Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Lately, I've been overwhelmed by the stress of coming out and leading a
    lesbian lifestyle. I came out to most of my family about a year and a
    half ago and they've been supportive but my parents just want me to
    hide my sexuality. I know they love me but I think they'd be happy if I
    never told anybody that I'm a lesbian.  This really hurts me because I
    feel like I can't talk about all the great gay-related things that are
    happening in my life. I have a cousin who I think is a lesbian. When I
    was growing up I remember how my family would hush up when her name was
    mentioned. Even to this day my parents don't talk that much about her. 
    It's almost like she doesn't exist. I want to exist damn it. I don't
    want to be invisible.
    
    At my sister's wedding last year I came out to my noisy uncle who's
    always giving me the thrid degree about who I'm dating. He wouldn't
    believe that I was a lesbian. He even asked my sister if it was true. I
    guess he'll never ask me again about who I'm dating :-) My Mother was
    not happy that I came out to him. This really hurt me a lot. I feel
    like my sister, Judy, has made real progress in dealing with this
    situation. REcently she's been asking me a lot of questions about the
    gay lifestle and is really trying to understand what I'm going
    through. Does anyone out there in womannotes-land know of any PFLAG
    chapters out near the Milford area? What was it like going to a PFLAG
    meeting as a lesbian or as a hetereosexual who has a lesbian family
    member?
    
    I feel like I get totally lost sometimes in combating internal and
    external homophobia. It takes a lot of energy. It feels easier now
    fighting internal homophobia than it did two years ago. I don't know
    what it means anymore to have a relationship. It's been a year since I
    broke up with my first woman lover and I probably miss her more now
    than ever before. There were a lot of really nice things about our
    relationship that I miss a lot.  It's not just sex that I miss although
    that was wonderful but it's the talking and sensual things that we
    shared that I really miss too. Most lesbians I meet now either want to
    just have sex or just want to jump right into a relationship. I'm
    trying to just find a middle-ground between the two. Lea Delaria, a
    lesbian comedian has a joke about this: Question: "What does a lesbian
    bring on the second date?" Answer: "A U-haul". :-) :-) I love that
    joke!
    
    I really admire gay folks that when they like someone they just ask the
    person out on a date. THey don't stop to worry about whether the person
    they're interested in is heterosexual. I hope someday I can get to that
    point. There are some women I'd like to get to know better but I don't
    ask out because I think they're hetereosexual. For now I'm busy trying
    to just work on my lesbian 101 dating skills. Something I never learned
    growing up.
    
    I guess now that I have a tux (with tails) and some dental dams with
    instructions I can shed my baby-dyke status and advance to the next
    level-->teen-dyke ;-)
    
    Is it Friday yet?
    
    Laurie

    
               Laurie,
                        Your coming out like this is about as "gutsy" a
    thing as I've ever seen.  Since I'm a man and het, I know nothing of
    your problems.  Your relaxed, comfortable way of talking sure made
    it easier for me to both understand and *relax* with your being gay.
    
                        I wasn't going to respond to this note, but I
    wanted you to know how much I *respect* you life.  By the way...I
    do understand this dating thing.....it gets easier. ;^)
    
    Thank you,
    Dave

    Laurie,
    
    I don't know if this question has been asked before.  What is PFLAG?
    Parents and Families of Lesbians and Gays?
    
    E Grace

    PFLAG is Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays.
    
    Bonnie

Hang in there, Laurie.  It *will* get better.

As for your family, it took my mother quite a while to let me live my life,
and now she is getting pretty good at it.  However, for a few years, every 
time I told her that I was going to be doing something (getting married,
inviting my straight friends and coworkers to the wedding, having children,
etc) she was *appalled*.  After a year or so she would get used to each idea
and either accept it or applaud it.  Now she is pressing for the next
grandchild, but her first reaction had been, "*How* can you bring a child
into *that* environment?!"  Give your family time.  It took most of us quite
a while to realize and accept that we are gay/bi, and it will take most
of our families a while, too, but they can come through for us, especially if
we are comfortable with ourselves. 

As for dating and relationships, I used to do that, too.  I had this
starry-eyed version of love, and as *soon* as I had slept with someone, I
thought it was to be *the* relationship.  I scared off quite a few women that
way.  :-} 

After a while I figured out that I really wanted to *date* first, so I did.
When I met Shellie I laid down the ground rules, and she went along with them.
One of those rules was no sex for x amount of time.  It was hard for both of
us, but we've been together for 6 years now, and I'm glad we took the time to
get to know each other before sex.

The homophobia of many people can be hard for us to experience, Laurie, and
it is even harder when we are single and don't have a lover to soothe the 
hurts and listen to us when we need to talk.  When it gets hard for you,
Laurie, please remember that you are not alone.

   Gentle hugs,

           Carol

    	My mother also thinks it's ok, just so long as I don't talk about
    it or "act" it.  She thinks every time someone mentions that they're
    gay, they're flaunting it.  Never mind the extremely heterosexual pair
    of rings she flaunts.  She doesn't see why we have to sperate ourselves
    off so much, having our own bookstores and all.  When I mention the
    fact that other bookstores don't have (hardly) any books about gays and
    lesbians, she says that she doesn't see why we have to read those
    books.  I guess we should be content with books that are written as if
    we don't exist.  As for other seperatist activities, I guess she thinks
    it's pleasant to go to bars and get stared at or risk being beat up.
    
    	My Dad is much better, in a way.  When I came out, he told me he
    thought it was a stupid decision, but he loved me no matter what, and
    that I was free to make my own choices.  (Like it's really a choice,
    more of a realization.)  Stupid in that I'm "choosing" to be persecuted
    and an oddball for the rest of my life.  He said it kind of mean, at
    least I felt that way about it, but he's been nice ever since.  He
    even asks after Cyndy, which my mom will never do.  (We're married)
    
    	I think coming out gets worst about a year after you do it, when
    you fully realize the subtleties of what society is going to do to you
    for the rest of your life.  It's like the realization you get when you
    consider the patriarchy, and how we really don't have the same rights
    as men.  (Take back the night, 65 cents on the dollar, etc.)
    
    	Will we ever be an accepted part of society?  Not legally ruled as
    perverts?  Will we ever get benefits for our spouses?  Will people ever
    stop telling me I'm not married?  Will I ever be able to check the
    right box (single, married?) on forms?  Can I ever tell someone I'm
    queer without the song and dance and awkwardness?   
    
    	I hope someday everything will be better, for us, for women, for
    blacks, for Native Americans, and even for white males, many of whom
    regret the current system. 
    
    	I will say, for the listening audience, that these issues look very
    different to me now that I've come out then they did before, when I was
    "liberal with lots of gay friends".  I notice a lot more now, and
    things are scarier.  But, to be fair, I worry less about abortion laws,
    because that is not (rape excluded,) an issue with me.
    
    	Laurie, I tend to do the same as you, come out all over.  I hope
    someday everyone will know someone gay.
    
    	Talking about trials and tribulations, some woman in this building
    almost fainted a few days ago when I followed her in the bathroom. 
    Then she realized I'm female.  I felt like saying, in a nice tone of
    voice, "No, I'm not male, just a butch dyke".  But she probably
    wouldn't have taken it well.  
    
    Rachael
           

    
    	In reading the string of replies here something has peaked
    	my curiosity.  As I'm very naive about some aspects of the
    	gay/lesbian/bi lifestyle I hope I don't offend anyone.
    
    	How does a gay couple become married?  Is this a marriage
    	that is seen in the eyes of the law the same as a hetero
    	marriage would be?  Or is it a spiritual bonding of some
    	kind?
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    
    	JJ
    

Heh heh.  My mom seems to think it is all just a big kick that will
get boring after awhile, and then I will go back to my nice normal (ha,
little did she know) heterosexual lifestyle.  I asked her how long till 
she takes it seriously - she says, maybe if it' still "going" after
a couple of years.

>    	How does a gay couple become married?  Is this a marriage
>    	that is seen in the eyes of the law the same as a hetero
>    	marriage would be?  Or is it a spiritual bonding of some
>    	kind?

Gay people cannot get married in the eyes of any state in the United
States.  This is something of a point of contention (<--- major under-
statement.)  However, gay people can still publically declare their
love for and devotion to one another, exchange life-vows and have a 
ceremony to celebrate their couple-hood - couples who have done so
often refer to themselves as "married". There are a couple of churches
(Unitarian, for one) who recognize gay marriages.  There are a few
cities (or maybe just San Francisco) that allow couples who are not legally
married to declare themselves Domestic Partners, which, at this particular
time, doesn't convey much in the way of legal rights, but is a start.
 
>   	I will say, for the listening audience, that these issues look very
>    different to me now that I've come out then they did before, when I was
>    "liberal with lots of gay friends".  I notice a lot more now, and
>    things are scarier. 

Seconded.  I have always been supportive of gay rights, have always wanted
to vote the "right" way, etc.  But it wasn't till the first time that I walked
down the street with my arm around my SO, approached a group of roudy looking
boys, and *dropped* *my* *arm* beause I was frightened that it really hit 
home exactly what the whole gay rights thing was about.  (Anyone who knows me
will realize just how intimidated I must have been to actually let other
people interefere with my actions.)  I became suddenly enraged.  (i have had 
other "clicks" since then, but that was the first.)

D!

    
    When I changed jobs a little over a year ago, I decided that I was
    going to be out, not that I would announce it to everyone I met, but
    that I would just talk about my life the way anyone in a nonstigmatized
    orientation would do.  It has felt very comfortable for me.  I know
    there must be some folks who are uncomfortable with me, but I figured
    that even when I wasn't as open, it was probably clear to most people
    that I am lesbian (this may be an invalid assumption on my part), and
    the only difference now (and it's a big difference to me) is that I
    don't act like I'm ashamed, that I need to keep it a secret.  That
    makes me feel more powerful and more comfortable, and I feel like it's
    a positive image of lesbians to put out there.  I talk about my partner, 
    our house, how we spend our holidays, etc.  
    
    My family situation is pretty awful, but it always was.  My father
    still hasn't forgiven me for deciding not to be a lawyer (like him),
    and this "psychological problem" is just one more terrible thing I did
    to him.  My mother has made an effort, but I think the best I can hope 
    for with her is that when I see her, it won't be too awful.  
    I think the stuff in my family has very little to do with my
    orientation, though.
    
    I'm working on building a new family -- one that wants me to be in it.
    
    Justine
           

    The Quaker faith also recognizes same-sex marriages.
    
    
    >>    I'm working on building a new family -- one that wants me to be in it.
    
    Justine, can I be part of it?  please?
    
    E Grace

    Heh heh.  I just remembered two years ago when I started noting here -
    over the following year or so I gradually became aware of how *many*
    Lesbians there are in =wn=.  I was *shocked*.  I found that even I, the
    super-gay-supportive-friendly-politically-correct straight had been
    making assumptions about the sexuality of the people in here.  I love
    in when a note like this allows more Lesbian visibility in =wn=.  (I
    support Lesbian visibility everywhere, mind you.  :-)
    
    D!

    I'm a little confused by the 'very heterosexual rings' remark.
    
    _most_ of the gay married people that I know exchanged some sort of
    ring or token along with their vows.  To my [perhaps undiscerning]
    eyes, most of the couples have rings that are more 'mainstream' than 
    my own.
    
    [in fact Bill & Bill gave each other _new_ rings at their 10th
    anniversary re-statement of vows]
    
    is this not 'done' ?  or am I hanging out with a real traditionalist
    crowd?
    
      Annie

    I think alot of you know that I have been married for 12 years and that
    I have had my trials and tribulations with the relationship but I have
    to say that because of alot of support from friends and family that
    it helped Jean and I worked things and to remain a family...
    
    The coming out process is a h*ll of a process but I think it needs to
    come one step at a time.  It starts with family and then maybe each
    person that you meet you confide in.  This is the way that I can do
    it and feel comfortable and not feel threathened.
    
    I wouldn't change anything about my life.  I have more love and
    happiness from those close to me than I could ever want....
    
    
    Always be proud of who you are...
    
    denise
    

    
    	re: D!
    
    	Thanks for the explanation.  I thought it was something along
    	that line.
    
    	JJ
    	

    I've seen lots of gays and lesbians exchange rings, but I've never seen
    the traditional wedding band/engagement ring set on a lesbian.  Yes,
    lots of gold bands, but never a big diamond (or even a little diamone)
    engagement ring.  To me, that screams "straight".
    
    Rachael

    
    I've seen wedding band/engagement rings on older lesbian couples,
    never on anyone in my generation.
    
    Carla
    

    
    Hmm... maybe a tasteful pinky ring with a small diamond..:-) but I can't
    imagine giving or getting the traditional "rock" kind of diamond
    engagement ring.  But I think there was a time in our (lesbian) culture
    when women really tried to mimic much of the behavior they saw in
    heterosexual culture.  Some women may still be comfortable with that,
    but I'm glad that many of us have started to build new kinds of
    relationships that are unlike anything else we ever saw in our parents
    or watched on TV.  I suspect the 60s might have had something to do
    with this -- it became permissable (desirable even) to rebel against
    the ways of our parents.
    
    Justine
           

    
    Denise said it well in .14.

< The coming out process is a h*ll of a process but I think it needs to
< come one step at a time.  It starts with family and then maybe each
< person that you meet you confide in.  This is the way that I can do
< it and feel comfortable and not feel threathened.
    
    It's comming out that's the difference between straight and alternate
    lifestyles.  That's my own experience not that I'm any expert...;-)
    
    Allison
    

    

    Wow, I can relate to a lot of what's been said here!  Nice topic,
    Laurie!  Here are few things that are topical for me today.
    
    In the past week I've been feeling despair and loneliness which seems
    to be related to being a single lesbian.  I must be suffering from a
    case of PVDD (post valentines day depression).  Our culture places
    great importance on being in a relationship and except for two brief
    encounters, I have been single for the last six years since I came out. 
    Most of my dates have been one-time encounters becuz I didn't feel the
    click with the other woman.  A few have become friends.
    
    I used to go through this stuff alone, but now I am able to connect
    with friends, other support networks, and with my own self.  I've
    caused myself a lot of grief by trying to intellectually dismiss my
    desires for physical intimacy and companionship.  I decided I was happy
    being single and living alone and that was that.  I feel a lot of fear
    about opening up to my true desires.  Fear of being hurt and
    disappointed again by relationships that don't seem to quite work out.
    
    Apart from my relationship issues, other areas of my lesbian life have
    also been budding.   I've been out at work for over two years.   I wear
    my favorite dyke jewelery all the time and I've decoreated my cube with
    pictures, posters, and of course my "Dykes To Watch Out For" calendar.
    
    For the first time in my life I feel an affinity with a larger
    community, a community of sisters which whom I share a common theme. 
    It's a lot of work being a lesbian.  Before I came out life was very
    simple and very unsatisfying.  I felt one-dimensional.  My public
    interface with the world was strictly professional and self-censored so
    that I never expressed anything that was at odds with the predominate
    culture.  I guess one could deduce I was a lesbian by what was missing
    from my personna; ie, romantic interest in men.  Being a lesbian is
    difficult becuz it means finding out who I really am, what I really
    want, and cultivating the courage to express my beingness.  
    
    The bottom line for me is that I like being a dyke and I wouldn't have
    it any other way.  
    
    Nancy
    

I often hear the phrase "lesbian lifestyle," from lesbians and people from
other orientations. It always takes me aback. When I think of lifestyle,
I think of things like rural/big-city/small-town dwellers, white/
blue/pink collar workers, parent or non-parent, the bar/church/music/
couch potato/whatever scenes, early-riser/nightowl habits, vegetarian or 
Big Mac eaters, political/apolitical, upper/middle/lower class, etc. etc.
etc. My lifestyle may or may not be similar to another lesbian's
lifestyle, just as it may or may not be similar to the lifestyle of a
straight person.

Do Barbara Bush and the straight woman at the end of my street who's struggling
to get by on welfare share the same lifestyle? They do have some things
in common: they're both women, they're both heterosexual. But I doubt
they share a common lifestyle.

So, I guess I see one of the trials of being a lesbian as being viewed
as a one-dimensional, singlefaceted entity. One of the good things about
that trial is that it makes me more sensitive than I might otherwise be
to a person of another minority who may feel reduced to a single dimension.

Kathy

    
RE: .2

>>>               Laurie,
>>>                        Your coming out like this is about as "gutsy" a
>>>    thing as I've ever seen.  Since I'm a man and het, I know nothing of
>>>    your problems.  Your relaxed, comfortable way of talking sure made
>>>    it easier for me to both understand and *relax* with your being gay.
    
Thanks Dave :-)


>>>                        I wasn't going to respond to this note, but I
>>>    wanted you to know how much I *respect* you life.  By the way...I
>>>    do understand this dating thing.....it gets easier. ;^)
    

This is good to know. I feel like I'm going through puberty all over again...
27 going on 14 ;-)

RE: .5

>>> As for dating and relationships, I used to do that, too.  I had this
>>> starry-eyed version of love, and as *soon* as I had slept with someone, I
>>> thought it was to be *the* relationship.  

This seems to be running rampant in the lesbian community.

>>>   Gentle hugs,

I feel better already!

RE: .6

>>>    	I hope someday everything will be better, for us, for women, for
>>>    blacks, for Native Americans, and even for white males, many of whom
>>>    regret the current system. 
    
I hope so too.

>>>    	Laurie, I tend to do the same as you, come out all over.  I hope
>>>    someday everyone will know someone gay.
    
I think most people have a friend,relative,co-worker etc. who is a
homosexual or a bisexual they just might not know the person is gay/bi. 

RE: .9
    
>>>    When I changed jobs a little over a year ago, I decided that I was
>>>    going to be out, not that I would announce it to everyone I met, but
>>>    that I would just talk about my life the way anyone in a nonstigmatized
>>>    orientation would do.  It has felt very comfortable for me.  I know
>>>    there must be some folks who are uncomfortable with me, but I figured
>>>    that even when I wasn't as open, it was probably clear to most people
>>>    that I am lesbian (this may be an invalid assumption on my part), and
>>>    the only difference now (and it's a big difference to me) is that I
>>>    don't act like I'm ashamed, that I need to keep it a secret.  That
>>>    makes me feel more powerful and more comfortable, and I feel like it's
>>>    a positive image of lesbians to put out there.  I talk about my partner, 
>>>    our house, how we spend our holidays, etc.  
    
You're truly a beautiful woman Justine! I admire you for being open and
*talking* about it at work.  I don't hide my sexuality at work and I've
come out to several people. I haven't reached the point yet where I feel
comfortable talking about my lesbian lifestyle with all the folks that work
around me.  I might say I went out dancing Sat. night but I didn't go into
details about the women I danced with,drooled over etc. I'm working on this
though. There are a few people at work I do talk to and feel comfortable
talking about it with. I put my Gay women's Calendar on my wall this year.
It's gotten some interesting looks and responses from my co-workers. It's
kind of amusing watching people react to it. They look at it, there's a 2
second silence and then it registers what this calendar is about ;-) Oh,
February by the way is a lesbian couple one with her arms around her
partner. And November is the cutest lesbian I've ever seen :-)

RE: .12

>>> It's gotta be hard, and gays need all the support they can get.  Laurie,
>>> will a supportive hug from a hetero male do any good?  >hug< 
    
Yes, I will accept a hetero-male-hug ;-)

RE: .14

>>>    I think alot of you know that I have been married for 12 years and that
>>>    I have had my trials and tribulations with the relationship but I have
>>>    to say that because of alot of support from friends and family that
>>>    it helped Jean and I worked things and to remain a family...
    
I really like to hear that *some* lesbians stay together this long. I hope 
someday I'll find that special soulmate that I can build a 
relationship/family with.

Laurie    

    Rings...
    
    I like rings that have a mix of gems, like rubies and diamonds.
    Not that I could ever afford to buy one but its nice to dream. I wear a
    gold celtic spiral ring which symbolizes never-ending relationships. I was
    at a meeting one night and a lesbian couple there both had celtic
    spirals on. We were kidding everyone and saying that the three of us
    were married :-)
    
    
    Laurie

Kathy, I know what you mean about looking at a subgroup as some sort of
monolithic identical mass...

But at the same time, I think referring to the "Lesbian Lifestyle" is as
valid as reffering to *any* lifestyle. I mean, you mention thinks like class
or vegetarianism.  Is the 35 y.o. middle-class stay-at-home mom with 4 kids and
a white picket fence leading the same life as a 20 y.o. middle class gay 
leatherman?  Is the strict Hindu vegetarian who is am immigrant from India
and working as a lawyer in New York City leading the same life as the 
Lesbian Seperatist vegetarian working as an artist and living in a commune in 
Oregon?  No, these people are leading very different lives, but vegetarians
have at least *one* thing in common in their lives - and that one thing, if
it is very important to them, probably affects the rest of their lives in 
similar way.

Same with Lesbianism. While it is true that we are all seperate and distinct
and have radically different lives, there is a common element among us, and
experiences are often amazingly similar.  When I read peoples coming out
stories, it is amazing how two people who have seemingly nothing in common
can share so much.

D!

    at the risk of saying it _all_ wrong ...
    
    the lesbian women in my life that I love and value are no less varied
    in their 'lifestyles' as the general population -- some are married,
    some are 'living together', some are dating, some are what I would
    class as indiscriminate, some are celibate.  Some are introverts, some
    are extroverts, and most fall somewhere in-between.
    
    it bothers me when I hear on the radio 'writing to her lesbian lover
    now serving in the Gulf...'  it makes me _angry_ that the word
    'lesbian' is used ... not that I dislike the word, but the importance
    of making this distinction frightens me, as if love and commitment were
    so common that _some_ love should be hidden or even punished.
    
    I have no doubt that I sound terribly naive.  I _know_ it's different
    because I've seen how distinctions like this have torn up friends
    inside.  But what can I _do_?  My endless letters to legislators and
    spirited discussions with military persons of power have left me with
    the feeling that the words and convictions of a heterosexual, upper-middle-
    class, caucasian woman are about as meaningful in the context of gay/
    lesbian issues as a feather boa on a cheese Danish. [not that I've
    given up, but some days it's tough ...]
    
      Annie

Annie,

I agree that people *should* be blind to orientation, except when it directly
concerns them (as in, in selection of a lover.)  But that only works in a
whole *society* which is accepting of orientation.

the problem is that we live in a society which hardly even knows Lesbians
exist, and when it does notice them, it writes them off as perversions.
Have you heard the phrase "Lesbian invisibility?"

I *love* to hear things like "...writing to her Lesbian lover in the gulf"
because it helps promote Lesbian visibility.  It helps force people to 
realize that there *are* Lesbians out there, that we aren't just a product
of heterosexual men's fantasies in Penthouse pictorials.

it shouldn't matter, but it does.  And while it does, I think it is more 
important to impove visibility than it is to pretend that it doesn't matter.
The woman whose Lesbian lover is fighting in the gulf now is not leading the
safe life as the woman whose husband if over there.  She should be, but she 
isn't, and while she isn't, it helps her cause and ours to make that
difference very visible.

This is an age old debate.  Some Lesbians want Lesbian pop stars etc to come
out, because they provide visibility, role models, etc.  Others think that
it shouldn't matter, and if other pop stars don't make their sex and love 
lives public, why should the Lesbian ones?  Both points of view make some
sense, but I believe in the former.

D!

I agree, D!, a lesbian lifestyle is as valid as a vegetarian lifestyle.
It's just that I find that the term "vegetarian lifestyle" tries to
define way too much. :-)

I prefer a a little wider picture, that's all. Personally, I just use
the word "lesbian" or "vegetarian" and leave out the word "lifestyle."
Once you tag the word "lifestyle" onto either one of those words, it
gives a whole new message. 

Kathy

Annie,

Thank you for recognizing our diversity. Like D!, I see a lot of value
in increased lesbian visibility. There are so many in this world who
forget that the world isn't 100% heterosexual. I'm especially
pleased to see that there is considerably less shock registered over the
word lesbian now than there was only five years ago.

>                                     My endless letters to legislators and
>    spirited discussions with military persons of power have left me with
>    the feeling that the words and convictions of a heterosexual, upper-middle-
>    class, caucasian woman are about as meaningful in the context of gay/
>    lesbian issues as a feather boa on a cheese Danish. [not that I've
>    given up, but some days it's tough ...]

It does feel like an uphill battle, but it *is* a help, a big help, when
politicians, the military, and other peole hear about les/bi/gay issues
people like you. Thank you for speaking up!
    
Kathy

    D!
    
    I take your point about 'writing to her lesbian lover in the Gulf' and
    Lesbian Invisibility as well.  I hadn't thought in terms of visibility.
    Thank you.
    
    And I don't advocate 'blindness' to orientation; acceptance and value
    are more what I had in mind.  In fact 'blindness' is a rather offensive
    term, to me, that feels like ignoring or looking the other way. No,
    that's not what I want.
    
    probably what had me shreiking back at NPR on the whole letter writing
    thing was personalising what I was hearing [I'm very egocentric].  I
    mean here is a woman whose life-partner is serving in a hazardous
    situation and may not come home and she can't even write how much she
    misses her and just wants to hold her [except in code] for fear that if
    she _does_ make it home her career will be ruined. [If it was _me_
    writing to my _husband_ it'd be in the bloody New York Times Sunday
    supplement and grandmothers in Middle America would gently dab a tear
    from their eyes over their coffee -- a fr*gging American Dream!!]
    F*CK IT!!! it's in-human!! Let's cut through all the b*ll-sh*t here and
    come to grips with what we're talking about here...how is this woman
    _really_ different?  She doesn't have my rights. Pfthaw! pthooey!
    
    >>>CLICK!!!<<<  [and a sh*t-load of granite]
    
    I'm so frustrated and I feel so impotent, I could implode!!!
    
      Annie

Annie, I agree completely. I think it totally sucks that the woman can't
say the same things to her lover than she would be able to say to a male
lover.  :-(   I think about these things and they bother me every single
day. I don't know what to do either - I march, I write letters, I try and
spread understanding when I can (sometimes though, like yesterday, I lose
all patience and kind find it in me to "do my duty" with regards to teaching
tolerance.)

I don't fault NPR for their reporting, though.  I didn't hear the broadcast,
but from what you said, it sounds like this was a good way to spread the
information that there *are* Lesbians in the military.  I mean, just think -
if everyone personalized it the way you did - and said to themselves, as 
you did "Hey, this situation SUCKS!  This is NOT FAIR!" imagine how far that
would carry us!

Posted elsewhere I have seen "heterosexual questionaire" where questions
are posed to a hypothetical heterosexual audience that are the equivalents
of questions asked of LesBiGays every day.  Like "When did you decide you
were heterosexual?" and "Maybe if you just had a good lover of the same
sex you would switch" and "Doesn't it bother you that most child molestors
are heterosexual?"  The idea is that asking these questions, heterosexuals
listening will personalize the questions, and suddenly realize how painful
and absurd their questions are.  I don't know if it works, but that is the
theory.

D!

    re.33 yeah? well, D!, quite several of my friends say that if I could
    just find a _good_ woman, I'd give up 'this whole heterosexual phase' I'm
    going through and settle down to good living, :^}
    
    the NPR broadcast wasn't my first >click<, just the latest.
    
    My friends, the Bills, [who aren't lesbian being of the wrong gender]
    opened up a whole new world.  While they weren't the first couple I'd
    known, they were a part of my life when I was going through some
    serious 'rite of passage' stuff -- mortgages, wills, life insurance,
    medical insurance, decisions around children -- the 'grown-up stuff.'
    Not always easy if you are a pink and white heterosexual couple, but
    _hell_ for them.
    
    Banks bent over backwards to get us into our house;
    but didn't want to talk to B&B -- considering that our household income
    was under $30K and there's was over $70K ...  >click<
    
    When the Bill I worked with was in an auto accident, the hospital
    wouldn't let the other Bill in to see him until Bill #1's mother said
    it was OK ... _excuse_ me?  A successful lawyer in his early 40's needs
    his lover's mommy's _permission_?!? >click<
    
    A woman I know in Maine, her mother is a dear friend of mine, lost
    custody of her daughter when her spouse became temporarily
    incapacitated.  Her spouse was the one who _had_ the child and this
    woman was clearly not the 'father' >CLICK< ... the mother-in-law
    swooped down and absconded with her grandchild; now they can't get her
    back ... well, I should say they haven't got her back _yet_; this fight
    is _not_ over
    
    I have mostly prided myself upon being open and accepting.  But somehow
    that is _not_ enough.  It's all very well and good to say 'lesbians and
    gays should have all the rights, priviledges, choices that I do.' I
    really do believe that; but if I merely sit back and enjoy my
    priviledged edge ...
    
    Just when I think I've got a grip on one facet another of those damned
    >click< pop up ... I'm hip deep in them.  Goodness, where do I start?
    The right to marry? The right to children? The right to actually _be_?
    
    [deep breath ...]
    
      Annie
    

So - how do we bottle that "click" of yours?  And once we do, what shall we
do with it?  Pour it into the water supply?

Kinda depressing that they people most likely to have these "clicks" you
describe are the ones who are sensitive to the problem to begin with, and
would therefore be at least somewhat supportive without the click.  The
people who *really* need to click are the raving homophobes, who never will.

*sigh*

>well, D!, quite several of my friends say that if I could
>    just find a _good_ woman, I'd give up 'this whole heterosexual phase' I'm
>    going through and settle down to good living, :^}

Well, my number if (508) 453...
 :-):-)

D!

    This is a questionnaire that has been distributed  by Queer Nation 
    (a radical LesBiGay visibility action group) at a number
    of QN events.  It is food for thought.
    
    D!                                          
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    	                 HETEROSEXUAL QUESTIONNAIRE*

1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality? 

2. When and how did you decide that you were a heterosexual? 

3. Is it possible that your heterosexuality is just a phase that you may grow 
   out of? 

4. Is it possible your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of
   the same sex? 

5. If you've never slept with a person of the same sex, is it possible that
   all you need is a good gay or lesbian lover? 

6. To whom have you disclosed your heterosexual tendencies?  How did you 
   react?

7. Why do you heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into your 
   life-style? 

8. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality?  Why can't you just be
   what you are and keep quiet about it? 

9. Would you want your children to be heterosexual knowing the problems that
   they'd face? 

10. A disproportionate majority of child molestors are heterosexual.  Do you
    consider it safe to expose your children to heterosexual teachers? 

11. With all the societal support marriage receives, the divorce rate is 
    spiraling.  Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals? 

12. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex? 

13. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race
    survive if everyone were heterosexual like you? 

14. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist to be objective?  Don't you
    fear (s)he might be inclined to influence you in the direction of her/his 
    own leanings? 

15. How can you become a whole person if you limit yourself to compulsive,
    exclusive heterosexuality, and fail to develop you natural, healthy 
    homosexual potential?

16. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals.  Techniques have been
    developed that might enable you to change if you really want to.  Have
    you considered trying aversion therapy?



*   Reprinted from "Are You Still My Mother" by Gloria Guss Back.  Warner
    Books, 1985.  Questionnaire attributed to Martin Rochlin, Ph.D.,
    West Hollywood, CA.
    
    
    

D!,

Thanks for entering that.  It really *does* make one think....

Sue

   One of the biggests misconceptions I have encountered, even from supposedly
    supportive straights, is that I would rather be straight than gay. 
    that my sexuality is an unforunate fact of nature, and that if I could
    have an operation to make me straight, I would.  I tell that my
    sexuality is as much a part of my being as my mind and body, and that I
    would no more want to be straight than I would want to be taller or
    shorter, good at poetry instead of engineering, have a different color
    hair or be born to different parents, because I like who I am and all
    thses things are inherent parts of me; they look at me like I'm crazy. 
    I thought this piece (which I pulled off the net from somewhere quite a
    while back) expresses my thoughts on it quite well...
    
    D!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
From "A Disturbed Peace" 
By Brian McNaught

"I Like It", November 1978

A young medical student finally blurted out the question which had been 
gnawing at him.  "Do you ever regret being gay?"
    "No," I said with a growing smile.  "Sometimes I regret beging 
so totally identifed with my sexual orientation, but I never regret 
being gay."
    "Wouldn't you rather be straight?" asked one Jewish talk show 
host.  "Would you rather be Christian?" I asked.
    "Think of all the hostility you face," commented one black 
woman.  "Because of that, wouldn't you prefer being heterosexual?"
    "Who's telling who about hostility?" I queried.  "How much 
would it take you before you wished you were white?"
    As supportive as they might become, straight people have a lot 
of difficulty thinking of homosexuality as an intrinsic part of a 
person's psychological makeup.  Even if they can be convinced that gay 
people didn't choose to be gay, they still need to hear us admit we 
would rather be like them.
    I like being gay.  I like knowing there is something unique 
and even mysterious about me which seperates me from most of the rest 
of the world.  I like knowing that I share a special secret with a 
select group of men and women who lived before me and with with those 
special few who will follow.
    I like walking at life's edge as a pioneer; as an individual 
who must learn for himself the meaning of relationship, love of 
equals, sexuality, and morality.  Without the blessing of the Church 
and society, my life is one outrageous experiment after another.  I 
like knowing that if I settle into a particular frame of thought, it 
isn't because I was raised to believe that's the way things must be.
    I like knowing that I can go anywhere in the world and meet 
someone who will smile that knowing smile which says "Yes, I know; me 
too.  Isn't it nice not to be alone?  Hang in there."  It is a twinkle 
and a smile which results not from being white or male or Catholic or 
American.  It is a secret smile which only gay men and lesbians 
exchange.
    I like exchanging that knowing smile with waiters in 
Galveston, airline stewards in Terra Haute, theater ushers in Detroit, 
salesmen in Boston, and sunbathers in Sarasota.  I like to give and 
receive those smiles at Mass, at lectures, in department stores, at 
the laundromat and on the street.  I like the feeling I'm not alone.
    I like believing the studies which indicate gay folk are 
generally smarter, more creative, and more sensitive than non-gay 
folk.  It makes me feel "chosen".  I like knowing that a gay man's 
dinner party will usually be more elegant, that a gay-orchestrated 
religious service will usually be more artistic and that a gay disco 
will generally be more fun.
    I like knowing that there is far less class division to be 
found at most gay parties.  Janitors and lawyers and truck drivers and 
librarians are bound to unknowingly bump elbows and even likely sit 
next to Lily Tomlin, Paul Lynde, or half of the Ice Follies.
    I get a kick out of knowing that anti-gay people are probably 
wearing clothes designed by a gay person, living in a home decorated 
by a gay person, attending a play performed by a gay person and 
participating in a Sunday service celebrated by a gay person.
    I laugh when I think of anti-gay men cheering gays on the 
football field and learning about other scores from a gay 
sportscaster.  I especially love the thought of anti-gay Catholics 
praying to gay saints.
    I like being gay for all these and many more resons.  
Primarilly, though, I like being gay because it is an essential aspect 
of who I am... and I like myself.
    

Yeah, I like being a lesbian too -- if I wasn't, I'd have to find
something *else*.  I see my youngest (straight) brother, trying to be a rebel,
but without a cause (so to speak).  It's much easier, I tell him, to have your
cause handed to you, rather than have to find and pick one. :-)

	MKV

    Yup.  I have always been Queer, but at least now I can be accepted as a
    Queers (if the shoe don't fit...) because my sexuality is in line with
    my politics.  :-)
    
    I like being a dyke every time someone beeps and waves because I have
    a pink triangle on my car.  I like being a dyke when I march in Pride
    parades.  I like being a dyke when I go to Campus and look around me at
    all the amazingly beautiful, sexy, fun-loving and exciting women around
    me.
    
    D!

    D!,
    
    Could you explain the pink triangle?
    
    Kate

    To the best of my knowledge, the Pink Triangle was forced on
    homosexuals in Hitler's Third Reich in the same way as the Jews were
    forced to wear the Star of David.  It may have had earlier antecedents
    but that's my recollection of its earliest appearance.  It has since
    become a badge of honor and pride and openness in the Gay community,
    much as the Star of David was and is, in its.

    re: 42
    
    what you say is true... except, a pink triangle was forced on male
    homosexuals.  lesbians, grouped together with prostitutes, were forced
    to wear a black triangle. i think the black triangle was used to
    identify "female deviant sexual behavior"?
    
    ~robin

    I'm posting this for a member of our community who would like to remain
    anonymous at this time.
    
    Justine
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I'm writing this because I'd like to know if there are other women who
    have feelings similar to mine.  There's been some recent discussion of
    Lesbians, bisexuals, and heterosexuals.  I honestly feel like I don't
    fit in to any of these categories, and it makes me feel very much alone
    since I'm afraid to discuss it openly.

    When it comes to love or emotional bonding, I want women.  When it
    comes to sex, I want men.  I just do not seem to fall in love with men,
    but I do want to jump their bones.  I do fall in love with women, but
    they don't interest me sexually.  I feel like I'm neither fish nor
    fowl, caught in a no woman's land between being straight and being
    Lesbian.  I envy straight men and Lesbians because they can get the
    emotional benefits of loving a woman along with the sexual benefits all
    in one person.

    When I was in college, I fell in love with a woman, and when the
    relationship broke up, I felt totally depressed.  I went to a
    therapist, who suggested that I was a Lesbian.  I was open to the idea. 
    But somehow it just doesn't fit. When I ogle, I ogle men.  When I
    fantasize, I fantasize about men.  When I have erotic dreams, I dream
    about men.  But, when I fall in love, I fall in love with women.

Dear Anon,

You aren't alone.  I have talked with other people who have felt this way.
In fact, for a long time, I felt this way myself.  In *my* case, as it
turns out, I was supressing my sexual yearnings for women.  I am not 
suggesting that that is your case, every person is different. But I know
how difficult it can be. 

I know a number of women who have said similar things.  In fact, there
is even a word for it: homoaffectional.  (How's that for a 50-cent
word?)

I'm not sure what to say to make things better, other than to tell you that
you are not alone.  If you would like to talk about it offline, feel free to
write to me (tle::dbang::carroll.)

peace and good luck,
D! 

    	When I read the note from anon, my immediate reaction was that all
    the gays are going to suggest she might be gay, and all the straights
    will say she is probably straight.  
    	Like D!, I used to feel that way before I came out, as part of
    wanting women but supressing it.  I fell in love (or in crush, really,)
    with women for about 3-4 years before I got lustful about it.  I was
    really well trained to what society expected of me.  I always figure
    it's because I'm from the "South".  (Maryland, south of here anyways.)
    	The first time I ever kissed a woman, it felt so weird and it
    didn't do much for me.  My first bunch of experiences were like that. 
    I wanted the woman in question, but was uncomfortable about doing
    anything about it.  Finally, I found someone that was in about the same
    position, and we explored being physical slowly.  Boy, that worked!
    	I guess I'd suggest exploring it very slowly, and don't be
    surprised if it feels weird at first.  I remember thinking "I'm kissing
    another woman, I'm kissing another woman!"  Plus, women feel totally
    different from men, and at first they felt too squishly for me, like
    they were grossly out of shape.  I experienced that sensation with a
    varsity crew jock. 
    	Be careful to do exploration with someone who understands, and let
    her know where you're coming from.
    	Anyways, that's my advice, based on my experiences, and what worked
    for me.  (Working doesn't mean she decides she's a lesbian, working
    means figuring it out.)  
    
    Rachael

    Re .46: Yes. You are wrong. 
    
    [Um, well, OK, I guess I don't know if you're wrong or not, being only
    _one_ heterosexual woman. But *I've* never felt that way, and none of
    the het women I've talked with about such subjects claimed to have,
    either.]
    
    Or are you thinking of "love" as in "best-friend"? There are certainly
    women whom I love, but it's filial-type love, not romantic.
    
    -b

    re .44, I don't think people can help who they
    find, or don't find, sexually attractive.  I don't mean to make light
    of your feelings, I find them interesting, but I can't help but think
    that there have been times in the past when I wish I could have had sex
    with men without having to worry about falling in love with them.  It
    seems like there would have been a feeling of freedom in it.
    
    There have also been times in the past when I found myself really
    wishing that I *were* a Lesbian.  In the past, I sometimes found myself
    wondering, Why can't I be attracted to women?  But, I just wasn't.  I
    thought that maybe women treated each other better than men sometimes
    treat women.  But, I don't know if that's true anyway.  It's just that
    there have been times in my life when it seemed to me that some men
    treat the women in their lives so badly, that I couldn't help wondering
    if Lesbians treat each other better.
    
    Lorna
     

I think the problem is the term "emotionally attracted to"...  what does
that mean?

I think many, many women feel strong emotional bonds with other women, without
feeling "attracted" to them by my definition of the word.  There have been
times in my life when I have felt an emotional "spark" when I met someone,
regardless of the sex of the person, to whom I was not physically attracted.
I have also been with people to whom I *was* physically attracted, but I
didn't feel that "spark".  That spark is what I call emotional attraction -
it was what makes my heart go flutter-flutter, what makes me seek out time
with someone more than I would with someone who was "just" a friend.  That
spark can grow into infatuation, or into love, or it can just die quietly.
but if it isn't there, no Relationship, beyond a surface sexual one, is
possible, even though I may become great friends with hir.

In fact, one of my big problems in my life has been that I consistently
sparked (or "clicked" as I like to call it) with people I wasn't physically
attracted to.  I think both aspects (the emotional "click" and the physical
attraction) have to be present for a healthy Relationship.

I can very well sympathize with always clicking with women but only feeling
physically attracted to men.  Unfortunately, i can't suggest a solution. :-(
Except, perhaps, to *try* exploring women, and seeing if perhaps you can
learn to be physically attracted to them?  Sounds weird, but I believe that
physical attraction is, for the most part, a result of societal conditioning.
We are taught to be attracted to a particular type of person - everyone 
varies, of course, but the all vary from the central poit of what society
encourages.  So perhaps you just haven't *learned* to be physically attracted
to women?

[I realize that this is going to sound grossly offensive, like "Everyone
could be gay if they wanted to be" but that isn't what I mean. I think physical
attraction is societally taught, but emotional attraction isn't.  If you
aren't emotionally attracted to one sex or the other, you are outta luck - I
think that is innate, not something you can learn or unlearn.]

D!

   <<< Note 700.49 by WRKSYS::STHILAIRE "when I get you on my wavelength" >>>

> ...I thought that maybe women treated each other better than men sometimes
> treat women.  But, I don't know if that's true anyway.  It's just that
> there have been times in my life when it seemed to me that some men
> treat the women in their lives so badly, that I couldn't help wondering
> if Lesbians treat each other better.
    
  A story on NPR a while ago suggested that this is not the (general)
  case.  The rate of domestic violence among lesbian couples was very
  similar to the rate of domestic violence among heterosexual couples.
  The reporting rate among lesbian couples was substantially lower,
  though.

                                   Atlant

    re .51, I've also found it a big problem in my life that I've often
    felt that "emotional click" you mention with people I'm not physically
    attracted to.  It can result in some very frustrating feelings and
    situations!  Situations where you know the other person is thinking, "If
    you like me so much why don't you want to have sex with me?"  But, if
    you blurt out the truth, which would probably be, "Well, you're a *lot*
    of fun to talk to and go places with, but you're just kinda creepy
    looking, ya know?" - then you'd hurt their feelings and lose a friend. 
    (This has only happened with men in my case, because I've always been
    straight and no women have ever expected me to have sex with them
    anyway.)
    
    Lorna
    

~robin:

  Unfortunately, I remember very little of the details of the story
  except that I heard it one evening sitting in the parking lot of
  the Nashua Mall before Christmas.  (Damn my perverse memory!)

  I believe the data on the incidence rate was derived by some sort
  of polling (or focus groups or something similar).  The reporting
  rate data, on the other hand, came from roll-ups of the usual po-
  lice blotters.  Thus the possibility of a difference.

  I don't remember if any data was presented on domestic violence rates
  in gay male relationships but the story was substantially lesbian-
  centered.

                                   Atlant

    re.51 'if you're not emotionally attracted to one [sex/gender] or the
          other, you're out of luck'
    
    well, poop! does this mean I have to choose? [_major_ pouting going on
    here ... ]
    
    I have some incredibly strong emotional attachments to both men and
    women.  The kind that make me want to look in their eyes and touch
    their hands and just plain sit next to them -- the kind where my heart
    beats just a bit faster when I hear their voices or see them across a
    crowded room.
    
    if this is 'outta luck', I'll take it!
    
      Annie

    re .56, I thought .51 meant that if someone isn't emotionally attracted
    to *either* men or women then they were out of luck.
    
    If you're emotionally attracted to *both* men and women then I would
    think you would be *in* luck, because you have more to pick from.
    (I think I'm emotionally attracted to both men and women, too.)
    
    Lorna
    

> ...I thought that maybe women treated each other better than men sometimes
> treat women.  
<    
<  A story on NPR a while ago suggested that this is not the (general)
<  case.  The rate of domestic violence among lesbian couples was very

I'm surprised at Atlant's response, and the fact that so many others let it
go.  Domestic violence is not the only measure of how people are treated.  This
is an extreme case of mistreatment, but there are other ways to mistreat
someone. 

I think that lesbians *tend* to be more caring toward their partners, on the
average, than heterosexual men tend to be toward *their* partners.  I don't 
see lesbians putting down (insulting) their partners as much.  I see more
equality in the relationships.  I see more *attempts* at equality, as well,
in relationships between women.

      Carol

Carol:

  Hence the parenthesized word "(general)".  In the specific instance
  of domestic violence, lesbian relationships may be just as good/just
  as bad as straight relationships.

                                   Atlant

    
    I'm emotionally, spiritually, physically, and psychologically
    attracted to women, however that does not mean I'm all things
    to all women.  (Don't I wish.)  I currently am in a situation 
    where she wants to be intimate and I don't.  The click people 
    have mentioned is unpredictable and uncontrollable and painful
    when it's not mutual, even within your own community.
    
    (I'm also in a situation where we both want to be intimate and
    that's indescribable.)
    
    As I veer deeper into lesbianism and the lesbian community, I
    discover new facets of myself.  It's completely new territory.
    It's new psyches and new rules and new rituals.  If you want to
    know how to do a heterosexual relationship, you need only to go
    to your nearest theatre and see an example.  Turn on the TV and
    see 15 different examples.  Mindless and simplistic, true, but
    examples nonetheless.  As lesbians and bisexual women, our role
    models aren't well documented and not overly visible.  Until she
    dies, and then suddenly her 'lifestyle' becomes public.  But it
    seems while famous lesbians are alive, they too often choose to 
    remain in the closet.  So we seek out our own kind.  In our own 
    community, our own bars, our own areas of the city.
    
    And quite frankly, I don't yet know how to do it.  (Not *that*, 
    that I *do* know.)  Every day is a new experience.  Every lesbian 
    I meet teaches me something valuable.  The discoveries are vibrant
    and somehow more vital than anything I've ever experienced.  But
    this lifestyle, as it's called, is pioneer territory.  We're all
    traveling across basically unchartered land.  And no matter how
    many books you read or experiences of others you absorb, there's
    no substitute for your own emergence.
    
    Last night I was at a women's bar, amidst by 100 dancing, smiling, 
    gorgeous women.  When you look into someone's eyes, she looks back.
    There's a recognized bond.  I am so proud to be part of it, to be 
    able to experience this connection.  As one of the male bartenders 
    brushed passed me he exclaimed, "I'm so glad I'm gay."  I feel the 
    same way!  And I wouldn't trade my orientation for anything in the 
    world.
    
    Carla
    

I heard the same NPR report. Quite unfortunately, I heard it on the radio
in the car with my father, mere hours after I just came out to him - just
what he wanted to hear.

Anyway, it was a story *about* Lesbian abuse...so they didn't make any mention
of gay men.  I do wish they had made the comparison, though, as they did
the to heterosexual population.

Anyway, in my oh-so-brief experience with Lesbians, it seems to me that
Lesbians relationships are no more or less likely to be healthy or 
disfunctional that heterosexual relationships.  Some are happy, egalitarian,
etc, etc, others are ugly co-dependent things, still others are abusive.
I think the problems are different, but there are just as likely to be
problems.  (I think Lesbians are more likely to loose their identity to
the relationship than heterosexual couples, and then get frustrated at
not having their own life - the old "Lesbian fusion" thing again.)

One of the reasons I think Lesbian domestic violence gets so little 
visibility is that only Lesbians know about it, and they are wary about
bringing something so negative up.  Lesbians get so damn *little* airtime,
that a lot of people (myself included) would hesitate to start shouting
out our negative aspects to the world.  yeah, they are there.  But Lesbians
and gays have such a negative image in the eyes of society that people are
always ready to leap on each little thing and say "See, Martha, I told you
those Lesbians just want to be like men - they beat their wives, too."

My father had an interesting point which I found very disturbing but
had trouble refuting.  If 10% of straight relationships involve the woman
being beaten, and 10% of Lesbian relationships involved women being beaten,
that means that basically 10% of all women are being beaten.  But in
straight relationships, almost *no* women are doing the beating, whereas
in Lesbian relationships 10% of women are doing beating.  He said that this
seems to point out that abusive relationships are dictated by the abusee -
that there are 10% of people who are abused, and there will be abusers to
match them. This obviously went against the whole "don't blame the victim
thing", and I pointed out that the data could equally well be explained by
saying that in straight relationships there are probably 10% of women who
are *potential* beaters, but they never realize their potential because of
the physical difference in sizes between men and women.  This argument seems
weak to me, though...

D!

D!:

  I'm glad you remembered 10% also -- I thought I did but didn't
  want to quote it because I wasn't sure.  Anyway, when I discussed
  the story with someone, the conclusion we reached was that among
  all people, there is a 10% chance that the dominant person in
  the relationship maintains that status by the use of force.

  Given that, and the typical stereotyping of roles in many
  heterosexual relationships, the "10% men-on-women violence"
  and "10% women-on-women" violence statistics make sense.

                                   Atlant

    .60
    
    Carla, you've touched upon an aspect of lesbian relationships that I am
    envious of -- in Zen proportions.
    
    This whole role model thing.
    
    Yeah, just go to any movie or watch and TV or read just about any dumb
    book and there it all is -- men and women and how they're _supposed_ to
    related.  Some days it's like living in an Iron Maiden.
    
    what I wouldn't _give_ to not have all the inane, mindless questions
    from sensitive, caring and well-meaning individuals who are honestly
    concerned because I don't conform to type.
    
    "no kids? are you having marital or fertility troubles?"
       no
    
    "I never seen you're husband. are you _sure_ everything is OK between
    you?"
      yes, I am ... most days anyway
    
    "no diamond? couldn't your fiance _afford_ one?"
      I didn't want one, the black star is special to _us_.
      [and so few people think this is the truth ... _obviously_ I'm making
      the best of a real "dud" ....]
    
    Mind you, I live my life the way I want to [mostly] and we define our
    relationship on our own terms [as is our right].  It's just _so_
    tedious dealing with the noise ... I wish that ...
    
    Yes, it must be exciting to be a part of a 'leading edge' rather than
    being a 'snag in the flow'
    
    I do envy you that!
    
      Annie
    
    

    The 'click' isn't consistent even in a close, loving, long-term
    relationship.  There are times one or the other of you just
    doesn't feel sexual.  
    
    And I'm not sure that any of those feelings of emotional
    attachment, lust, or anything else are, by themselves, what make
    you a lesbian or a bisexual or a heterosexual. 
    
    There's a woman I admire very much for her courage, integrity, and
    honesty.  She's witty, charming, intelligent, and supportive.  I
    love her deeply.  When I visit her, I start feeling kind of
    light-headed in the middle.  All right, yes, I feel strongly
    sexually attracted to her.  If she ever started to kiss me, you
    can bet I'd kiss her right back.  
    
    But I don't feel any less heterosexual.  I respond to men, I'm
    sometimes guilty of eying crotches speculatively at inappropriate
    moments, and I still lust after the Nelson twins, and my spouse. 
    I just have a crush on a person who happens to be a woman.
    
    --bonnie

>    The 'click' isn't consistent even in a close, loving, long-term
>    relationship.  There are times one or the other of you just
>    doesn't feel sexual. 

Uh...the "click", at least as I experience it, has nothing to do with
sex.  In fact, that was my whole point, was that the sex thing was
something *different*. The click is an emotional thing.  Perhaps "click"
isn;t the best word, since it isn't instantaneous and it is (more or 
less) constant - it is what makes you say "I'm in love with so-and-so"
rather than "so and so is a good friend."

 
>     But I don't feel any less heterosexual.  I respond to men, I'm
>    sometimes guilty of eying crotches speculatively at inappropriate
>    moments, and I still lust after the Nelson twins, and my spouse. 
>    I just have a crush on a person who happens to be a woman.

I know what you mean here, Bonnie, I just want to point out that eyeing
crotches and lusting after members of the opposite sex does not make
you *heterosexual*...you (generic) could be bisexual, after all.  

D! who still occasionally lusts after men
 

    
    Bonnie,
    
    Likewise, I have fantasies about grabbing the video store boy 
    with the long black ponytail and kissing him until he dies and
    it doesn't negate or dimish the fact that I'm a (progressively 
    not so bisexual) dyke, I love women, and I may never be with a 
    man again.
    
    Unless Billy Idol proposes.
    
    It's what is deep in your heart, where you hold no secrets from
    yourself, where you know.
    
    Carla
    

RE: .44 (anon)

>>>    I'm writing this because I'd like to know if there are other women who
>>>    have feelings similar to mine.  There's been some recent discussion of
>>>    Lesbians, bisexuals, and heterosexuals.  I honestly feel like I don't
>>>    fit in to any of these categories, and it makes me feel very much alone
>>>    since I'm afraid to discuss it openly.

I think there are people who don't fit into any of those labels. I believe 
there's a scale called the Kinsey scale with homosexuality on one side and 
heterosexuality on the other side and bisexuality in the middle. People 
can be at different points on the scale.  I call myself a lesbian but I 
still might think there's something attractive about a man. But I don't 
have any desire to be in a relationship sexually/emotionally with a man. So 
maybe I'm kind of between homosexuality and bisexuality :-) I remember 
having lunch one time with a group of people and there was a guy there 
who had really attractive eyes and I thought to myself "wow,he's got 
incredible eyes". But I wasn't interested in dating him or getting into a 
relationship with him. 


>>> I do fall in love with women, but they don't interest me sexually. 

In my denial days before I started coming out, I used to develop crushes on
women. I don't think I've ever had a crush on a man. I would be interested
in spending time with her, talking to her and caring for her. However in my
fantasies, I couldn't even think about myself making love with her. I would
think about a usually faceless man and her and I'd be in the role of the
faceless man. I know that sounds kind of weird but that's what was going on
in my head. I think I was suppressing my real feelings. I'm not saying
that this is what's happening with you anon but this is how I found myself.

It always felt wonderful being around women I had crushes on. But it always
lead to a big disappointment because the women I had crushes on before I
started coming out were all heterosexual :-( 

When I first starting coming out I was too afraid to go to any coming out
groups so I put an ad in the Boston Phoenix as a way to meet other gay
women. It was safer for me to meet someone one-on-one rather than in a
group. I meet a few women but it never lead to anything, not even
friendships. Finally I got the courage to go to the Cambridge Women's
Center on Pleasant ST. in Cambridge near Central Sq. It's not just a place
for lesbians, it's a place for all women and it's a great resource place.
From there I found out about other lesbian things. 

Then I joined this group called WOBBLES (West of Boston Lesbians) and at
the first meeting I went to I knew I was finally *home* if you will.
Listening to the other coming out stories of the women there I knew I was
in the right place :-). That's when I really started to come out to myself.
and I meet a lesbian through this group that I developed a crush on.
Unfortunately the feelings weren't reciprocated but at least I was more on
track than with my previous crushes. I also meet my first woman lover 
through this group.

After I joined this group and started meeting other lesbians and hearing 
their stories, my fantasies started to change and I began to fantasize 
about myself making love to other women.  The first couple of times I made 
love with a woman it was kind of weird and awkward like Rachael was saying 
a few notes back. But eventually I relaxed and then it was wonderful!


Some suggestions about what to do...

Do you know anyone who is homosexual or bisexual? If so maybe you can talk to
them about it and let them tell you their story. Or maybe you can just hang out
with them for a while and get to know them.  A good friend of mine right now
has a good friend who's doing just that. And she's involved in a long-distance
relationship with a man! But she's exploring her own sexuality and hanging out
at lesbian bars with her lesbian friend.  She's also told her boyfriend that
she's doing this.  I respect her being very open about it and comfortable with
it that early in the game.  It took me many years to get to that point. 

Try going to the Cambridge Women's Center and checking out all the books 
and newspapers they have. You can also maybe talk to some of the women 
there. They're usually really helpful and a lot of them are lesbian and 
bisexual. I've heard the bisexual women's rap group there is very good 
although I've never been to it. Contact me off-line (VINO::LANGELO) if you 
want to find out about some other coming out groups.

Rent out some lesbian movies like "Desert Hearts" or "Entres Nous"! They're 
great movies (oh, BTW they aren't porn movies ;-)). GLadday bookstore in 
Copley Sq. has a bunch of gay/les/bi movies so you could try going over there 
and browsing around.

If you do decide to get sexual with a women just remember that lesbians can
get AIDS too. A lot of lesbians I know think that because they call
themselves a lesbian and only have sex with other lesbians that they can't
get AIDS. I don't believe this for a minute. *Some* lesbians like *some* 
men will tell you anything for sex.


Peace to you! You're probably not as alone as you think :-)

Laurie

    re: .65
    
    Ah, now I see what you mean, D!.  Sorry I misunderstood that the
    first time around.  People often use "click" to refer to the
    chemistry of attraction and I read too quickly. 
    
    I think even that strong emotional attachment comes and goes in a
    very long-term relationship.  True, it never goes away, but there
    are times when it's very strong and times when each of you is
    going your own way in parallel.  
    
    But you're right, there is something down under everything else
    that stays there through thick and thin, through fights and
    romance and passion.  Maybe it is soul-mates.  I dunno. 
    
    Obviously if my lusting after a woman doesn't make me lesbian, the
    reverse would be true and lusting after men wouldn't make a
    lesbian heterosexual. I'd be willing to concede that it might make
    both of us bisexual by definition, but I don't think there is any
    behavioral evidence that anyone can offer that proves one's sexual
    orientation.  Only the person who's feeling it knows what it feels
    like.  
    
    --bonnie

    RE: .44 (anon)
    
    I hope this sounds supportive, I appreciate your sharing your feelings
    here.  
    
    Like most of the people in the world you either know what you are and
    your wants or you don't.  If you don't then exploration is a means to
    see what's in your heart.  The real issue might be giving yourself the
    permission to look into your soul and do the searching.  The earlier
    suggestion of talking to others helps.  I suggest this only because
    it was the path I had to take to find the freedom to explore and 
    understand my internal feelings.  It comes with pain and succces but,
    along the way you'll likely meet some of the most interesting people.
    I feel just your writing the note already started that work.
    
    Huggs and good luck,
    Allison
    

    i can certainly relate to the previous notes about wanting to be more
    intimate with somebody who doesn't, being in that position myself. this
    is likely to result in a friendship where we enjoy wigglies being
    together, and that's fine with me.
                                     
    we need words to describe our relationships and lives - see the entry
    under `needed words' in the feminist dictionary. since the language we
    use is based on patriarchal standards, we need new language to describe
    the daily reality we experience. one long discussion last weekend (10
    wimmin in a ski cabin in oregon! with a hot tub!) was about this...
    
    ...laura

    RE: 700.67
    
    In my response to anonymous about where to go to get info/help I
    mentioned several places in the Boston area. Well, if you're not in the
    Boston area...
    
    Look in your phonebook under gay or lesbian and see if you can find a 
    help line. The folks there will be able to tell you places in the area
    where you live.
    
    If you can't find anything in the phonebook go to the library and look
    at some books under the title of gay,lesbian,bisexual or homosexuality.
    There might be some guides there that mention places to go around where
    you live.
    
    I think your best bet though is to talk to someone who you know is
    gay/lesbian/bisexual if you know of such a person.
    
    Good luck!
    Laurie

    Reading in here about lesbians who are coupled and have been so for
    some time has been a real help for me. I don't know very many lesbian
    couples that have been together for a long time or maybe I just don't
    hear about them.
    
    I find that whenever I start to get involved with a woman somewhere in
    the back of my head I hear this voice that says "this isn't going to
    last more than a couple of years". Maybe this is just my own internal
    homophobia working against me. None of my relationships with women have
    lasted beyond six months. I really would like to find a soul mate that
    I can spend the rest of my life with. It scares me to think that these
    voices inside me may prevent me from doing this.
    
    There's a part of me that thinks being a lesbian is really neat because
    it's so different from mainstream society. Here's something interesting
    from the introduction of a book called "Lesbian Lists" by Dell
    Richards (typed here without permission from the author):
    
    "For me, becoming a lesbian was a conscious political decision, the
    logical extension of feminism.  Perhaps it was silly but I took the
    slogan "Faminism is the theory; lesbianism the practice" to heart and
    became a lesbian on the heels of becoming a feminist. The questions of
    why I became gay is central to my answer.
    
    Virginia Woolf said that women reflect men twice their natural size.
    What she didn't do was finish the sentance: Men reflect women half
    their natural size.  When I became a feminist, I began to see how
    distorted the heterosexual mirror was. I decided to see what I would be
    like in a mirror that reflected me at my natural size.  The only way I
    could think to do that was by ridding my life of men-or at least
    ridding my personal life of heterosexual men.
    
    While the transition was harder than I expected, the experiment was a
    great success.  Although society sets up a myriad of unneccessary
    barriers that lesbians constantly come up against, being a lesbian has
    changed my sense of self in ways I never imagined possible.  I honestly
    believe I see myself today in a much more realistic mirror than I did
    with heterosexual eyes. I certainly take myself more seriously and give
    myself more credit as a person and a writer than I used to-and I
    believe that much of this growth has com from having women-and gay
    men-in my life,people who believe in me, wanted to see me succeed, and
    were willing t support me emotionally and professionally in that
    struggle."
    
    It goes on but I'm not going to type the whole thing in here.
    
    The other side of the coin of being on the cutting edge of sexuality is
    that there aren't a lot of well-known lesbian role models or heros. As
    I sit here I'm trying to think of some and all that I can come up with
    is Lucie Blue Tremblay, Kate Clinton, Chris Williamson...But they
    aren't really heros or well-known at least not to the world. They are
    well-known in the lesbian community.
    
    My brain is turning to mush. This happens after working with assembly
    code all day. And, oh no, my cat just swallowed a gum wrapper *whole*.
    Horrors! Another cat-owner-emergency has arisen.
    
    Peace to all,
    Laurie
    
    

    Laurie,
    
    Maybe this sounds silly but: if when you think of relationships you
    only think of the euphoria of mush-love and comfort and warmth and
    affection, then it may NOT last. Most of the straight marriages I know
    that last are built on friendship. If the old "lesbian brings a U-Haul
    on the second date" jokes are true, then there may be a tendency to
    fall into the same traps as straight people, i.e. forgetting to forge
    the friendship, because you're blinded by "love".
    
    It may be worse for lesbians if, like me, you get caught up in the idea
    that finding someone is going to be difficult, that there aren't a lot
    of people out there to begin with, and finding someone with your
    orientation who is additionally compatible to your tastes, interests
    and values may be impossible. I struggle with those feelings a lot, and
    it makes me tend to latch to the first black male I see who comes
    anywhere near matching my needs. And things last 6 months, or 2-3
    years, and then crumble, painfully.
    
    I'm not pretending that the search for a soul-mate is going to be easy,
    and perhaps the wisest thing to do is to recognize that it isn't and
    accept that she may not be there and that's OKAY! Its not a nice
    feeling at first, but it may protect you from latching on to a woman
    who isn't really a soul-mate, just because both of you are longing
    for a relationship, and haven't thought out what you will and won't
    compromise.
    
    At any rate, those are some of the things I'm facing. It helps me keep
    *my* U-Haul parked safely in the garage. Whether or not lesbian
    marriages last longer or more frequently than straight marriages is not
    something I want to present, but please keep in mind that straight
    people are struggling tremendously to make marriages work; I think its
    going to be a struggle for ANY two people. 
    
    But I still hope you find someone!  :-)
    
    In sisterhood,
    
    Lauren

    re .72, .73, my last two relationships (which were with men as all my
    relationships have been) each lasted 2 1/2 yrs.!  It's not a trend that
    I want to have continue!  But, sometimes I've found myself wondering if
    it's the new norm for length of relationships these days.
    
    I now find the fact that I was once married for 12 1/2 yrs. to be
    pretty amazing, especially that I was actually *happy* for the first 8
    yrs.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

    
    On last November's womyn's cruise, there was a lesbian couple 
    who'd been together 45 years, since they were each 15.  Every
    time I meet a lesbian couple, it seems they've been together
    5 years, or 8 years, or some lengthy amount of time.  And I'm
    always simultaneously awed and bewildered.
    
    Something different in my interactions with women is that I'm 
    friends with every female lover I've had.  We maintain contact 
    and the friendships are enriched by our past physical intimacy.
    With men, I've had completely the opposite experience.
    
    Carla
    

    My own experience has been that my marriage has worked because Jean and
    I are friends.  We have built a strong foundation to get through all
    the tough times and believe me there have been some.  I also believe
    that yes we are together but we also try real hard to maintain our own
    identities.   My creativity tends to drive everyone crazy at my house
    but it's who I am.  Jean likes to putter with things.. It drives me
    crazy but that's why I love her....  
    
    Romance is a great part of a relationship but it cannot be everthing.
    Have patience and it will just happen to you...
    
    love 
    
    denise

    
Been a few weeks since I've gotten back here but things have been busy.

    RE: .73 (Lauren)
    
>>> If the old "lesbian brings a U-Haul on the second date" jokes are true,
>>> then there may be a tendency to fall into the same traps as straight
>>> people, i.e. forgetting to forge the friendship, because you're blinded by
>>> "love". 

I've seen a lot of lesbians fall into the u-haul syndrome. I haven't seen
as many hetereosexual couples fall into this same pattern. I think it has
to do with wanting to have the instant comfort of another to help get
through dealing with a homophobic society. It feels safer to have someone 
else around when things get scary.

>>> It may be worse for lesbians if, like me, you get caught up in the idea
>>> that finding someone is going to be difficult, that there aren't a lot
>>> of people out there to begin with, and finding someone with your
>>> orientation who is additionally compatible to your tastes, interests
>>> and values may be impossible. 

I tend to think I'll only have the chance of meeting someone when I'm at a
g/b/l event or in a g/b/l setting. When I go to work in the morning I never
really think I'm going to meet a possible mate at the site where I work
(which isn't to say there aren't any around it's just that they might not
be visible). As I mentioned in other notes here I usually only ask out a
woman I know is bisexual or a lesbian. The discussions here have made me
think about this more and question why I don't just ask someone out if I
like them and not worry about it. I took a big step a few weeks ago and
asked out a woman whose sexual orientation  I really didn't know.  But I
don't think she knows either :-) which is cool with me. She has a boyfriend
but has been kind of hanging around at some b/g/l clubs. At least I knew
she was pro-gay so I didn't have to worry that she'd freak out when I asked
her. 

>>> I struggle with those feelings a lot, and it makes me tend to latch to the
>>> first black male I see who comes anywhere near matching my needs. And
>>> things last 6 months, or 2-3 years, and then crumble, painfully. 

I find myself doing the exact opposite. That is, I'll go out with a woman
once or twice and then think "ah, this will never last so don't get too
close" and then I'll push away and move onto someone else. I'm sitting here
counting how many women I've done this with and it scares me 
(alright,alright no comments from the peanut gallery ;-)).

>>> I'm not pretending that the search for a soul-mate is going to be easy,
>>> and perhaps the wisest thing to do is to recognize that it isn't and
>>> accept that she may not be there and that's OKAY! Its not a nice
>>> feeling at first, but it may protect you from latching on to a woman
>>> who isn't really a soul-mate, just because both of you are longing
>>> for a relationship, and haven't thought out what you will and won't
>>> compromise.
    
Good advice. Looking back now I can see that the first relationship I got
into with a woman occurred because I really wanted to be in a
"relationship" with someone. I was friends with her,cared deeply about her 
and I did lust after her but that was all there was to it. Took me a while
to figure out that I wasn't "in love" with her. 

>>>    But I still hope you find someone!  :-)

Thanks, I hope you do too!!

RE: .75 (Carla)
    
>>> On last November's womyn's cruise, there was a lesbian couple 
>>> who'd been together 45 years, since they were each 15.  

This blows my mind away Carla!!!

RE: .76 (Denise)

>>> My creativity tends to drive everyone crazy at my house but it's who I am.  

Hey, I've seen this creativity at work Denise :-) Pretty amazing stuff :-)

>>> Romance is a great part of a relationship but it cannot be everthing.
>>> Have patience and it will just happen to you...
    
It's when you're not looking for something that you find it :-) So I guess 
I won't look for love and I'll just have fun in the meantime (Ummm
M.T.B.L. = Mean Time Between Love...oh no another techno weenie word).

Laurie

	re: .700 (Laurie)

	> I took a big step a few weeks ago and asked out a woman 
	> whose sexual orientation  I really didn't know.

	This *is* a big step.  Good for you, Laurie!

	I, too, tend to shutdown when I'm not in g/l/b space.  My
	gaydar is in action, yes, but unfortunately I tend to lump
	most women I meet into the heterosexual category.  <sniff>

	So when a woman in a non-g/l/b place flirts with me, I'm
	caught completely off guard.  There's a woman who works at
	the video store I frequent (where I'm also lusting after a
	young male), and she made some suggestive comments while I
	was renting "The Hunger", which is a well-known film in the
	lesbian community.  My jaw nearly dropped to the floor.  I
	was so unprepared.  Cool stuff.  I must go back soon.

	Carla

    
    I'm a happily married lesbian (5 year anniversary in 2 months).  I have
    always known, I'm one of those extreme Kinsey (sp.?) report cases.  I
    also believe that long lasting relationships begin/continue with a strong
    friendship and a sense of humor.  Personally I have a pet pieve with
    the word "lifestyle".  I don't have a "lifestyle", I have a life....
    I have a family, my sweetie Ellen, my son Joe, Doreen (My son's
    biological mother, a lesbian), my extended community of family and friends,
    and when they choose my Mom, Dad, and siblings.
    
    Heidi  8-)