Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Perhaps because they would find the process of acquiring the knowledge
    to be so boring as to be unbearable.
    
    Everyone is not interested in the same things.  (no kidding, right?)
    
    Many people have admitted they have not read any of the poetry that
    has been entered into this file.  Reading poetry is one of my favorite
    activities in the whole world, so I don't understand why other people
    don't like it, but I accept it.
    
    A male friend recently said to me, "Don't you want to know how and
    why heat comes out of that radiator when you turn the thermostat
    up?"  I replied, "No, I couldn't care less.  I don't care how it
    works and I don't want to have to fix it if it breaks.  I only want
    to have it heat come out when I turn it on."
    
    There are a lot of things I'm interested in in this world, such
    as art, literature, music, nature, animals, history, what makes
    other people tick, the meaning of life :-), antiques, jewelry, clothes,
    sex.  But ,I am not interested in anything that has to do with
    electrical things, mechanical things, mathematical or programming
    things.  My brain just clicks off and screams "no, god, please,
    spare me, not that" inside my head.
    
    I think that everyone chooses to remain ignorant in some ways. 
    I don't care to know how to tune my car, or play football, other
    people don't care to study art history or read poetry or feminist
    literature.  Each to their own.
    
    As far as being ignorant as far as a job goes, I do learn new and
    boring things to keep up on my job.  For example, I just learned
    how to do org charts on Decwrite (whoopee do!)  But, my job really
    hasn't required me to know much technical stuff.  (I do know how
    to crawl under office furniture on my hands & knees to locate a
    drop number for the comm. people, tho.)
    
    Lorna
    

Ignorance is a shield:

  "If I don't know _how_  to do something, no one can reasonably ask me to do
   it."

  "If I know know _why_ something works, no one can reasonably expect me to
   figure out how to do something new but similar."

  "If I don't know about something evil, I won't grieve and I won't feel 
   guilty for not taking action."

  "If I don't know the details of something distasteful, I won't dwell upon
   it or be made uncomfortable."

These are the answers I receive most often.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying in .0.  I, myself, am always
searching for the 'why's' and the 'how's'. I'm told that this a deviant
and ultimately annoying character flaw.  Horse pucky!!

  Ann

    I for one don't find learning boring - about any subject. It's
    probably caused by some defect in my character, but I have this
    strange desire to knoe the how and why of everything I'm involved
    with.  It has always baffled me why a person would proclaim
    ignrance on a topic, and then do nothing to change this. Even if
    it's something I don't care for, I at least attempt to learn something
    about it.
    
    'course, we won't discuss the 2 hours it took me to find the fuel
    pump on my truck because I was to proud to ask, will we?  Who would've
    thought they'd out it next to the tank!
    
    -maureen
    
        

    Re .3, well, you shouldn't be baffled about it anymore.  I just
    explained it in .1.   People are different.   If you just happen
    to naturally find
    learning *anything* to be fun, and others don't, then
    it's not their fault, is it?  You're both just doing what comes
    naturally.  To some it's natural to find learning anything fun,
    and to others it's an effort to force themselves to learn things,
    so they minimize the effort.  I think it's just up to chance, luck
    and coincidence which type of person someone is born.  It may also
    have to do with IQ level?  If learning comes very easily to a person
    they're going to find it more natural to learn, than someone who
    takes a long time to figure things out.
    
    Lorna
    

    99.44% of the time I'd agree with the last few repliers who are
    interested in and curious about the world around them.  I have a
    reputation for driving my family, friends, and associates mad by asking
    "why?" all the time.  (Within the last 24 hours I've collared everyone
    I can on the relationship between VAX DOCUMENT and PostScript. 
    Apparently I'm the first person in this group to ever care, never mind
    inquire.)
    
    BUT, there's that remaining 0.56% of the time when I'm already
    operating in overload, and there's a danger that one additional bit
    of nonessential information will throw me into complete withdrawal from
    the world.  In those times I'm like the customers referenced in the
    base note.  Don't tell me why, don't explain the inner workings, don't
    go on and on for hours about the strategy -- just tell me in simple,
    easy-to-follow steps the information I need to reach my goal.
    
    An attentive listener can readily tell which mode I'm in (the body
    language and verbal clues are unmistakable); if they want to retain my 
    business they'll respond accordingly.
    
    Karen
    
    PS - question for the basenoter:  Have you ever been under extreme
    pressure to accomplish something, but needed one little bit of
    objective information to reach your goal -- then had the person(s)
    you've gone to for that information feel they must go back to day one
    and recount the entire history of the project before they arrive (if
    they ever do) at the fact you requested?

.0> Why are people happy to stay uninformed?

 Because learning takes effort. Some people are unwilling to expend the effort.
Some people are already maxxed out and cannot expend the effort.

 Another reason is that some people are afraid that if they take the effort to
actually learn about a subject, they may find out their preconceived ideas
regarding the subject are wrong. This can be very dangerous to someone who
relies on the accuracy of their world-view for sanity. (If I'm wrong about this,
what else am I wrong about? Maybe I don't know anything... I'd better just
assume that I know enough and not rock the boat.) This particular attitude 
scares me because it is so prevalent.

>    BUT, there's that remaining 0.56% of the time when I'm already
>    operating in overload, and there's a danger that one additional bit
>    of nonessential information will throw me into complete withdrawal from
>    the world.

 Yes. There are times when I don't have time to "figure it out" on my own. I
just want the information I need- NOW!

 The Doctah

    
    I reckon that there are two kinds of aquiring knowledge:-
    
    1) for the pleasure of it (enquiring mind, curious, have the time)
    2) to prevent recurring, unscheduled cockups in one's life
    
    F'rexample, I'm not interested in how my car works and, as it causes
    me no problems, I won't bother to find out in any detail.
    
    However, if it kept breaking down for one particular reason (or
    several), I would learn the "why" of those problem. It still wouldn't
    interest me, but it would be necessary to stop the car preventing
    me from doing things I *am* interested in. If I could fix it then
    I could get on with things with less fear of the random cockup.
    
    With a system, if it is integral to running your business, I'd call
    it foolhardy not to bother to understand the sheer basics of what
    it does. Lack of knowledge in this "need to know" area costs time,
    money and hassle!
                                                            
    'gail
    
    
    

    I enjoy acquiring new knowledge and assimilating it with the old
    knowledge, and watching everything connect.  I thrive on analogies.
    
    I don't think I have ever actually REJECTED learning, but I have
    occasionally postponed it.  I am aware I can only learn so many things
    at once, so I prioritize.  And yes, I have a list of things I'd like to
    learn to do/understand someday.
    
    what follows is minor-league squeamish inducing - formfeed for the
    faint of heart:
    
    
    There are other kinds of "remaining uninformed" also.  I don't watch
    movies I consider "gross" (like "Faces of Death" - a movie which
    actually SHOWS people DYING, and getting KILLED and stuff, many of
    which were filmed "accidentally" - like the death was accidental and
    they just happened to be filming when it occurred) - because I don't
    WANT TO KNOW what it looks like when people die.  I don't want gross
    details ever.  I don't listen to the evening news, or the morning news,
    and seldom read newspapers because it's too depressing - and if
    any news is mondo-vital to everything and everybody, it'll filter in to
    me through other channels (chats, VNS, whatever).  So if I don't want
    to watch/hear something, it's generally because it will scare me, or
    because I'll worry too much about it (particularly useless when I can't
    affect the outcome - like in world news and so forth).
    
    -Jody
    

There are many times I have said "I don't want to know."  That is never
a *global* "I don't want to know", it isn't that I have something *against*
knowing, that I will avoid the knowledge; it is that at that time and at
the place and from that person and about that topic, I don't want to
learn.

For example, if time is short, I don't want to know why, just how.  (Example,
I call my father, the Math teacher, the night before a test to say "How do
I integrate by parts?"  He wants to explain why, given background in calculus,
the answer is obviously derivable.  I like math, I like calculus, and at
some other time, I would love to discuss derivations with my father.  But
at the particular time, I know exactly what type of questions will appear on
the test, and I have 4 hours to learn how to do them.  Period.)

For example, if I am in a relaxed, mellow, non-thinking, non-stressed
mode, drinking wine and watching a brainless TV show, I don't want to think.
(Example, my SO wants to explain Transaction Engines to me so that he can
ask my advice on how to implement one...I *want* to help him on his project,
transaction machines *sound* interest, and even useful in my own work, but
I want to wait till my brain is on full-speed.  He does this to me *all*
the time, just as I am drifting off to sleep...once I wake my brain up
fully it can take hours to get back to sleep.)

For example, my *last* SO knew whole bunches but was a terrible teacher.
We always ended up fighting whenever he tried to explain something to me.
So from him, "I didn't want to know".

It's really a matter of priorities.  I really do want to know everything about
everything.  But some things are much more important to me, and given finite
time and finite mental resources, I'd rather devote them to learning something
else, or completing some other task, then the one that someone is insisting
I ought to learn about *right* *then*.

So there are *lots* of times I say "I don't know and don't want to" (usually
with an implied "Leave me alone" or "just give me the info I asked for!")

D!

    We may be an enlightened bunch, but let's not be supercilious.
    Many of the folks calling and needing assistance *do* know the
    basics: how to log in and perform rudimentary commands.  Those *are*
    the basics for these people and they have little need to know the 
    more complex operations you specialize in: that's why Digital needs you.
    
    On the more broad topic: like some of the other respondees I run at 98%
    of capacity, day in and day out.  If I were to spend the other 2%
    pondering how the toilet works, or the exact nature of bills before
    congress I might be smarter, but I'd also be crazy and probably a
    little boring.                        

    
    Well, I tend to agree with the 'overload' theory.  I learn what
    I have to, when I have to....else, like Lorna I only think about
    those things which I enjoy.  If work demands I learn all there is
    to know about some specific topic, I do it, not enthusiastically 
    but do it.  So, there go some 1000's of brain cells, with the few
    left over, why bother learning how the tv really works?  
    
    Unfortunately in this day and age, one is expected/required to know
    an awful lot about many things.  I couldn't survive if I didn't have
    at least some knowledge of how electricity works, plumbing is done,
    carpentry is done, small engine repair, car repair, etc etc...as
    I own a house, car, have a yard, and all that stuff needs care,
    so I must know a certain level of detail .   The nuts and bolts? forget
    it....let the guru's learn it...not me.  I like being able to
    turn off my brain and just veg. 
    
    deb
    

>    people don't care to study art history or read poetry or feminist
>    literature.  Each to their own.

    Lorna, I understand your idea of "to each their own" but I do not agree
    that the study of the arts, literature or music (etc.) will ever
    be in the category of "need to know" issues. 
    
    Yes, to each their own on how you want to expand your horizons but
    I'm talking basics here! My closest friend in the whole world does
    not know how to cook, and he does not care to learn. How basic a
    skill can there be?! I can not understand why someone would reject
    learning such a basic skill.
    
    What we consider to be basic is relative. For the life of him
    he can't understand why I have trouble remembering certain DCL commands
    (he's an princ. software engineer). But I think few would disagree
    that basic knowledge would include job knowledge and our surroundings as
    well as other events that effect us in our daily life, the car not
    working etc. 
    
    I can't believe how many people know very little about Digital, the 
    computer industry in general, the field that they work in in
    particular. How can one work in such a vacuum? How can one live in such 
    a vacuum, knowing little or nothing about events that effect them. 
    
    My base question was why proudly profess to being ignorant about such 
    basics? I know nothing about the arts. Little about literature. But 
    these things are not a part of my everyday life. 
    
    My answer to why people do this. Fear. Fear of the unknown. Their
    afraid to listen to the explanation for fear that they appear stupid
    if they fail to understand or learn the information. I join the
    noters before me a profess a love for knowledge. It's power. you
    know. 
    
    Gail

    Re .14, Gail, as you said, everyone has their own idea of what
    constitutes a basic need.  
    
    If people are surviving, if they are 30, 35, 40 yrs. old, and they
    have survived this long, and continue to survive on a daily basis
    then they must know the basics needed to survive in their surroundings
    or they wouldn't still be here - surviving.  If their circumstances
    change, if they lost their jobs and became street people, for example,
    they would then need to learn some new skills in order to keep
    surviving.  
    
    In this day and age, with fast foods, frozen foods, and microwaves,
    I don't think knowing how to cook is really a basic need.   Your
    friend hasn't starved to death yet, afterall.
    
    To me a life without art, literature and music, would *indeed* be
    a vacuum.  
    
    What are basic needs?  It depends what you're doing.  You may know
    a lot about the computer industry, but if you were suddenly
    transplanted to the Nebraska plains in the 1880's as a homesteader
    it wouldn't help you much.  Can you build a sod hut?
    
    We need other people and one of the reasons we need other people
    is that we all don't have the same talents and skills.  I can't
    repair a watch or my car, but I have always been able to find other
    people who will.
    
    Lorna
     

>Why choose ignorance?

	Because I prefer to program in BLISS?

    
    re:.14
    music, art, literature *are* basic.
    

    re .17
    
    subversive!

    I love to learn things.  However, I disagree that everyone has to love
    to learn things.  For instance, there are many subjects I DON'T care to
    learn about.  (Like Calculus -- which I'm taking because I *have* to.)
    
    Why can't people say "you are different from me and that's interesting" 
    instead of "you are different from me and I think there's something
    missing in your life"?!  Some of the replies in here have a tone of
    mild condescension or disrespect for the workings of another person's
    mind...just because you don't understand doesn't mean you're right.
    
    What about the character Sherlock Holmes?  He was brilliant but 
    deliberately kept himself ignorant of basic things (politics,
    mathematics, etc.) in order to keep his mind uncluttered.  Worked for
    him!!
    
    If it's your job, you learn it.  The degree to which you enjoy learning
    it is up to you.   Some people like process (LEARNING ITSELF), others
    like content (LEARNING SPECIFIC THINGS).  Some lucky people like both. 
    Why does different have to be wrong??
    
    I know it's strange, but some people who use our computers could care
    less about computers.  They may like to buy stocks or design buildings
    or keep legal records on file.  If their job is to know about
    computers, they should know about computers; but if their job is to
    know about a completely different subject, why slam them for not
    knowing about computers?  Are *we* all fascinated by torts and civil
    engineering specifications and the p-complement in blood?
    
    Life now is too complicated to know everything.  I say "yay" to the
    people who make a decision about what is a priority in their life. 
    (With the caveat that I say "hmm" to the people who *are* afraid to
    learn things because it means they will have to do their job or because
    they don't believe they can. I do agree that such people exist.)
    
    Pam

    There was a time that I thought I could learn everything.  Then as I
    continued my education I realized how foolish that was.
    
    There was a time, when I was getting my PhD, that I thought I could
    learn everything I encountered in my daily work.  I couldn't understand
    why some folks did not do likewise.
    
    Now I am content to learn most of what it takes to do my job and learn
    a number of things outside my job.  Working 60-80 or so hours a week just
    is not reasonable, I spend the odd extra 20-40 now learning other
    things about the hows and whys of the world perhaps giving some of the 
    acquired knowledge to others from time-to-time.
    
    I think it's a point of maturity to decide where you're going to spend
    your time and efforts learning the what's, why's, and how's of the world.
    
    ed

    I think everyone likes to learn. The problem is, some people 
    haven't found a *subject* that interests them. It depends
    on both the subject and the teacher. I like learning about 
    computers. I detest English classes (but I love reading and 
    writing.) I loved macro-economics, loathed micro-. I feel sorry
    for people who don't (think they) want to learn anything.
    
    Dana
    

    I don't think liking to learn has anything to do with IQ, but with
    the values that you were brought up with.  I was raised very poor
    (and for those of you who care, didn't graduate college) and was
    taught to value education above all else - excepting honesty and
    empathy.  It was my ticket out of the ghetto.
    
    Somewhere along the line, I learned to value all opportunities
    to learn, - inlcuding the arts, politics, history, sociology, etc.
    Each learning experience, even if it was unwelcome, has been useful
    in some way. Sometimes you may have to postpone the learning, but
    to avoid it entirely in unthinkable to me.
    
    This isn't going to go over real well, but...
    I see deliberately avoiding learning as a sign of laziness.  The
    folks who claim they don't need to learn anything beyond what they
    need are the same one's who come expecting answers from me when,
    with a little effort, they could figure it out for themselves. 
    But hey, asking somebody else is easier, right?  We are raising
    an entire country with this attitude - no desire to learn anything
    that's not fun.  Where would we be if our parents did the same
    thing?
 
				-maureen
    
   

    I try to be an expert in one area and "know where to find the
    information" in many others...that is, knowing who/where are the experts.
    I take the same approach in the notes microcosm.  I read certain topics
    in their entirety, but many others are skipped over as I know they'll
    be there should I need the information at a later time.  That's why we
    have search and dir/title= commands. :^)
     
    Knowledge turns over so quickly, it's pretty defeating to try to keep
    up in all areas simultaneously.  Information distillation and
    retrieval is a booming industry.
    
    my .02,
    Marge

    Art is the expression of man. We can learn lots about ourselves
    from the study of it and those who create it.
    
    Kate
    

    I think I figured out why this topic is so near and dear to my heart.
    
    Given that we who are female are at somewhat of a disadvatage in
    life, can we afford the luxury of remaining ignorant?  Those of
    us who are content to know only what we need to get by and what
    is pleasant to learn, are at the mercy of the rest of the world.
    We become dependent on the system or our husbands/SO's and content
    with our lot in life. Content and comfortable, perhaps, but certainly 
    with little power over our own lives.
    
    I used to teach at a literacy center with mostly foreign students.
    We had lots of older women who never had the time (or permission
    from their husbands) to learn English.  Most could not write in
    their native langauges or some of the things we take for granted-
    like the ability to drive or cash a check.  Some of these woemn
    were'nt too bright, but they didn't give up trying to learn. They
    also couldn't understand why we didn't value the opportunity to
    learn as much as they did. Ignorance was not something these people
    were proud of.
    
    -maureen
    
    

    Re .25, sooner or later, everybody is at the mercy of someone else.
     When you get into an airplane you are at the mercy of the pilot,
    and the mechanics who checked out the plane.  If you need an operation
    you are at the mercy of the surgeon.  We are all at the mercy of
    our political leaders' having enough sense to keep us out of a nuclear
    war.  Nobody can be in control all the time, no matter how much
    they learn.
    
    I don't advocate people happily bragging about being illiterate,
    I was only trying to point out that people have different interests,
    and not everyone enjoys the same things.
    
    I admit that I have always been irritated when I meet people who
    seem to proudly proclaim that they don't like to read.  Not liking
    to read is incomprehensible to me, but a lot of people probably
    find it strange I didn't watch the superbowl.
    
    Lorna
    

    interesting topic....
    
    This kind of reminds me of my mom.  For the first time in her 53
    year life she has to learn a computer....the anxiety attacks,
    the sleepless nights she's had over this.  To mom, the unknown
    is scary not thrilling and exciting.  
    
    I find this alot in my group.  Some of the older people don't
    want to leave their *comfort zone*.  They just want to do what
    they have to until they retire.  Nothing should change, no one
    should get vaxmates (what's wrong with a VT100?). Anything
    new is considered a curse....
    
    There's a funny saying about knowledge, don't know who said it
    though:
    
    	I've read so many bad things about eating, drinking, smoking, 
        and sex, I've decided to give up reading!

    In general, I agree with Joe in .4 -- it's simply not possible to
    learn everything there is to know in this day and age.  One can
    either scratch the surface of as many things as seem necessary, or
    one can make some hard choices about things one will look up when
    necessary, or rely on experts for, or be at a loss about.  One can
    call a repairman to fix one's car, for example -- it might save
    money and show a good mechanical mind to do one's own tuneups and
    brake jobs, but why should one learn about internal combustion
    engines if what interests her is feminist poetry?  
    
    And ignorance is not necessarily synonymous with illiteracy,
    either.  One can know a great deal about cooking, child-rearing,
    carpentry, and any of hundreds of other skills without reading a
    word. 
    
    --bonnie

    0. asked why some folks now so little about the way their systems
    operate.  One reason I can give from personal experience:  some
    of us can't get permission to attend training.  "Why do you need
    to know that?  Call the hot-line, that's what it's for."  Training
    costs money.  It also broadens your horizons, makes you more
    valuable.  What if you get so valuable you look to another career field?
    Besides, while you're at a course, who'll do your work?
    

    re -1
    
    You'll be glad to know that not all groups work like this! One of
    the reason that I have this Hotline job was because the manage that
    I'd previously worked for appreciated my technical ability. I wanted
    more technical training, the group said go for it, because I was
    obviously more suited for it. I ending up taking VAX/VMS Utilities
    and Commands as a Department Coordinator. I must admit I was the
    only admin person in my class, but it was what I wanted for career
    growth and I was lucky to get the support. 

    BTW, most Hotlines do not exist to cater to the educational needs
    of its customers. We could all work more efficiently with some basic
    knowledge of the system we work on. I think Digital falls short
    on this type of training. An initial investment in the employee could
    go a long way for productivity.
    
    Gail
    

    Re .30, why do most hotlines exist then?
    
    Lorna
    

    Here in Colorado, there are CBI courses available to anyone who has the
    desire to take them.  doesn't cost the cost center a penny, they can be
    done inbetween calls, at lunch time in the evening.  I am sure if we
    have the courses on a couple of our systems, other buildings must too. 
    I don't buy the excuse " they won't let me " .  If the desire is there,
    there is always a way.  I started out as an assembler 1, wage class 1,
    absolutely NO computer education nor had I ever used one.  I took self
    paced classes on my own, CBI's, and worked my way to Software
    specialist II.  I firmly believe, if you want it, go get it. 
    
    vivian

>        Re .30, why do most hotlines exist then?

    Fair question Lorna. Customer Assistance reps have privileged accounts.
    We can help you with making changes in your account, such as increasing
    disk quota or logging out you port if its hung up. We answer how
    to questions on a variety of products, A1 being the largest product
    we support. There are many administrative task users can't do
    themselves, that is what I am trained for. 
    
    In my original posting I was not complaining that people call up
    and ask questions, it keeps me in business. But when they call 
    and they don't know what a node is, then I think Digital has a problem!
    
    But my overall complaint extended far beyond the reaches of system
    knowledge. I realized that this apathy for knowledge extended into
    many different parts of peoples lives and that is where the debate
    began. 
    
    Gail