Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    They're lazy slobs.  I only wish mall rent-a-cops had the authority
    to ticket the little slimes.
    
    I don't care if I have to park at the very back of the mall or even
    down the street...I would never and have never parked in their spot.
    
    
    
                                        L.J.

yes, in 99% of the cases they are lazy slobs, however, when I had my leg
smashed, I used those parking spots - even though I didn't have a permit....it
would have required me to stand in line at the DMV to get a temporary permit,
and, having just undergone orthopedic surgery, I was simply not capable of
that task....and I might not have been granted one, anyway, not being
permanently disabled.  I drove only when I had to to survive (single, I had 
no choice most of the time when it came to getting food, perscriptions, 
cleaning).

I was an offender.  I didn't like being one, and I conciously did my shopping
at an all-night market so I could shop off-hours and be less likely to take
the parking slot that a permanently handicapped person would need....but, I
did use the slots I needed to use.  My leg was agonizing for the first 4
weeks after surgery, and that pain saps strength like nothing I'd ever
experienced.  I made it through work each day because I had no choice - I
was a consultant with a newly-signed contract when I smashed my leg.  I started
work (without pain drugs during the day) one week after the surgery.  By the
time I made it through the day, it was all I could do to get into a store and
get necessities and get out.

I've not used the parking spots since I gained enough strength to get around
on the crutches (approx. a month after surgery) well...and I never will
as long as I can walk - I always park at the end of the parking lot and walk.
After having my leg threatened, I like walking...it is a privilege.

    When you are incapacitated, you are not an offender and can even, in 
    most places, get a temporary medical permit that indicates your right
    to use a handicapped spot.  (Doctors can get them for you.)
    
    In '79, when I was hobbling around on a walker, unable to drive because
    of a broken leg and collarbone, I was fortunate enough to have a driver
    -- but occasionally she parked in a handicapped spot specifically so I
    wouldn't have to hoof it across the lot and so she could assist me to
    navigate past obstacles.  Usually she let me out and walked herself.
    
    People who have no legitimate reason to use handicapped spots are the
    scum of the earth -- even if the entire rest of the lot is full and all
    the handicapped spots are empty.
    
    -d

    I don't know about all states, but in MA and NH, handicapped parking is
    maintained by the state, not the business, and therefore theortically,
    you could get a parking ticket from the police, just like if you
    parked on a public street.
    
    I was informed of this by DEC security when I broke my foot.  I was
    given a "Medical parking Permit" which I thought allowed me to park in
    the Handicapped spot.  But I was informed that if I parked there, the
    police would give me a ticket, I had to park in DEC's special "medical
    parking" spaces, which were just a little further away than the actual
    handicap spots.
    
    D!

    	I'd love to see everybody who parks in a handicap parking spot that
    doesn't have a real need have their vehicle towed away while their in 
    the store.

    Joe 

    In Amsterdam where parking is difficult anyway, parking on a handicap
    parking spot is taken care off with a higher priority than other
    parking violations.
    Cars parked on handicap parking spots are towed away by default and
    usually within 15 minutes.
    
    Charles

    I used to take my handicapped stepmother to the supermarket every week.
    I was appalled at the amount of thoughless gits who parked in the
    disabled spots. I would be forced to drop my stepmother off then park
    miles away, then she would unnecessarily have to stand for an extra 
    minute or two for me to catch up. I usually remonstrated with the
    offeneder (almost came to blows once) and shamed them into moving. Then
    about 1 minute later another git parks there. It usually seems to be
    the fittest people who park in these spot as well !  I would clamp down
    very heavily on the offenders if I had my way!  500 pound fine and
    3 points on their licence should do !  And thats only because having
    their legs amputated probably wouldn't get through parliament!
    
    Jerome who still has a go at these people.

    
    I must say that this whole thing irks me too.  On occassion I have
    informed non-handicapped people of the impropriety of parking in
    handicapped spaces when they are not handicapped.  I think people
    who do that are slime.
    
    Rachael
    

    I don't think that people who park in handicapped spaces should be
    fined or that their cars should be towed away.  They should be strapped
    in a wheelchair for a week.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    re:  .9
    
    EXACTLY!  If they want the convenience of parking in handicapped
    spaces, then let the slimeballs have ALL the other "conveniences" of
    the handicapped, too!  Shame on them.
    
    -Dotti
    

    Although I've seen many cars parked in handicapped spots, it's rare
    that I see them at the time they are parking.  I think the correct
    approach is to look at them with a confused look for a second or two,
    then say "Oh, I get it... morally handicapped!"
    
    - M

	My father recently made a crack to a young woman who parked in a
handicapped spot at the local grocery store.  She had left a baby in the
car, and when she returned, dad said something along the lines of "You must
be mentally handicapped." to which she replied "Asshole, I have a baby in the
car." and proceeded to shower additional rude comments and actions in my
father's general direction.

	I told him afterwards that the proper response should have been,
"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize the baby was handicapped!"

	Some people amaze me...


						--Doug

excuse me.

SHE LEFT A BABY IN THE CAR!!!!!!!

whatta stupe.

    I was going into a mall one day when a young man pulled up in his jeep,
    parked in a handicap spot and started to run...I saw him,said excuse
    me, do you realize you are in a handicapped spot? to which he
    replied...but i'll only be in the store for a minute....to which I
    replied...people like you deserved to have your car key scractched!!!
    needless to say....he watched me like a hawk as I wandered through the
    parking lot....sometimes I wonder if people leave their brains at home!
    

at another company I worked for (in a universe far, far away) one of my friends
was handicapped, and had a designated handicapped parking spot.  When someone
else parked in his spot, he would just park his car across the back, blocking
the offender's egress.  Sooner or later, Security would call him to say that 
the offender had discovered the offense, and could my friend please come down,
deliver the lecture, and move his car, please...

    Before you chastise an assumed offender because they appear healthy to
    you, please be certain that you are not mistaken. :-)  
    
    My father had congestive heart failure and could only walk a very short 
    distance, but was able to live alone, drive, etc.  He had a handicapped
    placard for his car and followed all of the rules, but on more than one
    occasion he was verbally abused by do-gooders who only saw him pull up,
    get out, and walk away.  Unfortunately they neglected to see the
    placard on the dashboard.  After one particularly scalding reprimand,
    he was so shaken he phoned for me to come drive him home.
    
    I agree that people who use handicapped spots to which they are not
    entitled are SCUM, but I'm not sure that sinking to their level
    improves the situation for anyone. :-) :-)
    
    -jer  

    Sometimes folks with a handicapped plate are not visibly handicapped. 
    They can walk, but not far.

    Last winter I broke my foot in such a way that I could not get a
    walking cast.  To get around, I used crutches and held my  foot up. 
    Even getting around the house was exhausting. I got a dashboard
    handicapped card for the car so I could get around.  However, in
    Massachusetts, a card is insufficient for parking in a handicapped
    space; a plate is required and they take a few weeks to get.

    It was a bad break and slow to heal, I was on crutches for close to 3
    months.  When the snow was bad I could not go out at all.  I
    occasionally parked in a handicapped spot, with the dashboard card
    prominently displayed.  I once barely escaped a ticket because the
    policeman was puzzling over the card when I arrived -- rather visibly
    handicapped.

    I am annoyed that the hospital-provided card is insufficient.  I am
    super annoyed at people without a handicapped plate and visibly hale
    who park in handicapped spots.

    My former father in law is handicapped.  We sometimes used his car,
    but did not park in the spaces unless he was with us.

    Having spent almost 12 weeks semi-handicapped, even knowing that I
    would heal eventually, made me very aware of how difficult it is to get
    around in an able-bodied world.  Even places that claim to be
    accessible aren't, or are only marginally so.  I couldn't handle stairs
    and found that most ramps are hellish to navigate, too steep.  Grocery
    shopping becomes a major chore, clothing shopping was nearly impossible.

       Margaret

    
    Go ahead, call me scum. I've done it. Maybe as many as 10 times in my
    life. (I think that number is high.) I also take the handicapped
    toilet.
    
    As a rule, I do it when I am in a hurry AND, when there are 4 spaces
    allotted, and at least 3 of them are empty. If there's only one, I
    don't take it.
    
    But I know that still makes me scum. When I'm in a hurry, a few names,
    a lecture I'll ignore, or key scratches on my car won't stop me.
    
    I park in NO STANDING/BUS STOP zones as well, if its a 5 minute thing
    or evening. The only thing I won't ever do is double park.

    My spouse, Jean, is handicapped and she does have a placard...When the 
    cards first came out folks did not know about them so we did get some
    comments about being in a handicapped spot....People would see me and
    figure that we were should not be in that spot...We acutally had a 
    officer of the law give Jean a real hard time about the card because
    he did not anything about them.....
    
    Jean is quite obvious handicapped...she has a full leg braced and is
    disabled but we still to this day get looks because people do not
    see the placard and are use to the plate....
    
    We appreciate the fact that people are saying something....but just
    be aware that there are different types of disabilies and not everyone
    is in a wheelchair...
    
    thanks,
    
    denise

   I get a bit annoyed when someone with a handicapped plate pulls up
   and use the spot and they are not the Handicapped person the plate
   was granted to, that person is not even in the car!  Grrrr.

   This wouldn't bug me so much except I know someone who does this,
   and his father can't even sit in the car, being as he has been in
   traction since his injury... Grrrr

   There's always a couple that take advantage...

    Allison

    In case anyone doesn't know ... obstructing a ramp in a curb is
  equivilant to parking in a handicapped spot ...

 
    I used to see that happen in boston all the time (I lived there for
  a couple of years) ... 



  -paul

	... and if you get ticketed blocking a handicapped ramp in the city
of Boston, there's a $100 fine!

	Mass does now permit placards.  My grandfather is waiting for one.

						--Doug

    
    
     One local mall down here had a real problem with folks using the
    Handicapped spots near the Post Office in the mall. Their response
    was to request the local police patrol the lot regularly. 
      The county police response was to post an officer AND A TOWTRUCK
    just around the corner of the building,,,
      scenario:
               Driver pulls into spot,parks car and gets out of car.
    .
               Officer asks for proof of eligibility to use spot
      
               Driver says "Sorry,,I'll move it elsewhere,,"
       
               Officer says"Don't bother,,you can pick it up at the
                 local impoundment lot" as he/she waves the towtruck
                 in. 
    
       I watched this happen more than once over a two or three week
    period,,lotsa folks arguing with the police,,using ALL the usual
    reasons/excuses...
       Worked GREAT,,word spread real fast,,
    
    Doug (Who's_always_tempted_to_flatten_TWO_tires_on_offender's_cars)       

    The woman who cares for my son is legally blind (Yes, she sees well
    eneough to care for a child).  She has handicapped plates on her car
    (her husband drives, she does not).  They always park in handicapped
    spots even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with the legs of
    either of them.  I can't understand why handicapped plates are granted
    to any one that has any kind of handicap.  I can understand them being
    granted to people that have leg handicaps, but blindness or the
    inability to use an arm, that's rediculous.
    
    Lori B.

    I've reported illegal use of handicap parking to service desk at
    stores, but no more.  They're attitude was usuall who cares and what
    do you expect me to do.  
    
    I will admit to trying to give 2 flat tires to one offender, but
    couldn't break the stem. 
    
    Those people are just as bad as those who park in the fire lanes
    to "just pop in for 5 mins", while everyone else can't get by.
    
    Linda
    

 I personally think that people who are not handicapped that park in 
handicapped spots ought to have their cars towed. No ifs, ands or buts.
(At their expense, of course.) Plus a $50 dollar fine.

 Of course, I think that anyone who parks like a jerk ought to suffer the same
treatment. :-)

    Before we go off the rails [I hope]
    
    It seems to me that the language in .18 was semi-lite; but 'ren's and
    similar offerings are not open invitations to respond with serious
    personal hurt-words.
    
     Ann Johnston
     =wn=comod

>>> Of course, I think that anyone who parks like a jerk ought to suffer the same
>>>treatment. :-)

ah, Doctah, I got the solution for ya.  We had a DIGIT here abouts with a fancy
car who used to park across two parking slots on the lot.  My friends and I
simply made it a policy to find that car and park on both sides of it, as
close as we could, in the same position as the car.  We followed it around the
parking lot for a few weeks before the driver got the hint and left the
precious machine at home.  "If it is too precious to park like a regular car,
it is wisest to leave it at home" is our philosophy.


		just call me D

    Mom's a physical therapist, so I was conditioned from an early age not
    to park in handicapped spots.  (I did it once -- accidentally, though,
    because the marking had faded to near illegibility.)
    
    One time a friend and I went to dinner at a restaurant and a lone woman
    pulled into a handicapped spot.  Kathy muttered, "What are you,
    mentally handicapped?"  (As it turned out, she just wanted to pump us
    for directions, so I'm glad we weren't noticeably rude.)

As a wheelchair user, I'm one of the people who are supposed to use
handicapped spots. Unfortunately all of the legislation around them
has made this difficult.

I don't live in the US, so I don't have a fancy photo-id placard from 
any state that identifies me as an 'official' disabled person.
When I do come into the US, I rent a car with hand-controls from any 
of the major companies, and they slap the controls onto a normal car, 
so there are also no special license plates. 

So, when I do park in a handicapped spot, the only way anyone knows 
that I'm one of the people who *should* be using it is by looking into 
the car to see if there are hand-controls. I usually leave a 
hand-written note on the dashboard saying something like
"out of state handicapped operator of hand-controlled rental car" 
which hasn't always stopped me from getting a ticket. I can remember 
being in LA and wheeling up to my car just as a cop was writing a 
ticket. He looked at me, looked at the ticket, and explained that 
while I was morally entitled to use the spot, I was technically 
against the law and should go to traffic court in 30 days time to get 
the ticket revoked. He said he couldn't just rip it up, because once 
written, they reconcile tickets to ensure no bribery. [Or something 
equally weird, it was a long time ago.] I have gotten a few tickets in 
Mass as well.

The impact of this is that if there are other non-handicapped spots 
nearby, I use them instead. 

I do get a little upset if the place where I need to park has no spots 
left (handicapped or otherwise). I imagine any of us would. :^)
If all of the non-handicapped spaces are taken, however, that's the
time when leaving the handicapped spots free is most important to me
and probably other people who need these spaces even more than I do
(cardiac difficulties most notably). While distance isn't a problem 
for me, the further away I park, the more likely there will be a curb 
or something as a barrier. 

What also bugs me is when there is an over-abundance of handicapped 
spots. I've seen parking lots with dozens of empty handicapped spots.
If they are rarely all used, they should 'de-handicap' some of them.
Having lots of empty spots encourages abusers.

As for 'punishment' of the offenders, that becomes more of a 
philosophical debate. Are fines/towing/amputation/whatever
the way of creating proper actions? Or should creating a society 
where people do what's morally correct because the action is morally 
correct and not because of avoidance of punishment be a goal. I'll 
leave that for the rathole or another topic.

Cheers,
George

 Just D,

 That's ok for people who intentionally take up two spots but I was more 
concerned with the more general case of incompetant/inattentive/oblivious
parking, such as when someone parks way off center and encroaches on the
next spot (I've seen people a full 2 feet over the line.) I think after
about two weeks of towing inconsiderate parkers, they'd get their act
together. (Aren't I mean and intolerantto expect competance and 
consideration?) :-)

 The Doctah

 PS- I don't mind intentional double space taking iff it is done in such
a manner as to not interfere with anyone else's ability to park, ie,
way down at the end of the lot.
 

    
    
    re .31
    
    
    Unfortunatly, I honestly believe that thee will always be people in our
    society who will NEVER choose to do what is morally correct if it is
    easier to do what works best for them.  As long as we are simple
    human beings, there will always be the need for 'punishment'.
    
    Cathy
    

well I guess I'd better 'fess up too.  In '82 I attended internal Decus at the
Sheraton Boxboro, the last week before I went on leave to have my first baby.
So I was 8.75 months pregnant, had gained 50 pounds, and friends it made me 
tired to get out of bed in the morning, let alone walk a lot or be on my
feet much.  So, when I got there I parked in one of the (2 or 3) handicapped
spots and went in to find a place to sit down.  About 15 minutes later, my
car's description & plate # was read over the loudspeaker, so I went back to
the door to meet Security.  When they saw me, their reaction was exactly the
same one I had been getting for the past 3 months -- Don't Drop It *Here*!!! --
and though they had me move my car, they provided me with a space nearer than
the quarter mile away I'd've had to walk otherwise.

maybe I should've asked first

    
    
    I just wnat to thank the person who was parking in the handicapped
    spots for not parking there anymore. 
    
    It wasn't really my intention to generate so much heat by this entry as
    create some awareness.
    
    ...so go back to what you were doing!
    
    Cathy
    

    I don't think I have ever knowingly parked in a handicapped parking
    spot, but I have been known to use the handicapped bathroom stall here
    at work.  When my back goes out (which doesn't happen too often anymore
    so long as I do not get lazy and skip doing the exercises the physical
    therapist assigned me!), I really appreciate those grab bars - one time
    when I grabbed the little waste basket thing that is bolted on the
    wall, the thing fell off - not only did I almost fall down in the
    process, but I had to pick up the wastebasket contents (ycch) and
    reassemble the darn thing - it is only held on by two screws that fit
    into slots on the back.
    
    I figure that if I need the help getting up in the bathroom, I qualify
    to use the one with the grab bars, more or less.
    
    /Charlotte

    I don't think using the handicapped bathroom stall is NEARLY the
    same issue as handicapped parking spaces.  At least in the bathroom
    stall case, the "offender" kind of HAS to be present; therefore, s/he
    can "move along" if someone with a real need has to use the stall.
    Contrast this with someone parking hir Porsche in the handicapped
    spot and then waltzing into the mall for half the day...
    
    Furthermore, the numbers just aren't the same... at least in the
    men's rooms at LTN, each has TWO stalls; one regular, and one
    for handicapped.  Imagine if you will a parking lot where 50% of
    the spaces are reserved........
    
    For that matter, how would one enforce it?  Tattoo a wheelchair
    icon on your you-know-where, and have an optical reader on the
    john?  ["Sorry, you can't use this!", as the lid slams shut...]
    
    On a somewhat more serious note... one problem with handicapped
    spots is that they're a great idea, but as soon as you hand the
    administration over to a bureaucracy, common sense and compassion
    go straight out the window (e.g. the previous noter who showed
    up IN A WHEELCHAIR and the cop gave a ticket anyway... or procedures
    that require the wheelchair-bound to jump through hoops [neat trick!]
    in order to get their certification...)
    
    --jim
    

    
    
    re .37
    
    ya know....your comments about 'parking the porche' and spending half
    the day in the mall reminded me of yet another one of those PARKING
    things that P's me off BAD!!
    
    Those folks who pull up to the gas pump, fill up their tanks and then
    go into the store, car still blocking the pumps, and SHOP for ten
    minutes...
    
    I HATE THAT.....the last time in fact, I walked into Kwik Way, with
    a line up of 4 cars waiting for gas and asked in a LOUD tone "who's
    parked in front of the gas pumps?" Turns out if was a couple of
    teenagers who were PLAYING VIDEO
    GAMES.....................................................................................................
    
    aahh.
    
    Cathy
    

    I once saw a slimeball leave a gym and get into his car which was
    illegally parked in an h-space.
    
    I just thought it was the height of yuppy irony.
    
    ed

    Is parking in handicapped spots a common thing? I've never noticed it.
    Most of the time the handicapped spots are unoccupied. Maybe there
    aren't very many handicapped people who shop at the same time and same
    place as I do.
    
    As to people who do park in those spaces when they're not entitled to
    it, I'd call them lazy. But calling them pond scum is IMO taking it too
    far.
    
    manisha

    Wait until Xmas time......you'll see 'em then......
    
    

    One time I spent a weekend at a New Hampshire hotel at a small
    convention.  Throughout that time, the three handicapped spots
    were always vacant.  When we left, however, a new group was coming
    in.  All the handicapped spaced were filled.
    
    Each with a car sporting a handicapped plate from a different state.
    
    		*		*		*
    
    When we first moved into our current building, there was one large
    red car that inevitably took the one handicap slot in the back.  This
    problem was resolved after a month.
    
    The car was finally granted its handicapped plates.
    
    						Ann B.

    ref. beaurocracy.
    
    Nowadays any new parking lots (like at my buiding) have to have 
    a certain percentage of spaces assigned as Handicap Parking,
    which can become silly.  IMHO, there are more H/C parking spaces
    here that really needed.  At least one of these is a normal size
    space (ie no extra room on the side).
    
    Linda
    

    I, too, used to curse out people who parked in handicapped spots
    thinking their handicap must be their eyes cause they can't read the
    sign!  However, I have a dear girlfriend who came down with this rare
    lung disease and can walk very far without being out of breath.  While
    she waited for her HP plates she felt awful about parking in that spot
    and often times didn't but sometimes had no choice.  So I learned from
    that I should MMOB (Mind my own business).  Just because someone
    appears not to have a handicap because they are not in a wheel chair,
    who are we to JUDGE?
    
    Hugs,
    Mary
    

Re: .42 "Good News"

More good news, from Digital's now closed down DLB5 site.
When a training seminar or other presentation open to nonsite
DECcies was held, there would not be enough parking spots
for all of the combined site and non-site people.  Cars would
park in non spots, on the curbs along the "street like" parts
of the parking lot, cars would even go across the street to
DLB12 to park.  All while the handicapped spots remained open.

Do the right thing.

Dan

    The law.....
    
    You MUST have handicapped plates or an authorized state issued placard
    to park in a handicapped space. DEC medical permits are not legal
    for designated handicapped parking. This is the reason that DEC has
    "Medical Permit" parking.
    
    The newest laws require that the designated spaces be large enough to
    accomadate transfer vans and their chair lifts. This is why the space
    is 12'-15' wide. Interestingly enough, h-capped persons in cars with 
    h-capped plates can be fined for parking in h-capped van designationed
    spaces.
    
    In many DEC sites, a headache is cause for some folks to park in a
    handicapped space. In many, many instances, managers are the worst
    offender. The new DEC policies dictate that medical permits may not be
    given for any greater than 6 months, otherwise a license plate is
    required. The problem is that the policy is ignored. The new permit
    hangs from the rearview mirror and has a number and says medical permit
    on it.
    
    Anyone who paks in a handicapped parking space is breaking federal
    "Equal Access" laws and can actually be arrested on a felony charge if
    the local police want to make them an example. Local police can enter
    any parking lot and tag a car in a handicapped space without a plate or
    legal placard without the owners' permission.
    
    
    Ken  

    Why in heaven's name do some stores have so many parking spaces for
    people with disabilities? Unless there's a people with disabilities 
    convention expected to converge on the mall, I can't see it.
    
    Speaking of parking spaces, our MR complex really gets to me. They
    have the following:
    
        * Visiter parking (let 'em hoof it!)
    	* Security parking( should be only for the cars that make rounds) 
        * Customer parking(good idea)
        * Field service parking (why?)
        * Nurses's parking (why?)
        * Medical permit parking(good idea)
    
    What's next? People who's surnames begin with D parking?
    
    
    By the way I do not park in handicapped spaces anywhere. I enjoy the
    walk and need the excercise.
    
    Kate

    	Well, I know it's an emotional issue (the idea of someone parking
    	in a handicap spot illegally) - but I'd really caution folks to
    	be very, very certain that the use was actually illegal before 
    	launching hate campaigns or violence against anyone for it.
    
    	In the Colorado topic that spawned this discussion, for example,
    	it turned out that the accusations of illegal parking at CXO3
    	in the past week or two were totally and completely false.
    
    	The car had a very visible "special permit" placard hanging from
    	the rearview mirror and had Digital's official sanction to park
    	precisely where the complainer found it.  The Security guard who
    	checked out the complaint verified the permit.
    
    	The topic in Colorado has been writelocked, etc. and the disabled
    	person has been trashed unfairly around the world via notes.
    
    	Are we having fun yet?

    I had the possibility to read the set-hidden reply which responded to
    reply .18 and I can only agree with it.
    Maybe the author of .18 used the word scum whith a smile, but in my
    eyes it is not far off the mark.
    
    Charles

    This string was spawned by a misunderstanding that has now been
    cleared away.
    
    It's a highly emotional issue for many -- and given the hurt that this
    misunderstanding caused as well as the insults and abuse being heaped
    upon those not judged to be handicapped [completely devoid of any real
    information], I think it needs to stop.
    
    Hence, I'm write-locking this string for the present to confer with the
    other mods.
    
    Regards,
      Ann Johnston
      =wn=comod