Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Liesel,
    
    There are a number of books on the market that give advice about
    finding a lover/spouse in less than a year's time. One was titled
    something like how to find a husband after 40, that I sat and read
    part of in a library one afternoon (in a sort of human interest
    curiosity :-) ). I think I even offered it to a couple of friends
    to read. The book had all sorts of tips on how to find a man (it
    was written for heterosexual women). If I remember I'll check at
    the library the next time I go and I'll get the title and author.
    
    So  trying hard can help you meet people. That's not the problem.
    What I perceive as the problem is that when you *want* badly to
    fall in love and have a relationship this can put people off. So
    the more you try to fall in love/ find a lover/ get deep/intense
    etc what ever you call it, the more you scare off people who might
    possibly fit in that category, if given time, by coming on too
    strong at the start. (I know I sure as heck did this in high school!).
    
    Does this make anymore sense?
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie

Liesl,

It's been my experience that all of the people I have really cared about in my
life have shown up at very unexpected times in very unexpected places.  I would
not have thought to look for them where I found them, and would not have thought
of them as the type of person in whom I would be interested or who would be
interested in me.

Actively looking for that certain someone seems to me to be much like trying
to catch a wild mouse which is free to roam my entire house and yard, while
I'm wearing a blindfold and restricting my search area to one randomly selected
small part of my property.

Also, when I am actively looking for someone with whom to have a relationship
I try too hard and give other people a false impression of me.  If a
relationship begins to develop, eventually I stop trying so hard and the other
person finds out what I'm really like.  At this point the relationship is
usually in trouble.  I tend, too, to try and hurry the relationship, which
scares away the other person.

For me, the work in relationships comes in two phases.

Phase one, which seems to me to be the majority of the work, has several parts.
One is working to develop myself into the type of person I really want to be.
This is a lifetime task.  The level of personal development I have achieved at
any given time determines who will be attracted to me at that time, and whether
or not I'm prepared for a relationship with that person at that time.

Another part of phase one is being receptive to the possibility of a
relationship coming from anywhere at any time.

The third part of phase one is following my intuition and pursuing or
initiating the development of potential relationships.

Phase two begins only after a relationship has developed to the point
where differences begin to become apparent enough and important enough that
problems have to be solved.  Phase two also includes part of the ongoing
personal development which is part of phase one.

					Larry
					  ~

	 liesl....i think you need to go out with me more!  (Ack!  i
	 wouldn't wish that on anyone!)  :-)

	 seriously, tho.....

	 I think the problem here is not so much "don't look", but "be
	 yourself."

         I can't say that I'm not looking...if I did, I would be
	 lying.  I desire to have someone close to me, to be with
	 me...to know that I can come home to at night and fall into
	 their arms....  But I find that when I actually make an
	 effort to find that person, I tend to adjust myself to each
	 and every person I come in contact with.  The first thing
	 that comes to my mind is "who is this man, is he single, and
	 what is he looking for in a woman, am I that woman?"  Poof!
	 There he goes.....I'm not being MYSELF!!!

	 When you try to adjust to someone to "make them like
	 you"...well, people can sense that....

	 Too many times I've seen myself laughing a little louder than
	 I should, having my palms sweat, not letting my eyes make
	 contact, etc, etc, etc....all because I'm "interested" in
	 someone....Now I ask you...is that me?  Is the real me a
	 nervous, shy little girl?  Not at all...

	 When a person is themselves, without the outside pressure on
	 them of having to FIND someone, they exhibit a
	 self-confidence that is like a shining light! That self
	 confidence, that belief in yourself is what is the
	 attraction.

	 believe in yourself and be yourself.

	 kath

	 PS:  Wanna go see Bijou St Blues Band this weekend?  :-)

    Leisl,  I won't say any more than I know *exactly* how you feel,
    and nothing anybody can say will make any difference.  Hang in there
    as they keep saying to me....
    
    I loathe the pub/club scene anyway.  But I do prefer to have lots
    of male friends.  More fun.
    
    ...dale
    

Funny, I always meet people by trying to meet them.  When I am lonely, I go
out of my way to put myself in a situation where I will meet people, and
usually I do.  In fact, only once have a met a man "by accident"...

I think, as some people pointed out earlier, the trick isn't that you shouldn't
be looking, but that you shouldn't be *desperate*.  You talk about trying
with, f'rinstance, your career - well you wouldn't go into an interview, fall
on your knees in front of the interviewer and say "Oh pleeeeze, please, I need
this job SOOOO bad, pretty please with honey on top, hire me?"  Yet that
attitude is one I have encountered in potential companions many times.  They
meet you, and if they have gone a while (a few months for the lucky ones, maybe
even a few years for the unlucky ones) without having a date, and you look
like you might be a possibility, they practically smother you trying not to
let the opportunity pass.  Yucho, what a turn on.

(Actually I have this weakness in my heart for desperation...or I used to,
it arose from insecurity - bceause I knew that anyone that desperate wouldn't
leave me.  In the end tho that is inevitably dissatisfying and hurtful to
both of us...but that is another topic...)

D!

    Liesl:
    
    It's this state of mind thing.  I know exactly how you feel, and
    Kath, about the "molding yourself" to make yourself more likable
    to the men in your life, I've gone that route too.
    
    No longer.  My last relationship taught me more than I needed to
    know about playing games and heartache.  I vowed that this time,
    I would get comfortable with myself and try and settle myself down.
    To build a life *without* a man, for so many times before I let
    my entire world revolve around the men in my life.  I let family
    and friends take precedence over men (for once, and now they still
    come first!).  I started doing things I never did before (got back
    into riding horses, which I haven't done in about 3 years, got back
    into finishing college, which I had dropped to care for my sick
    ex-boyfriend) and things that I had just given up on.  I started
    feeling content and LIKED myself.
    
    Then I began dating.  I met all the goofs in the world, just had
    thought about giving it up and not dating, giving myself some more
    time, when I met Sean.  I wasn't looking for him, and he wasn't
    looking for me.  But we met, and it's been great.  He told me it
    was my personality that really got to him, my inner peace and happiness
    with myself.  I believe it draws people to you.  My friends and
    family tell me that my inner peace is very noticable.  I've never
    been happier.  And not only that, but since Sean and I have been
    dating, I've never had more men ask me out than now.  Of course,
    I don't take the offers up, 'cause I'm content right now.  But other
    men see the happiness and I guess they must be drawn to it too.
    
    I think you should take care of yourself.  Do things for YOU.  I've
    met a ton of men through school.  Why don't you take a night course?
    I do needlework, that makes me happy when there's nothing else to
    do (like study).  I bet you can find a lot of things that interest
    you that aren't too expensive.  Invest in yourself.  Make peace
    with your family and extend yourself to new aquaintences, they are
    future friends!  I lean heavily on family when I need emotional
    support, also friends, and they never let me down.
    
    My life has changed in this past year since my ex passed on.  I
    think I would be in the same situation as you, Liesl, if I hadn't
    decided to make a drastic change in the way I live my life and deal
    with the people around me.  Not that before I was intolerable, but
    before all I cared about was having a man there for my emotional
    support.  Now I lean on myself and my family and friends instead
    of waiting for the knight in shining armor.
    
    Please MAIL me if you'd like to chat.  I'll be in MA next week (20th
    through 27th) if you'd like to get together and have a chat and
    a drink (I don't really drink all that much but ...).
    
    IMHO, by the way!
    
    Tammi
    

    
    RE: .6 (Tammi):
    
    Hear, hear!

    A friend of mine (apparently) decided it was time to marry.
    
    He began by taking dancing lessons.  Then he signed up with a
    dating service, and dated his assigned matches.  One of our
    mutual friends tentatively pointed out to him that since no one
    *else* we knew had ever signed up with a dating service, he was
    not really likely to find someone compatible.  He agreed, but
    quoted his father, who had told him that it was a good way to
    PRACTICE.  He knew he was only practicing (and he practiced with
    me too), so he didn't worry to much about his mistakes and faux
    pas, but he learned from them.
    
    He's married now, and very happy.
    
    So when you go into dating, start with the idea that this is a
    skill set that can be learned, and mastered.  Learn to be pleasant
    to {Mr.|Ms.} Gloom, charming to {Mr.|Ms.} Ugly, conversant with
    {Mr.|Ms.} Silence, graceful with {Mr.|Ms.} Stick.  When {Mr.|Ms.}
    Right arrives, being yourself will mean being your natural best.
    
    							Ann B.

    Re: kath, of course I'll go see Bijou street, I love them!

    I appreciate everyone's thought and concern. And thank you to those
    who sent mail also. And here it comes, the big BUT,

    BUT, I do go to school at night, I have for years (and one of these
    days I'll get enough credits in one subject to graduate) I've meet
    lots of women at school. Not many men, but I'm going for the
    learning so it's not a big disapointment.

    Because I'm a technical person at work I meet lots of men. It's not
    rare to go to a meeting and I'll be one of the two or three women
    out of 15 men. They certainly know I'm there, I actually have
    opinions and am not afraid to voice them. Besides, a blonde woman in
    bright pink stands out in just about any meeting.
    
    I have many and varied personal interests, I am not sitting in a
    corner sucking my thumb waiting for a man to appear. My life is
    full, I have many friends and I have a good time. I'm the class
    clown and people usually find me at work by tracking down my
    laughter. I can hold my own in a war of wits, I'm well read and
    (IMHO) intelligent (most of the time, I admit to occasional lapses
    and some down right stupidities now and again). I've never been
    pretty but I'm not ugly either.

    BUT, I want a man in my life. Is that such a crime? Can I never be
    considered healthy if that's what I want? Must it be hidden like a
    secret I'm ashamed of? This reminds me of high school, "don't act
    like you like him or he won't be interested." "Never go out with a guy
    if he hasn't asked you well in advance, you don't want him to know
    you weren't busy."

    Several people have mentioned not appearing "desperate". I haven't
    been close enough to anybody to act desperate towards them. Aside
    from my close friends and people who read this notesfile I'd venture
    to guess that no one knows how I feel about this. Besides, no one
    has to worry about me trying to force them into a marriage, I doubt
    if I'll ever trust anyone enough for that again. I'd like to have
    the chance to act desperate. At least then I'd have something I
    could correct. liesl

    Looking can work, if you don't start to feel (and look) desperate.
    Cynthia  decided that she wanted to get married, and set a goal to
    meet  24  men in the next year. Through various singles activities
    and  ads  she  met  27. Some were worth a second date, though none
    were  wortha  third  date.  At that point she was going to rethink
    what  she  was  doing, and bumped into me almost accidentaly. (But
    I'll describe that in the "how did you meet?" note.)

    And some  of  my  friends  have  found  reasonable  people to date
    through dating services.

--David

    I've been thinking about the "be carefull what you wish for comment"
    along with the replies to this note. My last note was a major
    frustration release since I feel I'm pretty much leading my life as
    an individual and not coping out.

    Maybe I'm just not ready yet and it shows, I don't know what I'd
    even do if I met somebody I liked. Probably act like a fool I
    suppose. I never had much experience dating and don't really think
    that a social custom made for 18 year olds fits very well on someone
    who's 39.

    I'm ready to retreat back to my poetry and be quiet about the
    subject of men for another 6 months. At least at work I'll have a
    little BLISS in my life to keep me occupied for the winter. (OK, so
    it's tacky humor, gotta laugh at yourself sometime :*)) over and
    out, liesl

    Liesl, (and anyone else out there)
    
    I think we are in exactly the same place emotionally!  Oh boy, can
    I relate.
    
    I too, am a reasonably together, very active, upper-thirties woman.
     And not meeting anyone, in spite of all that.  I am content and
    capable by myself, but have this yearning to *share*  that simply
    is not being met.  And I'm not sure how to meet it.  Dating isn't
    really the goal, it is just the socially approved means to the end.
    
    Part of my current frustration, petty and small-minded as it is,
    is my father's recent engagement to a truly wonderful woman.  He
    has been widowed for slightly more than 2 years.   I have been divorced
    for more than 10.  Somehow it doesn't seem quite fair that he had
    so little problem a) finding women to date and b) finding a new
    partner, when I can't seem to get off the starting line.  (I know
    "Who said life would be fair?")
    
    
    Basically, I am venting, I guess.  Thanks for the opportunity, and
    the sanity check.
    
    Alison 

    Liesl
    
    I met you at IDECUS and when I did, I thought you were quite
    an attractive woman and much more vivacious than I am, fer sure!
    
    If you're asking about what the problem is with the men you meet;
    Having met you, I would guess that they are intimidated by the
    combination of your attractiveness and your "togetherness" - but mostly
    your togetherness.
    
    Maybe we should collapse this string into,  "What is it about men
    that freaks them out about together women?"
    
    Because my assumption is, they run from it.  You, Liesl, and you,
    Lorna St. Hilaire, (whom I've also had the pleasure of meeting),
    are truly the kind of women about whom men both dream and run from.
    
    Why?  I don't know.  A topic for mennotes????? 
    

.13

>    Maybe we should collapse this string into,  "What is it about men
>    that freaks them out about together women?"


	 I quite often get the line "I didn't ask you out because I
	 figured since you were so nice and pretty, that you would
	 obviously be taken."


	 Did anyone see the Oprah show on "Beautiful Women who
	 can't get dates."  It had some rather popular models and
	 actresses who all professed to being lonely...and dateless.


	 Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing that line...what
	 makes people think that just because you are pretty/nice/etc
	 you will "obviously" be taken.?

	 kath

	 
	     

    Re: .13
    
    > Why?  I don't know.  A topic for mennotes?????
    
    Sandy, go ahead, why don't you start a basenote there?
    
      Alan

    There are {men|women} who are independent, in that they've got their
    act together and have a strong sense of identity.  I really like
    hanging out with these "personality-types", provided its not a
    close-minded form of existence.
    
    And there are {men|women} who are independent to the point of not being
    willing to rely on anyone.  They might give off the impression that
    you're not really a part of their life and that you aren't "needed."
    I've always thought that was just a defense mechanism to avoid getting
    hurt.
    
    Even the most together people can "need" their SO, in that they love
    being around them.  I don't think it has anything to do with having
    your act together or not.

	 Eagle....

>    And maybe superior women just want to believe men are freaked
>    out by their togetherness ... 


         	 I would hardly call "together" women "superior".
	 Makes those of us that aren't all in one piece feel a little
	 "inferior."


	 who's all in one piece anyway? :-)

	 kath

There are men who are attracted to "together" women.  But women are no
different than men in that most have a "vision" of their "perfect mate".
And most keep tossing aside "mismatches" until they find what they're
looking for.  If they ever do.  And if they do find someone who has marks
all down the checklist, and they're STILL not happy, they wonder why...

Some time ago I discarded my own illusions of what would be my "perfect woman".
And I met a lot of terrific women (and some not-so-terrific ones, of course).
If I had kept the blinders on, I would not have had the opportunity to
get to know these women and enjoy the time I spent with them.  Not being
frantic about it really helped me enjoy the relationships.  I knew that
eventually I'd find someone I could truly be happy with for the rest of
my life.

While I understand that the "just relax" cliche sounds ridiculous, it
has its merits.  Rather than feeling frustrated that you can't find someone
"right", just keep your eyes and your heart open, and don't be so quick
to write off someone who doesn't fit your notion of "ideal".  They may
grow on you.

As for you, Liesl...  I know you well enough to say that any man who runs
away from you is a fool, and the one who stays will find a treasure.

				Steve

    I don't think I've ever been "desperate" to find a mate. There are
    times when I feel a little more "driven" to find one than at other
    times. Generally, I feel like a complete enough person unto myself
    that I'm not "missing" anything by not having a partner (though
    having is better than not having).
    
    After my break-up with my last lover, I was pretty gloomy for a
    while, and sort of waffling back and forth between searching and
    not searching for a replacement. Nothing really came my way the
    whole time. A half-year or so ago, I finally said, "To hell with
    it," and just stopped getting worked up about it.
    
    Oddly enough -- or maybe not so oddly enough, given what brought
    this topic up -- I seem to have "cultivated" (unintentionally)
    more potential relationships recently than I ever have before.
    Nothing solid yet, but the possibilities seem to be increasing.
    
    re:.14
    
    I recall back in the spring of my senior year of high school that
    I ran into one of my female classmates at a local mall. This was
    someone who I had shared classes with for a number of years and
    I was always very attracted to her. The subject of the upcoming
    Senior Prom came up, and my jaw almost broke from hitting the floor
    when she told me that no one had asked her to the prom! Were there
    no men of vision in my school or *what*?!  Maybe it was a syndrome
    of "someone who looks that good *has* to be already taken". I don't
    know.
    
    So, all of you are maybe wondering if I asked her. No. First of
    all, I had already been asked to another prom by someone I knew
    outside of school and I couldn't afford to go to two. Secondly,
    I was too damn shy to ask *anyone* (that's why I had to be asked
    to the other one :-)).
    
    --- jerry

    I have approached looking for someone from two primary points of
    reference.  To find someone who likes me, or to find someone I
    like.  (Of course there is always a mixture of both, I'm just talking
    about the primary focus of the effort.)
    
    When I looked for someone who liked me, I felt like a powerless 
    beggar and had a tendency to try to find the other person's mold
    and fit myself to it.  When looking for someone I liked, there was
    an implicit assumption that I was worth finding someone and worth
    being liked in return.  It was empowering.  I was free to find out
    who the other person is, rather than what does the other person want
    in a woman.  I was free to spend time with people who seemed at first
    to be "unsuitable" but pleasant to spend time with -- and some
    surprised me by being very suitable on closer inspection.
    
    Projecting now, I've noticed a similar distinction in people I've
    met.  The people who are looking for someone to choose them give
    me a cloying, parasitic feeling -- "let me see in your head so I can
    make an image to make you believe I'm what you want".  I can't wait to
    get away from them.  The people looking to choose "feel" (to me) more
    relaxed and more interested in who and what I _am_.  I also have a
    higher level of confidence that I'm seeing who they really are.
    
    Does this mean anything to anyone else?
    Beth

>	 Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing that line...what
>	 makes people think that just because you are pretty/nice/etc
>	 you will "obviously" be taken.?

Well...the obvious solution to *that* problem is to find a man *you* lack
and (shall I say it?) ask *him* out!  I know, it's more difficult than I 
make it sound, but really truly it is possible.  I have asked men out before!
And it worked, even!  (in fact, all two or three of them were amazed,
flattered, dumbounded - and quite willing.)

There's the time I actually did a little investigative work to track down
the last name and then phone number of a guy who (I thought, turned out I
was wrong) didn't know I existed.  My, wasn't *he* surprised!

D!

.23>	There's the time I actually did a little investigative work to 
.23>	track down the last name and then phone number of a guy who (I 
.23>	thought, turned out I was wrong) didn't know I existed.  My, 
.23>	wasn't *he* surprised!
    
    	Reminds me of the time I bribed a waiter to give me the phone
    	number of another one of his customers whom I simply *had* to
    	meet.  He turned out to be only 19, but he was quite beautiful 
    	and we had fun while it lasted.
    
    	If you really and truly want to meet someone, there are plenty 
    	of people and plenty of ways.  Most are far less obvious than
    	playing private eye, too!

    	Carla
    

>       <<< Note 828.23 by TLE::D_CARROLL "On the outside, looking in" >>>

>Well...the obvious solution to *that* problem is to find a man *you* lack
>and (shall I say it?) ask *him* out!  I know, it's more difficult than I 
>make it sound, but really truly it is possible.  I have asked men out before!


	 D!.....sorry I gave the impression that I sat back and
	 waiting for them to ask me.......Hahaha!  Not me at all!
	 Many times I ask men out....and THAT is when I get the line
	 "I thought you were taken".....

	 I can't spend my whole life asking men out tho...it IS nice
	 to be asked out myself once in awhile.

	 kath

    
.24>    	Reminds me of the time I bribed a waiter to give me the phone
.24>    	number of another one of his customers whom I simply *had* to
.24>    	meet.  He turned out to be only 19, but he was quite beautiful
.24>    	and we had fun while it lasted.


	 That, my dear, was one of the funniest evenings of my life.


	 kath    

    The one trend I've noticed with the females I hang around with is, that
    when the female asks a guy out, the relationship that could be - never
    is, but when they wait to be ask out by him, the relationship that
    could be sometimes happens... now this is a limited survey of about 6
    females...  anyone else notice this...  why would this constantly
    happen????

Maybe you're talking to the wrong females ;^)  I asked Mark out on our first
date 2.5 years ago.  If I hadn't, *maybe* he would have worked up the nerve
to ask me out, but maybe not.  Who knows?  Some guys just need a little jump
start.

Sue

>	 I quite often get the line "I didn't ask you out because I
>	 figured since you were so nice and pretty, that you would
>	 obviously be taken."
>
>	 Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing that line...what
>	 makes people think that just because you are pretty/nice/etc
>	 you will "obviously" be taken.?
    
    It's NOT a "line." Having suffered from female date related
    intimidation more than once, it is simply not a matter of feeding one a
    line. It is a very real feeling that men get that feels like (on
    various days) "SHE won't be interested in me," "A woman like that must
    have so many guys to pick from, it's not even worth the inevitable
    post-rejection depression," "What could she possibly see in me?"
    
    Obviously, having a positive self-image helps. But it did occur to me
    that many guys that exhibited what I termed a "false bravado" had a
    disproportionately large number of dates.
    
     The Doctah (now_back_to_the_dog_and_pony_show) :-(
    

    
    	Good question, but I can't offer any answers. I've been divorced
    	for 9 years, spent about a year and half looking to start a
    	new relationship without any luck, gave up on that. Since then,
    	I haven't been looking and nothing has happened either. So,
    	unless I'm really dense (might very well be) I guess for some
    	it's just meant to be and for others, oh well....
    
    	Wht the hey, life alone is still better than living with someone
    	you don't love.
    
    	G_B

>  <<< Note 828.29 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "The trigger doesn't pull the finger" >>>
    
>    It's NOT a "line."



	 Sorry Doctah...I didn't mean to imply THAT kind of
	 line...let's just say "Im sick and tired of hearing men say
	 that".......

	 Better?

	 :-)

	 kat
    

 Yeah- I guess that just bugs me because I was the type that got intimidated by 
attractive women (why should they care about me?) It is a valid concern and
is a self-esteem problem.

 The Doctah

        
    What irony, it's a wonder our species ever made it. All the women
    waiting to be asked and all the men not asking cause they figure it's
    been done before by someone more likely to be accepted. If it didn't
    cause so much pain in our lives it would be funny. Perhaps this is
    the real reason behind arranged marriages.

    I've retired from trying, I've been convinced,
    love can not be found.
    
    A man may not be picked, you see,
    like a doggie from the pound.
    
    What can I do, to make this known
    that I no longer care?

    Perhaps a sign about my neck
    "don't try, young man, don't dare".

    I will not talk of marriage,
    I dare not talk of love,

    And never mention caring
    Oh no, good lord above!

    For if he knows you like him,
    his love will surely fail,

    A whisper of a tender word
    his skin turns ashen pale.

    No man is an island unto himself
    but women they must be,

    For if it seems you have a need
    then he will always flee.

    So on alone I go, it's sad,
    no man to warm my side,

    For once the  need's admitted,
    the shame you can not hide.

    liesl
    

    Ok, guess I'd better do my part...
    
    Hey Liesl, how about a date?
    
    Hey Kathy, how about a date?
    
    See if you can fit me in your social schedule for May when I'm out
    there for the HR party!
    
    				Steve

    
>    Hey Kathy, how about a date?


	 You little Ham....you know you have a date with me any time
	 you want!  :-)

	 kath

    Both at once?
    
    Wow, what a mind-boggling experience that would be!
    
    -Jody
    

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                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 828.30      but if you try sometimes, you get what you need        30 of 30
AERIE::THOMPSON "tryin' real hard to adjust..."      16 lines  18-OCT-1989 13:12
                        -< people_or_process_problem ? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .27		>	why would this constantly happen????

    Well ... without knowing the specifics ...  Two things seem likely:
    (1) the guy who gets asked out goes in order to find out if he
        is truly interested ... and from a statistically small 6
        women ... perhaps there wasn't the right chemistry ...  or
    (2) most guys still have the old idea of them being in control
        of the dating process and somehow having lost the initiative
        at the beginning inhibited the chance to build interest/desire
        while anticipating asking her out for that first date ...

    Thus (1) implies the process can work if the people work together
    while (2) implies that most men haven't socially evolved enough
    yet for female initiative to be comfortable against male insecurity.

    ~--e--~  eagles_expect_asking_men_out_works_if_they_would_have_anyway


 Now, the question:

           <<< RAINBO::$2$DUA8:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V2.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 828.31      but if you try sometimes, you get what you need        31 of 39
MOSAIC::R_BROWN "We're from Brone III... "            7 lines  18-OCT-1989 13:26
                               -< A minor point >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Referencing 828.30:

   Small question, asked out of curiosity:  How does the old model of 
men asking women out imply that men are in control? From my viewpoint, 
the opposite is true.

                                                -Robert Brown III


   Question is asked out of curiosity, nothing more.

                                                 -Robert Brown III

    A reply from the UK!  This note caught my interest - I had the opposite
    problem I suppose!  I split up with my boyfriend of 3 years and promised
    myself "No more serious relationships for a while"!!  Three weeks
    later I met my current fiance (at a Digital "do"!).  I went out
    for a drink with him as "just friends" and although we started to
    see more of each other I kept him at arm's length saying to myself
    "You don't want this again so soon".
    
    Eventually I thought to myself "Who are you kidding?" and let my
    heart take control.  We're now engaged and getting married next
    year!  So I suppose you just can't control these things!!
    
    Sam
    
    (PS - excuse me for being terribly stupid - but what does SO stand
    for?  I know what it means, but not what it stands for!)

    Although I mostly pretend that it is "SomeOne" in order to pointedly
    refrain from mentioning a certain name:
    
    	"SomeOne did not mention that we were out of oregano."
    
    						Ann B.

    Robert,
    
    When the men ask the women out they are the ones to decide whether
    or not the other person is worth going out with. If it is taboo
    for the woman to ask, then she must sit quietly like a lady
    and wait for Prince charming to take charge and ask her out.
    
    I believe you are implying that women have power in this situation
    because the man is a 'sweaty palmed petitioner' (tongue in cheek here)
    that must wait on the lady's pleasure to accept or deny?
    
    If you are in the situation where you are never asked (as I usually
    was) as a woman, or in the situation where you ask but are always
    turned down (as is true of some men) then it is easy to look at
    the other side and see them as having the control.
    
    Bonnie

    <     <<< Note 828.37 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>
    <                  -< Or both at once!  I'm not shy! >-

    I think we need to make sure you have a heart checkup before hand.
    Then you'll probably need a note from your doctor to explain why
    you're too weak to return to work after your vacation. ;*} liesl

	 I dunno, Liesl......DougO seemed to have survived the night
	 out with the two of us......

	 I AM surprised he survived the entire weekend, tho.  :-)

	 kath

    Re .27, I've noticed the same thing.  In my own experience, it seems
    that whenever I've tried to initiate a date, the guy isn't interested.
    (Then some guy I never noticed existed will step out of the woodwork
    and ask me out.)  It's very frustrating, but I decided quite awhile
    ago that it just doesn't work for me to ask a guy out on a first
    date.  They're never interested.  (I also wonder if this correlates
    to something I've noticed in relationships where the men always
    seem to want to be the ones to initiate sex.)  It seems to me like
    women still have to wait around and try to look pretty and hope
    somebody half way decent will take an interest.  But, if nobody
    does take an interest, I'm not sure what to do next.
    
    I have one female friend who has told me several times that every
    single time she has ever asked a man to dance, she has been turned
    down.  This woman is quite pretty and always has men ask her to
    dance, and always has admirers.  But, she says that whenever she
    is out in a club and asks men to dance they have always said no.
     She's still in her 20's, too.
    
    The main problem in my life has always been finding *mutual*
    relationships.  Most of the time, the people I'm attracted to aren't
    interested in me, and usually the men who are the most attracted
    to me are men whom I like a lot as friends, but just aren't physically
    attracted to.  (I've lost two of my most valued friends because
    I couldn't fall in love with them.  I wanted a best friend and they
    wanted an SO.  Meanwhile, like I said, most men that I wanted to
    date couldn't be bothered with me.  It's just not fair.)
    
    Another thing that bothers me is that it seems to me that if a man
    falls in love with a woman who isn't interested in him at first,
    that it is possible for a man to woo a woman and change her mind
    about liking him.  But, if a woman falls in love with a man who
    isn't interested in her, it seems like there is *nothing* a woman
    can do to make a man change how he feels and fall in love with her.
     In fact, it seems to me that men just get annoyed if they keep
    hearing from a woman who likes them.  It seems to me that women
    are more susceptible to being eventually won over by a man who falls
    for them, than men are.  I also think that even when women aren't
    won over by men, they are kinder about rejecting would-be suiters
    than men are.  Some men can be very cruel to women they aren't
    attracted to, who have the audacity to ask them out.
    
    Lorna
      

>In my own experience, it seems
>    that whenever I've tried to initiate a date, the guy isn't interested.

 And you wonder why so many men need to see shrinks?

>It's very frustrating, but I decided quite awhile
>    ago that it just doesn't work for me to ask a guy out on a first
>    date.  They're never interested. 

 that's too bad. I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of men would be willing to
date a woman as good looking as you.

>(I also wonder if this correlates
>    to something I've noticed in relationships where the men always
>    seem to want to be the ones to initiate sex.)

 AHHHHHHHH!! (Sorry if I yelled.) This is NOT true. Believe it or not, some men
LOVE it when they don't _always_ have to initiate sex. When a woman initiates
sex, it says to me "she likes what we're doing; she's not just putting up with 
it." It makes you feel really good! Lorna, you really need to stay away from
these weirdos that don't like pretty, petite blonde women with a good sense of
self and sensuality. :-)

>    I have one female friend who has told me several times that every
>    single time she has ever asked a man to dance, she has been turned
>    down. 

 That's weird.

>Some men can be very cruel to women they aren't
>    attracted to, who have the audacity to ask them out.

 Some women are the same way. It's like "Who do _you_ think you are?"

 The Doctah

Lorna,

*really*????  I am stunned!  I thought men were just *dying* for women
to "make the first move", as it were.  In fact, every single man I have
ever dated, (the ones with whom I hav spoken about this with, which is
most) without exception has said that they would *love* for a woman to 
take some of the initiative, like the Doctah said.

It's strange to see people in here talking about asking someone out who
isn't at all interested, or falling in love/being infatuated with someone
who isn't interested.  I just can't imagine.  This has never happened to
me, not once!  And I *don't* think it's because I am so amazingly beautiful,
intelligent, witty and charming that no man would ever turn me down (although,
of course, I am... ;-)  ) - it is just that part of what attracts me to 
someone is that I sense that they are attracted to me.  In fact, I can't
imagine being even interested in someone in the first place without sensing
that they are interested in me.  And while I have fallen in love/infatuation
with men who didn't feel the same way about me, it has always been with men
with whom I was having a serious relationship of some kind; never with
someone who just plain wasn't interested.

It occurs to me that perhaps I am better able to sense people's attraction
to me than others are?  It's the only explanation I can come up with.  (Maybe
that is why it is so easy for me to say "Just ask him out", since rejection
of that type isn't a big fear for me.)

D!

    
    	Lorna,
    
    	If you think men can be cruel, let's get together sometime
    	after work (plan on atleast 5 or 6 hours) and I'll tell you
    	some of the ones I've heard from women. Now talk about CRUEL!!!
    
    	G_B

    "...some of the initiative,..."
        ^^^^
    
    There's the catch.  Yes, men would like women to take some of the
    initiative, but there are a lot of men who would be bothered by
    a woman who took the *first* initiative.  (In my current relationship,
    we were agreed that it was best that the first heavy-duty move was
    his, and on *his* turf.)
    
    This can be worked around.  In college, I announced to a group that
    included my target, that I was turning in a coupon for a ticket
    to "Barefoot in the Park", and suggested that anyone else in the
    group could do the same.  Later that day, Jim offered to turn in
    my coupon along with his.  So, we had our first date.  (National
    Merit Scholars may be nerds, but they are bright enough to spot
    an *O*P*P*O*R*T*U*N*I*T*Y* shoved under their noses.)
    
    So, I used my initiative to get him to use his initiative first.
    Right?
    
    							Ann B.  :-)

    Re .48, well, personally, I'd never want to join a club that would
    have me as a member, or whatever Groucho Marx said.  That's not
    really true.  I'm kidding. :-)
    
    Well, I'm amazed at people like yourself who always seem to be
    attracted to people who are attracted to them.  *sigh*  I think
    you're very lucky.  But, there are other people in my boat.  You've
    probably heard of the song "Love Stinks."  Whoever wrote that song
    had to have had a reason!
    
    Of course, if I am attracted to somebody and they reciprocate then
    I find myself becoming more attracted to them.  That's when it starts
    getting interesting. :-)  But, unfortunately, I have been attracted
    to people who weren't attracted me, and people have been attracted
    to me whom I wasn't attracted to.  The three most common scenarios
    have been:  1) I am attracted to a guy, he is not interested in
    having a serious relationship with me, but is interested in a casual
    fling ( I have mixed feelings about that-some men are worth a fling
    and some aren't!)  (2) I am attracted to the guy, but he isn't
    interested to know I exist or may just want to be a casual friend
    (3) a guy is attracted to me, I like him a lot as a friend but
    something about his appearance makes it impossible for me to imagine
    ever being physically intimate with him.  Of course, a very few
    times it's been mutual, thank goodness!
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna, the key is to sort thru enough people to get past the
    first three types and get to the 'thank goodness :-)' types.
    
    Diamond miners move a ton of rock to find one diamond, 'cause
    in the end it's worth the effort.
    
    Dana (with pick and shovel and a strong back :-) )

>    There's the catch.  Yes, men would like women to take some of the
>    initiative, but there are a lot of men who would be bothered by
>    a woman who took the *first* initiative. 

 I didn't realize that this was a problem. I don't think any of my friends
would be bothered by a woman making the first move. Well, maybe "hot and
bothered." :-)

 The Doctah

    re .53, when men say that they would like to have women make the
    first move, they mean that they would like to have *attractive*
    women (or women they consider to be attractive) make the first move.
     Most men act horrified if a woman they don't consider attractive
    makes the first move.  Just as men have gotten more used to dealing
    with rejection because they have traditionally been the ones to
    do the asking, women have gotten more used to having unattractive
    people ask them out and are more used to dealing with it gracefully.
     I think that if men want more women to start making the first move,
    then men are going to have to learn how to be nicer when they have
    to reject an unattractive suitor.
    
    Lorna
    

	 I doubt I would ever "make the first move" on a man that I
	 didn't already know was attracted to me......

	 But then, perhaps I have a knack for being able to read
	 someone else and know whether they would be receptive or not.

	 kath    

>     Most men act horrified if a woman they don't consider attractive
>    makes the first move. 

 I can believe this. Especially if the woman makes the first move when the guy
is in front of his friends. Gotta keep up that macho image, you know. Guys
can't stand facing ridicule for the women they see.

>     I think that if men want more women to start making the first move,
>    then men are going to have to learn how to be nicer when they have
>    to reject an unattractive suitor.

 I think you're right.

 I think in many cases, men aren't really prepared for having a woman make 
the first move. If she's attractive, the initial stumbling can be overcome
as a sense of pride takes over. But when the women does not pass the standards
test, the initial shock never is overcome, because the woman is given the
signal "offer denied" incompetantly and insensitively (especially in the
presence of other males). They'll learn.

 The Doctah

>     I think that if men want more women to start making the first move,
>    then men are going to have to learn how to be nicer when they have
>    to reject an unattractive suitor.



	 I think you are going to have bad apples in both bushels.  I
	 saw a nice, shy guy walk up to a woman a few weeks ago and
	 ask her to dance, she turned to him, checked him out, and
	 said "you've GOT to be kidding."

	 There are rude, unsensitive people on both sides of the
	 fence.....I've been rejected before, so what?  the way I look
	 at it, they are the ones missing out...not me.

	 k

	I have to agree with Lorna - about men reacting to women they
	see as "not attractive" - As most of u'll know I am not 
	intimidated by most people, so I will ask someone to dance,
	have lunch, go to dinner, etc without thinking about how to
	handle rejection if it comes.

	I don't handle rejection to well any more - mostly because
	I ignore it if I am really interested in getting to know the
	person (read: don't know that I have been rejected). This
	leads to interesting situations.


	I spent the first 30+ years of my life being rejected and hurt
	by people who could not deal with my expressing interest in them
	(the term that comes to mind is their "freaking out" over my
	brazen hussyness).  The other side is if a women initiates
	interest the man usually interrupts it into a "lets hop into
	bed right now" offer.

	_peggy


		(-)
		 |

			Not being able to sew does not
			equate to not being able to weave.

I'm a little confused - we are talking *physical* attractiveness here?  How 
can you not know if someone finds you physically attractive?  To me it always
seems quite obvious.  I think every man (possible every person) does a quick
"look-over" when you first meet someone (it's natural - especially if you
want to remember what the person looksl ike for future recognition.)  If
someone finds you attractive, it almos talways shows on their face for a
moment after that lookover.  Sometimes (most times, since most of the people
you run into aren't "seeking") the look is neutral - but if it's positive
or negative, how can you miss it?  And after that, it's always there in body
language.  If someone leans towards you when they talk, holds their arms wide
at their sides rather than in front of them, if they look at your face a lot,
they are probably attracted.

I consider myself attractive, but it is the type of attractive that doesn't
fit the "classical" image of attractiveness...so a lot of people who judge me
against the tradional "slim beauty" don't find me attractive - so I know
what "not attracted to" looks like on someone's face.  

Also I think we are talking about two things here.  When I say "asking a man
out" I mean literally that - someone you don't know, or know only as a friend,
asking him out on a date or activity which is clearly intended as a romantic
interlude.  "Making the first move", or "making a pass at someone" is when 
you are *already* on a date, or at least in a close, personal situation, it's
making the initiative in a sexual way.  I think by the time you get to the
point of "making a pass" it would be clear that he is either interested or not
interested.  (I have never understood why men can't tell when *I* am not
interested either!  I mean, if I sit at the opposite end of the couch, cross
my arms and legs tightly and avoid his gaze...what does he think it means??)

D!

    In general, you couldn't tell from my body language whether or not I
    found someone physically attractive.
    
    If I'm meeting someone in a social situation I try to have fairly
    positive body language, no matter what I think of the person.  In a
    work situation I try to be relatively neutral.  You'll notice that
    people who work a lot with customers (like sales or marketing folks)
    have a tendency to have very positive body language.  Its a learnable
    trait, and I spent a significant amount of time being keenly aware of
    my body language and changing it to meet some desired goal.
    
    People who are really under control can continue to project a very
    "interested" image even in the face of less-than-positive body language
    on the part of the other person.  I'm not that good, yet.
    
    This reminds me of a woman I indirectly work with.  Myself and a couple
    of other guys have noticed that she appears very, very flirtatious. 
    Not just in a kidding manner, either.  We couldn't figure her out,
    since she's happily married.  After watching and getting to know her,
    I've noticed that she has incredibly positive body language: leans very
    close to you when talking, looks directly in your eyes, arms to the
    side and slightly projected.  That's just her personality with
    *everyone* and doesn't seem to have any bearing on what she really
    thinks/feels.

re: Wildkat

>	 There are rude, unsensitive people on both sides of the
>	 fence.....I've been rejected before, so what?  the way I look
>	 at it, they are the ones missing out...not me.

 That sort of rationalization, no matter how true it really is, only keeps
one's self esteem going for so long.

 re: Peggy

>The other side is if a women initiates
>	interest the man usually interrupts it into a "lets hop into
>	bed right now" offer.

 Yeah. And if you do, then what? Nothing or nothing much is left to explore.
Inevitably the relationship turns out to be a flash in the pan.

 I think men still haven't overcome the conditioning that says that men ask
women out, and any woman who asks a man out must be sexually interested in him-
to the point of being "ready." Hopefully, this attitude will be replaced by a 
more healthy and equitable one as more women ask men out.

 The Doctah

    I find all this about asking a man out very interesting, but I don't
    think I could do it, not with someone I didn't know well anyway. I'm
    still too afraid of rejection after what happened in my marriage.
    Self esteem doesn't just flow back because you've left a bad
    situation.

    I'm fairly rowdy and outgoing with people I know and feel
    comfortable with but in a social situation (it's not so hard at
    work) new people can turn me into a wallflower with a look. Add to
    that the background fear that any unknown male may well be the enemy
    and strangers seem very threatening. Given some of the recent court
    decisions it might well be decided that date rape is OK if the woman
    asked the man out. After all, she was asking for it.

    There are times when it all seems hopeless. This dance of the sexes
    where I no longer understand the steps. Maybe that's why I find it
    so easy and comfortable to talk to men over the net. They are nice
    and safe, 2000 miles away. While you can still be rejected it's not
    so traumatic. liesl

    Liesl, from everything you've said I'd guess the right move for you
    would be in this direction.  The way you write I find it impossible to
    believe that the men of this community wouldn't positively fall all
    over themselves to date you were you but close enough!
    
    						=maggie

    The following response is from a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous at this time.

    						=maggie

    ===================================================================

    After reading the base note and the replies, I have decided to
    enter this note anonymously because I would rather keep some of my
    personal life out of  the notes world. Some of what I have read seems
    to be slams toward the  male population. I am a man and would like to
    indicate to you where I am at  this point in my life. Because I too
    share many of your feelings about wanting that special person (for me,
    a woman) in my life. Yet after 3 1/2 years of  being single again I
    have not found that person and even though I have been  looking.	I
    have dated a lot of women and have found all of them to be special  in
    many ways but for some reason nothing clicked to the point of wanting
    to  spend the rest of my life with them. 

    Over the years of dating I seem to have a  pattern of getting into
    unhealthy relationships. By that I mean the women are  usually
    emotionally unavailable, very fearful, no self esteem, etc. A few 
    months ago I started to look at the patterns, because I found myself in
    another one of these unhealthy relationships. 

    This woman had been sexually abused as a  child but over a period of 35
    years had never resolved the negative feelings  associated with sexual
    abuse by her step-grandfather.  Since this was the third or fourth
    of this type of relationship for me, I started thinking, why am I
    continually attracted to this type of woman?  Besides wanting to help
    the woman I was in the relationship with. In my  head and I have also
    felt in my heart, I want a relationship that is honest, open, giving,
    sharing of feelings, trusting, flexible, and in general without  all the
    negative things that I was getting out of the relationship I was in. 
    In my process of thinking thru all this and wanting to know more about
    sexual  abuse and its effects, I came across something in this notes
    file that struck  me full force. The sections that were most meaningful
    for me are reprinted  below. You can find the full text at note 202.30
    if you care to read the rest  of it. 

       "Regardless of when you became aware of the abusive part of her
       past, at some level of her being you have probably known all along. 
       You may not have known that you knew, but you knew.  This kind of
       knowledge is difficult to respond to because it is based on feelings
       and subtle intuition rather than factual information.
                                                               
       Part of our attraction to other people and/or situations is that we
       "sense" in them an opportunity to "finish" the learning and growth
       tasks we didn't finish at home with our parents.  We usually don't
       have words to describe this attraction, which may indicate that the
       process is not fully conscious.  It is nonetheless strong, however.
 
       An honest question might be "Why would I be drawn to someone who was
       abused as a child?" There is no simple answer to this question.
       There are several possibilities to explore.  Perhaps you, too, in
       some way experienced abuse when you were young, and you sensed,
       "Here is a person who will understand." It may be that you were not
       a victim, but that someone in your childhood was, i.e, your sister,
       a friend, even your mother.  Helping your wife through her abuse
       pain may be a way to make up for not being able to resolve the pain
       of that person in your childhood.  Another possibility is that as a
       child you may have been shy around women.  Part of your attraction
       to your spouse may have been that because of her abuse you sensed
       she wouldn't be threatening or domineering.
 
       The possible combinations of attractions are endless when you get
       down to specifics.  In general, however, the unfinished business
       people bring from their childhood plays an important part in how
       they pick a mate.  I urge you to be willing to explore your part in
       the attraction process."
	
    So how does all this fit together and what does it mean for me 
    and  the type of relationships I have been getting into?  It all
    fits for me, as a  child I was physically and emotionally abused by
    my step-father. My mother was  raped when she was 16. I was the
    second child of that man who I remember  nothing about. I was
    extremely shy as a boy. I would walk across the street to  avoid
    getting close to a girl.	So after being in therapy to deal with
    the abuse as a child, I have  chosen to go back into therapy to
    learn how to get into a relationship that I  want, as opposed to
    what I have been getting into.  So, in a lot of ways, I  have had
    little control over my attraction to women. Maybe others are like 
    that too.	

    And one other thing, I, and I`m sure a lot of other men feel the
    same  way, want the same things out of a relationship that you have
    indicated you  want. I share the same feelings of being lonely,
    wanting to share special  moments, needing someone when I am
    hurting, sharing laughter, having fun,  discovering new things about
    ourselves... and I could go on but I think you  get the message. So
    just be gentle with us, we are only human and and for the  most part
    aren't out to hurt anybody. We just haven`t learned all the skills 
    and as has been mentioned, some of you haven`t either. I have
    learned over the  years, that there are always good reasons for what
    I do. I also firmly believe  that each of us play a part in the
    attraction process. What part are you  playing?? Or are you going to
    continue looking out THERE somewhere for the  answer???????
 

    re:.46
    
    As I read this note, Lorna, I nodded and said to myself, "Yep,
    that's all well and true."  The problem is, if you switch the
    gender on all of the pronouns, you'll wind up with something
    that's equally true.
    
    Me? I don't get rejected/turned down very often. It's because I
    don't make many offers in the first place. I don't make many
    offers because of the rejections I'd gotten earlier in my life.
    
    As far as men only wanting attractive women to initiate things,
    well, yes, that's true. But isn't it true the other way around.
    Didn't you yourself say that it's the guys you aren't attracted
    to that ask you out? Don't you want it to be the men you are
    attracted to (i.e. "attractive men") to be the ones to ask you
    out?
    
    re:.63
    
    Sure thing, =maggie. Steve, if you need any help with Liesl and
    Kathy next May, just let me know... :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Re .65, Jerry, yes, of course, I want men I'm attracted to to ask
    me out, but I also added that I think that women have a lot more
    experience in how to nicely reject unattractive men who ask them
    out.  Most women have just come to accept the fact that a certain
    percentage (most?) of the men who ask them out are not especially
    attractive, whereas most men are not used to having women ask them
    out since it's a relatively new thing in our culture.  And, it just
    doesn't seem to occur to most men that if a woman does ask them
    out (when they say YES, YES, we want women to make the first move
    sometimes and take the burden off us!) that the woman who does finally
    step forward and ask them out may not be especially attractive.
    
    Re Peggy, I think you're absolutely right about the assumption that
    when a woman does ask a man out on a date it's because she's so
    hot to trot that she just couldn't wait any longer.  (Unfortunately,
    because it's still such a last resort effort for a woman to ask
    a man out, that may just be the case sometimes, too.  I mean, since
    it's so scary to ask a man on a date in the first place, you may
    only make the effort for the men you find really extra-attractive
    anyway, and therefore wouldn't mind hopping into bed with?)  Anyway,
    I think that men realize that when they ask a woman out that she
    might not be interested in sex (at least right away), but if the
    woman is so interested in them to have asked them out, they think
    the woman probably is interested in having sex.  
    
    Re .59, I think I'm terrible at reading body language.  I can't seem
    to decide what anything means so I never know what anybody thinks
    of me unless they come right out and tell me.  (At one recent noters
    party I was talking to one guy and began to get the impression that
    he found me repulsive, although I would certainly hope that wasn't
    the case.)
    
    Lorna
    
    

I love to be asked out and asked to dance!  It's so flattering!  Also,
it can be a burden having to initiate things all the time.  Most of
the time, it's OK to do but sometimes I'm just not in a assertive mood
and would rather lay back.  If you're shy and not self-confident it
can be really hard to ask people out.  As a recovering shy person, it
took a lot of practice to be able to ask for dates/dances, etc.
Luckily, most of the time, I can tell what the answer will be ahead
of time (at least with dates).  It would be nice in my opinion if
women were felt more free to inititiate things sometimes.

It's funny how much pressure I can put upon myself in these
situations.  I can absolutely convince myself that my whole ego
(self-worth) is on the line depending upon the answer.  I find this
tragic but amusing!  ;-)  Usually, I like to get to know people first
by actually talking to them before asking them out!  A radical
concept!  Also, I find it helpful to keep things low-key in the
getting to know stage by going to lunch together or just meeting for
coffee, etc and not put so much pressure on things to get into the
accept/reject mode of thinking.  You can't ever have too many friends
even if your relationship will not go "beyond" that.  And isn't it
wonderful to meet so many different and interesting people!  I wonder
if this whole process would be easier if we would think less in terms
of getting our own needs met and more in terms of getting to know
people for the sake of getting to know other people.  Always these
self-images, goals, desires, and needs seem to put alot pressure on things...

john

    Re .67, I agree with what you say about the value of having a lot
    of friends and that it's interesting to meet a variety of different
    people without any pressures or expectations.  My only complaints
    with that attitude is that I've initiated getting together with
    men with that exact attitude and been rejected!!  In that case,
    I almost felt it was more insulting.  I felt as though this person
    not only is not interested in dating me, this person isn't even
    interested in being my *friend*!  This person feels that my friendship
    can add nothing to their life.  (Then of course, your self-confidence
    takes over and you say to yourself "F**k him!  He's probably a shallow
    waste of a human being anyway!") :-)  I can never understand people
    who seem to have no interest whatsoever in meeting new people as
    friends, who seem to feel that they now have all the friends they
    are ever going to possibly need in their entire life.
    
    Lorna
    

I suppose this is a friendship tangent, but I put a lot of energy and caring
into my friendships, and find I can't just take on 5 extra any-old-time.
	Mez

    Re .70, well, from your note, Steve, I'd say it's you who can't
    tolerate people who don't own guns, and not vice versa.  You're
    the one who has a rule that you won't be friends with someone who
    doesn't have guns.  I have no rule in my life which prevents *me*
    from being friends with gun owners.  I don't expect to agree with
    any of my friends on everything.
    
    Lorna
    
    
 

<   I have
<    learned over the  years, that there are always good reasons for what
<    I do. I also firmly believe  that each of us play a part in the
<    attraction process. What part are you  playing?? Or are you going to
<    continue looking out THERE somewhere for the  answer???????
 
    I'm guessing this last was aimed at me so I'll answer it. I can only
    say after reading all the replies that perhaps I'm still not ready
    yet. I don't know, I've not had the chance to find out.

    I am well aware of my own short commings. The litany of my personal
    failures repeats itself quite frequently in my brain. My own private
    lists of "what I am not" and "what I should be" are quite long
    enough for a lifetime of improvement. liesl

    re: .70, .71, .72
    
    once upon a time, i was extremely turned off by users of nicotine
    products.  if a woman asked me to dance, i might to be polite, but
    my body language and/or conversation would be negative.
    
    since then i have grown up, and realized that nicotine addicts are
    people also, some of them pretty damn interesting.  (hopefully) there
    is no single issue that could make me walk away from a person now.
    
    

    I can usually tell when a woman is attracted to me, because it happens
    so infrequently.  Extremely rare events usually call attention to
    themselves, after all.  I believe am due for a woman to find me
    attractive some time in late 1990 or early 1991.  I am currently doing
    an analysis of the past instances when women found me attractive (all 7
    of them), hoping to correlate them with something like the phases of
    the moon or the appearance of a comet.  This will allow me to make a
    science out of the prediction of future such events.  If I can just
    narrow it down to the exact day, I would be able to plan my life
    accordingly.

    For example, if I knew that no woman would be attracted to me until July
    13, 1992, then until that day I could simply dispose of any efforts
    associated with trying to attract women, such as washing my hair or
    brushing my teeth.  Sure, it would gross out my friends and coworkers,
    but the benefit is that the time I would save by eschewing such
    activities could be devoted to nobler activities like solving the
    Mideast crisis.  Then, once July 13, 1992 rolled around, I could then
    make myself presentable again, and just wait for the magic instant
    to occur some time on that day.

    One millisecond later, after the woman has come to her senses and the
    moment of attraction ends, I could then go back to solving the Mideast
    crisis until the next such even in, say, 1996.

    -- Mike

    re: .76
    
    i would continue brushing my teeth for health reasons (keep your real
    teeth as long as you can, so they say), but imagine all the money you
    would save by skipping the shampoo/conditioner, anti-perspirant/
    deoderant, and other beauty maintenance related costs.
    
    why, you could even save up enough to take that special someone out to
    a nice dinner for that magical moment, and still have enough left over
    to send a telegram to the president detailing your solutions for all of
    his headaches!
    

 Yes- it's true, Mike V and I have agreed for a second time! Let us hope that 
this does not become a habit. :-)

>    I can usually tell when a woman is attracted to me, because it happens
>    so infrequently.  Extremely rare events usually call attention to
>    themselves, after all. 

 Complete and total agreement. (Who said it couldn't be done?)

>I am currently doing
>    an analysis of the past instances when women found me attractive (all 7
>    of them), hoping to correlate them with something like the phases of
>    the moon or the appearance of a comet. 

 Well, I would have said "both of them," but other than that, you're right on.
:-) 

 As I have fooled someone sufficiently long to sign on the dotted line, said
correlation has been put on the back burner, possibly to be done as I write
my memoirs. :-) (Assuming, of course, that the fish aren't biting. :-)

 The Doctah

    Well, since we both like "The Story in Your Eyes" by the Moody Blues,
    that actually makes three things we agree on.  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    
    >>> I can usually tell when a woman is attracted to me, because it happens
    >>> so infrequently.  
    
    Just a personal observation, but Mikey-bashing (read "self") is not
    cool!
    
    :-)
    
    Carol
    

RE:  <<< Note 828.68 by DZIGN::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds" >>>

>    people without any pressures or expectations.  My only complaints
>    with that attitude is that I've initiated getting together with
>    men with that exact attitude and been rejected!!  In that case,
>    I almost felt it was more insulting.  I felt as though this person

Sorry to hear that.  Definitely their loss!!!

john

    
    re .68,69
    
    I have to echo Mez, The number of friends I have now is relatively
    high, and its taking ALL my energy to be a friend to them, on top of
    the billion other things I do. Adding new ones, unless they are
    exceptionally high caliber people like Nancy, is definitely at the
    bottom of my priority list.
    
    Moreover, I am more likely right now to accept a woman friend than a
    male one... too many complications in an already complicated life.
    I have 7 males who enjoy the label friend. I could wish for some pals,
    but my life has limited pal'ing around time. I'm sticking with what I
    have.
    
    In addition, I have met men who are sick and tired of having women
    friends. They, too, have all the women friends they could want. And in
    some ways, a new woman making an overture of friendship is just a
    rejection of romance in disguise to them.  I've thought about this when my
    offer of friendship was rejected... and I try to respect it, especially
    since their deduction is often partially true.
    
    (I expect my dream man to walk on water, and part it in his sleep. Plus
    be gorgeous and have only eyes for me. That's why he's called a DREAM
    man!)

    As far as the zen of meeting men....an update from me.  (You should
    see my face this morning - the grin goes from one ear to the other.)
    
    Possibly the answer is to put a 'grump' note here.  Since I did that, 
    my square dance caller has introduced me to a new partner who turns 
    out not only to be a terrific dancer, but to share about 90% of my 
    other interests as well.  And be good looking and out-going and fun 
    and all that other important stuff.  Then I get into work this morning
    (after staying out until 1 last night) and there's e-mail from a
    man that I answered a question for in another notes file - and he
    sounds interesting too.
    
    Alison

    wonderful Alison! :-)

    
    There's no excuse for you, Doctah, being in the midst of
    perhaps the world's greatest concentration of beautiful,
    talented, exquistitely turned out females (some with 
    running shoes to go with their success dress)!
    
    Nor you Mike, in the Mile-High State amidst hard-muscled
    clear eyed Mountain Women running up Pikes Peak...
    
    For shame, you guys, to complain without seeing what blessings
    you have compared with Northern Calif. with its bare sprinkling
    of single women, an abode fit for the devoutest of Jesuits!
                                                   

>    There's no excuse for you, Doctah, being in the midst of
>    perhaps the world's greatest concentration of beautiful,
>    talented, exquistitely turned out females (some with 
>    running shoes to go with their success dress)!

>    For shame, you guys, to complain without seeing what blessings
>    you have compared with Northern Calif. with its bare sprinkling
>    of single women, an abode fit for the devoutest of Jesuits!

 Bob, if this is it; if this is the "promised land" (as it were), we've been
lied to. :-) Either that, or somebody's doing some serious hoarding. :-)

 As I look around, I can only think "This ain't the place." ;^)

 The Doctah