Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I think that catcalls (catcalls, by virtue of the name, refers to
    something that is said to women/cats/pussies/etc.) are another form
    of intimidation, disrespect and violence against women.  In a work
    environment it is called sexual harrassment.
    

    BTW, if this is going to be a laudry list of all the catcalls men
    (not *all* men but *always* men) have used against women, then I
    sincerely hope that the moderators will liberally apply set hidden
    since this type of a topic is of no interest to women.  If we are
    going to have a discussion of why catcalls are sexist and degrading,
    then that is a different story.  If the former was the intent of
    the author of .0, then expect that I will SET FLAME/THROWER ON!
    

    I hate the way most people abuse the concept of the right to free
    speech. That right does not empower one to be rude and obnoxious
    and offensive. Perhaps the government has no power to outlaw catcalls
    but that does not imply that it is alright to do so.
    
    Assault is the *threat* of harm. The right of free speech does not
    protect assault.
    
                                                   
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re: Catcalls,

Growing up with an extremely feminist older sister, I had it
drilled into me that catcalls were not appricated by women.
Given that information I have never taken part in this offensive
behavior.  But I never quite understood how women felt about
it until it happened to me.    

It was quite surprising (it was by five women when I was walking
in the Park Street T stop when I was about 19).  I had quite
a mix of emotions, and was surprised that fear was one of them.
I think they were just joking around and just trying to enjoy some
freedom, still I was not in the mood and it helped me understand
what women have to put up with.

Too bad more men haven't had this experience.

    Yo baby ...yo baby ..yo..yo..yo..yo..yo
    Uh uh uh...Lord have mer-cy!!
    
    Hey Mama...what's happening??!!! Baby baby..please ...please ...oh
    baby...
    
         The above are some of the most common forms of cat-calling
    that I have heard.....totally sickening.
    
    
    So, what's the verdict ladies? When this happens to you, what is
    the best approach, or should I say reproach? Ignore it, or respond
    with a quick response, or even humor?
    
    
    chris
    
    

    Oscar Wilde said " there is only one thing worse than being talked
    about, and that is not to be talked about "
    
    Whilst I would never support harrasment of anyone.....is there not
    a danger that women are asking to be ignored ? May be so ?
    
    DejW
    

    As to response, that depends on the situation.  If I'm alone,
    especially if I am on foot, the best thing to do is get the heck
    out of there but _don't_ let him/them see that I even noticed.
    
    In my braver days (or even nowadays, if I am safely accompanied
    or able to get away quick), the most *satisfying* solution was to
    either: 1) run eyes up and down him/them once then sneer in revulsion,
    or 2) spit on the ground (_Not_ at him/them).  These have been
    satisfying because they say to a person that his display of manliness
    is pathetic and revolting.
    
    Any reaction whatsoever is dangerous and non-reaction is amost equally
    dangerous.  I was beat up once for using option 2 (above).  I have
    been followed and offered money for not noticing cat-calls.  A friend
    was followed for three miles in Greece for not saying *one* word
    or noticing his presence; he tried at least six languages on her.
    
    A joke encourages this, recognizing the existence of the cat-caller
    encourages this.
    
    Lee

    Jerry,
    
    At least the threat of violence. Catcalls can be very intimidating
    and frightening.
    
    Bonnie

    re .8
    
    jerry, the violence is in the threat, and from _this_ end, a cat-call
    is an expression of "what I'd like to do to ya baby" - it is enormously
    frightening.  And if a woman does not respond pleasantly, violence
    often _does_ follow an ignored cat-call.  While all cat-callers
    may not intend to threaten physical harm, I'd lay a bet that any
    woman on foot and alone will interpret any cat-call as a threat
    of violence.
    
    Lee

    re:.9
    
    That I understand. Even if the catcaller doesn't intend to
    physically back up his suggestive remarks, it can inspire
    intimidation and fear. But the "threat of violence" isn't
    the same as violence.
    
    --- jerry

    Re: .8 by AKOV11::BOYAJIAN
    >Intimidation and disrespect I have no argument with, but
    >"violence"?
    
       I could see where something like this could BECOME violent. like
    someone else said, when they reacted, the person became very violent
    and the end result was indeed violence to the victim.
    
    

Consider the following:

 A man walks down a street.  Gathered at a street corner are a number of 
youths of rowdy appearance, sitting on the walls or the kerb, just "hanging
around". 

 As the man approaches, one or more of these young people notice him, and start
a series of calls along the lines of
	"Hey man, nice watch"
	"You got any money?"
	"F---ing yuppies!"
	"Yo yo yo, yeah you, hey, you wanna give us that bag..."

 The young people are making no overtly threatening gestures, but have merely
noticed the approaching man and are commenting on it.  

 Should the man feel threatened? Would you? Are the youths just exercising
their first amendment rights of free speech? Are the youths just exercising
their right to "hang out" on a nice afternoon???

					Nigel

    in re .11
    
    How do you know if the 'threat of violence' is or is not going
    to turn into the real thing. 
    
    Bonnie

    Re: < Note 155.13 by SCRUFF::CONLIFFE >
    
    In the scenario that you describe, yes, I would think that the man
    being the "victim" would feel threatened. He wouldn't know whether
    to perceive their roudiness as being "all in fun" or something that
    they really meant to do.
    
    Chris
    
    

    re:.14
    
    I don't. And I'm not just talking on the theoretical level.
    I've been in a similar situation, though the verbal abuse I
    received at the time was race-related not gender-related. I
    certainly felt a threat of violence -- no doubt about it. But
    I didn't consider the verbal abuse *in itself* a violent act.
    
    A person who talks about committing a crime cannot be arrested
    for committing a crime until he follows up his talk with a
    physical act. OK, maybe I'm just being pedantic about terminology,
    so I'll shut up now.
    
    --- jerry

    
    re: Is verbal abuse considered violence?
    
    Consider it a violent attack on the psyche.  One definition of 
    violence is: " harm done by violating rights, etc."
    
    In my opinion, verbal abuse *can* constitute violence.
    
    Sharon

    re: .6
    
    "is there not a danger that women are asking to be ignored..."
    
    I can't even come close to getting at what in the world this statement
    means.  If catcalls are the only way for women to be acknowledged,
    then PLEASE ignore me.  Besides, by whom are we going to be ignored?
    Yes, without someone constantly telling women how good/bad,
    beautiful/ugly we are, we may just evaporate or feel insecure or
    something.  
    
    The only danger here is the implied threat of physical violence
    and the real psychological and emotional violence that occurs in
    the act of a man using catcalls on women.
    
    Which also responds to several of the entries that Jerry supplied.
    In most instances, the threat of violence precedes the actual violence,
    and since I'm no mind reader I can't predict what is going to happen
    after the actual and very real threat of violence.  Not to mention
    the aspects of emotional and psychological violence.
    
    Some of these responses, again, cross the line into the realm of
    blaming the victim.  Just because not *all* men but *always* men
    use catcalls against women, we aren't supposed to feel threatened,
    or violated, or abused.  
    
    Perhaps some of you male noters who can't quite understand the subtle
    variations on violence should talk to the man who related his
    experience at the age of 19 when a group of women used him as the
    target of 'catcalls'.  If you can't understand the female perspective
    as a recipient of this abuse, perhaps you will be able to understand
    it from this one man's perspective.
    
    And for the male noters who have made some sensitive and intelligent
    responses to this topic, thank you.
    

    re: .19
    
    "(4) Some women feel threatened by any overt show of sexual interest."
    
    (4) Some women feel offended by any overt show of gross insensitivity.
    

    "Yo, baby, yo!" is one thing...
    
    How about wolf whistles?  No lewd, threatening gestures or words,
    just a nice appreciative whistle?
    
    Bill

re: .6 by David Wilson:

    > Whilst I would never support harrasment of anyone.....is there not
    > a danger that women are asking to be ignored ? May be so ?
    
    David,
    
    Many women feel violated by this kind of activity. Catcalling is yet
    another form of power that some men feel they have a right to exert
    over women. Many women _would_ like to be ignored on the street, if
    that means being treated like human beings worthy of respect, and if
    that means being given safe passage. 
    

re: jerry b's notes

    Jerry, 
    
    I appreciate the fact that you recognized that maybe you were "just
    being pedantic about terminology", but what you've been saying presents
    me with an opportunity to point something out. Women have been talking
    here about how they feel when they get catcalled. Some women have said
    that it feels violent. And you've questioned that experience (three
    times). 
    
    It is important to many people here to develop a safer place to talk
    about our lives. And yet, that work can get interrupted with this type
    of questioning. Clearly, it's important to ask questions, but there's a
    subtle difference between _questioning_ and _challenging_. Here's an
    example of a question that I would not take as a challenge. 

      > I think of catcalling as intimidating and disrespectful. A few 
      > people have mentioned that they also perceive it as violent, and
      > I've never thought about it that way before. Could someone say
      > more about this?


    Thanks
    Liz 
    
    We now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion. If anyone would 
    like to discuss this further, perhaps we could start a new note.

    
    
    	re: .23
    
    	Hmmmmmmm.  I'll admit, that question makes me think.  There have
    	been times in my life that I have been flattered by an
    	appreciative whistle, and I have to admit that I have delivered
    	a few.
    
    	So, what's the difference?  I'll have to think on that one.
    
    	Sharon

    re:.24
    
    I see your point, and I agree that the way your rephrased that
    does seem less challenging, but I guess I just didn't see my
    notes as being challenging. Why? Because I clearly stated them
    as being *my opinion* rather than relying on it being understood.
    I used phrases such as "I don't see that..." which explicitly
    denotes that I was expressing an opinion. Not once did I say, or
    even suggest, that any woman was "wrong" in thinking of catcalls
    as violent, just that I didn't see it that way, and I tried to
    explain why I feel the way I do. It seemed to me that the question
    "why do you think it's so?" was implicit.
    
    --- jerry

    jerry,
    
    the threat of violence is legally considered just as real as physical
    violence. Assault is the threat of attack, battery is the physical
    attack. Usually assault & battery occur at the same time but it is not 
    necessarily so, legally. 
    
    If a total stranger walked up to you and hit you from behind,
    technically, he can only be charged with battery.
    
    If someone else convincingly declared that he would hunt you down
    and kill you, yet did no physical harm, he can be charged with assault
    (but have lots of witnesses).
    
    The convincing _threat_ of violence is just as much a violation
    of one's rights as the physical act of violence.
    
                                                   
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    re .23, Appreciative wolf-whistle
    
    I enjoy flirting and a wolf whistle can be fun ****BUT****
    
    ONLY  when I am not threatened.  (Golly I wish I could make these
                                      letters bigger...)
    
    If I know you, it is not a threat.  
    If I am surrounded by a million people (who are known to me), 
    it is not a threat.
    If I am in a car, it is not a threat.
    
    If I've never seen you before, it is probably a threat.
    If I am on foot, it is probably a threat.
    If I am alone, it is probably a threat.
    And if you do your best to look as harmless as possible, it is probably
    not a threat.
    
    So while it **might** be received with appreciation, it is just
    as likely to be received with the emotions Marge mentioned; the
    recipient may well feel violated rather than flattered.  If I were
    a man, I don't think I'd gamble on cat-calls.
    
    Lee

      
    
    I saw a newscast which showed that lady who put up the signs.
    first they showed reactions from women (who were saying about
    the same things as in here) and then reactions from the "men".
    it was, of course, a group of seedy looking construction 
    workers who all seemed to be doing there best Sylvester Stallone
    impressions and it didn't appear that there combined I.Q.s
    would go into triple digits.
    
    my point is, the reason i think women are not liking these 
    catcalls is because it is coming from these sorts of characters.
    ignorant, tactless goons that to look at it wouldn't take a
    wild imagination to see them becoming violent at the slightest
    provacation such as not getting what they consider to be a 
    satisfactory response from a particular woman.
    so i think its a matter of considering the source.
    
    i'd like to know how many woman out there would feel outraged/
    scared if say Tom Cruise, Mel Gibson (insert your own here) were
    walking down the street and gave you a catcall?
    
    Bob

    If someone that I know whistles at me when I am feeling especially
    well dressed, or in some other way tells me that I look nice I
    appreciate it, and feel happy. If a stranger happens to say - gee
    that's a pretty dress, or something equivalent as I am walking
    down the corridor at work, that is also nice.
    
    But having rude remarks hollered at you by strangers is uncomfortable
    and unpleasant at best.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .23 and .29
    
    I definitely agree with .29......
    
    it all depends on setting.
    
    2 extremes:
    
    at a party, among friends, one woman shows up dressed to kill, gets
    a few whistles, will most likely be flattered.
    
    same woman, after party, walking back to her own place, maybe through
    a deserted parking lot, some "men" hanging out and drinking, a few
    whistles, and she should start checking for her mace....

    ..If say Tom Cruise, Mel Gibson or Robert Redford were to ever give
    me a catcall - I would be truly disappointed in them and MY taste
    in men!  A hello from one of the above and I would probably
    melt on the spot - a catcall and I would think they were an A*HOLE!
    
    Suzanne

    
    yeah, i guess rude is rude. (well, in the context of a society)
    
    an aside --
        the last note mentioned Robert Redford -
     i worked with this lady one summer who at one time ran an antique
    store in Hollywood.  She said one day Mr. Redford walked in and
    she stood there pinching herself and then he came up and asked her
    something.  She fainted. 
    
    Bob

    Hmm. What I'm hearing in this discussion is that catcalls are
    _sometimes_ acceptable in "safe" environments. And so far, one "safe"
    environment is with people we know and feel comfortable around.
    Catcalls from strangers can feel degrading, intrusive, frightening or
    worse, and are rarely taken as a compliment. 
    
    Liz

    re the question about Mel Gibson and Tom Cruise...
    
    I guess it depends on what is consider an actual "catcall"  
    Bonnie stated she didn't mind if someone she knew commented on a
    nice dress she was wearing...Is that consider a "catcall" for someone
    to say "Thats a very pretty dress your wearing", or only if its
    a stranger on a lonely street at night when no-one else is around?
    
    Well if Billy Dee or Mel GIbson said that to me I would probably
    melt too...Now if they started getting rude with the comment (Thats
    a very pretty dress your wearing, lets get a look at whats under
    it...etc) and sh*t like that I wouldn't be flattered at all...and
    that is what I consider a cat call....
    
    

    Re: .1
    
    >catcalls, by virtue of the name, refers to something that is said
    >to women/cats/pussies/etc.
    
    I'm not convinced.  Actors can receive boos and catcalls, as one
    non-gender-specific example.
    
    Re: sometimes okay, sometimes not
    
    I think we touched this in the note about leering in the previous
    incarnation.  It's safe when you think that it's just words.  It's
    safe when the words only involve *you* -- how you look -- and not
    the speaker.  It's safe when there's no attempt to establish a
    connection between you and the speaker.

    As it happens, I was crossing Main St., Maynard, alone at lunch
    today and a whole car full of young guys whistled and made cat calls
    at me.  I found it offensive.  I'm not dressed in revealing clothes.
     I wasn't walking with a wiggle.  I don't understand why they did
    it.  I glanced at them and they looked young enough to be my kids.
     What were they trying to do except amuse themselves by getting
    away with harrassing a woman, alone, minding her own business?

    I think if a man finds a particular woman attractive he can arrange
    to meet her or else mind his own business and keep his mouth shut.
    
    Lorna
    

    This is a phenomenon I've wondered about all my life.
    
    As other noters have mentioned, a lot depends on the situation you
    are in when you get "catcalled".  When I am with another woman and
    we are having fun together, a wolf whistle or two is pretty funny.
    And yes, it *does* cross my mind to be flattered.  After all, I'm
    with someone else, probably getting into my car and am *safe*.
    
    If I am alone and on foot, and absolutely have to walk by a 
    construction site (not to generalise--just for the sake of this
    note), I HATE HATE HATE the calls, the suggestions, the little 
    noises, etc.  It makes me feel horrible, scared, and humiliated.
    And let me tell you, a woman who feels that way is NOT likely to
    turn herself around and say, "Well SURE boys!  One a time or all
    together?" ;-}
    
    I just feel it's one of those social things we have to live with,
    and avoid whenever we possibly can.  I have walked blocks out of
    my way just to avoid walking by a "trouble spot".  
    
    For me it's humiliating.
    
    Yuck.
    
    Jane
    
    

    re: 28
    
    Assault of someone can't be in the future.  The immediate threat
    of assault or battery must be happening right now.  You can't legally
    go and fill out a complaint because someone said they'd kill you
    next week.  In Massachusetts, assault is a verbal and intimidating
    threat, you do not have to prove that the person actually physically
    meant to harm you, the courts look to see if you the person being
    assaulted had a real fear of the person doing the assaulting.  Assault
    and battery do not have to be connected either.  As a tort, the
    two are separate, as a criminal action, the two do go hand in hand,
    but in terms of a verbal assault with the actual intention of
    performing an overt act such as physically hitting someone.
    
    

    
    I think no matter how you hate the calls you have to live
    with it.   Remember human beings are just animal.  Males
    are always attracted to the females.  Catcalls are just one
    way to reveal it.   I believe most of catcalls are well
    intended.  So you females just have to understand and learn not
    to be scared.   May be a smile will just make the day of the
    guy. 

    mr. ru (i can only assume that you're male):
    
    have you actually read all the replies in this note before responding?
    I'm frankly somewhat surprised to see your response, given what's
    been said here.
    
    Liz

    <--(.44)
    
    Jason, since you're a Senior Engineer I'm quite surprised to see you
    make such a glaring logical error:  "most" is not the same as "all".
    
    Just because "most" catcalls may be just noise does not mean that any
    particular instance is, and it is exactly that uncertainty that
    makes being the target such an unpleasant experience.  Surely you
    can see that?
    
    						=maggie 

    Re .44:
    
    I for one am not interested in "making the day" of a guy who would
    be so rude.  Who the _hell_ is he to harrass me, and to publicly
    "appraise" me?         
                           
    What always amazes me is when a guy who is no charmer himself--perhaps 
    a beer belly, poorly dressed, "unkempt"--will loudly rate a women,
    using for example animal metaphors about her weight.  The thought
    of applying the same standard to himself as to her never seems to
    occur to him.  And the idea that no one cares what his opinion
    of her is certainly never occurs to him!                
                          
    I also saw the news story on the catcall signs.  Again, women were
    interviewed and they said many of the same things said here.  Then
    a guy was interviewed and his response was along the lines of "That
    (sign) will just make guys even angrier and make it worse!"  Even 
    angrier?  Is that why they do it?  Because they're angry at us?
    
    
    -Tracy          
    

    Something about this whole discussion reminds me of the old argument,
    "I know she _said_ no, but I know she really wanted it..."
    

>    This will not be changed in our life-times in America.  But if women
>    can convince men that they NEVER EVER react favorably to catcalls
>    and actually prefer men who _try_ to be charming even if they fail
>    maybe the percentage of crude male behavior will drop from 65% to
>    45% over ten years ... (In Soapbox Friday is "make up a fact day")


Trust me, I can assure you that women **NEVER** react favorably to 
catcalls, never have, and are never likely to.  How the woman reacts has 
no effect whatsoever, except perhaps to make it worse.

Men seem to enjoy the no-win position they put women in when they engage
in this kind of harrassment. If she ignores you, it's proof she's
uncomfortable.  If she reacts then you have just demonstrated your
power to force her to respond to you. She might try the friendly
approach, hoping it will pacify the catcaller and prevent worse or she
might try a hostile approach hoping to discourage anything worse. Most
walk an uncomfortable line of feigned indifference.  In no case do women 
ever encourage this kind of activity, they merely try various 
ineffective responses to reducing its impact on them.  Perhaps if they 
tried semi-automatic sidearms, they could make the point?

Verbal assault is violence.  It may not be physical, but it decidedly 
psychic and emotional.  The words invade a woman's private space against 
her will.  They claim her body and mind as public property -- a thing 
with no rights of self-possession, and whose personal will does not need 
to be respected.  

Insofar as likening this kind of thing to appreciative comments between 
friends in a trusted environment, the two things are as alike as sex with a 
trusted partner and rape.  The analogy should not escape notice.  Many 
men seem to have a hard time telling the difference between sex and rape,
so it shouldn't be a surprise that so many don't quite get why this kind 
of verbal rape is upsetting to women.

Like rape, the imputation of this offense only to bunches of lower-class 
slobs with low IQs is a bit classist.  These attitudes toward women are 
not unique to men who work with their hands for a living.

    Thank you, Catherine, well-said.
    

    Re: .49
    
    >Trust me, I can assure you that women **NEVER** react favorably
    >to catcalls
    
    I don't trust you.  I'm sure that there are at least one or two
    who react favorably to the attention (smile, wave, wiggle a little
    more as they pass).  Or do you not classify these people as women?

    Actually some women *do* say that they enjoy being whistled
    at etc.....some of the answers to this note in mensnotes were
    from women who said they liked it.
    
    Bonnie

	To me the word "catcalls" indicates immediately something that
       is not desirable. Classist or not I do associate this with blue
       collar workers and not technical types. These are rarely of the
       innocent "don't you look nice variety". They are the "what I'd do
       to you if I could" sort of comment reinforced by the "boys" howls
       of appreciation. I've not been bothered by a man who was alone.
       This seems the sort of thing they do in packs, like jackels
       hounding wounded prey. I find it very frightening. They would
       hurt us if they could get away with it. It reminds of the thin
       veil that society really is, covering the beast within only until
       no one is watching. Young toughs harassing men on the street are
       the same.

       On the other hand, teasing and joking with men you know and feel
       safe around is very enjoyable. Their comments are welcomed and
       it's sometimes that teasing and it's level of acceptance that
       lets two people know there is something more that could happen.
       But then I wouldn't call that sort of joking around catcalls,
       it's just not the same. liesl

    .02 	No my intent was not to have a list of catcall's.  I
                just was wondering how the women felt about catcalls.
                Like I said I put the note in MENNOTES also to get both
    		sides of the story.  I wanted to know how bad some people
                would get if they did catcall (Men and Women Alike).
                
    The_instigator.

    
    How did this ever come to be called "cat calling"? 
    
    Has anyone ever successfully called a cat?
    

    Bob,
    
    I have successfully called a cat or many cats many times!
    
    
    
   by the sound of a can opener opening a can of cat food!
    
    
    
    I think that the term cat calling comes from the sounds that
    Tom Cats make (especialy at night) when they are courting
    a  queen cat in heat.  Have you ever heard the sound?! There
    is a distinct similarity in the emotional overtones!
    
    by the way, I bougth the Life Magazine issue of 150 years of
    photography a week or so ago. Among the excellant pictures in
    the issue was a two page spread of a young American woman being
    harassed by men in Paris. I would encourage any man who has
    any question about how catcalls of an intrusive and sexual nature
    affect women look at the picture...the men look like slavering
    beasts almost, and the young woman has the look on her face that
    I am sure many women can identify with, of a combination of
    fear/disgust/and bravely facing out a tough situation.
    
    Given that the entire staff that put the picture essay together
    were women, I have a feeling that they all looked at that picture
    and got an internal 'aha' and decided to include it in the magazine.
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    Ah...Catherine did I read your note correctly??
    
    Many times I have wished that I had one of the weapons that the
    Israeli (sp?) army carry that I could just swing it around and
    pop the individual who is "complimenting" me with his appraisal
    of my appearance.  Mind you there is no harm intended on my part
    just as it is all in fum for them to comment on me.
    
    _peggy
    
    
    		(-|-)
    		  |
    		  |
    			Maybe I should ... Nah it might be illegal.
    
    

    
    re: .49
    
> Trust me, I can assure you that women **NEVER** react favorably to 
> catcalls, never have, and are never likely to.  

    Please *think* before writing.  Especially on issues that get heated,
    such as this one.  I agree that cat calls are poor taste, even obscene
    (sp?), however, your assertion is incorrect.  To say that women
    **NEVER** react favorably is a falsehood, or an error.  To preface
    it with "Trust me," will make it more difficult to do so in future
    topics.  Some woman react favorably, but if ONLY ONE in all past
    history and/or all the future of humankind reacts favorably, then
    your assertion is wrong.
                                   
    > Verbal assault is violence.  
    
    I have never heard of this as fact.  If this is an opinion of yours,
    state it as such.  (BTW, I do agree, but acknowlege it as my opinion
    only).
    
    >>> Flame on <<<
    
    
    > Many men seem to have a hard time telling the difference between sex
    > and rape,
    
    Again, *your opinion*, and I take great offense at that kind of
    sterotyping!  I am a man and I know many men and I know of NO ONE
    who has a mistaken view of the difference between sex and rape.
     With the number of men that I know well enough to understand where
    they draw the line, the number who would confuse the two approaches
    zero!
    
    > These attitudes toward women are not unique to men who work with
    > their hands for a living.

    Say WHAT!??@!?  These attitudes toward women are MOST CERTAINLY
    unique to men who work with their hands for a living!  While I agree
    with a lot of what you have to say, I object, in the strongest terms,
    to how you express it!  I am not going to say that you haven't a
    right to your opinion, but it is my opinion that you are greatly
    misinformed and highly opinionated.
    
    I am sorry if I flammed to such an extent.  It is not normally in
    my nature to do so, but....
    
    jimmy (who has worked with his hands for a living for more years
    than I can count!)
    

    Its difficult to go on record as saying this, but having grown up
    somewhat differently from many noters, I don't mind. In my youth,
    I was VERY insecure about my looks. To a certain extent, I still
    am. I spent much of my childhood enjoying catcalls as a means of
    boostering my ego. This SHOCKED my parents, who constantly told
    me that I should think more highly of myself than to be pleased
    by such things, but this is where I was coming from. In fact, I
    got myself into a rather ugly situation once; I responded so much
    to one guy's catcalls (I was 13-14) that he thought I wanted to
    have sex. Suffice to say that I didn't, and it was not pleasant
    having to explain, but there was no violence. And after a few months,
    no fear.
    
    But in general, catcalls don't threaten me. But then, I was never
    raped by a stranger... All too often, I look at who is doing it,
    confront them, and recognize that they are humans. And that catcalling
    from a safe vantage point removes the humanity. Confrontation can
    bring it back, and remind a guy of reality. Some guys stammer quite
    a bit when confronted, and end up looking foolish in front of their
    peers. Other times, their peers will play the gentleman and apologize
    for the misbehavior. And other times, it doesn't play out that way.
    I don't always stick around to find out.
    
    Catherine Ianuzzo, I've probably really lowered myself in your eyes,
    and I hate to break your bubble, but please don't say "never". I know
    that I'm not alone. For some men, what you may call catcalling is
    their way of saying hello. When you grow up with it, you get used
    to it; its a matter of survival. And it beats the heck out of being
    scared of whistling men. (I'm not saying that you are...)
    
    I've got much more pride ans self-esteem than I did as a teenager,
    but I haven't forgotten how valuable I found those "noises". Unless
    I'm really looking scuzzy, or the neighborhood is unsafe, I chock
    one up for myself, and their good eyes. Sometimes, I even say thank
    you.    

    re .62
    
    Who is Tom Rush?

    in re .64 in re .62
    
    Tom Rush is a folk singer

>    I just feel it's one of those social things we have to live with,

Oh no, don't live with it. Tell your friends that it hurts you and other women.
Of course, I'm never around friends and acquaintances while they're doing it,
so I try to bring this sort of thing up in a relaxed atomosphere. You know,
we're having a couple of beers, the conversation slows, and I say 'There's this
great discussion [in an electrical bulliten board, if they know anything about
computers]...'. 
	Mez

    Re .61:
    
    Well, it seems like once again we're being told we don't have the
    right to feel the way we do.  If you're humiliated, angry, frightened,
    by catcalling, then you're just an extremist because, after all,
    it doesn't always end in rape.  And besides females have been known
    to do not-nice things to males, so what right do you have to complain
    about a behaviour that many (not all, not most, but many) men engage
    in and that you don't like?
    
    -Tracy
    

    I had not intended to respond to this note, as I did not think that
    I had much to bring to the conversation, even after the gentleman
    in note .61 had kindly pointed out the error of our ways. After
    Tracy's note (.67), I thought I'd just point out that I agree with her
    and that, once again, a man has entered a note for a purpose better
    known to himself, but which could be:
    
    	- being sarcastic for the Hell of it;
    	- attempting to trivialize a perfectly reasonable discussion;
    	- being certain that a man knows better, and should share his knowledge
    	  around;      
    	- trying to see if somebody raised to the bait (done).
                 
    To come back to the topic discussed (I don't feel what's-his-name
    deserves a note all to himself), I am very ambivalent about cat-calls:
    yes, I feel they are a mark of disrespect and also potentially
    threatening, but I remember having sometimes enjoyed cat-calls when
    I was feeling particularly smashing, and being whistled
    at made me feel on the top of the world ... though I was much younger
    then, and maybe - as a previous noter said - was unsure enough of
    myself to welcome this sort of attention. Now, I just brush them
    off as annoying, and walk more quickly, and hope they'll forget
    about me as soon as I have passed. In a way, I also feel sorry for
    the guys who whistle and shout: they're doing it because  they don't
    know any better, and most of them don't mean any harm... though
    they do it.
    
    Joana 
                                                          

    I have been reading through these notes and have so many thoughts
    going through my head that I'm not quite sure where to begin.
    
    To say that I have been angered by the responses of the
    not *all* men, but *always* men to this particular topic
    would be a gross understatment.
    
    re:  .44
    
    "So you females just have to understand and learn not to be scared."
    
    This must be another *sensitive* man response...
    
    And let's hear it, one more time (ad nauseum) for BLAMING the victims.
    
    
    re:  .52
    
    To: Tryin' real hard to adust...
    
    based on your note, looks like you're failing miserably in that
    area...                        
    
    
    re: .49
    
    "or do you not clasify these people as women?"
    
    Actually, I refer to them as female impersonators...
    
    
    
    I'm not sure which upset me more, the obnoxious male responses or
    the women who said they liked to be harrassed on the streets.  To
    me it seems like the old Phyllis Schlafley syndrome...there she
    was on the forefront, fighting like hell against ERA because she
    was afraid that women would have to use men's bathrooms or some
    such nonsense if ERA passed.  She is the perfect woman, who has
    bought, hook, line and sinker, the male prescription for how a woman
    *should* be: look, act, feel, dress, etc., etc.  And it is women
    like Phyllis that the men latch onto and say, "see, SHE doesn't
    want ERA, so why should all you other women."  It is the same trap
    that the men have fallen into when responding to this note, "see,
    some women don't mind catcalls, so what's wrong with the rest of
    you..."
    
    Actually, the question is backwards, it should read..."most women
    despise catcalls, so what's wrong with the women who like them..."
    
    And yes, we have had the endless drone of so very helpful comments,
    such as, 'we shouldn't feel threatened' or 'we should be grateful
    for the compliment' or 'we're over-reacting' or 'we're too sensitive'
    or 'we're too emotional' and blah, blah, blah to the point where
    I thought I'd toss my cookies (preferably on one of you well-meaning
    men...[no smiley face intended]).
    
    And then you *sensitive* (by whose standards) men get your feelings
    hurt when we make comments about the fact that your input in this
    forum is as useful as snowshoes in the tropics.  Invalidating my
    feelings and experiences is not useful to me.  If I were a well-heeled
    female impersonator I'd be thanking you for setting me straight
    and living my life wishing that some ignorant boor would shout lewd
    comments at me about my anatomy.  I guess I just didn't get it right
    when I was in training to be a Phyllis Schlafley clone.
    

    during rush week at college (first week freshman year), I went on
    a canoeing trip with a bunch of frat guys on the charles river.
    it was a lovely day, so I had on a bikini top.
    
    as we rounded a bend in the river, three men in lawn-chairs held
    up placards with the number 9 written on them.
    
    I asked them what the nines were for.  they laughed, said it was
    a judgement of our canoeing skills, then laughed some more.
    
    I was insulted, because my canoeing skills on flatwater were (and
    still are) impeccable; I had been canoeing most of my life, and
    had been active in whitewater canoeing until about a year before
    this time.
    
    later on, I figured out what the placards really were.  I didn't
    know whether to be pleased because I rated a 9 in their eyes, or
    furious at their temerity; who the heck do they think they are?!?
    
    there was a part of me that was pleased because I did a "good job"
    fulfilling a young woman's role in american society; yes I was a
    _good_ ornament and pleasing to the eye.  Can you say "brainwashing"?
    :/
    
    there was a part of me which fumed.  who were they and who gave
    them the right to judge me?!?  furthermore, who gave them the right
    to tell _me_ and declare to the rest of the world their decision
    as to whether or not I was adequate as a female?
    
    this happened in the days before my lesson in the fact that some
    men *will* physically attack a woman in broad daylight with many
    witnesses, before I learned to be afraid.
    
    Lee

    
    
    I think that many people are missing the point: "Most of the "catcalls"
    are not of the complimentarily mode.  They are insults, lewd
    suggestions and offending proposals or statements about the woman
    who is being targeted.  A "wolf" whisle is of the more benign class
    of catcalls.
    
    Now if you are bother by my reference to "pop"ing the offender -
    think about this - There are a number of women (not in womannotes
    either) who have suggested that we carry cans of red spary paint
    and if someone assults us we spray their face with a big red NO.
    
    I think that the message coming from most women is that we don't
    enjoy it and that we will not be intimidated by actions such as
    catcalls, assult or rape any more.  If there is not legal recourse
    for us then we will openly voice our objections whenever the
    opportunity arises.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			Ah yes women should learn to relax and enjoy
    			the unwanted, abusive attentions of others.
    

    Re: .69
    
    >the women who said they liked to be harrassed on the streets
    
    Harassment is in the eye of the beholder.  As has been pointed out,
    there are different intensities involved.  A wolf whistle or a cheerful
    "Lookin' good" are fairly mild.  If you had dressed up or worked hard
    to get in shape, for your own self-image more than anyone's opinion,
    those comments might certainly be appreciated as positive feedback.
    
    It might be easier for the male readers to understand this if it
    were described in non-sexist terms.  The more intense catcalling
    is downright rude.  Women who are catcalled get hit by a surprise
    rudeness attack, which is unsettling, to say the least.  It's like
    someone sitting next to you on the bus suddenly saying, "Hey, your
    tie sucks and your haircut is dorky!"  Where'd that come from?
    
    >Actually, the question is backwards, it should read..."most women
    >despise catcalls, so what's wrong with the women who like them..."
    
    Ah.  Women shouldn't conform to the old male/patriarchical standards;
    they should conform to the new female/feminist standards.  Phooey.

    while I've never found catcalling to be personally humiliating, I have
    invariably found it to be a scary experience.
    
    The only experience I've ever had which was even marginally positive
    was during an extended assignment in Washington, DC.  Every morning and
    evening on my way to/from the Metro stop, I passed by several construction
    sites to the accompaniment of lewd suggestions and what I can only
    describe as bodily-function-noises.  For a week, I just hurried
    on; but I noticed that not all women passing got the same treatment.
    Finally, Friday morning I stopped dead, turned to face the guys
    and firmly indicated that I didn't like it, and walked on.  That
    evening on my walk back, a gentleman in a hard-hat was waiting for
    me on the sidewalk. [I was scared wit-less]  He apologised for any
    offense [and seemed quite sincere about it too] and went on to explain
    that the guys never called out to the hookers so I really should
    feel flattered as I was being acknowledged as I woman of high moral
    fibre.
    
    Now isn't _that_ special...
    
    Well, I felt _somewhat_ better, thanked him for his concern, and
    told him that it was offensive nonetheless.  Monday morning, the
    self-same foreman yells out, "Hey! Lady!" and when I turned to face
    him, the guys saluted.  Cute. For the next two weeks someone always
    yelled out, "Don't work too hard" or "Enjoy your dinner" or something,
    which was not what I had in mind, but at least I felt like a human
    being.  That is until I began to feel like their mascot...sigh.
    
    Note of caution:  Confrontation is not a method I would recommend
    highly.  [In this case, I felt that the presence of a 12ft. chain-link
    fence afforded me some safety.]
    
      Ann

There's something about this topic that's puzzling me. And I'm going to try to 
organize it as best as I can. And yes, I expect to get flamed, but I
    had to try to express this.

Recently in Blacknotes, there was a note about black males and some of the 
things that they do. Catcalling was one of them, though, not stated. And after 
thinking about it, I recognized it as something that I was very used to and 
kind of missed. Call it a different socialization perhaps, but I am accustomed 
to male catcalling (of the MILD variety) I know how to diffuse it in most 
instances, and I recognize it as a part of my culture. I am certainly no 
Phyllis Schafely, but I know when a man is trying to get attention. And in 
certain situations, its more a childish act than a threatening one; and I treat 
it as such.

The reactions of some of the women who have written in SEEM to indicate that 
they don't personally know any men who do this. So, it must be extremely alien 
to them, and that would add to the element of fear. I've also noticed though, 
that if it was Robert Redford or some cute, KNOWN entity, though he would be 
considered an ass, the idea of FEAR is not there. So, I have to wonder, is part
of the fear from the fact that the male is unknown. Could some of it be in the 
very caricature of the man? Because he is a construction worker, or black, or 
poor, i.e., not a part of your every day environment?

Before people flame me, I hope you will ask yourself, if a group of well-dressed
businessmen made catcalls, would your first thought be one of fear, or disgust 
and annoyance?

Now, IF you said disgust and annoyance, then ask yourself the following, if a 
female friend of yours made a very lewd catcall, purposefully imitating a man, 
because you looked "simply smashing", would you laugh?

The reason that I'm asking is because I sense that the element of the unknown 
causes a lot more damage to the psyche than the actual comments. In some ways, 
the comments may be confirming a latent fear about the individuals.

And this concerns me. I did not want to be misunderstood, what I was trying to 
explain was that catcalls are a form of communication, albeit a childish one, 
and that perhaps the fear that is felt comes more from an assumption about the 
communicator. Because I grew up with this, it did not scare me. Because it was 
not unknown. And most women I know who grew up in cities are also not scared of 
this phenomenon.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there is probably some habit that 
white middle-class males have which is as dumb, stupid and repulsive as 
catcalls. But because white middle-class males are not unknown to the average 
womannoter, there is probably no element of fear. In fact, as an example, I 
remember how the guys at college used to get HORRIBLY drunk. Nothing scares me 
more than a bunch of drunk white frat jocks. But I'll bet that there are a lot 
of women in this conference who are not SCARED by this. Disgusted and annoyed, 
but not scared. 

I'm not organizing my thoughts as well as I might, but the basic question that 
I have is whether it is the catcall that is so frightening, or the person who 
does it.

And the other thought: since the average middle-class white college woman does 
not really make an effort to curb the drunken lewdness of her male counterpart, 
and some actually encourage his antics, is it really so surprising that males 
with a slightly different culture are not discouraged from catcalls, and that 
some women actually encourage it?

I guess what's bugging me is that there are some cultural differences involved 
with the subject of catcalls, and they aren't being addressed.

And if I went any further with this, it would be to address why date rape 
happens, and whether it is because we make certain assumptions about what a 
rapist looks like, or who he is? And have to find out that we were wrong, after 
we let down our guard.

Or the question that really bugs me, are we letting the media define the image 
of the man who frightens us? Are white middle-class men non-threatening, but 
poor and/or working-class and/or black men are? 

    
    
 
    re: .74
    
    Both behavior is scary.  I did not grow up in the city but all of
    my life I have heard "catcalls" and the only thing I get communicated
    to me by them is the fact that I am always on show of them and I
    had better never forget it.  This is not a black vs white issue
    most of the offenders that I have seen are white, the worst part
    is that some of them are related to me.  This is not fear of the
    unknown it is fear of the known.  Knowing and being remined of what
    can be done to you no matter who you are or what you think of yourself.
    This is the scary part - that no one, no one at all will protect
    you, believe you no matter what scars you have to show.
    
    This is purely an act of "power" over someone.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			There I finally said the "p" word.
    

   
    re: 74
     
    I don't like catcalls from ANY man.  I don't care if the man is
    black, white or purple, wearing construction boots or wing tips,
    I think it is a form of harrassment and I find it threatening.
    
    As for the movie stars that were mentioned in your note and others
    concerning this topic, they are also considered strangers in my
    books.  Who is to say that Robert Redford or Tom Cruise or any of
    the other actors are less capable of rape just because they're movie
    stars?  Maybe it would be riskier if they were to rape someone because
    they are easily identified, but they aren't exempt from being capable
    of rape.  Movie stars are strangers.  The parts they play in the
    movies that mainstream America sees are not their personalities,
    they are just a part they're playing.  I have no idea who these
    people really are.
    
    As for your question about a female friend making a catcall type
    comment at me, well, that's never happened so I don't know how I
    feel about it.  I'm not sure what purpose a discussion of this scenario
    has to do with this topic. I might think it strange, the idea of mimicking
    what I consider a very ugly form of male behaviour, but then, in
    context of this being someone I know, I doubt it would carry the
    threat that comments like these do when coming from a stranger.  And
    although I might not find the comment threatening coming from someone
    I know, I would still find in offensive.
    
    I suppose that is part of the crucial difference, is the person
    known or unknown.  I think there are ways for us to communicate
    the message of "I find you attractive" without the use of catcalls.
    
                                            

       RE: .74

       I believe some of your assertions are correct. I do fear a group
       of (SIC) lower class males more than a group of males who look
       like the guys I grew up with. I also worked in an emergency room
       for years and quite frankly most of the battered/dead people that
       came through were attacked by those lower class males. The upper
       class is more prone to rob you blind through embezzelment and
       contract fraud than to beat you up on the street. They just
       choose a different way to destroy their victims.

       Most of the violence on the street is done by young males. Spend
       some time in the ER if you don't believe this. Of course there
       are political and sociolgical reasons for the way these people
       are kept down in the streets and I believe the system needs to be
       changed. But on a day to day basis of trying to stay alive it's
       foolish to pretend these situations (which can start with
       catcalls) don't mean potential danger. I've been out on the
       street for brief periods in my life and it's dangerous out there
       and not just because I had a protected middle class background. I
       believe poor women are more often the victims of rape and poor
       men the victims of murder than their middle class counterparts so
       just being familiar with what happens is no guarentee that you
       will be safe. liesl

    
    1. I agree with Peggy; in many, if not most instances, such anonymous
       cat-calling is a matter of power. As previously mentioned, the
       woman has few options as to her outer actions - no matter what
       she does, they've "gotten" her.
    
    2. Cat-calling is not very different, whether done by a group of
       "construction-types" on the street, or by a group of "wing-tip"
       types in a bar. It differs in volume, maybe, and maybe in verbiage,
       but the point, and the effect, are the same.
    
    3. What a woman's outer response is to such stuff cannot be taken
       as an indication of how she really feels about it. Since any
       woman who feels threatened would be a fool to show it, and since
       she may feel that ingratiating herself to these fine examples
       of decorous manhood will help, a "positive" reaction on her part
       cannot always be interpreted as how she feels inwardly.
    
    Dawn
    

    Re. 77 You have a point, Peggy, if I heard it from relatives and
    thought they were going to follow through, I'd be scared. I remember
    when I was young, some guy (friend of the family) had me sit on
    his lap and said my hair was so pretty he was going to cut it off
    and take it home. Scared me half to death. Then he asked my parents
    if he could keep me. I nearly died. And definitely cried my eyes
    out. (BTW, you said both behavior is scary. Do you mean both catcalls
    and drunk frat jocks?)                      
    
    Ms. Ervin, I hope that you don't misunderstand. I'm not questioning
    the offensiveness of catcalls, I'm wondering if its always scary.
    And if the fear has less to do with what is said than who says it.
    
    And Liesl, is it really true that victims are typically poor, or
    that we SEE the poor victims, perhaps because the well-to-do cover
    their bruises with make-up, hide their battered children or keep
    secret the date rapes they experience? I think as a society we cover
    for the middle-class white male. There are many things we let him
    get away with, and we down-play his crimes. We don't cover for the
    working-class male. And I wonder if it colors how we see him, and accounts
    for either a.) a greater fear of him or b.) more tolerance for his
    middle-class counterpart.    
                      
    But then, I don't get heckled/catcalls from white middle-class men. 
    They do other things that I don't like... So maybe I'm barking up
    the wrong tree.

    Re: .80
    
    >in many, if not most instances, such anonymous cat-calling is a
    >matter of power.
    
    Yeah, but I'm not convinced power over women is the primary concern.
    I see it as a form of chest-thumping, showing off to one's peers.
    Getting a stranger to react to you is one way of demonstrating that
    *you* can make things happen.  Getting a stranger to react favorably
    to you makes you one hell of a great guy.
    
    >As previously mentioned, the woman has few options as to her outer
    >actions - no matter what she does, they've "gotten" her.
    
    As I recall, Ms. Manners recommends responding to rudeness by ignoring
    it.  Has the added advantage of taking away their fun, poor things.
    
    >It differs in volume, maybe, and maybe in verbiage, but the point,
    >and the effect, are the same.
    
    The point, perhaps, but demonstrably not the effect, as shown by
    the various reactions of women who've replied here.

    When in what I consider to be a "safe" situation, I
    generallly find a catcall to be either complimentary (from
    someone I know, done with taste) or amusing (as when done by
    a teenage boy driving down my street--it was 10am on a
    Saturday and there were plenty of people out, so I felt quite
    safe).  My usual response is a fleeting grin and I continue
    about my business.  In less "safe" situations I ignore them,
    acting as though I didn't hear them, or like I didn't
    understand what they said and assumed it had nothing to do
    with me, and continue about my business.  Seems to work.

re .74

    Thanks for your note.  It's given me something to think on,
    and I suspect there's some truth to it.

    -- Linda

    
<    And Liesl, is it really true that victims are typically poor, or
<    that we SEE the poor victims, perhaps because the well-to-do cover
<    their bruises with make-up, hide their battered children or keep
<    secret the date rapes they experience? I think as a society we cover
<    for the middle-class white male. There are many things we let him
<    get away with, and we down-play his crimes. We don't cover for the
<    working-class male. And I wonder if it colors how we see him, and accounts
<    for either a.) a greater fear of him or b.) more tolerance for his
<    middle-class counterpart.    
                      

       Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that those things don't happen
       behind the subburban walls. They most deffinately do. Now here
       I'm getting on shaky ground cause I can't back this up but I'm
       sure that I read that a larger percentage of the poor are victims
       of crimes (including but not limited to, rape and murder) than
       the richer persons. I find myself starting to have trouble with
       the words "upper" and "lower" class. They seem to imply some
       standard of goodness and badness that I do not intend. I mean the
       rich vs the poor. liesl

    Is there such a thing as a "friendly" catacall?  For example,  would
    anyone be offended if your Husband, or Boyfriend (Wife or grilfriend)
    whistled at you if you were looking extreamly smashing.  This is
    a mild form of catcalling.  Most of the replys so far have delt
    with strangers doing the calling.   What about a close friend of
    the opposite sex?   In a mild flirting sort of way,  I have recieved
    and given whistles and lines like "Hey! Sexy" or "Wow!" to close
    friends and both parties ended up smiling.  A whistle by a friend
    I read as "WOW! you look too good for words!".  It makes me feel
    good.  I do agree that catcalls, when done in a threatening way,
    are not only rude but against the law.  One last question... What
    constitutes a Catcall?  Does it have to be a lewd remark or jesture,
    or can it be as innocent as the dropping of the jaw or raising of
    the eyebrows?  (Sorry that was two questions.....:-))

    Catcalls can be very scary depending on who they are coming from
    and where you are.  I'm more worried about young women (girls) not
    knowing how to react to this type of harassment.  I remember as
    a young girl getting catcalls while walking down the road alone,
    and ignoring them because I was afraid.  I also remember walking
    with one particular friend who use to wave and call to them and
    say to me "Look they think I'M attractive!"  And then there was
    the one time I was just plain stupid.  I was out on my sailboat
    in the middle of our lake with my cousin 4 years my junior.  We
    sailed by this one particular beach and a group of "older men"
    (probably in their late teens and early twenties but to us they
    were older) who started whistling and making rude remarks.  The
    first time by we were smart and ignored them - on the way back they
    did the same thing and I flipped them the bird.  That was it!  They started
    asking if that was an invitation and started trying to swim out
    to the boat to catch us.  We both panicked but managed to get away.
    My poor younger cousin was scared out of our skin.  Would they have
    done anything had they caught up to us?  Who knows but I learned
    my lesson and it certainly makes my blood boil just thinking about
    it!
    
    Suzanne

    in re .85
    yes, there are 'friendly' catcalls, and I think that is part
    of the way we are diverging here..
    
    many women, including myself, have written that they like 
    compliments from men that they know or even from strangers in
    a safe environment. I don't think that there are many women
    who seriously enjoy rude, sexual comments shouted by strangers,
    (which is what I think those on the negative side are talking
    about), in between, are those women who are flattered by teasing
    or complimentary remarks by strangers in moderately/relatively
    safe environments..this middle ground varies by the age, marital
    status, education, sexual orientation, etc etc of the particuarl
    woman.
    
    Bonnie

We know all you (us) wonderful guys out there do not have bad intentions.
But instead of being so defensive about such matters as "CATCALLS" why
don't you look at the big picture, instead of at yourselves.

We know that "Very Few" incidents of "catcalling" will lead to violence,
and that "You" personally  would never have such intentions, but I
think a person would be crazy not to be suspicious of any such attention
given to oneself from a stranger or group of strangers.  The fact that
even ONE such case has occurred should warrant such suspicion.  We as
well meaning people should be sensitive to this and thus not participate 
in behavior such as catcalling, regardless of OUR "GOOD" intentions.

About eleven years ago, myself and a friend were verbally assaulted then
beaten senseless by a group of 10 guys.  To this day, any perceived
threat of violence brings back the fear and HATE that I felt after that
incident.

Let us not forget the "Fall River Bar" incident.  I know it's not the same
but it does illustrate the "Good Old Boy" group behavior.

Tonight I saw an Australian film called "Shame".  It brought back all the
HATE that I felt eleven years ago.  I would suggest you see it!

Although I do not appreciate some of the strong male dumping that sometimes
goes on in this notesfile, I understand where it comes from.  What bothers
me is the guys who react so strongly to this because they themselves are
such "wonderful" guys.  
    
    SAH

         RE:  .0

         The construction workers have the right to freedom of speech,
         and some of them apparently believe that freedom of speech
         includes catcalls.  Like everyone, the construction workers
         are entitled to their opinion.  I don't believe they care how
         anyone feels about catcalls, and I believe their attitude
         mirrors our society's don't-care attitude on some women's
         issues.

         I have never used catcalls myself nor have I knowingly
         associated with people who do.  I believe that each person
         has the right to free passage without abuse.  Catcalls *can*
         be a form of hostile behavior on a continuum of behavior
         that includes battery/rape/homicide.

         Dealing with catcalls depends on the situation.

         I ignore catcalls in a public setting where there is a
         balanced mix of men and women.

         In a public setting that is not so safe (at night, isolated
         location, predominantly male environment) I consider the
         context.  How many of them, how close are they, do they
         appear predisposed to aggressive behavior.  In this case I
         will ignore the remark and acknowledge their presence with
         direct eye contact.  This is hard.  For me it can bring up
         all my fears of being a victim at the hands of men.  I want
         to look them in the eye with an expression that conveys "I
         know you're there.  I know you can kill me but you cannot
         scare me."  I won't turn my back on them until I'm safely
         beyond their reach. This kind of encounter always gets the
         adrelenin flowing and I don't enjoy being in it.  So I stay
         away from unsafe places to the best of my ability.  

         It may not happen *every* time, but I believe any encounter
         *can* turn from verbal assault to battery/rape/homicide very
         quickly.  I cannot predict in advance how the situation will
         break.  Violent criminals do not respect your rights, they
         view you as a consumable resource, and they will deal with
         you as they please (don't take their behavior personally). 
         Being mentally prepared is essential to increasing your
         chances for survival when the situation turns bad.

    re .86, it is surprising to me how young many girls are when they
    start getting this attention from men.  (I always looked very young
    for my age.  When I was 16 I looked about 11.  So, I didn't start
    getting this kind of attention until I was around 19.)  But, my
    14 yr. old daughter is starting to get a lot of attention from men
    when we go places.  She gets whistled at a lot, and a lot of heads
    turn to look.  I don't mind the looking.  I figure we all have a
    right to look, but not to intrude ourselves further.  One day awhile
    ago she said, "Mum, *why* do so many guys whistle at me?  It gets
    embarrassing!  What am I supposed to do?"  I told her to just ignore
    it and hope they don't bother her further.  Usually the guys are
    in their 20's, too old for her date if they were really interested.
     And, of course, too young for me, so we wind up walking along the
    street having guys that are too old for her and too young for me
    whistling and making catcalls!!  It really is embarrassing.
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .74
    
    Well said (despite your concerns to the contrary).  I think your
    reply helps clarify something that is, I hope, apparent to all
    by now.  Catcalls (and most forms of human behavior) are different
    things to different people and often, one's cultural background
    makes all the difference in the world in one's perception of
    "reality".  This is one reason why attaching legal sanctions
    to behaviors can be a very difficult problem.  Such sanctions,
    by definition, have no room for different perceptions of reality;
    in general, legality is a binary - either behavior "X" is legal
    or it isn't.  Where there is uncertainty about the legality
    of a behavior, it usually results from our inability to finitely
    codify the myriad varieties of human "reality".
    
    And are there any among us who believe that "reality" is *never*
    a matter of point view?  All in all, I think .74 serves as an
    effective eye-openner.
    
    Steve
    

    Two comments :
    
    1. I've always been fat, so the only cat calls I've ever gotten
       (in school) were of the "hey, slim!" type. I do not like cat
       calls of any type.
    
    2. (SET FLAME ON WICKED HIGH) Why are so many people bashing 
       construction workers ? A blue collar job does not make a 
       person an obnoxios jerk. Like any field, yes, there are 
       jerks. BUT THE CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY DOES NOT HAVE THE 
       EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS ON THIS BEHAVIOR !!!
                              
    
    Dee
    

    
    Chuckle, chuckle . . .
    
    I installed a new disk in my GPX yesterday, and it is making a 
    very distinctive noise now.  I am wondering if I should be offended?
    
    The noise is something like
    
    whew-wheet . . . wheet-whew
    
    
    I think the response to this note got "its" attention!
    
    Sharon
    

    re: 56.
    
    Sorry, but under the laws of Massachusetts, this is not true, which
    is why so many wives with restraining orders on their husbands can't
    get any help from the police if their husbands threaten to come
    in the future and harm them.  
    
    As a paralegal student at night school, I have to take many legal
    courses - of the few that I've taken already one I just finished
    a week ago was Litigation.  My teacher is an Assistant DA out of
    Woburn - and spent many hours telling us the Mass. law on Assault
    and Battery.  What I have stated above is one of the laws we had
    to learn.
    
    Donalea
    

    I would like to add an addendum to a note that I put in a few days
    ago, note .69.  Having received some feedback as to the content,
    and having gone back over it myself a number of times, I realize
    there are some statements that could easily be viewed as an attack
    on women in this note file.  That was not my intention.
    
    What came out in that note was a manifestation of the frustration
    I was feeling for several reasons: 1. as a society we teach our
    sons to engage in catcalls and we teach our daughters to feel that
    this is o.k. (a compliment) or something to be tolerated (I still
    think we need to find better ways to tell each other that there
    is an attraction happening); 2. that some of the men in the this
    file have used the comments of 'catcalls flatter me' to twist it
    into believing that it's o.k. to do it and that it's never should
    be considered a threat and that women who are threatened are deficient
    in some way; and 3. because of the number of men who felt the need
    to invalidate women's feelings and experiences.
    
    By not cooling off a bit myself, I ended up doing the exact thing,
    invalidating other women's feelings and experiences.  To the women
    who felt this as a result of my note, I apologize.
    
    Regards,
    
    Laura
    

    Catcalls imply that the "caller" sees women as objects/things. 
    Since a human person consists of more than his/her physical appearance,
    catcalls are degrading in that they are some kind of response to
    one's physical appearance only.  
    
    As for those recipients who find catcalls flattering -- this could
    be an indication of how they perceive themselves, i.e., in terms
    of their physical appearance.
    
    What can be done about it when it occurs?  Most of us are offended
    and ignore it when it occurs on the street, or in public.  When
    it occurs in the workplace, we have the right and the obligation
    to make sure it stops.  
    
    As long as our society equates human value with physical appearance,
    "woman as object" will continue to exist.  Just tune into TV at
    any time to observe the continuing objectification of women.  They
    are "still killing us softly".
    

    When I was looking for a good analogy, I came up with a possible
    'catcalls at men' scenario:  prostitutes approaching or calling
    out to men as they pass.  Especially if a number of them get into
    the act, calling after him as he leaves, or even more so if they
    gather around him and make comments, I can see where a man could
    get the same feelings of harassment and embarassment.  And of course,
    all the onlookers can say, "Aw, they're just having fun.  And you
    know he's enjoying it, he probably thinks it's a big turn-on." 
    Not as common as construction workers, of course, but an interesting
    parallel.

    Chelsea,
    Interesting observation. I agree that that particular situation
    would probably lead men to feel embarrassed and humiliated. Do you
    think they'd also feel physically threatened?
    
    Liz

    Catcalls don't have to be sexual in nature to be threatening.
    I've been hooted at, followed and "picked at" by other males when
    I was younger (high school, mostly).  I'm still afraid of such
    behavior when walking through certain parts of the city.
    
    I can think of one example from a movie that I would find quite
    threatening.  In "Being There", Chance (Peter Sellers) is confused
    and asks a group of teenagers for help in finding something to eat.
    They are apparently members of some street gang, and as he leaves,
    they follow him, hooting, and picking at his shoulders, clothes,
    etc.  I can easily imagine women feeling similarly threatened by
    sexual or other harrassment akin to this.
    
    				Steve

    Re: .98
    
    >Do you think they'd also feel physically threatened?
    
    Possibly.  Most particularly if they're 'surrounded' and if the
    women are aggressive.  I suspect the biggest fear would be one of
    being robbed rather than beaten, but the sense of vulnerability
    would still be there.

    Well, I guess I'll be the one person who doesn't agree...
    
    I have worked REALLY hard in the last year to make myself look good...
    physically... Coming down from 250 pounds was not an easy thing
    to do...  I have gone from a size 28 to a size 11/12 (small/med
    depending on what it is now)...  I have worked hard with my beautician
    to make my hair just the right color to match my skin...  I've learned
    the tricks with makeup, so that it doesn't look like I have any
    on, but compliments my face...
    
    When I walk by a group of guys, and I hear a *yo baby*, or a whistle
    - IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD inside...  yeah, I know, inside I am still
    the same person, and those making the comments would have to know
    the *real* me to know me... but still  after ALL the hard work (and
    I'm not done yet!!), its nice to hear the catcalls...
    
    Just a 6 cents worth...

    re: the men's motivations
    
    I'd be suprised to hear that cat-calling had anything whatsoever
    to do with wanting to have sex.  After I got really sick of being
    approached in my conservative dress and walk, I got angry and
    belligerent.  I started to dress in a leather mini, fishnet, spike
    heels and a spike collar - typical "whore" costume.  Suddenly, men
    didn't even let me know they were _looking_, much less hoot and
    holler.  The strong impression _I_ got was that once faced with
    a woman who looked like she might take them up on their "suggestions"
    they suddenly chickened out.  
    
    Lee

    size 28 to 11/12?
    
    YAY FOR YOU, YOU BUSY KLEINBERGER YOU!
    
    THAT is a MAJOR accomplishment!
    
    -Jody

    I find the comments around whores/prostitutes (or women dressed
    in a way so as to suggest they are) being more threatening to men
    to be very interesting.
    
    If (as I believe) the catcalling is a method of showing their power
    over women, it makes perfect sense that they would back down when
    confronted by prostitutes - the only group of women who can have
    the power over them which they (XX's) want to/believe they should/
    want their buddies to think they/ ..... have over *women*.
    
    --DE
    

    re .103
    
    They were looking the day before [quite a bit more than looking,
    much to my eternal dismay].  Only thing that changed was my
    dress which went from conservative (loose slacks, loose blouse,
    flats, no make-up) to what I described in .103.  Perhaps they simply
    didn't find it attractive, but I think Dawn's explanation is more
    accurate: if they are looking for a 100% safe way to demonstrate
    their omnipotence, they would be less than likely to select a woman
    who might in fact put that [omni-]potence to a real test.
    
    It was a very interesting thing to see, and a perfect outlet for
    my hosility.  Furthermore, it made me feel _safe_ if I had to walk
    somewhere - not a single overt sign of unwanted attention, a real
    positive change.
    
    Lee

    Arpad,
    
    Maybe Dawn's and Lee's notes are subtle, or maybe I'm misunderstanding
    them. But my interpretation is that this "power play" under discussion
    has nothing to do with sexual prowess; it is merely expressed in a
    sexual way. As I understand it, the power referred to is political.
    
    Liz 

	The catcall incidents remind me of my old high
	school days. Our shouts were meant to be derisive. We would
	primarily shout out to those whom we considered snobbish or stuckup.
	Anyway it seems to be an action of those not grown up in some
	way.

	A few years ago in a DEC field office, several of the women in
	the office stood around the entrance way. As the men walked
	in a number would be shouted out. It was soon  embarrassing to
	hear "3", "10", "7" etc. Needless to say the women had a ball.
 
	

       RE: a few notes back about prositutes,sex and power

       It occurs to me that (aside from the threat of disease) that
       prostitutes may be threatening to men because they have ample
       sexual experience to compare them to others. I have heard the
       argument put forth that a lot of the desire a man has for a woman
       to be a virgin is that she will have nothing to compare his
       (please pardon the expression) "performance" with. However, to
       say that prostitutes have *power* is really a mistake. They are
       beat up and abused daily by both their 'johns and pimps' and
       frequently have drug habits.

       As to the idea that a man may feel physically threatened by a
       group of women, well, it only takes one man to make a woman feel
       threatened. For the most part they are bigger and stronger than
       us and even the one you love may turn on you in anger, god knows
       what a group of strangers might do. liesl

Catcalls are very much matter of calling attention to a women's
sexuality.  Haven't we been hearing over and over how men just want to
express their "attraction" and "appreciation" of our sexual
desirability (or lack thereof?)

Men often use sexuality as a means of expressing power -- that's part of what 
this catcalling phenomenon is all about.  By virtue of his sex, a man 
has political power over women. Our culture identifies the female role 
in sex with one of submission and powerlessness, and the male role with 
dominance and power.  These roles extend far beyond the mere facts of 
biological reproduction.  The fact that we use such a term as "potency" 
[power] to mean male sexual performance is rather telling, isn't it?

By calling attention to a woman's sexuality against her will, a man can
emphasize the fact that she is vulnerable to him.  He has the power to
force her into a position of submission and this power is based on sex
in a very fundamental way.  Men who do not have much power with regard
to other men can always feel comforted that they have power over women,
and often those who are most insecure about their power status with
other men may be the ones who most need to emphasize this. 

Women do not have to be victims, of course, and I do not mean to suggest 
that female sexuality inevitably equates to submission and victimization.  
However, our gender role training does its very best to make everyone 
believe this and act accordingly.  Sexual acts between men and women 
do not necessarily have to be interpreted as power dialogs between
dominators and submitters, but patriarchy has assigned those kinds of 
semiotics to them.  The phenomenal degree of sexual violence directed at
women in our culture (rape, childhood incest and sexual abuse) indicates
that sex has definitely been exploited as a tool for dominating women.
The violation of self that many women feel when verbally assaulted by
catcalls and the violation that women experience as the targets of 
sexual violence are varying degrees of the same thing.

    re .112, Catherine
    **EXACTLY**
    
    re .108, Arpad
    
    The Author's name is Lee, thank you, and her hostility is not merely
    "apparent" but also explicitely stated and perfectly well justified.
    I find myself more than a little bit hostile when _my_ walk in a
    _perfectly_normal_ part of the city is _intruded_upon_ by strangers
    proclaiming their desire to do violently sexual things to me.
    
    Saying that I should not treat such slime as objects is like telling
    a boxer he can't hit below the waist if someone's trying to mug
    him.
    
    Lee

    While I understand your anger, I'm a little troubled by some
    of what you say, Lee.  The part that troubles me is the apparent
    blanket interpretation (operative word = apparent) that *all*
    catcalling is a proclamation ". . .to do violently sexual 
    things. . ."  I readily accept that such intents lie behind much 
    of the behavior (have, in fact, seen first hand what such intents 
    can lead to).  But, as others have already indicated, there are
    sometimes cultural overtones that reflect a different intent, one
    which is significantly less aggressive.
    
    Also, the Lee T. I know is not a person given to reducing humans
    (no matter how slimy) to objects; to so objectify the human being
    is that most critical step necessary towards the justification
    of annihilation.  Perhaps such destruction will utimitely be
    necessary and just, but to take that step based upon what one
    believes to be the other's thoughts and intents is a dangerous 
    one, indeed.  This is especially so when the "intent" may be
    interpreted differently in different cultural settings.  It's
    one thing to consider a person behaving in a slimy manner, another
    to reduce a person to only slime.  This doesn't sound like the Lee
    I've met. . .perhaps a tad hasty in (well-justified) anger?
                                                               
    Steve
    
    "perfectly_normal part of the city. . ."  
    
    For some of us, that's an oxymoron. . 

    Re: .108
    
    >Another references to male sexual prowess/ability/potency, or lack
    >thereof. Must this be reduced to genitalia?
    
    Why do you think that prowess/ability/potency = genitalia?
    
    I don't think that the various interpretations are valid for *all*
    cases, but I think many are valid for *some* cases.

    re .115 Steve
    
    First off, I firmly believe that _anyone_ is due forgiveness.  Not
    necessarily trust (that is earned), but forgiveness.  So no matter
    how angry I become, it is possible for someone to be forgiven. 
    
    I think that has a lot to do with my incapacity towards violence:
    violence can be so terribly _permanent_.  So while my contempt can
    tend towards scathing (quite - you should see what my poor brother
    put up with before I learned the rules of civilized interaction),
    even the slimiest of creatures is able to redeem him/herself in
    my eyes.
        
    Furthermore, one aspect of a person's behavior can be quite
    contemptible (such as a tendency towards posturing, to need to prove
    one's masculinity by verbally assaulting a stranger and giving her
    absolutely _no_ options in how to respond - all so one can show
    the guys one's a real man...), without rendering the person's character
    worthless.  I can despise, intensely despise, certain things about
    you and still love you.  I see this in _all_ my close relationships:
    friendships, family, lovers.
    
    Do you see the tie-in to your note?  I can explain further if it
    isn't apparent.
    
    
    The "bad" behavior is worthy of contempt.  As a stranger, I know
    little else about the person and have no reason to _want_ to know
    more.  And if I _seldom_ saw behavior such as catcalls, any single 
    incident would be meaningless., since the person will never be a part of
    my life.
    
    But I have seen this since the first day my body began to become
    that of a woman.  For the first few years, I saw it as both innocent
    compliments, and ignorant posturing intrusions.  Ten+ years later,
    I am sick of it, do _not_ need "compliments" from strangers thanks,
    and find it hard to ignore the _other_reasons_.
    
    Each time a guy yells hey babe from a truck, rates me a 9 on a canoing
    trip, propositions me 'cause he's drunk and feeling happy, offers
    me money, he has used me.  He has just proved his sexual prowess
    by expressing sexual interest in someone who has _no_ way of reacting
    and maintaining her integrity.
    
    Arpad questions how sexual this is.  Personally, I think it _all_
    stems from posturing over penis size and general sexual prowess
    - and I get that attitude from my dad who often beats me to the
    punch with the response "oh it's just another mine_is_bigger_than_
    _yours_is game".  But people question my interpretation, and are
    welcome to do so.  It'll just take a long time to convince me that
    I'm wrong, that's all (see my note on Macho posturing in womannotes
    v1 - we can revive that Topic in v2, if you like).
    
    Given that unless I dress as a bag lady (Holly's suggestion) or
    walk around with a grimace on my face (no fair!!), men will be making
    cat-calls at me.  What do I do?  Grin and enjoy it (gag...)?  Then I 
    accept my role as being here on earth for someone else's pleasure.  
    Be visibly insulted?  Then I accept that a total stranger, a NOBODY 
    to me, has been able to have a strong effect on me, to intrude on 
    _my_ life.   Ignore it?  Then I am living a lie, because he knows as 
    well as I do that I heard. Become violent?  Then I would be worse than he.
    
    One man hit me because I expressed my contempt.  That was in France,
    but I don't doubt that it could happen here.  So I no longer express
    my contempt when it happens, I accept the least of the evils, the
    least likely to erupt in _further_ intrusions on myself, and "ignore"
    it.
    
    And I feel helpless in that situation.  And every single man who
    makes a yell at me when I am powerless to respond serves to remind
    me of that.  Is it any wonder my reaction is so negative and strong?
    Without the repetition and the endless reminders of my true status
    in this world, cat-calls would range from meaningless to pleasant,
    and I could afford to be charitable.
    
    Lee

    Re: .118                                                         
    
    >Maybe it was an oversimplification of the continuing objectification
    >of men by feminists.
    
    Hmm, how did that go again?  "There goes the old paint brush again.
    Got us all with one swipe."  Yeah, that was it.

    re: .117 Lee

    Unless I've missed something, we're pretty much in agreement
    (. . .again :-D)  First, I'm in nearly complete agreement with
    your title:

                 -< Repeated Offenses Breed Extreme Contempt >-

    I say "nearly" because, in my view, depending on the intent,
    I feel that *initial* offenses are worthy of extreme contempt.  
    In any case, I have no problem with viewing certain people with 
    extreme contempt; perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but to me, there's 
    a world of difference between that and viewing a sentient being 
    as an object.  To do the latter is to allow me to exterminate 
    the object without pangs of conscience - it was only an object
    (and the *apparent* lack of that distinction in your earlier reply
    was my only discomfort).
    
    "Each time a guy yells hey babe from a truck, rates me a 9 on a canoing
    trip, propositions me 'cause he's drunk and feeling happy, offers
    me money, he has used me."  

    Perhaps, and this is one example of how point of view has everything
    to do with truth and reality.  I believe that the, uh, individual has
    *tried* to use you and you feel used.  I say this because I honestly 
    don't feel ". . .He has just proved his sexual prowess. . ."  In my
    opinion, he's proven quite the reverse.  Even if, by way of different
    cultural norms, a male has learned that a catcall/whistle is a "cute"
    way of saying "hello" (and, consequently, has no further intent, 
    violent of otherwise), it's still, in my book, pretty dimwitted and/or
    rude behavior:  dimwitted because one would have to have to be pretty
    near comatose not to have heard that lot's of women don't want to
    hear this crap any more, and rude because I was brought up to believe
    that to address any stranger in such a manner is rude.  Further,
    I've come to believe that the need to prove sexual prowess is
    indicative of sexual dysfunction to begin with.

    And yes, I may be guilty here of "culture-centrism" (I'm sure there 
    must be a word. . .as Donahue would say, help me out here. . .); if
    such is the case, so be it.

    ". . .by expressing sexual interest in someone who has _no_ way of 
    reacting and maintaining her integrity."

    While I understand your fear, I truly don't believe it's *your*
    integrity that's been compromised, Lee.  This is not to imply
    that there is no danger; from some sides of the tracks, ours is
    a more dangerous world than any in history.  

    For those men who may have difficulty understanding the feeling
    of danger that can be implicit in a catcall, try picturing it this
    way:  you're walking along the hallways.  You round the corner and
    there are five *big* guys with leering looks on their faces.  As
    you walk by, they start making comments on how sweet you look
    and what a good time they could give you.  They're all of different
    a different ethnic background than you.  You're in prison and there's
    no way out.  If it makes the imagery easier to picture, you're not
    a "criminal", but have been somehow wrongfully imprisoned.  The
    point is to close your eyes, imagine the scenario, and check out
    what you feel; frankly, if it isn't fear, I'd submit that there's
    something *seriously* amiss with your sense of survival.


    The last part of your note explores what then becomes the central
    issue:  confronted with the behavior, uncertain of it's intent but
    with more than enough evidence, personal and otherwise, to suspect
    harm, what do you do?  Since you and I have talked about this one
    off line, Lee, I trust that you know what I believe here.  And,
    in this public forum I'll simply say that I'm not generally an 
    advocate of violence.

    However, I strongly disagree with your suggestion that in the
    face of violence, your resorting to same would make you ". . .as
    bad as him."  When one commits an act of war on the person of
    another, it seems to me that the "rules" of society begin to
    crumble.  I would feel criminal only if I were to strike first,
    before the commission of that first overt act.  And, in a dangerous
    world, I'd be very watchful for that first overt act and I'd be
    prepared to act swiftly and decisively in the face of "clear and
    present" danger.  

    "And I feel helpless in that situation.  And every single man who
    makes a yell at me when I am powerless to respond serves to remind
    me of that.  Is it any wonder my reaction is so negative and strong?"

    Not in the least.  And, as you know, I feel it's entirely justified.
    Given your experiences, I would have long ago been sorely tempted
    to have taken a 12-guage repeating shotgun, "gone downtown and t.c.b."
    That you retain *any* sense of "charity" or "fairmindedness" is
    somewhat amazing and, to my way of thinking, a very strong testimonial
    to *your* strength of spirit.

    Steve
    

I find it noteworthy that men, in this discussion and elsewhere, 
frequently object very strenously to what they describe as women 
engaging in generalizations and stereotyping when discussing gender 
politics.  This is somewhat amusing, coming from the social group that 
has used these things more extensively than any other in the course of
maintaining their dominant position.  It's rather like the Czar deciding 
that violence is morally repugnant when the peasants revolt.  Of course 
several centuries of violence, brutality and enslavement can be wiped 
away by announcing that one is sorry, and one wants to save the peasants 
from stooping to the same level of immorality...  I know I appreciate 
this male sensitivity to saving my soul from the evils they know so well.

However, as ironic as this is, I do not think that what the women have 
been expressing when they say "men do x" is anything at all the same 
thing as stereotyping in the sense that it is being used when we are 
accused of it.  Generalization is a very necessary tool for human 
thought.  If I stuck my finger in an electric outlet as a child and got 
a shock, and stuck my finger in a different electric outlet and got a 
shock, I would probably not have a high probably of survival if I could 
not reason that very likely, ALL electric outlets are likely to give me 
shocks if I put my finger in them, even if I had never seen a particular 
electric outlet before.

These same powers of generalization are absolutely necessary if we are
to understand the workings of social systems.  If I view an incident of
rape as a purely individual and personal experience between two
completely random individuals who are behaving in an arbitrary manner, I
can make absolutely no conclusion about the nature of the society and
how it works from my knowledge of this incident. If, however, I notice
that 99.9% of the time the attacker is male and exhibits <xyz> behavior,
and 99.5% of the time the victim is female and exhibits <abc> behavior,
and that 30% of the females in a society have this experience, then
perhaps I can begin to draw a conclusion that this activity says
something about the society and perhaps plays a vital role in it. What
kinds of attitudes and behaviors are likely to give rise to or result
from this kind of activity?  What social structures are served by it? 
If I begin to draw some conclusions from it, who is threatened by my 
conclusions?  Who is likely to say that as soon as I state my 
conclusions I am "generalizing" and generalizing is always evil, no 
matter who does it?  Am I, perhaps, being told not to think about it who 
is hurting me and why they might be hurting me?  Now why would someone 
do that?

	Catcalls are to some women , if not most, insulting; or so
reading this string would suggest.  Just how insulting are catcalls
in the general scheme of things.

	Has life in all its brilliance been so sufficiently qualified,
quantified, understood that we now have the freedom from this wondrous
challenge to devote measurable energy to correcting the seeming minority
of males from committing the heinous crime of catcalling.

	I mean, we have corrected the problems of pollution.  And bigotry 
is no longer with us.  The aggression of nation against nation is behind
us (that was a toughy wasn't it).  There are no homeless people in our 
cities.  All of us who wish to are working at good jobs and earning
sufficient wages to maintain a relatively comfortable lifestyle.

	It's wonderful to be free of those problems and to have
the luxury of time to chase the catcallers.  I am certain we can correct
these ugly beasts.  We have managed to eliminate all other forms of
personal insult.  Why, with the exception of the few catcallers, we have
managed to center our collective energies and have made this a damned 
near perfect planet upon which to live.

	And now, if I type in a lot of smiley faces, the above could be
read as a joke.  No smiley faces.  Sarcasm may be the lowest from of wit
(don't recall the originator of those words) but sometimes it works.
I do have some compassion for people who are disturbed by catcalls but
as I look at the world around us I find catcalling as an issue of
major concern to be too trite.  Our schools are going to hell.  The 
cost to run our political institutions has all but reached the point
of taking precedence over the needs of the citizens.  Vast miles of
our oceans have become devoid of life.  Our supplies of potable
water are rapidly diminishing.  Our air is becoming increasingly
'unhealthful' (wonderful bit of newspeak 'unhealthful').  The
family unit, at least in the U.S., appears to be disappearing with
effects which are unknown but appear to be quite negative.  There
are shooting wars all around us - between rival gangs and rulers.
Children in our cities are dieing from stray bullets (what the hell
is a stray bullet, is that like a stray cat - unfortunate but
acceptable).

	Within our country - this great republic of the United States
of America - there is sexual, religious and racial bigotry of
such proportion as to cause deaths and worse.

	As strongly as I support equality I can't get very upset
with catcalling.  It is repulsive but mostly harmless.  It is
an example of ignorance but little else.

Douglas

    Oh, I see.  Our silly little complaints aren't important enough
    in your eyes for us to bring up in Womannotes.  Funny, though, that
    you should spend so much time writing a response about something that
    doesn't deserve your attention.                        
                                        

    Tell me, why do some men in this file have trouble with statements
    such as "Men make catcalls at women."?
    
    Do they feel that such statements are false?
    
    Do they misread the statement to see the word "all" before "men"?
    
    Does it never occur to them that on a planet with a population
    of five thousand million, ior in a country with a population of
    two hundred and fifty million that terms like "some" and "many"
    can refer to millions of people without referring to a large
    percentage of the populace?
    
    						Ann B.

re .123

    One question you asked of the general population was (sorry I
    didn't extract the exact words) our reaction to women who
    find catcalls acceptable or flattering.  As I recall many of
    the responses, they were worded something like "I don't like
    a catcall in a situation when I feel unsafe; in a safe
    situation it's acceptable or flattering."  Some women
    apparently don't feel unsafe when a man calls out a remark to
    her on the street, some do.  Should we tell a woman who feels
    uneasy alone on a city street because a man shouts a sexually
    explicit suggestion to her that she SHOULD NOT feel angry or
    afraid?  Should we tell a woman who grins when a stranger
    compliments her on her attractive figure that she SHOULD feel
    angry at his objectification of her, or afraid of him as a
    potential rapist?  If someone asks "why the big deal"
    shouldn't we explain some of the reasons why we think it's a
    big deal?

    I thought this topic was about how we feel about catcalls,
    not how we think other women ought to feel.

re .124

    Yes, there are lots of pressing problems.  Is it possible
    that catcalls are a seemingly harmless symptom of a serious
    societal problem?  By spending a little time asking how we
    feel about catcalls, and why, and when they're acceptable,
    and why some people do it, is it possible that we might learn
    a little more about our society and our relationship to it?
    If we learn a little more about something that seems like a
    problem, is it possible that we might also begin to think
    about ways of correcting the underlying problem(s)? Is it
    possible that I should worry about the problems that I have
    some personal interest in, and not feel guilty that I'm not
    donating time and energy to all the other problems in the
    world?  Should I let someone else tell me what *ought* to be
    #1 on *my* list of problems I'd like to investigate and help
    solve? 

    -- Linda

Catcalls are a symptom of the very attitude that has brought this world many
of the major problems we have to address.

1. - objectivify women as less then human - only bodies
2. - objectivify the earth as less then human - only dirt and water
3. - lack of concern for the effect on others - of course they love it
4. - lack of concern for the air we have to breathe - the sun will clean it
5. - no thought about the consequences of the action - hey it was only a joke
6. - "     "      "    "        "       "  "     "   - hey it was only cyanide

The problem is that women as representatives of "earthy" characteristics are
treated just a badly as the planet is.


The earth has been overworked and under paid for almost as long as women have
and it is time to stop the exploitation of both.  It is time for MEN to grow
up and take responsibility for their actions, to notice that there are people 
that have to live on the streets, that there is water that is not drinkable
and that women and the children they bare are not possessions that can be
put to the side when MEN have important things to talk about.

I identify with the planet I live on and all her many forms of life.  And I
believe if we could get all men to understand why some women do not like
catcalls we might also be able to get them to see that there is only one
planet EARTH and we must take care of her.

_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Whether there is life on other planets is
			mote if we kill all life on this one now.

			It is not strange that women will fight for
			the future of this planet - this is where
			our seeds are planted
 

    re .124,
    
    There are few things so unconvincing as the assertion by someone
    who is *not* affected by a problem that the problem is trivial,
    unimportant, or otherwise not worth consideration.
    
    The fact that someone could read through these notes and then assert
    that catcalls are basically minor in the grand scheme of things
    leaves me incredulous.
    
    	-Neil

    Re: .129 (Peggy)
    
> I identify with the planet I live on and all her many forms of life.  And I
> believe if we could get all men to understand why some women do not like
> catcalls we might also be able to get them to see that there is only one
> planet EARTH and we must take care of her.

    Wow - catcalls are destroying our planet.  Let's see now...
    
    Let me state up front so that there is no misunderstanding - I think
    catcalls are rude and uncouth, and you will NEVER catch me making
    them.  However...  you say that "if we could get all men to understand
    why some women do not like catcalls"...  This glosses over the point
    that some women DO like catcalls, and actually encourage them. 
    The men who are prone to such behavior, will, obviously, choose
    to dispense catcalls in the hopes of attracting the attention of
    those in the latter category.  As long as the ratio isn't so lopsided
    against them, the behavior will continue, and I think it's misguided
    to place the onus entirely on "men" for it.
    
    Yes, I can easily see how some women would be intimidated by catcalls
    (as I mentioned in an earlier reply), but catcalls are really just
    a human version of the "strutting" behavior seen in animals, and
    will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to eradicate.  You
    may convert one here and one there, but it will take a major social
    structure change to make a serious dent.  (Maybe if more women became
    construction workers, that would quickly settle things down...)
    
    				Steve
    

    Actually in the terms of behavioral psychology cat calls are
    so persistant because they are randomly reinforced. Randomly
    reiniforced behavior is very hard to extinguish in an experimental
    subject, and it appears to be similarly intrenched in real life
    situations.
    
    Bonnie

    re:.124
    
    One could as easily -- and as rightly -- say that one life lost
    is insignificant comapred to the thousands of lives lost across
    the face of the planet each day. But if that one life is someone
    close to you, it is not insignificant.
    
    --- jerry

    re: Note 155.124 AKOV13::Douglas WILLIAMS
    
    Douglas,
    
    By saying that it's trivial to discuss catcalls while there are
    so many problems on earth, you are, I believe, overlooking several 
    things:
    
    1) Most of the notes that have been entered up to now have shown
       that there is a problem, for some a big one, for others a 
       relatively small one. As long as there is a problem, it should
       be addressed, and that's it. Every little bit belongs to the
       larger picture. You can't, for example, ignore the fact that
       there is no pedestrian crossing in front of the village school
       just because the skies are so overcrowded with planes since the
       deregulation that one day soon there is going to be a major
       catastrophy... I could give you many similar analogies, but I
       am sure you can find quite a few near home by yourself, be it
       the space you are allocated in your office, or the sort of food
       your children get when they eat in the school cantine (after
       all, what does it matter compared to the problems of the WORLD)
    
    2) Life begins at home. By discussing and trying to solve the "small"
       problems, we do not refuse to consider the larger, universal
       problems, but rather we clarify what we expect from the world
       at large. "Respect" is a word that has appeared many times. If
       everybody respected everybody else (did I hear anyone say Utopia?)
       the world would be a better place to live in.
    
    3) As you seem extremely concerned by the problems of the world,
       have you thought about entering some notes, either here or in
       another notesfile (as we may want to keep this notesfile centered 
       on problems relating directly and immediately to women - Moderators,
       please let me know if I am treading on the wrong path) to 
       discuss these problems and what we, as individuals can do about
       them? I realise you may be doing so elsewhere already, but if
       you aren't, you may want to consider this option.
    
    Now, to lighter things:
    
    Quote: "I mean, we have corrected the problems of pollution" Unquote.
    
    WHAT? Thou jest, methinks! Or rather, I suppose you were a bit
    distracted when you wrote this line, as you go on to mention some
    of the problems related to pollution lower down in your note.
    Pollution, and the fight against it, is one of my hobby horses:
    but I try not to be blind to relatively "minor" problems" just because,
    to me, pollution IS the major problem on earth today.          
    
    From earth, with love,     Joana
                                                            

    	In response to a few of the more recent notes:
    
    	Never did I say catcalling is too trivial a subject to be addressed
    as a problem.  I did state it APPEARS too much energy is being consumed
    on this problem.
    
    	A woman having a problem with X does not make X more or less
    trivial.  ALL women having a problem with X does not make X more
    or less trivial.
    
    	A man having a problem with Y does not make Y more or less trivial.
     ALL men having a porblem wiht Y does not make Y more or less trivial.
    
    	As to the death of a single person in a world of billions of
    people being more or less important depending on the relationship
    a person has with the deceased; I agree but so what.
    
    Douglas

    RE: Douglas, Peggy
    
    I believe (as I think does Peggy) that the problem is the underlying
    attitude of "power over" and "control of" which has brought us the
    lack of respect for human beings that catcallers show.
    
    This same attitude of "power over" and "control of" has also brought
    us to the brink of destroying the planet (in several ways) and to
    the incredible lack of respect for education/teachers, The Law,
    and many other of our manmade institutions.
    
    --DE
    
    
     (I will not address
    here how much of that lack of respect is justified, or in which
    institutions, simply because I think that's another note)

Re: the discussion of whether "catcalls" are important.  Of course they're
important, but are they *as* important as equal pay, equal access to
political and economic power, the political decisions that give us
an expensive and large military industry and cheap and poor schools.

From the size of the discussion of the issue of catcalls, it is clear
that they affect many of the contributers, but if I were to use that
standard on other notes in this file, I might come away with a biased
view of the real importance of the issues involved.

Martin.

    RE:  .137
    
    I wouldn't always relate the size of the discussion to the magnitude of
    the effects on noters, and then use that information to base a view
    of relative importance.
    
    For me there are many issues which are important.  Catcalls aren't a
    big issue for me but they are an issue which I have some definite
    views that can be succiently expressed.  The nature of other issues
    such as equal access, education, employment, etc are far more complex,
    in my opinion.
    
    Nancy

    I strongly disagree with the notion that in shouting out catcalls,
    that a man is demonstrating any sort of power over women.  I
    feel it to be exactly the opposite - he realizes that it is
    the woman who has the power to choose her sexual partner (I am
    speaking in generic terms here), and that he needs to do something
    to call attention to himself - if only to boost his image in the
    eyes of his fellow males.  As I said earlier, this is "strutting".
    
    Of course, things are never simple in the human world.  Because
    a few males won't take "no" for an answer, and because women don't
    have any way of identifying the true threats from the harmless
    strutters, many women take a naturally suspicious and fearful
    attitude towards catcallers.  Who can blame them?  But I think
    it's the wrong approach to view the behavior as a male wielding
    his power over the female.  I believe it is exactly the opposite.
    
    					Steve

    Steve,
    
    How about "A man is attempting to demonstrate his power over a
    woman."?
    
    (Pause)  Of course, catcalling (as explicitly described as being
    found offensive) is done by groups of men, so saying "a man" is
    also misleading.
    
    We have all noticed that anonymity and a group of one's fellows
    seem to be prerequisites for the behavior, haven't we?
    
    							Ann B.

    Re: .137
    
    Why should that be true here when it certainly isn't true in Soapbox?
    
    Re: .139
    
    >I strongly disagree with the notion that in shouting out catcalls,
    >that a man is demonstrating any sort of power over women.
    
    Well, I strongly disagree with your strong disagreement....  The
    trick is to get her to notice him and respond favorably.  He is
    trying to produce a specific behavior.  If he can cause that specific
    behavior, it will boost his image in the eyes of his fellow males.
    I think it's a secondary consideration, but it's still a matter
    of "look what I can do."

    Re: .140, .141
    
    To me, the fact that it is almost never 1:1 supports my contention
    that it is not a demonstration of male power.  The male who makes
    the catcall feels weak compared to the woman, and needs the support
    of his fellow males to "go up against" the woman.  The power is
    on the woman's side.
    
    Re: .142
    
    Well, you are agreeing with me as to why it happens, but you label
    it a display of power.  Instead, I say it is an attempt to attract
    attention.  The problem is that the women who feel threatened by
    the behavior look at it as an invasion, and thus a show of power,
    whereas the women who don't feel threatened revel in THEIR power
    over the helpless male.
    
    Can you agree that the balance of power depends on the attitude
    of the woman?
    
    				Steve

    Re: .143
    
    Perhaps we have different interpretations of power.
    
    >but you label it a display of power.  Instead, I say it is an attempt
    >to attract attention.
    
    I consider these to be much the same thing.  If you can cause someone
    to do something, you have power over them.  If you can cause a woman
    to smile and flirt, you have power over her.  If you can cause a
    woman to feel threatened or insecure, you have power over her. 
    If you can cause a woman to get angry, you have power over her.
    All games have power resting on both sides.  A woman can turn the
    tables.  Her response can provoke various reactions as well.  But
    since the man is the instigator of the game, he is definitely one
    who is attempting to display his power.  The success or failure
    of his attempt is not relevant to the nature of that attempt.  If
    the woman then takes control of the situation, she is also displaying
    power.  But that's an "if" I'm not willing to take for granted.

    Re: .144
    
    I see your point, but feel you are diluting the meaning of the word
    "power" by your definition.  If I ask you for the time and you
    tell me what time it is, did I just demonstrate my power over you?
    
    				Steve

    Has anyone noticed the difference in reply numbers to the same note
    in both MENNOTES and WOMENNOTES.  WOMEN: 145 (146 if you include
    me)  MEN: 44.  What I find simply amazing is that you don't even
    have to read the replys to see how catcalls effect either sex (I
    did read them all, seeing that I was the one who wanted to know
    the info. in the first place).  Just from the responces, it is 
    obvious that the catcalls mean alot more to the Women then the Men.
    (which is also stated in the replys themselves). 

    Re: .145
    
    >If I ask you for the time and you tell me what time it is, did I
    >just demonstrate my power over you?
    
    Not if it's not a part of a game (in the sense used by Transactional
    Analysis).  If the point is to find out the time and nothing more,
    then it's a simple question.  If the point is something else, like
    opening a conversation, then it starts heading into game-playing
    territory.  Games deal with power and control.  So it's usually
    not even close to absolute power; it's power nonetheless.  Unless
    the woman just doesn't hear or realize they're directed at her,
    the man has succeeded in at least making her notice him.  That can
    be (and has been) construed as an intrusion.  Intrusion is an act
    that connotes power.

    In this reply, I would like to start an analysis of possible
    solutions to The Catcall Problem.  (Mostly, it is in response
    to the idea that if a woman does a particular something differently
    then the problem will cease to have existed.)

    A woman is walking alone down the public street of a civilized
    community.  She is, if not actively happy, at least not filled with
    inner turmoil.  She walks past an area where a group of unknown men
    are standing.  They make obscene sexual comments about her and them
    loudly enough for her to hear them.  She is now unhappy, fearful,
    angry, and filled with inner turmoil.

    How could this have been prevented?

    1.  The men could have kept their comments undetectable by her.

    	I like this solution.  It is simple and just: Eliminate the
    	cause of the problem by the smallest adjustment possible.
    	The men may still look and talk, and if that is the source
    	of their pleasure, they have not been deprived of it.  If
    	(as seems to be the case) their pleasure derives from being
    	obscene and rude to a strange woman alone, then they are being
    	punished appropriately.  (My opinion may derive from my
    	Anglo-Puritan-etcetera upbringing, from which I learned that
    	you never draw attention to yourself, and you never, ever
    	inflict your emotional state on a stranger.)

    2.  The woman could have walked elsewhere.

    	I do not like this solution.  It assumes both that the woman
    	is always familiar with her path, and that there is always an
    	alternate route.  Neither is guaranteed to be true.  Further,
    	and most important, it limits the freedom of the blameless
    	party.  This is not morally acceptable.

    3.  The woman could have become deaf.

    	This is ridiculous.

    4.  The woman could have modified her behavior so that the incident
    	did not occur.

    	This sounds plausible at first glance.  However, since such
    	incidents cannot always be foreseen, it requires that the woman
    	be able to change her behavior instantaneously.  This sounds
    	doubtful.  Also, some have claimed that *any* reaction to such
    	an incident causes an escalation (or at least does not cause
    	a diminuation) of the distasteful behavior, and therefore, that
    	any behavior modification is counterproductive.  Let us assume
    	that that belief is wrong, and ask, What behavior would curtail
    	the incident?  There are descriptions of many behavior responses
    	in this note, but they only range from counter-productive to
    	ineffectual.  We must therefore conclude that either the women
    	in this file are stupid and `amechanos' or that behavior change
    	is not the answer.  (Note that Lee's (?) response of dressing like
    	a street prostitute requires advance knowledge and unusual
    	sartorial resources, and *still* limits the freedom of the
    	blameless party, which is still not morally acceptable.)

    5.  The woman could have modified her attitude so that the incident
    	did not offend her.

    	This sounds promising.  All it requires is that the woman should
    	no longer mind the *idea* of engaging in assorted sexual activity
    	with one or more strange men.  Hmmm.  This looks like it would
    	require herculean efforts of hypnosis, such as to the point of
    	brain-washing.  Or it would require the drastic restructuring of
    	our society -- like from the ground up.  The latter also sounds
    	like it would take several generations.  And I don't think I'd
    	like the results anyhow.

    6.  Sorry, I'm out of ideas.  Anyone else?

    							Ann B.

>    6.  Sorry, I'm out of ideas.  Anyone else?

A sub-machinegun comes to mind.

[thanx; I needed a laugh...]
	Mez

    I cheated on my 24 hour break, but I'm glad I did because Chelsea
    has just managed to articulate *exactly* my feelings about power,
    motivations, etc.
    
    Lee

    How about mind expansion training for women, in which a simple,
    properly-directed thought causes any material from which clothing
    is made to immediately disintegrate, selectively, on persons to
    whom these thoughts are directed?
    
    
    

    Re: .148 (Ann)
    
    Maybe it wasn't clear from my earlier replies, but I don't feel
    that women should have to do anything to get rid of catcalls.  It
    is the men who need to reform.  But how?  (Sub-machine guns are
    perhaps a trifle messy...)
    
    				Steve

    re: .151
    
    Nifty - also could be fun in leading to reverse catcalls.
    (f'rinstance, after the clothing has disintegrated, she sez,
    "You were gonna do *what*?  With *that* li'l thang?  Dream
    on, chump.")
    
    Steve
    

    re .153:
    
    A BBgun might cause them to go after you...If your going to attack,
    make it a good one.  (Maybe a BBgun with Mace backup  :-))
    
    

    re .148, 
    
    For completeness, I would like to suggest a possibility that you
    seem to have missed. 
    
>    5.  The woman could have modified her attitude so that the incident
>    	did not offend her.
>
>    	This sounds promising.  All it requires is that the woman should
>    	no longer mind the *idea* of engaging in assorted sexual activity
>    	with one or more strange men.  Hmmm.  This looks like it would
    
    It seems that a more promising variant would be for the woman to
    adjust her attitude so that she regards the behaviour of the
    cat-callers as so immature, so crude, so childish that it is not
    even worthy of consideration, much less worthy of taking offense at.
    That is, she should adjust her attitude to one of superiority, not
    inferiority. 
    
    Lest I be misunderstood, I agree with you entirely that the only
    reasonable choice is (1) -- that the men keep their suggestions to
    themselves.  However, I believe that by omitting this alternative --
    call it (5a) -- you have missed the opportunity to put the most
    charitable interpretation on the suggestion that there is something
    that women could do to alleviate the problem.
    
    I.e., for the demolition of straw horses to be convincing, the
    horses must be built of the very best straw.
    
    	-Neil

    Neil,
    
    (I see you continue to act as if there were an "r" in the middle of
    your name.  Good.)
    
    I'd agree, except that I've heard crude, immature children yelling
    vulgar insults at each other, and it *still* offended me.  There
    you have it:  I'm so snooty that I think that rudeness cannot be
    anything but offensive.
    
    							Ann B.

    Neil, 
    
    You beat me to the answer I was thinking about. Mentally assuming
    that these people are childish and immature and not worth bothering
    about has worked in similar situations for me. The problem behavior
    may still exist but it simply doesn't get to me. I am internally
    laughing at the person(s).
    
    Bonnie

    
    It seems to me that we need to be clear about the difference between:
    	- describing techniques a woman can use to deal with and possibly
          de-escalate unwanted advances from men 
    
    				and            
    
    	- Placing the blame for the event on the woman who doesn't properly
          use those techniques.
                
    I see a huge parallel between the issue of catcalls and the issue
    of rape.  To avoid being raped a woman can take precautions that
    range from never going out alone to learning self-defense.  But
    if a woman is raped, it makes me furious to hear people saying,
    "tsk, tsk, she never should have been in that neighborhood alone."
    Women may choose and may be able to find ways of dealing with verbal
    or sexual abuse from men, but if a woman is victimized by a man,
    it is he who is responsible for it.  I just want to make sure that
    we don't forget that.  Remember the judge in (Ohio?) who ruled that
    a little girl (she was under 10) brought an assault on herself
    because of the way she was dressed....  I see that kind of outrageous
    logic as being at the far end of a continuum that begins with things
    like:  if she'd just ignore it, it would go away...
    
    Justine

    RE: .159
    
    Thanks for the reminder - I agree.
    
    RE:.154
    
    No, No Steve! The key here is *subtlety*. 
    IF you pick the right guy to zap, you just keep walking calmly past.
    His buddies will take care of the rest.
    
    :-)
    
    --DE
    

    re: .160 (re: .154)
    
    How true!
    
    Steve (who's been characterised as being about as subtle as a
    a train wreck. . .)
    

    Re: .159
    
    >if she'd just ignore it, it would go away...
    
    The reason I like the tactic of ignoring them is that it pisses
    them off, and I have a vindictive streak.

    In this topic, there have been some replies from people who've indicated
    that they feel it's okay for men to admire women, so long as the
    men are not audible with their admiration.
    
    Some women have stated that they enjoy the verbal attentions of men,
    provided the men's comments are not lewd. 
    
    I've reprinted, below, a basenote from Version 1 of -WN- which seems
    to relate to the discussion of "catcalls". 
    
    However, if the moderators feel that this should be a separate topic,
    please move it.
    
    P.S., the first paragraph in the reprint was written when FWO topics
    were still "legal". :-)
    
      Alan
    

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
     
               <<< MOSAIC::$2$DJA6:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V1.NOTE;1 >>>
                   -< Original Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 637.0                 "To Have A Few Eyes On Us"                 39 replies
FDCV03::ROSS                                         86 lines   5-JAN-1988 11:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm posting this basenote with the request that only women respond within 
this note, please. If men wish to comment on this topic, please start a 
separate note for additional discussion or comments.
 
Last week, while I was on vacation and running out of things to watch
on cable, I pulled out a videotape of "Carly Simon in Concert: Coming 
Around Again", first aired by HBO last summer.

I happen to also have an audio cassette of this album, which, fortunately,
("fortunately" meaning that I didn't have to try and scribble the words as
I was listening) contains the words to all the songs.

I'm reprinting one song below, without permission, of course - someday,  
somewhere, somebody in Notes will actually reprint something *with* permission,
but I'm not going to blaze this uncharted territory. I'm not *that* much
of a radical :-)

There is a point that I'll get to eventually, but first, please read the
lyrics and, hopefully, enjoy the imagery and the feelings expressed by Ms.
Simon.    
    

            TWO HOT GIRLS (ON A HOT SUMMER NIGHT)

           (Carly Simon) (c) 1987 C'est Music (ASCAP)

     It happened last night, we were feeling adventurous
     We put on our heels and went out for a walk
     More for a drink and to have a few eyes on us
     Jenny and I slipped to town for some talk
     Me and Jenny, twinklin' like crystal and pennies
     Two hot girls on a hot summer night
     Looking for love

     "Look Jenny" I said, "It's Dwight, he just came in"
     I got excited, but Jenny was quick
     The kettle was on and it started up steamin'
     And I knew by her flirtin' she was up to her tricks
     Me and Jenny, twinklin' like crystal and pennies
     Two hot girls on a hot summer night
     Looking for love

     A song on the jukebox made me feel lonely
     The kettle boiled down and evaporated me
     But who was to notice 'cause Jenny was glowin'
     And Dwight was all over her like a honeybee
     Me and Jenny, twinklin' like crystal and pennies
     Two hot girls on a hot summer night
     Looking for love

     Maybe I shouldn't have worn such a long dress
     Maybe he thinks I'm too young or too old
     If only I hadn't been born with these sad eyes
     Perhaps I'm too shy, or too bold
     Me and Jenny, twinklin' like crystal and pennies
     Two hot girls on a hot summer night
     Looking for love

     "Thanks for introducing us" said Dwight, polite,
     And I waved goodnight
     I wondered why it wasn't me
     I guess it's just that the time's not right

     Two hot girls on a hot summer night


Okay, finally, the point:

From what's been written in this and other Conferences, as well as
statements made in the "outside" world, there are some women who are
not happy with men noticing them only *as women*. (I may be saying that
badly, but at this moment, I can't think of a better way to put it.)

I also am aware that there are some women who don't mind (encourage?) 
"having a few eyes" on them by men, but that's all they want at that
moment.

Then, there are some women who not only don't mind "having a few eyes" on 
them by men, but who would like to be approached by certain men.
 
The problems come when men are not sensitive to these various modes (moods) 
under which a woman may be operating.

Is there any best way for a man to know?

  Alan 
      

    
    re .163..
    
    I think there's a whole lot going on in that song, much of which
    would really be off topic here, but let me respond to the first
    thing that jumped out at me.  The story-teller is talking about
    a man that is known (Dwight) to both her and her friend.  So while
    the words "to have a few eyes on us" might imply something akin
    to admiration by strangers, the song isn't really talking about
    strangers at all.
    
    That raises another larger issue that I'd like to bring up.  When
    I was in highschool, I took a history course that spent a lot of
    time dealing with the issue of rape (in time of war), and we got
    talking about it, and one woman in the class, kind of giggled and
    said something like, "I don't know, sometimes I think the notion
    of rape is kind of exciting."  Now, I knew this woman pretty well,
    and I don't think (and I did challenge her on this, and she revised
    her statement..) that she really meant that she wanted to be raped.
    I think that what was exciting to her was the notion of "forbidden"
    sex with a mysterious stranger.  She was equating rape with sex
    and as such, she found it "exciting."  
    
    I was reminded of that when some women here mentioned that after years 
    of not feeling good about their bodies they might enjoy catcalls 
    (as a symbol of attention from men, as validation for their newly
    attained and believed-in attractiveness.)  When I thought about those
    two things together (the woman in my history class talking about
    rape and the women here talking about catcalls), I started wondering
    if we all are imagining the same thing when we talk about catcalls.  
    
    First of all, if someone I know tells me I look good (even if the
    person yells it across a room or a crowded ship in Boston Harbor
    ;-), I don't consider that a "catcall."  Some further distinctions
    that I would make have to do with (this part's tricky) whether or
    not the person seems to be deliberately ignoring normal rules of
    politeness.  For example, if I walked by two or more people that I 
    didn't know, (and let's say I found one of the people attractive.)
    If as I was walking by, I overheard the person I thought was
    attractive say to a companion "Wow, look at *her*, or isn't she
    lovely," and it was clear that the comment was meant for the ears
    of the companion and not for me, I can imagine that I would be
    flattered, and I would probably blush.  But if I walked by two or more 
    strangers, and one of them addressed me and raised his voice and made 
    comments (of any kind) about my appearance, I would feel threatened.
    I think I would feel threatened because 1) Loud noises (such as
    yelling) startle and frighten me. 2) A stranger addressing me about
    something as personal as my appearance breaks the rules that I have
    learned about reserving private talk for private times with people
    you know, and 3. (related to 2.) the fact that this person would
    break that rule of polite conduct would make me afraid about what
    other rules he might be willing to break, and the fact that the
    content of his words to me were possibly sexual and/or possibly
    violent in nature would make me focus my feelings of anxiety in
    that area.  So if some guy yelled at me, "Hey, Lady, Vote for
    George Bush,"  I might not be as afraid as I would if he said,
    "Hey, Lady, why don't you come here so I can ... <insert something
    sexual and/or violent." 
                           
    I wonder if the women who said they might enjoy catcalls would make
    any distinctions like the ones I've tried to make here.
    
    Justine

re: .164
    
    Very well put, Justine.
    
    I certainly make the distinctions you talk about.  I have received
    "catcalls" that I enjoyed, that made me feel flattered,
    attractive, and warm all over, and catcalls [mostly while I'm out
    running] that made me want to call the nearest policeman. 
    The points you made seem to describe the differences in the
    two situations.
    
    --bonnie    

    RE: 164
    
    	Nice note, says a lot!

    One of the observations about catcalling was noted but the proposed
    explanation for the effect dose not quite ring true for me.  I think
    that there may be a missed clue in it.
    
    There was an observation by Lee that men do not catcall at whores. If
    catcalling is an expression of "power over" what would be the point in
    expressing your power over a whore?  The business of prostitution is to
    give power to whoever supplies the cash. A poorly paid manual laborer
    who catcalls is trying to show that he is valued by the world in some
    way other than by the money and status standard. A whore would only
    judge him by his money and does not care if he thinks himself a "stud."
    
    He, instead, will choose a target who has enough "class" so that
    a positive response will boost his "stud value." His targets are
    women who are "out of his reach" on the money and status scale.
    He sees himself as the underdog on the class struggle and does
    not feel guilty as he calls out to these women. "She thinks she's
    too good for me. Watch this. I'll cut her down to size. Hay...lady.."
    
    Yes, I think that catcalling can be an expression of "power over."
    I also think that it is an act of cowardice to victimize innocent people
    because you think you can get away with it.
    
    I would not want to be in his shoes.  If society decides to judge
    men based on their money and status, it would be no fun to be in
    the position of having neither.  It's easy of us, the well paid
    and high status professional engineers, to say that we would never
    catcall like these men.  If I were to have to wear those shoes I
    would hope that I could choose a way to boost my ego that was not
    quite so self serving.
    
    It is worth noting though, as Steve pointed out in .131, just because
    catcalling makes many women feel powerless does not imply that the
    men doing the calling are feeling powerful. It is not a zero-sum
    game.
       					MJC O->

    Re .167, I agree, and that's the impression I've gotten when men
    have done this to me.  Ironically, the male laborers were probably
    making twice what I make as a secretary, but I still look to them
    as though I belong to a different class (the way I dress & act)
    so I get treated like a stuck up snob who thinks I'm too good for
    them.  Actually, I don't think I'm too "good" for them.  I think
    that they're strangers and that I probably wouldn't have anything
    in common with them.  Maybe our society is set up so that all men
    have to have some way in which they feel they have power over women.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    The stereotype of the catcaller-as-blue-collar-construction-worker
    may serve to make some white collar males a little more comfortable.
    But I dare say that I have seen a few white collar males engage
    in this behavior, too - especially after a bit of drinking.
    I think that a prerequisite of this behavior is some feeling of
    anonymity, so a construction worker in coveralls and hardhat may
    feel safe enough to act that way on the job.  Maybe a white collar
    worker just has to wait until he takes off the tie and enters the
    dark bar or the football stadium.
    
    Justine

    re .167
    
    Nice note.  I agree with your interpretation.

    Lily's at Quincy Market in the summertime is a gathering place for
    many men from the finance district.  Although they do not cat call
    in the strict sense of the word.  They observe and comment on the
    women passing by.

    
    re -.1    
    
    You make it sound so... clinical, as if they were professional
    observers.
    
    I take it these comments aren't exactly... professional.

    Low volume does not make it any less a catcall.  The blue-collar
    worker expresses his opinion loudly and directly to the victim,
    while the white-collar catcaller says it to a colleague, but
    loud enough to make sure the victim hears him.
    
    There used to be a group of male DEC software engineers who sat in
    the cafeteria at noon and "graded" the women passing by on a scale
    of 1 to 10 -- this in the presence of some of the women in their
    group.  It was eventually stopped, but the purpose of it appeared
    to be not to put down the women who were being "graded" but to
    assert their power over the women engineers.  I should add that
    this was back when a woman engineer was unusual in this group. 
    
    --bonnie

    Re white collar and blue collar catcalls.  I think, from my
    experiences, that there is a difference.  I wish I could put it
    into words :-).  First, I think the difference is caused by cultural
    reasons and I don't "blame" it on the individual men.  Second, I
    realize that there are a few white collar workers who may be ruder
    than blue collar workers and some blue collar workers who would
    never dream of catcalling.  But, the times I've been the most
    embarrassed or threatened by men, the men have been either blue
    collar workers or young kids in their late teens.
    
    It seems to me that in order to have most white collar workers make
    comments about you you really have to go to a particular place where
    they are - such as the bar in Quincey Mkt. that Joyce mentioned.
     But, you can just be walking down a public street minding your
    own business, on some boring errand, and have blue collar workers
    shout or whistle.  Kids seem to like to yell from passing cars.
    
    I've had white collar workers (managers among them) who were supposed
    to be happily married proposition me on the job, and make personal
    comments.  But, it's almost always been done discreetly and by men
    I know.  Because of this I don't feel threatened and usually just
    make some joking response.  The blue collar workers and kids who
    have yelled or whistled at me have all been strangers and everybody
    around could here.  It's a different behavior pattern.
    
    Also, I think that white collar workers tend to comment on women
    whom they at least really do consider to be attractive.  Many blue
    collar workers seem to yell remarks and whistle and make noises
    to anyone from a 10 year old girl to a homely middle-aged woman
    to an elderly woman.  I think the worst feeling I get from some
    of these blue collar workers who yell remarks and whistle (and also
    from the kids who do it) is that they don't really think I am
    attractive.  I feel like they really think I don't live up to their
    standards of female beauty so they're putting me down and making
    fun of me.  Maybe if I really felt it meant they thought I was
    attractive I would feel better about it!!
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    Hmm..  it makes the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up
    when I hear social phenomena like (for example) violence against
    women being attributed to differences in class.  This happens
    a lot with the issue of wife abuse, but that's another topic.
    With regard to cat-calling, I can think of a reason why this behavior
    is more likely to be experienced as coming from "blue-collar" workers.
    
    I think that before someone can feel safe enough to engage in a
    behavior that degrades (or physically harms) another human being, 
    a few things have to happen first.  First of all, it helps if the 
    victim belongs to a group that is traditionally devalued (if you think 
    about childhood playgrounds, nobody picks on the popular kids.)
    Second, the agressor has to believe that he is unlikely to face
    negative consequences for his actions.  So, a construction worker
    sitting two stories up with his coworkers may feel pretty safe -
    you can't hurt him, can't find his boss, and his friends will
    probably laugh. But a doctor or lawyer or accountant might feel
    that the risk of embarrassment (or more serious consequences, such
    as loss of job) is too great because these "white-collar" workers are 
    not anonymous while they're on the job.  They're accessible.  We can 
    read the nameplate on their desk.  We can find out who their boss is.
    
    But on the weekend (unless they're wearing 80-dollar penny loafers
    and oxford cloth shirts) can we really tell what kind of work
    a bunch of drunken, rowdy men do?  (or do you think we might make
    assumptions about what kind of work they do because of their
    public behavior?  and is this fair or valid?)  I think that hatred of 
    and fear of women lead to cat-calling much more often than does
    admiration of the female form.  I also think that many men, regardless 
    of their earning power or grades completed, are challenging feelings
    of hatred toward women in themselves and in the world around them.  I 
    fear that many more men, however, (again regardless of social status)
    have not yet begun doing that work.
                                                 
    As a white, middle-class woman, I often find myself having to challenge
    my classist assumptions.  The more I do that, the more I find that
    behavior that is often attributed to class difference may have
    other explanations.
    
    Justine

    Arpad - In what notes have you seen references to "'men as a group'
    being crude, rapists, oppressors etc". Can you give note numbers?
    
    Bonnie
    

    Re: .180
    
    >Please explain why someone would call their supervisor, or personnel,
    >because a male wrote his opinions in this notesfile?
    
    He didn't say "opinions," he said "antagonistic behavior."  There
    is a difference, you know.
    
    >All this crap about men hating women when, to me, it is seems that
    >it is usually the other way around. Women hating men. I find it
    >impossible to accept that as fact.
    
    Which -- men hating women or women hating men?  I find both hard
    to believe in general, though I'm sure there are some individual
    cases of both.

   in re .183
    
    Thankyou eagle
    
    

re: .185

>And so, without you thinking that I'll claim anything 
>and not have proof, how do I get these numbers to you?

Try mail. It builds relationships and trust. 

oh, unless that was a facetious question...
	Mez

	This article appeared in the London Daily Express 30
	September. It is reprinted w/o permission.

	-------------------------------------------------------

	It seems we are all supposed to think that it was terribly
	funny that hundreds of factory workers wolf-whistled at the
	Princess of Wales when she visited them this week.  Boys will
	be boys, we are supposed to say.

	Actually, it struck me as depressing. What it proves is that
	people no longer have a romantic idea of Royality as a separate
	and more exalted category of person.

	Instead, a member of the Royal Family is just another celebrity,
	one of the fast-changing cast of hundreds who are famous because
	they are on the television screen.

	These celebrities are all playthings of the public imagination,
	commanding no respect. Laugh at them, wolf-whistle them, run
	up and kiss them if you can and then eventually get bored with
	them.
	Unlike most stars, however, the Princess is certain to stay
	in the public eye for the rest of her life.

	Years of putting up with wolf-whistles will be followed by
	the poignant moment when the wolf-whistles stop .. and then many,
	many more years of visting factories.

>And unfortunately, I sent it to her in confidence.
Nothing unfortunate there Arpad. That's what life is all about. Tradeoffs.
	Mez

    and Arpad,
    
    I have respected your sending that to me in confidence,
    and given that you have to respect the fact that I will have
    to deal with your letter when I have the time and space.
    
    Bonnie