Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Interesting topic... I assume that, since .0 wonders what "people"
    think, this is a FGD topic, so here goes...
    
    An international perspective: when I lived in Europe (England then
    France) I never dated more than one person at once. Finding that many
    people here do, I thought: Why not, if you're honest about it.
    
    It's not something I'd like to think I'll do for a long time, but it
    does have the advantage of not putting all your emotional eggs in one
    basket. 
    
    Some opinions on the questions posed in .0:
    
>    So...  in the sense that I usually do, I wondered... is it fair to date
>    two (+) people at one time? Should the other person know about the
>    other person? What obligations (if any) do you have to tell the people
>    you are seeing?

    Yes. They have the right to know if you are dating others. You have an
    obligation not to hide from them the fact that you're seeing others.
    But this doesn't mean they have to have this information inflcited upon
    them before you go out together for the first time.
    
>    How about male friends?  If I am dating, and a male person asks me out
>    lets say to dinner, just as a friend, should I feel guilty about
>   going/not going?
    
    No reason why you shouldn't go.            
        
>    Also.. how about if I decide to visit his house? I've always
>    wondered where I should park my car..  if he is dating more than one
>    person, might it look strange to neighbors if more than one car is
>    parked in his driveway in a week?  Does anyone care about reputations
>    anymore?
    
    It's up to him to tell you if he wants you to park a couple of blocks
    away and don a disguise to get to the door. Would it be indelicate to
    inquire what you mean by "visit"?
    
    	Andrew.

    Andrew,
    
    Visit can mean anything from dinner and a movie, to Orange Juice
    disapperaing in the morning by more than one person :-)
    
    And yes, I'd rather this be a general open topic, I *hate* thge ones
    that you have to cross reference just to read...
    
    Gale

I think it depends on what you mean by "dating".

I consider myself as "dating" someone when, literally, I have gone on
multiple dates with them.  Three dates with someone and we're "dating".

And I certainly feel under no obligation to to tell someone I have gone
out on three dates with, and am just having fun with, who else I am seeing,
or even *that* I am seeing anyone else.  I *do* feel obliged to be honest
about what I want in the relationship with *that* person (not Relationship,
just relationship - even dating is a relationship.)  So if I am seeing them
just for fun or companionship or a fling or whatever, I tell them.  But I
don't think they have a "right" to know about my personal life.  

I am dating a number of people now.  They all know that I am dating other
people, but not who, and not how, and not how many.

Now i think a Relationship is a different matter.  If you are dating multiple
people, and then start getting serious about one, getting really involved
with him/her (and vice versa) then I believe you have an obligation to be
honest and open about your other relationships with your Main.  I don't think
it is always necessary to stop seeing other people when you get serious about
one, but a lot of people wouldn't have a serious relationship with someone who
was seeing other people; and if the person you are seeing feels that way, then
you have to be honest with them, and decide if it is worth it to you to give
up the "others" for this person.

I, for one, can't understand people who only *ever* date one person at a time.
I mean, I don't object to serial monogamy - but if you go on a singe date with
someone, and that means if you want to see them a second time you aren't allowed
to see anyone else, then essentially the Relationship has started on the
first date.  Which seems a bit premature - the Relationship may only last for
four dates, but you have to be monogamous during those four dates?

I hardly ever ready to commit to a monogamous relationship with someone after
the first date.

D!

    This may be why I've resisted the term "dating" for 15 years.  Until a
    "relationship" (an ugly term which I haven't resisted) begins, what
    does it matter who you spend your time with and what it develops into?
    
    Even after a warm slip into the monogomous tub all you have to be wary
    of is the development, not the time spent.
    
    I have more women friends than men.  When I spend time with them, is it
    dating?  I don't think so, and neither have my SOs.  When my SOs spent
    time with men friends, was that dating?  I didn't think so, and I was
    only wrong once.  (: >,)  Dating is defined by one's current
    circumstances and one's intentions; inasmuch as it's possible to spread
    it around, I can't see that it's wrong.  When ethics rear their ugly
    heads, it's usually called "infidelity" rather than "dating" or
    "playing the field".
    
    Ray

    I've always been a "1 on 1" type of person, and it never worked.  So
    when I met Sean, I decided to "play the field", because he was dating
    too.  I dated *lots* of men in the span of two months, but my heart
    belonged to Sean.  Why is that?  All these guys were handsome,
    intelligent, with great careers ... no different than Sean, except in
    personality.  So while I was "playing the field", I came to the
    realization that I was just sort of "using" these other guys to cover
    my lonely nights and to give Sean a run for his money (which it *did*,
    it was a great challenge to him).  So that wasn't fair.  I ended up
    severing ties to all of them, save Sean.
    
    Now it's a year later, and you know, I wish that I'd have waited longer
    to totally commit myself to Sean.  Because I'm no longer a *challenge*
    to him.  Guess the chase is better than the catch?  And I think about
    how I was *so* quick to go back to my "old ways" of "monogamy" because
    it was something I was taught:  don't be a sleaze and date/sleep with
    or whatever with more than one person.
    
    My opinion of dating:  a bunch of headgames and it's a royal pain in
    the *ss.  Leading to what?  Marriage?  Another bunch of headgames, this
    time -- *controlling* headgames.  The older I get and remain single,
    the more set in my ways I become and the less anxious I am to get
    married!
    
    Tammi
    

    I think I agree with just about everything D! said in .4.  
    
    Unless two people have decided that they are madly in love, and
    want to have a monogamous relationship, I don't see why they shouldn't
    both see other people.  I don't think anyone should assume that
    someone they are dating isn't seeing other people unless it's been
    discussed.  Also, it's possible that at a certain time in someone's
    life, that may not know anyone they'd want to be monogamous with,
    but they may know several people they'd like to date on a more casual
    basis.  I don't see what's wrong with it.  It can be a lot of fun,
    and the only problem is if one of the dates wants to be the only
    one.  Then, some sort of decision has to be made.
    
    I would never visit someone (for any reason) if I had to park my
    car two blocks away!!  How demeaning!  (Unless, it was a married
    man, or someone who was supposed to be in an official, monogamous,
    live-in relationship, but that's a different story.)  But, a man
    who doesn't live with anybody and isn't married?  No, I wouldn't
    park 2 blocks away.  
    
    Re .0, I hope nobody worries about their reputations anymore!  I
    hope we don't have to worry about that phony stuff anymore.
    
    Lorna
    

    When you meet a new person, don't you just assume they are seeing
    others or at least have the right to?
    
    Nothing changes from that first meeting, no matter if you date for the 
    rest of your lives, unless or until there is a specific declaration of 
    fidelity.
    
    If a man doesn't specifically request my fidelity and offer his in
    exchange, (assuming that's where I want things to lead), I just continue
    on dating whomever I please.  If he wants me exclusively, he'll let me 
    know!  Likewise, if I don't declare my fidelity to a guy, I assume, 
    (expect!), he is smart enough to continue dating others.  Just like
    looking for a job - until you get an offer, you're free to go on 
    interviews!  It does infuriate the ones who expect that a woman would,
    or should, automatically become monogamous once sex takes place.  But in
    addition to weeding out the men from the boys, I believe this MO also 
    creates stronger alliances since when an exlusive relationship does
    occur, you know that the man has made an equal emotional investment and 
    is less likely to take the relationship lightly.  Plus, I find men 
    generally have more respect for women who insist on relationship equality
    rather than those who just "stand by their man", however undeserving he 
    is, giving 'till it hurts and loving 'till they die.  And to me, respect 
    is crucial to love.  I couldn't love anyone I didn't respect and cer-
    tainly not anyone who didn't respect me.
    
    I'd park my car wherever it was most convenient when visiting him. 
    If he wants to date several women, it's up to him to juggle his timing
    to keep them separate and content and to suffer the possible consequences
    if he fails.  I would never drop over unannounced, but if invited, I 
    would not accept the insulting suggestion that I hide my presence.  If 
    he asked me to move my car to a more "safe" place, I would.  I'd move it 
    back to my driveway. 
    
    

    RE:  .8
    
    Sandy,
    
    I agree with most everything you said.  But what about the man who
    wants fidelity from you, but LIES about his fidelity to you??  Talk
    about headgames!!  Sometimes we find out too late and it hurts.
    
    And I totally argee with you and Lorna, about visiting and parking at
    his place.   
    
    -Dotti.

>But what about the man who
>    wants fidelity from you, but LIES about his fidelity to you?? 

 What about him? If I am in a relationship with someone, it is because I like
them, respect them, and trust them. I automatically default to believing unless
I have reason to feel otherwise. Trust but verify.

 I suppose you could automatically assume you're being lied to, but to me,
that defeats the purpose of being in a relationship with someone.

 The Doctah

    re: .10
    
    
    No, Doctah, I never assume I'm being lied to, quite the contrary.  
    But there are "people" out there who do lie in relationships.  God only
    knows why.  
    
    I, too, "automatically default to believing"!
    
    -Dotti.

    I'm the type who likes mutually-comfortable ground rules.
    
    Monogamy?  yes - if both want it.
    
    Primary relationship while we can see other people too?  sure - if we
    both want it.
    
    One of several people I date, while he dates others too?  again, only if we
    both want it.
    
    I need definitions, so I know where I stand.  And things change, I'm
    aware of that, and that's fine if we discuss it and are both
    comfortable with it....
    
    -Jody
    

	I guess I'm one of a minority.  I've never been able to successfully
	'date' more than one person at a time.  Ever - not even in high
	school.  I don't have an intellectual reason why it isn't 'ok' when
    	everyone involved has agreed to it, I just can't make it work.
    	But then, I can count the number of dates I've been on in the last 
    	10 years on the fingers of my two hands, so maybe I'm just retarded.

	That doesn't mean that I don't have relationships.  They just haven't
	included what *I* mean when I say dating.  Dating is the explicit
	invitation by a member of one sex to accompany another individual of
	the other sex (for those of us who are hetero) to a specific event, 
	whether that be a movie, dinner, a ball game, a picnic, a bike ride, 
	etc.  It is independent of whether there is an on-going relationship
	between the two individuals.  I'd be willing to try a 'date
    	others approach, particularly early on in getting to know someone,
    	if it was discussed at some point.  A relationship to me implies 
    	at least some level of sexual intimacy between the two individuals.
    	Dating is a mechanism provided to lead to relationships, which in turn
	(ideally) lead to a formal committment (marriage) to a single 
	individual.

	At the relationship level, I have a very explicit rule - *I don't
	share.*  Period.  If you want to share yourself with others besides
	me, I'm not interested.  On the purely physical level, it isn't
	safe - the risk of disease in such behavior is too high.  If
	something fails and I wind up pregnant, I want no possible doubt 
	about the parentage.  On the emotional level, I don't want to be
	intimate with someone who is not focusing on our relationship and
	me.  I return the fidelity and focus to my partner that I expect
	from him.  If you find someone else interesting, let me know and
	we can go to being friends or ex-whatevers (depending on how much
	you hurt me in the process of letting the relationship go), but
	don't expect me to share.

	This stand is the result of some unbelieveably painful experiences
	in my past.  It isn't a stand I always took (immediately after my
	divorce, I was so hungry for validation that I was an attractive
	woman that I went through a very promiscuous period).  Given that
	I now know that *I* will have deep emotional feelings for the men
	that I bed, this is the only stand that will work to protect me
	from emotional damage.

	It ain't easy trying to stake out a position that works in our
	current society.  I've spent long periods of time involuntarily
	celibate in the last 6 years.  But this is what works best for
	me.  (And I've had it validated in the last 2 months when the man
	I was seeing didn't follow through on his end of 'not sharing'.
	He told me about it, and it was "ok" in his eyes because I knew
    	what was going on.  The resulting distress has simply reconfirmed
    	that I know what's best for me.)

	Alison
        

    
    
    	Well, I guess I'm different (No surprise here!!) from most
    	others here. While I may not wish to date more than one at
    	any given time, I in no way expected the other to not date.
    	Once a relationship has formed, then that is the time for
    	other dating to stop, that is unless the two agree to not
    	stop dating (whatever makes your boat float). The key is to
    	talk with the other, gee that's such an easy thing, but all
    	too often never done!!
    
    	 Now, on dating in the 90's, sorry, can't say about that as
    	I gave up dating quite a few years ago. To me, the whole mess
    	got to be more than it was worth.
    
    	G_B

    Miss Manners says dating multiple people is socially acceptable,
    and thinks that parents should explain that to their children
    when they are on the verge of starting to date.
    
    							Ann B.

    Re .16, sometimes, without honesty, you get your own way for a little
    while?  (I'm not saying it's right, but it can be tempting)
    
    Lorna
    

    re:  .16
    
    You said it, Mike.
    
    But it's tough to discover that someone you believed for a long time,
    is a liar....can we get them lower than the gutter?  Cuz that's where they
    belong.
    
    Without honesty there is no relationship.
    
    -Dotti
    

    re .17 >you get your way for a little while
    
    Lorna, most people don't much look to the future, beyond 
    the next few days, or frequently, the next few hours.
    Lying always turns out to be a sacrifice of one's long-term
    interests to their short-term interests. Anybody who lies
    to me loses my friendship. Period. They may cheat me out
    of money, make me look like a chump, but *they* lose the
    friendship of a very special person, one who sticks by
    the people he trusts - me. Maybe they have friends to burn ?
    I doubt it.
    
    Dana     

    
    	Well since I'm getting married in less than two months,
    	I've been out of the "dating scene" for quite a while now.
    
    	Sometimes I miss it but most times I don't.  Too many head
    	games and at some point the relationship would most likely
    	get physical so you have worries there too.
    
    	My fiance is wonderful and very understanding.  I have more
    	male friends than female and he understands and respects that.
    	He doesn't get upset if I mention that a male friend of mine
    	asked if I would like to meet him after work for a couple of
    	drinks or whatever.  I guess I'm very lucky in that sense.
    	Alot of my friends have SO's that would have a fit.
    
    	Sometimes I don't know if I'd want to be single again.  I don't
    	know how I'd handle it.
    
    	JJ
    

    Re .19, Yes, Dana, you are absolutely right, and I agree with you.  I'm
    very bored and lonely this afternoon, (sob-sob), and I was just
    being a wise-ass to amuse myself.  (But, of course, you couldn't know that!)
    (nor could anyone else! but just for the record, I don't think lying
    is very nice)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    What Alison said in .13.
    
    I guess I also have problems imagining enough men that 1)I would like
    enough to date and 2) that would want to date me, to think about 
    more than one at the same time.
    
    I guess I also make a bigger distinction between a friend and a date.
    I have many male friends, but if I went out and did anything with them
    it wouldn't be a date, it would just be going out with a friend.
    
    Lisa

    I don't really call it dating, but the problem I have had over the
    years has been finding someone who has the same varied interests
    that I have. Because of this I have several friends that I call
    upon for different activities. Every time I have gotten into a "dating"
    relationship there are problems regarding what activities we will
    participate in.  I love to dance, I enjoy ballet, folk music, broadway
    shows and musicals, I enjoy going to horse shows and rodeos, I love
    going window shopping (if I had the money I'd do the real thing),
    I enjoy home entertaining and cooking, these are just a few of the
    things that I like to do, but every time I get into a "dating"
    relationship, I find the men I meet are only interested in one or
    two things, I want to do it all. I get bored only going to baseball
    games and horse shows, or just going to the movies and shopping.
    
    I guess that is one reason why I'm still single :-).

    I'm one of those who feels compelled to make it very clear to those I'm
    dating that I'm seeing other people.  I guess this is because I prefer
    to have things above board.  I don't believe that this kind of thing is
    always "understood" by both parties so I want to make it very clear
    from the beginning where I stand.  I feel much more comfortable when
    all the cards are laid out on the table until the rules are understood
    and agreed upon by all parties involved.
    
    I obviously think it's o.k. to date more than one person at a time.
    
    FWIW - 
    
    Nanci

All of us are in the gutter. Some of us are looking at the stars.
	-- Alma, in Tennessee Williams' "Summer and Smoke"

    I think it is fine for either party to date other people, unless at
    some point you both discuss just dating each other.  Until it is
    discussed, I will always continue to see other people.  If I ever saw
    any guy I was just "dating" out with another girl, it wouldn't bother
    me in the least.  At least I wouldn't worry as much if he saw me out
    with another guy.  I usually feel more comfortable dating a guy I know
    is dating other people....less pressure on me.  I usually don't like to
    get serious with anyone until at least 3 months of dating...sometimes
    more.  My problem is they usually want to get serious with me alot
    faster than I want to.  I can really like someone, but alot of times 3
    months down the road I usually find out something that makes me not
    want to date that person anymore.  I think people can hide alot of
    things in the first few months of dating...but it always seems around
    the 3rd month as when they start getting comfortable and showing you
    their real selves.
    
    I would love to meet a guy who just wants to date for a few months and
    not get serious right away.  Unfortunately, I never stay with anyone
    because all the guys I meet always want to get too serious too
    fast....and it never seems to work out when you tell them to slow down. 
    
    I also think alot of guys act like they are falling in love because
    they really just want to get you in bed alot faster...and most of them
    aren't willing to just date for 3 or 4 months before getting serious.
    
    Just my opinion,
    
    Therese
    

    	I think it's perfectly okay, even preferable, to date more than one
    person at a time up until the point where you both decide you want to
    move into the Relationship stage (funny word, that, because I agree
    with Diana that Relationship to me can also mean friendship).  At that
    point, I don't think I could see anyone else or even feel any real
    interest in anyone else -- it's just the way I am.


    	And I agree with Therese -- I refuse to get too serious too
    quickly.  Nowadays I feel the need to really get to know someone first,
    as a friend, and then think about where I might like things to go.
    There aren't any guarantees in life, but this I've found that this
    philosophy has saved me a few heartbreaks already.  On top of that, if
    things don't work out in terms of a more serious committment, you still
    have a good friend.  Assuming, of course, that the other person feels
    the same way.  Seems like a win-win situation.


    	I don't think I have any "rules" about how long I see them as
    friends, however; each friendship progresses differently, so it's
    difficult to make hard and fast rules like that (at least for me).  In
    the end, it comes down to communication and discussing your
    expectations and wants with each other.



    Brian