Conference turris::womannotes-v2

Some personal thoughts:

I left womannotes a long while back because I was getting into arguments with
another UI professional. I wondered how each of us would react if we were put
into a position of power over the other, or were simply co-workers. I was not
pleased with what I saw in myself, and had no optimism about what I saw in him.

I have great respect for people who actually get as far as _thinking_ about
replying with something difficult. I believe I pre-censure myself, so I don't
even _know_ I'm thinking these things.

It's a small world. It's a small profession. It's a small company.

I actively refuse to respond when people demand things of me I cannot provide
in the notesfile. That's one way to deal with 1. or 4. in .0. But it is
difficult. It is a totally legitimate thing to say "I don't know"; I wish we
all admitted it more often.

I encourage anyone to submit something anonymously that they can't bring
themselves to submit in person; no matter how seemingly trivial.
	Mez

    	Like others have said, I censor what I write here, too, when it
    	comes to talking about very personal events/concerns in my life.
    	
    	My main involvement in the file tends to be either very, very
    	lighthearted, or seriously political (in issues involving women's
    	and/or minority rights.)  
    
    	In most/all other kinds of topics, I'm a deeply faithful (almost
    	to the point of being religious about it :-)) "read only noter"
    	(except for my occasional "vacations" from the file, after which
    	I always try to read everything I've missed while I was away.)
    
    	I'm absolutely fascinated by what the women here have to say about
    	anything/everything that comes up, and I've grown to appreciate other 
    	women more than I ever thought was possible.  
    
    	The file does tend to be confrontational at times, but when you
    	consider the divisive nature of our most pressing women's rights
    	issues, it would be downright *amazing* if the debates on some
    	of these issues did *not* tend to generate heat once in awhile.
    	
    	When I read the strong, logical arguments here that *support*
    	women's rights, it's always a great source of hope and inspiration 
    	to me (and I've learned a lot from the experience.)
    
    	For all I've gained from the conference, the need to censor what
    	I write about my personal life seems like a small price to pay.
    	
    	I do admire others who *are* able to be more open, though (and those 
    	who avail themselves of the anonymous_note_to_the_mods system.)
    	Some of these notes can be of great benefit whether one actively
    	participates in the discussions or not.

    I censor myself more heavily in other conferences than I do in this
    one, but I still self-censor here.  Mostly this is because I recognize
    that there is some unknown but potentially large group of read-only
    people there, and I am leery of revealing possibly divisive opinions
    to those I have to work with.
    
    I try to contribute where I have first-hand experience which I suspect
    will be helpful to the discussion, or information which sheds a
    different light on a situation.  I have posted anonymously in order
    to avoid exposure of personal information.  I read *everything*,
    as close to daily as possible.  One of the results of being here
    is that I am becoming more open and stronger about expressing my
    opinions in *all* aspects of my life.  This has been very positive
    growth for me.
    
    I hope this is responsive to the basenote -- 
    
    Alison

    I write less to this notes file than I would if it were
    for women only. I do this because there are women's issues
    I want to discuss with women only, and I don't want to have
    to explain why I feel what I feel to men. I do that in the
    rest of my life, and I would like to have one place where
    I don't have to do it.
    
    I think women are a socioeconomically oppressed group and
    have been throughout human civilization. As such, we have
    things in common that we do not have in common with men,
    especially white men. It is my goal to form solidarity
    among women so that our grievances may be realistically
    redressed. Having to stop and explain things to men during
    this process slows the process down.
    
    Giving women equal rights undoubtedly will affect men
    adversely initially, but it is still the right thing to do.
    Therefore, I don't expect men to be happy with many of my
    ideas. But I still think it is right that I have a forum
    to discuss my ideas free from male intervention.

    Recently when I wrote a note about husbands' lack
    of sharing housework. I received an offline piece of mail 
    from a male member of the community saying that this reflected 
    my "mindset." In fact, it is knowledge gained from a recent 
    national study that received wide publicity in the media. It is 
    not a great burden to deal with this, but it is work and I 
    would rather concentrate in this file on building solidarity 
    among women at Digital.
    
    Why is it that when women talk about working for women's rights
    they must always state in an addendum that they don't hate
    men?  Why should any such connection be made? But let me
    not part from tradition by saying that I know that injustice
    is everywhere, in every gender, and that those who perpetrate
    it are as ill served by it as those on whom it is perpetrated.
    But that's no reason not to fight it on the front closest to
    home as well as on the other fronts. And, all things considered, 
    I'm glad I'm a woman.
    
    
    Eileen
    
    
    

    I don't like to use the word "censor" when I think about why I do
    not write what I might be thinking, as I write something I watered
    down for general reading.  I like to think of it as "pulling 
    in my claws."  
    
    I owe a debt of gratitude to many of the noters in this file.  And
    I don't have to agree with them, nor do I feel that I have to believe
    as they do to benefit from what they have written.  Several basenoters,
    in fact, have raised questions I *did not dare* to speak about,
    but were problems causing me deep anguish and confusion.  Through
    those notes, and many of the following responses, I found myself
    in like company---people who had and were dealing with---the issues
    that caused me grief.  And through those times, I have come to fully
    understand the old saw "trouble shared is trouble halved".
    
    I do often fear being flamed to bits [I imagine myself sectioned off
    between tomato and pepper slices over a *huge* gas grill] because
    I am pretty set in some of my attitudes which---to some [noters
    and personal acquaintances as well]---may seem rather archaic and
    old fashioned now.   
    
    I have an inner life within my life and this I share
    with no one, not even my closest friend or family.  All the rest 
    I lay out on the line.  Therefore never have to worry about who 
    knows what about me.
    
    The whole damn world knows.  And I don't think that more than 3
    souls give it more than passing thought, and only then in relation 
    to how they can use my experiences in comparing their own.  
    
    As far as men in this file, I can't figure out if I am thickheaded
    or not politically correct enough to get upset over
    what they might or might not write or what it means, or etc..  
    I figure we are all slouching towards Bethlehem [thanks, I_forgot_her_name]
    the best way we can.  And yes, I know the politically correct
    arguments, but I prefer to educate the unenlightened, not cut them off. 
    
    I often think the *flamer* is neither flaming the noter or
    the note, but the problem s/he has dealing with that particular
    issue.  The higher the *flame* the more I question why they need
    to be so *loud* about their stand if they are truly at peace with
    what they profess to believe.  
    
    And last but not least, the late Duchess of Windsor had a saying
    I rather like: "Never complain, never explain."  
    
    M
    
    
    
     
    
    
    
     
    
    
       

    Marilyn,
    
    I love your notes. They're definately well thought out.
    
    I use notes because I love to read. Especially notes like Marilyn's.
    There is much I wouldn't tell this community. I have friends for
    that. That doesn't mean I won't ever have friends that note but
    the platform is much too public for personal things.
    
    Kate
    

    I value this notesfile greatly.  But I am reluctant to add my comments
    for the same reason that would prompt a fwo only discussion.  I mostly
    feel inadequate in expression and contemplative of comment and wish to
    be received in that light.  All too often it seems that there is a
    tendency to jump on what a person enters from a soapbox attitude.  I
    don't always want my comments hacked, analyzed, critisized, or debated. 
    There are those who seem to get their jollies doing that in a
    notesfile.  I would like  better to feel accepted for what I am.  It
    takes far too much of my energy to compose an entry and don my thick
    skin.  I don't have one so I avoid exposing tender areas to attack.
    
    Dondi

    As mentioned in a previous reply, there are ALOT of people out there
    in VAXnotes-land who are avid readers and never reply.  I personally
    don't reply as often as I'd like because I'm wondering if someone
    who I would not want to is out there reading my comments.  There
    could be someone I have to work with or work for in the future that
    disagrees with my stance on issues.  Digital is far too politically
    influenced not to watch out for what I say.  If everyone recognized
    that people's replies are their personal opinions it would be OK.
    Unfortunately when someone reads a controversial comment/opinion
    it is easy for them to react negatively towards the writer.  I wish
    everyone could feel comfortable and write just what they mean, knowing
    this forum is for open expression of opinions - without having to
    worry about attacking replies or repercussions.

    It seems to me there are different ways of "knowing" stuff and that,
    to *some* extent, these different ways are male/female differences
    (whether by biology or socialization, I don't care to discuss here).
    It took me a long time to figure out how do defend my views when my
    husband said, "You're not being logical!" or "WHY do you think that?"
    
    Well, over the years, I discovered/decided that "intuition" to *me*
    means coming to some kind of synthesis/conclusion without being
    conscious as to the pieces of experience or information that go into
    that conclusion.  If I have a certain belief or viewpoint and *take the
    time to analyze it* I can almost always discover *why* I think or
    believe it -- but I don't always "get there" by *consciously* drawing
    conclusions from the experience or information.  My conclusion "feels"
    right -- and upon analysis, generally is right.  
    
    What I'm getting around to is that I may not share that "intuitive
    conclusion" with people who may want to know my reasoning, unless and
    until I have the time and inclination to do the anaylsis to discover
    the reasoning, etc., etc.

Yes, that makes sense to me. In fact, I've 'had it up to here' (insert favorite
level of having-it-up-to) with logic. Nothing like living by logic for a while
to discover you can make anything seem logical. Life is complex, ya know?
	Mez

    It makes perfect sense to me also.  I envy you for having figured out
    a way to defend your views in the face of claims that you aren't
    >gasp< being logical.  I'm still getting waylaid by that little
    road blocker.
    
    CQ
    

    Mez, my late husband was *always* pointing out the 'logic' of a
    situation, especially when I countered with words such as 'fair'
    'just' 'reasonable' etc.  I finally stumbled onto something that
    raised my happy level and lowered his use of the word logic.
    
    I read: 'Logic is the last resort of scoundrels'.  Now I haven't
    the faintest idea what it means, but it sounded great!

    M

The following entry is from a member of our community who wishes
to remain anonymous.

I would join the anonymous author in encouraging women to enter material
anonymously if they have something that they'd like to say on this
topic but are uncomfortable writing it openly.

Bonnie
=wn= comod
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was hoping to see more replies from women, maybe even anonymously, validating
some of the rumors I had heard (and some of the feelings I have myself). The
FWO portion of this string is pretty quiet, as have the women's contributions
in the FGD string.

Are women unable to speak up in Womannotes, from a distinctly 'female' or
'feminist' point of view? I feel I am not. 'Feminism' has come in for a lot of
heat, here and in the press. While I would like to explore some of its ideas
here, I do not feel up to the heat (mostly).

I wonder if other women who feel this way have left, or are mythical.

    	RE: .15  Anonymous reply
    
    	> Are women unable to speak up in Womannotes, from a distinctly 
    	> 'female' or 'feminist' point of view? I feel I am not [able to
    	> speak up in Womannotes.]
    
    	> 'Feminism' has come in for a lot of heat, here and in the press. 
    	> While I would like to explore some of its ideas here, I do not 
    	> feel up to the heat (mostly).
    
    	You're not alone, I assure you!  Even in this conference, it is
    	nearly impossible to speak truly openly from the feminist viewpoint
    	without being accused of being a "man hater," or a (heaven forbid)
    	"RADICAL feminist" (and there aren't many of us who enjoy having to
    	sidestep these kinds of ridiculous accusations, even when we are
    	in a forum where we happen to be in the majority!)
    
    	I could say a lot more about this, but I wouldn't feel comfortable
    	about doing so in this particular place (for reasons that should
    	be obvious to anyone who has seen some of the vitriolic comments
    	about =wn= that have been written by some men in the FGD string in 
    	the past several days.)
    
    	I'd better stop right here before going any farthur.

    I thought I was a feminist until I came to womannotes! Now I consider
    myself something else. I don't have a name for it but I'll let you
    know when I find one.
          
    Kate (who until now was NEVER considered to lean toward the right!)
    
    
    
    

    	You're a feminist (or not a feminist) depending on what *you*
    	think you are, no matter what anyone else thinks or says about
    	women's issues.
    
    	I've seen feminist ideas that have made me feel way to the left,
    	and others that have made me feel way to the right.
    
    	Sometimes I am amazed at how diverse the people within the
    	women's movement really are!  (That's one of my favorite things 
    	about it, actually!)
    
    	After reading this file for the past three years, I can't even
    	imagine now why I once thought all feminists thought completely
    	alike.  It's so much more interesting to me that we don't!

    Harkening back to the base-note...
    
    Yes, there are many times that I write a response and then just abort
    it.
    
    I'm not uncomfortable sharing in the file and I'm not afraid to defend
    or explain.  I fully exercise my right to respond or not respond to
    challenges or questions.  Generally I choose to take them to mail
    rather than clutter the conference.
    
    However, I have found that taking a discussion to mail is frequently
    more effective.  The 'pounce' effect doesn't dilute what I am trying to
    say.
    
       Ann

    RE: .15
    
    Yep.
    
    --DE
    

Well, I consider myself one of the old crones of womannotes. After all,
I won the lesbian hairy legs contest at the first womannotes party. 
There was a time when what happened here in this file had great
significance to me.  The excitement of connecting with other women was
thrilling, and sometimes even the feeling of solidarity under fire felt
good, in the midst of all the struggles.  I am now something of a
retired noter. In fact, I'm writing this response with about 1000 unseen
notes, and I have yet to read the FGD version of this topic which has
been alluded to in previous replies -- I may have other things to say
when and if I do. 

I find it humorous when the women in this file are characterized as
overwhelmingly "radical feminists".  Most of what I read here isn't what
I consider radical -- radical is when Bonnie Mann scares me suggesting
there is a place for violence in overthrowing the patriarchy.  I know of
no rapist-castrating vigilantes who belong to this file, and until I do,
I have to consider what most folks call "radical" to be fairly tame.
Given the range of "radical" that exists here, however, I feel like I
can claim the far edges of that space. 

There are very few women out here with me in the radical fringe.  That's
ok; I'm not in a place where I feel the need to convert anyone else to
my understanding of the world.  I do wish to share my perspective with
other women, and part of my desire to do this is because of the large
parts of my life that I have spent living essentially in isolation from
other women.  I know the difference it would have made to me to have
connection, validation, and perhaps a more woman-identified point of
view at various times in my own history.  Being where I am now, that is
the one thing I most want to offer to other women. 

I am here for the women, but this is not really a woman-identified
space.  In spite of being nominally for women, men and male concerns
shape a great deal of the conversation. Even in topics one would
consider to be as personal to women as they could be (gynecologists,
lingerie), men need to intrude and remind us that they have nipples,
too.  No conversation can really go on without some man asserting the
fundamental male right to women's attention.  And no woman can really
say the unthinkable (like that men on the whole don't do their share of
the housework and take their share of responsibility for life and human
relationships -- every women knows this, and every woman is afraid to
say it out loud), without so much noise being inserted in the signal by
men that communication becomes impossible.  The noise changes the shape
of the signal so very much that what comes out is a new definition of a
completely different conversation. 

The noise prevents what I think is the most valuable thing about women
talking together: women putting the little bits of glass that reflect
their own experiences together, to form a mosaic with a bigger picture.
It can be very frightening to see some of the bigger pictures. Women as
well as men get frightened.  I think one of the ways women cope with a
weight of oppression that would be intolerable, that would provoke them
to world-destroying rage if they could see it all at once, is to break
it down into little particulars and then see them as our personal
problems and especially our personal failures (why can I get my husband
to share in the housework more?)  After all, if something is our fault,
we could somehow fix it if we tried hard enough and things wouldn't be 
so bad.  This kind of coping strategy is not unlike that of abused
children, who would rather believe they have been beaten for being bad
than that they are beaten for no reason by individuals who are not
responding to them personally.  It is not a strategy that serves to
empower such children when they grow up, and it is not one that empowers
women as they try to come into their own, either. 

When I note here, it is to put down my little pieces of glass and 
describe the picture I see taking shape.  There is a lot of work 
involved in doing that.  Because there is this constant interference, my 
logic must be flawless, my phrases careful, my idea fully composed 
so that it can survive the distortion and perhaps reach its destination.
That destination is other women, and in saying that I know I am making 
an charged statement.  Women loving men and women hating men are both 
acceptable responses to the male demand for attention: both still make 
men the point of departure for a women's being.  Women simply not 
engaging with men seems so incredibly lethal that every attempt is made
to deny the possibility of such a thing.  Of course refusal to give men 
attention must be hatred, or disappointment in sex, love or childbearing 
or whatever is supposed to make a woman fullfilled in male terms.  More 
than one woman ignoring a man is of course a conspiracy (of man-haters, 
ugly spinsters, women who secretly want penises, whatever).  The 
constant provocation to get women oriented toward women (I don't mean 
sexually -- I mean even in the simple business of having a conversation)
to "admit" that they really hate men is the scream of spoiled children
left in another room while the moms have tea together. 

The effort involved in trying to communicate with other women over the 
interference is so much work, that often my energy fails me.  As 
different noters come into this file and play many of the same roles and 
same scenarios over and over again, saying the same thing and rehashing 
the same basic rights to say the same thing, the effort of participating
starts to have a lower return on my investment.  I still care for the 
women in this file, but I just can't put all that energy into having to 
be so careful.  

I need to be re-energized, too, to have supportive conversations where
my premises do not need to be constantly challenged.  That may be too
much to ask in this file, but it seems to me that level of provocative,
woman-oriented conversation has dropped off from what it once was. It's
as if many of us have tired of the struggle and decided to just discuss
hairdressers and favorite songs. There is of course a valuable place in
this file for conversations like that -- I don't mean to imply that they
are less valuable than discussing feminist politics. But it is the
feminist politics that I personally most enjoy, and I miss it.  A lot of
the old rad fem guard (myself included), seems to have gone on.  They
don't seem to get replaced as regularly as the Sensitive Male or Rugged
Libertarian crews do, though, and that makes me sad. 

I no longer go to Womannotes parties, and indeed, the very idea that 
most of them of late have been held at a man's house so completely 
boggles my mind that I know for sure Womannotes can't possibly the kind 
of place I used to think it was.  [I suspect I've just mentioned another 
taboo subject, but old age is making me wild and reckless.]  It is a 
good woman's place to give and give until she is empty and she dies, but 
I am learning to risk being a bad woman.  For my own survival here and
now I need to save some of that energy and channel it elsewhere besides
womannotes.  I give my love to the women who are taking up and renewing 
the struggle.  I may join them again some day, but for now, I need a 
rest.

Catherine, I always hate coming to the end of one of your notes -- 
I just want it to go on and on.
Thanks for this one.

	M

             <<< Note 745.21 by MOSAIC::IANNUZZO "Catherine T." >>>
                      -< Some thoughts, from a distance >-


	Since I came back as a somewhat active member of this files
	again I have noticed a lack of re-energizing conversation to
	be part of.  I did attend the last =wn= party - I got there
	late BUT there were (to me) more men then women there and there
	was very limited conversation going on - very much like any
	other mixed gender party I have attended.

	There are a number of men in this file (read-only and r/w)
	who I respect and I think they are positive influences.  BUT
	for the most part I am really bored with the "sensitive" guy
	attitude that has the effect of quieting women when they
	begin to speak for themselves.  Oh by the way, if the shoe
	fits - eat it.

	I was informed earlier this week that I am one of "them" who
	ever they may be.  As Catherine said so eloquently,  I know
	of no "radical" feminist in this file or even who work for
	DEC.

	All those who have been "warned" about "political correctness"
	can note in safety in this conference since most of the "real"
	conversations between women have be co-opted to fit the "let's
	make sure we don't say anything that would seem to be in the
	least confrontative to the sensitive guys" in this file.

	For the past three months I have been tempted to place a note
	called "WHERE HAVE ALL THE WOMEN GONE????"

	I am still wondering, but I think that I know the why.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |

			The Goddess does not expect me to teach men
			how to be humans other than by example.

    Yeah, any notes file that counts ME as a radical is hard up ! ! ! ! ! !
    
    Sheesh.  It's enough to make me greatly exaggerate my own position
    just to get things stirred up.  
    
    --bonnie, who really wasn't around for a while but has about
    decided that she'd better stay . . . 
    

    in re .22 and .23
   
    I just did a count of those at the last party, there were 47
    people and two children there. 26 of the adults were women
    and 21 were men. This was the highest ratio of men to women
    that we've had to date, (as I recall), but there were still more
    women than men and many women came that had not been to a =wn=
    party before.
    
    Also, since I'm the one who has organized nearly all of the 
    parties held by the file, I'd like to say why they've been
    at David Wittenberg's so frequently.
    
    The first few parties were held after I put an announcement
    in the file asking for someone who would be willing to open
    their house to a party. This was always a bit complicated
    to negotiate and limited the frequency of how often we could
    have parties. (I would be more than willing to hold a party
    at my house, but I live about an hour and a half from Maynard,
    which is not condusive to getting many people to attend :-) ).
    
    David offered his house for a party about as often as  I was
    willing to organize one. Which has worked out to be about once
    every two months. As a result, a lot of womannoters, both old
    and new have had the chance to talk and communicate with each other.
    His house is centrally located, is well laid out for a party and
    parking is not a problem. 
    
    Since we started having parties at David's house only one woman
    has come foward and offered her house for a file party. That
    was Ann Broomhead and we had a very nice party at her house.
    Perhaps my stopping asking in the file for other people to
    open their home to a party has discouraged other women from
    doing so. If there are other women who want to offer to welcome
    the memebers of the file to their homes, please send mail to
    me or any of the other moderators.
  
    Quite honestly, it never occured to me, that the gender of the
    person providing the place for the party mattered. My major
    concern was finding a regular, reliable place to hold them at
    all , so I didn't have to start each party note begging for a place
    to hold it. David offered his house and I gladly accepted the offer.
    I would be more than glad to offer to do the organizing, as I have
    done previously for anyone who wants to have a =wn= party at
    their home.
    
    Bonnie
      
    

    Dear Catherine, 
    
    Thank you for your effort, and thank you for saying the unthinkable.
    
    CQ

    Catherine, the only reason you won the lesbian hairy leg contest at
    that party is that I wasn't there :)

    
    
    Catherine!
    
    You said so many things that I have been thinking of but haven't
    dared to write.  That is something you often do for the women in
    this file, Catherine.  You say the things that are so scary to say
    but so empowering to hear -- thank you.
           
    Justine

    I don't believe that Catherine has ever written anything in her life
    that hasn't been powerful and evocative; I really wish she knew how
    many people in this community value her and her insights!  She speaks
    for so many women...and probably not a few men, too.
    
    I almost always have a fresh view of the world after reading what she
    writes...even those few times when I don't agree with her!
    
    						=maggie

>    I don't believe that Catherine has ever written anything in her life
>    that hasn't been powerful and evocative; 

Oh come on; I bet her checks are almost as dull as mine! :-)

Now, if only we could pay Catherine enough to get that good stuff full time,
and/or support her enough to make the energy flow.
	Mez

    A few things,
    
    This is the first time I have replied to a FWO note and hopefully the
    last.  I have a problem with segregation of any kind.  But I want to make
    it clear that I am speaking to the women of the conference.
    
    I love reading Catherine's notes and as usual I read and noded my head
    all the way to the last paragraph.  She is so right that we need to
    communicate with women, and it is often very difficult to do it when
    some men feel the need to invalidate feelings or emotions.  It takes a
    lot of strength and determination.  
    
    But how can we possibly ignore the statement she made about the
    parties?  It would have been unthinkable if we had 'chosen' to have the
    parties at a man's home.  But I don't think that is true, I do not
    think we have had that many options, if any.  Anyone that opens their
    home is deserving of thanks, somehow the last paragraph in .21 has
    turned a generous offer into something negative.
    
    And it is making me feel disloyal.  Do I have to choose my every move
    to prove my loyalty to feminism? 
    
    
    
    
       
    
      

	There is a feeling among some women of being VERY uncomfortable
	when entering a MAN's house.  This is something I suffer from
	and I know there are other women that do also.  I can not explain
	it, nor do I care to.  If the house is jointly owned by a man
	and a woman, I am less uncomfortable.  If the house is a woman's
	house this feeling is absent.

	By owner of the house - I mean the one who pays the rent/mortgage
	supports the space, maintains it.  Somehow this comes through
	prior to my going to visit anyone.  (BTW - the answer is yes I
	even have this uncomfortable feeling at Mark's house.)

	Thereby, when a =wn= party is held at a man's house it is very
	likely that I will not show up even if I have nothing else to do.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |

			Maybe there is a statement in the fact
			that more women don't open there homes to 
			=wn= parties - think about the reasons!

    I'm with Joyce in not usually writing in FWO but this time it seems
    right. IMHO, boycotting a party because a man offered his house just
    doesn't make sense to me. Maybe we don't always agree with men (the
    generic) but this seems to carry it too far.  Perhaps I shouldn't
    use houses at all, most of them were build by men.

    In another note(I don't remember which topic) someone made a
    statement about not being PC if you weren't a lesbian. I'm not a
    sepratist, I want to learn to live with men. Sure there I times I
    don't care to share certain things with them, those aren't the sort
    of things I share in a public notesfile anyway. There are truths
    that men don't want to hear. There's a few I'm not eager to hear
    myself. That's HUMAN nature. We all have a somewhat idealized image
    of who we are that can take a beating when certain truths emerge.

    Men have had the upper hand for a long time and retraining an entire
    generation takes time. I'm having trouble myself with not defering
    to men to make them happy. Whether it's gender or culture I can't
    say (too close to the problem to see clearly). I can say what I feel
    to men I don't care about but with men I care about I find myself
    wanting to please them and make them happy. If I only speak to women
    about this I don't fix the problem! How can I learn to be free to
    speak to the men I care about if I don't get any practice? Isn't
    that what a lot of our discussions come down to, practice at saying
    what we feel to men who may not agree but whose opinions we value?
    (well, some of whose opinions we value :*))

    I dislike the feeling I have sometimes that somehow I'm a traitor to
    women because I like men. Where does that get us? liesl

    Re-reading this string, the companion string, and the side trips to
    processing, I've been attempting to formulate a coherent response for
    more than a week now.  I occurs to me that I have been attempting to
    force several issues into a homogeneous whole and that while they are
    part and parcel of what the _me_ is, I am a multitude.
    
    the Patriarchy:
    
    It has been my experience that I have suffered the most abuse from
    women when I go against the established Way.  This does not, not, not
    say that men have been helpful.  I firmly believe that the cycle can
    only be broken when women empower themselves.   Saying 'he won't let
    me' and believing in the power behind it, taking it to heart, causes
    more regression and repression than five men could hope to cause.
    
    woman-space and womannotes:
    
    Woman space is important.  I can always find it, now that I've learned
    the way of it, and it seldom fails to re-vitalise.  I do not look for
    woman-space here.  It does not sadden me that I cannot find it here. 
    It _does_ sadden me that there are those who despair of it because it
    is not here.
    
    'warning', 'warning':
    
    I am somewhat taken aback to see myself described as part of an
    un-official goon-squad [I know that no names were used] warning unwary
    men of the terrors of political unorthodoxy here in womannotes.  But
    yes I have indeed pointed out to persons of both sexes that there
    are certain flag-like terms that provoke a reaction to form instead of
    content thereby obscuring the discussion behind semantic quibbles. 
    
    radical feminism?:
    
    Oh dear.  [Having been raped, castration sounds pretty good to me, but I
    wouldn't want to see it made law.]  I seem to be a part of that lunatic
    fringe that sees more value in asking 'Why ...?' than 'why doesn't
    he...?' 
    
    women/men and effects upon my life:
    
    When I look at the relationships that have helped to shape me, there
    are some pretty brutal truths that I have had to face and have shied
    away from presenting head-on in this file.
    
    1.  Throughout most of my life, men _liked_ me and women did not.
        And, yes, I do mean _like_.  Men were more willing to accept the
        unexpected in me, and I was going through some _serious_ rebellion. 
    
    2.  More women than men have told me that I have no _right_ to an
        opinion or voice.  Oh, sure, men have dished some pretty tough
        sh*t at my opinions and values, but _rarely_ challenged my basic
        right to _have_ them.
    
    Given my early experience, I was a good deal more willing to risk my
    fragile emergence at the hands of masculine neglect or ridicule, rather
    than at the hands of feminine repudiation and hostility.  For me women
    were 'the Adversary' more for what I would _not_ compete for than what
    I would.
    
    Then I _needed_ the approval of women and didn't get it.  That men, for
    the most part, didn't approve either bothered me very little as I
    didn't see the need for men to approve of my way of being a woman.
    
    Women are a very special part of my life now.  My relationships with
    women bring a fullness and depth of experience to my life that was
    previously lacking.  This is not to say 'once you find women, you'll
    never go back' because, for me, that's not truth.   But it does say
    that the experience and viewpoints of women can be of incomparable
    value to me in my experience as a woman.  No, to this day many women
    do not approve of me; but I have found more women who understand
    'acceptance' than I have men.
    
    men in general:
    
    I like having them around -- some more than others.  I don't think they
    have a place in _every_ context and I have days when I think they
    should all take a hike to another context, but it doesn't last.
    
    
      Ann

I have been a DEC employee for almost two years now and I've only 
answered womannotes twice.  Once when I started working here, and 
it was about the same issue - men in the womannotes file.  I 
didn't understand it then and I still don't.  When I see the 
title of "womannotes" what comes to mind is a file where women 
communicate with each other and when I look at "mennotes", vice 
versa.  I was and still am very surprised to find that 
men answer very personal topics - topics that I feel only 
relate to women - gyn, child-birth, woman's nipples,etc.  

The first time I responded angrily, and I was told I was shouting 
(I used caps), little did I know that's exactly what I wanted to do.  
I suggested then but not very clearly, that we should have an 
"us" file.  What I mean by that is a "people- wm-men" file where 
we can discuss topics that we both share.  

I don't respond in the wmnotes file because I feel I have to 
censor what I say.  I'm not ready to be "flamed" at. I prefer to 
have my life run smoothly and not put myself in an inflammatory 
position unless I choose to. My experience is that in the 
file, what is written, cannot be explained or made perfectly 
clear to everyone, and sometimes one little word causes *flames* 
by an irate male who it feels to me is waiting to attack.  Even 
here I feel, should I have said "an irate male" what kind of 
reaction will these two words cause.  

>What I mean by that is a "people- wm-men" file where 
>we can discuss topics that we both share.  
    
    We have that it's called Human_Relations, hit KP7 if you don't aready
    have it in your note book.
    
    
    Gail