Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Probably more psychological than hormonal - feeling clumsy,
    unshapely, bloated, etc... 

    Yes, I think pregnancy could have something to do with this.  I
    remember times where for absolutely no reason I would lose control
    of my emotions when I was pregnant.  Be patient with your friend
    and remember we all have bad days.  Think of pregnancy as 9 months
    of PMS!!  ;-)
    

    Boy, does this sound familiar!
    
    I got very upset over some things that my friend said. We disagreed
    about something. It didn't grow into a full-fledged arguement because
    it was a long-distance phone call and I was paying for it and we'd
    already talked for an hour. So I just decided to change the topic.
    But she said some really nasty things and spoilt my weekend.
    
    Later someone suggested, it must be the hormones. She's 5 months
    pregnant. I'm hoping that's what it is. But somehow i suspected
    she really believes those things. It's going to be a while before
    I call her again

    I'm speaking from experience here.  I'm in my 8th month of pregnancy
    and I can honestly say that I get extremely bitchy alot of the time. 
    My boyfriend has even packed his bags several times threatening to
    leave me (he's never gotten as far as the door though!).  My friends
    tell me I have a really bad attitude, but in the same breath they say
    they know it's because I'm pregnant.  I've changed a lot in the past 7
    1/2 months, and hopefully, I'll change back after the baby is born.
    
    So, what I'm saying is, don't take her bitchiness personnally.  Stick
    by her, she needs her friends right now.  She'll get worse, especially
    right after the baby is born, but she will eventually be back to her
    old self.  It's just a matter of time.
    
    Lori B.

    
    Sort of another topic:
    
    I was wondering if there is even a reason to pursue this
    relationship and try to patch things up, because any girlfriend
    or acquaintance (and curiously, the same is *not* true of male
    friends who've had babies)  I've ever had who's had a baby basically
    disposes of all relationships except that of baby and husband as
    soon as the baby is born (unless I happen to work with the person
    and have social contact at work).
    
    And no, I don't have the patience to wait 5 or 10 years until
    the mother has more time for a friendship.  Friendship is *also*
    a commitment.
    
    Anyone else have this happen?
    
    Comments?
    

    I don't think pregnancy (or PMS) is an excuse for abusive behavior.

    From when *I* was pregnant, 17 years ago....yep, it's the pregnancy.
    It won't completely go away when the baby is born, 'cause then you
    get into sleep deprivation and total disruption of previous lifestyle
    and a need to build a new one.  I was a flaming bitch when pregnant,
    without really understanding why, and without *wanting* to be. 
    Just happened, 'cause nothing about how I thought my body worked
    was true anymore, I was scared out of my mind that I wouldn't be
    able to cope with what was coming, couldn't admit that to anyone
    'cause mommies-to-be are looking forward to getting the adorable
    bundle, generally feeling conflicted and confused and isolated and
    "nobody understands".  Real stew of negatives, put on top of hormonal
    changes, makes for weird reactions.
    
    Try to be patient with her, agree or keep silent when weird stuff
    happens, and love her for her faults.
    
    Alison

Re: .5 

I agree that having children changes things a lot.  When Joy and I got married,
(at 19) we lost contact with many of our single friends, but it was our
single friends who didn't have the time (curiously).

Like .7 says, having a child changes a lifestyle and our lifestyle has changed
5 times from single, to couple, to threesome, to foursome, to fivesome,
and sixsome.  Each one was a big change (well, the difference between 3 and 
4 kids wasn't that big (yet)).

As for the lack of friendship, please remember that your friend now has
to subdivide her time commitments now and babies/children demand a lot
of attention which means that friendships have longer breaks between
meetings.  I hope it is only the amount of time your friend doesn't have
to commit to your friendship, instead of an attitude change towards you;
and try not to confuse the diaper-bag, stroller, bottles, and what-not
carrying and conversation with disinterest in you - it is just that the
child has come to the forefront of attention. (I can remember gathering 
together with friends, most had children and were gabbing about the various 
escapades of their little geniuses; the childless couple had no common 
base to enter into the conversation.  I felt badly for them.  Of course, 
diapers are not my favorite subject anyway. I started a different conversation 
with them.)

I don't have an answer.  It has saddened me over the years to see some of
my friends fade into the background, though my door has always been wide
open.  Some have stuck it through, despite the changes in my family
structure, new addresses, and career changes.  These are my life friends
and I treasure them.

    
    Yes, I think it is the pregnancy, especially the first one. 
    Around 7 months, things go down hill. I mean, during the first
    6 months, one can still feel physically good, emotionally excited
    etc. During the last 3 months, one gets really uncomfortable, one
    gets big, one thinks one's ugly, one gets very nervous, one gets tired
    easily, etc.  So, don't pay too much attention to the bitchness for now,
    I don't think your friend meant to be abusive. It is strange what
    hormones can do...
    
    About the friendship, I still keep in touch with my friends who
    don't have kids. Of course, my kid's welfare is the most important,
    but I still do things during the day with people at work (lunch
    out, work out, tennis, etc) and sometimes I take a day off 
    (leave the kid in daycare) and go out with my girlfriends. 
    I think it takes new parents a while to adjust to parenthood,
    and once they've settled in, they'll find themselves more comfortable 
    to do things for themselves.
    There are a lot of things old friends can still do togethers
    like lunching out, shopping, small casual dinner parties, a game of
    tennis, a ski trip, etc. All this can be arranged easily. It takes
    some compromise, but friends should caring and compromising, right?
    
    
    	Eva

    Nobody I know who's been pregnant has been "bitchy," although they
    were all chronically exhausted, especially months 7-9.  There's been a
    spate of 'em, too -- I know 5 people who have given birth in the last 6
    months!  Compare that to NONE before!
    
    About keeping in touch after the kids arrive -- I've found a great way: 
    offer to BABYSIT.  LOTS.  That way, they get a break from the newborn,
    you get a chance to see what all the fuss is about, and the parents and
    you forge a different kind of bond.  
    
    Pam

    I also think that pregnancy can have a strong affect on someone's
    behavior.  When I was pregnant I didn't get bitchy, but I became
    more sensitive than I've ever been, before or after, in my life.
     (But, that's how I react to PMS, too.  I don't get bitchy, I just
    feel hurt by almost everything anyone says or does that isn't extremely
    nice!)  When I was pregnant I cried at the least hint of imagined
    insult.  One day when I was 7 mos. pregnant, I was leaving a small
    store with a grocery bag, when a man in front of me let the door
    slam in my face.  It was rude I guess, but I was so upset by it
    that I went home and cried about what a cruel world it is when men
    slam doors in the face of pregnant women carrying grocery bags.
     I quit my job when I was 6 months pregnant, too, because it had
    gotten to the point that a day didn't go by that a co-worker or
    my supervisor didn't make me cry!  I remember that I felt helpless
    to control this emotional behavior, too.  (For me it went away as
    soon as she was born though because I was so delighted with what
    I got - a healthy, pretty, smart daughter.)
    
    But, from the other side of the story, I remember a day last spring
    when I went to get on an elevator and had just barely started to
    step back when a pregnant woman in back of me snapped in my ear,
    "Watch where you move!  I'm pregnant!"  I was so startled I almost
    went through the roof and remember thinking she was a real jerk.
     I also remember another pregnant co-worker snapping at me for no
    reason in the past couple of years, too.  That woman offended me
    so much I never spoke to her again, to be honest.  But, she transfered
    shortly after that.  I still don't really like her though. She wasn't
    a friend anyway, though.
    
    So, I can see Ellen's side, too.  It's really offensive to have
    someone yell obscenities over the phone even if the other person
    has a good excuse.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I agree with everyone who says that yes it could be the pregnancy - i
    know how she feels!!
    
    I would advise that you don't allow a gap to develop in the friendship,
    sure she was in the wrong, but if we can't forgive our friends after 10
    years, whoa nd when can we?
    
    I'd say to phone her in the near future and get it all out in the open,
    tell her you didn't like what she said, hopefully she'll apologise,
    then take it from there.
    
    I guess we all value true friends, but even they are human too - give
    her another try!!
    
    Chris   :-)
    

    A pregnancy can alter one's metabolism, or change our temper but is
    never justified for abusive behavior, the person, not the pregnancy is
    guilty of that.  Sure that my behavior have changed with my three
    pregnancies, but thanks God, have been for the better... I get much
    more loving, agreeable, funny, active, when I am pregnant than when I
    am not, I thoroughly enjoy life when I have life within me!
    Abusive behavior does not have a justified place, I think
    
    

Re: 14

Moderators, 
maybe make this a note on its own?

Pregnancy tips.

For example, my wife swears by red respberry leaf tea during pregnancy 
to help against nausea, and it is said to help in a smoother delivery.
Why?  I don't know, but it seemed to work for her, if only psychosomatic.

Mark

    Mark,
    
    Have her add in half as much blackberry leaves and milfoil (yarrow)
    leaves, and a pinch of cinnamon.
    
    							Ann B.

Re: .16

Thanks, Ann.  Joy wanted all of our children before she turned 30.  She did.
Therefore, your welcome advice is too late.  Four is enough for us. %^)

But I'll have to pass along the recipe to my pregnant friends.

Does it make for better taste, or a better concoction?  And does anyone
know *why* the concoction works?

Mark

    RE: .5
    
    Yes, it's worth it to "bother"!  Are you waiting for these friends to
    call you?  Trust me - they don't have the time or energy!  And I'm
    single and childless, in case you're wondering.
    
    *You* will have to do the calling for a while.  So what?  I know my
    friends who are parents are tired and busy with the tremendous
    responsibility of raising small people.  And I don't call them
    regularly.  Our lives go in opposite directions.  That doesn't mean
    that we're not friends.  The minute we're together, it's as if there
    was never a gap.  In many ways we're closer than ever, just because we
    *did* bother to stay in touch after such a major change in lifestyles.
    
    Staying in touch doesn't mean seeing each other regularly.  It means
    talking on the phone at a reasonable hour (i.e., after the kids are in
    bed, but not too late - that takes timing!).  It means sending them
    funny cards every so often.  It means offering to baby sit so they can
    go out and renew their relationship (which usually suffers far more
    than friendships!).  It means inviting them to your home, and making
    the child(ren) welcome, no matter how many interruptions there may be. 
    It means offering to pay for a baby sitter, so she can go shopping with
    you or have lunch with you without the kid(s).
    
    Every October I have a Halloween party for my nieces, nephew, and the
    children of my friends.  Last year I had twelve kids between 18 months
    and 11 years old!  They are all welcome in my home, I remain close (and
    get closer) to their mothers, and have formed a bond that can never be
    broken.  The kids yell, squeal, and laugh hysterically (and
    occasionally one might cry), and I say, "So what?!  They're at Auntie
    Sue's!  If my neighbors have the nerve to complain about a daytime
    party, I'll tell them off (which I say with a smile - they haven't
    complained in five year!)!"
    
    Make them all welcome, be patient, and don't expect her to invite you
    over very often - she'll usually be too nervous about the mess and too
    exhausted to entertain.  It doesn't mean she doesn't value the
    friendship and appreciate you!  It *is* worth it!!!
    
    
    Susan
    
    PS:  With regard to .0, I've been "lucky" and mostly had weepers, not
    bitchers.  I can tell you that if one of my friends said that to me,
    and had never said anything like it before, I wouldn't be angry, and I
    wouldn't feel abused.  I would be worried about behavior out of
    character and I wouldn't wait for her to make the first move.  What if
    she's so embarassed she said that, she's afraid to call you?  (This is
    not to say that I wouldn't feel hurt when she said it - I would just
    try not to dwell on that feeling.)

    re:.14
    
    Hey Susan,
    
    Would you like a babysitting job? My kids would love you. We all love
    Halloween too!
    
    Kate

>   .0  
>   Does the fact that she is 7 months pregnant 

I've gained 20 pounds in the last few months.
My energy and patience are both a lot lower. 
In fact, I snapped at someone recently for a 
really minor irritation. Surprised both of us.

    Ellen, don't let all these responses make you think that _all_ pregnant
    ladies are bitchy. You haven't heard any screaming from my office, have
    you? 

    As for the situation with your friend... I like the advice one of the
    earlier replies gave... Where she normally isn't like that, give her a
    call in the near future, express your feelings and see if maybe, the
    situation was an isolated incident.

    Let by gones be by gones and give her another chance. At least YOU are
    in control of your senses, in a way, she is limited in the control she
    has with hers.

    By the way, if you have general questions regarding first time
    pregnancies, you know which cube I'm in. You wouldn't BELIEVE
    the changes a body goes through. And I'm only in my fifth month!!

    Norma

    
    Well, thanks for the responses.  We patched things up shortly
    after this incident.  I wrote the base note just after it happened,
    so I was still upset.
    
    I guess I was feeling cynical when I wrote the second note about
    losing friends once their first babies are born.  The fact is that
    this friend is my closest friend to be pregnant yet and I think we'll
    still see each other.  Also, I think she's more tuned in to other
    people and how friendships are supposed to work than a lot of
    people I've known (who are no longer friends), so I'm hopeful.
    

re: NO!! Pregnancy DOES NOT equal BITCHY-NESS!!!

>    Ellen, don't let all these responses make you think that _all_ pregnant
>    ladies are bitchy. You haven't heard any screaming from my office, have
>    you? 

I agree!!  I find myself feeling very angry with the way people in general
treat pregnant women.  Maybe you call that bitchy--I don't.  I haven't told
anyone off yet, but I'm getting close.  You have to understand that all of
a sudden, you've become public property--the most intimate, personal part of
your life is now on display for the world.  You're no longer considered a
woman; you are now a *pregnant* woman.  It feels like you have absolutely no
control over your body or your life anymore--and you can't ever go back to 
being the person that you once were, physically or emotionally.

I think we need to establish a support group for women who are experiencing
the emotional and physical stresses of pregnancy.  Any comments?

ann

    Sure the public is more aware of a pregnant woman, it _does_ get pretty
    obvious after a while. But, I have found that most reactions are
    favorable. No one has lectured me on what to do, what to eat, etc.

    Having no control over your body or your life, that's two completely
    different subjects. Granted, you don't have much control over your
    body changes, but you definitely have control of your life! It will
    never be the same as it once was, but I'm looking forward to the
    changes. I've been told that children are the greatest gift you can
    receive. Sure there are trials and tribulations, but the majority of
    people I've talked to , could not imagine life without their children.

    I won't need a support group to get trough my pregnancy, but I am
    fortunate enough to have a very supportive husband and family on both
    sides that are there for me when/if I need them. There may be woman
    that need some support and I would be there for them if they needed me.

    Just my humble opinion,
    Norma

    Norma
    
    I must admit I'm amazed!  You've had NO LECTURES during pregnancy???
    
    Although I realize it comes out of human kindness and an obvious
    concern, as soon as people have realized I'm pregnant, out have come
    the tips, advice and Lectures!!  mainly from mothers whose children are
    as old as myself, that don't realize that maternity care has, well,
    moved on!!
    
    How did you avoid it???
    
    Chris   :-)
    

I bet you a quarter it's her personality. I wouldn't think of lecturing Norma
for a minute :-).
	Mez

    
    Well, I feel mighty bitchy in the last couple of days.
    My back is hurting, my nose is all stuffed up because of the
    allergies, the weather is so hot, stuff at work is piling up, 
    I am getting tired easily, etc ,etc. 
    And I can't do much about it!!! I am being very careful not to
    chew anybody's head off!!! 3 more months to go, I am getting annoyed!
    
    Eva 
    

    Well, Chris, I guess I should consider myself lucky. People have told
    me their stories and have made suggestions, but no one has told me that
    this is the things you should be doing blah, blah, blah...

    I _do_ get occasional "comments" regarding the fact that I'm still
    smoking (cigarettes). But even then, they state their opinion, in which
    they are entitled. I just tell them that I _know_ I should quit, but I
    haven't been successful yet. They hear that I'm trying, cutting down and
    that's that.

    Now Mez... I'm not really sure how to take that comment, but, YOU can
    lecture me all you want... I'll just let it go in one ear and out the
    other!!! :-) Wake me up when you are through.

    Norma

_Exactly_ Norna! :-)
	Mez

From the base note:

>    She was upset over something that she told me about on the phone,
>    I had a different perspective, and explained some things she hadn't
>    thought of (she didn't want to hear this).  So I disagreed with her
>    and told her why.  We both raised our voices at the other, but it
>    was very clear she was very upset.
>    
>    I was taken aback over it, waited a second, and said, "Gosh,
>    you're really upset, itt must be a bad day for you."
>    
>    She yelled at me, "SHUT THE FUCK UP, ELLEN!!"
>    
>    My immediate response was to slam the phone down.


I can not speak about the possibly raging hormones of pregnancy, never having 
been pregnant, but I can speak about my emotional response to this conversation.

If I was upset (upset enough to raise my voice!), and someone said to me,
"Gosh, Tamar, you're really upset, it must be a bad day for you,"  I would
hear the statement as condenscension (here's someone trying to tell me why
I feel what I feel).  And, it would make me angry.

In a (removed, but maybe this is clearer) sense, it's like the time I was
clearly and concisely arguing for a certain direction at a meeting and
the person I was disagreeing with came back with, "Gee, Tamar, you're not
so pretty when you're angry."   It was irrelevant to the conversation, yet
it served it's purpose: it was a red herring, designed to side track me.

I think the statement that provoked the pregnant woman's response ("it must
be a bad day for you") tried to move the conversation away from whatever was
being discussed.   However, I think the pregnant woman *was* upset about the
original topic -- and became understandably (to me) angry over being told
she wasn't upset about the original topic, but was only upset because she
had had a bad day.

The hormones might enter the picture by a) the magnitude of the expression 
of that anger or b) why the pregnant woman was upset about the original
topic.

Another opinion...

Tamar