Conference turris::womannotes-v2

Personal thought - maybe they need to try on so many different things to just
get something to fit they get pissed, and get sloppy.

I know I get pissed.
	Mez

With respect to public restrooms, I'd love to hang a sign

       (warning, indelicate phrasing follows).















       Ladies:  If the man in your life left the toilet
		seat in your home, in the same condition
		you just left this one,
		WOULD HE LIVE UNTIL MORNING???

    Perhaps it's because women have to pick up after themselves and
    their husbands and kids so much that it's a treat for them to 
    leave it to someone else when shopping.  Certainly if I were paying
    $500 to $1000 for an outfit, I would expect that someone could hang
    up what I'm trying on in the store.  However, leaving dirty tissues,
    etc., is really being a slob.  Maybe if the store provided the proper
    trash recepticle, folks would use it.  I have yet to see a trash
    bin in a dressing room.
    
    Sue
    

	I think changing rooms should have 

		o a bench or stool in each booth
		o PLENTY of hooks for hanging things, that
		  are at any easy level to reach!
		o Individual mirrors
		o Small rubbish containers

	I know when I'm trying mega-things on, and things are
	not working well (Ie, not fitting right, no place to hang
	them back up, not enough hooks to hang the ones I already
	tried on, apart from the ones I haven't, and the ones
	that I don't like)  that I end up getting very frustrated and
	about the only thing I want to do is get out of there.

					/Robin

    I always assumed it was roving gangs of teenage girls who left all
    those messes in dressing rooms and ladies rooms!  (Teenagers make
    such an easy target!:-) )
    
    I don't know who does it but it isn't me.  I always dutifully hang
    the stuff back up and I don't leave trash around.  Once one of my
    "girlfriends" and I were trying to figure out what kind of females
    use public toilets for what might, for lack of a better term, be
    called #2, and then don't flush.  We decided that maybe there's
    some sort of little known organization that goes around the country
    from one public restroom to another dirtying the toilets and not
    flushing! :-)  Perhaps it's their hobby, and they get some sort
    of horrible satisfaction out of knowing they will bring dismay and
    repulsion to others.  :-)
    
    Maybe .3, is right and the women are thinking, Aha! For once I *leave*
    the mess instead of cleaning it up!  But, I'd be disgusted, too,
    Pat.  It's not fair for you to have to clean up after a bunch of
    pigs when you work in a nice store like that.
    
    Maybe the clothes are left lying around by women who are pissed
    that they can't afford them.  But, it's definitely a disgrace that
    some women act like such slobs.
    
    Lorna
    

    Me, neither, Lorna - but still, *someone* makes these messes!
    
    I hate shopping for clothing anyhow, but I always hang the clothes I've
    tried on back on the racks in the same place I found them, and pick up
    any pins, pieces of cardboard, or tags that fell off what I was trying
    on and put them in the trash, including any such debris that was
    already in the dressing room stall when I got there (of course, if
    there was a real big mess already, I use a different cubicle - I'm not
    the cleaning crew, either, but I don't see why I should make their job
    harder by my own actions.)  It would help us if each cubicle had a little
    trash can, although that doesn't seem to matter to slobs!
    
    Must be the same people who drop dirty paper towels all over the
    ladies' room here at work...  Which has two trash cans, plus the little
    one in each stall.
    
    /Charlotte

    Also, could it be related to the fact that there are usually more women
    packed into dressing rooms?  
    
    More customers = more mess.  More crowded customers and more frustrated
    customers who "can't find anything that looks good" (The Horror of
    Bathing Suit Shopping ... !)
    
    Men don't have to bother trying things on as much because the range of
    styles is narrower and the sizes are more standard.  No surprises, no
    crowding, no frustration...no mess.  No acting out anger.
    
    I agree sometimes the nicest stores can have changing rooms that look
    awful.  I confess I'm one of the people who leaves the clothes
    (buttoned and right side up) hanging on a hook in the room, *IF* the
    store doesn't provide a person at the door and/or a rack to put
    discarded clothes on.  Sorry!  I don't think that I should have to put
    discarded stuff back on the rack if I'm the customer.
    
    Bathrooms can be revolting.  I always report it to someone if I find
    something horrible, and I always feel sorry for the person who has to
    clean it.  Yuck. 
    Pam

>Sorry!  I don't think that I should have to put
>    discarded stuff back on the rack if I'm the customer.

 I dislike this attitude. It says to me "It is beneath me to return the things
I do not wish to buy to where I found them." Did you ever wonder why sometimes
you can't find something in your size when it's in every other size? Perhaps
because someone couldn't be bothered with the triviality of returning the
item to the place where it was found. Maybe it's still in the store, but left
on another rack or all balled up on the dressing room floor (not implying you
do this.)

 I was always taught to put things back where I got them. Even if you ARE the
customer.  

 The Doctah

    
    I didn't mean that people paid $500 to $1000 per outfit, but per
    shopping trip, that isn't hard to do. 
    
    Why take it out on the store if you don't look good, or that you
    need a size 14 instead of a size 10. One of the reasons things are
    so expensive is beacuse all the extra costs are just passed on to
    the consumer. Three years ago, we employees were complaining about
    the condition of the rest rooms and the General Manager told us
    that during the previous year they had spent 20k on rest room repairs
    in our store alone. Multiply this times 26, that's how many stores
    we have, and now you are talking a lot of money.
    
    I wouldn't mind finding things hanging on the hooks in the fitting
    rooms, it's the the stuff on the floor that really gets me.
    
    Actually, men have more sizes in things like shirts, they have neck
    sizes and sleeve lenghts, it's just that they are more standard.
    
    If women bought what fit them properly instead of the size they
    want to be, maybe the manufacturers would stop changing the womens
    sizes so much. I have had customers come out of the fitting room
    and throw the garments at me because they can't fit into the size
    they want. IT'S NOT MY FAULT.
    
    

    Re .8:  putting discarded stuff back on the rack.
    
    I guess the analogy in my mind is that if I go to dinner in a sit-down
    restaurant, I don't think I should be expected to bus my own table. 
    It's a commercial operation:  food is their business.  Therefore I
    don't see why I should return clothes to the racks in a large retail
    operation:  selling clothes is their business.  (I'm talking about
    stores like Bloomingdales or Jordan Marsh -- frequently there's nobody
    in their changing rooms.  Smaller stores like Cherry Webb & Touraine
    keep a tighter control.) 
    
    Conversely, if I go to dinner in someone else's house (depending on the
    person), I will help clear the table.  And if I try on clothes in a
    small boutique, I usually will put the stuff back.
    
    Re .9:  You're right -- it's wrong and it's not fair to you.  You *did*
    start this topic with a "Why....", though!
    
    Pam

    A lot of stores I shop at don't WANT you putting the stuff back on
    the rack; they just want you to return it to the attendant so she
    can put it back where it belongs, not where you think you got it.  
    
    I learned this after trying on a nice piece of clothing on an
    "Everything on this rack 20% off" rack.  The clerk recognized it
    as something that wasn't supposed to be on the sale rack, but
    since someone had put it there and I'd made my decision in good
    faith, she gave me the discount and the plea to let them hang the
    clothes back up.
    
    --bonnie

 Some places have a place where unwanted clothes may be left in lieu of 
returning them to the rack. Obviously, in such a place, not returning clothes
to the rack is reasonable and acceptable, as they have made provisions for such.
When said provisions do not exist, the most reasonable thing to do is to
replace the clothes. As previously stated, those that leave clothes hung up 
in the dressing rooms are not the problem. The problem is clothes balled up on 
the floor, trash and other messy things that would disgust you if you walked
into it.

 re: the analogy

 I agree with the analogy about the sit down restaurant, but with reservations.
The sit down restaurant makes provisions to bus your table. As far as I'm
concerned, busing your table or returning things to the rack are orthogonal
to the cost of either. It matters whether other provisions are made or not.

 The Doctah

    re: pam's comments on putting clothes back..
    
    Maybe you don't think to put them back because so many places scream
    at you if you go to do it!  I always 'try' to put them back, but am
    often stopped and told...if you don't want them, hang them here, or
    throw them there, or what ever.  Maybe you've heard it so much you
    just leave if, assuming the store will hang it up. 
    
    Yes, better equipped rooms might help.  I HATE it when there is
    only one hook, and I've got 3 garments to try on plus the clothes
    i'm taking off!  And a trash can would be nice, though I think
    not tagging the merchandise in such a way that it has to be 
    removed before it can be tried on would make more sense!  
    
    And, I do agree that more women shop, try on the clothes, and
    therefore create a more 'used' facility which implies it will
    get messier than the men's dressing rooms.  
    
    But, as for the why---that's easy....people just don't care
    ...about alot of things.   about cleanliness in the johns, service
    at the counter, smiling and saying have a nice day, counting out
    the change, signalling for a turn, saying excuse me....and on and on...
    
    just my 2 cents...
    
    deb
    

RE:  .10                    <<< Note 761.10 by HIGHFI::FOCUS_PERS >>>

  .
  .
  .

    Steve (still banished from home node HANDY)

Steve, if you clean up your files, I'll give your your account and
real name back.

Signed,
OMNIPOTENT SYSTEM MOM

;-) ;-) ;-)

    re: .15
    
    Hrrmmph!  What can I as a mature, sophisticated gentleman reply
    to that but. . .
    
    . . .aw geez, Ma!  Do I hafta??
    
    Steve

    Re. .11
    I started this note out of frustration, because after 12 years of
    putting up with slobs, last night was the straw that broke the camels
    back. Most of what I have been hearing is excuses. The focus has
    been on the fitting room, but what about the womans rest room. 
    There are 3,(note 3) waste paper containers in there, not all full
    and there is still trash all over the floor. Right here in Digital,
    there is always trash on the floor, unflushed toilets, spilled makeup
    all over the sink, and hair all over everything.
                  
    Believe me, if we put wastebaskets in every fitting room, 6 hooks in
    each room and a rack by the door, the place would still look like a 
    pig sty. Department stores are not like resturants, we do not wait
    on you nor should we be expected to clean up after you.  We are
    there to service you but not serve you.
    
    
    

    re: women's bathrooms
    
    I wasn't aware there were any women's clothing stores left that
    had restrooms available to the public!
    
    Otherwise, I've noticed a lot of inconsistency in this area.  
    
    You say the Digital bathrooms are a mess.  But except for
    occasional unflushed toilets (which are easily dealt with -- just
    push the handle) the bathrooms here at Spit Brook Road stay pretty
    clean.  The faucets leak, but we all try to keep the mess mopped
    up as best we can.  Sometimes there's a makeup spill in the sink,
    but the next user usually mops it up. Certainly there's not always
    a mess. 
    
    The restaurants I visit regularly have the same split.  One is
    constantly messy, so messy I won't go there unless I really have
    to, and another that has an identical clientele, similar prices,
    and similar location is always clean.  Others fall in quite a
    range, and it's not directly connected to the prices on the menu,
    either.
    
    So whatever the reasons are for the mess, I don't think they're as
    simple as "all women are slobs."  
    
    --bonnie

    I'm one of those people who leave the clothes right there in the 
    dressing room, unless there's a rack right outside the dressing room
    set aside for this unwanted clothes. I see no wrong leaving the clothes
    hanging in dressing room, someone gets paid to move them and its not
    me. (Sorry, Pat. :-))  I won't leave them on the floor, nor would I
    leave them all crumpled. But you definitely won't see me running to the
    opposite end of the store to replace the clothes. 

    Shopping can be pleasurable, especially when there is great customer
    service.  I consider having someone take the clothes back to the rack
    part of customer service.  That's what I pay for when I buy a pin for
    $5 at Neiman Marcus as opposed to the very same pin at Tello's for
    $.05.  

    Pat,
    
    I wonder about the age of the women who are shopping in your
    stores. The kind of thing that you describe could be the
    result of teenagers who think this is 'cool' or 'funny'
    behavior.
    
    and this is not a general slam on teens, just my observations
    are that some young people are apt to act like this.
    
    Bonnie (who have five teens, and sincerly hopes none of them would)

    It seems like every time I go into a public bathroom lately, someone
    has peed all over the seat.
    
    It's really ludicrous - women are trying so hard not to actually *sit*
    on the seats, that they basically end up spraying the seat and
    sometimes part of the stall.
    
    It would be much more hygenic if we could all agree just to kind of
    perch on the seat so that just the backs of your legs touch the seat.
    You couldn't catch much that way!  And we would all be much better
    protected from germs.  What's supposed to end up inside would end up
    inside, and not all over the seat and stall.
    
    Ugh.

    Re .20, don't you mean $50.00 at Neiman Marcus and $5.00 at Tello's?
    :-)  I've never seen *anything* at Neiman Marcus for $5.00!
    
    I sympathize with Pat.  I don't think we need to treat sales
    people like maids.  If we took the effort to carry the clothes to
    the dressing room, we can take the effort to carry them back to
    the racks and hang them up again, IMO.

    Lorna
    

The women's rooms here in BXB aren't particularly grotesque either. So, either
I'm less sensitive than Pat, we've got fewer women here, or ... something else.
	Mez

    The following refers only to a limited number of stores in the
    Nashua area:
    
    When I accompany Neil on shopping expeditions to either of two
    men's stores downtown, I notice that the problem seldom arises
    because the clerk is right there offering advice, etc., and
    generally meets him at the fitting room door to take the hanger
    from him and return the clothing to wherever it belongs. 
    Frequently the clerk will make several trips between fitting room
    and rack for a garment in a different size, a different color.  
    (And those of you who know Neil know we aren't talking a
    high-ticket wardrobe here.)
    
    It's rare to get service like that at a women's clothing store,
    and I'm willing to pay mucho extra $$$ at those few places I know
    of that help you out.  For instance, there's a wonderful maternity
    store in the TJ Maxx plaza whose clerks spent a full 20 minutes
    making sure I got the right maternity bra earlier this summer. 
    Too bad I won't need maternity clothes for much longer!
    
    I wouldn't expect the same kind of service at TJ Maxx, which is a 
    bargain place, whether for the men's or the women's clothing.  The 
    procedure at most of the mass-market stores around here is that
    you show the garments you want to try on to the attendant at the
    door.  She counts them and gives you a tag with the number on it. 
    You try on the clothes, decide what you want, and return to the
    desk.  The attendant counts the clothes to make sure you've
    returned them all, asks you if you want any of them, and hangs the
    rest on a rack near her, where one of the other clerks will return
    them to the display racks later.  There's no question of leaving
    the clothes in the stall, 'cause if you don't have the right
    number of items in your hand, you don't get out.  This is true of
    both men's and women's departments in such stores.
    
    Somehow returning clothing all the way to the display racks, as
    opposed to the collection rack, strikes me as an example of how
    women are trained to EXPECT to clean up after themselves as well
    as everyone else, and to not expect the kind of service their
    money entitles them to.  If I've tried on the store's clothing and
    found it unacceptable, it's only courteous to return it to an
    appropriate place in good condition.  But if I'm going to hang
    clothing on the display racks, the store can pay ME for working
    for them. 
    
    --bonnie

    
    At TJMaxx I would expect to meet a 50's group doing 
     
         "...dib dib dib dib
             dib dib dib dib
             T J, Maxxx,...."

    re: .22
    
    I have a song I've been meaning to send to Ann Landers forever.  I
    *think* it's original, but if you've heard it before, let me know.
    
              **To the tune of "If you're happy and you know it, clap your
              hands**
    
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle, wipe the seat.
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle, wipe the seat.
    
    	If you're messy when you pee, please do one thing
    	for me. . .
    
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle, wipe the seat!
    
    
    
    	Seriously, though, if men made as much mess in private homes as
    women do in rest rooms, there'd be endless loud complaints!
    
    Briana

    	In my experience, the condition of a restroom is more a function
    	of how often it's cleaned than the inherent cleanliness of its
    	users.
    
    	The restrooms at the facility where I work are *always* in great
    	condition (to the best of my recollection.)
    
    	However, if I have to use a restroom when I'm out shopping, I
    	usually take a sidetrip back to my house to use my own facilities
    	(rather than use store bathrooms.)  I'd rather make the extra trip
    	home in the middle of my shopping excursion than face the kinds
    	of conditions that most store restrooms offer (no insult meant to
    	those who work in stores.)
    
    	Restaurant restrooms are usually much cleaner, but I don't often
    	have the assertiveness that it would take for me to go into an
    	eating establishment for the sole purpose of using their bathroom
    	(unless it's an emergency.)  :)
    
    	I don't think it's fair to be making the kinds of generalizations
    	I've seen about women in this note (based on conditions of public
    	restrooms.)  As someone else mentioned, once the bathroom is seen
    	to be dirty, people tend to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid
    	making contact with the surfaces that one encounters in a restroom,
    	so the level of uncleanliness tends to rise exponentially once it
    	gets past a certain point.
    
    	Let's not beat ourselves up here because some restrooms don't
    	happen to get cleaned as often as others.

    Re .28
    
    I once was faced with the problem of trying to find a toilet I could
    use.  There was a train station (ugh) and a nice bookstore which
    served food.  The bookstore would only let you use the can if you
    were eating food.  So, we put our names on the waiting list for
    tables (there was a fifteen minute wait), did the business, and
    went to catch our train.
    
    Robbie 

    re .10 Steve and shirt sizes
    
    I went shopping a couple of weeks ago.  The size 3 dress was HUGE on
    me, but I couldn't get the size 9 jeans on.  To get the jeans on I
    would have had to move to a 13, not an 11.  The dress, I took in (darts
    can be useful) ...
    

RE: .22

	I agree with you.  I think that it's disgusting to find a toilet
	seat all wet, but it's especially bad when there are "seaties"
	available (and obviously not being used).

	About 10 years ago in the stalls of the ladies room for the computer
	department where I was working somebody posted the following verse, 
	which I feel should be in all public restrooms:

		If you sprinkle 
		when you tinkle,
		please be neat
		and clean the seat.

    	A couple of years ago, my oldest daughter did some needlepoint
    	for my mom for Christmas.
    
    	Her version was:
    
    		If you sprinkle when you tinkle
    		Be a sweetie, wipe the seatie
    
    	I can hear my mom laughing now when she got that one.
    
    	Scott

    re .10 and .30:
    
    I read once that manufacturers, if asked to fill a large order--say for
    size 12 dresses--but who don't have size 12 right at hand will stick
    size 12 labels on size 10's and size 14's and I think this really makes
    sense (for them).
                    
    Also, it used to be said that the more expensive the clothes, the
    larger a certain size would be.  I can imagine a savvy boutique
    ordering all their size 10's to be put on size 12 dresses, and so on.

    re..21
    
    Sorry Bonnie, but the average age in my department is 35+. We probably
    get 1 or 2 teenagers a week, the size range is 16+.
    
    I want to thank everyone for letting me vent, it has been building
    up for a long time. Your feed back has been very interesting and
    not surprising.  I do have quite a few Digital women customers,
    some of them are in this notes file.  
    
    I don't recall saying that all women are slobs, but it only takes
    2 or 3 to make a mess. 
    
    For those of you who have never worked retail, let me give you a
    brief overview of what my responsibilites are. Obviously, service
    the customer, recieve and hang new stock, rotate stock and do
    markdowns. There is a drastic shortage of help, and there have been
    many nights when I have had the responsibility of 3 or 4 departments,
    which is about 1/4 of the first floor. On those nights, I also have
    to watch for theft, an ever increasing problem in retail.
    
    I work 3 hours a night, and there really isn,t much time to play
    personal maid.  Any of you out there that have shopped in my
    department, know that I always give service with a smile, I am more
    that willing to go out of my way for my customers. I really enjoy
    most people, and I am working this job because I need the money,
    but I don't need the grief that I some times get.

    Ah, I wish Nordstrom's had a store in Massachusetts!  (They just
    opened one in Richmond, VA and more are  coming east from Seattle.)
    Nordstrom's is one of the few stores where:
    
    	You can find a sales person
    	The sales person is *well* trained about clothes and fashion
    	The dressing rooms are large enough 
    	There are adequate mirrors
    	There is a wide range of fashion, from couture to everyday clothes
    
    If a store treats its customers well, the customers will return.
    If the customers are treated with indifference, like an inconvenience
    (a clerk's conversation with his/her date is more important than
    the customer at the counter...the clerk knows nothing about style,
    fit or fashion...), then the customer will go elsewhere.
    
    I've started going to the smaller boutiques because I'm fed up with
    the lack of service in the large department stores.  (Not to mention
    the racks of clothes jamming the floor, making it impossible to
    see the merchandise!)  Catalog shopping is a welcome alternative
    too...no problems with returns, and the operators are familiar with
    the merchandise.
    
    Judi
    

    I'll ditto what Bob said. I worked at two different Friendly
    Ice Cream shops for seven years total before I started at DEC.
    For a good part of that time, I opened the shops in the morning,
    and as part of my duty, I made sure that the restrooms were
    clean. The women's room was always far messier than the men's
    room. Like Bob, no judgement, just observation.
    
    --- jerry

    	RE: .36, .37
    
    	Well, obviously, your experiences differ from mine, so I guess
    	we'll have to leave it at that.
    

    I have no experience whatsoever of Men's rooms, as I have never
    had any opportunity for going into one of them, so feel I can't
    adequately judge who's sloppier, the male or the female of the species.
    
    However, I do have some related thoughts:
    
    - If women were sloppier then men outside the house, when would
      this begin: when girls start to wear make-up, for instance?
      I have two daughters, 15 and 9. They have frequently invited girl-
      friends at home and regularly, though less frequently, invited
      boy-friends over. I have never yet had to clean up after any of
      the girls came, but I have found boys so incredibly dirty - until
      and including about age 14 - that I now ALWAYS check the toilets
      for cleanliness after boys have visited.
    
      Please note that this is based on my own experience in my own
      home, and considering the fact we get a 80% girl / 20% boy visi-
      ting rate (and don't tell me my girls prefer boys who are slobs...).
                
    - Why would men be neater outside the house and sloppier at home,
      and the contrary be true for women? I do think that the noter
      who said women spend a lot of time cleaning up at home, and con-
      versely feel no great compulsion to clean up outside does have
      a point!
     
    - My experience of women's rooms is that they're always clean in
      some places (like in the DEC facility in work in, or the Geneva
      airport) and always dirty in other places (like a nearby very large 
      store I do most of my shopping in, or the Geneva train station).
      My guess is the men's toilets in the train station would be
      pretty dirty, too...
                                                                         
    Joana

    I think women's rooms are messier than men's rooms simply because
    they are used more often.   For one thing, it seems that many women
    have to go to the bathroom more often than many men.  For another
    thing, messiness associated with periods isn't  a factor in men's
    rooms.  And, finally, more women go the women's room simply to check
    how they look, fix their hair, and make-up, etc.  (They do this
    because they know how important it is for women to look good in
    our society which has been discussed before in notes.)
    
    Another aspect is that many teenage girls tend to be very messy.
     They do seem to go to the restroom in groups and they do seem to
    use a lot of make-up, etc.  Teenagers also don't tend to be as aware
    of cleaning up after themselves as adults because they haven't lived
    on their own yet.
    
    Another factor that may cause women's rooms to be used more often
    is that it's usually the mother's who wind up taking little kids
    and babies to public restrooms.  Little kids can be very messy -
    not flushing, or wiping the seat.  If the mother doesn't check how
    does she know.  Changing babies in women's rooms would also result
    in dirty pampers being in the trash.  (To say nothing of dirty sanitary
    napkins.)
    
    Going to the restroom is a more involved process for women than
    men (in general).  We go in groups, we bring kids, and babies, we
    have our periods, we change up, do our hair, redo our make-up. 
    All men do is walk in, take a leak, and leave.  No wonder our rooms
    get more messy.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
      Well I would hate to think that all woman are slobs, I know that
    I am one of those woman that put things where they belong in stores,
    and when in a restroom I go in there do my bussiness, flush, wash
    my hands and despose of my paper towels, and any others that may
    be lying around. but I have to say that I have often had the same
    thought as the base noter, I know that the bathroom in the Dec plant
    i work in is gross, napkins, unflussed toilets, ect.
    
    And also from my old part time job of cleaning a bank every night
    which i quit because i refuse to be a maid for such slobs.
    
    It was a very nice bank, but the people-(hate to say it but mostly
    all the woman) where just plain pigs, I used to wonder if there
    houses looked like there work areas, and or restrooms, unflussed
    toilets, make-up, paper towels, tissues, and soap every where, plus
    the worst of them all femenine napkins behind the toilets on the
    floor, ect.  
    and they can't blame it on the public this time, it was the executive
    bathroom, just for the higher ups. and i know they were very clean
    every night when i left, so i tend to doubt that it is do to the
    cleaning crew..
    
    
    Dawn
    
    

    Several months ago I attended the Kansas City Career Women's
    Banquet, courtesy of DEC.  (Rat-hole:  what a neat feeling,
    sitting in a room with about 1000 professional people, and
    almost 900 of them women!)  As I was standing in line for the
    restroom (along with about 40 other women), the woman behind
    me remarked to her companion that she had heard that
    "someone" did a study that showed that a woman spends, on the
    average, about seven times as much time in the restroom as a
    man.  Her conclusion was that for a building that expected to
    get about as much traffic in the women's restroom as the
    men's that the architect should design the women's restroom
    to have roughly seven times the facilities as the men's.

    Does anyone know of such a study?  If the 7x number is even
    roughly in the right ballpark, it might go quite a ways
    toward explaining the rather more "used" feel in many women's
    restrooms.  I haven't been in many men's restrooms ;), but
    most of the public women's restrooms I've been in have been
    pretty grungy; on the other hand, our facilities at DEC are
    exceptionally and comfortably clean.

    -- Linda 

    This discussion brings to mind something I recently learned
    from my twin sister....someone who I always thought of as
    reasonably sane and 'brought up' pretty much like me.
    Apparently, our mom had given her a whole unique set of
    'public bathroom' behaviour.  'Ladies' are not supposed to
    actually SIT on the seat of a toilet?  I can't imagine how this is
    possible.  No wonder women's rooms get messy.

    A family friend was discussing a serious problem her daughter had
    developed, resulting from a serious paranoia of using the public
    bathrooms in school.  this little girl spent the first few years
    of school NEVER going to the bathroom until she got home, leading
    to a lot of physical problems.  Her mother just couldn't understand
    where such behaviour would come from.  She then started on a lecture
    about how the dirtiest place on earth is the Hot Water Faucet Handle
    in a public bathroom and how she had taught her daughter from
    an early age how to reach up and flush a toilet with her foot!
    Unreal!

    Is this some sort of secret knowledge passed down from mother to daughter?

    Regarding cleanliness of 'mens rooms'.  If you just want to take a leak,
    generally public bathrooms have a urinal so you can do it cleanly
    standing up.  At home there is none.  I think that young boys should
    be taught to pee into a toilet sitting down as there it absolutely
    no way to avoid some level of splatter that SOMEONE will eventually
    have to clean up.  So the boys coming over to visit may very well
    create more of a mess than they would in a public toilet.  But I've
    seen some pretty gross public bathrooms.
    bob

    Bob,
    
    Sitting down in a public bathroom is a good way to catch
    pubic lice, and other parasites. It is for that reason that
    girls are taught never to sit on a public toilet seat.
    Tho V.D. cannot be passed from one person to another by
    toilet seats, there are things that one can catch that way,
    especially if the toilet hasn't been cleaned very well.
    
    If anyone is going to sit on a public toilet they should
    use toilet seat covers or toilet paper over the seat to
    minimize risk. Also it isn't that hard to use the toilet
    without sitting and not mess up the seat. Just takes
    practice.
    
    Bonnie

    Bob,
    
    Much of the bathroom ettiquette you speak of I got from my mother.
    She won't sit on the seat, and prefers to wait until she gets home.
    And she taught me the "dirty handle" story. I have almost always
    flushed with my foot. In fact, they're making little pedals on the
    floor these days so that it becomes a moot point. Other bathrooms
    have buttons, some of which are too stiff to be operated by hand,
    requiring a foot.

    re: .44 (Bonnie Reinke)
    
    Bonnie, my mom echoes your sentiments about sitting down in public
    bathrooms quite frequently.
    
    As a matter of fact, a couple of weekends ago when I went to Florida
    for the weekend with some native New Englanders to show them Disney,
    the beaches, etc..., my mother thought *nothing* of giving them the
    same lecture after inquiring if any of us had to use the bathroom 
    as we were about to walk out the door...much to my total mortification!
    Well, at least my friends were amused.
    
    Times like those make me wonder if achieving an adult-adult
    relationship with my mother is an attainable goal !!!
                                                          
    						           nancy b.

    By the way, I've been challenged on the issue of 'catching things
    from toilet seats twice today'. 
    
    It is true that sexually transmitted diseased don't pass on
    toilet seats, they need warm moist dark environments to
    survive and the organisms responsible die quickly when exposed
    to light and dryness and air.
    
    But there are many other kinds of organisms that are much hardier.
    Think of how easily colds and other illnesses pass between
    children at school, on hands and toys and etc..
    
    Most of these pass into the body via the mouth and nose which
    are amply provided with lymph nodes and other barriers to
    disease organisms. Yet the mucous membranes of the female
    genital tract are just as welcoming to disease organisms and
    lack much of the built in protection that the mouth and nose
    have. Personally I wouldn't put my lower parts on any surface
    that I wouldn't be willing to put my mouth to..nothing lewid
    intended here.

    and again, if anyone's physician tells them that I'm all wet I will
    take correction gladly.
    
    Bonnie

    Called the pedi's office to ask about the bathrooms and found out
    that while yes, all that Bonnie R. said was true, an average
    bathroom that's cleaned daily is NOT the dirtiest thing a person
    comes into contact with during an average day.
    
    The filthiest, most germ-laden thing most of us handle regularly
    is -- paper money!  Because of the porous nature of the paper they
    use to prevent counterfeiting, many kinds of germs can live for a
    long time in a dollar bill and be passed on from person to person. 
    Plus the average bill has been through a dozen hands a day, and
    there's no way to disinfect it.
    
    Door handles, the edges of desktops, the receivers on public
    telephones, bannisters and other railings that people put their
    hands on and lean on while waiting in line, and the knobs on
    vending machines are all generally dirtier than the average
    bathroom faucet -- and are usually cleaned much less frequently.
    
    --bonnie

    re .48  Bonnie, did you read "The White Plague" by 
    Frank Herbert ? Wherein a scientist infected two 
    countries by sending envelopes containing small amounts
    of cash ? I agree, the stuff is dirty, but I'd wallow
    in it if I could >8-}
    
    Dana

    

    Re: .45     
                
    OK, Bonnie. 
    
    In an experimental mood I tried to pee while hovering over the toilet
    seat but without touching it. It's harder for a man! I had to hold on
    to the seat with one hand, and aim the stream with the other. It would
    be very tiring to hold this position for more than a minute or two. 
                                                   
    The attempt was about 95% successful. This is not acceptable --
    anything short of 100% does not meet specifications. (But I cleaned
    it up.)                                        
                                                  
    Incidentally paper toilet seat covers (sometimes known as horse
    collars) are becoming more common in men's rooms. They've been
    installed in most Digital facilities I've been in recently. 
    
    Bruce
         

    in re .49
    
    Dana, I started the 'white plague' but found the story so
    depressing that I never finished it...I'd forgotten how the
    plague was spread.
    
    in re .50
    
    Bob?
    
    :-) All it takes is practice! :-) I've been doing it for years
    without haning on to anything..and with 100% success the vast
    majority of the time...
    
    Bonnie

    re: Note 761.51 by WMOIS::B_REINKE

    I loved 'white plague', read a short piece of it in OMNI and then
    couldn't wait for it to come out.

    I believe that Bruce Sloane conducted the fore-mentioned experiement
    (dare I say single-handedly?)..not I.  maybe i'll give it a try.

    A few notes back you mentioned something real interesting....perhaps
    due to our physical makeup, women are more susceptable to catching
    nasty things from toilet seats?  I've never heard of anyone 
    catching anything from a toilet seat....and as far as I know men just
    plunk their behinds right down.  In the 'old days' lots of people
    used to catch a smoke while they were there...I'm sure not hovering the
    whole time!

    I guess what I really was wondering was whether the women of this
    community continue to teach these practices to their daughters?
    Also to their sons?  When I first heard about this, it sounded like
    some secret piece of information handed down, Mother to daughter,
    through the ages.  It was such a shock to learn that our Mom had
    taught this to my sister and never mentioned it to me....
    bob

    MY mother never taught me.  I was quite upset to learn at the age of 20
    that while all my life I'd been pressing the flush lever with my hand
    as if I were at home, others had been using their dirty shoes!  Yuck!
    
    Also, WHAT PART are you letting touch the toilet seat??!  Good grief! 
    Without going into explicit detail, let me assure you that nothing very
    personal of me touches the seat itself.  Sitting on a park bench in
    shorts or on the side of a pool in a bathing suit is as dangerous an
    activity.
    
    I have never caught anything despite my foolhardy public bathroom use.
    
    As mentioned before, if you let your hand touch a stair railing, why
    not let your leg touch a toilet seat?  Your hand is much more likely to
    come into contact with your face and thereby transmit germs inside.
    
    Perhaps this is one of those urban myth things... 
    
    In my opinion, a bug clever enough to even *think* of jumping off a
    warm host onto an inhospitable, cold, porcelain thing in the
    *anticipation* of something better coming along is welcome to profit
    from its forethought...  :-)
    
    Pam

    
    Whats tough for some men is when they find that the nozzle has turned
    into a sprayer (or a tee in the unix sense)...

    re: .53
    
    Amen, Pam . . . 
    
    My mother tried to teach me more, er, "civilized" bathroom
    manners, but after the toilet at Sambo's [we're talking
    pre-race-consciousness days here] clogged trying to flush one of
    those paper horse collars and spilled used toilet water all over
    the floor (including my ten-year-old feet) I decided it wasn't
    worth the effort. . .
    
    --bonnie

    
    I don't understand the part about not letting your hands touch
    the handle to flush.  I mean, don't you *wash* your hands after you go
    to the bathroom.  What on earth is the *problem*?  Washing up
    afterwards was the only thing I was taught to do, not all this other
    weird stuff, like not sitting on the seat, and pissing all over the seat
    instead of into the bowl (*GGGRRRR!!*).
    
    Oh, and yes, I've never caught *anything* from a toilet seat, except
    perhaps for colds, because I haven't a clue where I really catch them
    from.  And BTW I suffer from fewer colds per calendar year than most
    people.  On average, I get one cold a year.  And in the winter, I just
    try to wash my hands a little more frequently, because as Bonnie
    says, that's where colds are transmitted.

    It seems like there's two schools of motherhood here -- one teaches
    that public bathrooms are different (more germ-ridden) than private
    bathrooms, and the other makes no differentiation.  (I.e., ALL
    bathrooms are germ-ridden!)
    
    I do think "bathroom paranoia" is one of those urban myths.  However, I
    can't fault anybody who follows the advice of her mother (mother never
    said to "miss", just not to sit...:-) ).  I sit on it myself, but I
    understand that some people think it's gross to sit where you may have
    just wiped away someone else's mess.  It doesn't bother me, but then I
    don't think about it.  (I also clean a fish tank regularly and babysat
    a child who used cloth diapers...)
    
    Not touching the handle is probably related to "what have your hands
    just been dealing with."  Gross, but true.  I guess I just have basic
    trust in people's hygiene -- AND I always wash my hands thoroughly
    within about 10 seconds so it's no big problem.
    
    Pam

Historical point  :)

Yes, Virginia, we did discuss this before. Vol 1, Note 323  
But this note is more explicit than the Vol 1 note. We're either
turning into a bunch of DOLs and DOMs (dirty old *) or we're 
feeling much more comfortable around each other. 

>761.57  "bathroom paranoia" 

I like the phrase you used. And I think bathroom paranoia is quite
prevalent, somehow related to sexual fears and germ phobias.

Some people conduct themselves as tho touching any surface in a ladies
room will soil them forever.  If they actually pick up a towel they've 
dropped, they do it the same way one picks up a dead mouse ... 
extended finger tips and grim expression. (Is one still allowed to say
"prissy.") I loathe the paper-seat collars. Too many of them land of
the floor and are left there.

My first contact with "bathroom paranoia" occurred before I went to 
kindergarten.  My girlfriend Sherri went wee-wee, as we said 
at that age, then used about seven feet of toilet paper to wipe 
herself.  Everyone in her family did. Their bathroom had a noisy
paper-roller, and I always felt a little bit icky when hearing the
roller going thump thump thump thump thump thump thump thump
thump thump thump. It struck me as wasteful and sorta sick.

By the way, one can catch VD from a toilet seat. IF there is a 
discharge on the surface, and IF you contact the discharge with an 
open wound. But if you make sure the surface is dry before enthroning 
yourself and watch where you put the open wounds ... 

Another point of "bathroom paranoia" 
There are people who enter a stall, then flush the toilet continuously 
for their entire stall visit.  What exactly is going on here eludes me 
... but other people need to run a faucet to help. Everyone to their own
neuroses, eh?

Meigs

>There are people who enter a stall, then flush the toilet continuously 
>for their entire stall visit.  What exactly is going on here eludes me 

I actually think there's a real term for this, like 'shy kidneys' (my
Pop-in-law is a urologist...). It's pretty much what it sounds like.
	Mez

The below is a contribution from a member of the community who wishes to remain
anonymous at this time.
	Mez

===============================================================================

This isn't exactly easy to mention publically, but crab lice can be
transmitted through the medium of toilet seats. It happened to me when I was
teaching 16 years ago, and I was very ashamed and embarassed. It still makes me
*extremely* uncomfortable to mention it explicitly here. I have also talked to
a man who told me how crab lice spread throughout his whole group from one
infected toilet at his job. The latter is the the only reason why I'm at all
willing to talk about this at all.
    
Even if this is rare, I personally don't want to chance that ever again, and I
don't care if people think I'm weird for being extra careful.

    Gosh, 60 replys all because of a frustrating night in a retail store.
    
    This latest discussion on rest room habits really makes me smile.
    I have done silent studies in ladies rooms and I have some shocking
    news for you, 80% of you don't wash your hands when you leave the
    rest room. I don't mean to start any trouble, but all the non washers
    except 1, have been white women, and that 1 was a black woman  and
    I spoke to her about it. She smiled, thanked me and proceeded to
    wash her hands. I have to laugh when I see women flush with there
    feet and turn and walk out.  I should also say that half of my studies
    were done in Digital ladies rooms, and some of you communicating
    in this file are guilty. 
    I have never walked out of a bath room or public rest room with
    out washing my hands. I always wipe off and cover the seat( with
    either a liner or strips of toilet paper and I always sit. In my
    50+ years I have never caught anything from a toilet seat.  I get
    about 1 cold a year, so I can't say that it was from a toilet seat.
    
    +pat+

    re:  the last


    +pat+,

    You aren't the only one who has done "silent" studies on the
    hand washing practices in the loo.  As a psychological study,
    it was researched following prescribed methods.  The counter
    was installed in one of the chosen restrooms so that no one
    could see her for part of the study and a survey done.  The 
    counter then was positioned where she could be seen and a 
    survey done.  Guess what????   The instances of hand washing
    increased when there was a witness.  The old "guilt" took over
    and hands got washed!!!   If the participant thought she was
    alone and no one could see her, she ususally didn't wash her
    hands.  You just reinforced the scholarly study's results.

    Congrats MS-behaviorist!

    justme....jacqui

    Why should I be embarassed because I don't wash my hands?
    
    -Jody
    

	I had always been of the opinion that if I didn't get anything
	on my hands then there was no need to wash them.  Then I read
	an article (sorry, don't remember where) in which a study was
	done of the contamination levels in toilet stalls.  The jist of
	it was that the flush toilet sprays a mist up from the toilet
	bowl onto the flush handle.  Not being a 'footflusher', I now
	wash my hands every time.  And by wash I do *not* mean run a
	little water over them and then dry (as has been my observation
	is what most women mean by 'washing'), but use soap and lather
	well before rinsing.

	Leslie

    Re .63, Jody, I think I always wash my hands because my mother always
    told me to, in such a tone as to indicate that washing my hands after
    going to the bathroom is one of life's major rules that I should
    never neglect no matter what happens!  However, I admit I'm the
    type who just rinses them under the water and dries them off.  I
    don't always use soap.
    
    Re .58, (I think) Meigs, I always thought that people continously
    flushed in bathroom stalls because they were afraid they were going
    to make some sort of embarrassing noise and they wanted to muffle
    it so the people standing combing their hair, etc., wouldn't be
    able to hear it. :-)
    
    Something that I always find to be icky is when I walk into a stall
    and the person before me has used a paper seat cover and left it
    on the toilet, all wrinkled up.  Yu-uck!  (Do they think the next
    person wants to use the same one?!)
    
   Labor Day Weekend I was reminded of this topic and =wn= :-), when
    I went into a public restroom in Provincetown, sat down, and looked
    up to see the words "Sisterhood Is Powerful" scratched in big letters
    on the inside of the bathroom door!! ha-ha  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Sometimes I wash my hands _before_ doing my business.  After-washing
    is sporadic.  My mother taught me to hover or use toilet paper strips
    on the seat, and to wash afterwards, but I stopped doing both as a
    matter of course at some point in the too distant past.
    
    My Grandmother told me about a relative of hers (an aunt, maybe
    -- this was in olden times) who, if she felt the need to urinate,
    while outside, would just put one foot up on the curb, and discreetly 
    (?!) let it flow in the gutter (this was obviously in the days of 
    street-length dresses).  My Grandmother was mortified to be with her 
    on these occasions.  (Can't say as I blame her!)
       
    
    CQ

    G'Day,
    
    	I find the concept of flushing the toilet with your foot most
    amusing.  You folks in the states must have different toilets to us
    down-under.  Most of our toilets are either flushed by pulling a chain
    (older style) or by pushing a button on the top of the cistern.  Trying
    to do either of these operations with ones foot would be next to
    impossible!  You would be more likely to end up flat on your back on
    the floor and I'm sure that would be worse than maybe getting something
    on your hand.  Maybe if you took your shoe off and had well trained
    toes ....
    
    David.
   

    G'Day,
    
    	Without wanting to sound too bizarre, I was kind of hoping that my
    previous note would prompt someone to tell me about US toilets and how
    you can flush them with your foot.  It seems I scared everyone away as
    after a string of 67 replies mine was the last!
    
    David.
    

    Quite a few public-facility toilets here are made with foot pedals
    (mounted on the side of the base, or on the wall next to it) so
    "flushing with the feet" isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. (Though I
    do like the image of trying to pull one of the chain variety with one's
    toes...)
    
    -b

    Sorta gives new meaning to the term 'just hanging in there'   (^;
    
    ..dale
    

    other toilets have a handle that is about hip high or a button
    on the wall that is about the same height, either can be pushed
    or depressed by a foot easily.
    
    Bonnie

    re..71
    Bonnie, I can't relate to a button on the wall, hip high as something
    easy to press with the foot. Maybe it's because I have never used
    my foot to flush except when it's a pedal on the floor.
    
    Some folks have mentioned the pro's and con's of washing their hands
    prior to leaving the rest room, my only comment is that I will be
    eating less at future note parties.  The probability of coming in
    contact with urine when drying one's vaginal area is so high, that
    I can't imagine not washing, maybe you just drip dry.  Body wastes
    carry the impurities out of our bodies. 

    <--(.71)
    
    It's funny, until I read this string I'd always felt slightly guilty
    for flushing with my foot and even a couple times made the effort to
    press the lever with my hand.  I figured I was just being lazy but now
    I feel much better about it!
    
    And it was really interesting and surprising to hear that not everyone
    was taught to wash their hands afterward, my mum would've skelped me a
    good one if I'd tried to get away without and naturally I taught my
    kids the same rules.
    
    						=maggie

>    It's funny, until I read this string I'd always felt slightly guilty
>    for flushing with my foot and even a couple times made the effort to
>    press the lever with my hand.

 Depending on where I am, um, relieveing myself, I will either use my hand or my
foot depending on my impression of the general cleanliness of the handle. I have
always been somewhat reluctant to use my foot after having a few beers though.
I just don't know how I'd explain how my left foot got so wet! ;^) *10

 The Doctah

    
re .71:
        
    >The probability of coming in
    >contact with urine when drying one's vaginal area is so high, that
    >I can't imagine not washing, maybe you just drip dry.  Body wastes
    >carry the impurities out of our bodies. 
    
    Urine is sterile.
    

    > Urine is sterile.
    
    good thing, we wouldn't want it reproducing all over the seat

    <--(.75)
    
    Only when it's still inside, I think, Ellen.  In the survival-in-case-
    of-disaster course for people with funny jobs, they teach that urine is
    a good source of water to wash open wounds with, but only if one is
    male because they're the only ones who can supply it in still-sterile
    form right onto the wound.  
    
    						=maggie
    
    (The same course also points out that maggots are great for cleaning up
    wounds because they'll only eat dead tissue.  Very interesting course. 
    I wasn't especially hungry those days, for some reason :')

    I always do what my mum told me.  Always wash your hands, always
    put paper on the seat in a strange loo, always wear clean underwear
    in case of an accident.  (^;  (^;
    
    Also passed this onto my daughters.  All the baby boomers stand
    and salute (^;
    
    ...dale
    

           <<< Note 761.77 by RAINBO::TARBET "Sama budu polevat'" >>>

>    Only when it's still inside, I think, Ellen.  In the survival-in-case-
>    of-disaster course for people with funny jobs, they teach that urine is
>    a good source of water to wash open wounds with, but only if one is
>    male because they're the only ones who can supply it in still-sterile
>    form right onto the wound.  
 
But it does not carry impurities *from the body* - outside the body, it is
no more or less sterile than anything else.  While I admit it is disgusting,
and *I* would never drink or eat something if I knew it had urine in it,
it certainly is not a health risk (as I understand it.)  (This has been the
subject of some discussion on one of the newsgroups I read lately, and a few
of the posters consulted physicians to find out.)
 
D!

    <--(.79)
    
    um, isn't that what *I* said, D!?

-1
>    um, isn't that what *I* said, D!?

Yuh, I wasn't disagreeing.  I was just adding - you said "except only when it's
inside the body".  I was pointing out that even after it has been outside the
body for some time, it is *still* not much of a health risk, since it was
sterile to start with it will have no more germs than water that has been
sitting out for a while.

D!

    D!
    
    I would question if urine that has been outside the body for
    any length of time is still as sterile as water that has been
    standing for the same period of time. Urine does contain
    nutrients that bacteria can grow in while water does not.
    
    Bonnie

I'm talking tap water, exposed to dust, which does have nutrients...as anyone
knows who has left a glass of water out for a day, then drank some.  :-P
(Or maybe it's only Waltham water that tastes like mildew after 24 hours or
so...that's why we get spring water.)

Hit <next reply> now if you are weak of stomach...

I have read a number of stories about people who keep urine around for...ah...
sexual purposes for quite some time.  Enough to accumulate gallons.  And
associated articles saying this was "safe and okay".  

Where have I read these things?  Don't even ask... :-)

D!

>I have read a number of stories about people who keep urine around for...ah...
>sexual purposes for quite some time.  Enough to accumulate gallons. 

 Oh, like a couple of hours with a case of beer? ;-)

    Geez, Mark, couldn't you have put a form feed before the quote from
    D!'s note?  Ugh, I'm so disgusted!
    
    -- Mike

 oops! That's one of the problems with DECWindows notes. You don't know where
the form-feeds are unless someone says "after the form-feed."

 The Doctah

    the aids brochure they hand out here says...ah..."water sports"
    is in the risky sex category.
    
    

re: -1

Really? What brochure is that?  The ones I have seen say it falls in the
"possibly dangerous" category, along with deep kissing and oral sex; that
is, they just don't know if it's 100% safe, so they advise caution.
(Reasonable advice, I'd say.)

If I remember correctly, the AIDS virus dies almost instantly outside
the body. I would assume this means that any AIDS virus living in urine
(could they really live in it, I dunno) would die quickly.

Also, the term water-sports refers to both urine and enemas, the latter
I could see being dangerous in a sexual situation.

Anyway, the subject at hand (whether it is unsanitary to not wash your hands
after urinating) - you can't give *yourself* AIDS, and I don't think you
are more likely to pass it on that way than through the sweat and saliva
that are generally on hands.

D!

re: .88

    

>If I remember correctly, the AIDS virus dies almost instantly outside
>the body. I would assume this means that any AIDS virus living in urine
>(could they really live in it, I dunno) would die quickly.


    That is what I hear also. However, it does not explain needles (used
    for illegal drugs by adicts, or accidents in hospitals).
    
    What is the difference between a needle (cold, outside the body,
    etc) and a mosquito? a tick? a flea?
    
    No one has explained/convinced me of the difference.
    
    Steve

    Re .89: Quick, unauthoritative answer: the blood in a needle doesn't
    get cold or exposed to air, at least not right away; that's why it's a
    much more effective transmitter than, say, dried blood particles
    floating in the air (or the things you're liable to breath in the
    average restroom). 

    As for mosquitos and other bloodsuckers, one theory is that since they
    ingest the blood (and since it isn't a mosquito's goal in life to put
    any blood _back_), they are less likely to transmit the disease. The
    statistics I've read (for what that's worth - I don't expect this to be
    a totally convincing argument) indicate that the incidence of AIDS
    among non-high-risk people living in a mosquito-infested environment is
    not any higher than that of non-high-risk people living in
    non-mosquito-infested environments (whew!). (Makes me wonder if the
    researchers are checking out "mosquito spit" to see if it's an
    effective AIDS-killer! But of course having one's blood digested to get
    rid of a virus is... overkill, no?)

    -b