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SAC::PHILPOTT_I "Col I F 'Tsingtao Dhum' Philpott"    9 lines  21-NOV-1989 04:48
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Earlier in my life I was a wic'can, indeed an initiated priest, but I really 
don't feel capable of explaining it - especially the feminist "New Wicca".

However you will find information, and possibly other contacts, in BOMBE::DEJAVU

hit kp7 etc etc etc

/. Ian .\

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RAB::HEFFERNAN "Juggling Fool"                        3 lines  21-NOV-1989 08:27
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D!, try The Spiral Dance, by Starhawk.

john (not a Wiccan)

    
    
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SONATA::ERVIN "Roots & Wings..."                     12 lines  21-NOV-1989 09:02
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    Also, "Drawing Down the Moon" by (I think) Margot Adler...
    This book gives a solid historical overview of the craft and its
    various forms.
    
    Also, Diane Mariechild's "Mother Wit."
    
    Z Budapest has a new book out entitled The Holy Book of Women's
    Mysteries. 
    
    New Words bookstore in Inman Square in Cambridge (186 Hampshire Street)
    has a large selection of books dealing with the craft.
    

    
    
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CSC32::M_EVANS                                        4 lines  21-NOV-1989 09:22
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    2nd's on "Drawing Down the Moon"  and "Spiral Dance".  Starhawk also
    has 2 books out called "Dreaming in the Dark: Magic, Sex, and Politics"
    and "Truth or Dare: Encounters with Power, Authority, and Mystery."
               

    Interesting notion. It appears that people are picking religions for
    political correctness these days.

    ~Cliff

	There are a number of groups that are open to new people
	in the Greater Boston area - I met a woman from Cambridge
	yesterday who is involved in a wicca group in Cambridge
	and then there are the UU Pagans who are open to new people
	at some of their gatherings.

	There are also a number of closed groups that open to
	new people from time to time.  It is really strange how 
	one meets new people, all the time.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Walk through the world with light
			steps thought-full-ly.

    
    	The books already listed in this note are excellent sources
    	of information. Z Budapest also puts out a newsletter and
    	there is another one from CIRCLE Sanctuary in Wisconsin that
    	should give you a feel for how the overall population is
    	placed. Not all groups are feminist. Not all groups are groups
    	actually.  Another good book to look into that contains a
    	lot of the history is "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frazer
    	and this particular book was written a LONG time ago and is
    	into reprint mode.
    							kim 

>    Interesting notion. It appears that people are picking religions for
>    political correctness these days.

I hope this wasn't directed towards me.  I never said I was "picking a
religion", just that I wanted more information on it.  If you really want
reasons, I would say it is mostly because I know so many Wiccans, I want
to know what they are talking about so I won't feel left out of the
conversation! :-)

If that comment wasn't directed at me, who was it directed at?  No one in
this note (all 6 replies of it) has said that they considered themselves
Wiccans for political reasons.

And BTW, thanks to everyone for the pointers...now to get to a library
and/or bookstore (doubtful before Thanksgiving!)

D!

    Wiccan gatherings are discussed in the DEJAVU notesfile at topic
    710.
    
    Rumor also has it that Wicca has been discussed in the RELIGION
    notesfile, but I can't seem to access the file right now...
    
    -Jody
    

    
    	Political correctness again?  I really don't think so.
    	A persons religious beliefs, philosophical leanings 
    	and their overall aproach to life aren't necessarily
    	"politically correct". People are what they are. It
    	is something that comes from deep inside and whatever
    	we are in life, politics can force one to hide it but
    	it doesn't change it.  Lets don't throw stones at things
    	we don't believe in or understand.

<    Interesting notion. It appears that people are picking religions for
<    political correctness these days.

And just *WHAT* is wrong with that?!?

In seeking an outlet for my spirituality, is it okay for me to 
pick an organization which does not automatically relegate me to 
second class status?????

--Lillian

    >Interesting notion. It appears that people are picking religions for
    >political correctness these days.
    >
    >~Cliff
    
    These days?  Whatever gave you the impression that this was a new
    phenomenon?  People have been choosing "politically correct" religions
    for centuries.  
    
    					andrew

Re: .6

	What she said!

Re: .3

I plan to go to an organized religion for part of my children's moral education.
I expect to pick which religion partially on it's political correctness. Right
now UU and the Society of Friends are neck and neck.

I view this partially as a good exposure to other views, and partially as an
inoculation against religious extremism. Children exposed to organized religion
when young are much less likely to fall for it when older.

It sounded to me like you were sneering at "political correctness" as a
criterion for choosing a religion. You have a better way? Divine inspiration
perhaps? Revealed "Truth"?

Re: .0

I've looked at Wicca and I wish its practitioners all the best. From what I've
seen of it, it isn't for me but it sure beats most other organized religions all
hollow.

	-- Charles

    It wasn't my comment, and I can't relate at a visceral level with
    either side, but I think I understand the reasoning behind the jab as
    "politically correct" religious choices.

    It comes down to "what is religion?". My view (through the glass
    darkly):

    For some, it's a search for ultimate truth. From this perspective,
    selecting a religion by political correctness would be folly, because
    you bias the set of beliefs you're willing to consider according to
    your existing beliefs about what is "PC"; if the one "ultimate truth"
    isn't among them, your choice - politically correct or not - is wrong.

    For others, it's more of a mechanism for getting "in touch" with "self
    and spirituality". This is (my view) more the "new age" approach to
    religion. Whether or not you like the term "new age", it's still a more
    mechanistic approach: a religion is sought not for ultimate truth, but
    for some level of personal satisfaction and (perhaps) extrapolation. In
    this style, politically correctness (from the seeker's perspective) is
    more important, since the value of the religion is not absolute, but
    rather self-referential.

    And, of course, there is a continuum between these extremes.

    Plus, of course, there is plenty of room apart from this continuum, for
    those of us who don't view religion, or spirituality, etc., as anything
    worth pursuing.

    .11
    
    I chose to teach my daughter moral education, and did not to expose
    her (while very young) to organized religion.  Then when she was
    11 years old, she came to me with many questions about religions,
    and wanted to see the services of Catholic (my upbrining), Jewish,
    Protestant, and Unitarian (she liked the best, because it made sense).
    I explained to her that it is of her free will to choose which or
    none at all.  All goodness (Godliness) is within, not in a building.
    
          Carol
                       
    

    The notion of selecting a religion because it is politically correct
    assumes, of course, that there is any validity whatsoever to the
    concept of "political correctness."
    
    -- Mike

	One of the problems here is the notion that "religion"
	is outside the self - something that comes to one.

	My experience with Wicca is in finding, what I have always
	felt, to be a consistant theme - "religion" is what one
	feels in ones gut that the brain can process and identify.

	My children were exposed to Cathollcism and then UUism
	and then Fundmentalism and now my daughter is embracing
	Paganism and my son is looking at Native American tradtions.

	As my mother would say - we (myself and my children) have
	lost religion/God and need to be prayed for, for salvation.

	Wicca, to me, is more a set of values/ethics that one lives
	by rather than a place or type of worship that happens on
	a certain date.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			live what one believes
			believe what one lives.
			

I was reacting to the implication in .3 that devaluing the 
humanity of all women is really a simple case of being 
"politically incorrect", a minor sin at best. However, in this 
case, the term "politically correct" is disguising a legitimate 
concern with finding a religious context in which women can join 
fully in that search for truth, hardly a minor matter.

Any religious community that devalues my humanity without even 
knowing who I am is no place for me to try searching for ultimate 
truth. To my mind, if such a community ever had any chance of 
finding ultimate truth, they lost it long ago.

--Lillian

    
    re: .10 (Andrew)
    
    	You took the words right off my fingertips.
    
    	Carla
    

As an aside ---

wicca is in fact two words, hence the apostrophe (wic'ca) in the form I use.
It is an ancient gaelic phrase meaning "the way of [or to] knowledge". I am 
reminded of the name of the South American guerrillas in this context: "Shining 
Path" makes an excellent colloquial translation.

It is not pronounced "wick-a" but, bearing in mind that the 'w' is *really* a
double-u, it is "oo-ick-car".

The oldest historical reference I know is in Julius Caesar's writings. He 
describes the priestesses, dressed in black as a sort of celtic furies, 
and also describes the druids.

Druid (from 'dru' meaning 'strong', and 'wid' or 'wic' meaning knowledge, 
hence the dr'wic are 'wise men')  are in fact not priests, but rather judges 
and keepers of the law. All wic'can priests are in fact female.

End of rathole...

/. Ian .\

    
    Please see Scott Peck's book "Different Drum - Community Making
    and Peace".  This is an important book which provides hope for
    humanity.  Thankfully, the Christian author embraces all religious
    and non-religous entities.  The book makes no mention of Wic'ca
    but addresses community-making, ethics, morals, valuing human 
    life, and our sweet mother, Earth.
    
                                    (.)
                                    ---
                                     | 
                                        
    
      

    Ian, please write more.  I was hoping to find out about the Wiccan
    religion in this string, but so far have found nothing but the relative
    "PC-ness" of choosing religions.  So far, you've shed the most light.
    Are there any Wiccans, (Wic'cans), out there who are willing to
    tell us something about Wicca - about its tenets, its premises, why
    they chose Wicca, what it does for them, etc.  I've only bought
    one measly book on the subject so far but I'm fascinated.  Woman
    is so earthy and mystical - so absolute and so fascinating.  I believe 
    woman is connected with the stirrings of the universe in a way man
    just isn't.  Please tell me more!

    I just found out my cousin in California is apprenticing for a year
    with a Wiccan shaman....I think it's very cool she found something
    that she really likes that will help her grow in ways she wants...
    
    Also, as a sidenote, I have recently read of a new internet mailing
    list for pagan-related discussion, and if anyone is interested they're
    welcome to send mail and I'll tell them more.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    Please excuse my ignorance, but....is Wicca the New Age term
    for witchcraft?
    
    Deb
    
    

    re: .21
    And what's an internet discussion?  Different from a Notes conf.?

Is Wic'ca witchcraft? No - or at least it shouldn't be, though there are some 
very strange fringe groups out there today.

Wic'ca is a very old religion. It is animist (shades of which are found today
in celtic beliefs in leprachauns and tree sprites and fairies), it is feminist:
the central God-trinity is headed by a Goddess and the minor male forms are 
merely masculine aspects of the central Goddess.

The Celtic family was an extended family: a woman and her husband, the husbands 
concubines (if any), the married daughters and their husbands (and their 
concubines), and their children plus the unmarried sons.

The family was ruled by the matriarch and it was she who acted as family 
priestess. Since many men died before their wives she would often be a widow and
it is the memory of this that casts the witch in medieval legend as an old 
woman.

After the coming of christianity it was the monks of the new religion who wrote
the propaganda denigrating the old religion.

Wic'ca has nothing to do with devil worship, nor animal or human sacrifice. It 
was about oneness with nature. This led to one of the common misconceptions - to
maximise the communion with nature it was usual at key ceremonies for the 
participants to avoid man-made obstruction between themselves and nature, so 
clothes were often discarded (or if not then they must certainly be made from
natural fibre and not worked by men).

Magic was involved of course, but only incidentally: there was a caste of men
known as "strong in knowledge" (literally dr'wic, today we'd call them shamans)
who practiced divination and medicine and acted as judges and arbiters in 
disputes between tribes and families. They practiced Ceremonial Magic before 
battles and as part of certain major steps in life (a marriage for example 
required the dr'wic to divine a propritious moment, and to determine if the 
couple were well matched and properly instructed in the art of marriage - yes 
they may well have been the original marriage guidance councillors, and they 
certainly were very modern in suggesting a need for marriage guidance 
councilling before the marriage occured). 

So no Witchcraft isn't really wic'ca, nor vice versa. Witchcraft was a product 
of the fevered minds of medieval witchfinders - who may well have been driven by
sexual perversity and a desire to dominate weak women rather than a real calling 
to root out heresy. Today I suspect that some witchcraft groups - not by any 
means all - are driven by needs to be different, to experiment with drugs, or
merely to be sexually different.

/. Ian .\
(this is my second try - a key bounce on my mouse killed the last attempt)

    
    
    Hmmmmm..... I wonder if we are using different names for the
    same concept.
    
    In my mind, witchcraft is not satanism (although the media, in
    it's ignorance, often ties the two together).  Witchcraft is the
    religion of nature.  It is a joining with the elements of nature.
    It is the recognition and use of the innate abilities in all of
    us.  It is the awareness that we are all tied together and our
    thoughts and actions create energy which can and does impact the
    world around us.
    
    Of course, there is also ceremonial magic involved for the ver
    involved participant.  An analogy:  one who has chosen the Catholic
    religion as their guiding light can simply live by the tenants and
    rules.  Or can go so far as to attend Mass, take communion, and
    particiate in the ceremonies of that particular religion. So it is
    with those who believe in the concept of witchcraft.  One can choose
    to live by the philosophies, or take it further and become in involved
    in ceremonies.
    
    So, are we talking the same thing here?
    
    Deb
    
    
    

    From my experience we're talking about the same thing. 
    
    Ian, I think
    you will find as you talk to other pagans that a number of pagan
    women (and men) will call themselves witches. However the word witch
    is still a buzz word to many. All of the witches I know do not belong
    to groups that are misguided, and I only know of one group that ever
    did any work with drugs. That is highly unusual. All of these witches 
    follow the nature spirit/goddess/god religion that you talk about. And
    many follow in the spirit of the wise woman and/or healing woman.
    The groups you talk about are often called covens. They are in many
    ways like family groups where people care about each other.
    
    Witchcraft or magic is practised. It may be a simple healing spell
    or money spell but more often the focus is healing the earth. Then
    again many ordinary everyday things can be magic. Changing your
    legislator's mind, now that's magic!
    
    If you want further information there are several resources available.
    Laurie Cabot, the Salem Witch (really!) teaches classes in Wicca.
    Her daughter has a shop in Salem, MA called Crow Haven's Corner.
    Sorry I don't have the number but that's a start. Another place
    to go is The Earth Spirit Community located in Medford, MA. Again
    I don't have the address offhand but will try to remember tomorrow.
    ESC is an umbrella organization for a number of groups, and covens
    including their own teaching coven. They have open Circles for the
    cross quarters. One is coming up for Yule/solstice.
    
    Hope that helps!
    
    Lianne, (the reluctant pagan, but that's another story)  

As a famous character in fiction once said on overhearing an insult based on
the size of his nose, it depends whether you use a phrase to describe yourself
or somebody else uses the word to describe you.

As this conference has eloquently put it in discussions before words can be very
powerful. They can also be hijacked, especially by the media. Witch is such a
powerful word, and it has connotations of hatred and loathing that not everybody
cares to call upon themselves.

Now that said, most wic'cans of my experience describe *themselves* as witches, 
but equally they like outsiders to call them wic'cans (or wiccans if you 
prefer). Thus to be technically correct a woman who is initiated is a wic'ca and 
a man is a dr'wic, though both are what outsiders would imprecisely call 
witches.

Also whilst Wic'ca, as a nature religion is a form of witchcraft, not all 
witches by any means are wic'cans!

So when asked if Wic'ca is what the New-age-talk labels witchcraft I'd have to 
say "no", but it *is*, what *I* would call witchcraft... But then I call the
teachings of Alistair Crowley Devil Worship, but *he* called it witchcraft!

Crowley's new age witchcraft invokes Thoth, a male God, and the forces of the
beyond, Wic'ca invokes a female dominated trilogy and the forces of nature... 
They are as far apart as Night and Day.

Just as an additional point, the Wic'cans celebrate the trinity with four 
festivals, so if you wonder how three God[esse]s can be celebrated in four 
festivals equally then it goes like this.

The trinity consists of Brigid, Belenos, and Lug.

February: on the day known in America as Ground Hog Day, which is half way 
between the Winter Solstice and the Spring Equinox, has a festival called Imbolc,
dedicated to Brigid. It is associated with the onset of the lambing season and 
the start of ewes giving milk.

May: Beltaine is dedicated to Belenos, and is associated with the planting 
of crops. 

August: Lugnasa, dedicated to Lug, is a harvest festival, and is also the 
time when there is some slack in the farming calendar, and so a general holiday 
is in order. It is the traditional time of Celtic weddings.

End of October: Samain - the most important festival, half way between the
Autumn equinox and the Winter Solstice, it marks the Celtic new year. It is 
dedicated to the trinity as a whole.

(Note: the actual dates have been moved by neo-wiccans to more modern dates at 
Feb 1 for Imbolc, May 1 for Beltaine, mid August for Lugnasa and October 31 for
Samain. The actual dates for the four festivals are the half way points between
the solstices and equinoxes. Private ceremonials also mark the four 
astronomical dates, but these are *not* public ceremonial as the others are).

/. Ian .\

    An internet mailing list is not like a notesfile.  It is not run
    from within DEC.  It's note like a usenet newsgroup, because you
    don't Read News that is stored for a long time which you can access.
     You simply get a mail message anytime anyone sends anything to
    the list (everybody gets a copy from wherever the list is kept).
     You request to be added to the list, and eventually you request
    to be deleted.  All the etiquette of notesfiles pretty much applies,
    though.
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    Personally, I reject the notion that magic can be white, black
    or grey. 
    
    Deb
    

Certainly, but then again as I tried to explain there is a difference between
the religious observances of the wiccan priestesses and the magic of the druidic
shamans.

This again is part of the reason I don't use the word witchcraft to describe
wic'ca to outsiders.

Black or white is a matter of intention: traditional wic'can shamanism is
white because the intent is always to help or heal. Crowley's Thothian magic is
black because the intent is to dominate or attain power and wealth.

/. Ian .\

Of course, to non-Christians, Transubstantiation (the changing of wine
into blood) also seems like  magic.  For that matter, it was *illegal*
in Sweden until the late 1960's or early 1970's.  The law (very old
and not enforced) banned the priest from raising the chalice above his
head.

Martin.