make sure I
    was fair with everyone else, to prevent being accused of playing
    favorites.
    
    After reading the Processing Topic, I should say that the moderators
    may feel free to remove this reply if comments from men are not welcome
    here.
    
    Regards,
    Wes
    

    re: .29
    
    I have seen the opposite (female manager) situation which is why I
    asked the question.

    I cannot see how this 'fairness' can occur at all.  Does the manager
    make an announcement to all the group that his affair has nothing to do
    with work??  I doubt it.  I agree that adults are adults and its no one
    elses business but put yourself in the position of someone in the
    group.  How can you possibly know what its doing to the minds of the
    group as a whole?

    
    The following reply is from a member of our community who wishes to
    be anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
    
    ____________________________________________________________________
    
    
    
Bonnie,

Please add this note under the office affairs.  


I wanted to share my own experience with office affairs and I do feel that 
they effect those who work directing for the manager(s) involved. I felt that
two of the managers in my group were having an affair. I believe because of 
the affair that my working relationship with my manager had change
and I felt the dynamics of group changed and the objectivity of my manager 
was gone.  Also, being the secretary I had to have some contact with my
manager's wife which made me involve in this affair which I wanted nothing to
do with.  I don't care what other people do in their personal lives but I could 
no longer go to my manager with any of my concerns. I no longer work in this
group.