Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    First let me say, there are good people, and there are bad people
    in every group. So lets take that stereotype and stick it right
    where ANY stereo type belongs, in the trash. 
    
    What are woman bikers like?
    
    seems to me, we all just found out huh? Sandy, Marlene, the others.
    All NORMAL human beings just like anyone elts. Dont ya think? Its
    not abnormal to see a woman riding a bike, infact *I* think its
    a welcome change. HOPEFULLY, I can accompany the wonderful minority
    out on the road someday, but my taste and my funds are two different
    things... 
    
    Feminism?
    
    Well? I dont know, Im not into it really... I think ALL people should
    be treated the same. No matter what their thing is, be it biking,
    or anything elts. I didnt get intrested in riding because of feminism,
    or the fact that the majority of people who DO ride are me, or to
    make any specific point or anything, I took the MSF course and rode
    with others because I like to be on a motorcycle... no other reason
    at all.
    
    What do women get out of riding?
    
    Unless you have sat on a motorcycle and had the wind in your hair,
    and the breathlesness of riding a motorcycle, you would never
    understand?Hardly worth going into really... find out! go out there
    and do it up! But women and men get the same feeling out of riding,
    the feeling of freedom...
    
    Mar

    Well, ahem. First, and perhaps this is picky, but a "motorbike" is
    a small essentially motorized bicycle. The thing you rent in Bermuda.
    We are talking, motorCYCLES, here. cc's. V-twin. rpm's. Vroom.  ;-)
    Yes?
    
    Feminist? Yes. Anti-feminist? Yes. Fit the "biker" stereotype? Yes.
    *Don't* fit the biker stereotype? Yes. [I think there *are* people,
    male and female, who have some or maybe all of the traits associated
    with the stereotype. I am NOT talking criminal-type motorcycle gangs,
    here. That's a different thing.]
    
    You wanna talk leather jackets? Yeah, we wear leather jackets. IT
    provides protection in case you end up sliding (God forbid) down the
    pavement. Is it also part of the "style"? Uh-huh. So we get to wear
    sharp-looking leather jackets *for a good reason*! What a deal! ;-)
    
    What do I get out of it? This is difficult... I like the freer feeling
    of driving in the wind, being able to see all around me, look at the 
    sky, etc. I also like having to constantly be aware of what I'm doing,
    how fast I'm going, who's around me, what's happening 4 seconds in
    front of me....12 seconds in front of me. [There are days when I don't
    want to be bothered with this, and I don't ride on those days. I
    prefer not to ride at times when I'm likely to daydream. Yes, it
    happens in the car....ever get to some exit on a highway and wonder
    how you got there?]
    
    There's a lot to be said for leaning into a corner, being able to
    control the bike by body lean and have it respond right away.
    
    It's nice that women are more accepted as riders instead of only
    passengers these days. It's hard to notice the gender of a motorcycle
    rider, all bundled up in helmet, jacket, pants, boots, gloves and
    what-have-you. People still assume it's a guy under all that...gas 
    stations attendants call you "son" and so forth. And when they find out
    you're female some folks make assumptions about your riding skills
    (which were just fine when they believed you were a guy). Still, you
    can now get waited on in dealerships and parts stores, and the more
    people realize that women ride, the more they'll not go by their old
    ideas of who rides.....
    
    --DE (who got a new Honda Pacific Coast on Monday and HATES rain)
    

    
    as a former member of a motorcycle club what type of bikker woman
    do you mean. there is the "old lady" which means she belongs to 
    somebody. and there is the "ma ma" which belongs to the club.
    
    these are the terms that bikkers refer to these women.
    please do not take offense anybody.
    
    frank
    

    Frank, get out of the 60's huh?
    
    MyBoyfriend refers to me as his ole' lady, and he isnt even a biker.
    
    Please, its people like you that promote stereotypes. Knock it off.
    
    WHERE did you get these pathetic definitions, and WHOOoooos club,
    
    Mar

    RE: .3
    
    You're kidding! There's really a Motorcycle Mama?!?!
    
    She's the one that drives a bike, yes?
    
    [A while back, we had a string going in which a few of us had fantasy
    plans for a women's motorcycle club. Mauve leathers and Harleys.
    I think we were going to be The Mama's. I *love* it!]
    
    This has serious Personal Name Potential.... ;-)
    
    --DE
    

    
    there are several motorcycle clubs that are for women only.
    
    now mar 
     there are bikers and want to be bikers.
    
    it depends what type of biker woman she was fefering yo and that
    was all i asked. so relax.
    
    frank:-)

    Yes, infact after the program (MSF) we got (I got) a form to be
    in the WOW! (kinda reminds me of GLOW, gorgeous ladies of wresling)
    Women on wheeles... but I didnt join cuz I didnt have time to commit
    like I would have liked to...
    
    sigh...
    

    
    let me ask it to the base boter a different way.
    
    what type of biker woman do you mean the kind that are around clubs?
    
     or the type the like bikes ?
    
     as there are alot of women who like bikes but would have nothing to
    do with a m/c
    

    
    i think this is really weird.
    

    pay no mind to him... *8^) aye franko.
    
    if you have any questions Im sure the ladies would be glad to answer,
    frank has NO idea what a woman might think/feel/want about being
    abiker, as he isnt a woman... *8^)
    
    maybe in another life tho!
    
    *8^) sorry frank, couldnt resist...
    Mar

    I think we're talking about women who like to ride motorcycles for
    themselves.  Not hangers-on.
    
    -Jody
    

Why would a woman want to ride a bike?

Well obviously...

so she'll have the world's largest vibrator between her legs!

No, really, I have always (well, for at least 10 years now) liked
motorcycles.  I like looking at them (everything from a Fat-Boy to
a Suzuki);  I like touching them;  I like sitting on them - and 
until recently, this is all I got to do.  I had a moped (shh, don't
tell anyone) and I *loved* it.  Had the best time.  And I always
figured if being on a Moped was a lot of fun then being on a motorcycle
would be an *unbelieveable* amount of fun.  I was right, of course.

As others have said, I think women's reasons for biking are largely
the same as men's: ie: as many reasons as there are people riding.
For me, it's the freedom, the feeling of being one with the machine
(it's not some seperate entity that is zipping down the road and you
are just hanging on, it's *you*, and also a feeling of thrill-seeking.
In the MSF course I took they listed a number of common reasons 
people ride: freedom, economy, image, because their SO wanted them
to, etc.

And besides, it offers a good excuse for us leather fetishists to
get all decked out in leather, and then say "But it's good protection!"
:-)  [Lemme tell ya, there was this woman in my course, in black
leather from head to toe, chaps, jacket, boots, gloves, black helmet,
the Works - and she looked *good*.  Wish I had legs like hers -
I'm gonna look terrible in chaps.]

And finally (for me) it is somewhat rebellious - sort of "I don't care
the women bikers have a terribly image, I don't care if you think I am
going to kill myself, or that you think I'm cheap or trying to imitate
a man - I don't care if good girls don't ride Hogs - I'm gonna ride
cause *I* want to."

(Then there is also the association of bikers with, ah, other subcultures,
if ya know what I mean.  ;-) )

D!

	 I can't help it......have to respond.


	 This discussion is the most BLATENT double standard I've
	 ever seen in this conference.

	 Many of you =wn= want equality....well you better damn well
	 start giving it a little too.....and some respect while
	 you're at it.

	 The real, true test of equality is to be able to rise above
	 the petty sexist traits and see them for what they really
	 are.  We CHOOSE to take things the way we want to take 'em.
	 Just like I CHOOSE to rise above the sexist bullsh!t
	 surrounding the word "girl" and accept it for what it is,
	 many bikers have also learned to rise above it.,

	 We CHOOSE to view what we want to view as sexist.  Just like
	 women making comments in this file about how "all men are
	 xxx" and it's not considered sexist here, is the same way
	 things with bikers are not considered sexist.  You CHOOSE to
	 view what you want to view as sexist and you CHOOSE to cast a
	 blind eye to other sexist statements.

	 I've been a part of a biker crowd since I was 16.  Believe it
	 or not, I've never ridden one myself, but as soon as I can
	 afford to buy one I will....I've always planned that. In
	 college I hung out at biker bars....and let me tell
	 you.....bikers can be the best people in the word oft times.
	 I miss that crowd...haven't been with them in years.


	 Women bikers!?!  The TOPS!  ;-)

	 kath

    RE: .13  - huh?
    
    RE: chaps
    
    I'd suggest going whole-hog (no pun intended) and get leather pants.
    They aren't that much more expensive and they do keep you warmer if
    it's cold....
    
    --DE
    

    Do women's motorcycle clubs have male "hangers-on"? :-)
    (I'm trying to think of some reason I might be interested!)
    
    "Good girls don't ride Hogs", huh?  I definitely agree that's probably
    a viscious stereotype.
    
    Are some women snobbish about the type of bike they ride?  For example,
    a male friend who loves bikes thinks that if it's not Italian, it's
    not a bike!   (unless it's a Triumph)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
    hey kath your alright.
    

    
    yes women bikers ride hogs "monty"s cycle shop " owned by mother
    and her two daughters and the daughters ride hogs.
    

    re: personal preference in bikes
    
    Everyone thinks their bike is the best, hence tends to influence
    others into the same, pretty natural thing to do...
    
    one of my small problems, I wont ride until I can get exactally
    what I want... of course MY preference is bigger than my pocketbook,
    so I'll keep savin' my pennies...
   
    re: Kathy
    
    WHoooo Knew!!! *8^) Last person in the WORLD i expected to see a
    letter like that... very nice!
    
       
Mar

    
    	RE: .13  Kath
    
    	Who, precisely, are you talking to?  (I can't see anything going
    	on in this topic that would elicit the slamming in your note.)
    	
    	Exactly WHO is denying anyone equality here?  Show me the reply.
    
    	While you're at it, I'd love to see all the places where people
    	have written "ALL men are xxxx."
    
    	It's amazing how such hatred for this community literally BURSTS
    	through the tube sometimes.  (But, heaven help us, we'd damn well
    	better show respect for everyone else in the world.  Or else!)
    

    RE: women, Harleys, Hawgs
    
    Actually, Hogs are great bikes for those of us with shorter inseams.
    They're lower, so it's easier to get your feet firmly on the ground.
    
    
    [Lorna's in the *motorcycle* note!?!?!? *Lorna*???? In the MOTORCYCLE
    note?!?!?  My goodness!  :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)]
    
    Oh yeah....Harleys are also so expensive so as to be prohibitive, 
    especially where you can't ride all year-round. :-(
    
    --DE
    

    Well, um, gee, I used to have a bike.  My first was a Yamaha 350, then
    I had a Bultaco Metraya (sp??) (it's been a LONG time).  I learned to
    ride from a man I was dating who had a Yamaha.  He was not your typical
    biker but rather a chemist, high school teacher, and a pretty tweedy
    kinda guy.
    
    On an early date, we rode our bikes to see Easy Rider (yes this was
    back in 1969) and it was pretty frightening to ride home again.
    
    I had the Bul when I lived briefly in California.  Had a full set of
    custom leathers, fawn and sky blue, with lovely fringe and a beautiful
    painted helmet with stars.
    
    Wrecked the bike big time along the coast highway north of San
    Francisco in redwood country.  Most of the bike went over the cliff, I
    didn't.  Haven't rode one since.
    
    I liked the freedom of the bike.  I was young enough that I didn't even
    feel slightly mortal 'till after the big dump -- then I felt VERY
    mortal.  I liked the image of being independent and gutsy, I liked
    zipping along twisty roads and through traffic.  I liked the way I
    looked in my outfit.  I liked being able to really know where I
    was riding, it's a heck of a lot more immediate an experience than
    driving a car.
    
    Things I learned: never have a bike you can't pick up if it tips over,
    (amazingly embarrassing to have to ask for help!), always wear lots of
    protective clothing, wind in your hair only looks good in commericals,
    various colors of sunglass lenses vary the experience, and quit riding
    while it's still a mostly good memory.  Although I still feel nostalgic
    on a really nice day. 
    
    So, how many of you out there in =wn= land are kinda surprised that I
    used to ride a bike?
    
        Margaret

    
    Please go gently folks.  Sexism discussion can continue in the sexism
    topic.  And any thought of flamage should be rethought before it
    occurs.
    
    Thank you
    
    -Jody
    

    gee, Margaret, I appear to be following you around here :-)
    I had a bike years ago, too, a Honda 350.  I also had one of those
    helmets that has a piece of dark plastic across the face - the
    thing I used to really love was stopping somewhere for gas or
    something and taking off my helmet and having my hair fall down
    and having someone say "gee, it's a girl!"  That's good advice
    about not having too heavy a bike, 350 was as big as I could
    handle.  
    
    Sue

    Well I've ridden on a bike but never driven one.
    
    When my husband and I were first married he bought a Honda
    150 and we travelled all over on it..
    
    I mostly got stiff and sore but I had a good time!
    
    Bonnie

    RE: Jody
    
    Thanks. If this note goes down the drain too, I shall absolutely
    *scream*.
    
    RE: MArgaret
    
    Well, gee...from the wonderful way you described your feelings about
    riding, I'm amazed you don't ride NOW!!!
    
    RE: general
    For anyone thinking of taking up biking, please, please, please take
    the AMA Motorcycle Safety Course. It will teach you a LOT (even if you
    already ride) and maybe save your <ahem> sometime. 
    
    RE: weight
    
    Well, OK, but there are lots of guys riding who can't pick up their
    scoot if it falls. My AMA instructor (just so you don't think this is
    my own sexist opinion) told us that people take the Better Biking
    course (which is the safety course on YOUR bike instead of their 250's)
    on their Gold Wings, 2-up....and if they dump 'em, it takes 2 people to
    pick 'em back up again. 
    
    There *are* ways you can use leverage to upright a heavy bike. And
    remember, you don't have to pick it straight up in the air - you only
    have to get it back on it's wheels.
    
    Certainly, if you ride alone, you want to be able to get the damn thing
    back up if you drop it. It's soooooo embarrassing.....
    
    --DE
    

    I picked up a big FLH once, let me repeat... ONCE
    but it was on the count of this BIG adrenelin searge flowing thru
    my body, and the thought of its 450 lb owner sitting on me...
    
    ooops! sorry buddy! didnt mean to drop your bike!!!
    *8^)
    
    He let me ride it tho... even tho I almost dropped it, but he NEVER
    left me alone with it. *8^)
    
    Heavy sucker!!!
    *8^)

Dawn:

AMA course? 

The course I took was offered by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation,
through the Mass Safety Council in Worcestor.  You can call them
if you are interested.  Great course (despite the sexist movies) -
and my instructor was funny and knowledgeable - has been riding
for nigh on 30 years (!).  As I said on the course evaluation "the
best spent $145 I have spent recently".  Lotso fun.

And 50% women too.  Wow.  (The bikes they use are very small, and
even the most petite of people could handle them, I am sure.)

D!

    Talking of dropping bikes, a female bodybuilder I know rides a 900cc
    something-or-other.  Last weekend she dropped it and didn't get
    out of the way in time.
    
    So she's got her ribs and thigh pinned under the bike, and even
    with her physique she couldn't move it, at least not far enough
    to get out.  She was trapped for 5 minutes before she got help.
                 
    She's lucky that all she got was a bruised thigh and some sore ribs
    -- right when she's in training for an event too.

    RIGHT!!!
    
    IT's MSF. Sorry.
    
    Local folk can call the Mass Safety Council for details!
    
    Thanks, D!
    
    

    Re .24, Bonnie, the women who like to *drive* bikes will think this
    is wimpy :-), but what is really fun is riding in a sidecar.  A
    friend of a friend of mine owns a motorcycle dealership, and last
    summer had a new Moto Guzi (sp?) with a sidecar attached.  He
    took us for a long ride in the sidecar and it really was fun, and
    you can just sit back and relax.  His 5 yr. old son's helmet fit
    me!  (He said it really takes a lot of strength to drive a bike
    with a sidecar attached, tho.  And, I think the bike was going for
    $13K, at least.)
    
  Riding in the sidecar was more *my* wimpy idea of a good time, :-),
    but if I wanted to drive and own a bike I would, if I could afford
    one.  (But, I don't because I think it's scary & dangerous, but
    not because of any ideas about women who ride bikes.)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .28
    
    Scary. Hope it wasn't running, or she could reach the kill switch....
    
    I've found crash bars to be helpful in those situations (er...sorry...
    "case savers") but of course, I've never dropped my bike.
    
    <gack, coff, coff, choke>
    
    ;-)
    
    

I find Harleys, and some young long-haired leather-clad men who ride 
them, remarkably sexy.  Of course it's best in Hollywood where every 
Harley you see is adorned with someone worth noticing.  (Woof!)

If I had the money, and the mechanical prowess, I'd buy one.  In the
meantime, I'm just a biker by proxy...

Carla

    RE: .30
    
    While riding on my motorcycle,
    
    Ruth was in the side car with me.
    
    I took a bump at 75,
    
    And rode on, Ruthlessly.
    
    
    
    :-}
    
    

re: .33

Dawn, that's horrible!  Is it an original?  =8-)

Carla

    riding in a side car is NO fun at all, infact I rode in a side car
    once with this guy I met in Daytona... He was (get this) blind in
    one eye, and carting ME around in a sidecar, the side of which he
    happened to be blind...
    
    I dunno, sidecars to me, are a intence feeling of helplessness...
    
    if the driver should say... have a heart attack
    You are just sitting there, dangling off the side of the bike with
    your feet way down in the tunnel, where as if you are on the back,
    and I have been in a similar situation, if somehting happens to
    the driver, you can atleast steer the bike with your body.
    
    My previously mentioned 450lb friend who took up more space on the
    bike than there was room for, was taking me to Laconia. He turned
    his head like a dodo and lost his eye glasses... HE was BLIND AS
    A BAT! *8^)
    
    well, he steared and I leaned...   what a LOOOooong strange trip
    THAT was...
    
    MAr

    Re.33, thanks a lot, Dawn! :-)  Remind me never to ride in a sidecar
    with you driving!  Actually, there were two of us squeezed into
    the sidecar so it would have been pretty impossible for us to be
    bounced out!  
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .34
    
    No, it's not original. I can't remember where I heard it - on the
    radio, I think...but [re:.-1] sidecars scare the <variety of bodily
    contents> out of me. I'd rather drive, and at least have some control.
    
    Blind? *BLIND*??? Geeeeeeez.
    
    IF that had been me, the inside of that side car would have to have
    been steam cleaned afterwards. [ref. Noah, and "Who's gonna clean the
    bottom of that ark?"]
    
    --DE
    

    re:.36
    
    Sorry, Lorna. Sometimes I can't help it. :-}}}
    
    [You're sure you don't want to get a set of leathers and join us
    on the bikes, now..???  ;-) ]
    
    --DE
    

    re .35, well, the guy driving the motorcycle with my sidecar wasn't
    blind in one eye (I don't think!)  He's been driving bikes for years,
    races bikes, owns a dealership, repairs bikes, he's attractive,
    a hot-ticket, hey, I trusted him and I was lucky..... :-)  He exuded
    confidence, and I felt safe!  I certainly trust his driving ability
    over my own, since I've never driven a bike and he's very experienced!
     (besides he's a man....just kidding)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    What are women bikers like?   Well, the one I know best is incredibly
    talented, beautiful, independant, fun, intelligent, sexy, free-spirited, 
    spontaneous, a great riding companion, and so much more.  A credit to
    her gender.
    
    For contrasts -  she plays a classical cello then goes out and rides her
    scoot.  Or she'll get home from DEC, and exchange her business suit for
    her leathers and off she'll go - in the wind.  She's quite a lady!
    
    I thank her for getting me into biking.  She opened my eyes!
    
    And on a more general note, all the woman bikers I've met are just great
    people.  
    
    Of course the leather is great too. 8^)
    
    barry

	re: 1088.13  (Kathy Gallup)

	>   This discussion is the most BLATENT double standard I've
	>    ever seen in this conference.

	How, Kath?  

	I've just read the last 12 replies and didn't come away
	with that perception at all...   {my first thoughts are - WOW, I 
	would never have thought so many women would be into biking, probably
	because my parents would never let me on a motorcycle.  I got grounded
	once when my mom saw me on the back of a _moped_ in my neighborhood!!
	I put in a note a looong time ago about how riding on the back of
	a Harley Davidson was the biggest thrill of my trip to Florida.
	Second thoughts after reading the last 12 notes are - this is yet 
	another reminder to me of how diverse women are!}

	>  Many of you =wn= want equality....well you better damn well
	>  start giving it a little too.....and some respect while
	>  you're at it.

	Kath, again I honestly don't see what you're referring to here. 

	>   We CHOOSE to take things the way we want to take 'em.

	[Kinda off the subject] but if that were true for me, a lot of
	my "headaches" wouldn't exist.

	>  Just like I CHOOSE to rise above the sexist bullsh!t
	>  surrounding the word "girl" and accept it for what it is,
	>  many bikers have also learned to rise above it.,

	Does that mean you (for ex) 1) wouldn't think it sexist or wrong
	if your boss referred to you as a "girl",   (i.e., thinking
	that an adult women being called a "girl" is not wrong or sexist)
	of that you 
	2) wouldn't let it bother you even though you think it is wrong.

	Also, how does that example relate to "bikers learning to rise above
	it".  What is "it"?

	>  women making comments in this file about how "all men are
	>  xxx" and it's not considered sexist here, is the same way

	Where?  

	And, my opinion is that if _you_ think it is sexist 
	(to say that "all men are xxx"), then the statement
	"it's not considered sexist here" is not true.  
	For you are here (if for only but a reply every now and
	then).  And many others here would agree with you (that 
	"all men are xxx") is sexist.

	Kath, I'm really puzzled over what sparked your reply.
	Could you expound?  Pleeease?

					nancy b.

    
    Swallowing her pride, she steps forward and clearly states, in a meek
    voice:
    
    "I'm terrified of motorcycles"
    
    They look fantastic, free, wonderful.  But ever since day one I was
    taught they were death machines, and I even tried to ride one once.  He
    said I rode like a sack of cement.  I just couldn't relax enough - too
    much preprogrammed stuff, too much fear.
    
    More power to those who can, and do, and want to, though!
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is an excellent book,
    too.....
    
    

    Jody
    
    I'll ride behind someone on a bike..but my hindbrian and forebrain
    tells me that I'll surely die if I try and drive one!
    
    Bonnie

    Lorna, I'm a woman Biker.  I ride my own Harley.  I don't think
    you are a wimp for saying you enjoyed riding in a side car, and
    were perfectly happy with that.  Riding a motorcycle is not for
    every woman, nor man for that matter.  I think that Dawn mentioned
    the #1 reason why women ride, rather than being a passenger.  She
    wants to be in control.  However, there is certainly nothing wrong
    in NOT being in control.  As far as a side car goes, I've never
    riden in one, but I do understand that it takes a special understanding
    of them to be able to drive it.  They corner totally different and
    the weight distribution is different.  As a passenger on anything,
    or even in a car, I believe that it is REALLY important to have
    trust and confidence in the driver.  If you have that, than the
    rest should just be fun, and I say go for it!
    
    
    Why do woman ride their own?
    
    I can only speak for myself.  It's very difficult to explain to
    non-Bikers.  It's like trying to explain the color of the sky to
    a blind person, or explain the sound of the wind to a deaf person.
    I simply experience certain "high" when I'm on my bike, the wind
    in my face, the smell in the air, the high and low dips in temperature
    as wind along a quiet road.  I especially love the mountain roads,
     but then again, I love riding along an ocean coastal route, too.
    Physically you become one with bike, as you corner, as you lean,
    as you go over the hills, dipping down, and then back up again.
    If you've ever ridden a horse thru an open field, then down a winding
    path thru the woods, then you have an idea of what its like.  It's
    not the same, but it's similiar.  Riding a motorcycle is truly one
    of those experiences that you must experience for yourself, and
    love it, or it just not likely to be the thing for you.
    
    I know that there are some woman who ride, and it's really just
    a hobby sort of thing, something they do on an occasional warm sunny
    afternoon.  That isn't the case for me.  Biking is the first thing on
    my list after my children, and they might suggest that sometimes, they
    think it comes before them :-)   Fortunately, my children are pretty
    much grown up, and doing their own thing, so it's not too often
    that they even notice I'm gone.  Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd much
    rather ride on a sunny day, temp at 75F. but I've ridden in all
    sorts of lousy weather.  I was out last Sunday, and let me tell
    you, it was darned cold.  Still, those few hours were wonderful.
    You dress as warm as you can, and go for as long as you can stand.
    Since I also ski, I can assure you that other skiers can appreciate
    this aspect. It's just like being on the mountain, you're freezin'
    your buns off, and complaining like heck, but you just keep doin'
    it.
    
    Whats a Biker woman like?
    
    Well folks again, I'm going to speak for myself, only.  No, I take
    that
    back, before I talk about myself, I am going to generalize a little.
    Your typical woman Biker is just like a whole lot of you.  As I
    said, she wants to be in control.  She probably rode "pillion" for
    a least some time, and just decided that she wanted to get her hands
    on that throttle.  She wants to go go wherever SHE wants to go. 
    She wants to go as fast as SHE wants to go.  and she wants to be
    with the people SHE wants to be with.  She wants to lead her life
    by HER standards, and SHE either pays the price of be "labeled""
    or she gives it up.  She's somebody wife, or sister, maybe somebody's
    mother, maybe your aunt, or perhaps your cousin.  She's more like
    you than you might want to think.  and yet, she's a lot different
    than a whole lot of you.
    
    Me, I'm just an ordinary woman.  I'm a mother (and all those other
    relatives, too) I'm thirtysomething years old.  I'm single and
    struggling like so many other women, as a single parent.  I
    have a decent job here at DEC,and of course, I want more money for
    the job I d:-)  I'm also an excellent seamstress, a folkartist,
    a craftsman, I dabble in carpentry, and since I just bought a home,
    I'll be spending a great deal of time fixing it up.  I don't very
    often pay other people to repair things for me.  Except my motorcycle,
    which unfortunately for me, I can't do much more to than change
    the oil, and adjust the chain.  and I'm envious of all my men friends
    that do all their own maintainence, and I'm down right jeolous of
    those woman who do. :-)
    
    When you see me walking down the halls of PKO, I look like lot's
    and lot's of women here.  I dress well, ver conservatively.  I very
    seldom wear jeans, except when I ride my scoot in.  Even then I
    always wear good shoes, and a nice blouse (large saddle bag)  I
    have average auburn hair, and no, there are no horns, no third eye,
    or anything else to make you turn and stare at me. I'm attractive
    in my own way.  I don't have to wear a bag over my head.
    
    Why do I tell you all this?  Because here in this file, are lot
    of woman who have fought long and hard to be accepted and valued
    for what they are.  A woman first, and lot's of things that follow.
     
    Choice, that what being a liberated woman is all about to me.  The
    right to do what I want with whomever I want, even if in the other
    people I choose to spend my time with, to call my friends are
    considered inferior in ANY way, to you.  It's not too often that
    I bother with trying to "educate" anybody about much of anything.
    99% of the time, I really don't care what strangers think of me.
    I'm surrounded with loving friends and family. but (isn't there
    always a but) every now again, some little thing comes along and
    sparks just a little flame... and I say OK, I make the effort...
    
    So, I made the effort, and I hope that the next time, anyone anywhere
    sees someone like me, a little different, be it on a motorcycle
    or whatever it is, that sets that person a little apart from the
    "norm"  we'll all try to remember, that we're more alike than we are
    different.
    
    SandieD
    
    ps.  please forgive the typo's and misspells, I've got a very slow
    line in, and it's getting late

    re .42 Jody, I know what you mean - they scare the fluids out of
    me too. 
    
    A woman friend of mine (a certified Harley mechanic BTW) refused to go 
    out with me 'cause I didn't ride. Oh well...

    Ref Sandie Dionne 1088.44
    
    Sandie, that was a great note, and I am glad you took the time to enter
    it: see, trying to educate others is not always a lost cause!
    
    Generally:
    
    I am terrified of motorcycles, I am sure it comes from being forced to
    ride horses when I was a kid. I got thrown from the #$@!&* animal so
    many times I swore I'd never ride anything anymore!
    
    Specifically:
    
    I'd like to ask the bikers among us to give me a feeling of the
    ***DANGER*** of riding a motorcycle. I have never kept my children from 
    riding horses, and Melinda (16) now has a moped - we live in the
    country, and buses are unreliable. Laure (10) will also have a moped
    when she is 15 and changes schools (fair is fair!). Now they both
    stated they won't want cars later, but motorcycles. My gut reaction
    was, and still is, that I damned well didn't spend 18 - or more - years
    raising those girls so they can just get killed being thrown from their
    motorcycles. Tell me I am paranoid? Please?
    
    Joana
    
    

    
    
    Bravo SandieD!  Last night I tried to put into words reasons why
    I ride....and yes, it is difficult to explain.  I think you did
    a marvelous job!  The sights, sounds, smells, awareness, freedom
    and exhilarations of riding are quite an experience - and once I
    get a taste of it, I was hooked.
    
    Here's some highlights from articles from Entrepreneurial Woman
    (Mar/Apr 1990), Taxi (Aug 1989) and Savvy Woman (Nov 1989):
    
    o In the 70's it seems a woman's place was on the rear of a
    motorcycle, if anywhere at all.  Not anymore.  Thanks to some shrewd
    marketing tactics, improved design and a healthy dose of sex appeal,
    hundreds of thousand of women have discovered the joys of wind-in-
    the-face motorcycle riding.  Industry experts estimate that there are
    now some 500,000 women riders in the US.  And the newest rider
    probably has a bachetlor's degree.
    
    o Why the sudden surge in motorcycling?  In part, it's just another
    arena in which women have asserted themselves.
    
    o Last year several manufactures sponsored a cross-country trek,
    recreating the historical first coast-to-coast ride by women, a 1917
    jaunt by Adeline and Augusta Van Buren.  The women selected for the
    sentimental journey included Courtney Caldwell, a 39-year-old
    California publisher and mother of two teenagers, and Dr. Carol Auster
    Gussman, a professor of sociology at Franklin and Marshall College in
    Lancaster, PA.
    
    o Today about 10 percent of all motorcycle purchases are made by women,
    up from a minuscule 1 percent two decades ago.
    
    o Motorcycle makers have also retooled their public image, getting
    women into the picture - literally - in their ad campaigns.
    
    o Newest women bikers are different from the image we conjure up of
    female bikers.  Their speech is not peppered with biker slang, but,
    instead, seems lifted from a public-relations stylebook.  "We are
    dedicated to image enhancement," says Courtney Caldwell, president of
    the American Women Road Rider's Alliance.  An organization for "career-
    oriented women who ride motorcycles," AWRRA's 500-member list includes
    advertising executives, lawyers, doctors, CPAs and computer
    programmers.
    
    ------------
    There are several woman's organizations in the US --
    
    o American Women Road Riders' Alliance - founded in 1986.
    
    o Motor Maids, Inc. - founded in 1940 is the oldest women's motorcycle 
    organization in the US.
    
    o Women in the Wind - founded in 1979.
    
    o Women On Wheels - founded in 1982.  This club also welcome men to
    join as "support members."
    
    o Ladies of Harley - founded in 1986.  Their adverts proudly exclaim,
    "I AM WOMAN.  HEAR ME ROAR."
    
    ---------
    
    You say you can't afford a bike.....my first bike was a used Honda
    125 and cost me $300.  Not mechanical?  Me neither!  But, I'm learning
    as I'm going.  My male friends are always helping and teaching me (the
    folks in CYCLES are there too!).  Riding a bike that you can't pick up?
    As mentioned before, there *are* ways to pick a bike up - but, you
    progress - learn on a small bike, learn how to handle the bike so you
    *don't have* to pick it up.  Again, the MSF course is highly
    recommended.
    
    And Kath G's major point is that "bikers" are predominately male and
    that it's about time that women are rising up in that world.  All ages
    are riding (both male and female) - from 12-year-old kids to
    grandparents.  It's a sport open to *everyone*.  The people are free-
    spirted; it's a brotherhood (or sisterhood, if you must) and a strong
    family feeling; the people are supportive and friendly.
    
    "Motorcycling is pure romance.  A love affair with adventure."
    
    Well.....I think I've rambled enough....
    
    ---Marlene  (who_purchased_a_new_Yamaha_750_Virago_two_months_ago!) 
                                                
    
    

SandieD (.44)

Great note! Almost makes me want to get a motorcycle. I'm too afraid
to though. I had it drummed into me that motorcycles=certain death,
and I can't shake the fear. 

I imagine a lot of you women bikers had the same danger messages thrown
at you too. How did you get past that? Do you feel like you're doing
something dangerous when you get on a bike?

Kathy

>    I'd like to ask the bikers among us to give me a feeling of the
>    ***DANGER*** of riding a motorcycle. 

I was in a similar situation to your kids - I had a moped but NO WAY ON 
EARTH was Mom going to let me get a bike, no way no how!  (She is still
threatening to disown me! :-)  Her logic was that bikes are more dangerous
because they go faster...

Well...I asked my MSF instructor about this, and he says Mopeds are
*more* dangerous the motorcycles, because 1) they are smaller, and harder
to see, and bikers' biggest danger comes from not being able to be seen
by drivers.  2) They can only drive in city traffic, since they can't
handle the speeds necessary to be on highways, and city streets are more
dangerous than highways.  3)  One of the big advantages of a motorcycle
is it's ability to maneuver and accelerate *out* of trouble (my instructor
spent quite some time convincing us that we shou;ld learn to take
advantage of how much faster than cars we can go to avoid trouble); a 
moped doesn't have that ability.   4) Since the moped is slower than
a car it gets passed by cars, and it is more dangerous *not* to be in the
flow of traffic.

Anyway, that is what a trained instructor says.  My own amateur opinion
from my all of 8 hours on the motorcycle is that I feel I have a lot more
control and manueverability on it than on the moped.

D!

    As I said in mail to Sandie, discussing starting this topic, my
    experience is limited:  a couple months commuting in W.-Berlin on a
    borrowed BMW 250 (rain-slick cobblestones and Berliner taxies are
    no fun!) and then about three years commuting on a moped in Minnesota,
    summer and, yes, winter.
    
    My take is that you have rather less likelihood of getting in an
    accident on a big bike if you ride carefully, but that you are also
    much more likely to be wrecked if anything *does* happen.  
    
    On a moped, you're basically a bicyclist in speed, traffic position,
    and "feel"; on a big bike you're just another general vehicle, albeit
    faster, less stable, less visible, and more fragile; going off a moped
    at 20 is a far cry from going off a 250 (or whatever) at 60.  And
    fourwheelers are *incredibly* insensitive and oblivious to anyone
    smaller.
    
    						=maggie
            

    	RE: .49  D!
    
    	When I lived in Pheonix (the year after I graduated from college,)
    	I had a moped - for about a year.  
    
    	It had all the disadvantages you mentioned, but it was still such
    	fun that I longed to get a bike (a fairly small one) after I sold
    	the moped.  It was a strong desire for years and years - even the
    	faint similarities (to bike riding) that I experienced on the moped
    	were enough to get me "hooked" on the idea of owning a bike.
    
    	The right opportunity for owning one never came along, though, so
    	I eventually lost interest.
    
    	If I'd purchased a small bike instead of a moped, I'd probably
    	still be riding bikes now, I'm sure.  

    
    one of the biggest dangers is the people in cars. when they are
    involved in and acciedent with a bike the majority of them say.
    "but officer i didn't even see him".
    
    thats why i have most of my bikes loud if you don't see me you hear me.
    
    been riding for about 20 years and have had 5 minor mishaps.walked
    away from all and drove home from all of them.
    
    my first bike was also a 350 honda at at that time it was a big bike
    now i have a couple larger ones.
    
      900 Z1 kawasaki
     1100 kz kawasaki
      920 v-twin yamaha
     1200 harley davidson panhead (1956) that i will give to my son
          in three years.
    
    it really doesn't matter what you ride as long as you do ride.
    
    
    

	Somehow I just could not let this note pass.

	I wanted to get a bike back when I was in high school but
	my father said NOOOOO  WAAYYYY - so I didn't.  After I
	graduated and had a job that paid enough I bought a VW Bug.

	5 years and two kids later I finally got my bike.  It was
	a small Yamaha but I had been learning how to ride on my
	friends Harley (which I dumped a few times and drove into
	a clump of small trees once).

	When I could I would take my bike out and ride it on the
	backroads near a lake in Groton.  One day in the fall I went
	down a hill that turned into mud at the bottom and dumped
	my bike for the first time (like the bike stopped and I
	didn't).  That was the only time I was ever really afraid
	on the bike and I had to push it back up the hill and then
	clean us both off.

	I also got stopped by a cop once but as soon as he realized
	I was female he let me go saying he thought I was someone
	else.  Good thing since my permit had run out months ago.

	I like the freedom of the bike and the control of the machine.

	I don't ride anymore and I don't like bikes anymore because
	of bad associations.  Though a few years ago I went out with
	this guy who tired to impress me (or scare me) by going down
	495 at about 75 mph weaving in and out of traffic with me
	on the back.  I never went out with him again (if I am going
	to be on a bike going that fast I want to be alone).

	Over the years I have know Hell's Angles and I have know
	Sunday afternoon, multi-saddle bag bikers.  Some I liked some
	I didn't.  To me riding is time alone not a time to ride in
	a group.

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |
			The quest for personal freedom leads one
			in many directions, some contradictory.

    My youngest sister is an active bike rider, all 5'2" of her.  When
    she leads, the guys in their club have trouble keeping up.  (Her
    husband has the sidecar, with their daughter and their dog.  You
    should have seen him before the daughter, when the dog was a passenger
    on the back of his bike.)
    
    Early in my marriage, our second vehicle was a 350 Honda, and I
    drove it.  Scared me half to death, I was *never* comfortable on
    it, and I couldn't pick it up when I dumped it.  (Maybe I should
    have gone to a class, rather than just learning from my ex.)  So 
    now I don't ride, at all.  But I tried, so it was an informed, 
    personal decision.
    
    Alison

re: .21
I'm surprised Margaret. You seemed so _normal_ :-).
	Mez

    
I am a licensed motorcycle driver/owner.  Most people who know me only 
moderately well are extremely shocked when they hear this.   On the other 
hand, most people who know my husband are not in the least bit surprised!   
He's an avid biker who owns/has owned many,many bikes.

Like several of the readers here, I took the MSF course a few years ago.
Indeed, there was a very high ratio of female/male .... there were 3 men
in the course (two teens who were taking it "because their mother made 
them" and one late-40ish father whose daughter was also in the course).   
Of the women, I was quite disappointed at the prevalence of the "poor, 
helpless me, aren't I cute riding off the course out of control" attitude.   
(I recall thinking at the time that a couple of them probably weren't too 
safe on four wheels!!)   So, these particular women didn't fit the "biker 
image" but I'm not sure that they qualify as bikers either.

I have gone to a number of biker events (Laconia, Americade, Italian meets,
etc) and I guess that my general impression is that the stereotype does NOT 
apply more often than it does....but that it might in a very general sense fit 
bikers that ride a particular brand more than another (i.e. the Harley
group (in general) APPEAR a little more rough-n-tumble than the Goldwing
group).   

Haven't ridden in two years...pregnancy put me out of commission last summer.
Also, I'd bet that I don't get out this year for a couple of reasons.  First 
off, I have never felt entirely safe riding on roads where there are other 
vehicles (which is just about everywhere!).   I'm even more leary of getting 
out and riding because I feel a heightened sense of responsibility to my son 
- most people don't walk away from motorcycle accidents.   I'm reasonably 
confident in my own skills, but it's the other guy that I'm worried about.    
The other reason issue is free time - I just don't have it - and if I did, 
riding wouldn't be my first choice of things to do!


cj/
    

    By the end of this week, I will be the proud owner of a Harley.
    Outside of the fact that my mother used to work for them and would
    disown me if I bought anything else, I bought it 'cause I'm short.
    
    Now all I need is training wheels.  Just kidding.
    
    -maureen
    

    Comment to Contractor (-.54) and any other bikers like him (I'm
    presuming Contrator is a him):
    
    Having a loud bike isn't necessarily going to protect you from the
    motorists who can't see you.  Many of them have their radios blasting
    so loud they won't hear you, either.
    
    Although I've never ridden or driven a motorcycle, I grew up in a
    scooter family.  I've piloted a Vespa motorscooter, and my brothers,
    uncles, grandfather, father, and cousins all rode and owned Cushman
    scooters (my grandfather had the local dealership for Vespas and
    Cushmans back in the late 50s and early 60s).  I've also seen
    various family members limping and bandaged, and in one case, crippled
    for life, from accidents with the scooters, hence my lack of interest 
    in gaining any more experience on motorized cycles.
    
    Re. biking in general, I have no negative stereotypes or hangups about
    bikers, male or female, now that the Hells Angels aren't the only
    bikers on the roads.  (Though I must admit that I still get a bit
    apprehensive when a _crowd_ of motorcyclists roar toward me.  Those old
    Hells Angels movies of the '60s are still part of my memory, you know.)
    But I do have definite negative attitudes toward bikers who weave in
    and out of traffic and "take advantage" of their smaller size to push
    in front of a line of traffic at a stop light.  And I most definitely
    have a problem with bikers (probably one biker in particular) who roar
    along I 290 in Worcester at very early morning hours (like 2 and 3 in 
    the morning), and you know full well _they_ know they're waking up 
    thousands of sleepers as their noise echos for miles through the 
    interstate canyons.  (Do any of you know who I'm talking about?)  Doesn't 
    matter to me whether they're male or female bikers, rudenes and 
    selfishness are still rude and selfish.
    
    But I'm sure none of you are that type of biker, so don't take my
    complaints personally.  I have the same complaints about discourteous
    drivers of four-wheeled vehicles as well.  And I do envy you the
    feeling of freedom.  I got just a taste of that feeling from the
    scooter, and it is marvelous.
    
    Karen                        

I think what *really* sounds like fun is dirt biking. And then you
don't have to worry about cars and trucks cutting you off (which is
my biggest fear about riding a motorcycle). But somehow I've never
been able to justify dirt biking as a hobby. You know....the environment
and all that, and you can't pass it off as transportation either....

Kathy 

    I learned to ride a bike when my brother got a small Honda. I didn't
    really have the nerves for it. I'd rather be riding behind with my
    arms around someone I was fond of. :*) The horses give me enough thrill
    of the wind in my hair. After 7 years working in the hospital I'd never
    ride a bike without a helmet.

    All this talk of motercycle women reminds me of a woman in my flight at
    basic traning. Her father owned a bike shop and she was a machanic. She
    had the Harley wings tatooed on her lower back just over the hips. She
    was in the service to be a jet mechanic and was just waiting for the
    first guy that tried to bull her thinking she wouldn't know anything
    about working on machines. She got a lot of that working in her Dad's
    shop and was tired of it. liesl

    
    Just for the fun of it, I read this note.
    
    I'm thirtysomething, I've owned my own harley for 6 yrs. this month.
    I learned to ride when I was growing up, we all had dirt bikes.
    I rode on the back for years, and after a bad accident caused by a
    careless tourist, I now ride my own.
    I can say that my parents may have influenced my (our) love for
    motorcycles, as they all rode harleys in the "olden" days. My dad
    was also a motorcycle cop in our small town in N.Y. when I was small.
    But they drew the line when I wanted to go to motorcycle mechanics
    school after I graduated.
    I'm into all of my arts and crafts, and we now have our own house that we're
    working on, so the biking time is less.
    
    I ride because-
    
    I love the freedom, the wind, the independence and the sound. I don't
    feel like I'm doing something "dangerous" as some other reply asked.
    I like to ride to work, and to special places, not just to "joy" ride.
    I've been rained on, hailed on and snowed on, but I still ride!
    When I got my bike, there weren't many woman riders here in Co. Spgs.,
    that spring, a few of my other friends also got their own. We had and
    sometimes still have a great time riding through Garden of the Gods or
    down to Canyon City. Now there are a lot of woman riders, why? I don't
    know.
    
    Attitudes--
    
    When you're a woman rider, depending on if you're at a party or a
    gathering, like a picnic, run or whatever---
    you put up with more crap from the women who don't ride and are jealous
    that you do, these women are under the impression that your husband,or
    someone else bought it for you.
    Not hardly, I had my bike bought with my money 3 yrs. before I
    even knew him! Actually I had my harley before he had his, he had a
    Triumph.
    I very rarely have attiudes or sexism(?) from men who ride. In fact at
    one party, I chose to ride on my friends, trike and one guy said to me
    "I can tell you ride your own, I said yeah how, he said you've got that
    look"... well I do have that proud look when I see Harleys and any
    other kind, it's not what you ride, it's that you ride.
    
    I don't like all of this reference to sexism, like a few replies said
    about those hollywood types that ride. Cute or sexy has nothing to do
    with riding. It goes back to the same thing,
    if you're not really educated on the subject or have first hand
    experience, then you don't really know what it's like. This will
    probably be the first and last time I reply in this file, because it
    doesn't interest me in the least, and I'm not worried about my rights
    as a woman, I'm happy with my life, job, motorcycle, husband, kids and
    my nascar fever with my favorite driver Rusty Wallace. Oh and yes, I
    didn't have any sisters, only 3 brothers, maybe that's why I'm happier
    than most of these women who have nothing better to do then complain
    about jokes,bikers, eeo, womans lib, files etc., because they're not happy
    with themselves or their own lives. Worry about the important issues
    like-
    1. save the environment
    2. the homeless
    3. taxes
    4. if Dec keeps us all
    5. making yourself happy
    
    Linda_May_Pflum
    (L_M_L)
                

    
    	RE: .63  Linda
    
    	Really enjoyed reading your note (about riding your bike in
    	Colorado Springs, especially, since I live here, too.)
    
    	All the snipes against women in the second half of your note
    	made me doubt your claim to be "happier" than some/many other 
    	women (because you complain about different things than some
    	other women do.)  Happiness is a subjective experience, and
    	not something that can be defined by someone else.
    
    	Aside from that - I'm happy for you that you enjoy riding so 
    	much, at least.  
    
    	Colorado is certainly a beautiful place for it!
    

    RE: motorcycles dangerous
    
    The most dangerous part of a car is the nut that holds the steering
    wheel.
    
    Same for bikes...replace "steering wheel" with "handlebars".
    
    You (obviously) have a lot less protection on a bike than in a car.
    If you hit anything or are hit BY anything you will...WILL...be
    injured. The trick is not to hit anything nor be hit by anything.
    
    How do you accomplish this?
    
    1. You take the MSF course.
    
    2. You do not drive as if the vehicle were a car.
    
    3. You make sure you have plenty of empty space around you. You
    constantly evaluate where you are, what's around you, where your escape
    routes are, what's happening 4 seconds ahead of you, what's happening
    12 seconds ahead of you (potential situations for you to deal with),
    what's going on behind you.
    
    4. You never ride faster than conditions warrant. That means just
    because the bike will DO 185 doesn't mean you need to go that fast.
    
    5. You never cut in and out of traffic.
    
    6. You always assume the driver of the car wants to kill you, and will
    if s/he can.
    
    7. You attempt to make eye contact with other drivers at intersections,
    rotaries, etc.
    
    8. *I* don;t drive in the city if I can help it, nor on extremely
    crowded highways.
    
    9. Never assume. If you can't figure out what's going on in the road
    ahead of you, stop before you get there and dam n well FIND OUT.
    
    A doctor said to me once "Motorcycles are dangerous." We got into a
    discussion and she said she knew a young man who was killed when he
    slid on an oil slick in the road. I maintain that there are things that
    young man could've done to save himself. Like, if you see a spot in the 
    road, don't ASSUME it to be harmless. If you can't stop in time to
    avoid something you scoped out 3-4 seconds ago, you are going too fast.
    
    Attitudes about motorcycles are dangerous. Attitudes like seeing how
    fast you can go around a curve, seeing "what she'll do", etc.
    
    Motorcycles have advantages over cars that can help you to avoid
    trouble. They are MUCH more maneuverable and have much better pick up.
    You protect yourself where you are disadvantaged (balance, protection)
    and you USE your advantages (maneuverability and pick-up).
    
    RE: statistics
    
    Stats in CA show that people who have had a safety course improved
    accident rates over non-course folks by 80-something%. 
    
    I think the accident rates of teenage (mostly)males skews the rates
    for all motorcyclists. You see lots of tourers on Gold Wings who have
    been around a long time, and lots of them (from cycle mag
    letters/articles) have never dropped the bike even at no-speed.
    
    Safe motorcycling is Ultimate Defensive Driving.
    
    --DE
    

    
    	RE: .65  Dawn
    
    	Another way to make motocycling safer is to increase public
    	awareness.
    
    	After hearing a lot of public discussions about the most common
    	ways that cars kill/injure people on bikes, I changed my driving
    	habits in my car.
    
    	When I am turning left and a motorcycle approaches, I *never*
    	assume that I have accurately guaged the speed of the bike enough
    	to make my turn in the path of the approaching bike.
    
    	I *always* give the bike the right of way, unless it's so far down
    	the road that I'd have to wait more than 30 or 40 seconds to let
    	it pass.
    
    	Also, I watch for bikes (so I won't cause an accident by failing
    	to notice them,) and I never crowd them.  
    
    	Seems to me that there are other rules that car motorists could
    	follow to help make it safer for bike riders.
    
    	If you have a more complete list, I would love to see it here.

    
    
    -2
    
    the reference is about some comments and feelings related from
    one of your readers to a file, that I hold very dear. This person I
    gather claims that the unnamed file is sexist. I don't feel that way.
    I see the feelings at work all of the time, about how woman feel about
    jokes, and men in particular. I don't feel that way, I have a fairly
    good sense of humor, maybe that's why I laugh at the jokes and tell
    them to my husband later. But to try to put other files out of
    commission, because it hurts their feelings about what is sexist and
    what isn't, is what I was getting at.
    It's like the door door religious pushers, salesmen and phone
    solicitors, you know what I mean??
    we all feel differently about each and everything and can't take
    offense to everything.
    If we all put our energies into the really important issues in life
    like, the elderly, homeless, and the environment, we may all enjoy
    a longer happier life and helping people instead of hurting, seems to
    be the better way I think.
    
    oh well-
    
    L_M_L                     

	I have ridden a bit, but never held a motercycle license or permit.
Usually just a friend's bike in a nearby parking lot, and I did ride behind him
a lot one summer.  I do have something of an informed opinion of accident 
statistics however.

	I worked for the National Highway Safety and Traffic Administration
Office of Crashworthiness Research (NHTSA OCR) for a little over 3 years.
It boils down to this:  Your chance of being seriously injured *once you are
in an accident* are much higher on a bike than in a car.  The major reason
is that there is little protection for the rider from the bike.  Cars offer
a great deal of protection during the "event" (to use the NHTSA term) and one
major benefit to wearing seat belts is to revent ejection from the vehicle.
Anyone who rides a bike without a helmet is plain crazy.

	I toy with the idea periodically of getting a bike and my license.
Most of my friends have given up their bikes, but I think I could really
enjoy it.  But, I just bought a house, so I guess the bike will need to
wait a while...


						--Doug

    We used to own a Vespa motorscooter, and I loved to take it out on the 
    backroads of Germany.  It's a great way to see the countryside, and a 
    great feeling.   As many others have said, it is a very hard feeling 
    to describe, and it has been a long time since I rode.  I would love to 
    get another scooter or a bike, and may when I can afford it...
    
    Linda

re: .67 (Linda Pflum)

>    the reference is about some comments and feelings related from
>    one of your readers 

I assume you mean me?

>But to try to put other files out of
>    commission, because it hurts their feelings about what is sexist and
>    what isn't

"Put the file out of commision"?   I beg your pardon?  That was hardly
my intent.  I wouldn't if I could, and I really doubt I could anyway.
It's not like I went to Personnel or something...  Where are you getting
this idea that I was maliciously trying to get rid of the file or something?

>    If we all put our energies into the really important issues in life

Some of us differ on what we consider "really important".  The issues you
list are very important to me.  So are some other issues, and one of them
is sexism and misogyny.  Fortunately, there is *someone* out there who takes
just about any issue seriously - else some issues would get ignored.  You
work on those isues *you* consider important.  I'll work on those issues
*I* consider important.  We'll both do the world good.  Just don't tell me
what should and shouldn't be an important issue to me.

D!

> Note 1088.65 by SUPER::EVANS 

>    6. You always assume the driver of the car wants to kill you, and will
>    if s/he can.
    
Nice note, Dawn. Especially 6. :)  That's how I try to drive my car too. 

>    7. You attempt to make eye contact with other drivers at intersections,
>    rotaries, etc.
    
This is brilliant! Heard a motorcycle rider instructor on KPFK in LA 
talk about who kills motorcyclists.  Listen to this!  Statistics say 
that 90% of the drivers who run over motorcyclists say they "didn't see 
them."  This 90% has never ridden a cycle and knows no cyclists; they 
are conceptually blind to motorcyclists.  Likewise, riders and 
relatives of riders rarely run over a motorcyclist, cause they see the 
cyclist first.

I sold my cycle in 1970 ... a Yamaha 55 or 90 cc; it was so long ago 
my memory has faded.  I do remember that my mother did not speak to
me for two weeks after I bought it. She had a point; I was a very poor 
driver and I'm lucky I didn't kill myself. 

I salute you folks who ride in New England.  Riding with a hundred 
feet of visibility makes me nervous!!!        Meigs

    
    Since I've been riding bikes, I've noticed that I'm more aware
    of my surroundings even when I'm in the car.
    
    While on the bike, not only do I try the eye contact with folks in 
    other vehicles, I also watch their wheels (since eye contact is 
    rather difficult from a distance) - this'll tell me which direction 
    they're headed and if they're "inching" forward.  
    
    I don't trust people's turn-signals either!  
    
    And parking lots....whew, what a challange *they* can be!
    
    ---Mar()
       (who's_Mom_first_objected_to_any_of_her_kids_purchasing_
        a_bike,_but_now_loves_to_tell_all_the_relatives_and_friends_
        that_her_*daughter*_rides!)
        
    
    

    Back in the 60s, my best friend, Wendy, and I chopped our Hondas in our
    apartment over the winter.  We were riding with a club back then and
    at the time, were the only women in Worcester riding.  After one year
    of riding it stock, I gave my little Honda 160 scrambler, (hey, I'm
    only 5'2"), a peanut tank, a Harley 2-level seat, California
    pullbacks for bars, 6 inch extended front end, frame molding, custom 
    paint, (a beautiful icy green), and chrome, chrome, chrome!
    
    The other women, (none of whom rode), would tell us they were envious 
    that we had our own bikes but I never noticed any outright jealousy.  
    On runs, we were  always up near the front with the "pretty bikes".
    
    What are biker women like?  If you mean women who own their own, I'd
    agree that they are as varied as women who drive Corvettes.  The "old
    ladies" however, were quite a bit different.  Granted this was back in
    the 60s but even then I was shocked at how oppressed these women were.
    The attitude seemed to be that abject submissiveness was the price they
    paid for the "honour" of riding with these guys.  And the Angels were
    the worst.  I've seen women grabbed by their hair and thrown toward the
    refrigerator to get the guys' beer.  You did what you were told,
    period.  And they'd wear this treatment as badges of honour!  Women were 
    used, abused, chewed up and spit out.  Having your own bike was pro-
    tection against this.  Wendy and I were treated more like "prospects", 
    guys who were trying to join, than old ladies.  
    
    I found cops to be more of a pain once they discovered it was a female 
    they had pulled over.  One time we were out, we were pulled over just 
    because the cop wanted to look at us.  That's what he said!  And he made 
    us stay there while he radioed his buddy who also came to look.  My 
    helmet was the old Marlon Brando style that's a half helmet in what 
    looks like a leather hat.  Once when I was stopped, the cop smashed me 
    on the head with his nightstick and said, "If that wasn't a helmet, it 
    would have been your own fault".  Another cop made Wendy tap the contact 
    lenses in her eyes, (the old days of the plastic lenses), to prove she 
    was wearing them.  
    
    We started out with a cop as president (!) but soon an ex-angel started 
    hanging around and everyone just kissed his feet and soon he became 
    president.  And the club turned nasty.  The first thing they did was 
    "tab" the cop's beer and take him on a run.  If it wasn't for Wendy, I'm 
    sure he'd be dead now because she decided to ride with him and when he 
    started getting off, (a new experience for him!), she made him pull
    over, they switched and she took him home.  And she took a lotta crap 
    for doing it, too.  He's still a cop today and I always smile when I
    see his name in the paper for anything.
    
    The women in "outlaw" bike clubs are completely submissive to their men 
    but they are absolutely brutal to each other and to non-bikers.  Women 
    who ride are generally just like everyone else.  It was a great
    education and a wonderful experience and I wouldn't trade those years
    for anything.                    

    RE: Suzanne - What can Auto Drivers do?
    
    First, what you said about being very aware that bikers are around
    is an excellent start. AND understanding that judging the speed of
    a motorcycle is much more difficult that judging the speed of a car.
    It's best to wait if you aren't sure - the consequences of cutting
    off a bike are much worse than cutting off a car. While the biker may
    be able to maneuver out of the situation, there might not be an
    opening, and (as Snoopy says when ice-skating) "there's a lot to
    be said for having four legs (wheels)."
    
    Another good thing is to NEVER tailgate a motorcycle. If they go down
    for some reason, and you can't stop in time, knowing it was your fault
    won't make you feel any *better*. Hitting the bumper of the car in
    front of you if you're tailgating is somewhat different than knowing
    there's a person *under* your wheels. I also keep my distance *lots*
    of distance - between me and a biker who is acting irresponsibly. Even
    tho' *they're* doing the stupid thing, you won't feel any better about it
    if you hit them.
    
    I realize that bikers do things that irritate car-ers, but don't give
    into the temptation to play games as you might if the other idiot were
    in a car. The consequences are really much too deadly. It's a small
    percentage of riders who do stupid things and give us all a bad name,
    but they are of course the most noticeable. 
    
    Awareness is the key, though. Always know that a bike might be anywhere
    on the road. Always know that you are probably not going to think it's
    going as fast as it is. Always know that you CAN take the right-of-way,
    but someone might be seriously hurt if you do.
    
    If anyone can think of anything else we need to consider, please reply.
    
    Thanks, Suzanne.
    
    --DE
    

    As a rule of thumb, how much room should there be between a car and a
    motorcycle on the highway?  (Assuming that neither driver is doing
    "stupid tricks".)
    
    This note has provided some very useful, sensible information.  Thanks!
    
    Judi
    
    

>    As a rule of thumb, how much room should there be between a car and a
>   motorcycle on the highway?  (Assuming that neither driver is doing
>   "stupid tricks".)

The MSF course says a motorcycle riding between two cars should keep at *least*
two seconds (count the time it takes you to pass a stationary object and the
time it takes the other person to pass the same object) between you and the car
in front of you, and you and the car behind you.  The biker is responsible for
maitaining distance between him/her and the person in from of him/her.  if you
are behind the biker, give him or her enough leeway so that he can easily 
maintain the two second gap between you and him/herself.  Obviously the actual
distances vary depending on the speed you are going.

Also, bikers are advised to keep a "cushion" between them and other riders
to provide an "escape route".  This means they don't want you riding right
next to them.  Pull ahead, or let them pull ahead, so that they don't get
boxed in.  (Arg, hot button time: people who drive next to me on the highway
at *exactly* the same speed I am going.  Even in a car, I don't like having
someone *right* next to me - nowhere to go if something goes wrong!!)

D!

    
    At least I signed my name.
    
    L_M_L
    
    as for motorcycles obviously you don't know a thing about them or the
    people that ride them or this note wouldn't be in here. If you
    have questions about motorcycles and "who" rides them and why take your
    questions about motorcycles and safety opinions to the appropriate
    notesfiles.
                                   

    A rule of thumb that I use (from my bro-in-law and my ex).  Picture
    the cycle as the driver's seat of a *big* car.  (Old-style Caddy
    or Lincoln.)  Paint an imaginary car around him as the *minimum* 
    safe space he needs.  Then give him as much additional buffer space 
    as you would a car.  
    
    I tried to follow the same rule as a cycle driver.  Position *me*
    so I was where a car driver would be.  Made it *somewhat* easier
    for other cars to see me, and more bail-out room to the right if
    needed.
    
    Alison

>    At least I signed my name.

Huh?  As compared to who?  Me?  I *always* sign my name.  (And if you are
really curious what my "given" name is, there is always ELF or the Intro
note, or any of the regulars in this file, all of whom know my "full" name.
Or you could even ask me.)

What's the big deal about signing your name anyway?  Your username is
attached to every note you write anyway (unless youhave a temporary
account - HPSTEK::CONTRACTOR, for instance: you should sign in.)  That
is enough to fully identify you.  (It's enough to find you in ELF.)

>    as for motorcycles obviously you don't know a thing about them or the
>    people that ride them or this note wouldn't be in here. 

Who is "you"?  Obviously some people in the file know a lot about
motorcycles.  Some people don't know anything about motorcycles.  So?
If *you* don't want discuss motorcycles in =wn=, not one is forcing you
(or even asking you) to.

We discuss all sorts of things in there, some of which relate even less
to gender than motorcycles.  That is because the notesfiles is "topics of
interest to women", and women can be interested in just about anything.

>If you
>    have questions about motorcycles and "who" rides them and why take your
>    questions about motorcycles and safety opinions to the appropriate
>    notesfiles.
 
Let me get this right - you come *in* here to tell us *not* to discuss
something amongst ourselves that we find interesting?

D!

    As a person who doesn't ride a motorcycle, this note has provided
    safety information to me *as a car driver* that is useful.  Chances are
    that I wouldn't otherwise have been able to read such a range of
    opinions on this subject.
    
    If this information makes me, as a car driver, more aware of motorcycle 
    safety on the road, it would follow that it will benefit those who choose 
    to ride a motorcycle (i.e., now I have a sense of how much room is
    needed between a car and a motorcycle)?
    
    Judi
    
    
    

    This goes way back to the beginning of this string...
    
    Last week I had to evict a couple tenants.  For some reason my
    maintenance person rented an apartment to the better part of a
    gang of bikers.  And we're talking bikers in the traditional HD
    style :>)  Needless to say this was an interesting (and almost
    painful) experience.
    
    With this group of gentlemen were 4 women who could best be described
    as "mamas".  
    
    Could someone please explain to me why this role is attractive to
    anywoman?  It makes no sense to me. 
    
    -maureen
    

    Well, at least we agree on the mental image :>)
    

Herb,

I know you don't want to debate the reality of the stereotype, but I just
wanted to warn against drawing conclusions about people's backgrounds,
mental health, etc, from stereotypes.  It is hard enough to *guess* at
the type of household someone grew up in when you actually get the chance
to talk to someone, figure out their views and feelings, etc.  To make
guesses based on a stereotype that, rather than reflecting any indidual
person, is actually a comglomerate (usually of the worst traits of)
a wide range of people.

You and I have clashed on this before.  It is just as much of a hot 
button for me now was it was then - you don't have the information (even
assuming the stereotype is true) to draw those kinds of conclusions about
people.  Just because they aren't living a lifestyle you approve of, 
does not mean that they had an unhappy childhood, are mentally 
unstable, have a low self-esteem, etc etc.

And after all, if they truly *are* happy that way, and not hurting anyone
then who am I to disagree?  And who are you, as well?

On the other hand, I do share Maureen's curiosity about *if* it is true,
then why would anyone want to live like that?  (By that I mean the 
traditional "old lady", like Sandy described, who gets abused etc.)

D!

    and don't forget to wear a belt when you ride.  
    remember, when you fall you are just testing your leathers..........
                      
    

    The art of falling off lies in convince onlookers that you 
    intended to fall.
    
    

    RE: chain mail
    
    Heavens no! You'll send out sparks if you slide....no good near the
    gas tank!  <what's the icon for ironic humor?>
    
    
    More about what car drivers can do:
    
    When you are pulling out of a parking space PLEASE LOOK. I mean REALLY
    LOOK.  I almost got it again yesterday....car pulled out of a parallel
    space just as I got even with it. Luckily, there was nothing on the
    other side of the road, so I gunned it and counter-steered. And sports
    fans....this person had NO idea I was there. None. Despite the fact
    that my biking partner had JUST passed, and there was traffic
    consistently on the road. 
    
    Every time I've ALMOST had an accident has been due to some auto driver
    being unaware, and my lucking out, either with driving skill or being
    able to muscle the bike as needed.
    
    Parenthetically, this is one of those situations in which a Moped would
    have been in big trouble (probably) simply because it was sheer power
    and responsiveness that was needed. [Of course, you can always just
    pick up the moped and run like h*ll. <chuckle>]
    
    Really, folks. The most important thing is to LOOK. Look for
    everything... cars, and objects smaller than cars. And don't
    under-estimate the speed of a motorcycle.
    
    Under the heading of "courtesy", it's also nice if you're at an
    intersection or merge, and an oncoming bike is almost as close as you
    are to the intersection, let them go so they can keep moving rather
    than have to stop, put their foot down, maybe shift, and start up
    again. You can keep rolling, but past a certain point, the bike won't
    have enuff momentum to stay upright, so it's a nicety to wave a bike
    through in those situations. When this happens, most of us try to
    wave and thank you, but don't assume we're rude if we don't....our
    right hand is working the throttle and our left is working the
    clutch... so we might be needing 'em both at the minute. We nod if we
    can, but it's easy to miss that. So thanks in advance for the right
    of way.
    
    --DE
    

    I can't imagine anyone here doing this...in fact, I can't think
    of why *anyone* would do this...but since it has happened to me
    more than once, and on high speed highways, yet....
    
    Please don't drive in a biker's lane. Yes, we only take up half of it
    at a time, but really....we *are* entitled to all of it! You may
    notice bikes riding along the "high-speed lane" side of their lane,
    and then switching to the "low-speed lane" side of their lane. One
    reason is that 18-wheelers have a tremendous wind backwash, and we
    try to avoid that by moving over as far as we can. 
    
    Believe me, it's extremely disconcerting to realize that a car going
    55 or more has nestled two of its wheels into your lane. Not to mention
    dangerous.
    
    --DE
    

I tried to pass two bikers in the right hand lane of a 2-lane the other day.
The one in the 'left-hand' side of the lane was into the virtual space of the
real left-hand lane. That made me very nervous. It looked like they were trying
to position themselves in the two halves of the lane, even though they weren't
in parallel. But I just didn't know what to do about the one sticking into my
lane. Can anyone explain this behavior?
	Mez

    You know, since I bought this bike, I haven't encountered ANY
    of that nasty sexism from the men who ride.  What has occured
    is some good natured teasing ( along the lines of... "here let me
    drive it and you can ride behind" folowed by "over my dead body")
    and a lot of serious advice and    offers to teach me to ride the 
    beast (particularly important since I haven't a clue as to what to 
    do with this thing). And one more thing - lot's of encouragement.
    
    The teasing is an interesting social "dance" that seems to be played
    out with each new convert.  There's always a smile after I explain
    that I will personally maim the first person who touches my bike.
    It took a little while to realize this was the same game the guys
    play with each other.
    
					-maureen
    

    RE: .92 - Mez
    
    I believe the behaviour was to prevent exactly what I was talking about
    in an earlier note....keeping car drivers in their lane. Also probably
    allowing as much space for the partner-bikers in their one lane. You
    do ride staggered, but close, as partners on the road. You also
    try to avoid the middle of the lane, where all the grease and gunk
    is...
    
    Herb, you know damn well if you opened a door for me I'd push your
    face in. Chewing glass all the way.
    
    
    
    :-)
    
    (Relax, people. Herb and I are if not friends at least acquaintences.
    He can be over here in 2 seconds flat to discuss this.)
    
    --DE
    

I looked _really_ carefully. The hand and handle really looked like they were
in my lane's space. If a car was that close, I'd honk til they moved over.
	Mez

    
    
    
    
                  I bought a Kawasaki EX500 last July and
    I love it! My parents were worried (I just turned 19),
    and wanted me to take the safety course. I took it, and
    I'm glad I did. It prepared me for the road. Now, I'm
    thinking about buying a dirt bike. My brother races them
    and I've got several friends who are professional motorcross
    racers and I'm just dyin' to get out there, too.
                   I like riding because I feel free, and
    it's fun. Hard to describe. I haven't registered my bike yet 
    this year. Last year ALOT of my friends were in accidents.
    It makes me nervous. In fact two more were in an accident yesterday
    and I have no idea how they are.
                   About feminism.....it has nothing to do
    with riding a motorcycle. To look at me, you wouldn't think
    I'd ride a motorcycle. But I do. Doesn't matter what I look 
    like. Y'know what I'm tryin' to say? I "hang around" with 10
    guys that ride bikes and they don't make fun of me cuz I'm a
    girl. I'd be dissappointed if they did.
    
    
                   Sincerely,
    
                               Jennifer

    I'm prejudiced against motorcycles.
    
    I grew up in rural Ohio in the late 60's. Of the fifteen to twenty
    people that I personally knew that rode regularly, I knew of only
    one after about five years that had not been in a serious accident.
    I myself was almost killed in a set of freak driving circumstances
    that included a sudden hail storm. I knew of one guy killed, of
    six through the years that spent more than six months in the hospital,
    and several of those ended up with metal rods in their arms and legs
    to replace badly crushed bones. Most of them were not at fault in 
    these accidents, they were simply not seen.
    
    As much as one does to watch for motorcyclists, they are considerably
    harder to see than an automobile, and nothing will change that.
    
    Motorcycles offer no protection, and a minor accident in a car, that
    would be a fender-bender, can cause compound leg fractures to a
    motorcyclist. We all make mistakes driving; those made on a bike are
    much more serious.
    
    Out here in California it is legal to rider without a helmet, due to a
    powerful motorcycle lobby. Two prominent members of this lobbying 
    effort, actor Gary Busey, and rock star Billy Idol, have been seriously
    injured in the last year or so on bikes. Busey, without helmet, had
    skull fractures, Idol had compound leg fractures, among other injuries.
    
    It is also legal for bikers to ride down the lane edge between the cars
    which they do quite commonly on the freeway. The motorcycle cops do
    this as well, to beat the gridlock that sometimes occurs. Talk aobut
    dangerous....
    
    If and when I ever have children, the one and only rule that I will
    never bend is that they will not be allowed to own or ride
    motorcycles, while living in my house.
    
    -roger
    

    Skiing is extremely dangerous.  Just sit in the emergency station
    at any mountain, and watch the number of serious injuries that
    occur in the course of one day.  At Killington, at least 3 skiers
    are expected to get killed every winter.  A fellow Dec employee
    was killed at the Balsams during the 88-89 season.
    
    Waterskiing is extremely dangerous.  Broken necks, lifetime paralysis,
    is not uncommon, not to mention drowning.
    
    I mention these 2 sports, because I'm personally active in them.
    but what about skydiving, scubadiving, horseback riding, etc. ?
    there have to be lot's and lot's more activities that are extremely
    dangerous. 
    
    As I'm writing this, I'm reminded of a dear friend of mine, who
    is also a biker, when invited to go along on a ski trip said "What
    are you nuts?  There's no way you'd get me to strap 2 boards to
    my feet and and hurl myself down a mountain at 80mph! Anybody who'd
    do that is crazy!"
    
    Some people are happy in life to keep as much risk out of it as
    possible.  They simply don't want or need the "excitement".  The
    thrill doesn't outweigh the danger.
    
    Some people are not.  For me, obviously I need a certain level of
    thrill, danger, risk.  The important thing for those who are drawn
    to dangerous sports, is to recognize the risks, and then reduce the
    risk,and yet, maintain the thrill.  
    
    It is very difficult being a risk-seeker with children, because
    inevitably, if one of them is a risk seeker, they are going to expect
    you to understand and accept.  My children have a hard time with
    the concept of "do as I say, not as I do" :-)  As a parent, though
    to decide between keeping my children as safe as humanly possible,
    which is my desire, and allowing them to be true to themselves,
    well it's a darned tough decision.  I want to keep them safe and
    protected, but if it's at the price of keeping them in cage, well,
    I just can't do that.  I can educate them, and I can pray, but the
    final decision is theirs.  And I think this is true of every decision
    in life.
    
    SandieD                                                      

    
    all this talk about how dangerous bikes are is a bunch of ****.
    sure they are dangerous, and they are also safe as long as you keep
    your head. you alway have to have respect for the machine. when you
    lose this respect for it thats when something happens. and i have seen
    my share of happenings. i myself have been in 5 accidents and i have
    seen three people get killed on them also. this bit with billy idol
    and gary bussy happens every day just because their stars it got
    to the front pages of all the papers.
    
    its not the bikker who has to be made aware of the dangers its the
    people in cars who have to be told. we know how dangerous or how
    safe our bikes are. people in cars cut off bikes figuring they can stop
    on a dime. its those people that have to be shown about bikes.
    
    helmets do not save lives as some people think. they also cause
    whiplash as the added weight on your head snaps. they also happer
    hearing. they even block some of you vision.
    
    i for one wear a half helmet and when ever possible i wear none.
    helmets are tested in labs at speeds equiv. to 15 miles an hour
    which means if you fall in your tub it works fine. most of the
    helmets tested at 55 allfail except the real expensive ones.
    and almost no street rider owns these.
    
     were the bikers mentioned berfore evicted because they were bikkers
    or were they bad tenents. 
    for the one who wanted what kind of girls were "mama's" we had two
    with our club and they were runaways and needed a place to live.if
    more info about this style of woman bikers is wanted ask as i 
    don't want to offer it right out as some could get mad.
    
    frank
     
       

    In the news today.
    
    Billy Idol went back into the hospital today. Doctors were unhappy
    with the way his broken leg was mending, so they plan to put a
    metal rod in his leg.
    
    >i myself have been in 5 accidents and i have
    >seen three people get killed on them also.
    
    and you continue to ride. Why am I not surprised?
    
    Sandie, one difference between motorcycling and other risk sports is
    that the other partipants on the road, the car and truck drivers, are
    not playing this as a sport.
    
    In the risk sports you mentioned earlier, the accidents are largely
    the fault of the participant, and under the participant's control.
    I'm not sure that this is the case with motorcycles. You can be in
    the right and still be dead, due to the unpredictable behavior of an
    outside party that didn't see you.
    
    -roger
    

As one of those "nasty Harley Davidson" riders and recipient of mail from one 
of your more vocal militant members in this file, I'd appreciate the 
opportunity to make a comment in response to your questions, on how to aid 
motorcyclists in keeping the rubber side down.

Please drive a car as if *driving* was the activity. If driving, PLEASE;

A car is not a mobile seat in which you sit to sample a $2000 stereo system. 
It is *not* a place to read a book.
It is not somewhere to shave/apply makeup.
It is not somewhere from where you do shopping.
It is not somewhere to use the telephone AND be safe. (Split attention).
It is not stress elimination apparatus.
Left turning traffic does not *normally* have the right of way.
Please give a bike a bit of room to waiver. Everyday road conditions that we 
tend to take for granted in a car, can translate into hazardous surfaces to 2 
wheels.

And remember.....there are no prizes for being the first to arrive!


Thankyou.
Brian.

    All you people on two-wheeled vehicles:
    
    	Keep your headlight(s) on at all times; it makes you far
    	more visible.
    
    							Ann B.

    re: .104  (i think)
    
    The biker gang was evicted 'cuase they hadn't paid rent in 4 months.
    I'm funny about things like that.
    
    Also on mama-type women.  These women happened to be older and had
    been doing this for quite some time.  Personaally, I don't really
    care what they do, but why anyone would want to adopt this role
    is beyond me.  ANd I'm about as PI as you can get :>)
    
    -maureen
    
    

    RE: .106
    
    Most motorcycles now have the headlight wired so it goes on when
    you turn on the key. 99% of bikes you see on the road will have
    their headlight on.
    
    RE: motorcycles being dangerous
    
    *Attitudes* are dangerous. If you think you can do anything you want
    on the road, simply because you are in a "cage" and not on a bike,
    *you* are dangerous.
    
    If you think you have no responibility to look for motorcycles on the
    streets because "motorcycles are dangerous" *you* are dangerous.
    
    The danger in riding a bike comes from stupidity in driving. Sometimes
    it's the biker, sometimes it's the autoist. 
    
    Driving in the streets is not a Demolition Derby. If everyone drove
    SANEly, you wouldn't have to feel that you needed a ton of metal around
    you to feel safe. 99% of the time, if a biker alone slams into a tree,
    it was his own fault. And I'd bet my hat that 99% of it was due to
    speed.
    
    But when there are cars around, the story is different. For some
    strange reason, autoists seem to think they have total rights to the
    road. These are the same people who swear a blue streak when an
    18-wheeler cuts *them* off. But it's ok for the autoist to cut off
    a motorcycle.
    
    This smacks strangely of "If I'm bigger than you are, I can do whatever
    I want." or worse: an attitude that because "motorcycles are dangerous"
    the autoist is absolved of any responsibility toward them on the road.
    
    Are there bikers who drive stupidly? You bet. Makes my teeth itch when
    I see 'em. But those of us who drive sanely have as much right to the
    road as autoists who drive sanely. And if we *all* drove sanely, we'd
    ALL be safe.
    
    --DE
    

    
    roger. why do i still ride?
    
    i love motorcycles and i always will know matter how bad people drive
    in cars.
    motorcycles are a way of life for some. once its in your blood its
    there no matter what you do.and i really can't wait until my son is
    riding along side of me on his own.
    
    lights on are a good idea but a couple of years ago easyrider mag.
    did and article on this and they said.
    that the light on is good but it can also be bad. as it can be a focus
    point on a tired driver and he cvould head for it in his lack of
    concentration.
    
    born to ride.
    
    frank

    
    
    As a car driver who has no problems with people riding
    motorbikes........
    
    not all motorcyclists ride dangerously
    NOT ALL MOTORIST DRIVE INSANELY
    
    It IS very difficult to see motorcyclists sometimes but that doesn't
    mean we haven't looked.  Most motorists drive carefully and
    thoughtfully as do most motorcyclists.  It is the ones that don't which
    give each of us the bad name.
    
    		Holly    

    Holly (.110) has brought up a point that's been bothering me
    throughout this discussion.  For the most part I'm a safe driver
    (auto).  I don't recklessly endanger my life, my passengers' lives, or
    the lives of people who share the road with me.  I yield right of ways
    and stop at stop signs.  I signal my turns far in advance whenever
    possible.  When I drive, my eyes are in constant movement, checking the 
    road and its surroundings ahead of me, checking rear and side view 
    mirrors for activity behind and around me.  
    
    BUT I have nearly run a motorcyclist off the road.  I DIDN'T SEE HIM!
    (Actually, I have no idea whether the rider was a him or her.  I was
    too busy gathering my nerves back together to inquire.)  I have no idea
    where he came from, where he was in relation to my car, or whether he
    was driving safely himself.  He was suddenly just there.  What scares
    me most about this is that I honestly don't know what I could have done
    that I wasn't already doing that would have prevented the situation. 
    The comments in this string about motorists "watching" for
    motorcyclists have caused me to reexamine my actions.  I do -- and did
    -- watch for motorcyclists, along with other traffic and bicyclists and 
    kids playing alongside the road and dogs and cats and blowing trash,
    etc. etc.
    
    I have to wonder whether I'm losing my mind or whether the sheer speed
    possible on a motorcycle combined with the smaller size (in comparison
    to cars) can bring one onto the scene and into a blind spot faster than
    this driver, at least, can become aware of them and realize they're on
    the road with me.
    
    Fortunately the near accident has only happened once - so far.  But 
    motorcycles "sneaking" up on me happens frequently.  And I don't know 
    what I can do defensively any different from what I'm already doing.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Karen
      
                               

    Karen, if I remember correctly, are you noting from Irvine?
    
    [assuming yes] Like you, I'm a California driver, and since
    lane-splitting is legal here (for everybody else, thats when the
    motorcycles drive between the lines of cars) I know what you mean 
    when you say they come out of nowhere.  The first several months
    after I moved out here, I found their sudden appearance and zoom-
    by totally unnerving.  One learns mighty fast to take the *center*
    position in any lane, not to crowd right or left, "just in case".
    
    But over time, my driving habits grew to include two new ones; my
    mirrors are adjusted to include a deeper scan behind me along the lane
    lines, for one, and I'm much more aware of momentary motion flashes,
    some little peripheral hint which is often all you get.  Learning to
    cope with California motorcyclists has strengthened my driving skills,
    though its been at times a scary process.  Good luck to you.
    
    DougO

    
    	As reply .111 points out, she never saw the motorcyle and feels
    	she is an alert driver. This I beleieve is true, but at the same
    	time I find myself wondering. Did she really not "see" the
    	motorcyle, or was it she saw but it didn't register? I say this
    	only because I've had people in cars pull up to a stop sign, stop
    	and then pull right out in front of me (I had right of way). A
    	few of them didn't care, but for the most part, most of them were
    	shaking when they realized they almost hit me. They truely didn't
    	see me! Well, that's not true, they did see, but I feel due to
    	the smaller size it never registered in the brain. Sort of like
    	they expect to see another auto and if it's not a large mass of
    	metal the brain fails to register it???  Then again, maybe I'm
    	being kind and their real reason was to hit me.  :^) (naw, just
    	kidding!!!)
    
    	G_B

    I can't speak for other drivers, but I do know I see bicycles,
    pedestrians, animals, and, as previously noted, trash in the roadway
    and on the shoulder of the roadway. 
    
    would I register these and not a motorcycle?  Some subconscious
    hatred for motorcyclists?  I think not.  
    
    IMO, operators of any vehicle that "don't register" probably have their 
    mind on something other than the operation of their vehicle.  I'd like 
    to say I'm always 100% alert, but that wouldn't necessarily be true.  
    I can say I was alert the day I almost hit the cyclist, though.
    
    And, no, I'm not in Irvine, though today's New England weather makes me
    wish I were.  But thanks for the mirror tips.  I'll plan on adjusting
    mine forthwith.
    
    Karen        

    RE: Karen
    
    If you regularly see bicycles and other small objects, it *could*
    be that the motorcycle *was* speeding. It also could be that, since
    bicycles move so much slower, you "see" them closer and and can judge
    their speed much better. A motorcycle can be in a speck in the distance
    (nothing to worry about...you don't put it in the "queue of things
    to worry about") and RIGHT THERE a second later (Holy $*%&!! Where did
    *that* come from?!?!?)
    
    You may be used to judging Specks In The Distance as bicycles or other
    slow-moving vehicles, and so not anticipating their nearness to you.
    A motorcycle is a Fast Speck In the Distance Soon to Be Right Here.
    
    Look for the headlight - most motorcycles will ride with it on. Then
    realize The Speck may be a Fast-moving Speck.
    
    I find this happens to me with cars of certain colors. I'll look, and
    for some reason, not "see" a car that is gray or dull blue...and all of
    a sudden it's *THERE* (big-time!).
    
    Thanks for your willingness to become more aware of this stuff, y'all.
    
    --DE
    

    I also have nearly killed a couple of motorcyclists, although this
    could well be a debatable point as to who's responsiblity it is in 
    the lane-splitting here in California that is dangerous, but legal.
    
    To me, it is a form of cheating. When traffic slows up in the freeways,
    the cars have to stop, but the motorcyclists start cutting down the
    lanes between the cars, sometimes with very little clearance. To me, 
    they take their own lives in their hands when they do it.
    
    I also thinks it behooves motorcylists to be aware of the blind spots
    of autos and to stay in the line of sight if they are operating near
    cars, not hanging off the right rear fender, for instance.
    
    -roger
    
     

    RE: lane-splitting
    
    I agree. I scares the <bodily contents> out of me. The problem is,
    most motorcycles are air-cooled - they need to keep moving so as
    not to overheat. I *think* that's why it's legal to lane-split
    in CA - cuz of all the traffic tie-ups. 
    
    You bet. Responsibility cuts both ways. 
    
    --DE
    

    To see or not to see ...
    
    When I was in High School (in distant lives past) I had a scooter; a
    good sized one too. Did 60 MPH (alibet down hill) so it was *not* a
    toy. Driving it taught me to watch out for *all* motorists as they just
    didn't care to yield the right of way (or so I thought).
    
    Bottom line - I *am* sensative to two wheeled vehicles!
    
    Yet, a few months ago, I nearly wiped out a biker (had a Harley - a big
    one). I pulled out of a side street into minor traffic. I *didn't* see
    him (it was a him!). I looked both right and left (he was comming from
    my left) and the Avenue was *empty*. As soon as I pulled out, I heard
    his tire squeal. Scared the <bodily contents> out of me.
    
    I believe I'm sensative to bikers, yet I almost nailed one.
    
    Message:
    
    I looked *right through* him. I remember it vividly! I saw the
    buildings behind him, the emptiness in front of him, but I didn't see
    *him*.
    
    					Charlie.

    > .117  most motorcycles are air-cooled - they need to keep moving
    
    Well, ALL motorcycles are air cooled (even those that use water as an
    intermediate medium as well), just as all cars and trucks are (and
    people! Dogs! Cats!).  That doesn't mean they melt if they stop moving,
    even in California.  Now, if dogs couldn't pant, that would be a
    different story.  Couldn't we move the random motorcycle chat to some
    other conference?
    			- Bruce

    Re. "looking right through him"
    
    Recently I read that red and black are particularly dangerous colors
    for cars, since people have difficulty seeing them.  Since reading that
    and the contents of this string, I've been noticing that the vast
    majority of the motorcycles I see on the road are red and/or black.
    
    Could this be part of the reason that even attentive drivers have
    difficulty seeing motorcycles?
    
    Karen
    
    PS  If anyone's interested, I'll look up the reference for the source
    of this information.  Otherwise I'll be lazy and just report it.