Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    So, in reply to the note that indicated one might not *want*
    "comforting"...
    
    Yes, certainly. My comment was apropos to the article I had mentioned.
    But certainly, whether we cry because of sadness, anger, frustration,
    or whatever...the feelings are definitely not supported in the
    workplace. With the possible exception of male anger, on ocassion.
    
    And what is it about some feelings that we derail them into crying?
    I mean, I cry when I get angry and frustrated, when what I really want
    to do is *throw* something. Or some*one*! Or growl. Imagine a meeting
    in which a woman *growls* in anger. Hoo-eee! Say goodbye to your
    career, Mama. 
    
    I still say that an atmosphere in which we have to ignore/hide/push
    away our feelings creates dis-ease.
    
    Dawn
    

    re .1...and growling...on a light note
    
    My two year old was in a rotten mood this morning when we arrived at
    daycare.  As we went to put her lunch away, a three year old boy ran
    over and grabbed for her lunch bag.  She turned around and growled at
    him...a great big from the gut growl.  Reading your note made me
    appreciate what an accurate expression of her feelings at the moment
    that growl was.
    
    Now, granted, the world would be insane if we all expressed our
    feelings as quickly as two year olds...but we might be abit better off
    if we were as quick to identify what we felt, and what we'd like to do
    about it.
    
    Susan

    I have been having some serious problems at home. Last night at
    school I was telling a classmate why I missed class on Tuesday.
    Before I could finish a guy in the next row made a stupid off-the
    cuff comment. At any other time it would have been funny, but I
    got really upset and ran crying from the room. I pulled myself
    together in the ladies room, got a drink of water and went back to class.
    When I got back, no one asked what was wrong, if I was okay or anything.
    Infact there was just this horrible, embarassed silence. 
    
    I realize that crying is not something one does by choice, but I
    felt stupid and almost guilty for the emotional outburst. It seems
    to me that it's socially unacceptable to cry anywhere in public, 
    not just at work (although at least at work there's EAP...)
    
    Dee                
    
                     

    When the question of responding to crying came up, I envisioned
    myself in that situation.  I saw myself handing the cry-er a
    clean Kleenex(R) and assuring her (in this visualization) that
    she was quite justified in crying.  That is my idea of comforting.
    
    One of the written responses said that the writer would not want
    comforting if she were crying from anger or frustration.
    
    So.  Is it just that she and I define "comfort" differently, or
    (as seems likely giving my general social eptitude) would I just
    not be considered a successful comforter?
    
    							Ann B.

    That level of comfort sounds about right to me...

The following entry has been written by a member of our community
who wishes to remain anonymous. 

Bonnie J
=wn= comod

_______________________________________________________________________

Male anger in the workplace is far more acceptable than nearly any intense 
emotion displayed by a women.

Just yesterday, I witnessed two men at Digital rake a woman over the coals (in 
semi-private) for a suggestion she'd made at a group meeting.  They made 
degrading comments about her work and brought up every petty criticism they'd 
ever had about her with explosive verbal fury (later admitting to her that it 
was all the result of her input at the meeting.)

One man then blew up a story about an incident (while the other man chimed in 
with a grand description about his role in what had transpired.)  When I 
checked into some documentation about the facts later, not only was the first 
man exaggerating quite a bit - it turned out that the second man was on 
vacation that day (and wasn't even there!)  

The day of the incident was only a week prior to the blow-up, so it should 
have been easy enough to remember whether or not one was present during an 
incident.  The second man's memory about an event he hadn't witnessed was 
greatly embellished by _his_ anger.

What did the woman do?  She tried to defend herself at first, but later
spoke calmly and reasonably (apologizing for making a comment at the meeting)
when her defense only made them angrier.  She didn't appear anywhere near
tears, but it was obvious (to me) that she was suppressing anger of her own.

No, these men won't pay a price for having railed at a woman co-worker.  It's 
"how they are" - per their words.  It's to be expected when they have a strong 
objection to something a woman suggests at a meeting, and she won't complain.

No, I won't step forward to do anything about it.  I'm a woman.  I can't afford 
to say that the blow-up made _me_ angry to watch it (except privately to her.)

    
    Ann,
    
    If I cried in your presence, and you handed me a tissue, and said
    that you thought I was justified in being upset, I would feel
    comforted and acknowledged.  Feeling acknowledged is the important 
    thing to me.  Because of the taboos against crying in some
    settings, it also makes me feel better if the person lets me know
    that I haven't frightened her by crying.
    
    I went to a Stone Center lecture recently on women's anger,
    and one of the points that was made was that our culture often
    sees emotion as something that gets in the way of communication
    instead of as part of the communication.  But if you think about
    it crying (or growling or yelling) can give us as much or more
    information than the words in the communication.
    
    Dawn, interesting question about why we women sometimes cry when
    we're really feeling angry.  It seems that the one emotion that
    women are allowed to express is sadness, so maybe that's our default --
    if emotional, then cry.  Another possibility I can see is that maybe
    when we get angry, it really makes us sad, because we fear that we
    are risking a break in a relationship, e.g, she won't like me if
    she knows I'm angry.
    
    Justine

    Ann,
    
    I think our definitions of "comfort" were different.  The image I got
    at the word "comfort" involved sympathy and mothering.  Those elements
    would be highly distressing to me in a work situation, particularly
    if other people were present.
    
    My experience is that many people feel a social obligation to offer
    sympathy when they see tears.  Some become angry when they see tears,
    believing it to be a ploy to deflect an attack by demanding sympathy.
    "Crying to get your own way", as it were.  In my opinion, the cause
    of their anger is not the tears, but the misguided expectation that
    tears demand sympathy from anyone present.  Getting people to consider
    this possibility is a difficult task, however.
    
    Beth

I think some people (men in particular) have the stereotype that if a
woman is crying it is because she is trying to get her way, and using the
tears to manipulate the person she is with.

I know women who do this, unfortunately.  The stereotype makes it
awkward when you are with someone who is crying, because you (generic,
on if it applies) have a war between "Comfort, console and appease"
and "Don't reward manipulative and attention-getting behavior."

I have never cried at work, but I remember a few times crying in an
academic setting, which is also supposed to be somewhat "professional".
One time I got a test back that I had studied *very* *hard* for, with
a bad grade.  I was doing poorly in the class, and needed that grade
very badly.  I thought one of the questions (of four!) had been graded
unfairly and I went up after class to talk to the prof (I should have
waited till I was more calm.)  When he didn't agree that the question
was graded wrong, I got angry and started leaking tears.  I could tell 
by the exasperated tone in his voice, and refusal to listen to me further,
that he thought I was trying to use a "damsel in distress" tactic to get
him to give me a better grade.  [BTW, I aced the final and got a B in
the class!  :-)]

D! (who wouldn't dream of crying at work, because she fears appearing 
    "weak" more than just about anything.)

    
    D!,
    
    i wouldn't dream of crying at work for the same reasons you expressed.
    
    i have found though, that there have been times, at work, when i have
    been unable to control this reaction. the few times this has happened,
    the crying was a result of pretty extreme anger.  then i get angry at
    myself for not staying "in control".  
    
    some of the previous replies indicate that crying out of anger may be
    alot more commonplace than i had considered. i don't feel quite as
    strongly, now, that "i am the only one who ever loses it this way".
    
    ~robin

    I don't view crying as being "weak."  I view it as an expression
    of human emotion.  If something in my life is bothering me so
    much that I feel like crying then I think I have a right to cry.
     Although, I certainly don't go looking for opportunities to burst
    into tears in public.
    
    I have cried at work on several different occasions.  (But, I have
    been working for a long time - 23 yrs.)  Usually I was crying over
    something in my personal life, and I have often experienced the
    same sense as Dee, that other people were horribly embarrassed by
    my lack of composure.  It really sort of disgusts me that most people
    are so embarrassed by tears.  We're all human and we have feelings
    and sometimes we can't help but cry.  Why try to pretend we're all
    robots?
    
    Once last year a male friend, started crying while he was talking
    about something, while I was out having a drink with him, and I
    was ashamed to realize that I did feel embarrassed to be sitting
    in a restaurant with a man who was crying.  I found that I was less
    comfortable with that than if it had been a girlfriend.  I've had
    many girlfriends cry while telling me upsetting things (usually about
    men), but when confronted with a male friend crying I found myself
    looking away in embarrassment wondering how to react.  

    I always try not to cry in public, though, because my ex-boyfriend
    used to tell me that I should never cry in public because crying
    (he said) made me look "old and ugly."  He said, "You should never
    cry in front of people because you look old and ugly when you cry."
     God forbid, I should ever get so upset that I didn't look attractive
    to men, right?
    
    Lorna
    

    Men aren't taught/trained/experienced in expressing distressful
    emotions. We're taught to convert it into other things. If someone
    says something hurtful to me they get stony silence, or told to
    f* off or possibly a fist in the face. They damn sure aren't going
    to see me cry. 
    
    I think the underlying message men get is that if someone is
    hurting you, it's because they're *trying to*, and showing
    hurt is granting them a victory. (Sort of a "never attribute to
    stupidity what can be blamed on malice" philosophy. Unhealthy.)
    
    Theory: maybe women aren't taught this because society already 
    figures them for born losers. 

    Dana

    Thanks to everyone who let me know that I don't live my *entire*
    life wearing two left boots.
    
    							Ann B.

    I'm grateful crying is in the female domain.  There's all those studies
    demonstrating that emotional tears have components that "there's
    something in my eye" tears don't have, indicating that emotional tears
    are cleansing your system.  
    
    I only wish I felt better about crying in public.  I tend to cry
    privately about things I feel sad about.  When I inadvertently cry in
    front of others, it's usually because I feel frustrated or angry or
    helpless.
    
    Wednesday night I cried in public out of frustration (I was hopelessly
    lost on a campus, an hour late for a final exam).  Crying didn't make
    me feel better, but I seriously wonder how much worse I would have felt
    if I had felt OBLIGATED not to cry...if I had felt GUILTY or less of a
    good person for wanting to cry.
    
    Pam

 I have sort of been conditioned to not cry (I guess). There are times when I
feel that I ought to cry but the impulse to cry isn't there. It's a wierd 
feeling, especially when people around _expect_ you to cry and you are sitting
there, hurting like hell on the inside but looking relatively unmoved on
the outside. Starnge as it sounds, I've had to force myswelf to cry on occasion.
Weird.

 I do cry sometimes, but it's very rare. What's strange is that I am often on
the verge of tears, sometimes for relatively stupid reasons. I often have tears
welling up in my eyes over sad things, or sports, or what have you. But when I 
have a good reason to cry, the tears rarely come. 

 The Doctah

I usually go out and take a walk if I need to cry (usually over a
woman!).  I suppose it might be embarrassing if someone saw me but I
can't say I care all that much about stuff like that anymore.

I haven't had a good cry in a while (maybe because I've been single
for the last 10 months!).  (Now there's something to cry about).  The
last good one I had was reading this book called Alex by Frank Duford.
It's wonderful book about his wonderful daughter who died for cystic
fibrous.  Her message of unconditional love was truly inspirational.  I
almost like to cry; it feels like a wonderful release to me.


john

I, too, wouldn't dream of crying at work ... but I've done it.  Not in meetings,
or in discussions, or 'in public'.

Tears are often just as cathartic as shreiking or cursing, and they are _ever_
so much quieter.  I learned early that showing anger or frustration at work
would cost me dearly in terms of credibility.  I learned soon after that
suppressing strong emotions tends to make me ineffective.  When I'm pushed to
the brink of eruption, I just excuse myself for a moment, get someplace away
from eyes, tear up for the release, wipe dry and return -- in control.

I guesss that I am 'hiding' my tears, but I'm not ashamed of them because
I've made them work _for_ me [in a non-manipulative way].

  Ann

{re.12 'born losers'? - ouch]

    I HATE crying in public. A young girl once told me that she thought 
    that crying in front of someone was like getting sick in front of them.
    In other words, if you have to do it, go ahead but no one wants to see
    it. How sad that she should think that way,
    A good cry over a sad movie or something is a bit different, John. (Did 
    you see that movie with Shirley McLaine, Debra Winger and Jack Nichelson? 
    What a tear jerker. Or Kramer vs Kramer.)
    
    It is very difficult for me to react when a man cries. Probably because
    the men I've encountered don't feel comfortable with their crying.
    
    Kate
    

    It seems to me:
    - A man can climb up on a table and swear in anger with no apparent
      negative effect on his job.
    - A woman who cries in anger (having been brought up *not* to express 
      anger by swearing, pounding her fists, etc.) is considered to be
      (a) childish, (b) manipulative, (c) suffering from PMS or menstrual
      cramps and therefore "not herself."
    
    In fact, my first evaluation of my *own* tears is "what time of the
    month is it?"  
    
    Many years ago I posited the hypothesis that if I could learn to be
    more assertive and say "No" to unfair work-requests during
    hormonally-stable times, I might have less need to "overreact" during
    "those times."   
    
    Conclusion:  There is *no* socially acceptable way for a woman to
    exress strong anger in a work situation -- both swearing and crying are
    considered inappropriate.
    
    Nancy

    In re: .19
    
    In the environments I have worked in, the direct expression of anger
    through tantrums has been about equally uncommon and unwelcome whether
    from men or women, including jumping on tables, swearing, pounding
    fists.  I'm talking about public anger, not 1-on-1 behind closed doors
    anger, where male or female tantrums are much more accepted (especially
    when directed at some third party!).
    
    It is probably true that the people who did indulge in tantrums were
    almost all men.  Yet most men feel a need to conceal or redirect
    expressions of anger as much as most women do.
    
    I think I would also be very slow to imagine that tears at work - from
    woman or man - were manipulative.  I guess the anti-crying taboo seems
    sufficiently strong and universal that I would always start out
    assuming tears were involuntary.
    
    			- Bruce

    This is where I use the ladies loo wherever possible.  The third one
    down has the door on only one hinge (^'
    
    If I am under a lot of pressure/stress at work I tend to feel the tears
    begin to well quite easily and go for a walk downtown for 10 minutes. 
    But there was an incident at work last week that made me thankful for
    my swearing (constantly) and phone banging/door slamming!
    
    One of the people I have to deal with constantly lives very much on the
    edge, suffers badly from stress but holds it in.  I just happened to be
    in her box at the wrong time (actually its been twice now!) last week
    and she let loose *at* me.  In fact when I walked away after calmly
    answering her she chased me up the stairs screaming to speak to my
    manager.
    
    Anyway I went home so upset, crying in the car, sleepless night, etc. 
    Came in next morning, spoke to my manager, with backup from the four
    people who heard all this screaming and we sorted out our problems with
    this person.  When she came in next day, she told my manager, it wasn't
    as bad as she thought yesterday.  Okay, for her, I said, I only lost a
    night's sleep and two days of worrying what on earth I had done.
    
    She unfortunaly is one of those people who do no wrong, its everybody
    elses fault.  Well, this time we caught her out, and to cover up she let
    go.  Its very funny now, coz we communicate by em only.  I do feel for her,
    but she's going to have to come to terms with her problem. 
    
    There does seem to be the average amount of women crying in our group,
    but then we are the Communications Group, all creative, all very
    strong.
    
    My answer has always been, I can talk and cry at the same time, are you
    able to deal with that!...Most often they can.
    
    ...dale

    I don't particulary like them in the work place, but if they happen, be
    them men or women, so what?

    Why do people make such a big deal out of an emotional response.. As a
    manager, you certainly know that the person is upset, and *usually*
    not listen to you - they are listening in their mind to the thing that
    upset them enough to hit the tear level.  In people who don't cry, but
    get angry inside, they have also hit that point, but you don't know
    that the meeting is now a waste of time.

    If you are ever in that situation, the best thing for either party to
    do is to shut down the meeting, and reconvene at a later time - that
    way all parties have had a chance to recompose themselves.

    Some people cuss, some people scream, some cry, some stop listening...
    its **all** the same emotional response, it just takes some
    understanding of that reality, once you understand it for what it is,
    just go forward, and ignore/do with the tears the same way you would do
    with a "yell-er", let them work it through their system, in an isolated
    place, and then go from there...

    BTW: Given all the above, I'd much rather have a "cry-er" emotion person
    work for me that an screamer/cusser/thrower...  a person who crys is
    usually much more at peace with their emotional levels. 

    I've cried any number of times at the office, but rarely from
    frustration at work.  It's usually because of some trauma I've suffered
    at home.  I don't try to stop the tears.   I let them go and get
    it over with because it is within me to cry at that point.  When
    these moments come, I will usually drift off to a quiet, private
    spot and cry until I stop.  Sometimes, a friend will see me and
    we'll talk about it and sometimes not.  I have no reason to feel
    ashamed because it is within me to feel sad, angry, hurt or unhappy.
    If others feel uncomfortable, it is their problem, but I will be
    the person I am, not what others expect me to be.
    
    From what I've heard, tears are a healthy sign.  Frustrations, stress,
    anxiety, and anger cause unhealthy chemical reactions in the body,
    and crying is a form of release for some of those chemicals.  They
    are in the tears.  This may very well explain why crying brings
    such a sense of release after the tears are done.
    
    One "plus" I've experienced from being open (i.e. unashamed) about
    my tears, is that others in the office have turned to me for comfort
    because they know they don't need to feel ashamed around me.  It
    has helped to remind me that we're all human beings, and each of
    us needs caring, kindness and understanding.
    
    Tears may not be preferred, but sometimes they are a valid cartharsis.
    
    Barb

    I think if a woman is highly respected and well liked and seen as
    competent other people will rationalize away her crying as long as it's
    not manipulative and doesn't occur often.
    
    I think that if a woman is seen as 'slightly unstable' or 'erratic' or
    is not highly trusted, the crying will be subtly held against her and
    used to further the negative perception.
    
    I think this is true in this culture of many 'marginal' behaviors that
    are sometimes made a big deal of and sometimes explained away.  I think
    most people like to have congruent perceptions of other people, and
    will do whatever they can to maintain them.
    
    On the other hand, I think if you're in a very competitive group, or in
    a role where you have to act like you 'eat glass for breakfast', crying
    would be very threatening no matter how positively you're perceived. In
    those settings, the rewards and respect apparently go to those who can
    maintain composure, control and power under duress.
    
    Holly
    
      

You (pl.) are right - I had beenthinking fo crying at work only in response
to work-related pressures and problems.  I can't imagine doing that, 
because it would be viewed as inability to handle a "real job", and I
couldn't stand that.

But crying at work due to unrelated/personal problems?  Yeah, I've done that,
I guess my feelings at the time were that I didn't care what anyone thought -
I mean, if something were bad enough that it would force tears from me at 
work, I would be too wrapped up in myself to be thinking about what people
who think of me.

I remember once finding out about the death of a good friend of mine at work.
With tears streaming down my face, I walked to my boss's office and told him
that I would be leaving for the day.  I got a lot of strange looks, but no
one gave me a hard time about it, they could see that I was upset and that it
had nothing to do with them. 

D!