Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I was going to suggest Madeleine L'Engle's books; particular
    favorites of mine are her "Time" series (A Wrinkle in Time,
    The Wind at the Door, A Swiftly Turning Planet, Many Waters).
    
    But -- while there are religious elements in the stories
    (Many Waters deals with Noah and the Flood), and while these
    elements are treated respectfully (in my opinion), they may
    be viewed as "offensive" by your step daughter (or her mother).
    
    Take a look at them (and other titles by L'Engle), and make
    your own decision. 
    
    I don't envy your task, however; the restrictions you've listed
    (particularly the last two) severely restrict choices, in my view.  
    They can be interpreted so broadly you might overstep their bounds
    no matter what books you choose.
    
    I admire your respect for their beliefs, and I wish you luck.
    
    					andrew
                                              

    Having looked at 67.*, I now realize I *have* duplicated information
    listed there.  Nevertheless, my recommendation (with caveat) still
    stands.
    
    					andrew

    Try "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boom. Also look for
    a Christian bookstore in your area. They should carry a selection
    of books that would be suitable.
    
    Bonnie

    There are two mildly religious magazines which can be obtained free
    of charge and with no obligation. The have interesting articles
    about current events and they have a special teen magazine.
    
    Both are put out by the Worldwide Church of God.
    
    One is "The World Tomorrow"

    the other is "Teen89"

    
    Let me know if you are interested and I will mail you the app.
    
    Steve
    
    PS: It is hard to find suitable material!

>          <<< Note 716.4 by WOODRO::KEITH "Real men double clutch" >>>
>
>    There are two mildly religious magazines which can be obtained free
>    of charge and with no obligation. The have interesting articles
>    about current events and they have a special teen magazine.
>    
>    Both are put out by the Worldwide Church of God.
>    
>    One is "The World Tomorrow"
>
>    the other is "Teen89"


I would hesitate to send these (no flames intended), as they are published by
a religious organization that is considered "cultish" by most fundamentalist
Christians sects.  From .0's description, the girl and her mother probably
belong to one of them, and might be offended by your sending the above mentioned
material.


/Mike

    Try the 'Little House' books by Laura Ingalls (sp?)

    Little Women, (sorry I've forgotten the author).
    

    Little Women was written by Louisa May Alcott.
    
    In the same vein, I'd encourage the author of .0 to check out
    books published for children in the 19th century. Many of them
    would be appropriate.
    
    Bonnie

    I have a collection of books that I read as a pre-teen, that might be
    suitable for your step-daughter.  They are the "Happy Hollister's", and
    I forget the author.  Its a series of stories about a very wholesome
    family that go on trips and have adventures, and solve a mystery while
    they're at it.   They're really quite good.  I'm saving them for my son
    when he gets a little older.
    
    Becky

    Along with magic, I loved animal stories as a child. Unless talking
    dogs are out - 101 Dalmations was a great story. Bambi is a classic
    as well. The Yearling is a BEAUTIFUL story that shouldn't cause
    any major problems.
    
    Nancy Drew and Bobsey twins might also be safe. I don't think they
    have any morally offensive material. I don't think Nancy kisses
    boys, but I don't quite remember. They do LIKE boys, though. 

On James Fenimore Cooper:
I recently read The Deerslayer (that's where Hawkeye is at his youngest), and
while I enjoyed it immensely, and found he didn't fall into the many potential
traps with the female characters and the attitude of the male characters to the
female characters (which puts it a cut about the norm in this dimension), I
wouldn't recommend it based on a need to read about 'strong female characters'.
The hero is a male, and can't bring himself to love the most interesting female
because she has a reputation, and likes pretty clothes. Her sister is pure and
other-worldly, and escapes harm via her innocence. Indian women gain glory by
being associated with strong braves.

The above _over_denigrates_ the picture drawn of women. Many of the details are
much richer (the sisters are capable of living alone in the forest, the indian
maiden is sharp enough to aide her own escape). But the sex-thing made my knees
twitch. Maybe some of the others are better, or maybe my hot spot skewed my
judgement.
	Mez

    Re: .11
    
    The "new" Nancy Drew and Bobbsey twins series have been modernized. 
    The old series, as I remember them, are probably fine, although I've
    never been much impressed by the Drew/Hardy methods of solving crimes. 
    (Basically, wander around, get hit on the head, see/hear culprit upon
    waking, escape.  No threat to Sherlock Holmes and Ellery Queen.)
    
    I suspect a number of the "classics" are quite suitable.  Also, check
    with the library for Newberry and Caldecott award winners.  _Caddie
    Woodlawn_ is one I remember.

    I recommend "Little Lord Fauntleroy" and "The Little Princess" by 
    Frances Burnett Hodges.
    
    And perhaps some autobiographies of notable women?
    
    Carol
    

    Re: .15
    
    She also wrote _The Secret Garden_, I believe.

    re:.16
    
    Yes, she did.
    
    I'd also recommend books by Lucy Maud Montgomery. For quite some
    time, about the only ones available in the US were the Anne of
    Green Gables books, but Bantam is publishing many of her others
    in paperback now.
    
    The only trouble with these (and some of the other "classics")
    is that I'm not convinced that they fall under the criterion of
    "positive portrayal of women". Well, the female characters are
    good people, but they fall into very traditional roles. This may
    well be what the girl's mother would like to see her daughter
    read, but it bears pointing out.
    
    As regards Madeleine L'Engle, I would agree in general with
    Andrew. They are well-written, have interesting, positive female
    characters, and are basically very moral in outlook. However,
    L'Engle is still rather liberal in some respects, and some of
    her books may contain, for instance, extra-marital sex, even if
    only "suggested" rather than explicitly stated. The original
    "Time Trilogy" and the "Austin Family" series are pretty safe in
    this regard.
    
    --- jerry

           <<< RAINBO::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 716.5          Books for early-teen, with restrictions?             5 of 17
sSDEVO::RICHARD "Defender of Moral Turpitude"        21 lines  26-JUL-1989 14:05
                           -< Beware of the cults! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I would hesitate to send these (no flames intended), as they are published by
>a religious organization that is considered "cultish" by most fundamentalist
>Christians sects.  From .0's description, the girl and her mother probably
>belong to one of them, and might be offended by your sending the above mentioned
>material.


    
/Mike

    
    I would be VERY careful about labeling something Cultish! 
    I can think of a number of religious groups that I personally consider
    leaning that way.
    I would like to know what specific religion(s) thinks it is a cult?

    Is a cult?
    
    	A group that will send you any of their literature free, including
    bi-monthly publications for as long as you like?
    
    	A group that NEVER asks for a cent.
    
    	A group that produces a commercial free TV show every week,
    and NEVER asks for money.
    
    	A group that teaches religion/the bible as it can be viewed
    from today?
    
    
    		Yup, sounds like Jim Jones to me.
    
    
    Steve     

    
    BTW: send one to the mother, let her decide.

    With my former teacher hat on...
    
    Many of the books mentioned here are popular with kids, but with
    much younger kids.
    
    Nancy Drew and the other "series" books, Secret Garden, Happy
    Hollisters, Laura Ingalls Wilder -- most of these are read by kids
    in the 3rd-6th grades nowadays.  I loved Laura Ingalls Wilder so
    much that I still reread them occasionally, but a teenager seeing
    "Little House in the Big Woods" for the first time would probably
    think it babyish -- you could try some of the later books in the
    series like "Little Town on the Prairie" or "The Long Winter".
    
    Judy Blume has some good books for the junior high set.  Many of
    them are about Jewish girls, but they are never negative about
    Christianity.  They just don't address religion in an evaluative
    way.  "Are you there God, it's me Margaret" is well written.  
    I suggest looking through any of her books for stuff that would
    be objectionable to this girl's family.
    
    Paula Danziger "The Cat Ate My Gymsuit" has written quite a few
    similar novels.  Kids have real feelings of anger and frustration,
    but usually find positive ways to express the feelings.
    
    Some lighter books for that age group are a series I see in all
    the chain bookstores about 2 girls who are twins - Elizabeth and
    Jessica.  They start the series in 6th grade, and it goes through
    high school.  Sweet Valley twins?  They are innocuous, but get at
    a lot of adolescent concerns in a positive way.
    
    Little Woman is usually popular, especially the abridged version.
    
    The Chronicles of Narnia are good, and by a Christian author, but
    they are fantasy (like L'Engle).  
    
    Anything by Jane Yolen is wonderful, in my opinion, but also gets
    into the realm of magic and fantasy.  You'd have to look at the
    books individually.
    
    Book publishers today all have a Young Adult category.  This is usually
    appropriate for junior high.  A good children's librarian can show you
    selections in this category, or even give you a bibliography.  Don't
    underestimate them as a resource -- they are some of the most
    knowledgeable people about kids and books.  They are used to questions
    like the one you are asking!  They also have good published
    bibliographies for young adults on special subjects.  Some young adult
    books treat themes that would not be acceptable in your situation -
    drugs, sex, gay themes.  So look at the book carefully. 
    
    Biographies of women like Amelia Earhart would be interesting,
    especially the ones that focus on what the person was like as a
    young person.
         
    *****
    
    Have fun!  Can you tell I sometimes wish I'd finished library school
    and gone into this as a field?  Too bad you can't live on the salary...
    
    Holly 
                

    Hi--
    
    If the girl in question is a good reader, then she should enjoy
    "Watership Down", by Richard Adams, and "Tailchaser's Song", by
    Tad Williams.
    
    "Watership Down" is a positively enchanting tale about rabbits, and
    portrays heroism, nobility, and pure love.
    
    "Tailchaser's Song" is about cats, and their community, traditions,
    songs, ideals, history, and relationships.  It, too, is enchanting, and 
    is adventuresome, as is "WD".
    
    Neither of these are about people, I realize, but they are wonderful
    books for people of any age.  You feel good when you are through
    reading them!
    
    Jane

    Thanks to all who responded!  You've given me some new ideas, as well
    as confirmed some directions currently under way. It's hard for me to
    judge the appropriate-ness of the "maturity level" to send -- I have no
    children in my household to guage by -- and so have only gone by what I
    know Sandy has already read. (This includes much of the 19th century
    literature referenced in these notes.)  With fear and trepidation, I
    sent "The Diary of Anne Frank" six months ago.  No flames resulted, so
    I guess it was an OK choice.  Whew! 

    I try to mix "classics" with more contemporary selections, just for
    balance and variety. My current interest in strong female images stems
    from a desire to counterbalance Sandy's present reading trend -- she's
    sticking almost exclusively to the teenage equivalent of gothic
    romances, with plot lines that vary on the following: 
      Beautiful, fragile, and (usually) poverty-stricken girl falls for
      gorgeous, popular, and (usually) rich boy who doesn't know she's 
      alive.  Girl pines helplessly for boy, and gets in terrible trouble. 
      Boy notices girl and rescues her in the nick of time, falls for her 
      beauty and sweet nature. They date exclusively and are happy ever 
      after. (No sex, though.) The end.

    Gaack.  Unfortunately, this is all too consistent with the way her
    mother and her surrounding community see the potential for a woman's
    life.  Sandy is very intelligent and very bored, and is not getting
    much encouragement for positive use of her own  intellectual assets --
    IMO, a dangerous combination for someone about to undergo the
    "thundering hormones" phase of life.  

    Thanks again.  Looks like I have a lot of reading to do! 
    Beth
    

    re:.19
    
    The Chronicles of Narnia is by C.S. Lewis. He also has another,
    more adult religious sf/fantasy trilogy, which consists of
    OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET, PERELANDRA, and THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH.
    They're a bit tough on younger readers, but the girl in question
    sounds like she may be able to handle them.
    
    L'Engle's Time Trilogy (and its follow-up, MANY WATERS) is certainly
    fantasy, though a very Christian oriented one, and not one that
    I'd say violates the girl's mother's concern about "devils" and
    "magic" and so forth. And very few of L'Engle's other books are
    science fiction or fantasy. A RING OF ENDLESS LIGHT (which is my
    favorite of L'Engle's books) is the only one that's definitely so,
    and a couple of others are very borderline.
    
    As regards contemporary Young Adult fiction -- there is some
    dangerous ground to tread here, so I'd suggest caution. A number
    of them -- especially ones by highly regarded authors -- do deal
    with subject that fall into the forbidden areas described by Beth
    in her basenote. Judy Blume, for instance, has a Young Adult novel
    titled FOREVER that deals with teenage sex in no uncertain terms.
    Norma Fox Mazer has also dealt with the subject.
    
    Beth, it sounds like you're not passing anything along without
    reading it yourself first, which is probably a good idea. Even if
    they fail the litmus test, you're reading a lot of good books
    yourself anyways. :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Beth,
    
    So she's reading gothics, eh?  Give her _Borrowers_of_the_Night_
    by Elizabeth Peters.  It's a gothic -- and a sendup of gothics.
    There is a whole series of books featuring Vicki Bliss, but this
    is the only one you can `let' her read; she develops a, uh,
    relationship with an international jewel thief (and she thinks
    *that* is funny too) in the later books.  If she likes that book,
    she should enjoy the rest of Elizabeth Peters (except for
    _Devil-May-Care_; there is a real ghost element beyond the fakes),
    especially the ones about Amelia Peabody.  The first of those is
    _Crocodile_on_th_Sandbank_.  As you will start to suspect very soon,
    Elizabeth Peters is involved in archaeology.
    
    If she likes Peters, she should like Elsie Lee (a.k.a. Elsie Cromwell,
    et alia), especially _Dark_Moon,_Lost_Lady_ and _The_Curse_of_
    _Carrancas_ (sp?).  This leads to Anne McCaffrey's gothics, like
    _The_Mark_of_Merlin_ (Relax -- Merlin's a dog.), and _The_Kilternan_
    _Legacy_.
    
    Elsie Lee did some Regency romances, like _Second_Season_, so if
    she enjoys those, you might try _The_Grand_Sophy_ by Georgette Heyer.
    Currently Joan Smith has been writing some very funny Regency
    romances, like _Lover's_Vows_.
    
    Yes to Engdahl.  Robin McKinley, hmmm.  _Beauty_ is a wonderful
    retelling of Beauty and the Beast, so *of course* there is magic,
    but Beauty never *does* anything with it; it's just there.  So are
    fairy tales beyond the pale?  _The_Hero_and_the_Crown_ is right
    out, but _The_Blue_Sword_ might be acceptable -- unless it is wrong
    to fight demons?
    
    Anything by Jane Langton for adults.  Her children's work has a
    lot of fantasty (Would you believe a fantasy trilogy set in Concord
    about transcendentalism?).
    
    						Ann B.

    
    I wuld be very careful with Judy Bloom books.  While in Catholic
    school (six grade) I did a book report on one of these books.  Upon
    hearing my report and then reading the back cover of my book Sister
    Waltrude then proceeded to call my mother and ask her if she knew
    "the kind of filth your daughter is reading?"  My mother was well
    aware and was offended by this question as real things in real life
    have never been taboo to talk about in my house.  Certain things
    need to be explained so that kids know the difference between right
    and wrong.  There are too many things that happen in these books
    that would not be approved of.
    
    They were MY favorite books as a pre/early teen but I would highly
    suspect that the mother of this girl would be VERY offended.
    
    Katrina

	I would still try the Ann McCaffrey books about Pern, though
	they are about Dragons and such but they are really mellow
	and some have very strong female characters.

	Another recommendation would be the book by the Bronte's
	especially "Jane Eyre" (sp!).

	What you want to strive for would be books that fit the
	requirements but which stretch the young girls mind to think
	about other possibilities.  

	_peggy

		I read the Polly French book's and look how
		I turned out - hehhehehehhheee.

Hmm, seventh grade makes her age somewhere between 13 and 15?  

Yes, any of the Louisa May Alcott books (if she likes gothics, she'll probably
like An Old Fashioned Girl; there's also a couple of series: Little Women/
Little Men/Jo's Boys; Eight Cousins/Rose In Bloom)  

I was going to recommend Pride and Prejudice by ?? [um, er, blush, sigh, don't
remember, and it's one of my favorites...], but don't know whether it'd offend
with suggestion of elopement [though it's portrayed very negatively]....  You
might want to consider it, anyway, and decide for yourself.

Mysteries/adventure stories would seem to be ok....  Nancy Drew was mentioned, 
but some 'adult' works might be of interest, too:
	Agatha Christie: any of the Miss Marple books (elderly spinster who
		solves crimes/murders)
	Dorothy Gilman: any of her Mrs Pollifax books (elderly widow who 
		"volunteers" for CIA and becomes agent); her others, while
		excellent, probably wouldn't fit the restrictions....
-heroines in both series are elderly women, but no reason why role models
must be young!  I don't recall anything in these that'd be a problem, but 
you might want to check them....

		Helen

    Peggy,
    
    The Ann McCaffery books have a small amount of sex in them, and
    also involve telephathy both of which would probably not
    be acceptable.
    
    Helen,
    
    I think Pride and Prejudice is by Austin,
    
    Bonnie

        Jane Austen.
        
        BTW, if  you're in England with a few hours to spare, her house
        in Chawton (Hampshire) is well worth a visit.  Sandy and I have
        fond memories of sitting in the garden playing with a couple of
        kittens that appeared from nowhere.
        
        Andy
        

      I second Jane Austin. While her characters live the life their
      society gave them they are strong and help themselves.

      Digression, after reading what the base note set as the limits of
      this girl's world I thank god for a mother who taught me how to
      use a library and make my own value judgements. If I was that girl
      I'd hide out and read in the library. liesl

    Re: .29
    
    Well, some of Jane Austen.  _Pride and Prejudice_ is marvelous. 
    However, I think it was _Northanger Abbey_ that was a take-off on the
    then-popular gothics, so Catherine's something of a drip.  I wasn't 
    terribly impressed with Fanny in _Mansfield Park_, either.

    re: several back: you mentioned that you were a bit unsure about
    the maturity level of her reading material; my suggestion:
    
    If she's in seventh grade, and (as you said) intelligent, try to
    push the envelope -- suggest adult level books.  The best way to
    expand her horizons is to stretch her imagination. 
    
    How about biographies?  If you think they're appropriate, see if
    there's a biography of Mme. Curie -- a role model for us all.
    
    					andrew

    Along the lines Andrew is suggesting, I found James Michener's books
    to be wonderful for me in 8th grade.  We studied ancient history
    that year, and I remember reading "The Source" and having it all
    come alive for me.  I read almost everything he'd written by the
    time I was in 11th grade.  
    
    

    New Words in Cambridge MA has a series of books about famous women
    -- they appear to be biographies aimed at youngsters -- if you're
    in the area, you might want to check these out.
    
    liz

   Marie Curie's daughter (the artist, not the physicist) wrote an 
*excellent* biography of her mother.  It is highly recommended -- don't know if
it's in print though . . .  She describes Marie's ideas about education for
children.  Marie ran a school (complete with chemistry labs) when her children
were 10ish.

   I would recommend biographies about Queen Elizabeth I and Queen Victoria as
well (Queen Victoria was a devoted mother to nine children, as well as 
reigning over the empire!)

    Seventh grade is old enough for adult stories if she reads a lot.

    Good Luck with your choices.

Barbi 

    Careful about Mitchner -- some of his early ones especially have
    sufficient sex in them to have them appear on the "banned" list
    when I was your step-daughter's age (with a mother of similar bent,
    it would appear).  I read _Hawaii_ on the sly myself when in early
    high-school.
    
    They're probably also too long unless your step-daughter is REALLY
    advanced for her age.
    
    Karen
                

    This note has certainly brought out us read-only readers!
    
    My 10-year-old niece considers Judy Blume "too babyish" now.
    I never give a book to a child unless I read it first. And
    I've never seen anything objectionable in the ones I've read.
    One is about God (the traditional Christian one)! Another is 
    about a bothersome younger sibling.
    
    My suggestion is the young adult literature classic Green Mansions,
    by W. H. Hudson. This book is taught in schools, so I doubt that
    it has anything objectionable in it. It's one of the most 
    beautiful books I've read. It's about a former soldier in a
    19th-century South American jungle who encounters a young
    girl who lives with her grandfather and is trusted by animals
    and birds.
    
    The rage with pre-adolescent girls right now is a series called
    The Babysitters' Club. I haven't read these, so I can't comment.
    
    Eileen
    

    It isn't going to fit most of your criteria:
    
    the main character's a boy
    he goes through a tollboth into another world
    there's a Which in it (no misspelling :^) )  and a
       Mathamagician
    
    but it's just plain fun and the hidden message is the
    value of learning.
    
    (my apologies for dropping in un-introduced)
    Kathy

    Try Phyllis Whitney -- she writes adult and young adult fiction,
    most of it adventure or mystery stuff.  Depending on the story,
    the female role models might not be quite as strong as you'd
    prefer, but I used to enjoy them when I was a teenager. 
    
    Judy Blume is quite likely to offend many mothers, not just
    religious conservative mothers.  It's not so much what she writes
    about it as the tone she takes.  I can't explain further since I
    don't find her offensive, but her books are frequently removed
    from school library shelves or put on restricted distribution.
    
    --bonnie

    How about Lois Lenski?
    
    She has written many books, mostly about young (pre-teen) girls
    living in various parts of the U.S.   These are stories about the
    locale and traditions of a mining community in Kentucky, I remember
    a story about a girl in the Plains area.  They're very good books,
    nothing in them to raise an eyebrow - and I believe some of them
    have won awards (Caldecott and Newbury).  Ms. Lenski has a very
    distinctive illustrating style also - very plain, but very
    recognizable.  
    
    There is another children's author that I will post tomorrow.  For
    the life of me, I can't remember her name - but she also writes
    about different locales and traditions of young girls (plus numerous
    others).  I know she has written a book about a Quaker girl, a girl
    from Norway who's family immegrated to the U.S. (this book is actually
    a beautifully written and illustrated book, one of my favorites).
    I have the book at home, will post the author tomorrow.
    
    Donalea
    

        I would be very surprised if Green Mansions was acceptable, and
        not interpretted as having too much "magic" and unChristian
        stuff in it. The guidelines posted in the topic note are quite
        strict, and it seems likely that things that many of the noters
        here would barely notice, let alone question, could be
        troublesome.
        
        Much though I love the Pern books, I doubt that the dragons,
        even though they are not at all related to "real" dragons, and
        the psychic aspects of the stories would be acceptable either.
        Again, too close to magic, which is too close to witchcraft and
        Satanism.
        
        I agree--read before you send. Many of the books mentioned here
        will be fun to read even if you can't forward them.
        
        JimB.

I would suggest _Nobody's_Girl_ which is the story of a girl who is
orphaned and must make her way to her grandfather.  But, instead of simply
declaring herself to her grandfather once she gets to him, she tries to
prove herself (the only thing that might be unacceptable is that her
parents married without the grandfather's permission) and her adventures
before she is welcomed home from making her own sandles to having to work
in the mill her grandfather owns make you respect her/laugh /cry and in
general make a good read.

It is very much a do-good novel in all the best senses.

Tamar

    _Pennies_for_the_Piper_ is a more contemporary version of an
    orphaned girl must cope, and make her way to her family.  I found
    it very impressive.  And quite readable.
    
    							Ann B.