Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I think that, if you are talking about men and women without college
    educations, then the man's entry point tends to be direct labor, ie
    shipping dock worker.  I also believe that it is every bit as hard for
    a man to work his way off that dock as it is for a woman to get out of
    the clerical role.  In fact, I think that it has become harder for them
    than it used to be.
    
    If you're talking college degrees, particularly the liberal arts type
    of degree that doesn't prepare you for a particular career or a degree
    which prepares you for a non-business career, your observations, at
    least as they pertain to women, are probably pretty true.  (I'd like to 
    believe that college educated women having to take clerical jobs in order 
    to gain entree into the business world is a less common phenomenon than 
    it was 18 years ago when I started out.)  However, I'm not sure that
    men with like qualifications get hired into management positions very
    often.  I'm not saying that they don't, just that it hasn't been my 
    experience here at Digital.  I'm wondering if, with the occaisional 
    exception, they just don't get hired at all.
    
    I also firmly believe that what many, if not most, women lack when it
    comes to career advancement is the necessary network.  
    
    Polly
    
         

    re .1 Polly, pour yourself a hug for your first paragraph.
    
    Dana- who's been a dockworker *forever*
    
    PS I remember you from a Hazardous materials course about 9 years
    ago, back when I was a
    dockworker :-)
    
    PPS I'm tunneling out under the walls !
    

    
>    Why is it that many women work their way up from the secretarial pool
>    to management, and men seem to begin at entry level management?
    
    I think for many women, the option of beginning at entry level
    management is closed to them.  Either they do not have the skills, or
    the training, or the credentials, or their skills and training and
    credentials are not valued by the potential employer to the point where
    they would give them the chance.  
    
    Or the potential employer may hear the woman say "I want to start
    *here*", and says, "okay, but you have to prove yourself and start
    *there* first".  Either they really feel the need to see a woman prove
    themselves, or they need another secretary and this looks like a good
    way to get one (if a woman starts as a secretary, there are many
    businesses which will probably guarantee that even if she DOES rise to
    lower management her pay will be scaled BASED on the fact that she was
    a secretary to begin with, which saves the company money).  I have 
    heard of women who tried to jump through the secretarial hoop placed
    before them (be a secretary and prove yourself, or get famliar with the
    department or whatever and then we'll see about promoting you), and
    they take the job, and are NEVER promoted, and wind up leaving the
    company frustrated and angry and disillusioned....
    
>    I've worked my way up from temp. to admin. sec. to project specialist,
>    and many times I saw a gaping void between men's and women's entry
>    positions.  
    
    This seems kind of like the bottom-end version of the glass ceiling (or
    is the glass ceiling fluid throughout the ranks, only solidifying hard
    enough to hit your head on at the top).  THIS is where the glass
    ceiling begins, with incredulity even towards excellent credentials
    (where women often must have better credentials to enter the arena
    where men of lesser credentials are often welcome - as I read recently
    in the book "Unnecessary Choices", about the lives of upper-level
    business women and their experiences in business).
    
>   this overlooks ability and the reality that women's
>    roles today aren't what they used to be (i.e., regarding single
>    mothers, men who choose to stay home to take care of the family, etc.).
    
    Yes.  Not only that, but it slows the change and progress that could
    come from more women in the workplace (more new thoughts, more new
    perspectives).  I think another reason that women are not welcomed with
    open arms into the workplace is that people (often men, but sometimes
    women too) do not TRUST women entering the workplace.  Even with the
    reassurance the woman is career-oriented, and has earned credentials X,
    Y, and Z.  For some reason there is disbelief in a woman's ability to
    perform in today's business world.  She may not be given the chance
    she would have had were she born male.  She may be made to earn the
    chance that a man seems to come by with less work.
    
    No it's not fair.
    
    -Jody
    
    

    How does one define entry level management position?
    
    For example, if a person with a liberal arts degree applied for an
    entry level position in management, what would be available?
    
    I have worked for several large corporations both in Massachusetts and
    California, and I have found similar challenges and frustrations.  it's
    almost like the teaparty in "Alice in Wonderland".  The entry level
    jobs do exist, but the qualifications and credentials are illusive.
    
    In the course of an interview with a major healthcare provider in
    California, I asked about the availability of in-house courses which
    were available for employees to develop skills and advance.  The answer
    was "Yes, there is a wide range of courses available, but the phones
    must be covered."  I was applying for a support position where I would
    be the only group secretary.  Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!  No, I didn't accept
    the offer of a position!  (The company also frowned on employees dating
    other employees and the women could not wear slacks.  This was in 1982
    in San Francisco.)
    
    At times, I feel that advancement through the ranks is a combination of
    the "Wizard of Oz" and "Alice in Wonderland".  The potential is there,
    but it just feels like the rules keep changing!
    
    Judi
    
    

    
    
    I think another difference exists, too.  I think that entry level jobs
    in areas like facilities, shipping, and some technician jobs that
    might be considered entry level are more likely to be offered to entry
    level men than to entry level women.  The woman is more likely to be
    offered a clerical or receptionist job, and guess what -- those jobs
    often pay less than the other jobs I mentioned.  Maybe JEC has helped
    with that in this company, and I should mention that I'm stating an
    opinion that I have formed only through anecdotal evidence -- not
    through statistical survey.
    
    Justine
    

    re .5
    
    To keep it simple, I'm postulating on the management path.
    
    There are many who rise up through the technical and service ranks to
    management. In this case I'm looking at those who choose management for
    a career and the discrepancy of the entry points that men and women
    experience.
    
    Does anyone have info on companies which have (or had) management
    training programs?  I remember that one company I worked for had one,
    but phased it out.  Unfortunately, I don't know why.  I've seen
    recommended management courses at Digital, but those are for people who
    are already in management positions.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong
    here.)
    
    Would a cohesive in-house management training program address the 
    inequities, or would it become another system to work around, rather 
    than through? And yes, who would pay for it?  
    
    No, the issue isn't as simple as providing education.  It also lies in
    the issues of pay equity, career tracks, attitudes towards women who
    choose professional career paths, and a myriad of social issues.  The
    good news is that there is acknowledgement that the inequity exists. 
    The tough part will be to come up with an equitable solution.
    
    Judi
    

    
    I think that beinge hired into an entry level management position is
    difficult for any gender and it seems to me that this is the way it
    should be.  I wouldn't want a manager who had never done my job.  A
    college education in business or liberal arts doesn't teach you a
    sepcific job skill.  Lets say you major in business, you learn about
    economics and how to, theoretically, handle people.  That doesn't teach
    you to be a product manager, cafeteria manager, shipyard manager or
    secretarial manager.  On the other hand, if while you were in school
    you worked in a shipyard, then you might be qualified to be a shipyard
    manager.  
    If someone wants to get into management, then I propose that they do
    what my fiance did.  Get a dual degree in business and something which
    is easily measured.   (like computer science or engineering.)  Another
    option is to get alot of internship experience while in school.  That
    way they can start out as and engineer or salesperson or whatever.  
    There is the other case of people who don't have the advantage of a
    college education.  If they find that prohibitive, why not join the
    army?  (If they have families, then I realize that the army is not an
    option.)  In this kind of case, then I would agree that men and women
    probably start out in different areas.  I don't know any male
    secretaries!  But I'm not sure that that isn't a self imposed
    restriction.  Personally, I'd rather start out as an admin than working
    in a steel factory.  
    Rachael
    

    FWIW, Judi, my 15+ years of business experience bear out your
    observation: college educated men (regardless of the degree) are hired
    into "management" (i.e., exempt-level) positions at a far higher rate
    than college educated women.  This statement is based on my observation
    of the several business organizations I've been part of and of the
    organizations my brothers and friends have been part of.
    
    Re. formal management training:
    One of the companies I worked for had a formal management training
    program.  Prior to the early '80s the program started with a
    supervisory training course offered to employees identified as
    potential managers.  The course was HEAVILY weighted toward male
    participants.  Then the enlightened '80s came along and the training
    was modified.  Now the company offered the supervisory training course
    _and_ a management training course.  Basic management concepts were
    taught in both courses, but the focus of each was different.  The focus
    of the supervisory training course was on supervising clerical and
    blue-collar workers; the focus of the management training course was on
    managing white collar workers.  Need I add?  The supervisory training
    course was HEAVILY weighted toward female participants who already were
    serving as managers of clerical groups.  The management training course
    was HEAVILY weighted toward male participants who had been identified
    as potential managers.  Participants in the latter course generally had
    a negative attitude toward the abilities and the potential of the
    participants in the former course.  How do I know?  I was one of three
    female participants in the management training course and had several
    friends and co-workers who were participants in the supervisory course.
    
    I hope things have balanced out in the intervening years, but wouldn't
    bet my coffee money on it.
    
    Karen
         

    Employment practices, one of my favorite topics. I started at DEC
    as a temp. for 6 month, got hired in, as an Employment Coordinator
    (same level as an admin sec). I suffered through that for 2 years
    and am now an Assoc. Ops Analyst, hoping to be a Information Systems
    Specialist by next year. I've been with DEC for only 2 1/2 years.
    
    I was a bad hire for DEC, not that I'm not a valuable employee but
    I was hired into a job I didn't belong. There were two strong reasons
    that this happened, DEC needed a person to fill the position, I
    was more than qualified. I wanted a job, I wanted a job at DEC. BINGO,
    a match. On the contrary. 
    
    There are all to many people (not just woman) like myself that hold
    college degrees (BS Management, CIS minor, Bentley College) that
    are hired in under false pretense. I am referring to the promise
    made by recruiters of "once you get into DEC you can get into the
    right job". Well any one that has been here for a half a day knows
    that this is mega-BS!  Once you're in at the wrong job you are all
    but stuck, it is a very difficult job to move into the "right job".
    
    The reality of this hit home when I met a class mate of mine at
    a site I was working at and he was make almost 10K more than me.
    We had the same education. I don't fault him one bit, I fault a 
    system that continually allows people to wallow in menial position. 
    It allows secretaries to earn MBA's on DEC dollars yet has no systems 
    in place to but them into internal training programs for new MBA's. 
    
    My opinion of why this seems to happen to a greater percentage of
    woman than men is that recruiters are less likely to tell a male to take
    a lower job "just to get in". I feel that employment does not hesitate
    to tell females this line. In my opinion what should be happening
    is that recruiters should be telling them both the same message,
    if you don't have the grades, skills, experience to get into DEC
    at a level that your experience, education and skills should dictate
    than take the skills that you do have and ofer them to a different
    company. There are smaller companies that can and do utilize the
    skills of their workers. DEC is not always the best place to live
    up to your potential especially if you were not in the top percentile
    in your class.

    Gail

    Gail, we share the same story, I think.
    
    I also took a secretarial job to get into DEC almost 5 years ago - and
    that was with 3 bachelor's degrees, a master's degree from Smith, 5
    years of teaching experience, and 4 years experience running small
    businesses (financial management).
    
    I was working for a group of pretty high level staff people.  A couple
    of the women managers really understood how I felt, and my main boss
    said, "Look, just use this as a stepping stone -- give me a year and
    I'll help you get anywhere you want."  And he did.  
    
    But the rest of the men I supported, for the most part, never said
    'what's wrong with this picture?'.  They loved the fact that I could
    make a pc do just about anything they could dream up with spreadsheets
    and databases, and create fancy graphics, but when some openings came
    up in that group in wage class 4, I was considered 'ineligible' by all
    of them.  They thought I had an attitude problem because I wouldn't
    jump up from my work to go make them 1 copy while they waited at my
    desk!
    
    Like Gail said, I just wasn't a very good fit for that job.  I am much
    better at doing my own projects than in supporting other people on
    demand.  
    
    When I applied for a training job in that same building, I was told I
    would have to do a year of phone support in an admin category first 
    - no way!
    
    When I got into my job in ed services, I was hired in at a special
    'lower' job class than any of the other people here because of where I
    was coming from.  I knew it was the right job for me, so I bit the
    bullet and took it.  Within 3 months, they had me working as a project
    leader, supervising much more experienced people.  Within 6 months I
    was doing international travel.   Within 9 months they promoted me. 
    After 2 years, they had managed to double my secretarial starting
    salary.
    
    The promotions and money have been coming along very quickly, and I
    feel like I'm close to where I should be.  I have given work 150% for
    the past three years -- in my heart, I still feel like if I don't do
    twice as much and come in every review as a 1 performer, I will find
    myself answering phones and typing again some day, not a good role
    for me.  
    
    I think the problem is that there are so many gray areas.  When I
    wanted a job in the group I was doing secretarial work for, they
    invoked all the rules - like you have to have an MBA, and experience in
    the field as an analyst.  It didn't matter that I was training people
    who were coming in to those jobs.  And they didn't seem to notice that
    the people (males) they hired didn't have MBAs.  One was *working on* a
    master's degree, I was told -- but I already had one.
    
    It's just easier for many people to *see* men in entry level fast track
    positions.  I think women do have an easier time where a clear set of
    credentials can be earned.  But Digital has so many individual
    contributor jobs that could be filled with college educated and other 
    women who are feeling bored and stuck in clerical jobs.
    
    This issue is still close to my heart.  The prejudice runs very deep.
    
    Holly
    
    

    	I keep hearing that people took jobs that didn't want in order
    to get "into" DEC. That's a mistake on the person's part because
    they get bored, are unhappy, and believe me, they let everyone know
    it one way or another. Then they decide to try for another job,
    but unbeknownst to them, they've developed an "attitude" that no
    one else wants to deal with. The sad part is that they wanted to
    get that foot inside the door and were willing to do anything offered
    to get inside. Most people don't realize that they begin to make
    noise about how unhappy, unappreciated, unused, underutilized and
    misused they are. 
    
    	As to Management Programs. One of the best I ever saw was the
    GE Management Program. If you were accepted, you spent six months
    to a year in each of the following disciplines: QC, Production Control,
    Shipping/Receiving, Engineering, Planning, Finance, Personnel, and
    Manufacturing. Each step gave more experience and responsibility.
    You could also be transferred to sites that needed those skills.
    It took anywhere from 5-7 years to complete but GE never let go
    of anyone who completed the program. By the time you completed it,
    you were a pretty advanced manager trainee and very well paid. This
    is program that would pay huge dividends to company like DEC and
    its diverse departments/skills.
    
    Ken

    re. -.11 (Ken) - I hear and understand what you're saying about people
    who take a job they don't want in order to get into DEC.  Yes,
    sometimes it is a mistake and sometimes they are so bored and unhappy 
    that they make life miserable for everyone around them - a habit that 
    quickly rebounds on them and their career.
    
    HOWEVER, what some of the previous notes are saying, and what I can 
    testify to from my own personal experience, is that WOMEN at least (are 
    there any men who have been through this with DEC?  If so, please speak 
    up.) are too often encouraged, to the point that it looks like all other 
    routes are closed, to take a mismatched position (usually secretarial 
    because there's such a demand for secretaries) and then move into the 
    career track of their choice from there.  
    
    I was one of the fortunate ones who found the move much easier than 
    others have found it.  But the potential difficulties were only apparent 
    to me once it was too late - I'd already signed on as a secretary.
    
    I can't speak for anyone but myself here.  In answer to the unasked
    question, "WHY would you do that?" can you say, "to earn a living"?  I 
    had made the "mistake" of leaving gainful employment to try to start my 
    own business.  In addition to a relevant college degree I had 12 years 
    of directly related business experience with a good record.  But I also 
    had a folder filled with at least 2 1/2 inches of letters of inquiry and 
    application to Digital _alone_.  If you add the equally large folder for 
    non-Digital inquiries and applications, you can see why my three year job 
    search had discouraged me to the point of taking a job, any job, just as 
    long as it would pay the bills.  I'd begun to have serious doubts about 
    my own abilities to perform the tasks in the career of my choice, in 
    spite of having done it successfully for 12 years.  But at least Digital 
    would pay me enough as a secretary to pay the bills.  I'm sure you're 
    wondering, as I was, whether my credentials or attitude or appearance or 
    personality or hair color or (heaven forbid) gender had anything to do 
    with my unsuccessful efforts.  All I know is that once the right door 
    opened, everyone involved seems to be completely satisfied with the 
    results I'm delivering.
    
    Now you tell me why I had to be INSIDE Digital, in a job I really
    didn't want, before the door opened.
    
    (Moderate, non-specifically directed flames)
    Why is it that people who have never experienced any difficulty getting
    a job of their choice have so little compassion for those who don't fit
    the template in some way (i.e., gender, race, religion, age,
    nationality, you-name-the-deviation-from-"norm") and must work twice
    and three times as hard just to get to the starting gate?  And why do
    those "chosen" people immediately blame the people who're trying so hard 
    because of their "attitude"?
    
    Karen                  

    
    re:.12
    hear! hear!
    

    re:Karen
    
    I re-read my reply and I guess it could be taken as a bit inflammatory.
    I didn't mean it to be. 
    
    I understand your frustration. I guess what I'm alluding to is the
    people that I've run into in the three sites I've worked at who
    tend to keep saying that they just want "in" and will do anything
    to get in. The hiring manager brings in that person to do a job
    and lo and behold, he/she has a person who spends most of their
    time trying to get transferred to XYO or to 1st shift or to Engineering
    or something.                                  
    
    I understand the position you were in. There comes a point where
    anything is better than nothing, but the anything has to be something
    worthwhile.
    
    After reading your reply about your experience, one reason that
    you may not have gotten a job is because of your experience. I learned
    a long time ago to never over-apply for a job. If you know what
    a person is looking for in a new hire, don't be 3 or 4 times better
    than the job description. It often will scare an insecure manager.
    
    As my wife keeps telling me. If she did her job as well as the
    previous Ass't manager, she'd be an underacheiver. Instead she has
    to be better than her boss every day, especially now that she's
    covering his job for a month. Why?  Because they are both men and
    in order to prove that she can do the job equally as well, she has
    to do more of it, faster, and better. I guess it never ends....
    
    Ken
    
    
    

    Ken,
    
    I'm over qualified for my job. I turned down a chance at a Dec
    job as a secretary 8+ years ago but took an entry level wage class
    four job as a life line 6 years ago.
    
    We were broke, and I could not find teaching work in our area.
    
    I still have not found a way to move up and out after 6 years and
    multiple courses and all kinds of new skills.
    
    Now I have kids in college so I am a further hostige..
    
    'over forty victim of fate'?
    
    Bonnie