Conference turris::womannotes-v2

   Several weeks ago I heard Prof. Hochschild being interviewed on
   WBUR Fresh Air about her work on this book. She sounded real 
   interesting - commonsensical and knowledgeable about how people cope 
   with psychological problems.

   One of her findings was that even in couples where the male accepts
   responsibility for household work, the female still tends to
   do more than half the work. I think the book describes _how_ that 
   imbalance comes to be in a number of couples.

   I was impressed enough to add the book to my list of ones to look for.
   I haven't been to Wordsworth since then, though };)

   reg

    
    She was on either Phil or Oprah two weeks ago. As I 
    was home in bed sick, I got the chance to catch the
    show. She was very interesting, and it's funny how 
    each generation slides into this pattern - the 
    woman going home to her second job! 
    
    I am 2 years married and 30 years old, and found the 
    very same thing happening to me. Last nite, while
    hubby has golf nite, I commuted 35 miles from 
    CFO to my home in Nashua, threw laundry in, ironed
    clothes for both of us, grocery shopped, cleaned
    the fridge out, watered the flowers and lawn, 
    got the trash ready for pick-up this am, folded
    laundry, and finally ate a sandwich at 9, then
    watched thirtysomething and developed an enormous 
    headache..... my husband says to me when he rolls
     gee honey you should visit some friends and relax!
    
    I try real hard not to go into overload on the 
    second shift, but it's hard when you need to 
    attend to the simple basics of taking care of your 
    home. I'm not a fanatic, but I find with my 
    commute, as well as tending with having colitis (summers
    are when it flares up on me) that I have to be very
    well organized...... I think of having children in
    this situation, and know I would not be able to physically
    or mentally cope. 
    
    
    I shouldn't say my husband doesn't help - he does dishes
    and cleans up the kitchen, but many times the after
    5 work tips to me - I would be very interested in
    reading how other women cope and how to even out the 
    imbalance! 
    
    

    So many of us have been trained that our own needs come last -- we
    give DEC our full 40 hours plus commuting, then we give our
    homes/families the 20 or 30 hours they need, and then what little
    is leftover we take for ourselves and have a sandwich at 9 and
    watch some TV, too tired for anything else.  And we think that's
    the right way to do it -- some awful unnamed fate, and the scorn
    of millions of women, awaits the lousy housekeeper.
    
    But maybe we should try taking some time for ourselves *first*,
    and let the house fend for itself a bit more. 
    
    I'm not saying neglect the house, but let it absorb its share of
    the time squeeze.  Maybe it wouldn't be as tidy as we think our
    mothers would like it to be, but is a tidy house worth neglecting
    our own lives to achieve?  Not in my book.
    
    --bonnie

    I come home to cooking, dishes, and bathrooms.
    
    Rick comes home to laundry, mowing, and vacuuming.
    
    We wing it with the rest.  [I tend to think that Rick does more of the
    'traditional' stuff...I like to build and rip apart and paper and
    refinish and that stuff is pretty time consuming leaving little time
    for dusting and waxing]
    
    As anyone visiting our home can attest, we both take time to do things
    for ourselves before swinging into the second shift -- frequently
    letting second shift pile up until it becomes priority.  Our motto is
    'clutter, not filth.'
    
    We do not have children.  When we've had children living with us, most
    of the child-care has fallen to me.  That meant that I walked away from
    everything other than the bathrooms and Rick picked up the rest.
    
    This wasn't negotiated, it evolved.  There was a time when dishes
    weren't done until we ran out [with five sets of dishes and only two
    people this made it formidable when the time came].  I hated this, so I
    started doing dishes.  I never wanted a yard in the first place, so I
    frankly do not care if the grass is hip deep; Rick wanted a yard, he
    mows it.  Rick picked up the laundry when we got our own washer and
    dryer...it was fun in the beginning and he formed the habit.  I prefer
    not to have popcorn and iced tea _every_ night for dinner, hence I
    cook.
    
    I am told that this evolving method of division of labour won't work
    for other people.  I don't understand why not; but I accept that people
    know what they're up against.
    
    Neither of us was raised like this. Both of us were the bane of our
    tidy parents' existence growing up because we just never bought into
    the guilt of 'you ought to be ashamed of this mess.'
    
    Wretched creature that I am, I never even made the effort to understand
    why my needs should come last because I never intended to live my life
    like that.  Certainly I don't always come first, but always last ?  no
    way.
    
       Ann

    Boy, does this one sound familiar!  It's real easy even for those of us
    who "know better" to fall right back into this
    the-"lady"-does-all-the-work trap.  I think about this just about every
    Thursday morning (e.g., tomorrow).  Thursday is "chore day" in our house.
    While Paul rolls out of bed and takes a shower, I change the bedclothes
    and start the light-things laundry and make the bed, feed the cats, set
    the table for breakfast and start water for tea, water the plants,
    change the catbox, straighten up the place, and fold and put away the
    towels, which went into the dryer when I went to bed.  Then he appears,
    and we both eat.  Then I take a shower while he mopes around and
    complains that he is going to be late.  Then I put the laundry in the
    dryer, and off we go.  Then I work (8:30 to 6, usually).  On the way
    home, we pick up groceries, sometimes all of them if we were busy
    Wednesday night (like this week) or just the fish otherwise.  Then we
    go home, and he goes and plays with his electronic stuff while I start
    baking bread, put away the laundry, do the ironing, and make dinner.
    
    It is somewhat less panicky for him if I need a car that day, like I do
    tomorrow (assuming both of our 10-year-old cars are running, which they
    are at the moment - my car has 91K miles on it, and his is close). 
    Then he can leave while I shower and do the chores!  When I've tried to
    get him to do half the chores, they don't get done, or half of them get
    done and then he gets distracted.
    
    No wonder I don't want anyone to see me doing this....
               
    Anyhow, I get a lot of resentment about how my priorities (like clean
    underwear and food in the fridge, I guess) always end up taking
    precedence...  And Paul actually is very good and really does try to
    help since he knows that half of the chores are logically his anyhow
    (at least for things that don't injure his bad knee).  I do sort of
    give up.  It tends to be easier to take care of stuff myself than to
    not have it be taken care of, or to explain over and over again how to
    do it (how hard can it be to change the sheets?).
    
    /Charlotte

    I was married only two months ago and was quite aprahensive about
    how things were going to work out as far as house work was concerned.
    Declan , my husband, has been spoilt rotten by a mother who gets
    up at 6.00am in order to have a full breakfast and lunch ready for
    the two men of the house, declan also has three sisters who were
    brought up to clean away his dirty dishes and bring him his tea
    and biscuits.  Needless to say I got numerous stiff hints from his
    minders prior to the wedding such as "I hope you'll look after him
    as well as I do" and "are you sure I cant show you how to bake home
    made bread and you know he only eats sirloin steak he wont eat round
    steak" .  However I bit my tongue and decided to see how things
    evolved.  
    
    On arrival back from honeymoon I was faced with phone calls every
    evening from mother "what have you got for his lunch in the morning
    what did he have for dinner this evening? did you cook it ? did
    you make him do the dished again? and the like" and for a while
    I joked about the fact that he's a big boy now and he'll have to
    learn how to cook sometime and how he's a much better ironer than
    I am.  Now his poor mother is kicking herself to see how well he
    does look after himself and enjoys cleaning and polishing and hoovering
    because its his own home and he's proud of it.  Although she never
    admits it to me I believe she told my mother that she thinks its
    only fair that he do his bit and she wishes she had been brought
    up to expect males to do their fair share.  still I think she'd
    die if any of the aunts or neighbours heard that her husband ever
    had to hang out washing or cook.  
                  
    I still get the feeling though that Declan thinks it very inovative
    and considerate of him to cook breakfast on a Saturday morning.
    Dont get me wrong I do appreciate it but I also only think its fair.
     
    
    
    

    I believe the two key points re. this issue are setting/agreeing
    on priorities and agreeing on how  chores/responsibilities are
    shared within those priorities.
    In my case I have decided a few years back (and my husband agreed)
    that earning the maximum amount of money and making a career 
    did definitely not take priority over a good quality of life.
    I defined a good quality of life with having leasure time to
    spend with my husband, having time to spend to pursue my
    hobbies, whilst having a reasonably interesting job and whilst
    living in a nice (not luxurious) and clean home. What that meant
    in practical terms for us was that I started working part-time
    (hence giving up some income and giving up career progression
    possibilities), and hiring a cleaning lady who comes in two
    afternoons per week (giving up some spending money). I really
    am very happy with my  2nd shift workload - and life in general
    - which looks like that. I work Monday's through Thursdays from
    8.30 to 3.30 pm and get home at around 4pm when I take my dogs
    for a walk (a hobby of mine!), then feed the dogs/cat (cat is also
    a hobby of mine), pick up around the house a little bit or water
    the yard, etc. until my husband gets back from work. We then read
    the newspapers/talk/have a drink until it is time to get dinner
    ready. I spend Fridays doing the grocery shopping, paying bills,
    doing the laundry and ironing and all necessary errands. This
    leaves us Saturday and Sunday to spend together doing things which
    we enjoy rather than chores. As far as sharing chores is concerned,
    we have agreed that I handle the majority of them (because I have
    much more free time), but my husband cuts the grass and does the
    hard work around the yard  and does all the cooking. We always
    have a full/cooked meal for dinner, as we use the time we have 
    dinner together (usually over an hour) to talk about/discuss anything
    of interest to us both. This formula works really well for both
    of us because we have agreed priorities and we have an agreement
    on who does what/when in terms of chores which we both respect.
    Martha
    

    For most of my married life I was a homemaker.  We had a division
    of labor which kind of went this way *I* did *woman's work* and
    *he* did *manly things* like hammer and nail and mow the lawn, etc.
    
    He had a mother who was incredible; she did *everything* and I mean
    *everything* from shovel the drive in 3' of snow to wallpaper to
    laundry to whatever.  Well, I drew the line at some of *that*!
    
    When my children got older, I began to work part time and discovered
    that John figured life would be the same.  It was for years, because
    I am an idiot, obviously.  
    
    Then the worm turned.  I started college
    full time - 4 courses - and something began to go quickly.  Like
    regular meals not made in one pot, dusting, ironing, all that good
    stuff.  I did what I could when I could and told everyone that if
    anything bothered them enough, they were capable of doing it for
    themselves.

    I learned that the house wouldn't fall down, and the kids would
    not die, and my brilliant engineer husband could figure out the
    mechanism on the vacumm cleaner, and I managed 18 months of straight
    schooling as a full time job.
    
    I am alone now.  And like one noter said, he does it all as a single.
    But I don't do anything much until it annoys the hell out of me;
    dusting and cleaning and dish washing and mowing the lawn and cleaning
    the garage and basement and vacumming and...and...get done on a
    hit or miss basis.  And my house isn't a mess and my life is relaxed.
    
    But I do swear once I saw a tiger in my backyard when I didn't
    mow the lawn for a month!  It looked like something out of the 
    National Geographic on African plains.
    
    M
    

    Ellen Goodman's  column  in  the  Boston Globe on Tuesday (1 Aug.)
    discussed this book.  As usual, she's well worth reading.

--David

    There is an article on this in Time magazine this week (Aug.5 '89).
    
    Personally, I think this "problem" is going to take a long time
    changing.  I don't really know why it is that, yes it is the female
    that comes homw and picks up the rest of "her" job at the end of
    an 8 hour day.  I have three kids, preschool age, and one on the
    way.  My day goes like this. Get up at six, take a shower, hubbie
    wakes up.  I go and wake up the kids. Hubbie goes inot bathroom.
    I put on makeup, dress, dry  my hair, straighten bedroom.  Go in
    and dress three kids, make beds in their rooms.  Hubbie comes out
    of bathroom.  Sometimes, about one day out of four, he'll get one
    kid dressed.  
    
    Go downstairs, feed breakfast to the kids, breakup squabbles over
    who gets to read  the cereal box, who gets the prize, etc.  Give
    dog water, feed cat, make luchboxes for the kids, gather clothes
    that may be needed in daycare, put it all in the car.  Take dog
    out. Gather up breakfast dishes, get kids shoes on, jackets on etc,
    load them in the car.  Hubbie comes downstairs, get briefcase and
    accompanies us out.  This is all before 8am.  If I'm lucky, I'll
    find a moment to put a load of laundry in to wash while I'm gone.
    
    Go to work, after dropping kids off at daycare.
    
    Pick up kids at  five, go home, put together a semblance of dinner
    for the kids, clean them up, wait for hubbie to get home around
    7pm.  Another dinner gets made for us, he usually does this.  Put
    kids into PJ's after a bath and teeth brushing.  Clean up dinner
    dishes and kitchen, unload dishwasher, reload dishwasher, feed dog,
    straighten up any toys etc. left around.  Kids go to bed around
    8.  And it goes on.
    
    Don't know how to make things more "equal". We've discussed it till
    I'm blue in the face.  Nothing ever changes.  Weekends are spent
    doing chores like cleaning, mowing etc.  Communication is not the
    key, cooperation, I think is.  I also know that I have a low tolerance
    for mess, he doesn't appear to have.
    
    Second shift is quite an apt phrase for a problem that will continue
    to plague women and men until something gives.  I'm not surprised
    the divorce rate is continuing to skyrocket.
    

re: .9
    
    >    He had a mother who was incredible; she did *everything* and I mean
    >    *everything* from shovel the drive in 3' of snow to wallpaper to
    >    laundry to whatever.  Well, I drew the line at some of *that*!

    Sounds like my mother . . . always a garden, best cook in at least
    three miles, always fresh baking for dessert and lunches, equally
    adept with screwdriver, hammer, crochet hook, sewing machine, or
    cake-decorating tube.  She fed us well on a food budget that was
    less than what general standards said we should have been starving
    on, kept us all in clothes, never threw anything out . . . 
    
    Yeah, I've let go and learned that the house doesn't fall down
    when things aren't done.  Neil's wonderful, does more than his
    share (generally he does the routine stuff -- laundry, vacuuming,
    floor-mopping -- while I cook, take care of the yard, and do the
    occasional stuff like closet-cleaning and so on.  Kat does the
    dishes and cleanup after supper), and is generally a household
    saint among men. 
    
    But what I haven't let go of is the guilt, the inadequacy.  How
    can I be a real woman if there are magazines sliding off the end
    table, dust on the picture frames, and no cookies in the cookie
    jar waiting for a snack?  How can I be a real woman when my spouse
    is doing half of my work?  And horror of horrors, when he's a more
    nurturing parent than I am?  
    
    Getting the chore divided equitably and performed satisfactorily
    (I have to look the other way while Neil's doing the laundry . . .
    ) relieves the stress, reduces the load, and is definitely a step
    forward.  But it doesn't begin to solve the problem.
    
    --bonnie

    I think my trouble is, I have a real low tolerance for clutter, even
    though I don't mind dirt (within reason!).  I don't insist that I be
    able to EAT off the floors in our place, but I do like to be able to
    WALK on them.  Paul just doesn't notice these things - which is funny
    given that he goes around barefoot in the house most of the time.  It
    doesn't bother him to trip over piles of junk when he doesn't have his
    glasses on, or step on diodes, blobs of solder, and little pieces of
    wire and stuff with no shoes on.  Me, it makes me feel like I am living
    inside a *wastebasket* after a while!  Even Paul draws the line at
    stepping barefoot on unnoticed hairballs produced by the younger of our
    two cats, though... and isn't real fond of stepping in wet kitchen
    spills, either.
    
    One of my friends instituted a neat rotating chore scheme when HE got
    married (he is an accomplished cook, especially of oriental food),
    which seemed to work real well.  But I guess those schemes don't work
    if only one person in the rotation notices that not only is it their
    week to clean the toilet, but that it is filthy and needs doing -
    ditto on changing the catbox, or picking up and vacuuming the study
    (which the housekeeper will vacuum only if there isn't much junk on the
    floor - like most reasonably housekeepers, she cleans around things
    rather than moving them so that you can't find them later - if there is
    too much clutter the area doesn't get cleaned).
    
    My mother is one of the world's cleanest people - you really *could*
    eat off her floors, if you had a mind to (and if she didn't spot you
    doing it...).  She vacuums every day.  But her house is a very pleasant
    place to visit - cheerful, tidy, clean, not at all like a wastebasket.
    Of course, it is easy to keep the home of one person with no pets in
    apple-pie order, but it was the same when my father was still alive,
    and even back when my brother and I were kids, and had pets.  I guess I
    sort of learned to associate clutter with laziness, or sloppiness, or
    something.
    
    /Charlotte
    
    

    re: .13
    
    >I guess I sort of learned to associate clutter with laziness, or
    >sloppiness, or something.
    
    That's a good point, Charlotte.  We didn't have much money when we
    were growing up, but my mother always made a point of making sure
    we knew that that didn't make us "poor", that poverty was as much
    spiritual as physical, and that even though we couldn't afford new
    winter coats, we could live with dignity.
    
    So letting the housekeeping standards drop is a moral failing, not
    just a practical adjustment.  I think I'd have less guilt about
    having an affair than I do about the mess.
    
    --bonnie

    After reading the basenote here AND the Time synopsis of the book, I
    was doubly aware when I went home yesterday of how much I am a "second
    shifter". I literally plan dinner while driving home, and turn on the
    oven, if need be, as I walk in the door.  I was also much more aware of
    my husband sitting down to watch "Miami Vice" as he does every night,
    while I got Ryan to bed....
    
    As noted in other replies, my husband does a lot,by any standards, but
    doesn't seem to notice or pay attention to the less-than-obvious things
    that need to be done every week, like groceries, laundry (when it's not
    overflowing the basket) or washing the kitchen floor.
    
    

 I'm a second shifter too, but not to the extent that my wife is. I do alot of
things around the house, but there are always things that she does that I
wouldn't have thought of doing. In general, she is less tolerant of clutter than 
I am. We have a pretty good dividion of labor, but she still seems to have the
larger half. It is not unusual for us to get up at 6 and work till 10, and
still have things that remain undone. Being two full-time working parents
is a pain.

 The Doctah

    I enjoyed this note!
    
    I realize now that I am more like my mom than I want to admit.  When I
    was growing up, chores had to be done to HER standard.  "I did my best"
    didn't cut it;  you did it til it was RIGHT.  I was also taught to
    notice things:  if there was a dirty plate on the table, you picked it 
    up.  If a load of wash had been done, you folded it and put it away.
    If the catbox was overflowing, you cleaned it.
    
    So for the first part of my marriage, I would say withering things like
    "I would *think* a person could SEE that (fill in the blank) needs to
    be done!"  This is a waste of energy!  It's easier to do it myself, and
    less stress, too.
     
    I've been married for 9 months now, and I frankly can't see any
    difference, chores-wise, than when I lived alone.  I still do all the
    wash, dishes, cleaning, dusting, shopping, cooking, bed-making,
    ironing, garbage;  just like I used to.  The difference (and the
    payoff) now is that I have *no* compunctions about asking my husband
    for money when I have used mine up.  Also he is always there to bail
    me out of a jam, drive me to work if I ask, take me out to dinner if
    I don't feel like cooking, take me out to a movie I'm dying to see,
    give me clothes money "because you deserve it", listen to me if I've
    had a bad day, take me out for a day in Boston, make me go on vacations
    (!), make me laugh (constantly), and help me with anything.
    
    He works two jobs, so I really don't feel like asking him to help out
    with the housework;  that's enough.  If I am pushed for time, I will
    ask him for help, but usually not.  Also, again like my mom, I like
    chores done MY way!  It's lots easier for me to make the bed in the
    first place that to have to re-make it every morning because he didn't
    tuck the sheets in.
    
    Actually, I like our system as it is.  He doesn't mind if the house 
    doesn't look just perfect, and doesn't even mind sandwiches for supper
    every night!
    
    I guess you just have to do what works for you and your family. 
    Certainly if we had children living with us the above system would
    probably crack under the strain.  But we rattle along just fine as we
    are, and I am comfortable with things as they are.
    
    Jane

    Reflections- this topic took me in several directions at once.
    
    I live in someone else's house.  He and I get along really well; but
    we're two independent adults and we don't schedule around each other
    except for certain activities (like, we're brewpartners, and we
    schedule that 'cause its a 3-hour job).  When we happen to be home at
    the same time, we'll include the other in dinner plans if interest is
    expressed; whoever cooks doesn't do dishes; laundry is kept separate
    and done separately; we live in separate ends of the house and try to
    keep clutter out of the common areas; we feed each other's animals if
    the other is gone (2 cats and a fishtank, total).  Cooperation, but
    independence.
    
    We recently recognized our own limitations and arranged for a
    housecleaner to spend 4 hours a week doing the stuff we hate; like the
    bathrooms and the windows, etc.  Total cost is less than $20 each per 
    week and well worth the price...
    
    For years, living alone, I was doing the 60 hour work weeks and coming
    home to the second shift.  Life was no fun; I wasn't cooking because
    I'd get too tired to plan, cook, and clean up, and I couldn't stand the
    mess, and I'd hate the bathroom, and the windows were filthy, and the
    catbox was outofcontrol...  I'm taking more time for me, now; and the
    result of relaxing about it all, instead of bearing down on it, is I'm 
    managing the day-to-day demands of living, commuting, etc, much more 
    successfully.  Things to be done aren't worth worrying about, they're
    just getting themselves done.  I can just imagine how adding kids or a
    spouse to the situation would upset my fragile equilibrium, though ;-).
    
    DougO

   Charlotte -- surely we're related?  I think I married your husband's 
brother.  

  I discuss this with my married sisters a lot.  Somehow, all three of us
bright professional women do a lot better managing our careers than our
housework . . .
   
   Even though our husbands are young and spout wonderful feminist theory
about equality in all things, they just don't SEE the things that need
doing around the house.  My husband has not (in six years of marriage) 
EVER gone grocery shopping by himself (even when I've been gone for two
weeks!), has never washed the dishes, cleaned the bathroom or paid the
bills on his own volition (he will if I ask him to).  I once did a 'test'
on how disgusting the bathroom would get before he actually NOTICED, but
I broke down first (I'm no fanatic for cleanliness -- it's good that the
Health Dept didn't see this one).  Somehow, without either of us planning 
it, all housework and finances are *my* responsibility; he will help me 
out if I ask -- as if he didn't really live there too. 

   Generally though, it's easier (on me) to do the work than to ask.  I
feel like his mother saying "Richard will you please take out the garbage?"
And I refuse to nag about it.  We have rational discussions about this
sometimes; he always agrees that he should do more . . .

   Barbi
   

    I like to keep my house (or apartment, or room, whichever the case
    may be) clean and neat enough so that I don't think other people
    will think we live like pigs, but I don't choose to waste enough
    of my life on housework to keep it spotless.  I think I actually
    have a higher tolerance for dust and animal hair than many people
    do, but I don't have an extremely high tolerance for clutter or
    real filth.  I like to have everything in it's proper place even
    if it is covered with a layer of dust! :-)  (I have a tendancy to
    collect nic-nacs, art objects, antique glass, etc., and then forget
    to dust it for months at a time.  It looks real pretty sitting there
    covered with dust.)
    
    Ironically, my ex-husband and I never quarrelled over sharing the
    household chores during our 12 yr. marriage.  However, we managed
    to find plenty of other things to fight about and eventually split
    up anyway.  
    
    My ex had/has a very high tolerance for clutter (and that's an under-
    statement), so I was always picking up after him and straightening
    up the house.  Eventually I would also get sick of the dust and
    dirt before he would, so I would wind up doing almost all of the
    cleaning, too.  But, sometimes it got pretty bad first.  (I don't
    think we washed the windows once the entire 7 yrs we lived in our
    house, and we often would head off for a day at the beach with the
    grass in our yard almost up to our knees!  Oddly enough, I remember
    that compatibility with nostalgia!)  He always did all the cooking,
    and I always cleaned up after.  I always took out the trash, did
    all the laundry, and handled paying all the bills.  I always fed
    the cats and took care of the kitty litter, and when we had two
    birds I always cleaned the cages and fed them.  He took care of
    his fish.  (I don't do fish.)  Sometimes we would both forget about
    the plants and some of them would die before we remembered them.
     I always did the packing for vacations (even *his* clothes) and
    he would load the car.  I always bought all presents and greeting
    cards, even for his family.  But, he always did maintenance to both
    cars, mowed the lawn, shoveled snow, and fixed every appliance that
    ever broke down.  When our daughter was small I did all the dirty
    work.  He said when I was pregnant that he would never change a
    diaper, and he never did.  I didn't care, though.  I enjoyed taking
    care of her, and I think I would have resented a husband who had
    butted in too much.  I realize now that when she was small I really
    thought of her as "my baby."  Also, my mother helped out a lot.
    And, Melissa has lived with her father since the divorce 4 yrs ago.
    
    Basically, I don't think I've been afflicted with the feeling that
    I have to have a perfect home, as so many women have.  I can fairly
    easily walk away from a mess and watch a movie, read a book, or
    go out, and I don't feel guilty.  (Maybe I'm just what others would
    consider a lazy slob, and I don't realize it.)
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .21
    
    Wish I could be a slob like you, Lorna . . . you're one of the most 
    "together" women I know . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    A male friend of mine once told me,"men have more physical strength
    and women more stamina". I am beginning to think that's a cop out.
    Fair is fair and I meet few men who are!!
    
    Kate 
    
    P.S. I said I meet few(not none)
    
    
    

    When I was about 10 years old my mother, who worked in a factory,
    was put on second shift - she had to work 4 to midnight.  This meant
    my father had to pitch in and help because there were 8 kids in
    the family.  My father got us up in the morning, dressed us, cooked
    breakfast and dinner, did the dishes, did the grocery shopping,
    laundry and ironing.  He also got us to pitch in and assigned everybody
    rotating chores and made contests out of who got their jobs done
    first - we had a lot of fun sometimes and gradually got into the
    habit of doing whatever was expected without being told.
    
    After about a year my mother was put back on the day shift.  My
    father continued doing a lot of the housework at first.  But then
    little by little my mother started complaining - the dishes had
    spots on them because he wasn't drying them before putting them
    away.  He stopped doing the dishes...  It was disgraceful that anyone
    could dirty so many pots cooking one little meal!  He stopped
    cooking...  How could you send those kids out wearing blue socks
    with a red dress?  He stopped dressing us, he stopped doing laundry,
    etc.  As for our chores, where my father would bring everyone into
    the bedroom to praise the one who made the bed right, it was never
    right in my mother's eyes - she would mutter and fuss as she unmade
    the bed and did it over, which always made me wonder why I should
    even bother in the first place.
    
    I'd say our housekeeping habits now (one brother, the rest girls)
    range from casual to outright slob (I fall somewhere in the middle
    :)...).  Nobody's hung up on housekeeping because we all see it
    as an unrewarding activity.
    
    Virginia
    (who will sign in as soon as she gets through all 206 introductions!)

    Re: .24
    
    I've heard that this can be a problem.  It's kind of a catch-22.  Women
    want men to share the work, yet housework has traditionally be part of
    a woman's identity.  Losing control over that aspect of one's identity
    could be very threatening.  A lot of the 'helpful hints' I've seen to
    working women say "Look, lower the standards and share the load or else
    wind up exhausting yourself.  Those are your choices; pick one."

    re: .25
    
    That advice seems to be right on to me -- except that they never
    tell you how difficult and guilt-producing it can be to lower your
    standards.  
    
    It's like you're sacrificing a part of your arm, or something.
    
    --bonnie

    Nor do They tell you that some men (but not any we know, right?)
    have discovered that if they do a job badly, they won't have to
    do it ever again....
    
    						Ann B.

    Ann !  Who's been talking ?!

Well, my father told me that one.
	Mez

    Not the Windex, but the Glass Works does a reasonable job on kitchen
    floor!

    I think Ann's and Mez's points are the significant ones here.
    I think it's no accident men do things badly. Do they clean
    their guns that way? Certainly it's harder to do something
    you haven't done before, but men should be willing to learn,
    shouldn't they? And willing to take constructive, supportive 
    criticism about their progress.
    
    Eileen
    

I tend to be very neat but have relaxed a bit since I living with 3
other people who have more tolerance that I do (and the last
girlfriend I had was a very messy).  We share chores and coooking. 
One of the things I have to accept is that others have either more
tolerance, less time, or whatever in doing their chores. But we do
have an agreement about who does what chores.  It's considered OK in
our house to say if you think something else that is not your
responsability needs cleaning (in a non-offensive way) or to mention
pet peeves if they really bother you.  For example, one of our
housemates is picky about keeping her cooking knives clean and dry at
all times.

I've tended to be neater than the women I've been in relationships
with.  In fact, in the last one, I would have to hold back from
cleaning up her place and accept that it wasn't my responsability
Personally, I beleive in keeping things neat and in place.  My motto
is "Don't leave a trace of your activites in common areas".

I think if I was married or living with someone, I'd have to be
careful to set things up so that things were equitable so that I
wouldn't resent doing a lot more that the other person.  I've found it
useful (as some others have mentioned) about being less obsessive
about neatness.  There seems to be a difference between obsessive
cleanliness and cleaning because it needs to be done.  I'll catch
myself cleaning sometimes because I'm upset.  That's fine (my sister
likes to vacuum when she's depressed) but I try to be careful not to
confuse that with thinking that everyone else is a slob.  I find
working around the house to be enjoyable if approached in the right
way.  I think there is joy to be had in the simple activities of life
like cooking and cleaning.  How often we rush around to "relax" later? 
I'm in a big hurry to relax and it's very stressful.  Sound familiar?

I wonder if I picked up some of my ideas about cleanliness from my
mother when she was strictly a housewife (until I was five). I find
myself carrying a lot of the communication and nurturing burdens too.
I'm reading the Feminine Mystique right now and I wonder if I ever
wanted to be a "househusband" if I'd need to be liberated?  ;-)   I
see a lot of the patterns!  Life is funny sometimes...

john

    re .33 (Brian Hetrick) -- I had to look real fast at your name to
    make sure this wasn't Ron replying!  Too true for us, too.
    
    However, in regard to "how" something is done rather than the results,
    it took me several years and many failures with my children and
    husbands to learn that the how wasn't important.  But somehow, once
    I admitted that, they still haven't learned that the results are.
    
    I no longer care how they wash the dishes, as long as the dishes
    are clean when they're done (don't even require that they be dried
    and put away, just clean).
    
    If someone is supposed to clean the bathroom, I don't care how they
    do it, but I do expect the counter will be free of loose hairs and
    the sink clear of globs of toothpaste when they're done.
    
    After 15 years of trial and error, I've learned how to say, "my,
    doesn't the sink look nice (or the floor shiny, or whatever)," but
    I still haven't learned how to communicate the "but the job's
    not done until...." without demoralizing my recruits.
    
    Free of bugs doesn't necessarily buy it, 'cause some of those critters
    are too small to see through normal means of inspection, but they
    sure can make their presence felt!
    
    Karen                             

    Re: .33 
    
    Brian,
    
    May you and all other beings be well and happy. (This is a saying
    from a Buddhist monk I once had as a teacher. I mean this, and
    I also feel it's necessary to say it because of the reaction of some
    men to my wish for a women's forum for women only.)
    
    >Do you think that instead of men having some manipulative plan
    to avoid housework...
    
    I don't think it's manipulative, Brian (and I didn't say that).
    I said it was political, which has a very different meaning
    than manipulative. I think it's unconscious actually.  
            
    And yes, I know men who have received supportive, constructive 
    criticism. The struggle for equality is difficult for both 
    sides, and I think gentleness is absolutely necessary.
    
    I don't think that men don't care about housework as long as 
    there's no bugs (my quotation may not be exact). I think contributions
    by men in this note alone are evidence to the contrary. I also
    don't think men and women are that different in personal 
    characteristics. I do know men have been socialized to see
    housework as women's work, and I know that it's hard to change
    the way in which one has been socialized.
    
    Simone DeBeauvoir said in After the Second Sex that she never
    shared living quarters with Sartre, because there would then
    be no equality, since whenever men and women live together
    women wind up with the housework. I though when I read this
    'Well, I think that's a sacrifice of intimacy. My domestic
    life is just bloody well going to be different.'
    
    Now I see this national study (can anyone tell me who did it?)
    proving DeBeauvoir's point exactly. It's very depressing.
    
    
    Eileen
    
    

    I don't think that anybody else has the right to demand that another
    person they live with has to do a certain household chores, except
    the parent of a child.
    
    All I ask, in that regard, of people that I live with is that they
    not demand that I do specific chores at specific times, and I won't
    demand that they do.  
    
    Of course, I don't think it's fair if a couple both works, for the
    husband to expect the wife to work all day, and then come home and
    do all the housework, and cook supper every night, and do all the
    laundry.  I don't think any husband has the right to expect or demand
    this from a wife.  I also don't think that a wife whose husband
    does not demand this, but who feels for some reason that she *has*
    to do all this if he won't help her, has the right to demand that
    her husband help her.  If he doesn't mind how well or how often
    she cleans the house, and doesn't bug her about it, then I don't
    think she has a right to bug him to help her all the time.
    
    I would never agree to live in a household (roommates, marriage,
    live-in boyfriend, whatever) where we were expected to each have
    separate, pre-agreed to chores that we *had* to do at a certain
    time.  I just can't live like that.  It's too much like being in
    the military.  Just not enough personal freedom.  I do NOT spend
    my weekends doing housework.  It's bad enough I have to work all
    week, instead of being able to do what I please, I'm certainly not
    going to give up my weekends to housework.  I just cannot accept
    the fact that any other human being has a right to tell me that
    I *have* to wash a floor, or a toilet, or cook them a meal.
    
    When I lived with my ex-husband I usually always ended up eventually
    doing all the housework because it would get to the point where
    I couldn't stand it anymore.  The man I live with now usually ends
    up doing all the housework because he is compulsive about cleanliness.
     Honestly, the way I see it is, if he cannot wait for me to clean
    something when I think it needs to be cleaned, then he is going
    to wind up doing it himself, because he has no right to come up
    to me and say, "I have decided that you must vacuum the house today."
     He's not my father, or my boss.  If he were to feel that it's not
    fair and wanted to talk about it, then I would say that I will agree
    to helping with the housecleaning, BUT not as often as he thinks
    it should be done.  I do not think houses need to be vacuumed on
    a daily basis.  He would just have to wait longer in between the
    cleanings of the bathroom, etc, and he can't stand to do that because
    he has to have everything spotless all the time and I don't.  
    
    What does bother me is if people leave their personal belongings
    such as clothes, shoes, make-up, mail, jackets, costume jewelry, etc.,
    strewn all over the communal areas of the house.  I was in one living 
    arrangement where that was a problem and it did drive me crazy.  I
    think people should keep their personal belongings, except maybe 
    magazines, in their rooms.  I don't think people should live like
    slobs but I just can't stand having someone nag me about doing
    housework either.  I think it is the fact that people have different
    standards and ideas about housework that creates the problem, and
    not the fact in most cases that the offending person just doesn't
    want to be fair or do their share.
    
    Lorna
    

    Not only men have been conditioned to see housework as women's work.
    Women also have been raised that way.  We're getting over it, but
    we aren't there yet.  Looking at my own family, the last three
    generations have gone thus: 
    Grandmother:  would rather DIE than undergo the shame of having a
      man pick up a dust mop or carry his own laundry to the machines.
      Sits up nights waiting for errant dust particles to stray into her
      domain (only partly jesting here).  Moans about the lot of Woman,
      whose work is never done.  Actively prevents any male from helping.
    Mother:  feels Dad should carry his share of the load, but experiences
      guilt on seeing him do it -- plus, he doesn't do it "right".  This 
      enables him to throw up his hands and say "see? I tried" and her to
      alleviate her own guilt by doing most of the work.
    Me: I'm a slob.  So's Ed.  Ed does at least his fair share of the
      housework -- I think.  I can't really tell, because I still have
      the vestiges of guilt for not taking full responsibility for "my"
      domain -- even though I mentally, logically, and emotionally (on
      most levels) reject it as being MY domain.  Luckily, so does Ed.
    
    Point is, it's not just the men, it's us too.  Imagine yourself in
    a household where the man has consistently done significantly more
    than half the daily household maintenance for some stable length of
    time.  How easy is it to picture the woman in your scenario:
    1.  Expecting praise for doing the work she does?
    2.  Expecting gratitude for doing a little more than she normally
        does?
    3.  Expressing pride that she's helping him with his work?
    
    This generality obviously has exceptions.  All I'm saying is, we
    all have a way to go in growing up on this issue.  IMO.
    Beth

    >All I ask, in that regard, of people that I live with is that they
    >not demand that I do specific chores at specific times, and I won't
    >demand that they do.  
    
    Wow can I relate to that! For the longest time I fought very hard to
    specifically not do things in routine, until I realized why I fought
    the idea so hard. My mother beleived that certain things *had* to be
    done at a paticular time in a paticular way. Every Saturday we had to
    clean our rooms in the morning. And it needed to take a certain ammont
    of time (or how could it be right?). 
    
    After realizing that, I realized that I could choose to do things in
    routine, but it was now my choice. If my SO chooses not to clean his
    house, I have no problem because I would never revert to insisting that
    something *had* to be accomplished, now. (excluding if company is
    coming, of course). I still can't dust & vacumm my bedroom on a regular
    basis, some memories go deep.
    
    Gail

    I don't recall that my mother ever taught anyone else to do housework -
    I don't for example know what brands of cleansers she uses, and every
    time she sees me do it she remarks that I stand on the opposite side of
    the ironing board than the one she uses, which she thinks is real odd
    (since we are both right-handed; I stand so that the skinny end is on
    my right).  After my father passed away, it occurred to me that I had
    better make an effort to copy down the various "old family recipes"
    that my mother had, before anything happens to her also; she did not
    teach me to cook so we cook very different sets of things.
    
    Maybe it seems compulsive to some people, but I like doing the various
    chores on a schedule.  That way they get done, and I don't have to try
    to find extra time to do them in.  For example, when I get home today,
    the white clothes laundry will be sitting in the dryer, ready to be
    folded up and put away.  This saves me from going around and counting
    up how many clean pairs of underwear are available before deciding to
    do the laundry, and doesn't take up a whole lot of time.  Every Thursday
    morning when I get up the laundry goes into the washer, and before I
    leave to come here, it goes into the dryer.  I'd hate to stick myself
    with a whole evening's worth of laundry by waiting until there were no
    clean clothes in the house - and it could end up that laundry would
    have to be done some time when I would rather, or have to, be doing
    something else.  I definitely don't leave all the "junk" for the
    weekends, either!  I do usually end up cutting the grass on the weekend
    since I am not often around during daylight on weekdays for long enough
    to do it, but I try to keep most of the routine stuff out of the
    weekend.  Of course I still end up with a big list of chores and
    errands about once a month, but that can't be helped (I try to get Paul
    to do the errands while I do chores, since I am taller than he is,
    which helps conquer a chore like "prune the hedge" - which didn't get
    done last weekend due to the rain and we are too busy to do this
    weekend - it's a jungle out there!).
    
    
    /Charlotte

    I managed to find the book in Booksmith over the weekend and have
    read a few chapters. This is a serious work of some consequence.
    The author combines somne of the style Gail Sheehy used in 'Passages'
    and 'Pathfinders' and some fine analysis of the scenarios she
    describes.  This  is a book to read and pass on and reflect on
    and read again.  
    
    

    An extract from ' The Second Shift ' by Arlie Hochschild follows below.
The extract is from the first chapter, pages 2-4, and sets the stage for
observations examined and detailed throughout the remainder of the
book.




" ...But they all agreed that it was hard to work two full-time jobs
and raise young children.

How well do couples do it? The more women work outside the home, the more
central this question.  The number of women in paid work has risen
steadily since before the turn of the century, but since 1950 the rise
has been staggering.  In 1950, 30 % of american women were in the labor
force; in 1986, it was 55%.  In 1950, 28 % of married women with
children between six and seventeen worked outside the home; in 1986, it
had risen to 68 %.  In 1950, 23 % of married women with children under
six worked.  By 1986, it had grown to 54 %.  We don't know how many women
with children under the age of one worked outside the home in 1950; it
was so rare that the Bureau of Labor kept no statistics on it.  Today half 
of such women do.  Two-thirds of all mothers are now in the labor force;
in fact, more mothers have paid jobs ( or are actively looking for
one) than non-mothers.  Because of this change in women, two-job families
now make up 58% of all married couples with children.
...

If more mothers of young children are stepping into full-time jobs outside
the home, and if most couples can't afford household help, how much more
are fathers doing at home?  As I began exploring this question I found many 
studies on the hours working men and women devote to housework and childcare.
One national random sample of 1,243 working parents in forty-four American 
cities, conducted in 1965-66 by Alexander Szalai and his co-workers, for
example, found that working women averaged three hours a day on housework
while men averaged 17 minutes; women spent fifty minutes a day of time
exclusively with their children; men spent 12 minutes.
...

In a 1983 study of white middle-class families in greater Boston,
Grace Baruch and R.C. Barnett found that working men married to working
women spent only three-quarters of an hour longer each week with
their kindergarten-aged children than did men married to housewives.
...

Szalai's study revealed the visible surface of what I discovered to be
a set of deeply emotional issues: What should a man and a woman contribute
to the family?  How appreciated does each feel?  How does each respond to
subtle changes in the balance of marital power?  How does each develop
an unconscious " gender strategy " for coping with the work at home,
with marriage, and, indeed, with life itself?  These were the underlying
issues.
But I began with the measurable issue of time.  Adding together the time it
takes to do a paid job and to do housework and childcare, I averaged estimates
from the major studies on time use done in the 1960's and 1970's, and
discovered that women worked roughly fifteen hours longer each week than
men.  Over a year, they worked an extra month of twenty-four days a year.
...

Most women work one shift at the office or factory and a "second shift"
at home.

    ".
    
    
           Anyone identify with this basic premise?