Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    the job.
    
    If I experience challenges and joy, and feel I am growing, as long as I
    can support myself fairly comfortably, I'm happy.
    
    And moreover, it's not just the job, but the workplace, and the people
    in it, and the possibilities for learning and growth, all combined,
    that makes the job attractive.
    
    I will admit that 3 things interested me in my vocational high school
    (cosmetology, fluid power (hydraulics, pneumatics), and electronics),
    and I chose the field that I hoped would earn the most after
    graduation, but I enjoyed all three.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    I'm speaking from experience...the job.  I expected to take a major
    pay cut when I head to the book store.  My district manager has wangled
    a way to keep my same pay...but I already accepted the other job and 
    had put my notice in here *before* I knew how much I would get.
    
    I came here for two reasons...benefits and money.  I can buy better
    benefits than I've been getting. And money just isn't worth not
    *wanting* to go to work.  I'll never seel out for money again.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.

    I don't make enough to take a $4-5/hour cut, so it would have to be
    the money.

    
    It used to be for the job...until I started HATING this job.
    Now it's a necessity of life. 
    It's more than just the $$. Seems that pay is also a measure of
    what your employer things of you.
    It's hard to feel good about what you do when it's obvious that the
    company doesn't think you're worth SQUAT.
    
    ....given a choice? The money. 
    
    

    right now I would say it is neither the job or the money keeping me
    here. I sit back and think that I have been with the company for
    10 years and am making X amount of dollars. I friend of mine got a job
    in Worc, Ma at Allegro (formally Sprague), has worked there since last
    Oct and is making 3 less an hour than I am. And it's not like she
    started at a glorious position either....people think working at DEC
    that everyone makes $60,000K or better....
    
    even though the ideal job may come along, if i had to make $4-$5 less
    an hour, I couldn't do it.....bottom line.......in it for the money (ya
    right, someday)

    The job (vocation, career, lifestyle...!)
    
    From my experience, if it's the right job, the joys of doing what I
    love make up for the $$.  If I can wake up psyched to do what I do for
    6-8 hours a day versus resigned to doing what I have to do for the day,
    that's worth any amount of dinaro.  After all, I want the $$ so I can
    get things to make me happy; I might as well just be happy first!
    
    I'm currently switching over from doing what I do (writing manuals) to
    doing what I love with massage therapy (and singing in a band and my
    latest, teaching aerobics!) ... letting go of security is hard but for
    me, WORTH it.
    
    "Do What You Love, the Money Will Follow" by Marsha Sinetar is a
    mind-blowing book if this question fascinates you!
    
    Pam

    If I could find a company that offered my $27,000/yr or more, I would
    be gone in a minute.  If you don't make a decent pay, then why 
    work?  
    
    Linda
    

    The money lets me have the things I want/care most
    about....our own house in the country, my horses,
    etc. etc.....
    
    I would love to change jobs to one I would enjoy, but
    I would have to give up too much of the things I have.
    
    HRH

    The money.  Without question.  Just finished reading a book where the
    protagonist's father always told her to "Have a firm handshake and
    always go where they pay you more money."  Seem wise to me!
    
    "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
    
    Sandy

I managed to stumble into a very satisfying, demanding, scary, and occasionally
frustrating job working for a non-profit organization focused on getting the
"hard core" welfare recipents off welfare and into the ranks of the working.

I loved that job - and I was poor.  I took the job straight from working as
a private consultant - and my pay cut was more than 50%.  Admittedly, I was
responsible for my own taxes and health care while a consultant...and I did
have a health plan, and normal tax withholding for the job at the CET, but
the net result in difference in pay was approx. 40% less spending money.
Luckily, I live pretty simply, except for the nice furniture I have these 
days....and which I've purchased since I returned to DIGITAL.  I didn't 
really miss the money, but I did have to do a lot of "pooling" of resources
with other folks at the center - I baked/cook/taught how to cook/taught how
to use a computer in return for car maintenance, for instance.

I would probably not have stopped working at the CET, but the program funding
dried up in the Reagan years.  I would certainly NOT be working here at
DIGITAL if I was not truly satisfied, challenged, terrified, exhilerated, and
entertained by the work I do.  I like my job.  I don't want a promotion to
a fancier title where my "window" of available tasks will be narrowed by
that title, and I have made that clear to my mangement...they are just a 
little confused by this as their program has been to help develop women 
executives and help get them promoted into management jobs.  I am NOT 
explained in the management training manuals. 

I am now making a great deal more money and I have some nice furniture for
the first time in my life.  I like that too...but, if this job does not
satisfy me in the future, I will go find one that does...and it will probably
pay much less and have a lot more to do with helping others DIRECTLY than this
current job...

after all, money enough to keep me a place to live where I can have
my cats and dog, clothed appropriately to be comfortable, clean to not be 
an insult to others, fed to be healthy and alert, and a little to put aside
for when noone wants my services is all I NEED.

Ultimately, satisfaction is a combination of job AND pay; pay me enough and
I'll do ALMOST anything... but it better be so damned much that I get to 
retire on about an hour's pay!  On the other hand, even the most ideal-est
job in the world is nothing if I can't afford a roof over my head for what
I'm being paid...

Here's a data point for you:  Some years back I was working at a startup
company that was burning me out big-time.  The place was losing money
as fast as it could, didn't have a decent product to sell, and I felt like
I was the only one who cared.  I burned myself out trying to give them
200% all the time and still it wasn't enough.  After enough of this, I
looked for another job, found one, and gave notice.  Naturally, they tried
to talk me out of it.  At the eleventh hour, my boss comes to me and says,
"Will you stay for $XXXXX?"  Now, $XXXXX was far more than I was fighting
tooth-and-nail to get during my job search, so I jumped at it.

Six months later, I was out of there.  $XXXXX wasn't enough to buy my
sanity, and I was losing it fast!

Now if it were $XXXXX * 100, well, maybe I'd have stuck it out for a
year or two 8-)

But I wouldn't have stayed forever.  Everyone has limits.

--jim

    The money, definitely. If I could make as much (and get a job) being a
    clerk in a San Francisco shoe store, I'd be gone.
    
    But programming is nice, for a day job. I'm much better off than most
    of my friends, as far as hours and fatigue and money goes.
    
    Ray

    It's a combination.
    
    "If you can't do what you like, you'd better learn to like what you do."
    
    To an extent that's true, at least for me.  I stuck out a job that was
    okay but not thrilling until something I *did* like tapped me on the
    shoulder for the same money, then I was gonzo.
    
    I've made it clear to my management, ever since my former supervisor
    offered me his job he left the group, that I am an individual
    contributor, not a management type.  i don't need the ulcers, thank
    you, I get enough doing what I enjoy!  But this philosophy is to some
    extent made possible by Digital's willingness to maintain a dual-
    ladder system.
    
    The personal pleasures of working in the specific place where I work
    cannot be overemphasized, but if they offered me a 25% pay cut I'd be
    outta here so fast they'd never even see me go.
    
    -d

    
    I agree with much of what was said in .11 and .13.  Ray, I loved what
    you said in .12! 
    
    For me, it's a combination like -d said.  Right now I think I'm in it
    for the money.  Changing direction in life can be expensive, and
    sometimes there are expensive lessons to be learned; sometimes just
    living is expensive!  (Even for a single person with no dependents.)
    One expensive lesson I learned was "don't abuse credit cards".  It took
    me a few years of aggressive outlay to pay off that lesson.  Then, 
    after a few more years of aggressive saving, I decided to quit working
    and send myself back to college.  During these times, I lived with my
    sister and her husband and all my household goods were eventually
    absorbed into their household.  After graduating, I got my current 
    job and moved into another established household; one where I didn't 
    need to acquire my own goods.  During this time I was able to 
    supplement my mother's income during a time of need but more or less 
    lived high on the hog for a couple years.  When I left that household 
    I had to buy everything I needed to establish my own household -- 
    expensive!  Now I'm in debt, so I need to make a decent salary to pay 
    it off in an acceptable amount of time.  After I pay off my debts, 
    I'll probably start thinking of what I'd like to "do next".  
    
    I've liked aspects of every job I've ever had -- some jobs it was only 
    the co-workers that made the job enjoyable, but it was still enjoyable
    and I derived great satisfaction from being a part of a tightly knit
    team; other jobs that were supremely distasteful in deed (washer woman 
    at a nursing home) remain memorable because of the emotional rewards of 
    interacting with the patients.  My current job is perfect in many ways
    but sorely lacks in any kind of substantial emotional reward.  The 
    money's good enough but I still have lottery fantasies.  The stress 
    level can be very, very high.  Right now my top priorities are taking 
    care of myself and paying off my debts.
    
    Cq 

	A little of both...

	Buying a house brings the financial aspect very much to the top,
but no matter how much someone paid me, if I weren't interested, I'd have a
hard time staying (perhaps even keeping) the job.

	And a lot of things come into play.  I thought seriously about
leaving my current job in DEC because my commute tripled, from 3 to 10
miles one way.

						--D

    Money.
    
    I like my job, but if money weren't an issue, I'd be a
    psychologist/social worker.
    
    D!

    Absolutely without doubt the money. Why else would I be a contractor.
    I'm also lucky that I like programming - most of the time. I have 
    friends that make a lot less than I do, work longer hours and  hate
    their jobs. I would also not be able to afford a decent place of my own,
    a decent car (more important than the house!), *and* a decent standard
    of living if I was not a contractor. There are times when I don't go 
    out 'cos none of my friends can afford to. If the money was no object 
    I'd become a helicopter pilot full time, and probably be out of work ! 
    (I'm gonna fly one part time anyway one day soon). I just love flying 
    and having *nothing* in your way to impede max. speed progress. I 
    suppose being brought poor has made me determined to avoid wanting for 
    things ever again. Still a little boy, just the toys are more expensive.
    
    Jerome.
                                

    
    As a single person, I did things for the love of the work itself
    (playing keyboards with a band, editing tracks in a studio) even though
    the money was sometimes absymal.
    
    Now that I've got a little girl, I find that the base cost of survival
    has increased, well, dramatically.  When it is time to fund a new
    version level of school clothes, Xmas, food, lodging, and the entire
    support structure required for a young one, then excuses don't cut it.
    Only money does . . . . . . .(and we won't mention the upcoming
    orthodontia ! ! !  . . . . . . ;-( 
    
    I still find things musical to do on the side, but DEC GMBH pays a
    whole lot more funds, in a creditor-pleasing monthly fashion, then
    gigging with a band ever would.
    
    Ars gratia artis. . . . but money for God's sake !

    re.15 >my commute tripled from 3 to 10 miles
    
    You're kidding, right? I know people who commute 60 miles to work
    in various DEC facilities. (I personally do 10 each way, used to 
    be 18 when I worked in WFO.) Doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
    Of course, I wouldn't want to do more, but unless I transfer, I'll
    have to, just to live where I want.
    
    Dana

good question.

next question.

    WRT: .19
    
    Knowing Doug, I can tell you no, he wasn't kidding.
    
    These things are all relative.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    					andrew

    To misquote the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers...
    
    Fun will get you through times of no money better than money will
    get you through times of no fun.
    
    As others have said, its a combination.  For me, the people I work
    with is the most important, after that comes the money and the actual
    kind of work.
    
    Mary

    Temping is a great job, but there are no benefits.  If I could get
    paid sick leave and paid vacation, I would still be temping.  You
    don't stay on a job long enough to get involved in any hassles.  If
    anyone really starts aggrivating you, just ask for a assignment.
    
    It's my ideal job.
    
    Linda
    

    I'd like to say the job, but if I made $3-$4 less an hour, I couldn't
    make it.

    re.23
    
    I know what you mean, exactly!

    Two years ago I left a company I had worked at for 7 years.  I started
    doing temp work and took a $600.00 a month cut in pay.  Sure, it was
    scary, I wasn't sure I would be able to meet the bills, but it worked
    out great!  When DEC hired me 9 months later, I was hired at $200.00 a
    month more than when I quit my first company.  For me, being happy what
    I am doing is more important than the money.
    
    Just my $.02
    
    Karen

    I need to feel that my work is valued so I expect to be paid well. But,
    I try to balance that with job satidifaction, lifestyle etc.  Last
    winter I was being wooed by a company for a good job with a starting
    salary somewhere between 40-60% more than I'm currently making.  The
    job was in NYC so would have meant a major lifestyle shift for me and I
    had some concerns about the culture of the company and the acceptance
    and support of a senior level woman.  Let me tell you even with those
    concerns, the $$$$ would have been a powerful lure.
    
    I was saved from making a decision.  They told me that they thought I
    was equally qualified to do the job and that in some ways they liked me
    better but they thought the guys in the field would react better to
    someone with an engineering background.  Suspect that my concerns were
    well founded.
    
    Polly

    coupla years ago i was offered 50+% raise + commission to move to new
    jersey and sell microscopes.  but it was a burn-out job with a burn-out
    company selling a lousy product.  in retrospect, i realize there were
    NO other technical women there, also.
    
    hard choice but i stayed.
    
    the $$'s important, very important.  there are lots and lots of jobs i
    can like, fewer that i can like and that can give me good bucks.  even
    fewer that can offer sanity+security on top of it.
    
    lt

I have to say the money but the job does count too. In my experience though, the
low paying jobs actually make you deal with more sh*t than higher paying jobs.
A waitress doesn't make near the money I do but I bet she gets more grief on a
daily basis than I do. 

On the other hand, I'd really rather be staring in the Field Service news video
than sitting at my desk filling out release management forms. liesl

    I can learn to like any job for the correcto dinero (money). 
    
    With 2 kids, a major pay cut would be a nightmare. Next month
    we'll need:
    		  2 pairs of winter boots
    		  1 snowsuit
    		  1 Halloween costume 
    
    After October starts Christmas shopping!!
    
    Actually, I like my job and don't mean to complain.
    
    Kate

    For me it has to be a combination of both.  My last job was with the
    state of Massachusetts and I was seriously underpaid for what I did,
    but, I had a lot of freedom, great people to work with and lots of
    learning opportunities.  I did not suffer.  Then a friend of mine got a
    job with Digital, and after about a year there was a great position
    with lots of potential which was very enticing.  If they had offered me
    just enough to make me competitive in my field, I would have taken the
    job for the potential.  When they made the offer, I had trouble
    speaking for a few moments 8-) and here I am.  Good company, good
    people to work with, great people to note with, and a job that is fun
    and exciting.  What more can you ask?  I passed up several jobs in
    between with much better pay but not much potential for growth or
    development, and I never regretted it.
    
    My 0.02
    8-)
    jimc

    re .30, if you could learn to like anything for the enough money, I
    feel I should tell you about one of the help wanted ads I saw in the
    Worcester Telegram last week - oil field workers, in Kuwait, $75,000. a
    year; engineers, in Kuwait, $200,000. a year.  Even if qualified, I'd
    rather pass on those jobs.
    
    There was also an ad in the Worcester paper for an "exotic dancer, will
    train, $500/wk."  That struck me as rather amusing, and probably would
    be more fun than working in the oil fields, in Kuwait.  But, then I
    realized that I'm not qualified for that either - too old, too shy and
    not the right body type.  Not that great of a dancer, either, to be
    honest.  :-)
    
    Seriously, though, I agree with pretty much with .31.  Ideally, I think
    it would be a combination of both.  Also, what people consider to be a
    lot of money can vary from person to person, and usually has something
    to do with how much money they're used to having.  For example, I would
    rather have a job I loved that paid $35K a year, than a job I hated
    that paid $75K a year.  (But, the important thing to realize here is
    that I don't make as much as $35K a year *now* and, while I don't hate
    my job, I don't love it either.  Basically, it pays the rent and
    somebody offered to pay my living expenses I could find plenty of other
    things I'd rather do.)  
    
    But, I'd rather have a job I loved that paid $25K a year than a job I
    hated no matter what it paid.  (When you're 85 yrs. old and dying
    nobody can give you anymore time, and they'll already be fighting over
    your money.)
    
    But, I couldn't take a job I loved if it didn't pay enough to survive
    on.  I wouldn't take a job I loved if it only paid $10-15K a year.  I'd
    rather work in an antique jewelry store than be a secretary at DEC but
    I couldn't get paid enough to live on.  But, I'd rather own a small
    jewelry store and make $30-40K a year than be an engineer and make
    $65K.
    
    Lorna
    

    Appropriate lines from a song on Van Morrison's new album.
    
    We all know that money, don't buy you love
    You just get a job and somewhere to live
    You have to look for happiness, within yourself
    And don't go chasin' thinkin' that it is somewhere else
    
    I was pretending all the time
    I was givin' everybody what they wanted
    And I lost my peace of mind
    And all I ever wanted was simply just to be me
                          
                                     - from I'm Not Feeling It Anymore
                                              by Van Morrison
    
    
    (I figure he must know.  He probably has more money by now than
    any of us do!)  :-)
    
    
    Lorna
    

    Jack Chalker spent a long time saying "I wouldn't write another Well
    World book for a million dollars."
    
    He is now writing another Well World book.
    
    He did not change his mind.
    
    							Ann B.

    re .34, what's a Well World book?  Is it a science fiction trilogy or
    something?  (oh, Ann, I'm so confused...)
    
    Lorna
    

    I want a legit job that pays $100,000/yr, that I can wear
    jeans, sneaks & a sweatshirt at, that is only 5 hrs
    a day....
    
    

    Lorna, Ann seems to be in full-tilt SF mode today.
    
    Yes, she's talking about SF -- the Well World series is much larger
    than a trilogy (how much larger, I don't know; I haven't read any
    of Jack Chalker's work -- he wrote the Well World books).
    
    Boskone if an annual SF convention -- it used to be held in Boston,
    now it's held in Springfield. MA.
    
    I have no idea about scorched earth whimsey.
    
    					andrew

    re.36 Lynne, you find that job, give me a call ;-)

    Re: .36
    
    Actually, I've often used something like that as a brush-off
    line when headhunters cold-call me:  "Well, if you can find
    me a seven-figure V.P. job where I don't have to do anything,
    then we'll talk!"
    
    On another note:  For April Fool's day this year, I posted a
    camped-up version of my resume to the USENET group "misc.jobs.resumes".
    It started out:
    
    	"Employment objective:  Seeking a thoroughly unchallenging
    	position with minimal performance requirements and maximum
    	material benefits"
    
    and went downhill from there.
    
    Would you believe that I actually got calls on it?  No, not offering
    the position mentioned above, but rather noticing that I had put the
    magic words "UNIX internals" on it and would I please-oh-please
    think of working for them anyway....
    
    --jim
    

A new well-world book? I'm so happy!  (Althoughif he's writing it just
for the money, probably won't be very good.)

Lorna, the Well World series is an sf series that is (currently) 5
books long. Or, more acurately, it is two books followed by a
trilogy.

D!