Conference turris::womannotes-v3

right from the start, I have a small problem with both the test and the
definition.

I do not believe that it is necessary to have women in a body of artistic
work to pass the 'no-misogyny' test.

I have seen movies and plays with either no female characters, or
no significant ones, where nothing that could be remotely construed as misogyny
occurred.  Women were alluded to or discussed without being trivialised, they
just weren't central to the story.

And I have the the reverse, where men were scarce or absent and misandry
wasn't  stated ot implied.

I'm not sure what you were hoping to discuss.  Are you looking for examples
of misogyny in film?  for examples that fit your profile?

  Annie

    
    sorry for the confusion. i did not mean to suggest a 'test' per se.
    really just a springboard, a possible first way of thinking about the
    question.
    
    i certainly agree that it is not 'necessary to have women in a body of
    artistic work to pass the 'no-misogyny' test'.
    
    on the other hand, i would suggest that in the overwhelming majority
    of films, wherein the females characters are present at all, they
    are potrayed negatively.
    

    for example the last james bond film.  
    
    the opening credits show the shadow of a nude woman in silhouette,
    dancing.  the dance is mostly soft and flowing, but includes a spine
    contraction (ie. head up, arms flung out, spine curved backwards).  it
    is on a repeating loop so she dances across the screen from left to
    right, over and over.
    
    there is also a handgun, about the same size as the woman, on the left
    side of the screen, pointed at the woman but not tracking with her as
    she moves.  it is being shot.  the shots coincide with the woman's
    spine contractions; it looks like this woman is being repetitively shot
    by a gigantic gun.
    
    when i go to any action film, i put my glass-chewing-feminist filters
    up high so that i'm only offended by the very worst stuff, but i was
    barely able to stomach the opening credits of that movie.
    
    lee t

    RE-.3
    
    But that description could apply to numerous Bond opening themes.
    It's almost part of what a person expects to see when one goes to
    a Bond flick. I don't know whether or not it perpetuates a negative
    image of women in film, though...all I see is a very stylized opening
    to a film, whether the silhouette had been male or female. (The
    "I-Spy" and "It Takes A Thief" used similar images only male)
    
    I do agree with the basenote, however, as there is a great abscence
    of "quality" positive roles in both theatre and film of and for
    women. So, actresses who need the work *will* play the only roles
    which are made available to them for the sake of their artistic
    survival...and they will continue to hope for better (more positive)
    roles in the future. The same with other minority groups who have
    been struggling for more positive portrayals in the media for decades
    now. 
    
    An example, "Hill Street Blues", now is in reruns. I cannot believe the
    number of incredibly good performers, now famous, I have seen in small 
    "bit" roles on the show. And, the roles were very "negative" in
    nature. Outside of the central characters of the show, women were 
    generally prostitues or sluts, blacks were the drug dealers, Hispanics 
    were the punks in gangs, and even the whites were portrayed as the 
    back-stabbers-always-on-the-take-bureaucrats. But all the actors
    associated with the show are just that...actors. They need the work,
    and they cannot usually dictate how a role, however negative or
    even stereotypical in nature that role may be, will be. 
    
    Oh well, let's hope for better days ahead, I guess. I wish the media
    would just give a little more credit for intelligence to its audience,
    though. 

    Joe,
    
    The 'test' that Justine told you about is from a marvelous 'cartoon'
    strip that my son brought home to me from college called 'dykes to
    watch out for'.
    
    I no longer have my copy of the article that reviewed the strip,
    tho I recall getting a 'click' from each example of the artist's
    work represented in the article..
    
    If you wish I'll enter the text of that particular cartoon as well
    as I can remember (and Justine, if as I suspect, the 'two women
    talking to each other' predated the cartoon, my appologies)
    
    Bonnie

    
    I saw the movie Monsieur Hire not long ago and I can remember being
    aghast at the following: at the begining of the movie a young woman 
    is discovered dead.  Monsieur Hire is being asked questions about
    the girl, and in the course of this questioning, the investigating 
    officer says someting like "What a pity!  Now that she is dead, no
    young man will get to enjoy her."  I'm not sure this adds anything 
    to this note but my companion at the movie seemed perplexed by my 
    reaction to this particular scene.
    
    CQ 

    
    re:.5
    thanks, bonnie! i suspected that there was a more complicated
    history than my poor brain could remember.
    

    example - the movie "Cop", which aired on cable a few months
    back. The plot revolves around a detective obsessed with
    catching a serial killer. All the women were portrayed as
    victims, heartless, or brainless. 

    
    "Gone With the Wind" - the rape scene (or more accurately the carrying-
    her-off-kicking-and-protesting-to-be-raped scence), followed by the 
    morning after scene that shows her in bed, coyly smiling: that says she 
    enjoyed it, she loved it.
    
    Barf,
    
    Dorian

    Here are a couple of examples of misogyny in films:
    
    
    A trailer for a video film I saw recently had, as one of it's selling
    points the fact that it had plenty of violence. The snippet of film
    they showed was of the beginning of a gang-rape. Just enough to whet
    the appetite.
    
    A film I had to stop watching to go and vomit - "The Heart of Midnight"
    which has a prolonged scene of two men raping a woman, abusing every
    orifice.
    
    A British file titled something like "The Lair of the White Dragon" had
    gratuitous scenes of nuns being raped by soldiers. It had no relevance
    to the plot at all. Perhaps it was for titillation. 
    
    It seems that it is
    generally acceptable to use scenes of violence against women, their
    degradation and humiliation to entertain. This inures society to the
    awful prevelence of violence against women and makes the reality easy
    to trivialise so we do not feel the need to worry about it.
    
     A very sad state of affairs
    
    Helen.
    affairs.

    
    .10 gang rapes, soldiers raping nuns -
    
    Oh, but think what we're contributing to the economy by being portrayed
    thus! And where would organized crime be without our $10 billion/yr.
    porn industry?
    
    Hey, we're just doing our bit here girls, ;-}
    
    D.

    Any "Vietnam War" movie; but especially, "Full Metal Jacket."
    
    From the first "you are all ladies" told to the recruits by
    the typically wretched sergeant, to the last death scene in
    which the "hero has to kill" the woman VC, this movie is pure
    hatred of women.  
    
    And before someone jumps in and says, 'yes that's what the service
    is like" that is, denigrating women to make men ready for war,
    just what is the message not only these movies give, but our
    culture as well?
    
    Kill the enemy; rape the woman.  It's all over the movies; use
    the rifle against the VC, the gun against the woman; all based
    on hatred.
    
    Barf.
    Maia
    
    

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                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 58.280                        The Rathole                        280 of 283
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    .262
    
    "This is my rifle
    This is my gun
    One is for killing
    One is for fun"

I still find myself making a distiction between reflecting an attitude and
glorifying/perpetuating it.

To portray misogyny in the armed forces or in the context of war can shine a
light on abuse and hatred.  I will not comment upon 'Full Metal Jacket' as
I did not see it.  I have seen other Vietnam War movies that had some pretty
gruesome violence against women and children, and I did not find them all
to be misogynistic -- some yes. But while some titillated with violence, others
seemed to be more evocative of moral outrage.

By the same token 'Clan of the Cave Bear' [book and movie] depicts a rather 
gruesome situation for women -- not allowed to touch weapons, at the command
of any and every man for any purpose, punished brutally without a raised
eyebrow for any infraction.  Yet, I rather doubt that Jean Auel was reflecting
internalised misogyny in her writing; but instead reflecting a society based
[loosely] upon her studies in anthropology.  The major character proved that
she didn't need a male protector [even though she wanted a mate].  This body
of work depicted a contempt for women without endorsing it, in fact it put
paid to many of the reasons for belittlement and contempt by the actions and
accomplishments of it's central character.

Then, I saw 'Bus Stop' over the week-end.  A woman gets abducted by an 
overzealous barely-ex-virgin determined to marry her.  While everyone is
telling the young man that she _really_ does have the right to say 'yes' or 
'no' they are also telling her that he seems like an awfully nice guy and she
could do a whole lot worse.  Of course, they end up boarding the bus for 
Montana together.  Same old thing:  he looks, he likes, he overpowers, she
resists but ultimately acquiesces, they live happily ever after.  Now mind you,
I enjoyed this play; but certain parts of it didn't go down well.

So I suppose, my question still stands.  Are depictions of misogyny to be
labelled misogynistic? [I don't always concur]

  Annie

    
    re:.14
    no doubt that mere depiction is not the same as endorsement. in fact,
    a big chunk of the time, depiction is used to condemn in art. both
    aspects are worth discussing. 'tie me up, tie me down' is certainly
    misogynistic on the surface, but raises serious questions about abuse
    and exploitation. 'indiana jones and the lost crusade' or 'presumed
    innocent' have nothing to do with these issues, yet are grimly anti-
    woman.
    

    
    
    since 'presumed innocent' was what inspired me to enter this topic,
    i answer with a few 'thought questions':
    
    are there any positive female characters?
    are there any positive male characters?
    are there any positive male characters that act significantly different
    from negative female characters?
    at any point in the film do we have sympathy for/with a female
    character?
    at any point in the film do we not have sympathy for/with a male
    character?
    
    

    re: .10
    
>    A British file titled something like "The Lair of the White Dragon" had
>    gratuitous scenes of nuns being raped by soldiers. It had no relevance
>    to the plot at all. Perhaps it was for titillation.
    
    The film was "Lair of the White Worm", and the scene did have to do
    with the plot, although I'd agree they didn't need to be as graphic as
    they were.  Their link to the plot, was that a Roman governor in
    England at the time was involved in a pagan religion which worshiped
    the white worm.  The governor ordered his soldiers to destroy the
    convent because the Christians were diametricaly opposed to his
    religion.  I think there was a link between the woman who lived in the
    house with access to the worm and the governor, but I forget.
    
    Tony

    Annie and Joe are quite right about depiction not being the same
    as endorsement. As for Vietnam films, how about CASUALTIES OF WAR?
    Soldiers rape a Vietnamese girl, and the basic plot of the film
    concerns one soldier who condemns the action and has to deal with
    the consequences of his condemnation of it.
    
    --- jerry