Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    in addition to this thought provoking topic, see also:
    
    Womannotes-V1
    146 - Do you ever want children?
    156 - Do you LIKE being around children?
    784 - Choosing not to have children
    
    Human_relations
    360 - Opting for no children
    
    -Jody
    

I don't think I'll be having chilren (but I never thought I'd marry either...).
    
>    Are there any men or woman out there who've made the decision not to
>    have children?  

Yeah; based on current inputs. No one's given me much grief about this; no one
has called me selfish to my face (I wouldn't be surprised if they thought it
though). Perhaps being an only child an innurred [sp?] me to that criticism. I
don't think people are generally 'so horrible'. Talk shows (like notesfiles)
exist to get the juices flowing.

>And why do so
>    many people get down on those who've decided not to have children? 

Maybe they see their way of life threatened or invalidated. Or maybe they're
just sure they're right, and think that's the way to convince others.

>    Shouldn't we be happy that they are happy with their decision 

Absolutely.
	Mez

    I suspect there are many more women out there who at heart wish they
    had never had children than will ever come forward and admit it.  I'll
    never forget the response I received from the women I worked with at
    the time of my first pregnancy.  Elated, because this was a planned and
    a greatly desired pregnancy, I bubbled over with enthusiasm when I
    informed my co-workers (all female and mothers of grown children) about 
    my impending motherhood.  To a woman their response to me was, "If you 
    only knew what we know now, if you only knew what you were getting
    yourself into, you'd never do this."  I considered the timing of their
    warning entirely ludicrous.  Why hadn't they -- or anyone -- warned me
    BEFORE I was pregnant?  Why wait until after?
    
    Well, I had two children, and I love them more than life itself and am
    proud of the type of people they're growing into.  Although I can't say
    they've never caused me a moment's concern, they certainly haven't been
    any problem in the sense of so many of today's young people.  They're
    fine, loving, sensitive, upstanding, law abiding, productive citizens.
    
    But, if I had it all to do over again, knowing what I know now, no, I
    wouldn't have children.  Not because children are bad, but because _I_
    was not cut out to be a mother.  I don't feel like I did them any
    favors, being the type of mother I was, during their early years.  It 
    was miserable for me, probably almost as miserable for them, and boy, 
    am I glad the worst part is over.
    
    My suggestions to anyone considering motherhood: (1) read "My Mother,
    Myself" by ?? (the name escapes me right now, but I'll look it up and
    post it tomorrow), and BELIEVE it; and (2) borrow someone else's
    toddlers and teenagers for a week (both age groups, two different
    weeks - you'll never survive both at once).  Don't try to convince
    yourself that the frustrations you suffer for those weeks are due to
    their being "someone else's kids."  Multiply those frustrations by 52
    and imagine feeling like that every day of the year (no vacations) for
    the next 20 or so years.  If that sounds like fun, go for it!
    
    And having said all that, perhaps the most important thing I can say,
    is that today I wouldn't trade my children and the memories we have for
    anything -- I just wish there were a more effective way to get from
    there to here.
    
    Karen
    
    

    Regarding " you're selfish if you don't have children"
    
    What is so selfish about not wanting to have children? And more
    important, what are the non-selfish, altruistic reasons for
    having children? Every reason I can think of sounds selfish to
    me. By selfish I mean - for *my* pleasure, happiness, .....
    Nothing bad about that, its *my* life.
    
    Ok. I've thought of one non-selfish reason. I'll have children
    so that my mother can experience "grandmotherhood". Don't know
    if she wants to though :-)
    
    Basically, I think its a personal decision and I have the right 
    to choose whether I want kids or not
    
    Manisha
    ps. I do plan to have one someday.

I applaud those people who have thought out this issue for themselves and 
made a decision they are comfortable with.  I think that the women and men
who have decided that they would prefer not to have children are making
a wise choice.  I am sorry for both the kids and the adults when people
have children because they are forced into it.

For me, I have *always* wanted children.  When I realized I was a lesbian
and thought that I would have to raise the kids alone then I took a year
or two and really thought about it.  I realized that I would manage no matter 
if I was single or not, no matter how difficult it would be for me to even
GET a child (pregnant, adoption, whatever).

My son is almost 2 now, and yes, he has started what some people call the
"terrible twos".  He is so fun and wonderful and sweet, though, I love him
to pieces and do not regret my decision one iota.  I have step-parented
3 teenage boys, helped with 2 preteens (also boys), and lived with both 
a male and female teenager and have enjoyed it.  For me, parenting is good. 
For others, it is not so good.  I am glad that each of us has a choice. 

          Carol

I don't know if I'll always feel like this, but for the moment
I've decided I don't want to have children.

(When people say to me "But aren't you sad you won't have children"
when I tell them I'm a lesbian, I do go through the "lots of lesbians
have children" spiel, before going through the following "but I
don't *want* to" spiel.)

But, some of my reasons are:
	- there are way too many people in the world as it is
	- I'd feel unsure about bringing new beings into such an
	  imperfect, self-destructive world [this one has lessened
	  over time]
	- I don't know that I'd be a particularly good mother 
	  (I don't think I'd be able to let them out of the house, being
	  worried they'd get hurt :-))
	- I do know it takes an awful lot of one's life, and I don't
	  want to give up my (relative) freedom, my career, my travel
	- I feel like I got a good taste of alot of the mother-tasks
	  being the oldest daughter in a large family
	- The logistics of conceiving would be a hassle :-)
	- I'd be afraid of being trapped into housewife-ship like my mother.

So, to me it makes much more sense for all those people who *do* want
children to have them then for people to do so unthinking, or because
that's what one does, or because one's parents want grandchildren.  I
like to see people make a concious, well-thought out choice to have children
or not to.

	MKV

Of Mary's reasons not to want children, these three...

>	- there are way too many people in the world as it is
>	- I'd feel unsure about bringing new beings into such an
>	  imperfect, self-destructive world [this one has lessened
>	  over time]
>	- The logistics of conceiving would be a hassle :-)

are most of the reasons why if I decide to raise children, I will probably
adopt.  (Though I expect my complaints about the logistics are different
than hers.  :-)

D!

    There was also a discussion on this topic in TERZA::PARENTING
    
    

    The lists for and against having children are long and exhausting. The
    bottom line is for each of us to decide if we want children. The
    sacrifices are endless and the rewards are mind boggling to be able to
    rear children, molding them, into happy adults. Being an unwanted child,
    I was abused and neglected. For heaven sake do not have children for
    any other reasons other than your own desire to raise them. 
    
    rick

    re: .0
    
    The answers to most of your are obvious to me.  People who decide
    not to have children aren't selfish and aren't bad people.  The
    people who have children to fulfill their own psychic inadequacies
    -- My daughter will be popular since I wasn't, my son is going to
    be a star football player -- are the selfish ones.
    
    It sounds to me like the Donahue audience was reacting mostly from
    their own insecurity and ambivalence about their own children. 
    That's the kind of defensive hostility people come out with when
    you've just said something they're thinking but can't bear to
    admit.  Real honesty is not a valued commodity in this society. 
    
    I chose to have children.  I love them, I enjoy them, I love being
    with them, and if I could live my life over, I wouldn't change
    them.  I'm comfortable with the life I have chosen, and I no
    longer feel a need to defend myself for choosing a lifestyle
    that's conventional rather than experimental or liberated.  But
    neither do I feel any need to campaign for others to have
    children.  If that's what you want, great, I think you're in for a
    great experience.  If children are not something you want out of
    life, either at this time or ever, great, I think you're in for a
    great experience.
    
    --bonnie

    re .10 - Amen!
    
    In my opinion, the idea of "selfishness" has nothing to do with either
    having children or not having children ideally.  My take is - how do
    you envision your life going?  Do you see children in it?  This is a
    very personal decision based entirely on what you want in your life. 
    For me I could never imagine a life without my own children.  Not
    adapted, but my own.  Of course I was never faced with not being able
    to conceive so I didn't have to face that like many people I know. 
    But, I guess I just assumed that eventually I would have children.  And
    I did, I have four.  Yes, it's tough sometimes.  I wonder why I did
    this sometimes.  But I would never change it for a million bucks, I
    love them dearly, I cannot imagine my life without them.
    
    By the way read adopted, not adapted.
    

    Calling someone selfish because they have carefully thought out
    the pros and cons of an important lifetime decision, is unfair and
    ignorant.
    
    I chose not to have children and have never regretted my decision.
    I know many people who have children and never should have.  These
    kids are ignored, pushed aside and treated like burdens.  These
    people are what I call selfish, not someone who has chosen not to
    have children.
    
    My attitude is that this is an extremely personal decision based
    on individual lifestyles and plans.  If you have children, then
    bring them up the best possible way you can.  If you don't have
    children and don't want them, that's your personal choice.
    
    Everyone is different and based on those differences decisions are
    made.
    
    Nancy

    Well, I have three children.. the first was because I was STUPID enough
    not to be on the pill correctly (nobody told me you didn't start them
    on your wedding day!!)...  I had the second one, because I didn't want
    to have an only child... I had the third one to try to save a dying
    marriage (mistake!)...

    All three of my girls are extremely special to me...  I love having
    them around - I don't know what "being alone" or "living alone" is
    like, and a lot of times I have a very hard time relating to people who
    need "alone" time, because I have never been without kids, having my
    first one at 18 years old...

    If I had to do it all over again, I would not have kids...  period..
    there are a lot of responsibility, a lot of heartache, and a lot of
    worry, and take a LOT patience, and a lot of your time. They also cost
    a lot of money to raise. 

    However, even though I say I will never do it again, if I ever decide
    to remarry, and my new husband wanted kids, I'd do it in a heartbeat!
    Why? because kids when there are two parents actively parenting are
    a world of joy, a world of love, and very much worth any heartache and
    grief they can cause you. 

    But, if I married someone who never wanted kids of his own through our
    marriage, that would be perfectly okay with me too...

    I know several people who just don't like kids -- and after being
    around them, I can understand why their lifestyle just doesn't fit
    kids...  however, I've also seen some be DARN good with my girls, even
    though they in the next sentence say "I hate kids" and others who
    can't even relate to them at all, and those are the ones that should
    never have kids!!
    
    BTW: I saw the Donahue show, and I agree that all on that show should
    not have kids with the value systems they had!

	 I'm confused.  Why is it selfish to not want children?  I've
	 never had any urges to have children.  My lifestyle would not
	 accomodate it.....I'm just a very "loner" person, I HAVE to
	 have time to myself, to be me.  And if I had children, I
	 would hate myself constantly for not having the time I need
	 for me.

	 I can see that I could be considered selfish if I DID have
	 kids, but aren't I being selfless by not bringing a child
	 into a family where I would resent them?
	 

	 I truly love my nieces dearly.  They are the most beautiful
	 children in the world!  But......I can give them back when I
	 need to be me.

	 kath

    The decision not to have children is no more "selfish" than *any*
    other decision one makes about one's life. Obviously, anything
    you choose to do to your own advantage is a "selfish" decision,
    isn't it?
    
    How many people really *have* children for unselfish reasons.
    Perpetuate the race?  Hogwash!  We are in no danger to dying out
    as a race. Many people have children for the very selfish reason
    of wanting to perpetuate the family name.
    
    I like children, and when I was younger, I wanted to have them.
    The older I got, the less inclined I was to have them. My major
    reasons for not wanting children have boiled down to two of the
    reasons that Mary gave and D! agreed with:
    
    (1) There are too many damn people on the planet as it is.
    (2) The uncertainty of the quality of life.
    
    (I don't want to get into an argument about whether the second is
    a healthy attitude to have -- this argument has already been bandied
    about in this file.)
    
    There's also a third:
    
    (3) I feel that we have a duty to the unwanted children that already
    exist. For this reason, if I should ever decide that I *do* want
    children, I'd be more inclined to want to adopt.
    
    --- jerry

    A lot of people still buy the equation 'selfish' = 'bad'.
    
    For discussion, see "The Virtue of Selfishness" by Ayn Rand.

    I'm male. I've never wanted children and have so far avoided it. Some
    plusses for not having them :
    
    o Freedom, for both of you. Both of us can work and play from the early
      hours of the day to late at night, staying out as long as one wishes, in 
      effect treat the home like a hotel without having any worries.
    
    o Ability to change jobs/locations, countries even, without having to be
      concerned about what's good to the kids.
    
    o If, god forbid, we ever separated (and no relationship is necessarily
      forever), we could go our own sweet way without having to worry about
      the children or make decisions of staying together because of them.
    
    So, to sum up, it freedom, freedom and freedom.
    
    Some minuses -
    
    o It upsets your parents an awful lot. The family pressure can be quite
      intense. If you are lucky enough, as we are, to have siblings, who can
      do the biz. and provide the grandchildren then the issue gets
      somewhat mitigated, otherwise you would have that pressure until you
      or the parents die, whichever is earlier.
    
    o Most of your friends seem to end up having children, whether when
      they are 20-something or 30-something. It has a drastic effect when
      as a couple you turn out, over a period of time of, say 15 years,
      to be and likely to be the odd ones out.
    
    o Some people feel sorry for you making the assumption that one or both
      of you is sterile ( I only wish it were true ! ). You will have to
      handle the subtle condescention.
    
    FWIW,
    Shantanu
                         

    I'm good but I'm not omniscient....
    
    Overlooked pointer:
    
    PARENTING notesfile
    1484 - To Parent Or Not - The Big D
    
    -Jody
    

>        I know many people who have children and never should have.  These
>    kids are ignored, pushed aside and treated like burdens.  These
>    people are what I call selfish, not someone who has chosen not to
>    have children.

    And just for a twist on these ideas, I know a set of parents who
    should never have had children, treated them as a burden and made that
    point very clear to the children. But their children were not a
    mistake, they were adopted. And the mother regularly "reminded"
    the children that she didn't have to keep them and would send them
    back, because she they were a burden.  Hard to believe people would
    go through the effort to adopt babies just to make their life
    miserable. I think that says a lot about succumbing to peer pressure
    to have children, for the sake of having them, not for the sake
    of wanting them.
    
    Gail  

>    And just for a twist on these ideas, I know a set of parents who
>    should never have had children, treated them as a burden and made that
>    point very clear to the children. 

As Paul Simon says "You are the burden, of my generation, I sure do love you,
but let's get that straight."

What a sad way to raise children.

To all those who say people who don't have children are selfish: do you really
want *your* children to grow up in a society filled with unwanted children
people had because they "should".  I think those people who don't *want*
children do as much benefit to society as to themselves by not having them.

D!

	I'm having a hard enough time trying to decide when to get a
	puppy, much less whether I want to handle the responsibility 
	of children.

	But the more I think about it, the more I prefer dogs.

	Carla
	

    I guess this notesfile is a bit slanted in its viewpoint!! But we
    already knew that ;-).

    The feed back has been great - just to know there are other people out
    there that don't want kids or feel the same way we do - we just don't
    know if we want kids.  I guess I needed a sanity check too - that it's
    ok not to have kids and we are not necessarily being selfish horrible
    human beings as some people would like us to believe.

    We don't want them for all the logical reasons mentioned earlier:
    - Overpopulation, the state of this world etc.  
    
    As well as other reasons:
    - The thought of being pregnant gives me morning sickness ;-).
    - We love our life the way it is.

    We are so happy with our life.  We like our relationship and our life
    the way it is.  We travel, try new restaurants, go to plays, movies,
    take classes, we exercise every morning together, read books, go out to
    breakfast before work occaisionally, and I tend to work a lot.  About
    the only responsibility we have besides ourselves is our cats - and
    they are easy!

    As the saying goes "if its not broke don't fix it".  and obviously life
    changes after children.  Would we still be happy with our life?
    I guess we would never know.  And that's what scares me.  90% of the
    time I would say I don't want kids - it's that 10% that bothers me.
    But I just cannot figure out if that 10% is my mom wanting to be a
    gradmother, my mother-in-law wanting a granddaughter (she had all
    sons), doing what I'm "expected" to do - or is it just me wanting to be
    a mom!  

    Thanks for sharing - parents and non-parents alike.

    More feed back would be appreciated.

    Suzanne
                                                                   
    

>              <<< Note 947.21 by BSS::BLAZEK "prayers for rain" >>>
>
>
>	I'm having a hard enough time trying to decide when to get a
>	puppy, much less whether I want to handle the responsibility 
>	of children.

	 I'll vouch for that!  ;-)

	 kath

    slanted?  I'd rather call it, individuals strongly in touch with their
    own needs/desires.  Insofar as I've thought about it, I know I'm not
    ready for the responsibility yet, and I have no desire to change my
    life in that fashion. 
    
    Even more importantly, Suzanne, were these two phrases you included-
    
    > ok not to have kids and we are not necessarily being selfish horrible
    > human beings as some people would like us to believe.
    
      and...
    
    > - We love our life the way it is.
    
    Correctamundo.  As Dick Feynman would have said, "What do you care what
    other people think?"  Make yourself happy first, no one else will.  Do
    what's right for yourselves...than, when you are strong and happy with
    your lives, brighten the world around you with your joy as you see fit.
    
    DougO

    Having children is a life-time commitment that never really stops,
    even when the kids are grown and gone. The demands on your
    freedom, time, finances, and -- not the least -- emotions are
    great, and at times they are overwhelming. 

    We have two daughters, age 21 and 24, and a son who died at age 5.
    For the two of us, having and raising children was definitely the
    right decision, and one neither of us has ever regretted. Despite
    the heartaches, it has enriched our lives and rewarded us in ways
    that are far beyond anything I had imagined.

    But children are not for everybody. Some people and couples just
    are not suited for it. We all know unhappy families, and many of
    them would be better off without children. It has little to do
    with "selfishness." Some people even have children for "selfish"
    reasons.

    Our daughters both say they don't want children. That's their
    choice, and fine with me. Personally, I think that deciding to
    have children is a greater and more far reaching commitment than
    deciding to get married. You can always terminate a marriage, but
    the kids will still be around.

    Comic relief rathole alert: My son-in-law's sister who is divorced
    and has two children, married a divorced man who also has two
    children. They recently produced one of their own. They now have
    two four-year olds, two five-year olds, and a new baby. My
    son-in-law says that whenever he thinks the two of them may want
    children, they baby sit for his sister for a few hours, and soon
    get out of the notion.

    Bruce

    I've thought for a long time that having children should just be
    considered a personal choice, instead of something that everyone
    is expected to do.  For me having one child has been a good choice.
     My daughter, now almost 16 yrs. old, has brought me a lot of
    happiness, so far, and I have had the thought before that if I hadn't
    had her I would have deprived myself of my own best friend.  If
    I had it to do over again, I would still have her and I wouldn't
    want to change one thing about her.  I am glad, though, that my
    ex and I limited it to one.  My ex-mother-in-law used to accuse
    me of being selfish because I didn't want more children.  But, after
    she was born, we realized that if we had any more kids, our lifestyle
    would be drastically affected, and we might resent it.  It was easy
    to bring one well-behaved little girl with us to  movies, concerts
    and restaurants, and if we didn't want to bring her, one of the
    two grandmothers was always ready to watch her.  If we had had two
    kids it would have been harder to find a babysitter, and would have
    been more expensive and we wouldn't have been able to afford to
    have any fun on the weekends.  Having one child has always seemed
    like the best of both worlds to me.  I have had the chance to
    experience parenthood without being overburdened by it.  I always
    knew I would never want more than two kids, and one C-section and
    spiraling inflation quickly helped me decide to settle for one.
     But, yes, if I had it to do over, I would still want to have a
    child, and if it didn't hurt to have them, and I had more money,
    I'd like to have two.  
    
    I can understand how two people with good jobs, plenty of money,
    and lots of interests in common could have a good life without kids,
    but, I like kids too much to not want one of my own.
    
    Lorna
    

    I am the mother of 2- a 1 year old and a 4 year old. I didn't always
    know if I wanted kids but something inside of me yearned for a baby
    of my own. Realizing that I had done all the traveling and junk
    that I wanted to do, I felt it was time but I still wasn't sure.
    Well, I had them anyway and this is how I feel.
    
    * Daniel and Lisa are truly the sunshine of my life. I adore them
      more than life itself. They give me more than anyone has ever
      given me. Caring for a dog is no comparison. Babysitting is no
      comparison.
    
    * I could start a new career anytime. I could buy a new house anytime.
      I could not have children anytime. The biological clock is a harsh
      reality although I believe He had His reasons.
    
    * I wasn't really sure about my house until I bought it. I wasn't
      really sure about my car until I drove it. I wasn't really sure
      about my children until I experienced the beauty of their birth.
    
    Kate
    
                
    

    I'm not planning to have children any time soon, but I'm young enough
    that people can say, "Well, you might change your mind."  Which is
    true, but I'm not holding my breath.  Right now, about the only thing
    that could possibly tempt me to have a child was to preserve the genes
    (yes, I'm arrogant), but I have three brothers and a sister who could
    probably handle the job just as well.
    
    Why not kids?
    
    1.  I think I'd make a miserable parent.  I need lots of private time
    and I'm rotten at handling frustrations, which means the kid runs a
    reasonably high risk of getting smacked around.  Not something I want
    to do.
    
    2.  The idea of being responsible for someone's moral development gives
    me the willies.  I don't want to manage adults; I *certainly* don't
    want to manage children.
    
    3.  I hate throwing up.  The very idea of morning sickness is enough to
    put me off pregnancy.

    I have five children, now ranging in age from 20 to 12 (essentially
    5 teenagers! :-}).
    
    Had we had more space and the financial resources we would have adopted
    more kids.
    
    Having teenages is rough, I'd be the first to admit it. However, could
    I go back in time I'd still have had more children could we have swung
    it.
    
    My vote is still a resounding *yes*, to having kids.
    
    Bonnie

    Suzanne brought up a good point with her "if it ain't broke..."
    line. The fact is that if a couple gets along really well and
    comfortably, that may very well change with the addition of
    children. The piled on frustrations and burdens that children
    bring with them could well be the make-or-break point in a
    relationship. Don't get the idea that I'm saying that it's
    *necessarily* so -- there are scads of couples that would
    prove that wrong. Just that it *could* be so in some cases.
    
    Chelsea's reason #1 is another reason I've felt less and less
    inclined to want kids. It took me a long time to admit it to
    myself, but I don't think I'd make a good parent.
    
    --- jerry

    One thing that always amazes me in discussions of whether to have
    kids is the number of intelligent, perceptive, sensitive, caring
    people like Chelsea, Suzanne, and Jerry, the kind of people who I
    wish were raising the next generation, who are convinced that they
    wouldn't make good parents.  (Not to mention the number of
    selfish, immature people I know who are convinced they're
    wonderful parents, but that's another question.) 
    
    I don't understand it.  The way people talk, you'd think you had
    to be a qualified preschool teacher before you could successfully
    raise children.  Why do you think being a parent requires that you
    not be yourself?  Yes, children do take time, but they don't
    require you to sacrifice all your time, and they certainly don't
    require you to be someone you're not.  All you have to do is share
    yourself honestly with a small person.
    
    Children love you for what you are, not for what you think you
    should be.  Not even for what your mother was, or what you wish
    she had been.  I was astonished to learn that one of the things I
    felt most guilty about, not being home for Kat when she got home
    from grade school, was one of the things she liked best about
    having a working mom.  And she told me she admires me for being
    willing to work long hours to get my job done!  
    
    The patience -- well, it does get on your nerves sometimes.  The
    difference between an abusive parent and a nonabusive parent isn't
    the degree of aggravation or the reaction to it.  It's just that
    hairsbreadth of self-perception that lets you see what you're
    about to do and step back, separate yourself from the child until
    you can cool down.  People who are aware that they might hit a
    child are much less likely to actually do it than are people who
    insist, "oh, I would NEVER do that!"
    
    I'm not saying that these things aren't real problems.  And if
    you're convinced they would keep you from being a good parent,
    they probably would have that effect.  But being aware of them
    beforehand is more than halfway to overcoming them.  
    
    --bonnie

    Well, I haven't read all 30 replies to the topic, but here's my
    input.
    
    No, I don't wanna have children.  Like a reply about two back said,
    I'm still young enuf where everyone likes to tell me "Well, maybe
    you'll change your mind." (I'm 25, and sometimes think that already
    I am behind schedule, so to speak, where I to decide I wanted kids)
    ;)
    
    Why?
    
    #1  Well, I'd make a damn fine parent, but I don't WANNA be a parent.
    Lots of people don't like others to say this, but I don't like kids.
    Mine or anyone elses.  All things considered, I'd rather buy a puppy.
    It might have something to do with the fact I pretty much consider
    the rest of my siblings to be below-par examples of what kids can
    turn out like (and I have witnessed first hand the trials and
    tribulations misbehaving kids can cause their still-loving parents),
    and I don't really feel like I wanna go through with that.                
    
    
    #2  I'm selfish.  I admit it.  I wanna live life for me, not for
    someone who will be dependant upon me for 20 or so years, and then
    years afterwards.  My perspective is that I don't need to have
    children--the human race isn't in any danger of dying to attrition,
    and in fact, I think there's too many people around as it is.  I
    also figure as far as keeping the bloodlines going, my brother can
    do that.  :)  ::note--"me" includes my significant whatever at the
    time, too::
    
    #3  Pregnancy and childbirth looks like a BIG pain.  Maybe if kids
    were like Polariods--you know, thirty seconds later and POOF!
    InstaKid, I'd consider it.  ;)  Right now, I think the whole
    month-to-month stuff with being a woman is more trouble than it's
    worth.....   
    
    
    So, nopers, guess I'm one of those woman who isn't loving and nurting
    with aspects to children.  I don't think that makes me resoundingly
    evil, but I wouldn't want me as my babysitter.   ;)
    
    ----kim

	Maybe the reason some of us say we would not be good parents
	is because we lived in an dysfunctional household and know
	what our limits are.  This has little to do with our treatment
	and actions in situations where we have limited frustrations
	and  pressures.  A sick child (at any age) can trigger a bad
	response and if we know that that would be dangerous for us
	then our choice to not to have children is not selfish at all.

	_peggy

    Re: .33
    
    That's a good point, Peggy -- having grown up in a fully
    functional family, I sometimes forget how difficult it was for
    others, and how hard it is to break the cycle.
    
    I did not by any stretch of the imagination mean to imply that
    people who don't think they would make good parents are either
    selfish or mistaken.  They know themselves better than I do.  But,
    as Herb says, it's sad that so many of the insightful people are
    choosing not to have children and so many of the thoughtless ones
    are having them.  It seems like skimming the best parents out of
    the pool, so a higher and higher percentage of kids are raised in
    dysfunctional families.
    
    --bonnie

    
    	I'm thrilled that many people have decided not to have children.
    	There are too many unwanted children/poor parents as it is.
        Many of my childhood friends were unwanted in the sense that
    	their parents blamed the children for the parent's unhappiness.
    
    	Unfortunately, children don't come with instruction books, and
    	you can't always "try before you buy".
    
    	My wife and I planned to have one of each gender (which we did).
    	We were prepared for the sacrifice and have not regretted it 
    	so far :-).
    
    	Guy
    

.35 and others...a twist on "The Marching Morons?" (by Sturgeon, I think.)

Basic premise: some generations in the future, the world is termendously
overpopulated, primarly by morons (IQ ave 45, it said in the book, which 
doesn't make any sense, since 1) IQ avg is defined as 100, and 2) people
wiht an IQ of 45 by current standards can't even feed themselves, but still)
because in *our* time, all intelligent people stopped having children.
Those teeming billions are taken care of by 3 million or so elite intelligent
people, who came into being because a few intelligent people saw what was
happening to the Earth and considered it their duty to pass on their genes.

D!

    If anyone would have asked me six years ago if I wanted kids I would
    have given them the following answer, "Why?"  I had a great marriage,
    nothing but free time, and all the spending cash I wanted.  Why would I
    ever want to tie myself down with a messy, whiny kid?  I truly believed
    that people that had kids or wanted kids were mentally unstable.
    
    The first ten years of our marriage was filled with the usual
    questions/pressures of when we were going to have a baby.  (My
    mother-in-law even bought a VERY expensive bottle of wine and told
    everybody she saw that she was saving it for the birth of our first
    child.)  There was a period of time (after about 5 years) that we
    considered having a baby just to shut these people up.
    
    After 10 years of marriage we decided we did want to become parents. 
    
    If I could do it over would I become a parent - yes.  Would I do it
    sooner in my marriage - no.  Our daughter has definitely changed our
    lives.  But only for the better.  We needed those 10 years to explore,
    to experience, to grow.  Now we are continuing to explore, experience,
    and grow, but it is through different eyes.
    
    Linda
    

RE:37

That was a great story....recommended.

I'm also one who doesn't want kids for at least another 7-8-9 years.

Why?  I guess my main reason is that I enjoy my freedom too much right now.
I like to be spontaneous, and with kids, that's just not easy.

I also hate when kids cry.  It's one of the most irritating noises to me.

People may say that it's my duty as a woman to reproduce, but I was never told
that.

Lisa

    I don't know if I want to have kids.  Right now I don't think I do. 
    But I *DO* want to positively impact children in the world.  There are
    many ways I can do this:
    
    volunteer at daycare centers
    teach children something on a part time basis
    volunteer in libraries to read children's books aloud once a week
    borrow the children of friends/family to give them a break and
    	let me sample the wonders of children again
    be a "big sister"
    
    and these are just a few!
    
    Kids are great.....I just don't know if I want the responsibility or
    expense of raising any.
    
    -Jody
    

Some thoughts regarding children and my ability as a parent...

I was in the Big Brother/Big Sister program last year, and that was one strong
convincing point that I *don't* want to be a parent.

Tammy was a "problem child" in many, many ways. I thought I could handle it,
and I did, but I didn't like it, and I had a *very* hard time dealing with
it.  I think I would make a fine parent to "normal, healthy" children...in
the sense that their attitudes are "healthy".  (That is, I don't think my
child being handicapped would affect me the same way.)  But I am not cut
out for "tough love".  No one really knows what makes some kids "bad kids",
even when other children in the same family turn out fine.  It might be
upbringing, in which case I could control it...but it might not. It could be
genetics or circumstance or anything else out of my control...and I know,
from my experience with Tammy, that I do *not* have the strength the handle
a "problem child".  I get angry and frustrated, blame the child and myself,
and get into a vicious cycle of negative emotions and effects.

So I think I would be a good parent to 90% of the children...but can I take
the chance that I will get one of the 10% who require "tough love"?  Am
I willing to gamble on 9:1 odds that I won't end up in a parental relationship
which could drive me to abuse, emotional or physical?  Is it fair to child
or parent to risk it?  

I dunno, but I think it is important when trying to decide if you can be
a "good parent" to consider not just whether you can be a good parent to
an average child, but if you could also be a good parent to a 'special needs
child', whether that special need comes from physical or mental handicap,
upbringing, or whatever.

I am not sure I have the strength of character it would take.

Trying being Big Sister to a special needs child for a year.  Not only will
it give you insight into yourself, it will give you a great deal of respect
for folks who can manage to be supportive, productive, loving parents of
the "bad kids".

D!

And if you are thinking "That couldn't happen to me.  My kid can't be one of
'the bad kids' because I am {white|middle class|intelligent|caring|normal|etc}"
think again.  It *can* happen to you.  It isn't just the families living in
poverty; it isn't just the families in which there is abuse or alcoholism or
divorce; it isn't just in minority families or families in bad neighborhoods
or families with too many children.  It's in the family next door to you and
in the family of your coworker, and it could be in *your* family...think about
it: can you handle it?

D!

    re: .41 and .42
    
    Thank you for adding that reminder, D!.  I grew up poor but
    healthy, happy, and loved -- it was pretty hard at the time and I
    still have problems dealing with money, but only now, when I see
    the abuse and dysfunction that wounded so many people with more
    monetary amenities, that I'm really beginning to appreciate what a
    blessing a functional family is.
    
    I think different personalities react differently to the potential
    danger that you cite, however.  I've never liked to live my life
    in fear of the bad things that might happen.  Sometimes I have to
    bow to reality, but generally I think, "If that does happen, I'll
    find the strength to cope with it somewhere, somehow.  I'm tough,
    I'm competent, I will handle it."  I don't know how realistic that
    is, but my life has taught me that most problems are easier to
    deal with when you're actually in them than when you're
    anticipating them.  
    
    But that's my philosophy.  Someone with a different perspective on
    the chances of something going wrong is right to decide otherwise.  
    
    --bonnie

RE:  D!

Do you think that tough love is only needed only "problem kids"?  I
guess I view it was needed for everyone (and not just kids either).
That is, setting and following through with reasonable limits on what
you will and will not accept.

I've just started working down at Children's Hospital and I think I am
in for quite an experience.  I was really blown away last night but
these very sick children (some in for chemo, some having surgery, some
with chronic illnesses) playing with me and smiling and loving me, a
complete stranger dispite their condition.  I found it really
inspirational!

God, it reminds me how short life is and how many opporutunities there
are to show love and compassionate and how limited I am as an adult in
expressing my innate loving and compassionate nature.  Even the
resistance and nervousness barriers I felt on my first night were
interesting to be aware of.  I hope I get to work through these
barriers at the hospital in the future.   Maybe they will rub off
(literally and hopefully) with the bigger kids in my life :-).

I feel so full of appreciation for these 3 children I met last night.
It was good of them to volunteer to help me!!!

;-)
john

John (-1)

>Do you think that tough love is only needed only "problem kids"?  I
>guess I view it was needed for everyone (and not just kids either).
>That is, setting and following through with reasonable limits on what
>you will and will not accept.

I know that the practices they teach you in programs like "Toughlove" really
apply to all children, but I meant that I would have difficulty with the
"love" part, not the "tough" part.  That is, I think I could provide
the structure and limits most kids need. But I am not sure I could
be loving and supportive to all children.  I do not think I could provide
a healthy healing environment for a troubled child.  Some parents have
problems setting limits for problem children that the love.  Some parents
have trouble being loving to problem children, even if they can set
limits.  I think I'd be one of the latter.  (Which isn't to say I wouldn't
love them...but I don't know if I could handle being *loving*.  It
wouldn't surprise if in a situation like that, I ended up an abusive
(especially emotionally) or neglecting parent, or withdraw my
attention/feelings from them.  And I don't think any kid, no matter how
problematic, deserves that.

Bonnie,
I understand not wanting to live your life contantly thinking about the
risks.  But still, I think every person considering parenthood should be
reminded that there *is* such a thing as a problem child, and it could
be their's; even if they decide not to deal with the possibility until/if
it happens, they should realize that it can happen.  The thing you hear
over and over from such parents is "I nevr thought it could happen to *me*".
(Of course, that is probably true of just about every bad thing in the
world...no one really thinks it can happen to *them*.  Strange, this
feeling of immortality and unharmability us fragile humans internalize.)

D!

    re:.31
    
    Well, gee, I appreciate the fact that you consider me to be an
    "intelligent, perceptive, sensitive, and caring" person who would
    make the right sort of person to be raising children. My feelings
    about my adequecy as a potential parent comes from some small
    amount of experience. After one of my sisters got divorced, she
    and her two sons came back to live with my parents (I was in my
    early teens at the time, so I was still living there, too). I
    quite often played the role of "substitute parent", feeding the
    kids (one was about 2-3, the other less than a year old), changing
    diapers, and the like.
    
    In later years, I occasionally had the duty of disciplining them
    in the absence of their mother or grandparents. There were too
    many times when I got frustrated enough with them that I just wanted
    to give them a good beating, and this horrified me. Even more so
    was the fact that I *did* on occasion hit them, at least one time
    when it was "above and beyond" what was called for.
    
    I'm not against physical punishment per se. My parents used it when
    I or my siblings got out of hand, though I never felt that they
    were abusive. I also never got the feeling that they ever hit me
    out of frustration. *That's* the difference I saw in myself. I
    don't consider myself an abusive person, but I know from this
    experience that it's possible for me to "step over the line", and
    I would just as soon avoid this possibility.
    
    On the other hand, I can take comfort in knowing that not once
    have I ever even thought about raising my hand in anger to a friend
    or a loved one (discounting my nephews -- and sometimes my sister
    would get me mad enough that I wanted to whack her, though I never
    actually did. And there were the occasional and inevitable fights
    with my brother, though in those cases, I was almost always on the
    defense). So, I suppose I'm not entirely hopeless. :-)
    
    But this is just one aspect of my feeling that I wouldn't be a good
    parent. I've also seen from other experiences that I'm not an
    especially good teacher or manager, that again, I get easily
    frustrated, and that frustration can end up being expressed by
    anger.
    
    And, on a more frivolous note, I should point out that given my
    current status as single and unattached, with no possibilities
    of that changing in the foreseeable future, the question of whether
    I'll be having any children is rather moot. :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Re: .46
    
    Thanks for explaining.  You know yourself better than I do, and
    I'm not trying to talk you into changing your mind, even if the
    circumstances :) were different.  Someone who doesn't want to have
    children shouldn't have children, no matter what their reasons
    are. 
    
    But my experience as a parent tells me that the things many people
    *think* are important about nurturing a child are not the things
    that really matter to a child.  They think that because they don't
    have the patience of a saint and the creativity of a preschool
    teacher, they can't give love and stimulation, and that's just not
    true.  When someone just says "I don't think I'd make a good
    parent because I'm too impatient," it's hard to know whether they
    really are impatient, or whether they're just insecure about not
    being supermom/dad.  Nobody is superparent.  Kids don't even WANT
    superparent.  They want a human being who can love them and guide
    them.  
    
    People who are aware that bad things can happen and who are aware
    that they can do bad things, that they are only human and are
    fallible, make better parents than people who never think about it
    and are surprised when their child has a problem or their temper
    gets out of control because they were beaten when they were
    little.  
    
    And this does not mean that I think anybody SHOULD be a parent,
    only an observation that for valid reasons some of the best
    potential parent material is selecting itself out and some of the
    worst potential parent material is injuring the next generation.
    And I mean best in a behavioral, not in a genetic, sense.  The
    only abusive parent I know personally has an IQ up off the top of
    the scale.
    
    --bonnie

    re .46
    I've always thought it a poor test to judge ones parenting ability
    using the "step-in parent" test. These children have been molded
    by someone else. The way they are behaving is difficult for you
    to understand and deal with because they are not in a state of
    development that you, as a substitute, could possibly understand in
    full.
    
    I hope that if/when I have children I will be dealing with them
    from day 1. I will see them grow before me and I will be responsible
    for their progress. Knowing "what makes them tick" has got to be
    a crucial component when it comes to disciplining them. 

    For this reason I would not like to be in a situation of playing parent
    to someone elses children.
    
    Gail

Once in a while, a topic hits my hot button .....

My strongest recommendation is to do whatever *you* want!

	*Ignore* those who say you should have children;

		For companionship in your old age. 

			Who knows, the child (children) might just
			end up living is East Puckerbrush, Wyoming, a
			thousand miles away. 

			Wouldn't your SO by there to share these days
			with you and, statistically, be a better bet?

		Because you *ought to*;

			Kids (I have five) are incredibly perceptive. 
			They will sense the "I don't know if I really
			wanted you" feelings you will have (and try to 
			keep) in your innermost self. 

		That would be selfish;

			So what?

			Is that wrong?


Rather, ask yourself "Why do I *want* children?"

	If you *believe* your answers, enjoy them!

	If you can't answer that question, don't!

	If you are not sure, don't!


I have five, 

	love then dearly, 

		am presently muddling through the "How much and how
		fast do I let go" issue with the two teenagers, 

			and would do it again in a second! 

				Charlie.....
    

    Never wanted them, never will.  Were I a wealthy woman, I would
    consider them along with a live-in nanny.  But I'm a middle class
    woman and having a child would make me very dependent on a man,
    (too much power imbalance for my comfort there!), on my family,
    (no - I could never do that), or on society, (I wouldn't like myself
    much there either).  I saw what my mother went through and I decided
    when I was probably around 5 or so that I would never live like
    that.  It seems to me that it leaves you way too powerless.  The
    price is just too high.
    
    And sooner or later, many women end up raising the kid(s) alone.
    It's my opinion that that would limit me financially and socially
    after it ruined my bod.  Yeah, yeah, everyone knows someone who has
    kids and a perfect bod.  I don't play the lottery, and I don't think 
    I'll take my chances on this either.  To echo an earlier noter,
    freedom, freedom, freedom!  I don't care if either my genes or my name 
    dies out.  Big deal.  I doubt the world will notice.
                                  
    I get no pressure whatsoever.  I've never wanted kids and everyone
    who knows me has always known that.  But we ALL pressured my sister!
    ;-).  Hey, she has a great marriage and we knew she wanted kids.
    She just needed a little push.  You only get pressure if others
    think you're on the fence.
    
    Selfish?  I couldn't care less.  I have every right.
    
    The "old age" argument is both a selfish reason to have kids and
    also an obsolete one.  When I get old, there will be many more healthy,
    old, single folks than ever.  I'll be just the same as I am now
    but with an old man, (or two),  on my arm!   ;-)  Mona Robinson,
    move over!  ;-)  ;-)
    
    

    
    
    my wife and I have children. I can't imagine what life would be like
    without them. They certainly make it interesting and fun. I don't 
    understand why someone would consider another who chooses not to
    have children as being selfish. Being married without children would
    be different.
    

    If I could have a nanny, I *might* go through with it.  Oh, wait,
    there's still the whole pregnancy business.  Never mind.  I'll stick to
    cats (assuming I ever wind up living someplace I can have them).

    re:.48
    
    Normally, I'd agree with you, if it was a question of my sister
    living elsewhere and just using me as a babysitter once in a
    while. But since we all lived under the same roof, I was, in a
    sense, as much a molder of my nephews as my sister or my parents.
    
    Actually, I'd say that my relationship to my nephews has always
    been more like a big brother than an uncle, but they grew up with
    me for a period of something like 8 years, while they were in their
    "formative years", so I'd say I had a fairly big influence in their
    upbringing.
    
    --- jerry

    	Interesting to come back from vacation and find this note, as
    it's something I've been thinking about lately.  While growing up
    (and even up to the last couple years), I always just assumed that
    someday I'd get married and have kids.  but lately, I've really
    started questioning those assumptions.  And while I am still young
    and could possibly change my mind, I don't think I want to have
    children.  A lot of the reasons I came up with have been mentioned
    here.  In particular, Chelsea's response (.28) about being
    responsible for someone's moral development really struck a chord
    with me.  As did D!'s response about dealing with "problem
    children".  Frankly, it scares the hell out of me.

    	My step-father once commented to me that raising children was
    *THE* hardest job to do.  And when I see what he went through with
    his kids (and is still going through), I know there's no way I
    could ever deal with that.  And it's one thing to say (as my
    brother does) "When I have kids, I'll never do X", and another
    thing to actually be able to do that.  Knowing what I grew up
    with, I just couldn't see risking inflicting that on anyone else.
    Perhaps if I'd grown up in a healthier environment, I might feel
    different, but who knows.

    	Some people know they want to parent, and to them - kudos.

    	amy

    

    I think this is THE ONE biggest improvement in women's lives.  When
       my parents married in the early 50's, marriage and children were
        one idea.   I wish that some of my aunts could have chosen not 
          to have children   :-)


     
   

     And certainly every decision of this magnitude should be made 
        "selfishly".  If you have (or refrain from having) children because
            of the wishes of anyone other than yourself, you are on dangerous
                ground.




     Barbi 

    I too have been giving a lot of thought about this.  One minute
    I really want a baby, and the next minute, I don't.  This is usually
    after returning from my sister's house.  She has 3 boys, who I adore,
    but can be real hellions (2, 4, and 6 years old).  My husband and
    I took the two year old for a weekend this fall, and boy, that was
    the longest weekend of my life.  It was TUFF and that was only 1.
    Good thing I didn't take all 3.   My sister can't believe I found
    it so hard.  After all, he did go to bed at 7:30pm and didn't get
    up until 10:00 am.  Why could I have possibly found it so hard?
    Well he was very good, but just a typical 2 year old (maybe I should
    have taken the 6 year old).  I just bought a new kitten (Beautiful
    little Abyssinian) the night I took him.  For the whole weekend,
    all he wanted to do was torture and chase the kitten.  Ok, guess
    I should have waited until the next weekend to get the kitten, but
    that was the only time I could get him.  Then there was the meal
    times.  
    
      Jonathan  "Memere, more mik peaze"  (yes I'm Auntie Pam but he
                                           called me memere)
      Me "After you finish your toast"
    
      Jonathan  "no, more mik peaze"
    
      Me "After you finish your toast"
    
      Jon "NO MORE MIK PEAZE!  NOW"
    
      Me  " Here, have some more milk"
    
      Jon " Memere, more toast peaze"   (now I'm still trying to eat
                                         breakfast too)
      Me "After you finish that toast"  (He won't go within 2 inches
                                         of the crust)
      Jon "No, me all done, me want more toast"
    
      Me "No, you're not done, finish that toast and you can have more"
    
      Jon " NO ME WANT MORE TOAST NOW!!!"
    
      Me - gave up and got him more toast.  Sit down again to try to
           eat
    
      Jon "Tank you Memere"
          "Memere, more mik peaze"
    
      Me "AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
    
      
    and this goes on over and over and over again at every meal.  I
    know, just terrible twos right.  I'll tell you, I was exausted after
    a weekend with him.  My husband was too and he is the one who
    definitely wants 1 or 2 kids (used to want 3 before he got to know
    and love our nephews).  I love my nephews to death and will probably
    end up having kids since my husband wants them, but if he should
    change his mind, I wouldn't be upset at all.  My sister would have
    10 if she had the money.  Spends all her time at the school, as
    a volunteer, working with the kids (would rather be giving her time
    at the school than working even though they are very broke all of
    the time.  
    
    I don't know what we'll do.  I guess time will tell.  My husband
    says when you die, you die, it would be nice to leave a part of
    yourself behind.  I don't know if that should be a reason to have
    kids.  2 cats is hard enough work.  The main reason I think about
    not having kids is because I am very happy with our life (as someone
    else said earlier).  We have a great marriage (going on 3 years)
    and do what we want, when we want.  Another thing, I was married
    before.  I would have hated to think of going through life, unhappily
    married, for the sake of our children.  It was much easier to just
    up and leave.  No ties.  
    
    I'm 28 years old now.  If we have children, we would like to have
    them in 3 years.  My husband would like to have them a little later
    but I don't want to be too old.  Is there a note discussing whether
    people were happy or not with their decistion to wait to have 
    children until they were in their 30's?  Were you happy with the
    decision?  
    
    One more selfish reason for not wanting children (also mentioned
    in note .50 I believe), I hate the thought of what pregnancy will
    do to my body.  Ok, so maybe I'm vain, but I work very hard to keep
    myself in good shape.  My sister (15 months older than me) has a
    stomach that looks like a 90 year old ladies stomach.  
    
    Hmmmm, decisions, descisions.  To have or not to have!
    
    Sorry for rambling.   
    
    Pam

    Re .56
    
    Pam,
    
    That breakfast sounded pretty normal with a two year old, to me...and I
    don't think that type of behavior is what coined the "terrible
    twos"...they're worse.
    
    The important thing to remember here, is that they're not born at two. 
    So, unless you adopt, you have two years to "grow with them"...Before I
    had Katie, I couldn't imagine dealing with the scenario you
    described--now, its just part of life...and I'm incredibily richer for
    it, and knowing her.  For every scene like the one you described,
    there's another like..when she saw me crying and threw her arms around
    me saying "hug,hug"...serving dinner for just the two of us, and having
    her look up and say "yum...oh yum!"  There's frustration, but lots of
    joy--and I think its the joy that you feel differently when its your
    own child, rather than a nephew, or friend.  And its the joy that makes
    the frustration worth it.
    
    Re age...I had Katie a few months before I turned 31...sometimes I wish
    I'd started sooner so I could have 10...but I wasn't ready...and if
    you're not ready,your chronological age is irrelevant.  I am a much
    better parent than I would have been at 23, 25, or even 28.  I have
    freinds that have had their first at 40, and wouldn't have done it
    differently.  Only you know what will be right for you.
    
    Re the physical part...there is no reason for pregnancy to destroy your
    body...if you're in great shape before, you'll be fine after...
    
    Susan

    For me, the question of 'having kids' is pretty much the same
    question as 'having a partner'.  I liked my life just fine
    when I was single.  I came and went as I pleased.  I didn't have
    to pick up after anyone else.  I set my own priorities.

    But having a partner is a wonderful thing.  Sharing your life
    with a partner, their sharing their life with you.  It's hard sometimes.
    You balance the good and the bad...hopefully the good wins.

    Kids are an extension of that.  Little bundles of joy with a few
    prickly edges that do surely cut now and then.  When they're young
    they're completely dependent on you.  But god are they cute.  And
    before you know it they're real people.

    I'm sure that many people stay single all their life as they prefer
    it that way.  Some may prefer to share it with only one other.
    But if you prefer a life shared with another, kids can be
    wonderful.
    bob