Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Slip it up your sleeve.
    
    						Ann B.

    A radical thought!

    Use OB tampons (they don't have applicators) and you can carry them
    around in your pockets all day.
    
    Lisa

    Playtex puts out "playtex portables" which are compact tampons.
    They fit right in your pocket or can be carried indicretely in
    your hand. Either that or pay 25 cents in the machine (if it is
    working that day, and you don't mind being ripped off).
    
    Dee

    
    Here in HLO, things are a dime a piece. But tampons are only regular,
    and on "super" days, its a pain.
    
    Since I'm usually in jeans, I just put it in my pocket; pad or tampon.
    When I've been pocketless, I've done the palming routine as well as the
    "up-the-sleeve". But the bathroom is close.
    
    If you put a tampon in your hand and close all but two fingers around
    it or better still, cross your arms over your chest with the tampon
    hand hidden, NOONE will know!  :-)

And what if someone stops to talk to you? Or, heaven forbid, _hands_ you
something? (Obviously, several alternatives reduces to Ellen's reply).

Here in BXB, they're free! But I stick to my name brands.
	Mez

    re .6
    
    If someone stops me halfway and tries to "hand" me somthing, I just
    say, "Ooops, I'm in a rush, please, I'll stop by the office in a
    second. I must get to the bathroom now."

>Here in BXB, they're free! But I stick to my name brands.

You get free tampons???  How did they manage that?  Boy, life in the
down there in ole Taxachusetts must be posh! :-)  What, do they have
a tampon dispenser next to the paper towel and soap dispenser??

(They are only 5 cents up here in beautiful tax-free ZKO.)

D!

>You get free tampons???  How did they manage that?  

I did it! (pat, pat :-). I had a topic in V1 called "Protecting that which is
Feminine" and bitched about the fact that BB&N and IBM had free tampons and
pads, but we didn't.

Then I bitched to the guy who ran facilities at Littleton. At first he thought
I was yanking his chain; I used my impressive logic and inter-personal
comminication skills to get him to bring it to his boss. His boss is a woman,
and dealing with real money in coin-denominations turned out to be a big
hassle. I don't know that they ever did it in LTN, because they rent those, but
feminine protection is free in BXB. Try it at your site! I can probably give
you contact names here. The points that seemed to help were:

	Dealing with real money was a known pain already
	
	Dave had tried leaving out a bunch, and they all got scooped up.
	I told him of course; in an emergency, you want some around.
	If they were around all the time, they wouldn't be.
	See if you can get a trial period [as it were].

	The toilet paper, seat cover, soap anology

	Name brand loyalty. Remind him [if it is a him; a her will already
	know] that the toilet paper at home is _far_ superior to what
	we get a work. The anology holds for feminine protection; but
	when you're caught lacking, you really can't do without.

	Other companies (BB&N and IBM for sure) and other sites (BXB)
	do it.

    Mez

    
    	I don't wear long sleeves and I refuse to pretend I don't get
    	a period and don't have a need for tampons, nor do I worry too
    	much that I'll pass someone who's never seen one before and'll
    	drop into a dead faint at the glimpse of a small white-wrapped
    	cylindrical object, so I always just take one out of my purse
    	or big leather bag and with tamp-in-hand walk into a restroom.
    
    	Periods happen.  It's nothing to hide or be ashamed of.
    
    	Carla
    

    I try to buy business clothes with pockets.  This 
    is especially useful when I am on the floor at a 
    trade show with neither a briefcase nor a 
    pocket book and need to duck out frequently (every
    hour) to the ladies room.  I can also carry a
    lipstick in a pocket and a dollar for a cup of
    tea (trade show price).
    
    I also have a small leather pouch that holds 4
    tampons and a pad.  I use this in a briefcase and
    carry it to the ladies room.  It keeps the tampons
    neatly together and clean.  OB and similar small 
    designs are great, but not adequate for my heaviest 
    day, when I need super super tampon PLUS pad.
    
    Pat

    RE:-1
    Right on, Carla!!
    
    Kate
    

They're free at TTB too.  And no taxes.

    This isn't a real practical answer, but this topic has piqued
    my creativity.  You could always stuff them in a tall coffee
    mug and walk down the hall with _that_.  I mean, lots of people
    carry coffee mugs around, right?  Or put it in an M&M bag...

    My favorite is when I'm paying for groceries, reach in and pull out my
    wallet and a couple tampons go skittering across the counter ... I
    laugh; the female clerk is aghast, and the male customer behind me
    tries to study the crack on the floor while suppressing a snicker.
    
    Grins

    re: .16 (the grocery line)
    
    Ah, what a great memory you brought back, Marge.  When I was younger
    I used to work in a supermarket and would reguarly catch register
    duty.  One of the great joys we (Grocery Clerks From Hell) would
    take would be when a male victi, uh, customer would come into the
    check-out line with an box of tampons missing a price tag.  Only
    one civil thing to do in such a situation. . .yell across the 
    store, "Hey, Ernie - what's the price on 40 Tampax regulars?"
    
    Gangs of fun!
    
    Steve

    Hee hee!  Reminds me of an incident in days past when I was working at
    another company that was blessed by a visit from the British Princess
    Anne.  (Ring a bell, Carla?)  Security was *beefed* up and all bags and 
    concealed whatevers where thoroughly searched as we entered the building.  
    My supervisor was waiting impatiently while her purse was being inspected 
    and one of the guards pointed to a smallish cylindrical object and 
    *seriously* inquired of its contents.  She grabbed the tampon, pointed at 
    him and said "Don't move or I'll pull the string!"
    
    He just stared at her with his mouth open while she walked away.
    
    ;)
    
    Carol

Suit jacket pockets are a good size -- can also hold a comb and
all the badges (DECbadge, customer badges) needed for the Field-Woman
on the go.
:-)
	MKV

    I never carry a purse to work, but I do use the pockets of whatever I'm
    wearing...  I *absolutely*  **refuse** to buy anything unless it has
    pockets in it, so, I always put 'em in a pocket...
    
    G

    I am amazed at this string of replies.
    
    I thought I was the one female in the world who did not LOVE to carry
    large pocketbooks around.  It seems that if  you have a little one then
    you decide to carry more and then they get progressively bigger so in
    1970 I went on strike and haven't carried one since.  I have jacket
    pockets in winter and summer skirt pockets.  I have a slim metel holder
    for license and health cards etc, and if it doesn't fit in a pocket I
    don't carry it.  Sort of along the line - are the clothes easy to
    maintain, if yes - then buy; else no buy.
    
    Cathy

    	RE: 879.18
    
    	I can't help it. That reply has me rolling.
    
    	Scott

    Maybe being male accounts for my lack of perspective. But from the
    replies, with the exception of Carla's, I have the following
    curiosities:
    
    	1) Is having a period a shamefull event?
    	2) If so please enlighten me as to why.?
    	3) If not, whats the big deal with being seen with 
    	   those "forbidden" products?
    
    Or is this one of those "women" things men don't understand???
    
    S.B.

    You wouldn't believe the reactions I'm having to this. 
    
    Is a period a shameful event? To some women, yes. It is something that
    the body does which is messy, sometimes painful, and over which we have
    insufficient control. It occurs in a region of our bodies which many of
    us know too little about and are uncomfortable with, a region which is
    close to the same region where urination and defecation take place, and
    we are taught that those things are not discussed.
    
    A woman's period has associated with it hormonal changes which can
    affect her in many different ways, some of them rather awkward. The
    hormonal changes can cause emotional upheaval, swelling, discomfort,
    increased sexual energy and increased creativity among the documented
    list. Many of these things are not viewed positively by society, and
    therefore it is felt that the visible indicator of these emotional
    upheavals is best kept quiet.
    
    Last of all, a woman's period is one of the most DIFFERENT things about
    her, from her male counterparts. In the workplace, this type of difference
    is not easily valued, it is not one which the average woman flaunts
    with great gusto... 

    
    	There's a _big_ difference between flaunting one's menstrual
    	cycles and simply accepting nature.  
    
    	I don't hang a big red banner on my cubicle wall during "that 
    	time of the month" nor do I clandestinely creep in and out of 
    	women's restrooms flushing toilets so no one will think I may
    	be <gasp!> swapping cotton.
    
    	I'm so surprised at the attitude I'm finding on this topic in
    	here!  On one hand we have feminists advocating our rightness
    	and equality in the world, and on the other I read a suggestion 
    	that there are some women who feel shame about their femininity.
    
    	Carla
    

    
    It's bothered me for a long time that women are required to
    pay for their tampons and napkins (when in a public facility that
    is).  The general population doesn't  pay for toilet paper does
    it?    And are tampons/napkins any less important?  No.  The only 
    difference is that *women only* use them. (AHA!)  
                                    
    (Oh an aside, while in TAY once, I actually saw a tampon/napkin
    dispenser that did not charge for its goods.  Can we make this
    a corporate wide benefit?)
    
    OK, and while on the subject.  Why is it the stupid dispensor only
    takes dimes?  Why is it designed so that if there are none left,
    the dime is lost (that is a real dilemma if it's the last dime)?
    And for heavens sake, why is the dispenser designed so that in
    order to reach in and get the tampon/napkin, one must risk
    cutting open the top on the hand on the cute little sharp edged
    'lip'?
    
    Maia
    
    

    I never carry a pktbook around the building, nor do I carry tampon in
    hand when heading for the restroom.  I don't have a hangup about
    this but feel my personal hygiene isn't the business of the entire
    building.  I simply carry in pocket or slip it right at the waist of 
    my skirt or pants.  I never thought of using my sleeve!  Good idea!
    
    When I was lifeguarding during summers thru college, female guards had to 
    walk past the rather large pool area from the lockerroom to the women's
    room and considering that we wore bathing suits all day - this was
    rather difficult.  I used to stick the tampon in my bra-area and hope
    that I didn't have to jump in for a rescue when on a mission!!
    
    On the lighter side.....during high school I worked at the local
    pharmacy part time and one of the pharmacists there was a regular
    comedian.  Picture my most embarrassing moment......I was 16 years old
    and an older man was purchasing a package of condoms.  Not sure if
    these were a taxable item or not I turned to this pharmacist and asked
    "is there a tax on these things"....to which he replied.."hell no, 
    they stay on all by themselves!!!!"
             

    re: .23
    
    Another possible source of embarrassment during a woman's period is odor.
    Since men in my husband's family refer to the "two things that smell
    like dead fish -- and one of them is dead fish (ha, ha, snicker)," I
    don't like to display any *visual* cues that might cause anyone around
    me to *sniff* (*just in case*)!  So yeah, it's still a source of messy,
    embarrassment, something to be kept personal and private!

    
    Carla, I don't know if you've misunderstood me or not. I did not mean
    to indicate that by not hiding your personal hygiene, you are flaunting
    your menstrual cycles. But I think you're blinding yourself to reality
    if you think that the women of the world, or of America, with the long
    history of prudery and Victorian convention that we are just beginning
    to emerge from are going to feel comfortable being open about something
    as personal as personal hygiene. 
    
    It is a very real thing that the menstrual cycle is probably the most
    gender differentiating function of our bodies. And for several
    MILLENIUM has been a source of confusion and mystery. There are a lot
    of taboos associated with it, and they're just not going to immediately
    disappear.
    
    I am not ASHAMED of my period. But I am frequently confronted with the
    fact that it is not fully within my control. If you've ever stained a
    pair of good white pants, if you've ever not fit into a dress because
    your waist blew up by two inches, if you've ever had to forego a
    swimming party because you didn't use tampons, and HEAVEN FORBID you
    couldn't afford to just go in your suit 'cause the guys in their
    ignorance might throw you in, perhaps you would remember that the
    regular flow of blood is not a pleasant sight.
    
    Yes, you can play it off, or if you're mature, you can say "Well, what
    do you expect! I'm MENSTRUATING!" But the average teen cannot do this.
    And I can assure you its not taught in Feminist Power 101. Maybe it
    should be, but then, there are a lot of women who aren't going to take
    the course.
    
    Look at it for what it is. Menstruation is a bloody discharge. And
    blood makes a lot of people squirm. It sure kept ME out of medicine!
    
    In fact, I have yet to meet a woman who considers menstruation a
    pleasant experience. If you have a positive adjective that you would
    like to couple with the phenomenon, please share it. I've gotten used
    to it, but I haven't grown to love or look forward to it... (with the
    one exception of the possibility of missing it.)

>but I haven't grown to love or look forward to it... (with the
>    one exception of the possibility of missing it.)
 
    Yeah- whne it's late, you can't wait for it to start, but once it
    starts, you can't wait for it to stop.          

    My motto has always been, "Better to have than have not!!!!".

    re: .30 - bingo!~
    
    I think that the menstrual cycle ("menstrual cycle" - hah! I wish
    I could trade it in for a moped!.....*sorry*)....is one of the biggest
    annoyances in my life.  If I wasn't concerned about pregnancy and
    I didn't get the moodswings and depressions and bleeding, I'd be
    much happier these days .  There's not a whole lot I can do about it though.
    Personally, I feel about a skillion times less sexy and "together"
    when I am PMSsy or have my period (as opposed to other times when
    I just "thrum" with excitement and coherency, right?).....because
    I'm depressed and full of angst about every little thing when I
    have PMS, and I'm *bleeding* goddammit when I have my period.  Somehow
    I manage to hang tough, though, sticking that tampon in my pocket
    and marching off to deal with life's little necessesities....
    
    I dunno - how do men feel about women having their periods...distant?
    unsure?  no-opinion? squeamish?  grossed-out?   I mean it's just
    a hormonal flux of a few micrograms or whatever, followed by 2-3
    tablespoons of blood, but still...
    
    -Jody
    
    

    re: .29
    
    How 'bout a noun to go with it:  baby.  Ok, maybe it's 'cause I'm in
    that mode.  When I was 12 and first menstruating, I often thought of
    myself as some kind of biological high priestess because I could now
    make babies.  That thrill soon wore thin, but I wouldn't have it any
    other way.  

    How do men feel?  Given that every woman one will ever meet
    must handle menses, and yet that they all handle it in different
    ways (some with terrible pain and cramping, some with wildly swinging
    emotions, all with different flow levels, some lucky few with little 
    fuss)...this man feels mostly just a little confused.  
    
    I'm able to discuss the particulars with a woman if we are emotionally 
    close, and if she feels able to talk about it to me; thus I can learn 
    in what fashion woman "x" might be sensitive.  When an SO cannot
    talk about it at all, (in my limited experience) we just get moody
    together one week a month; edgier.  Its much better if I *know*
    her calendar (and it helps to be reminded, I'm not psychic) because
    then instead of me getting moody back, I can make a bigger effort.
    
    >  unsure?  no-opinion? squeamish?  grossed-out?   I mean it's just
                                 
    I've done emergency tampon/pad shopping.  I've delivered to the 
    bathroom.  Most of the mechanics are a no-op to my feelings.
                                         
    [squeamish people ought to skip over this last thought.]
    
    About the only gut-level reaction I have is a strong negative 
    reaction to the thought of oral sex during menses.  I don't think 
    I'll be able to fix that one, it goes pretty deep.  Other activities
    are fine by me (if mutually sought, of course; individual preferences
    vary widely in this area (curious)).
                                        
    DougO

    anecdote: [next reply if you're squeamish]
    
    
    one ex of mine loved it when i had my period - he actually *preferred* to
    give oral sex when the woman was in full flow.
    
    and i thought *nothing* could gross me out...

          re: .32 (Jody Bobbitt)
          
          >  I mean it's just a hormonal flux of a few micrograms or
          >  whatever, followed by 2-3 tablespoons of blood, but still...
          
          Is it really just 2-3 tbsp of blood?  Wow - seems like a lot
          more.
          
          This makes me think of a high school student I was playing
          basketball with who was complaining about his girlfriend's
          moodiness when she was "on the rag".  He asked me what was the
          _exact_ composition of menstrual blood.  I told him uterine
          lining and blood, but he apparently wanted to know the
          composition to the level of detail akin to the "contains:" list
          on the back of a shampoo bottle, and was not satisfied with my
          answer!
          
          Anybody have a reference that describes the composition of
          menstrual blood?
                                                            nancy b.
          

Safe sex reminder for the non-squeamish:

menstrual blood is a very big no-no nowadays; it's up there with semen 
as an unsafe bodily fluid to share.

    Living with three females that have periods, it's a pretty safe bet
    that at any given time, at least one of them will be having her period.
    And since two of them are still adolescents, the cycle is a little
    unpredictable. I think that only once have all three had concurrent
    periods- a stressful time for me!
    
    And all of them suffer from varying degrees of PMS as well.
    
    I feel bad that women have to deal with this. I can definitely
    understand how (even without pain) menses can affect moods.
    
    And I agree with Doug. Definite turnoff. (Could I say "Inconceivable?")
    
    Lots of sympathy from this guy.
    
    The Doctah

    *Some* studies indicate that women who live together (in dorms, harems,
    or what-have-you) eventually sort of self-regulate to being on the same
    cycle.  Have fun, Doctah!

    
    re: .39.  My sister and I used to cycle together.  Apparently, one
    woman is the dominant one, and the other will follow.  I think in our
    case, my sister was dominant, as I seemed to follow her irregularities 
    -- this would take a couple of months, but eventually, we'd cycle
    together again.
    
    I was wondering.  Do any of you women ever >gasp< take time off from
    work because of problems associated with menstruating?  I sometimes do,
    and always feel a little bit guilty for it.  (Because I should be able
    to "take it", or because I must be exaggerating the particular effect,
    making it worse than it is -- I'm sure I must be reacting to old messages, 
    old attitudes here...)
    
    I'm sitting at home in my bathrobe after a very disrupted night of
    sleeping due to cramps (so I slept late) and feeling guilty.  I'm not
    crampy now, so I'll probably log out and go into work for a half-day,
    but I was thinking about this while I was trying to go back to sleep at 
    4:30 this morning...
     
    CQ

Whenever I feel ill or tired, whether it's from my period, over-indulging the
night before, because I couldn't sleep well the night before (stress and
anger), or because I actually have microorganisms, I take the time I need.
Luckily, this doesn't happen very often. But I know what I'm worth at my best,
and I know what I'm worth at my worst, and the quicker I can get over my worst,
the more I'm worth.
	Mez

    Re: taking time off: 

    I normally don't, however, I know females who every month do. 

    The one thing regarding periods is I found last weekend, that while I
    was under an abnormal amount of stress (giving up my daughter), that 1)
    My period started a full week early (that hasn't happened since I was
    15!), and that I had the worst cramps that climbed all the way up my
    back, and all I wished for was a back rub!..  I'm never had cramps like
    that in my entire life!!! Plus the period seemed to go on forever, and
    wasn't the normal cycle I have.  

    As for regulating...  yep.. my daughters and I are all at the same
    time...  It seems like I'm forever buying Tampax!! :-)

	 RE: cycling together


	 Yep!  When I lived in the dorms with three other girls,
	 within two months we all had "Herman" (affectionate name)
	 together.  The funny thing is, I was the only one on the
	 Pill, and they all regulated to my cycle.....interesting.....



	 RE: cramps

	 I only get cramps when I'm stressed, other than that, Herman
	 is a minor annoyance for 1-2 days, if he comes at all....I do
	 get VERY bloated around that time, tho......


	 kat

>It seems like I'm forever buying Tampax!! :-)
 
    If that isn't an understatment. Sheesh! You'd think it was fun changing
    them or something. I always love the looks I get when I make an
    emergency run to the store for tampax. It's always like "These aren't
    for you are they????" :-)
    
     Almost as much fun as buying condoms. ;^)
    
    The Doctah            

    re .40, I know we already had a big discussion in regard to taking
    time off during menstruation.  This comment is not aimed at Christine,
    but I would really think that by now everyone would realize that
    some women do get very sick during their period whereas others feel
    no distress at all.  It is not fair to compare women who suffer
    great pain with women who suffer no pain at all, and say that the
    one's who do get sick shouldn't stay home.  Pain is pain, and sick
    is sick.  What difference does it make what causes it?  If I can't
    concentrate on work, or stand up straight because of pain, I'd rather
    be home in bed with a heating pad.  Most of the time I do just come
    into work and suffer, tho, because I only get 12 sick days a year
    being a WC2.  But, cramps have accounted for I'd say approximately
    90% of the sick time I have taken in my life since the age of 13.
     Incidentally, I've never been sick more than 3 days in my entire
    life something that I'm sure many women who don't take time off
    for their periods can't say.  I've never missed more than 3 working
    days in a row, and that was for strep throat and a double ear
    infection.  So, just because a woman winds up in bed with a heating
    pad during her period, on occasion, doesn't mean she's a hypochondriac.
    
    As far as walking down the hall at work with tampons or pads, I
    wish I had the guts to.  I don't see why we should have to hide
    them as though it were something to be ashamed of, and not a normal
    part of life.  
    
    I've also had them come spilling out of my pocketbook at the cash
    register in grocery stores.  I don't see why normal parts of life
    have to be thought of as embarrassing.
    
    Lorna

   Candid thought comming...... next unseen for the squeemish

   

   As a man, during "close" relationships, I don't mind assisting with
   the "application/removal" of such items....











   Joke comming...... next unseen for the squeemish

   


   A man is not a good soldier, if he is not willing to ride a bloody saddle.

   :-)

    
    re: .29
    
    	It probably won't surprise you to learn I was in the blissful 
    	throes of PMS when I wrote those notes.  =8-)
    
    	But I still stand by my feelings that menstruation is nothing
    	I'm ashamed of.
    
    	Carla
    

    
    When I was in middle-high school, I was out every month.  But then
    again, I was usually unable to move, and when I did crawl to the
    bathroom, half the time it was to throw-up.
    
    The pill "cured" all that, and I can't imagine how I would plan my
    schedule these days if I had to worry about being incapacitated for a
    couple days each month.
    
    I usually feel pretty disgusting during the heavier flow days, the
    smell is just plain obnoxious.  A shower is always a welcome relief.
    
    And just as a random comment, I wouldn't feel uneasy if I saw a woman
    walking towards the bathroom with a tampon.  I hide mine because I
    don't really feel that it's anyone elses business if I have my period
    and I'd rather just keep it to myself.
    
    Lisa

    Try my special cure for menstruel cramps. It has a good chance of
    working::
    
    		Have a Baby!
    
    It worked for me.
    
    Kate
    

    nope, I had three of them... didn't work last weekend for me :-)

>    Try my special cure for menstruel cramps. It has a good chance of
>    working::
>    
>    		Have a Baby!


	 Hahahahaha....NO THANKS!  Some cures are not really "cures"
	 at all!  ;-)


	 kath


	 
	 PS:  This comes purely from someone who doesn't want
	 children....

    Re .49, that's what my mother said, too, but C-sections don't seem
    to do the trick! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    It worked for me, C-section and all!
    
    Bonnie

    Re .53, no kidding!!!  That's not fair!  
    
    Lorna
    

    I did it at my doctor's suggestion, and it worked for me, too --
    for about 14 years.  But over the past several years, those da**ed
    cramps are returning in full force.  Now I pray for menopause!
    
    Karen

>    But over the past several years, those da**ed
>    cramps are returning in full force.  Now I pray for menopause!

Karen,
Don't pray too hard.  My mother just started the big "M" and she says her
period are longer and more painful than they have been since she had me.
Not only that, they are happening closer and closer together. What fun.
D!

    I never had cramps BEFORE my daughter was born...
    
       NOW I have them.
    
    Why is it that I always have to do everything backwards???
    
    Nanci-YBNORMAL-VanFleet  :-}

    re - .36 (nancy b.)
    
          > Anybody have a reference that describes the composition of
          > menstrual blood?
    
    Well, "The New Our Bodies, Ourselves" doesn't give percentages or 
    anything (haven't found any, anyway) but it says that menstrual fluid
    contains cervical mucus, vaginal secretions, mucus, cells, degenerated
    endometrial particles and a small loss of blood - sometimes clotted.
    
    And the "Better Homes and Gardens Woman's Health and Medical Guide"
    states that "the blood between the legs comes from inside the body in
    the uterus, flows out the cervix, down the vaginal canal, and finally
    outside the body.  Tissues filled with tiny blood vessels break away
    from the wall of the uterus every 28 days, and blood mixed with cell
    debris flows to the outside of the body."
                                                            
    (I still wonder how much actual blood is mixed with all that goop.)
    
    Oh well.
    
    Carol

    
    I'd just like to say tht I've appreciated the comments from the
    men of our community in this note.....made me see things differently.
    
    I'd never thought of menstruation as an opportunity for special
    intimacy with my partner before.
    
    I liked the humour, and the honesty. 
    
    Thanks guys....
          
    

    For what it's worth, having suffered with cramps from onset at age 9
    I've recently discovered a medication that stops cramps dead-cold: it's
    called Voltaren (diclofenac sodium), which I've been taking for
    rheumatoid arthritis (it's an anti-inflammatory, and I understand it's
    new on the market) for the past two months.  Guess what? no cramps, no
    nausea, no suffering.  Worth investigating!!
    

    My folks didn't believe much in sex education so I was just a month or
    so shy of 15 when I found out that men don't menstruate.  I was
    outraged!  It was so damn unfair!  The revelation happened this way:
    
    I was talking with my best friend who was all excited about her older
    sister's upcoming wedding.  Annie was a junior bridesmaid and all.  It
    was *so* thrilling.  Annie revealed to me that she and her sister had
    figured out the wedding date together with a calendar so big sister
    could wear white with confidence.
    
    I was fascinated that the date could be predicted as well as
    sympathetic to the need to not worry about one's clothing.  I
    innocently inquired how it fit in with the groom's schedule.  (Since
    boys and girls NEVER talked about it, I always wondered.)  Ann broke up
    laughing and told me that only girls bleed.
    
    Well!!! I was astounded and angry as hell.
    
    Not only did guys get to do all the good stuff, they also don't
    do any of the yucchy stuff.  A true feminist "Click" at an early age. 
    I resolved to do a lot of the good stuff anyway.  Even if I have to
    carry a few tampons in my pocket when I do it.   :^)
    
    Thank Goddess for tampons and pockets!
    

    see also womannotes-v1, topic 197 "protecting that which is feminine"
    for additional discussion on this topic....
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    
    I have a sun-glass case, plastic colour pocket.  No-one would be
    any the wiser.
    
    Unless they wondered why I keep taking my sun-glasses into the
    bathroom.
    
    		....................Mags
    

This topic has bothered me for quite a while.  It amazes me that so
many women are so secretive and furtive about having their periods, 
a natural female occurrence.

I found an article by Judith Laura, a Native American writer, who 
celebrates rather than shames menstruation.  Here's an excerpt:

The Menarche
------------

The day that the first blood flows from a woman's womb shall be a day
of personal joy for her.

As she flows she shall know she is one with the ebb and flow of the 
great ocean which pounds within my womb.  For it is through woman
that the rhythm of the eternal spirit is manifest.

Therefore, as the first blood flows from her womb, let each woman say:
"Praised be Our Great Mother who has this day made me a woman.  Praised
be Our Great Mother who has made me in her image."

And on this day, let each each woman raise to her lips a cup of red
wine, saying: "Such is the blood of Our Great Mother.  From this day
forward may I be one with her, and through her, one with the eternal
spirit.  I bleed, yet I am whole."

Let there also be public ceremony and celebration to commemmorate this
event.  And let the occasion of the menarche be marked always on the
thirteenth birthday of the young woman, whether or not her menarche has
actually occurred, that the whole community might celebrate together.

Let each woman, on her thirteenth birthday, clothe herself in red and
let her hair be garlanded with flowers.

And let all who are gathered raise their glasses of red wine, and let
the daughter who is the celebrant lead them in saying, "Such is the
blood of Our Great Mother who is the waxing and waning of the moon,
the ebb and flow of the tides.  For the father, her son, is born,
dies, and is born again; but Our Great Mother endures forever."

And let there be feasting and singing and dancing in honor of the
daughter who honors me.

- Judith Laura

    
    
    re .64
    
    Thank you for posting that!  It's exciting to find that there
    are cultures who have celebrated women's bodies instead of hating
    them.
    
    Justine

Pretty neat. I'm a little surprised that they celebrate it on the 13th
birthday, instead of when it really happens. Anyone know why?

	Mez

    
    re:13
    i know kids mature a little more quickly these days, but i was under
    the impression that 13 was a good average age for the onset of menses 
    until fairly recently.
    
    anyway, 13 has a nice connection with the number of months in the lunar/
    menstrual year.
    

Going back a few....

It appears ZK has *also* adopted the idea of free "sanitary devices".  Or
at least our local women's room has.

Wonderful!

D!

re .64 -

Wonderful! Thanks for entering that.

I'm convinced it's patriarchal religion more than anything else that has
made women feel furtive and ashamed about this "natural female occurrence,"
in perceiving them as unclean, dangerous, and threatening. In part this
reflects patriarchal envy. In his book Symbolic Wounds, Bruno Bettelheim
suggests that in ancient times all men's initiation rites were based on
men's desire to imitate and participate in women's menstruation and
childbirth, which were viewed as magic events. But as patriarchy grew more
powerful, many of these blood ritual imitations were turned into taboos
against women's functions...so a natural, once powerful function becomes a
shame and a "curse."

I don't want to romanticize that function or deny that it can be painful 
and inconvenient. But for women to be ostracized as impure and profane 
because of that function is really going too far...  
       
Bleah!

Dorian

>I'm convinced it's patriarchal religion more than anything else that has
>made women feel furtive and ashamed about this "natural female occurrence,"
>in perceiving them as unclean, dangerous, and threatening.

 I fail to see the connection between patriarchal religion and a natural body
function that happens to be rather gross. Seriously, menstruation is
important, powerful, life giving etc but it is also sort of gross, not to
mention the pain and inconvenience often associated with it. It would seem to
me that religion had very little, if anything, to do with the fact that
menstruating women were seen as "unclean."

>In part this reflects patriarchal envy.

 How? Men secretly wanted their bodies to ooze fluids once a month? Please 
explain. This doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 The Doctah

     Primitive thinking viewed blood=life.  Women bleed every month, yet
    continue to live with no ill effects.  Women give birth, also
    associated with bleeding.  Any creature capable of such miraculous
    mysteries was held in awe and men were envious!
    
    (Makes sense to me!)

           
    Re: .70
    
    Doctah,
    
    "Kind of gross".....?
    
    Why?
    
    Our noses run, our bodies sweat, women bleed - it's all part of
    the natural way out bodies work. What's gross about it?
                                                        
    Re: " .....men secretly want their bodies to ooze...."
    (Sorry - I don't know how to import a bit of one note into another!)           
    
    Well, men do ooze in their own quiet way....:-)
    
    But my interpretation isn't that men would want to menstruate -
    they would/do however want the POWER that is implicit in women's
    "oozing" on the most fundamental level i.e. the power of birth and
    regeneration. 
    
    These are areas in which women are indespensible to men - sure, it
    take two to make a birth, but men can't do it without us, or us
    without them. So the power has to be, at least, shared. 
    Maybe some men aren't used to this idea.....
                                               
    'gail
    
    

    .70
    
    "... that happens to be rather gross."
    
    thanks.  That's exactly the attitude we're talking about here.
    

re. celebration vs. shame

The day I had my first period, my father came and got me at school and took me 
shopping.  He bought for me a 'very grown up' red wool coat a la Hussar with
black velveteen trim and a sable hat to match. [I always liked red, but Mother
said that little girls 'don't' wear red]  Then he took me to tea.

Both of my parents made a great big deal about my embarking upon a special
and wonderous time of life -- that when I _could_ bring for life myself.

But I was also cautioned against flaunting this particular bodily function on 
the grounds that many would find it unpleasant.

Over the years I have found it to be inconvenient and sometimes destructive 
of clothing, but not gross.  My experience has been that childbirth is 
infinitely more untidy, and I wouldn't think to be ashamed of _that_ process.

  Ann

    Ann
    
    I offered to take my daughters out to lunch to celebrate their
    becoming, but in both cases when the time came they weren't
    comfortable with the idea so I dropped it.
    
    Bonnie

>    "Kind of gross".....?
>        Why?
    
>    Our noses run, our bodies sweat, women bleed - it's all part of
>    the natural way out bodies work. What's gross about it?
    
     I agree that it's natural. On the other hand, I do not believe that
    because it is natural, it cannot be gross. Those two attributes are
    separate, in my mind. Ex. people experience excess gas in the digestive
    tract, gas which eventually finds its way into the atmosphere.
    Occasionally, the odor from these gases can be overpowering and indeed
    quite gross. Many people look upon the menses in much the same manner
    (men AND women).
    
     If it were not at least somewhat capable of causing discomfit, what
    would then explain the reactions of young girls when they first begin
    to experience this? My two step-daughters described the process to me
    as being "gross." (as well as unpleasant, annoying, painful etc)
    
>    (Sorry - I don't know how to import a bit of one note into another!)           
    
    try this:
    
     hit the "Do" key, write "other" at the "command" prompt, hit return.
    Move your cursor in the other window, select the text, hit "do" and
    type "other" hit return. then hit "insert"
    
>    Maybe some men aren't used to this idea.....
    
    So you're saying that because men want all of the power, they use
    religion to lessen the importance of women's power to give birth?
    I guess I'm still not making the connection.
    
    Does anyone think it's possible that women originally thought of
    menstruation as a curse, since they didn't know that it was a necessary
    part of reproduction, and didn't realize it's importance. I would
    expect that most people would consider such a thing to be a curse if
    there was no apparent benefit from it.
    
     The Doctah

.70> ... a natural body function that happens to be rather gross. Seriously, 
.70> menstruation is important, powerful, life giving etc but it is also 
.70> sort of gross, not to mention the pain and inconvenience often associated 
.70> with it. 

Whose inconvience are you speaking of?  Yours?  Or a woman's?

Is there a subject under the sun that can be pegged a women's-only subject
as menstruation can?  Yet, some men just can't wait to jump in and tell us 
how disgusting they find it when we're trying to feel pride and good about 
our bodies, our functions, and our selves.  Is it so wrong to celebrate a
natural body function, one that gives life and cleanses our systems?

No.  Yet here we have men, who have never been women in this lifetime and
who have absolutely no idea what it feels like physically or emotionally 
to have a period, telling us that it's "gross".

Carla

Bonnie,

My Mom offered me a similar promise to celebrate my menarche.  We 
went out for a nice lunch, something I'd never done with her prior 
to that day, and to finally have IT and to go to a grown-up lunch 
all in the same day made it all the more special and memorable.

Carla

    I started about the same time as my sister - who is about 2 years older
    than I am (I think she might have been a bit jealous about that...I
    dunno - something about her being "more mature" and how it was unfair
    or something).  It was very mundane and ordinary - I was given some
    pads - life went on.  
    
    I agree I've been brainwashed by the culture we live in to think of it
    as gross and inconvenient.  It really look as if our culture has
    apportioned all the "earthy", "messy", "animal" functions to the women
    for the most part (- menstruating, bearing children, breast-feeding, 
    changing diapers), and the men come out crisp and clean and pressed and
    dressed - their logic unmussed by "lower" animal instincts and functions -
    their control unbothered and unbotherable by such inconveniences as PMS
    and post-partum depression.  
    
    bleah.
    
    -Jody
    

>Whose inconvience are you speaking of?  Yours?  Or a woman's?
    
    She who is having the menses. 
    
>Yet, some men just can't wait to jump in and tell us 
>how disgusting they find it when we're trying to feel pride and good about 
>our bodies, our functions, and our selves.
    
    That, Carla, is a load of garbage. Someone makes a statement about how
    patriarchal religion is responsible for women feeling any bad feelings
    whatsoever wrt menstruation. I challenge the notion, and offer a
    plausible explanation for why it is not so. That is then branded by you
    as men raining on your parade. Baloney!
    
>Yet here we have men, who have never been women in this lifetime and
>who have absolutely no idea what it feels like physically or emotionally 
>to have a period, telling us that it's "gross".
 
    I'm sure that the fact that I live with three women who have periods
    and who also talk to me about their feelings regarding them would
    impart no understanding whatsoever, would it? I'll tell them that they
    are not allowed to feel that it's gross, cuz you said so. I'm sure
    they'll be impressed.
    
     The Doctah    

    re .78
    
    Well, for the record, *I* happen to think that menstuation IS kinda
    gross.  You can pick a politer term, but that's what I thought when
    I first experienced it and I suppose to those than never have, it
    might be seen as such.  Nowadays (some 13 years later) it doesn't
    seem quite so gross, but that's probably because I am used to it.
    Some bodily functions, no matter how useful and natural they might
    be, are unappealing, but that's pretty much up to the beholder.
    Running noses are gross.  Loud belches are gross.  Emissions of
    gas are ground.  Drooling is gross.  At the risk of coming across
    as a total prude, I'd even think getting nocturnal emissions ("Men
    leaking in their quiet way indeed! ;) is kinda gross, altho it happens
    to be a natural reproductive action , too.  And I've never experienced
    one of those.
    
    Can't say I'm ashamed of it, and damned if it isn't inconvenient,
    but I'm not quite in awe of bleeding once a month as some are. 
    It can be painful, it can be inconvenient, and it can be seen as
    somewhat offputting (a politer term for gross).  I hardly like to
    advertise to the world it's that time of the month.  If people want
    to use periods as a sign of womanhood and fertility (which of course,
    it is) fine, and if some don't fine, but please, let's not get into
    man-bashing-because-after-all-they-can't/don't-get-it-so-they-ought-to-keep
    -their-mouths-shut.
    
    ::deep sigh::
    
    ---kim
                                                                          
    

    I think it's inconvenient, messy and painful.  But, I'm not ashamed
    of it.  It's just part of life.  I don't think it's gross in itself,
    but I can understand that some people might consider it gross to
    engage in certain activities with a women when she has her period.
    (As others have said there are other natural things that are often
    perceived as gross.  It may be natural for people to throw-up in
    some cases, but that doesn't mean I'd want to stick my nose in it.)
    
    I have no great urge to celebrate menstruation.  What I really wish
    is that someone would invent an easy way to make it go away, a pill
    or something? :-)
    
    When I was a kid, if I had ever mentioned my period to my father
    he would have been shocked and embarrassed.  That attitude seems
    so silly and unnecessary to me.  My mother told me about it but
    she told me to *never* mention it in front of *men* or *boys.* :-)
    My mother's mother had never even told her about it, and when she
    first got it, she thought she was dying!!
    
    Lorna
    

To me, there's a big difference between *women* evaluating their periods as 
painful, inconvenient, etc. and having a male patriarchy deem women profane and
impure when they're having them. The word "gross" would seem to me to be in
the latter category. And I think many individual women have internalized
the patriarchal attitude that periods are gross, just as they've
internalized other aspects of misogyny. 

Also, I hate to spoil the fun, but the view that patriarchal attitudes
towards menstruating women are based from ancient times in fear, envy, and
hatred is well documented--as is the appropriation of the significance of
female menstrual blood into (for example) Christian ritual and symbolism--
in books, one mentioned here and others available in bookstores and
libraries. 

Childbirth has inspired similar attitudes in, and been similarly 
appropriated by, patriarchal religions, but we don't have a topic on that,
do we? Like women being prevented from attending church for 40 days after
giving birth to a boy, and for 80 days after giving birth to a (presumably
twice as contaminating) girl? 

    
    Re: .77
    
    Thanks for the tip on how to inset other mails Doc - it worked!
    
    "I do not believe that because it is natural, it cannot be gross."
    
    In our culture we tend to discount some of our bodies functions
    as wrong/not acceptable. It may be *impolite* by current ettiquette
    to flaunt those conventions, but it does not make the natural
    functioning of our bodies "gross".
    
    This is not a personal jab, but I feel sad for the women you know
    who feel disgust at their own bodies through finding periods gross.
    They've obviously absorbed very well some of the general messages
    around about menstruation - it can be messy, inconvenient, or
    uncomfortable, but none of these is the same as gross. 
    It can be beautiful, but that message is not generally broadcast.
    
    "So you're saying that because men want all of the power, they use
    religion to lessen the importance of women's power to give birth?"
    
    I didn't mention religion. I do believe that since a patriarchal
    society became established men are used to having, and raised to
    expect, complete  self-sufficiency and control within their own
    male group. Which, in turn, runs all the main functions of society.
    
    Women can be functionally excluded from most activities, but the
    most fundamental - perpetuation of the race - cannot happen without
    them. So men are forced to include women in this, and fertility
    and menstruation are a symbol of that function which allows us to
    "force entry" into the male control groups. So the signs of our
    fertility could be seen as a threat to established order.
                
    Religion may be one of the mechanisms used to try and reduce that
    threat.
    
    'gail
    
    

>    This is not a personal jab, but I feel sad for the women you know
>    who feel disgust at their own bodies through finding periods gross.
    
     I didn't say they felt digust, I just said that they felt that periods
    were inconvenient, messy, annoying, and sometimes even gross. They
    don't feel shame or disgust; they just recognize that waking up in a
    mess of blood is not a pleasant experience. If you (and apparently
    others) object to the word "gross," how about "unpleasant?" It carries
    the same feeling that I was using "gross" for. Believe me, there's no
    reason to feel sad for my wife and daughters.
                                            
     The Doctah

    >Yet here we have men, who have never been women in this lifetime and
    >who have absolutely no idea what it feels like physically or
    >emotionally  to have a period, telling us that it's "gross".
    
    If at all possible, it might make this issue less inflammatory if we
    avoided generalizations like this.  I got the idea that this remark was
    aimed primarily at comments made by "The Doctah".  I don't think its
    fair to generalize that comments made by "The Doctah" represent the
    opinions of "[all] men".  There's at least ONE exception - me.
    
    If your comment was aimed at the originators of the discrimanatory
    Patriarchal religious ceremonies, rather than "the Doctah", then I
    retract this note.
    
    Jim
    

It's pretty clear (in my mind) anyone (from this discussion) that
gross is in the mind of the beholder!

john

>To me, there's a big difference between *women* evaluating their periods as 
>painful, inconvenient, etc. and having a male patriarchy deem women profane and
>impure when they're having them. 

Agreed.

>The word "gross" would seem to me to be in
>the latter category. And I think many individual women have internalized
>the patriarchal attitude that periods are gross, just as they've
>internalized other aspects of misogyny. 

I disagree with both those statements.  "Gross" to me does not imply
profanity or impurity, it implies physical distaste.

Secondly, I don't think my feeling that it is gross (which I used to feel,
no longer, because I am used to it) has anything to do with patriarchy.

Remember the substance "Slime" they used to sell the kids about 5-10 years
ago?  It was green and slimy and...well, gross.  The patriarchy didn't
teach me it was gross, it was gross because it was slimy and green.  I think
boys and girls both felt it was equally gross.  (Of course, its grossness
was more appealing to some people than others...more often boys.  I don't
know why, but I don't think it is relevent here.)

(next reply for the squeamish)

Lets be blunt.  The substance you ooze once a month is just not a 
delightful substance.   It is *slimy*.  I tend to have a "that's gross"
reaction to anything slimy, whether it is Slime (tm), snails, KY jelly
or menses.  The color is non-appealing.  It isn't a bright, colorfull red
like real blood - it varies between dark red (not too bad) and a sort of
blah reddish brown, a *gross* color.  It comes out in globs.  It's stringy.  
It has a strong odor.  When it dries it gets sticky and tacky and then
it feels *gross*.  It clings to your pubic hair and the insides of
your thighs and itches and feels *gross*.  When it dries it leaves dark
brown spots on your clothes and dark brown smears on *you* (or at least
on me.)  Those spots/spears look *gross*.  Esthetically unappealing.
Do you disagree?

Now, maybe you don't feel the same revulsion about slimy things, about
grungy brown things, about sticky things, about goo on the inside of your
thighs.  But you can't convince me that labelling those things as "gross"
is a result of indoctrination by the patriarchy.

Now, it is a different matter to feel *ashamed*.  I do believe that shame,
that feeling guilty or that you are "unclean" when having your period
is (or at least could be) a result of patriarchal indoctrination.  But
"grossness" is simply a reaction to the physical qualities of menses.
I think it is unhealthy to feel ashamed of menstruating.  I don't think
it is unhealthy to feel that having your uterine lining deposited on
the inside of your panties every month is gross.

D!

    .77
    
    Curse?  
    

    re:.84
    
    Actually, there is a way to make it so that you do not menstruate. 
    Take a dosage of the birth control pill that is just a few micrograms
    shy of the proper estrogen level for your body's needs.  You still get
    the preventive effects of the pill - but you don't menstruate.
    
    And the only thing *I* can think of (for me, personally, now) that is
    *worse* than menstruating is NOT menstruating.
    
    Yikes!
    
    -Jody
    

    I once read the statement below.  It gave me a different perspective on
    many other issues:
    
    "If men had periods, the President's would be a national holiday."
    
    I didn't and don't think it's funny, just thought provoking.
    
    ed

.90>  It's gross because it's brown and slimy and smelly

So is meatloaf gravy.  So are mud puddles.  So are newborn puppies.
Just because something is brown and slimy and smelly does not mean
it is necessarily gross.

re: .88

Jim, you're right, I did generalize, and I apologize for that.  It's
not "men", it was just one man.  Thank you for pointing that out.

Carla

    D!
    
    I do agree with how you are using gross in re menses. Right now, at
    45 I'm in the beginnings of menopause. One symptom of this is that
    my flow is a lot heavier and frankly I do feel that the occasional
    resultant mess is gross. 
    
    Another symptom is waking up soaking with perspiration! :-P that's
    also gross.
    
    But neither means that I feel bad about myself or my body.
    
    Bonnie

    Bill Cosby did a monologue once on nocturnal emissions. He said a few
    things that I'd like to paraphrase:
    
    	"I didn't know what it was, but I couldn't wait for it to happen
    again! I'd grab me several glasses of water, a few pictures of Dorothy
    Dandridge, and jump in the bed, sayin' 'Come on whatever-you-are!'
    
    	"You couldn't tell your mom about this kind of stuff. So, I'd just
    roll up my sheets and take 'em down to the laundry room every night
    around 3am... and there would be 7 other 13 year old boys washing their
    sheets, too!"
    
    
    Evidently, nocturnal emissions are gross, sticky, smelly and fairly
    unpredictable. But clearly a badge of pride from Cosby's perspective.
    
    Ironically, the only difference between menses and urination or
    defecation is that there are sphincters which control the latter two.
    But even though we may not discuss such, we are DEFINITELY not ashamed.
    People go to the bathroom. And its normal, acceptable. Unquestioned.
    And certainly not a sign of any incapacitance on anyone's part. As for
    the mess, society has made sure that such an absolutely automatic part
    of the lives of human beings is properly accomodated. I mean really!
    Can you imagine life without toilets? Can you imagine how AWKWARD life
    would be if you couldn't excuse yourself to relieve yourself? I mean
    really, the sphincters don't hold on forever...
    
    
    "Doctah", in reading your messages, I was simply struck by the fact
    that you didn't seem to find ANYTHING redemptive in menses. Moreover,
    you repeated your wife's and daughters' complaints without exploring
    the possibility that it could be a positive sign, or perhaps it SHOULD
    be. I think it would be far more pro-active on your part to encourage
    your daughters to see menses as a positive thing, a sign of their
    life-creating abilities, a sign of physical adulthood, a milestone in
    their lives. On your part, it would be quite a feminist thing to do...

>    "Doctah", in reading your messages, I was simply struck by the fact
>    that you didn't seem to find ANYTHING redemptive in menses.
    
     Then you didn't read carefully. In the very first note I wrote in this
    string, I first talked about the fact that menses are necessary for
    life, etc BEFORE I talked about the unpleasant qualities of menses.
    
     D! said exactly what I said, or rather, tried to say. Before the
    argument got blown out of proportion, I merely questioned the position
    that "patriarchal religion" was responsible (chiefly or solely) for any
    and all bad feelings regarding menses. The assertion, as I understood
    it, was that if patriarchal religions did not force men and women to
    feel bad about menses, they would be considered to be a terrific event
    each month. It is my opinion that the unpleasantness associated with
    menses are a result of their physical manifestation rather than
    something forced down our throats by the nasty old patriarchy. 
    
     I asked for some supportive evidence, opinions, arguments, whatever to
    indicate why patriarchal religion is responsible for all or most of the
    bad feelings associated with menses. I have yet to see anything
    substantive. I offered my own opinion for why people might have those
    feelings- and no one addressed that at all. Instead, it's more fun to
    start on the "he's a man- what right does HE have to say ANYTHING about
    this?" Which, of course, looks really good to the noters who enter the
    conference, see a few of those type of notes, and categorize =wn= as a
    place where the "man-haters" go.
    
     Contrary to the charges, I never told anyone she should feel grossed
    out by her menses; I never said anything about how she should feel.
    I never said anyone should be disgusted or ashamed of menses; they are
    a natural part of life for <insert_PC_deity_here>'s sake. 
    
     I guess I get a reaction when I see blame for everything bad being
    assigned to things where I don't see a connection. And when I ask, I
    get attacked for being male and daring to ask "on what do you base that
    opinion?" *here.*
    
     So you all go home and think of "the Doctah" as some mean,
    insensitive, callous, jerk. And sleep well.
    
     The Doctah 

    For what it's worth there is a very good book which discusses some
    theories on how patriarchal society/religion has degraded and
    effected people's attitudes toward natural female functions.  It's
    called _The_Once_and_Future_Goddess_ and is a very beautiful and
    thought provoking book.
    
    The book has a lot more to it than just the above, but I highly
    recommend it to anyone interested in how patriarchy may effect us.
    
    Karen.

Carla:

>So is meatloaf gravy.  So are mud puddles.  So are newborn puppies.
>Just because something is brown and slimy and smelly does not mean
>it is necessarily gross.

So?  I think mud puddles are gross.  I think newborn puppies (before Mom
licks them off) are gross (for the PI record, the same goes for babies.)
I didn't say *everyone* thought they were gross.  I said that the
perception of them being gross doesn't have to do with the nature of
the reproductive cycle and being feminine and all that, it has to do
with it's physical properties, which a given person may or may not find
distasteful.

You missed my point entirely.  There is nothing *necessarily* gross about
any of those things.  But if someone *does* think meatloaf gravy is 
gross (BTW, my gravy isn't slimy and I don't think I would like it if
it was) is that due to patriarchy/misogyny/what-have-you, or is it due to
the fact that that person has been conditioned to find those particular
physical qualities gross?  

Like I said, I find sliminess gross, so I find (found) menses gross because
they are slimy.  So unless you can demonstrate that I hate *all* sliminess
because of patriarchial indoctrination, then my distaste for menses isn't
related.

D!

    re .99
    
    Thanks for mentioning that!

re.98 - this one's for you, Mark.

No argument really, but you have asked about the role of patriarchal religions
in promoting shame -- or some unwholesome feeling -- toward menses.

While you may have come in for heat for using the term 'gross' the 'gross'-ness
you [and others] refer to has very little to do with your question.  The mess
and the discomfort aren't the root cause of the problem; the fact that it 
happens at all is.

Early on, women were segregated during menses.  During this flux from her woman-
hood a woman was a fearsome thing.  After all, a man with a similar flux from 
his manhood could generally expect evil events to follow.  Yet women experienced
this evil thing month upon month and did not die or truly sicken.  Where men
define the norm and a man would die [or be QUITE ill], a woman shrugging it 
off was looked upon as a manifestation of evil and could possible cause evil
by being near men, by touching a man's food, by looking at or being looked upon
by a man.  It was not understood _how_ she could be so unaffected, and fear
and loathing frequently result from such cosmic lack of understanding.

Further, when women bled they would not bring forth children. Once this 
connection was made, the occurrence of menses was viewed as the antithesis of 
life.  In a society or religion where women are viewed as necessary, but very
replacable, guarantors of posterity, this 'denial' of life by not giving it
purchase was also considered evil.

In patriarchal societies/religions women in menses were frequently the last to
eat and in times of famine were denied food.  Women in menses became 'unworthy'
of even the basic requirements of life.

In many patriarchal religions, intimate relations with a woman during menses
was, and is, considered unclean.  [Many non-religious men and women still 
behave as if this were so. Oh perhaps 'unclean' isn't the word they use, but
the fact that semen is fairly slimy and unpleasant to sleep in doesn't seem
to stop them so there must be some other level involved.]  Men who broke this 
taboo were denied their 'rightful' place and barred from doing man-stuff until
they were cleansed -- frequently by some economic sacrifice.

The specific example of barring women from the Sacrament until 40 days had 
passed and she had been cleansed and 'churched' after childbirth meant that
during those 40 days she was 'not part of the Body.'  In other words she was
'outcast' and not of the community during that time; and, in the far-back time
meant that she could not be burried in hallowed ground if she died during this
period of ostracism from God.

So we had/have women growing up in societies/religions that told them, from the
egg:
	- menses is an UN-natural process [it is not something that Man does]
	- menses makes you unfit for intimacy
	- menses makes you unfit to associate with other human beings
	- menses is life-denying
	- menses/childbirth makes you unworthy even of God.

It is no wonder that women came to be ashamed of this natural and life-affirming
process.  These are patriarchal attitudes that caused, and still cause, shame.

  Ann

    Thanks, Ann, for addressing the question.
    
    Where did you find all this out? What religions were involved? At what
    point of history did this occur? 
    
    The Doctah

.re.103

My sources of information are fairly diverse, ranging from anthropology texts
[written by both men and women] that I had in college, to instruction in 
comparative religions in a Catholic convent school, to reading in my father's
library on such subjects as the evolution of doctrines, Christian and otherwise,
and history of religions [my father's a Theologian and and Anglican priest, do 
I take this to True Confessions?...] to conversations with contemporary women 
exploring our differences and understanding one another.

The time of occurence ranges from pre-history to the present day.  There is no
specific 'point of history' but a continuum.  Much of what I wrote still occurs
somewhere.  Many of the traditions, such as churching after childbirth, exist in
vestigal forms for 'tradition's sake.'

Religions involved have been totemistic, pagan, Hindu, Islam, & Christianity in
their patriarchal manifestations.  I am fairly sure that none of my examples are
unique to any religion/society.

One of my examples, that of waiting to eat until others have eaten, still occurs
in some Hindu households.  My source on this is a conversation with a Hindu
woman about a year ago talking of her life. [She refused to 'sit out' and 
thought it would be great good fun if all the women in the household 'sat out'
at once because they weren't supposed to _cook_ either...]  Her family are not
backward and she is well educated.

    The base issue is not whether women enjoy bleeding once a month. I
    certainly don't and wish I didn't. (I don't enjoy sleeping in the wet
    spot men create either and they can make a mess every time they have
    sex :*))

    The issue is whether women feel *ashamed* that they are the ones
    that bleed. As if this was wrong. I do believe that religions have
    fostered that feeling. I realise I am condemming with a rather broad
    brush but as a woman I have found precious little in the religions I
    have seen to make me feel good about myself as a woman.

    The small amount of reading I have done in anthropology has lead me
    to believe that rituals ostracizing women during menses were quite
    common.

    In the modern sense we are also made to *pay* for our difference.
    How many times have you heard someone say "ah she must be on the
    rag" if a woman acts in a way they don't like? We are afraid to let
    others know we "have our period" because then our decisions may be
    become suspect. Everybody knows how emotional we get then. When I
    think of some of the things I have seen supposidly rational
    businessmen do I can only guess that they get some sort of PMS too.

    On the other hand, if we are so disgusting when we bleed it can
    always be an excuse to turn away unwanted sex. I wonder if women in
    ancient times lied and tried to pretend it lasted longer. liesl

    Liesl,
    
    Recently my 16 year old daughter started taunting her 12 year old
    sister when she was upset by asking if she was 'on the rag'. Finally
    one night when she was cross I asked her the same thing (after telling
    her several times that I found the phrase offensive.) She lit into
    me for using it, and I merely pointed out that if it was wrong for
    me to say that to her, it was equally wrong for her to use that for
    her sister and I wanted the phrase baned. 
    
    It amazes me how such expressions continue. It is not one that I have
    ever personally used but my daughter came home with it.
    
    and yes, women do feel ashamed that they bleed even in relatively
    open and liberal households like ours. Our dog has been known to
    get into the trascan and chew used pads and leave them all l over the
    house. This embarasses the heck out of me and my daughters and my
    2nd son can only be rude about it.
    
    I did try!
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    p.s. before entering this I reasked one of my daughters if she would
    like a lunch to celebrate being a woman and her answer was 'no' and
    she didn't want to talk about it. We are all embarassed as women
    I guess, but we need to own this and not put blame on the past. If
    we are strong we can forge a new reality.

	"I think what is happening to me is so wonderful,..all that is 
	taking place inside.

	"Each time I have a period--and that has only been three times--
	I have the feeling that in spite of all the pain, unpleasantness, 
	and nastiness, I have a sweet secret, and that is why, although 
	it is nothing but a nuisance in a way, I always long for the time 
	that I shall feel that secret within me again."

			-- Anne Frank, Diary, Wednesday, January 5, 1944

 >
 >   	  I have a serious question regarding this remark:  when is it okay
 >    to call into question a woman's attitudes regarding aspects of being a 
 >   woman? ... What am I missing here?  Under what circumstances should
 >   I think _I_ know better about being a woman than a _woman_ does?  Or am
 >   I just misunderstanding the recommendation?
    
    
    re .104
    
    The specific reason why I made my statement is because two of the
    "women" in Mark's life are daughters. And he can be a major influence
    on their values and upbringing. At least, that's how *I* look at
    parenting.
    
    A parent encouraging a child to look at something positively seems
    different from a peer saying it to a peer. I personally think that a
    father's opportunity to help his daughters look at their female aspects
    as a positive part of their lives should be strongly encouraged. Nor am
    I suggesting that he do this by some means which suggests that he knows
    more about this than they do. But rather, for example, to share the
    Anne Frank quote with them, as something he found. Or take his
    daughters out in a sense of celebration, similarly to the way some
    other parents - OF BOTH GENDERS - have done. I hope this makes sense,
    and answers your question.
    
    

    
    Re: .104
    
    Brian,
    
    Just a (hopefully) helpful thought from my experience....
                      
    How about ensuring that your daughters are shown some positive things
    written and said by women (or men) about menstruation as well as the 
    negative images (from women and men and, maybe, society)?
    
    Then they can form their own views on their womanhood with support 
    from a range of opinions.                                          
    
    I had an unformed view of my own periods when I started - they were
    very painful, and whilst I had no other ideas about them (shame,
    celebration etc.) I didn't feel positive towards them. 
    Then I read a book called "Hygiea - A Woman's Herbal" by Jeanine
    Parvarti. It has some very positive and gentle images from women on 
    how they view their cycles.
    It changed my views, and I *learned* to view my menses positively.
    
    You could say that this is making a virtue of necessity, but as
    we're stuck with periods for a loooong part of our lives I feel
    that a creative attitude towards it can make them at worst tolerable
    and, at best, beautiful and welcome. 
    
    You have a choice of books, poems, and some films and novels that
    give positive input. I'm sure the readers here could recommend some
    suitable ones. How old are your daughters? 
    
    'gail                 
    

	re: 879.64  (Carla Blazek)

	> "... .  I bleed, yet I am whole."

	What an interesting perspective.

						nancy b.

    Just a few thoughts....
    
    In my family the period was never something to "hide". My mother
    (gasp) and sister had monthly periods and that was that. The one
    thing my mother told my brother and I: If a girl said she COULDN'T
    go swimming and some boys tried to throw her in, defend her to the
    death or risk facing same from mom. 8^) She explained the embarassment
    felt by many females and what was happening. My mother and father
    were not highly educated people but they had a sense for explaining
    those things that needed it.
    
    My wife and I have spent many hours discussing and exploring the
    "differences" in ourselves. It was awkward at first but it's made
    our marriage all the stronger because we understand a bit better
    why we act the way we do. We have hopefully passed that on to our
    two daughters. The youngest hasn't started yet. The oldest (14)
    finds no problem in telling me there are no pads and I best get
    down to the store and get some...8^). 
    
    
    As to the condom joke about tax:
    
    Forget the tax.........I'll just roll 'em on!
    
    
    Ken

    So how come menstruation is viewed as smelly, gross (slimey), etc., and
    ejaculation or sexual intercourse is not???  Could it possibly be that
    the former is only for females and is the result of a *female* bodily
    function, while the the slime and odor of the latter are the
    result of a *male* bodily function?????????

>    So how come menstruation is viewed as smelly, gross (slimey), etc., and
>    ejaculation or sexual intercourse is not???  

I didn't know it was.  I don't view either as gross, but I once did, for 
similar reasons (slimy, smelly, etc.)  Eventually, through repeated exposure,
I got used to them both.  I still don't consider either a delightful
substance...I don't look forward to having my period, and I *refuse* to
sleep in the wet spot!  (One of the many advantages of condoms...)

>Could it possibly be that
>    the former is only for females and is the result of a *female* bodily
>    function, while the the slime and odor of the latter are the
>    result of a *male* bodily function?????????

If it is true that some people think menses is gross and semen isn't, then
that is a possible explanation (the root of which would appear to be
misogyny.)

Another possible explanation: people get used to semen faster.  Certain for
men, they are exposed to semen *much* more frequently than to menses, so they
have more chance to get over the aversive reaction.  And I, for one, and
probably many women with regular sexual partners, are exposed to semen more 
frequently than once a month.  (True, I was exposed to menses for many years
before semen, but I considered them *both* gross for years after I began
exposure.)

(BTW, by "gross and slimy" in reference to ejaculation I assume you meant
semen.  I wasn't sure what you meant by "intercourse" being gross and slimy
if not semen.  Female lubrication?  I never thought that was gross, probably
because I was exposed to it not only before menses, but before I even made
the connection between "slimy" and "gross", so I've *always* been used to
it.  Also, probably both men and women are less likely to find that "gross"
because it is directly linked with female sexual arousal, and so has positive
associations from the start.  Besides, since it is a female secretion, it
doesn't support your point anyway.)

D!

    My comment/question was for those who *do* consider menstruation
    "gross."  I agree with you that repeated exposure reduces one's
    personal aversion to both blood and enjaculate!

>that is a possible explanation (the root of which would appear to be
>misogyny.)

    I don't buy into the idea that people would find menses gross because
    of misogyny. Many people have an aversion to blood, plain and simple.
    They don't faint, break out into a sweat or loose their lunch at
    the sight of blood because deep down inside they hate woman! Stop
    by the Red Cross some time, I'm sure they can tell you that many
    different people find blood gross. 

    Gail

    Now we're getting down to cases...  Actually, neither of the bodily
    fluids D! mentions has ever seemed gross to me separately.  But, in my
    experience, the consensus from both sides of the sex wall has always
    been that the combination of the two IS gross.
    
    Ray

    Re .120, I think that finding regular blood gross is different than
    finding menstrual blood gross.  To me they are gross in different
    ways for different reasons. :-)  "Real" blood is gross because it
    reminds me of people dying violently (blood & guts, violent injuries),
    bleeding to death.  When people lose too much blood they die.  Therefore
    it is scary to me and upsets me to see a lot of blood (and guts).
     It also shocks me because I'm not used to it.  There's something
    horrifying about looking down and seeing my own life's blood being
    drawn out of my arm.  But, this regular blood doesn't smell and
    it isn't dark red and clotted. :-)
    
    Menstrual blood on the other hand sometimes does smell bad, it can
    be dark and clotted and revolting looking in the same way, oh, vomit,
    or shit, can be.  But, since I am used, by now, to having my period,
    I don't find just having my period to be gross.  Painful, and a
    nuisance, but not gross.  I think it can be gross though, if people
    have sex during menstruation because it can get all over everything,
    and create a real mess.  And, I can't imagine why anyone would ever
    want to have oral sex during menstruation.  Yuck!  I think that
    would be gross.  I really don't think I feel this way because of
    misogny.  I think it's just a physical reaction to something being
    yucky, like touching vomit.  :-)  (just my opinion on the matter!)
    
    As for semen, it seems obvious to me that it's not as gross as
    menstruation because it's not red, there's not as much of it, and
    it doesn't smell bad.
    
    Lorna
    

    Yecchh, Lorna.  (: >,)
    
    Actually, I should point out that being a little gross doesn't keep
    something from being worthwhile.  Heck, I've seen "Dawn of the Dead"
    three times now!  And sex can be even more rewarding than a zombie
    movie!
    
    Ray

<    Actually, I should point out that being a little gross doesn't keep
<    something from being worthwhile.  Heck, I've seen "Dawn of the Dead"
<    three times now!  And sex can be even more rewarding than a zombie
<    movie!
    
    And then there are those who feel sex is like being in a zombie movie.
    ;*} liesl

    I think mushrooms are yucky, even though most people do not.  Is my
    feeling necessary caused by a prejudice against mycologists?  Or is my
    feeling in fact quite normal (even if not universal) and not in fact in
    need of explanation at all?

    Some people have tried to show that menses are not gross by comparing
    them with other things -- mud, newborn puppies, semen.  This sort of
    comparison is pointless.  Some people think newborn puppies are gross,
    some do not.  Some people think menses are gross, some do not.  One
    person's opinions of gross do not need to agree with another person's
    in order to be valid.  Grossness is not a physical characteristic which
    can be proven or disproven.

    You can prove that apples are red.  You cannot prove that J. Doe is
    right or wrong to like or dislike them.  If a person feels a pain in
    their hand, that pain is real even if you can examine the nerves in
    their hand and determine that none of them are sending signals -- even
    if the pain is psychosomatic, it still hurts, and so it is real. 
    Similarly, if a person thinks something is gross, then it is gross to
    them.  They are grossed out by it, and you cannot say it isn't so.

    Grossness and shamefulness are different things.  Something can be
    gross with or without being shameful, and vice-versa.  Some people have
    tried to say that considering menses gross is a consequence of some
    attitude toward women.  I do not think that has been proven.  Even .102
    begins with a chain that goes:

      menses -> similar to something dangerous -> dangerous -> to be feared

    That chain of reasoning is not deductive; it is associative, so it can
    be in error.  And it did turn out to be in error.  Nevertheless, it is
    not an unreasonable line of conjecture, particularly for the time it
    was made.  It is reasoning that can be born of ignorance, a natural
    fear of the unknown, and an honest attempt to think about the subject
    -- it is reasoning that is not necessarily caused by any particular
    attitude about women or men.

    In fact, given the material in .102, it is not clear whether
    patriarchal attitudes first gave rise to disdain for menses or whether
    fear born of the unknown aspects of menses gave rise to disdain and
    then to patriarchal attitudes.  In all likelihood, they may have each
    contributed to the other at times.

    Since dislike of menses can be explained without recourse to
    patriarchal attitudes, there is not enough information to judge that
    such attitudes cause dislike of menses.

    As for shame, as opposed to dislike, I think it is likely that
    patriarchal attitudes have at least helped to perpetuate shame.  But I
    think some of the notes in this topic have spread the blame too far.
    Besides seeing notes that deny discrimination at all, we see the other
    extreme, notes that blame dislike for women or dislike for the notion
    of women as people as the cause for shame for menses.  Such notes act
    as an accusation, which naturally steps on the toes of innocent people.
    Human ignorance can explain a great many things that people do; it is
    not necessary to suppose that people necessarily made menses shameful
    because they disliked women or wanted to suppress women -- ignorance is
    a sufficient explanation, and it is certainly easier for people to
    acquire ignorance than virtually anything else.  Instead of searching
    for something to blame for discrimination that has occurred throughout
    history, I would lay it to rest as caused mostly by ignorance and turn
    the search toward ways to change things today.


    				-- edp

-1:
>    Human ignorance can explain a great many things that people do; it is
>    not necessary to suppose that people necessarily made menses shameful
>    because they disliked women or wanted to suppress women -- ignorance is
>    a sufficient explanation, and it is certainly easier for people to
>    acquire ignorance than virtually anything else.  

As the saying goes (paraphrased) "Never attribute to maliciousness that which
can be adequately explained by stupidity."

:-)

D!

    If it were up to me I would gladly let the MEN go through the
    "miracles" of menstruation, pregnancy, and childbirth!  I would rather
    take the easy way out and let them do the hard part, while I enjoy the
    children later.  I think being a woman can be a pain in the ---!