Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    For more on this topic, please see also....
    
    Womannotes-V1
    257  feminist thealogy
    318  beliefs in early civilizations
    
    Womannotes-V2
    84   beliefs in early civilizations, rev.
    
    Religion
    112  from whence comes the goddess?
    
    
    -Jody
    

    
	discovering the goddess

    long, long time ago i was reading in =wn1= and came across a discussion 
    of 'beliefs in early civilizations', compliments of ann broomhead and 
    peggy leedberg. it was interesting in general, but what struck me was a 
    mention of the symbolism of scarecrows: that they are effigies of a 
    'ritual king' who is killed at the end of his reign as 'consort of the 
    goddess'; rather than a device to frighten birds, it was a symbol of 
    regeneration through death. a light went off over my head. first of all, 
    scarecrows had never seemed particularly good at scaring crows so this 
    explanation of their function made a lot more sense. second of all, i was 
    reminded of another 'king' who was stuck on a stick and was a symbol of 
    regeneration through death. whoa... something very profound here...
    
    so i started reading things like walker's 'encyclopedia' and 'the chalice
    and the blade' and 'when god was a woman' (authors names can be found 
    elsewhere). and i kept coming across explanations of things that made 
    'more sense', and that seemed to have been 'twisted' to fit traditional
    christian dogma. for example, the trinity of 'father, son, holy ghost'
    seems rather forced compared with the elegance and obviousness of 'virgin,
    mother, crone'.

    furthermore, as i read more about ancient cultures, i came to appreciate
    the 'power of myth' (as someone else has called it). i was brought up in
    the congregational church which does not believe in 'literal 
    interpretation' of the bible. we were always taught that at least some 
    parts of the bible were myth. but we never really discussed what 'myth' 
    was. i'm sure i still don't really understand the full implications of 
    myth, but i do know that it's something deeper than 'history' and more 
    powerful than 'fiction', though in some sense it's both. for example, it 
    seems clear to me, comparing the 'history' with the 'myth', that at some 
    time in the past, the ancient cultures of europe were run in a way that 
    at least in some ways was very women-centered and women-valuing and that 
    these cultures were forcibly overturned by other cultures that were more 
    patriarchal. beyond any question of whether this shift of power was a 
    good thing or a bad thing, the 'story' of that disruption exists in myths 
    from adam and eve to the overthrowing of the titans.

    a few years before, i had become a quaker (those most dogma-free of 
    christians) and had already disposed with the idea that there was only 
    *one* true spiritual path (one of the major traits of traditional 'god'
    religions). so i was ready to question the entirety of christian
    tradition and symbolism. i found christianity to be an odd 'death cult',
    focused on some abstract world after, disconnected from the simple 
    miracles of life here and now. i looked at the 'alternate' interpretations 
    (the 'goddess', if you will) and found a sense of awe and respect for life 
    and a 'connectedness' with the most primal elements of human existence.

    i no longer consider myself a christian (a difficult thing to come to grips
    with) or a quaker. i find thinking of the goddess as being a better way to
    deal with that aspect of life which for lack of a better name we call
    'spirituality'. 

    Hi all. I would certainly appreciate it if someone could put in a
    recommended reading list by title and author. I've tried to find
    something about this in the various bookstores in Nashua and have never
    been able to come across them. What I am particularly interested in is
    modern forms of worship where the Supreme Being is considered to be
    female. I have look to through the discussions in V2 and these seem to
    mostly concern themselves with historical occurences of Goddess
    worship. Any help and recommendations would be most appreciated.
    
                               Thanks in advance,
    
                               Phil

Try the Spriral Dance by Starhawk for a look from a
practioner/teacher.

For a look at Goddess religions in America today, try Drawing Down the
Moon, by Margot Adler.


john

    The Spiral Dance by Starhawk (just out in new revised edition)
    Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler
    The Grandmother of Time by Z Budapest
    The Woman's Book of Mysteries by Z Budapest
    Wicca for the Solitary Proactioner by ??? but published by LLwellyn
    	Press
    The ABC's of Witchcraft by Doris Valente (?)(I'm not sure if this is
    	the right author)
    What Witches Do (title is similar) by Stewart Farrar
    
    
    Lots of these contain a bibliography or recommended reading list at the
    back for more choices.

    re .4 and .5. THank you very much. THese will get me started. Providing
    that I can find them in Nashua. I belive that I've seen the last two
    from .5's list in Lauriat's in the Pheasant Lane Mall and there are a
    couple of New Age shops in town that may carry the others.
    
    Again, very appreciated.
    
    Phil

I have been trying to read up on what Goddess worship was like in Celtic
Ireland, or with the Picts, etc, mostly before Christianity.  I am finding
it difficult, however.  "The Serpent and the Goddess" mostly talks about
Christianity, with a little Goddess worship stuck in every so often.
I have purchased "The Spiral Dance" and looked at some other books on
modern worship, but can anyone recommend some good books on how it was
so long ago?

          Carol

    The Great Cosmic Mother by Monica Sjoo has a lot of information
    on early goddess worship in Europe, though not specifically on
    Celts in Ireland.  I was fascinated by the information on 
    Scweden and Norway,  where official Christianity came late.
    
    Goddesses and Gods of Ancient Europe by M. Gimbutes is a scholarly
    work on the archaelogical evidence of early goddess worship, going
    back to neolithic times. (The first edition was titled Gods and
    Goddesses of Early Europe).
    
    Pat
    

    Carol,
    
    You can probably find out something by working your way back through
    studies of `Saint' Brigit of Ireland.  As the Triple Goddess, she had
    a shrine at Kildare, a grove at Derry Down, and her feast day was
    February 1st, or Imbolc.  (Taken from _The_Woman's_Encyclopedia_of_
    _Myths_and_Secrets_ by Barbara Walker.)
    
    							Ann B.

<    You can probably find out something by working your way back through
<    studies of `Saint' Brigit of Ireland.  As the Triple Goddess, she had

I know that she was the Goddess, but don't understand what I can learn from
this, and what it means to "work my way back".  Can you elaborate on this?

       Carol

    Carol,
    
    Partly, this means finding some book(s) which discusses Brigit, then
    using its bibliography and citations to find other books.  (This
    technique suffers from a handicap: You can't find a reference to
    any newer works.  Talk about aggravating.)  Also, you pay attention
    to the mention of physical sites, particular rituals, and interesting
    characteristics in the book, then you look up each of *them*, in
    hopes that they will give you more information, or point you to yet
    other sources.
    
    							Ann B.

	Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" is a good place to
	start if you want to understand what it was like before the
	Christians were the rulers.

	There is also the standard myths and stories that one can take
	a fresh look at - from a different angle Cinderella looks 
	different.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			One does not worship the Goddess
			One has the Goddess within

<	Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" is a good place to
<	start if you want to understand what it was like before the
<	Christians were the rulers.

I reread it recently for just that purpose.  It is the best so far.

Ann, thanks for the explanation.  I'm too lazy for all that work now, but 
maybe in the future...  :-}

            Carol (whose interest is both because of her FRP character and 
		     personal)

    Carol and Ann
    
    I've read "Mists of Avalon" three times at least and the ending
    still makes me cry.
    
    I definitely recommend it tho.
    
    Bonnie

    Following is from the prologue of the book "The Dance of the Spirit", by
    Marcia Harris...
    
    Just reading the flavor of some more female aspects of religion gives
    me goosebumps......it's so warm and welcoming...
    
    "For almost two decades, as a teacher and eduator, I have had the
    privilege of talking with women fromaround the world about a quiet
    revolution.  That revolution is the rebirth of a genuine women's
    spirituality, which takes seriously the major issues in women's lives
    and the major elements in women's daily experience:  issues such as
    brokenness, connection, and power; elements such as love, work, and
    death.  As our conversations have progressed, I have become convinced
    that, although they touch us in different ways, certain themes are
    common to us all and certain questions are sedimented in our souls. 
    And out of that conviction I have realized that the fundamental way of
    responding to these themes and questions is twofold.
    
    First we must reshape and redesign the undersong of our lives - the
    innerness of our lives - according to a form and a framework that
    allows us to live and questions, love the questions, dance the
    questions.  And second, we must pause, rest, and reflect, allowing
    ourselves the unhurried time brought by silence, prayer, and
    contemplation in order to help our spirituality flourish.  I this
    prologue, I will describe the way I propose to help do this by
    introducing the framework of the book, the steps in the spirit's
    choreography, the partner in our dance, and the shape of each
    chapter...
    

    
    re .6
    
    Minor correction: The author's name is Gimbutas.
    
    Bo

    The only book that I could find, so far is 10th annivesary edition of
    The Spiral Dance. I bought it on Saturday and have read the
    introduction and first 2 chapters. I have glanced through the rest and
    have found the bibliography seems to contain many more books that I'll
    want to read. I like what she has to say about perfect love and perfect
    trust. A goal we should all strive for but one, I fear, that will never
    be truly attainable in our current lifetimes. 
    
    Interestingly, to me anyway, one of my favorite fantasy books discusses
    much of what she has to say. So far, at least. I'm trying to think of
    the name. It's by Katharine Kurtz and is a historical/fantasy about
    WWII and using Witchcraft and the sacrifice of the Divine King to keep
    the Nazis from invading. Some of the initiation rites seem similar and
    the concepts of sacrifice, the 13 member coven, the incarnation of the
    Goddess and the Horned God and others are all written from the point of
    view of someone who has either studied the Craft or is a practioner
    herself. Anyone able to answer this. 
    
    I've read this novel at least twenty times and it still draws me back
    again and again.  I'll dig it out of the book box and post the title
    here tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it.
    
                              Phil

    Katherine Kurtz also wrote a series of books positvely steeped
    in catholicism.  Does this mean she's catholic?
    
    Let's not assume  every fantasy writer who uses magik and
    spirituality as themes in their books is involved in wicca.

re.7 Carol

If you are looking for an easier entry, _The_White_Raven_ by Diana Paxson might
shed some light.  It is a retelling of the Tristan & Iseult story from the
point of view of Bronwen, the White Raven.

A lot of the old Celtic ways, specifically Eire & Lyonesse, play a significant
part in the story.  As with _The_Mists_of_Avalon_, the contrast between the old
ways and the new and how the new 'absorb' and change the old is a running theme.

One of the occasions in which this conflict is brought to the fore is a 
pilgrimage to Brigit's Well.

  Ann

    re.19 I was not making a statment that she was a practioner. I was
    asking if she was. I wouldn't make that assumption of anyone. I went
    back and reread my note and yes the statement I made is obscure. I
    apologize if you or anyone else misinterpreted it.
    
                             Phil

    Well, yes, Katherine Kurtz is (or at least was) Catholic.
    
    						Ann B.

    Thank you, Ann. I was wondering. I haven't read any of her other books.
    I assume the Catholic based ones and again, this is only my assumption
    are the St. Camber books. 
    
    Phil

    
    the seattle international film festival will be showing a documentary
    about the goddess this coming thursday and saturday. details to follow
    (when i can find the brochure)
    

The latest (I think it's the latest--fall/winter 1990) issue of "Woman of
Power: A Magazine of Feminism, Spirituality, and Politics" is devoted to
the theme The Faces of the Goddess. It includes an interview with Marija
Gimbutas and an article by Merlin Stone (author of When God Was a Woman).
Also an article on the Morrigan (a Celtic goddess) by Barbara Mor,
co-author of The Great Cosmic Mother; and an article on the Shekhinah by
Rabbi Leah Novick. 

Dorian

    
    'the goddess remembered'
    (canada, dir: donna read)
    
    this provocative documentary traces the history of the ancient goddess
    civilizations that flourished before the emergence of patriarchy 4,000
    years ago. the goddess tradition is shown through journeys to malta,
    crete and the english countryside, to the temples, ceremonial mounds
    and consecrated areas where the female deities were worshipped and
    revered by peaceful matri-focal civilizations. shown with a short
    'salamander'
    
    may 17 5pm egyptian theatre
    may 19 5pm harvard exit theatre
    
    

    Clarification, please:  I notice that one of the reading lists for
    information on Goddess-based beliefs includes several books about
    witchcraft.
    
    What is the connection between Goddess worship and witchcraft?
    
    Karen

    
    it is my understanding that after the beginning of the christian era,
    anything associated with non-christian or pre-christian traditions
    were considered the work of the devil (interestingly enough, our
    common image of the devil, horns and all, has its root in the old
    'horned god' who was part of the 'goddess pantheon'). specifically,
    anything associated with the goddess was considered 'witchcraft'. 
    often 'witches' continued some tradition, say of healing or childbirth
    or astronomy, that christianity had tried to stamp out.
    
    [one of the most compelling things i've learned in reading about the
    goddess, is that the early christians, far from being the great
    preservers of knowledge (as i had always been taught), were possibly
    the greatest book-burners and knowledge detroyers of all time]
     

    Thanks for that explanation.  Now, I may be opening myself to ridicule,
    but you must understand that I'm coming from the position of a
    disenchanted Protestant Christian background, searching for spiritual
    truth, and becoming curious about Goddess worship.  I'll admit right up
    front that I haven't done much reading on the subject, though I've
    followed several peripherally related strings in =wn= V2.
    
    OK, my concern is that the modern day resurgence of "devil worship,"
    sometimes linked (at least in the minds of the press) to the practice 
    of witchcraft, that we read about in the newspapers (you know,
    when there are gory details to give about satanic rites involving
    animal sacrifices, sexual acts with children, etc.) MIGHT somehow be 
    related to the modern day resurgence of interest in Goddess worship.
    
    By exploring the latter can I expect to come into contact with the 
    former?
    
    I'll admit to being uncomfortable about this possibility, probably a
    hold over from the strict and very fundamentalist religious instruction
    I received from day one.
    
    Karen

    Karen,

>    OK, my concern is that the modern day resurgence of "devil worship,"
>    sometimes linked (at least in the minds of the press) to the practice 
>    of witchcraft, that we read about in the newspapers (you know,
>    when there are gory details to give about satanic rites involving
>    animal sacrifices, sexual acts with children, etc.) MIGHT somehow be 
>    related to the modern day resurgence of interest in Goddess worship.
 
   
>    By exploring the latter can I expect to come into contact with the 
>    former?
 
    
    Tho I have no direct experience with goddess worship it is my
    understanding that 'wicca' or what may be here referred to as
    'witch craft' has nothing to do with the satanism, animal sacrifices
    etc. that you mentioned in the above character.
    
    I do not believe that by exploring goddess worship you'd come into
    contact with 'the former'.
    
    Bonnie

    No. Devil worship and this odball Satan-ism that some of the kids
    are fooling around with , has nothing to do with the Goddess. 
    
    Satan is a creation of the Christian church, not of the Pagans. What
    I know of Wicca and Goddess-related stuff is that it is a
    nature-oriented, fairly "gentle" (my word) practice. It doesn't concern
    itself with bizarre sacrifice, etc. All that gory stuff is a perversion
    of (well, everything sensible) and was started (my opinion) by sickos
    of whatever time and place.
    
    Ann B? You there? You know about this stuff - anything to add?
    
    DEJAVU notes has good info on this, too...
    
    --DE
    

    if there's any magic at all to wicca and any related goddess-worship
    that one might look into based on this string, it's white magic as 
    far as I know...
    
    I mean, of course, there are some evil goddesses, but that's not the
    goddess I think most of us are talking about here.
    
    -Jody
    

    The following was sent to me directly in reply to my inquiry about
    the relationship of satanism and witchcraft to Goddess worship.

    The author has given me permission to enter it into the file
    anonymously.  The informaton it contains certainly makes me feel
    much more comfortable about exploring Goddess worship!

                                    -=-=-=-=-
    
    Karen,

    Since there is still a great deal of prejudice about this sort of thing
    in the world, I have chosen to reply via mail instead of in =wn= directly.

    I have been involved in Wicca and the Craft/Goddess religions for about
    20 years now.  I have been initiated as a Priestess in a couple of
    traditions.

    I am currently the New England head of a Gnostic ceremonial order.

    I have also known (closely) members of and members of the priesthood of
    self-proclaimed "Satanic" orders such as Anton Levay's Church of Satan
    and Michael Aquino's Temple of Set.

    ***NEVER*** even among the self-proclaimed Satanists have I ***EVER***
    in 20 years time seen ***ANY*** incidence or evidence of incidence
    involving human or animal sacrifice or of ritual sexual abuse of
    children.  Never.  FWIW, such things are never condoned by any
    legitimate (including Satanic) western non-christian tradition.

    (I'm being very careful here; some Carribean/South American traditions
    such as Voudoun and Santeria (both with African traditional roots) do
    have a history of sacrificing chickens or doves during certain of their
    rituals.  Having eaten both chicken and squab, not being vegetarian, I
    don't feel I really have the right to criticize these people provided
    they are humane and eat the chicken afterward.  This is the *only*
    example of animal sacrifice I have found, excepting Judaism (read the 
    Old Testement for Hebraic sacrificial practices.))

    As other responses have indicated, almost all Wicca and related groups
    (incidently, groups who are composed strictly of wimmin and who worship
    only/mostly the female aspect of the deity (as opposed to adding in
    the horned god or other male consort to the goddess) are often referred
    to as Diannic Wiccan) are gentle, environmentally conscious, nurturing
    people who are devoted to healing the Earth, Gaia the Mother.

    For a good intro to Goddess worship in a more traditional (and perhaps
    more comfortable for one raised in a conservative religious
    environment) setting, call your local Unitarian Universalist church,
    and attempt to locate a nearby parish which is sponsoring the Cakes For
    The Queen of Heaven workshop - a very nice intro to women's
    spirituality.

    Bright Blessings,
    Anon.

    Check out both ZENDIA::DEJAVU and SMURF::RELIGION for more info on
    paganism, neo-paganism, Wicca and witchcraft.
    
    Most pagans and modern witches worship a duality (or pantheon) of both
    male and female forces. Some emphasize the female more than the male
    and a few (Dianic) witches exclusively worship a female diety. Goddess
    worship is witchcraft. What the media touts as witchcraft is usually a
    form of Satanism, which most/all pagans consider a Christian religion.
    Satanism is absolutely not paganism (except possibly to Christians) and
    wouldn't exist except for Christianity.
                                                    
    Tamzen

    
    For more on paganism, wicca, etc, See also:
    
    Religion
    7 - and then there's paganism
    14 - pagan prose, postry, and story telling
    56 - paganism, islam, and christianity
    267 - pagan news
    
    Womannotes-V2
    873 - Wicca
    
    UU
    164 - paganism
    
    Dejavu topics 88, 710, 496, and 1048 mention paganism and wicca, but
    don't discuss them in depth...fwiw
    
    -Jody
    

    The word "witch" has its root in the term "wicce", meaning wisdom,
    wit, or life.  (As in the Yorkshire reassurance: Dinna thee fash
    thasel', 'tis wick.)  So it's not surprising that all the definitions
    given center around life and understanding.  :-)
    
    						Ann B.

... which it should not be.  Yes, there are some <personal value judgement 
 alert> weird cults out and about that dabble in ritual sacrifice the like of
which I do not care to get into.  But neither they nor the Satanists are pleased
with the catch-all grouping.

When it became necessary for me to study them, I did.  It was _most_ unpleasant,
but it was helpful.

_None_ of them, not a single one, claimed as either deity or source of power
the Goddess -- or _a_ goddess for that matter.

    RE: .29

    An understandable worry but not to worry.  Studying the Goddess is not
    going to make you a satanist.

    Many Christian holy people and holy places were originally of the
    Goddess.  First off, realize that until the reformation, Christianity
    was what we now call the Catholic Church.  So, many early Christians
    site are now Catholic sites and early Christian saints (holy or blessed
    people) are now Catholic.  For the sake of ease, I use the word
    Christian to include Catholic.

    The three facets of Mary the mother of Christ are an analogy to the
    virgin, mother and crone of the Goddess.  The crone is Mary at the
    cross, a widow, her childbearing over.

    It has already been mentioned that St. Brigit is a Christian variant on
    Brigit the goddess of Ireland.  Also, in Norway, the shrine to St. Olav
    is on the site of the ancient well of the goddess.  Olav is the title
    Druids used for those of highest learning and wisdom.  Christians
    pilgrimaged to the well for healing and baptized their children in its
    waters.

    In France (and throughout Europe) many of the cathedrals and  churches
    dedicated to Mary are built on ancient pre-Christian holy sites. 
    Archaeological digs at Chartres go back over three-thousand years,
    pre-dating the Romans. It was a holy place to the goddess.

    Worship of Christ became more popular and the holy places changed focus
    but did not lose their sacredness. Since early Christians saw
    sacredness in the sites dedicated to the Goddess  it is reasonable to
    infer they did not see evil.   I think that if the early Christians saw
    no harm and danger in the places then they saw no harm in the people
    and  practices that had earlier occupied the sites.  

    Burning witches (and the suppression of the Goddess) did  not happen
    until long after.  In the beginning of Christianity, the Son lovingly
    accepted the gifts of the Mother.  

Someone mentioned voodoo as a possible "devil-worship" religion.  When I was
in New Orleans I happened across Priestess Ava Kay Jones at the Pharmaceutical
Museum.  I asked for some information about voo-doo and I received a one page
flyer of information.  I was struck by the similarity of this flyer to one
that is handed out by Laurie Cabot (?), the official witch of Salem, Mass.
Here is the text of the voodoo flyer:

		On "VOODOO"

In the midst of all the confusion concerning what "Voodoo" is, some discussion
on what Voodoo ISN'T is in order.

Voodoo is NOT devil worship.  Voodoo is NOT a denial of God. (It is quite the
oposite).  Voodoo is NOT used primarily for causing or inflicting pain upon
another.

The word Voodoo has evolved to mean so many different things to so many 
different people that it is impossible to define it in a single sentence
or paragraph.  I shall nevertheless, attempt to shed some light upon
what this thought-provoking word has come to mean.

The word Voodoo is derived from a Fon word of the people of Dahomey in West
Africa.  It simply means spirit, deity and God the creator of the Universe.  
In the etymology of this word, there are no connotations of the evil
or the immoral.

When people of African descent were brought to South America, the Caribbean 
and the United States as slaves, they naturally brought with them their 
religion and religous beliefs.  They acknowledged an all encompassing
God force under which were other forces, spirits or deities who were 
given names and recognized as possessing certain attributes.  According to 
one's particular need or desire, the appropriate force or deity was invoked
or prayed to obtain certain requests.  For example, in matters of the home,
one force or spirit would be invoked, whereas in matters of love, money or 
protection, other forces would be called upon.  The African and Haitian
systems of prayer or invocation are similar to the practice in the Roman
Catholic Church of praying to the various saints depending on what is desired.
For example, St. Anthony is the Saint of the poor; St. Jude is the Saint 
prayed to for impossible or very difficult cases; the Mother of Perpetual
Help is prayed to in cases involving children, etc.

African slaves were, for the most part, forbidden to practice their own
religion.  In place thereof Christianity was inandated by the slave masters. 
Nevertheless, the slaves continued to practice their own religion
clandestinely while incorporating the religious beliefs and practices of the 
Christian religions.

In places where Roman Catholicism was the dominant religion, a unique mixture
occured between the African Religions and Catholicism.  

This combination was facilitated because of the similarities between the 
two.  The Catholics vernerated their saints, while the Africans venerated
their spirits or deities.  Both religions were very ceremonious.

In New Orleans, a predominantly Catholic city, this merger of the two religions
took place because many of the African slaves who wer brought here via Haiti
were strong practitioners of their religion.

No discussion of Voodoo in New Orleans would be complete without mentioning
Marie Laveau, the Famous Voodoo Queen who did a lot to bring the practice of
Voodoo to the fore.  She was a Roman Catholic who incorporated her knowledge
and practice of Haitian Voodoo with Catholicism.  There is much written
about her and how she used her potions, gris-gris and other types of
rituals to thelp her clients and followers to ward off their enemies.

It is most unfortunate that many practices which people do not understand
are lumped together under the catchall "Voodoo" and given incorrect or
bad connotations, but now is the time to begin to clear up many of the 
misconceptions surrounding "that word".

	Priestess Ava Kay Jones
	P.O. Box 13122
	New Orleans, LA 70185

	(504) 588-1462

    Interesting coincidence.  I was just re-reading Maya Deren's excellent
    book on Voodoo (or "Voudoun") yesterday.  It's called "Divine Horsemen"
    and should still be in print.
    
    Maya Deren was an avant-garde filmmaker who went to Haiti to shoot a
    few dance scenes.  Instead she ended up fascinated by the religion
    behind the dance.  She never finished the film (although the footage
    was released posthumously), but her book is a brilliant mix of personal
    experience (she ended up a worshipper herself), anthropological
    research and philosophical speculation. 
    
    I took a course on this stuff in college, and Deren's book was the best
    I found.  That leaves out anything published in the last ten years,
    though.
    
    Ray

    
If anyone's interested, I came across a fascinating book on the history of 
human culture that talks a lot about the ancient Goddess culture. It's
called The Time Falling Bodies Take to Light: Mythology, Sexuality and the
Origins of Culture, by William Irwin Thompson, 1981. Sjoo and Mor, the
authors of The Great Cosmic Mother, draw on it, especially in their
discussion of the females' shift from the primate estrus cycle to the
menstrual cycle as the key factor in human evolution. 

Some passages from Thompson's book:

"Women had been at the top of traditional, Neolithic society, but with the 
shift from religious, magical authority to masculine military power, their 
influence collapsed and they became private property in the new trading and 
raiding society. Mesolithic society may have seen the domestication of 
animals, and Neolithic society may have seen the domestication of plants, 
but what the age after the Neolithic sees is the domestication of women by 
men.

"The period 6000 - 4000 B.C. is the *Magnus Annus* of the Neolithic Great 
Goddess, but....by 4000 B.C. the new world of trade, of craft 
specializations like metallurgy and militarism, have created a whole new 
world, a decidedly masculine world....

"It may not have happened overnight, but it was a revolution nonetheless. 
For hundreds of thousands of years the culture of women and women's 
mysteries had been the dominant ideology of humanity. The hominization of 
the primates in the shift from estrus was a feminine transformation. The 
rise of a lunar notation and the beginnings of an observed periodicity upon 
which all human knowledge is based was a feminine creation. Agriculture and 
the rise of sedentary villages and towns were feminine creations. But 
civilization and warfare were not; they spelled the end for the Great 
Mother....So recent and so revolutionary is that struggle that to this day 
men have not forgotten, and the slightest stirring of the ancient mother 
can send them running for their swords and guns. Women may look back to a 
golden age of close, intimate, and peaceful village life, but men tremble 
in visions of asphyxiation and extinction in the herd...the male nightmare
.... 

"Man cut the umbilical cord to the Great Mother with a sword, and the sword
has been hanging over his head ever since."  pp. 155 - 156

    
    this is not a great documentary from either a filmaking or scholarly
    point of view. from that regard it is kind of fluffy. on the otherhand,
    what the film actually describes is quite interesting and the audience
    (which was as obviously favorably pre-disposed as i) was enthusiastic.
    it's definitely, however, a 'wait for tv'.
    
    fascinating tidbits: minoan culture on crete, the last matri-focal
    society in the west, shows no evidence of any fortifications, the
    women are displayed equally in the art, both in numbers and activities,
    and none of that art is marked with any personal identification, either
    of ownership or creation.
    

    
    re:.41
    another factor that i've seen discussed is the realisation on the
    part of men in their role in reproduction. previous to understanding
    that concept, the power of women must have seemed truly awesome.
    i wonder if, even today, alot of men's anger at women is based in a
    kind of primal jealousy of women's creative power.
    
    sidelight: my understanding of the ancient origins of circumcision
    is that it was intended to emulate the bleeding and pain of childbirth
    that women experience.
     

    
    
    In response to D!'s announcement re: her new snake...
    
    While many people are rather squeamish about serpents, the serpent is a
    very potent symbol for women, and I'm very pleased to see other women
    raising, caring for, and enjoying snakes.
    
    The serpent was an important symbol in pre-Judaio-Christian, matrifocal
    (ie; Goddess-based) religions.  There are numerous mythos which
    describe the spiral dance of the Goddess and the serpent to create the
    world.  A symbol common to many of these creation myths is that of the
    cosmic serpent wrapped around the egg.
    
    Priestesses of these Pagan traditions often kept and raised serpents,
    usually constrictors (hence the term "pythoness") which were revered
    and considered sacred and holy creatures.  It is claimed that the
    priestesses would prophesize based on the behaviors of their serpents.
    
    The serpent was also sacred to the Egyptians - ancient Egyptian royalty
    could be identified by the "serpent crown" that was worn, although in
    this case the sacred serpent was the cobra.
    
    The serpent was also in all probability sacred to many African tribal
    religions, something that is evident in the African-derived Voudoun of
    Haiti.  The center of the Voudoun temple is a pole or peristyle of
    rainbow colours, which represents the rainbow serpent Dambalah.  It is
    traditional to keep a serpent, again, a constrictor, in a "cave cage"
    of sorts at the base of this pole.
    
    Serpents became an object of loathing and fear only recently in our
    history, and only seem to inspire these feelings in cultures influenced
    by Judaism/Christianity (I'm not sure about the Islaamic approach to
    serpents).  Much of this loathing can be traced to Genesis, where the
    original sin is portrayed by a woman (Eve) seduced by a serpent (Satan). 
    Many historians feel that the creation myth depicted in Genesis is a
    direct allegorical reference to the rejection of Goddess-based,
    matrifocal religion.
    
    In any case, the evidence is clear that the owning of a serpent,
    particularly of a constrictor, is a "classically feminine" thing to do.
    
    					Blessed Be,
    					/Rita
    
                                                                        

    Could anyone tell me about Brigit, goddess of fire and poetry?
    
    -Jody
    

    
    About a week ago there was an article in USA Today about the rise of
    goddess reverence. The article was based on remarks by someone who runs
    a bookstore in San Francisco emphasizing goddess-related books and
    workshops. I got the same message the other day in speaking with one of
    the proprietresses (?) of the Native Spirit bookstore in Sudbury - that
    interest in women's spirituality is on the increase. And I seem to
    remember something in the Globe some months ago to the effect that the Pope
    was viewing this as cause for concern. I'm wondering just how much of a
    grass roots phenomenon is "goddess worship"? Is it mostly centered in
    bookstores? Do people really view it as a threat to the more established 
    religions?
    
    D.                                                    

    I find it ironic that the Pope would consider this a cause of concern. 
    Considering that he continues to perpetuate the misogyistic practices
    of his church, opposes the necessary changes that would give women
    participatory involvement in his church, and suppresses those in his
    church who are interested in exploring feminist Christian
    spirituality--does he really expect that women *aren't* going to be
    turning away from his denomination to other sources for their
    spirituality?

    -- Mike

    Mike,
    
    Of course it is cause for concern!  All slave revolts begin after
    the slaves embrace a new religion.
    
    						Ann B.

     
    .48
    
    What interested me was that he considered it significant enough to be
    concerned about. I mean, if it were just a few women on the lunatic
    fringe, he might just ignore it, but does his mentioning it mean he's 
    worried about a mass exodus? (Or is it exoda?) And does he have cause 
    to be worried?
    
    D.

    
    there was an article in the seattle 'weekly' about goddess worship
    that i was going to excerpt here, but lauren disposed of it before i
    got a chance. the gist of it was that, at least in the northwest, it
    is something of a phenomenon, though perhaps more a part of 'new-age'
    religion in general rather than specifically 'womanist'. for example,
    we have friends who do things like celebrate the solstices: it a
    goddess religion kind of thing, and these friends are feminists, but
    their celebrations are not especially of the feminine principle, more
    the generalised sort of spirituality one might associate with
    'new-age'. it's not viewed as particularly threatening by anybody ;^) 
    

    Matthew Fox, a Dominican priest, had been silenced by the Vatican for a
    of a year for similar reasons.  Here is an excerpt from an interview
    that appeared in Psychology Today:

        Sam:  The Vatican's guardians of orthodoxy say you are "dangerous
        and  deviant."  You have been officially silenced, forbidden to
        teach,  preach or lecture.  In just what ways are you dangerous and
        deviant?
    
        Matt:  It is not exactly clear.  I have never been permitted to
        face  my accusers.  But the charges against me are that I am an
        ardent  feminist, that I call God both Mother and Child as well as
        Father,  that I do not condemn homosexuals, that I hired a
        self-described  witch to teach about Wicca, a pre-Christian folk
        religion practiced  by European peasant women, and that I emphasize
        original blessing  over original sin.  
    
    -- Mike

    The Pope may very well be a sexist but He is not a misogynist.
    
    As a Catholic I am well aware that our church is not satisfying the
    needs of a large portion of it congregation.
    
    The Pope is between a rock and a hard spot.  The Church is worldwide 
    with diverse cultures.  Any changes in doctrine will cause some major
    upheavals.
    
    It will be very interesting to see who will be the next Pope.
    
    Change will happen, it is happening quietly and with great
    determination.  
    
    

    -55
    
    -d I'm also a Catholic, but a 'Holy' Catholic rather than a
    Roman or a Greek or a Russian :-).
    
    i.e. I'm an Episcopalian or Anglican.
    
    We do have girls/young women as acolytes. It works quite well
    and I've been privleged to see all five of my kids (including
    my 'special needs son') serve as acolytes. (I suspect the
    they may have first started off asking girls because of a derth
    of boys in the late 60s and early 70s but we seem to have equal
    numbers now.)
    
    Bonnie

    The upper case was not a typo...it is my respect for the leader of the
    church I attend.  It is personal and I don't expect it from anyone
    except myself.
    
    There are quite a few female acolytes, readers and eucharistic
    ministers in the Boston Archdiocese.
    
    I believe the Pope is mistaken in his belief that now is not the time
    to have women participate fully in the church.

    
    .54, interesting to see who will be the next pope -
    
    yes, I wonder who she'll be!
    
    D.

    Joyce,

    Do you believe that the Pope is only adhering to the sexist traditions
    because he is afraid of rocking the boat too much?  I guess I have
    never gotten the impression that he was very passive about this issue. 
    For example, when the Episcopalian Church named a female bishop, he
    strongly objected to this and said that this was a stumbling block to
    relations between the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

    Perhaps you're right that the word 'sexist' is more appropriate than
    'misogynist'.  And I hope you are right that things will eventually
    change, and maybe someday the Church will decide that women are good
    enough to participate in the leadership after all.  I am curious (and
    perhaps this deserves a topic of its own) what keeps women from leaving
    the Roman Catholic Church in droves.  Why do women remain there?
    It's not like the Church is a democratic institution, so it's not
    possible for the female membership to just decide to throw out the
    current Pope and elect a more benign one.

    -- Mike

    RE: most of the topic.
    
    Sigh
    
    All of this is why I am now a Quaker.
    
    I never have understood why my brothers, one of whom was regularly in
    trouble with the police (like, on a weekly basis), were more qualified
    to be altar "boys" than was I, your basic goody two-shoes.  BTW, "boys"
    was in quotation marks to show it as a title.  Obviously, I couldn't
    have been a boy, so let us not jump on the terminology.
    
    E Grace

    
    I sincerely apologize about the length of this!
    
    I left the Catholic church when I reached adulthood.  It seemed like
    the only rational thing to do.  I never even had to decide.  It just
    happened gradually.
    
    My parents are about as Catholic as one can be!  They are very devout.
    But I never could reconcile how otherwise intelligent, educated (they both
    have masters degrees) people can throw all reason out the window when
    (mockingly reverent tone) "the Pope" speaks.  Like having eight children.
    No one wants eight children.  At least my parents didn't.  But
    "the Pope" says birth control is (more mocking reverence) "a mortal sin".
    
    For many years, when I went home at Christmas, I would be very anxious
    and agonize over whether or not to go to church with them or not.  I felt
    like a hypocrite if I went.  I felt anxious if I didn't go.  I feet *very*
    uncomfortable in a Catholic church.  But I've reconciled that now and I
    do go, but only out of respect for my parents.
    
    I would never discuss any of this with them, and they've never brought
    it up with me (at least not in many, many years), probably because they
    know my answers and don't want to hear them.
    
    However, I do feel that having been raised in the Catholic church, I
    have a right to criticize it.  If you could know all I went through!
    Really stupid stuff.  Like 12 years of Catholic schools, and this in a
    town that had first-rate public schools.  What a waste of money (by
    otherwise sensible, thrifty people!)  First confession at age 8.
    Confirmation at age 13 (and I didn't want to do it then, even at 13 I
    doubted already, but I really had to - everyone else in my class did it).
    
    Aside: Have any of you ever read _The Last Catholic In America_ and
    _Do Black Patent Leather Shoes Really Reflect Up?_, both by John
    Powers?  They're probably out of print by now, but they're wildly
    funny.  The first one is about a boy growing up Catholic in grade
    school and the second one continues into high school.  A real riot.
    And I have them if anyone wants to borrow.  Send mail.
    

    RE: quite a few back
    
    Celebrating the solstices is not just done in goddess-worship
    religions. Many groups sprang up within the Catholic church
    when Matthew Fox was silenced, and they celebrate solstices.
    Matthew Fox is really interesting. He has a theory that social
    justice is not possible without removing the negative connection
    between sensuality and sin.                                              
    
    There is a strong radical sector of Catholicism. There's a
    group of nuns who are Washington, D.C., based who have started
    something called Womanchurch. They don't want to leave the
    church just because of the male hierarchy and have decided
    to do their own thing. They have the belief that the Episcopal
    women who are priests have had their feminist agenda co-opted
    by the male hierarchy, and they prefer to not be a part of
    the hierarchy. Of course, they will probably be silenced one
    of these days. But then they will become more popular, like
    Matthew Fox.
    
    Eileen
    

    .62  I stay in the church because my faith is a part of me and it isn't
    really of this world.  The Catholic Church's devotion to Mary and the
    recognition of the many saintly women in the church's past and future
    is enough for me, because the important piece is to have something to 
    believe in and live up to, not something to achieve.
    
    But f{I pray that the Pope will realize that he is biting off his  his
    nose to spite his face.  We are very short of clergy and women are far
    better suited to lives of service then men are. ;-)  After all we have
    had years of practice!

    
    .59 -
    
    Goddess reverence is hardly "another religion." It is the oldest
    religion on earth, predating the dominant patriarchal religions by
    thousands and thousands of years. What is happening now, as I
    understand it, is a *re* -visioning of that ancient, all-but-forgotten,
    nature-revering, egalitarian vision.
    
    D.
    

    
    My .64 might sound like I'm complaining about the way I was raised.
    I didn't mean it to sound that way!  I love my parents dearly and
    they truly were (and are) good parents.  At this point, I have no
    regrets about my childhood.
    

   Dorian,
    
    Good topic.   My added piece.  Many of the religions I have been
    exposed to have the concept of the woman being important to the
    family in maintining the spiritual continuity.  As a result of this
    it become the womans responsability to raise the children in the
    that religion(even if it's not her own).  This to reflects back on
    earlier times.  
    
    Allison

    

    re.72 There's a great big hairy non-sequiter in there somewhere.
    What about the 'spiritual continuity' of _her_ beliefs ? Or is
    it her 'responsibility' to bury her own convictions? 
    
    IMO, 'responsibility' and 'rights' are intertwined, without one
    the other does not exist. If she has no right to her own beliefs
    she has no responsibility to the beliefs of others.

    I have no conflict with what you said.  The fact that you caught
    the language problem I was having suggests you understand...  
    
    My concept was that in early pagen times (pre christian) the woman
    was the bearer of the religion for the family group.  In post
    christian time that was maintained but her religious beliefs were
    no longer important, only that she be the keeper of the spritual
    fire.  

    There is considerable ritualization buried in everyday things that
    hail back to older times.  The rituals became corrupted to mean 
    different things as well so it hard to identify what whas the
    origonal meaning or origin.
    
    Allison

    
    Re .74
    Ritual buried in everyday things - yes, and I happen to be reading
    Joseph Campbell's "Myths to Live By" right now which shows some
    fascinating links between recent public displays and ancient
    myth (for example, the funeral and public mourning of JFK)....
    
    The idea of women being the "spiritual keepers" strikes a chord
    too....
    It seems that mens and women's roles in society have been split
    by many religions into men being those of "this world" who
    function here, have power here, and take action here in the
    material physical world, and women are of the "other world" -
    spiritual creatures, less material, less physical, less "powerful"
    in this material, physical world.
    
    You can see this split taken to extremes in some of the traditions
    of idolised women (Virgin Mary, the troubador poets, courtly love etc etc) 
    where the "perfect women" was completely disconnected from the real
    world that we all live in and hence made powerless in it in
    terms of temporal power.
    
    This seems to have led to a great deal of discomfort around the
    physicality of women - the pain and blood of childbirth and the
    power of women's passion don't fit too well with the idea of
    the "meek" who are destined to "inherit the earth" sometime -
    anytime - but not NOW. 
    
    In my view, many of the world religions with a significantly large
    following seem to perpetuate an unrealistic image of women leaning
    to this "reality disconnect" and, as such, I find them difficult
    to reconcile with my feelings about women's tradition and
    my own experience of being woman in this real, practical,
    action-based world.
    
    'gail                       
    
    

    I'm currently re-reading "the chalice and the blade"  by riane eisler.
    It is an excellant history of how humanity changed from goddess
    to god oriented.
    bj

    If I understand it right, it sounds like it is being asserted that
    ancient Goddess religions had maintained a class of priestesses who
    were deemed to be endowed with special religious inspiration or powers. 

    Coming from my own perspective, I have to admit that it sounds rather,
    well, patriarchal (where I define patriarchal in terms of hierarchy and
    classism).  I belong to a religion that not only rejects the concept of
    an elite class of priests/priestesses (or any type of religious
    hierarchy), but also believes in the equality of the sexes--including
    in all forms of religious experience, which is believes to be available
    to all, male and female.  In this way, anyone, male or female, can
    contribute to the life of the religious community if and when they have
    something to contribute.  I don't understand why vesting religious
    power, or any special religious role, to a class of priestesses, is
    considered an improvement over the patriarchal hierarhcies that we see
    in many other religions.  I consider it a much more refreshing
    alternative to patriarchal religions to eliminate the priestly class
    altogether and to simply define all people, male and female, as members
    of the priesthood.

    -- Mike

I agree with you, Mike, that the power inherent in a hierarchy of the
priests or prietesses tends to make a political entity of religions
(well, so, I extrapolated a bit from your note).  I think you overlook
the other aspect of religious reward, which is the enjoyment of ritual,
symbolic gestures and ceremonies which hint or guide the way to deeper
understandings of one's place in the world.  An experienced group of
initiates can help the lesser experienced towards understanding.  This
role of teacher quite naturally combines with the role of 'keeper of
the rituals', I think.  It makes sense to me that this evolves to an
organized political entity in so many cases, even though such a result
is undesirable if one expects religion to provide a spiritual guide,
instead of just another civic entity to accomodate in daily life.  In
short, I doubt most religions would see the harm in instututionalizing
their power, though from your and my perspectives, its obvious.

DougO

    ...aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh.......but what if you belong to a
    non-ritualistic religion?  That is one of the things I treasure so
    about my chosen religion.  (Besides the fact that it answers to my
    faith.)  I was thinking about this yesterday during the funeral.  I
    hated it, and the main reason I hated it was because it was so distant;
    it was not immediate.  
    
    E Grace

There are no rituals in the Quaker religion?  No traditions of everyone
in the community joining together in the meeting house, no format for
the speaking during such meetings, no customary practices which represent
comfortable, acceptable traditions?  I'd consider such to be 'rituals' in
the sense that I'm using the word.  No?

DougO

    
    Maybe the point is, ritual has been part of religion (if not all of
    them) for a very long time; there is evidence that women once played a
    major part in that ritual, say as priestesses, and even in the conception 
    of the divine itself; but that that changed; and what effect did that
    change have on the lives of women?
    
    Dorian

    I don't think of my worship as ritualistic, Doug.  However, it may be
    because my basis is in Roman Catholicism, which is highly ritualistic. 
    Compared to that, silent Friends' meeting is just a bunch of folks
    sitting down together!
    
    Anyway, this is off the topic of the Goddess, and perhaps should be
    taken to the rathole or offline.  I do not want to be disrespectful of
    those who wish to discuss Goddess worship here.
    
    E Grace

    Doug,

    I guess it depends on how you define "ritual".  Yes, there are
    customary practices.  No, there are no formal sacraments in Quakerism,
    mediated by designated individuals, or in the sense of symbolic actions
    that serve to point to a deeper religious experience.  Quakerism
    believes that the religious experience is directly and immediately
    available to all, and need not be mediated through rituals or symbols,
    or through designated priests or priestesses.  Thus the traditional
    practices of Quakerism do not have the same sort of .sacramental
    purpose that you often find in other religions.

    -- Mike

    
    re: .71
    
    Thanks for entering that, Dorian.  Fascinating!  I got a particular
    "click" based on some observations I made over the week of Memorial
    Day, during my vacation.  I spent my vacation at Rites of Spring, a
    major neo-pagan festival that is held annually in New England.  I was
    intrigued that so many (perhaps 40-60% - I didn't take an exact count)
    of the pagan men at the festival wore what is typiclly considered
    "female" attire - long swirly skirts, blouses with full sleeves, long
    hair, earrings and eyeliner were sported freely by various men there. 
    I enjoyed that immensely and found it rather, um, decorative :-)  My SO
    was so impressed that he asked if I could "Please show him how to make
    some of those nice skirts so that he could dress like that next year."
    I had really thought no more of it than, "Gee, these guys are rather
    liberated and really learning to express themselves and get outside of
    the boundries of convention" but your entry to this topic is causing me
    to go back and re-examine that.  Perhaps this mode of dress for men has
    more relevance to their religion than I had previously considered.
    
    					/Rita
    

OK, Mike, Grace, this sentence tells me that the need for teachers and
a priestly caste is differently perceived than I had realized:

> Quakerism believes that the religious experience is directly and 
> immediately available to all.

And I agree we needn't sidetrack this topic any longer.  Returning to
your original note, Mike (.79), I wonder if you think that the assertion
of a priestess class in ancient Goddess worship is incorrect, perhaps a
projection of we who are so used to the ritualized and politicized priest
classes in modern religions.  I am unfamiliar with the studies in this
topic, so I don't know how firmly established the idea of a priestess
class really is, among those who have studied.  Certainly the fantasy
literature assumes that religions have always been a power base.

DougO

        
    I had to appear in court briefly this morning, and was on the point of
    asking the judge why he was wearing a dress, but then I decided not
    to...
    
    Dorian

In reading the note on "trigger words"  I observed that many women found the
"c-word" to be a trigger.  I felt a little out-of-step, since I (like Lee and
Sandy(?)) really liked the word, far more than other "body parts vernacular". 
I always found it to be inexplicably powerful.  I was really curious about the
word after reading that topic...but I didn't really pursue it.

Then, yesterday, a wonderful friend send me the following piece on the
symbolism of the cowrie shell.  I read it, and filed it.  On the drive into
work this morning, I thought about it, and had a "click".  A MAJOR click.

*****************************


THE COWRIE SHELL

Symbol from earliest times of the locus of birth, rebirth,
regeneration and reincarnation, the cowrie shell's name is
rerived from Kauri, a form of Kali-Cunti, Yoni of the Universe.
Cowrie shells are accepted all over the world as a symbol of
the female, and are found in abundance in the most ancient
graves, evidence of the extreme antiquity of their generative
and rebirth symbolism.

The cowrie shell was called 'porcella' or 'little sow' by the
Romans in honor of the Great Sow, one of the crone forms of
the Goddess. From 'porcella' we derive the word 'porcelain'
because of its resemblance to the white, glazed shell surface.

The great beauty of the shell's natural form nourishes the
spirit. Add to that beauty its symbolic meaning- the source
of creation, the great cosmic yoni- and the shell becomes a
power object of deep signifance.

May you enjoy your possession of this shell!
Blessed Be!

*****************************

The "c-word"  is derived from Kali-Cunti, the generative (as opposed to
destructive) aspect of Kali, one of the most powerful images I can imagine!
She is the Jungian archetype of the "terrible, awful mother" (terrible and
awful in the older, root-word sense of inspiring terror and awe, a description
of power, not in the sense that we typically (mis)use the words "terrible" and
"awful" today.)  It explained a great deal to me, and helped me to understand
why I felt power in that word.  Sheesh, no wonder some have used it to slam
women - that much woman-power is frightening! I've come to feel that this word,
always a power word for me, is something I can reclaim, and *deliberately* use
as a sacred power word.

(WARNING!  I am no longer comfortable with using "***" in the spelling of "the
c-word".  The following text contains this word explicitly spelled out.  If the
complete spelling of this word offends or disturbs you, PLEASE HIT NEXT UNSEEN
NOW!)



Now, I had to ask myself, can I look in the mirror and say to myself,
"I am a cunt.  I am The Cunt.  I am Kali-Cunti, who has generated the world. 
There is no part of me that is not of the Goddess."

Well, I tried it.  I will admit to feeling discomfort.  However, I also felt
stirrings of real power.  I think this will *work*.

I had some misgivings at first.  One of the things that concerned me - the word
and ones like it have been used to objectify women, to reduce them to a body
part.  But the more, I thought about it, deliberate *identification* with a
body part does not equate to being *reduced* to a body part.  In this case,
I felt like there was nothing reductive about it.  It felt like embracing,
encompassing, *enveloping* all that is uniquely female and it felt powerful.

So, the next time some unfortunate fool calls me a cunt, I will draw up all the
power of Kali-Cunti into myself, I will burn with the raging secret flame of
the Goddess, I will scorch the offender with my eyes, and I will say, "Thank
you very much.  That's MS. Cunt to you!"


					/Rita

					(D!, 'scuse me, but I'm feeling an
					 irresistable urge to borrow Peggy's
					 Labrys from you, just for this note..)


						|
					     (  |  )  The Goddess is Kali-Cunti
						|     and she regenerates the
						|	world!
						|

    

...the c-word is *not* derived from anthing like Kali-Cunti except in
the imaginations of wishful thinkers.  The modern English word comes
from the Middle English `cunte', which is akin to the Middle Low German
`kunte', meaning the female pudenda.  This latter word is related to the
Middle High German `kotze' which means a prostitute.  There is indirect
linkage to the Latin `cunnus' meaning the female pudenda, which is one
source of the term `cunnilingus' - the other source being the Latin
`lingua', meaning tongue.

-d

    ... and related to the Latin `Cunina', the Roman Goddess of children,
    and `cunabula', meaning earliest abode and cradle, *all* of which
    go back to the proto-Indo_European root, Cunti or Kunda, the Goddess.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    There's a dictionary of Indo-European roots at the back of the American
    Heritage Dictionary (not the office version, but the big red one). Also, 
    this same IE dictionary has been published separately in paperback form 
    ($6.95 I think) and in it the roots are cross-referenced by English
    words that derive from them. It was done by Calvert Watkins at Harvard. 
    
    I guess the IEs did spawn a lot of the language, even as they clobbered the 
    goddess...  8-}
    
    DB

    I've always liked the word for "wife" in Danish.  The word is Kone,
    pronounced KOHne (same in Dutch, I believe, but spelled differently). 
    It always sounded pleasant to my ears. And now I find it is not very
    different from cuna and all the other woman words. 
    
      Margaret

>	same in Dutch, I believe, but spelled differently
    
    Indeed! "Kenau" is the proper spelling. I'm not feeling brave enough to
    go into the specifics of the pronounciation though. ;-)
    
    Ad(sort of back in town, Hello!)

    Ad,
    
    Don't be silly, I see you almost every day...
    
      Margaret

    Re: .89-.91
    
    The AHD refers the reader to the book's appendix, in re: `ku-'.  This
    root is described as the hypothetical base of a variety of conceivably
    related Germanic words meaning "A hollow space or place, an enclosing
    object, a round object, a lump," and some other derivative notations. 
    This derivation corresponds to the female pudenda and could be
    extrapolated to include the womb, as an enclosing object.  The AHD does
    not draw any Latin or Indo-European connection but does include Old
    Norse (kuga, meaning to oppress.)  The Indo-European language group
    does include both Germanic and Italic, however, so there is a
    connection through that fact.  There is no mention whatever of any
    connection to a goddess.  Ann, can you indicate your sources, please?
    
    -d

    
    I don't know about anyone else, but I find something strange in a
    person's need to absolutely, logically, and without room for doubt nail
    down the exact etymology of a Goddess-related word.
    
    Labrys please, Diana?
    					(-)
    					 |
    
    					How can we pin down the Goddess
    					when she is everything and everywhere
    					defying logic daily in our
    					hearts?
    
    -Jody
    

    But Jody, I am not trying to pin down the etymology of a goddess-
    related word.  The c-word has not to my satisfaction been demonstrated
    to be goddess-related, and my education and reference materials do not
    provide me with any documentation for such a relationship.  In fact,
    the information I have indicates rather the contrary - insofar as this
    information's degree of thoroughness extends.  I would like to *know*
    instead of being asked to believe what appears to me a wishful-thinking
    explanation for the purpose of reclaiming an epithet.
    
    If it is improper to request *real* information, with documentation to
    back it up, then please, as a comod, delete my notes in this context.
    
    -d

re: .98
    
>    But Jody, I am not trying to pin down the etymology of a goddess-
>    related word.  The c-word has not to my satisfaction been demonstrated
>    to be goddess-related, and my education and reference materials do not
>    provide me with any documentation for such a relationship.  In fact,
>    the information I have indicates rather the contrary - insofar as this
>    information's degree of thoroughness extends.  I would like to *know*
>    instead of being asked to believe what appears to me a wishful-thinking
>    explanation for the purpose of reclaiming an epithet.
    
    In your mind, you are not trying to pin down the etymology of a
    goddess-related word.  I am sorry you are dissatisfied with the proof
    thus far.  In fact, with indications to the contrary, may your search
    bear whatever fruit you are seeking.
    
    Unfortunately, with etymologies of words, one can seldom *know* exactly
    what 2nd or 8th or -12th century people believed - and even if they did
    write something down that's just one person's take.  It may not be "the
    truth".
    
 >   If it is improper to request *real* information, with documentation to
 >   back it up, then please, as a comod, delete my notes in this context.
 >   
    
    I never mentioned anything about impropriety of asking anything about
    *real* information, I merely doubt this will be pindownable with a
    universal truth, and I feel that since it may well be Goddess relatable
    that might not be either bad or unexpected, to my mind.
    
    And when I speak as a comod, you will find 
    "***co-moderator response***" in the header, or the like.
    I clearly delineate which cloak I wear in that matter.
    
    -Jody
    
  

    Ah, Jody, I didn't intend to imply that you were wearing your comod
    cloak - I sorta figured you were wearing the Jodyesque jeans you had on
    at the Grand Party.  My request was phrased as it was simply because
    you do happen to be a comod and could therefore delete my replies. 
    Sorry to have suggested anything further.
    
    I don't honestly expect the derivation I'm interested in to be 100%
    pindownable (is that a word?); rather, I'm looking for what I, as a
    scholarly type, can accept as reliable evidence.  I don't think my
    skepticism is out of line; the resemblance between the c-word and the
    second half of Kali-Cunti is so striking as to appear a little pat. 
    How would you, as a thinking person, respond if I entered a note saying
    I was reclaiming the word "prick" because it is derived from the name
    of the loving ur-father Hoton-Prikus?  Without some authoritative
    sources to back up my claim, would you accept it out of hand?  I
    wouldn't, if I were you.
    
    This appeal for evidence isn't entirely attributable to my natural
    bullheadedness.  :-)  The answers, when provided, will educate me, but
    - more importantly - they will educate many others, men and women, who
    are interested in learning more about the Goddess.
    
    -d

    As far as I can tell, .89, .90, and .91 _all_ contain absolute
    statements of the origin of the c-word without citing sources. So I
    think -d's request for sources is valid, but _all_ of the authors must
    be tarred with the same brush.  (-d, I suspect that applying tar to
    oneself is harder than braiding one's own hair.;-))

    On the other hand, I'm much more interested in people's reactions to
    the implications of .89 -- Rita's note about "reclaiming" the c-word --
    than I am in watching a scholarly discussion of the validity of
    etymological sources.  (I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion
    of sources, just that it bores me.)

    Personally, I didn't have a strong reaction to .89 -- just a small
    "Aha! Another bit of history comes untwisted!" and a smile of vicarious
    pleasure at Rita's description of how she'll react the next time
    someone calls her by the c-word.
    
    It just doesn't resonate in me, perhaps because I don't possess the
    necessary, um, shell-facsimile.
    
    Bob

    Consider me tarred.  Here, then, is my turpentine.
    
    My source for cunte, kunte, and kotze is Webster's Ninth.  For cunnus,
    Cassell's Latin Dictionary (1927), which also indicates that the Romans
    commonly used the word to mean a prostitute, and my own study of Latin
    (1960s).  For ku-, the American Heritage Dictionary (1970).
    
    Fortunately, Bob, I don't have to braid my own hair, although I believe
    I do a fairish job at braiding others'.  :-)
    
    I guess I really should say here that I admire Rita's reclaiming of the
    c-word; she shows a strength of character I'm not sure I could muster
    in similar circumstances.  But I'm still interested in tracing the word
    origin.  :-)
    
    -d

re: .100
    
>    Ah, Jody, I didn't intend to imply that you were wearing your comod
>    cloak - I sorta figured you were wearing the Jodyesque jeans you had on
>    at the Grand Party.  My request was phrased as it was simply because
>    you do happen to be a comod and could therefore delete my replies. 
>    Sorry to have suggested anything further.
    
    To even suggest I would utilize my co-moderator power to delete things
    I disagreed with really pushes my buttons.  I delete based on rules,
    guidelines, and objections from other noters based on what's in 1.* and
    corporate PP&P.  I realize you didn't mean to push my buttons, but I'm
    explaining to you how what you said makes me feel. 
    
>    I don't honestly expect the derivation I'm interested in to be 100%
>    pindownable (is that a word?); rather, I'm looking for what I, as a
>    scholarly type, can accept as reliable evidence.  I don't think my
>    skepticism is out of line; the resemblance between the c-word and the
>    second half of Kali-Cunti is so striking as to appear a little pat. 
    
    I don't think it was your searching that I was objecting to, it was
    your out-of-hand objection to Rita's (?) explanation from HER sources,
    because they did not agree with YOUR sources (or at least that was how
    it sounded).  It feels strange to me for one person to think THEIR
    source is 100% accurate and nobody else's is.  But I understand now
    you're still searching, and I'm glad.
    
>    How would you, as a thinking person, respond if I entered a note saying
>    I was reclaiming the word "prick" because it is derived from the name
>    of the loving ur-father Hoton-Prikus?  Without some authoritative
>    sources to back up my claim, would you accept it out of hand?  I
>    wouldn't, if I were you.
    
    I'd accept that it was where you felt the word came from, and would not
    dispute that.  I would accept it as a potential etymology.  Frankly, I
    find etymologies interesting, but I don't ever have to nail down any
    one word to any one genesis.  All seem equally potentially valid to me
    and I don't feel a need for "closure" to one truth.
    
    -Jody
    

Re: .104

This might belong in the Grand_Party topic, but speaking of pushing
buttons, Jody, it occurs that your dance Friday almost certainly pushed
buttons other than mine.  I don't care for belly dancing because of my
understanding of its origins.  On the other hand, I'm moved to ask if
maybe it could be traced beyond the hareems and seraglios of the great
Muslims of the Middle Ages - could it be goddess-related and possibly be
a form of worship?  If I understand goddess religions rightly, they seem
much more accepting of all aspects of the human body than all the brand-
name religions.  Am I all wet here?

-d

    I knew full well there was a risk when I decided to share that facet of
    myself with the community. Some people look at it as "politically
    incorrect".  But as my intro said, feminism is about choices.
    
    I feel that middle eastern dance is very grounding and
    energy-connecting.  I have seen men do the dance, and the energy for
    them is very masculine.  I assume it is a taproot to whatever they find
    within themselves that brings out their most unmasked maleness. 
    Likewise, women in Arabic/Egyptian countries often dance from when they
    are young, the music is part of their culture, and the dance is part of
    their lives.  I find it a way to express something powerful
    in me.  Women used the dance in the past to catch the eye of their
    potentates or sultans, but I use it to express myself.  I reclaim it
    for myself.  I do not dance to please others, I dance to please myself.
    
    Long before women used the dance to catch the eyes of men, women used
    the dance to worship the goddess.  
    
    -Jody
    

    
    - .1
    
    Jody, that was great, and so were you Friday night!
    
    Dorian

    Jody, cheers!
    
    Don't worry if what you choose to do and how you choose to express
    yourself is politically inconvenient for some people.  You have the
    right to be yourself, and only *you* can know whether something is on
    the right path for you.
    
    You were fabulous and I felt very strong and empowered watching you
    dance.
    
    D!
    
    				(-)
    				 |
    
    					We each choose our own way to
    					celebrate the Goddess; she does
    					not recognize "politically
    					incorrect".

Jody, your explanation of Middle Eastern dancing was a true eye-opener
for me.  I never cease to be amazed at the enriching things I can learn
in this community.  Now I wish I hadn't gone back into the kitchen when
I saw what you were doing.  (humble apology)

-d

    
    No need to apologize, -d.  For a moment I feared you were "calling me
    out on the rug" for something I did that disagreed with you, simply
    because I expressed something you did that disagreed with me (tit for
    tat makes me uncomfortable).  Now I understand that was not the case.  
    
    I myself was surprised when I chose to begin dance lessons over 3 years
    ago.  The energy focus of the dance brings me into myself, allows me to
    scatter energy and carve air around me with my motions, and I guess a
    kind of "mission" I've had since I thought about sharing my dancing
    with others is to help remove the vulgarizations that American has
    brought to the dance in the past century or so.  It has a tarnished
    reputation, I am well aware.
    
    Perhaps middle eastern dance can be reclaimed as a form and expression
    of power and womanness, rather than a bump-and-grind peep-show meant
    only to titillate as some people have been led to believe it is.
    
    -Jody

    Jody (.110),
    
    I enjoyed the dance, as dance not politics.
    
    I'm not surprised at your comments in .110 about feeling grounded by
    your dance.  It's interesting that I have a therapist who is training
    is gestalt in nature.  She has reccomended that I partake of dance as
    a way to regain contact with my body.  She was specifc to the extent
    of suggesting dance as movement and for eastern or native american
    dance rather than modern western dance.  From the people I know who
    have done this the feeing is that they derive great personel strength
    from their movement.
    
    Peace,
    Allison

    Jody, by your dance and the audience reaction to it, you called upon
    the Goddess, we affirmed that call and IMHO, she manifested in that
    room. Of course, her presence was felt by others in that room, on that
    night, because of the LOVE that was there. Your dance affirmed her
    presence for me. Thank you for the courage you showed. Bravest act i
    ever saw.
    
    PJ

    In a fairly recent novel by Tom Robbins, "Skinny Legs and All", 
    belly dance is portrayed as a step in the revelation of the 
    Goddess.  In fact, throughout the novel, the dance of the seven
    veils is used as a metaphor for understanding the Goddess and 
    what seems to me to be (in the novel, anyway) the "true nature
    of the universe".  
    
    While I wouldn't give an unqualified recommendation of the book,
    the portrayal of belly dancing is quite interesting, as well as
    the relationships drawn between devotion to the Goddess and 
    christianity, islam and judaism.  
    
    I know *very* little about the Goddess (though I'm interested in 
    learning more), so if I've offended anyone by what I've said or how
    I've said it, I apologize.
    
    One thing that disappointed me about Robbins' novel was that,
    although female sexuality was portrayed positively, I perceived
    the presentation as too male-oriented, rather than female 
    sexuality, in whatever it's manifestation, as being intrinsically
    powerful.  That's very poorly expressed, but I can't seem to find
    a really clear way of saying it.  
    

    
    Jody....your dance was fully and totally *woman*.  It and you
    were beautiful!
    
    Carole

In one of my belly dance books the author claims the dance was used to teach
women control of their bodies. It helps by developing the muscles used in
childbirth and keeping a woman in shape. All I know is that I like to dance also
and it's great exercise. Not to mention that dancing for someone special can
really bring out the goddess in you! :*) liesl

    my own experience as a dancer is that dance centers me.....it a way to
    focus and to express.....the willingness to share something that is
    quite personal and unique to oneself is remarkable....dance found the
    woman-child for me.....it also finds the passion of all passions for me
    because it is the one way that I can clearly express myself....
    
    jody....please don't ever doubt your choices.....to express yourself in
    this way can be the purest....
    
    denise
    

    
    Jody--
    
    I agree with previous noters, i thought your dance was great(but then
    we told you that at the party Sunday!).  I also felt the presense of 
    the Goddess, but then She is there whenever people gather together in
    Love.
    
    
    Debbi 

"Belly dancing is probably the last place one would expect to find the 
Goddess, corrupted as the art has become to a sexist entertainment for 
men. Yet the dance was originally a woman's rite, a ritual honoring the 
Goddess in the Near East that was taught by mothers to their daughters for 
centuries. For this reason some feminists and mystics have begun learning 
belly dancing as a means to approach the ancient ways of women."

-- Anne Carson, Feminist Spirituality and the Feminine Divine: An Annotated 
Bibliography, 1986, p. 17, commenting on the book The Al-Asherah philosophy 
of ecstatic dance: the new holy belly dance book.

(this bibliography is a great source of books on women's spirituality and 
related subjects!)

Dorian