Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Because of the seemingly neverending violence against women I find 
    myself taking a number of precautions that I feel are commonsense
    precautions although someone else may feel I am somewhat paranoid.
    They mostly deal with being out at night.
    
    1.  I keep a baseball hat in my car and wear it when driving alone
        at night.  Seems to me, that I would be less likely to be
        harassed on the road if I appear to be a man behind the wheel.
    
    2.  I have a CB that connects to my cigarette lighter that I can
        call for help on if I need it.
    
    3.  I always drive with my doors locked and windows adjacent and
        behind me closed.
    
    4.  If I have to walk to my car in the dark I carry my keys ready
        to strike if needed.  I have also taken some self defense
        lessons.
    
    5.  I do not keep myself in at night, but do my best to never
        go out alone late at night unless necessary.
    
    6.  One thing I feel is very important.  Keep your car well maintained.
        The money spent to have a well running car could mean life or 
        death in more ways than one.  My biggest fear is breaking down
        on the highway.

    
    I guess I am idealistic about the situation. I take relatively few
    precautions and have actually done some pretty dumb things. I've
    gotten into cars with strangers and ended up doing some pretty
    distasteful stuff before I got out. That taught me not to do THAT
    again.
    
    When I'm walking in the dark, I usually walk briskly and purposefully.
    I REFUSE to let myself feel paranoid, but instead, just stay alert.
    I also tend not to carry money on me.
    
    I have found that I am far more vulnerable to men whom I do NOT
    consider strangers, than men whom I do. 
    
    The other thing... I've broken down on the highway a NUMBER of times.
    And every time, a police has pulled up in a respectable amount of
    time. So I tend to expect it, and don't have fears about the highway.

    I try to be conscious of safety.  Some of the things I try to
    do include:
    
    1. No walking around alone at night unless I feel absolutely safe.
    2. No jogging or bicycling alone under any circumstances at night.
    3. No hiking alone.  (I'd love the solitude but a woman is too
     vulnerable to be alone in the woods).
    4. Not going into isolated restrooms as in, "oh, its up the stairs
     through the corridor, down the hall on the left".
    5. Having someone, where possible, wait outside the door of a restroom
     for me.
    6. Always locking the car and checking the back seat before I get
     in.  Also driving with the car doors locked.
    7. Not talking, riding with, or going out with strangers.
    8. Being prepared at home just in case I heard someone breaking
     in, or woke to find someone standing above my bed.  BTW its a good
     practice to unplug all the phones from the wall before you go to
     bed, with the exception of the phone located closest to you.
     This is because someone could break in and tie up your phone (by
     dialing or connecting it another phone number) so you can't 
     dial out for help.
    9. Knowing how to defend myself.
    10. Never getting into an elevator alone.
    11. Asking service people who ring the door bell to show an I.D.
     before I'll open a door.
    12. Reporting annoyance or harrasment calls to the phone company.
     They do act swiftly and help push the Police to press changes.
    
    These are the one that come to mind.  I've always been safety
    conscious.  The one time I was attacked was in a well lighted
    crowded area with a friend.
     
    The sad thing is, that even with all the precautions you take,
    you will never be 100% safe.
                               

    Hi--
    
    The precautions listed so far are excellent!  It doesn't hurt to be
    prepared for anything.
    
    I teach karate and self-defense, and believe strongly in knowing how to
    defend myself.  Most of the self-defense I teach is plain old common
    sense, but these days you can't have too much of that.
    
    In addition to doing many things already listed, I try to be alert
    mentally at all times.  If I'm in a new/strange area, I size it up and  
    look for what could be used in a "fight or flight" situation--for
    example, if attacked one-on-one in a small room, I would have no
    problem with whipping off a high-heel and using the heel on the
    attacker's temple, throat, eyes, etc.  
    
    Sometimes when I have nothing better to do during a long and boring
    drive, I imagine self-defense situations, and what I would do to
    escape.  It's great for the mind, and wonderful for the confidence!   
     
    In this world, you do what you can to keep yourself and your own safe;
    other than that, you can't waste your life worrying.
    
    Jane

    I take basic precautions -- check the back seat of my car, get my door
    key out before I get to the door, don't go walking alone after dark,
    walk like I'm alert and I know where I'm going.  When my roommate was
    gone for a week, I got vaguely paranoid and slept with the phone on the
    ledge of my loft, right at hand.  I think the most important thing is
    to recognize the vulnerability of a situation so you're prepared to react 
    if necessary.  Also, if you're aware of the risks, you can choose whether 
    to accept them and then plan ahead.

    I always keep my car doors locked wherever I drive, and I always wear
    my seatbelt.  While driving, I check the rearview mirror often and
    keep tabs on the cars around me; I make a mental note of where the 
    nearest police or fire station is, should I happen to be followed.  
    I sleep with a blunt Japanese sword at my headboard, should someone 
    uninvited come in in the middle of the night.  I always lock my
    house doors and rarely go out alone at night.
    
    I work out to stay in tip top condition.
    
    And I also do something scary - I often imagine horrible situations
    where I am attacked or threatened, and I imagine ways to get out of
    them.  I think of all my available weapons and how to use them.
    
    Above all, I constantly remind myself *never* to panic should any of
    these situations arise.
    
    Carol
    

o  I probably won't go on a camping trip I had planned to the White 
   Mountain National Forest (where a female Digital employee's body 
   was recently found) next month.  My friends will try to persuade
   me to go and will probably call me paranoid, but I am just not 
   psyched about it anymore.

   Now that topic 708 has been closed, will someone please keep me 
   informed via mail as to the status of Pam Webb's case?  I don't 
   see myself making any more spontaneous trips alone to the LL Bean
   outlet in Freeport till I know the truck driver who's suspected 
   in other violent crimes is off the road, and Pam's murderer is 
   apprehended.

o  Last Tuesday a woman was stabbed to death at the MBTA station 
   (Alewife) that I use 2-3 times a week to get into Boston and 
   Cambridge.  Alewife is closest to the suburbs, is the newest, and
   (IMO) the nicest T station.  It is not in a bad section of town.
 
   According to the Boston Glob, there were signs of an initial physical 
   struggle from cuts on her arms.  She was eventually killed by a stab
   wound to her heart.  Suspect is a young oriental man who posed as an
   MIT student needing directions.  What infuriates me is how the Glob
   gives so little coverage to a brutal murder like this.  The only article 
   I've seen was a small fractured paragraph buried on page 26 in something 
   like the 'weekend events' news clips, while they give front page coverage
   to Dukakis budget and welfare programs being cut.  By the way, that's 
   how you can tell when the Glob thinks a story should be deemphasized...
   look at the fractured paragraph buried in the Metro/Local section pages.

   So now should I change the way I get into Boston and Cambridge?

   I always thought taking the T from Alewife was a relatively safe
   thing to do, compared to driving around, not knowing where parking
   can be found and risking having to park far away from my destination.

My choices and actions are being directly affected by these crimes!

Or should I just ignore the fact that a woman was murdered at the same place
and time when I am often at the same T station, and should I just try to 
forget that a woman's body was dumped where I was planning on hiking next
month?

What are the reasonable "boundaries of fear" to have in this situation?

Who am I suppose to look to for help and information? 

The Glob doesn't follow up on the cases.
These small town police chiefs don't care about our safety either...

They [generalizing, but from direct experience] think the risk of 
violence should keep women off the streets at night and at home 
... where they belong.

							nancy b.

    I have read all the previous notes, and generally think they are
    just dandy.
    
    So I guess my attitude is a bit fatalistic.  I try to be alert,
    and stay the h*ll out of places I don't think I ought to be in,
    and I keep my car doors locked when I drive and look into the backseat
    and all that good stuff [my car is soooooo itsy that the mugger
    would not fit in unless he was under 4'10" and minus 1 arm].
    
    I live alone.  There are dangers there, but I know that if I begin
    to enumerate them in my head, or listen to the 40 year old frame
    groan and worry if I was in danger of molested, I would wind up
    spending my nights sleeping with my 8 yr old grandson in his house
    because I would scare myself to death.
    
    I hike alone.  And with a woman friend older than me.  [yes, children,
    there are several out there who are still alive]  And I don't intend
    to stop, because if I do, then I cut myself off from the source
    of deep pleasure which keeps my soul happy.  And yes, I know the
    dangers, and yes, I try to be sharp.  But I will be dam*ed if I
    give into fears of "what might happen".
    
    I have worked for the Rape and Assault Comm. in Nashua, and there
    is no guarantee that you are safe *ANYWHERE* if anyone wants to
    harm you badly enough.  
    
    I travel alone, and keep my car in top condition.  but cars still
    have breakdowns, and I know enough to sit and wait for the best
    help available.  But I won't stop traveling just for fear the car
    is going to traitor me and put me in danger.
    
    I go to school in Cambridge in the evenings fall and winter.  I
    use Alewife and the T.  I will not allow myself to be cowed into
    fearing so much for my safety I find someplace closer.  
    
    I will not be frightened out of living as I please.  
    
    I may someday have cause to remember those words.  But I have been
    raped, and I have been threatened by a stranger, and I have been
    in a few tight places.  And I didn't let, and will not let,
    that color my life to the
    point I live afraid of when it might perhaps, happen again.
    
    M 

    

    Related version-1 topic:
    
    Note 214, 90 replies, Fear.
    
    DougO

re: .1

> 1.  I keep a baseball hat in my car and wear it when driving alone
>     at night.  Seems to me, that I would be less likely to be
>     harassed on the road if I appear to be a man behind the wheel.

A baseball hat's an interesting idea for camouflage...

Since I very frequently drive alone at night, I had all windows and
rear window on my car tinted in Florida before moving north - commercial 
grade 5 tint.  You can barely see anything through it from the outside in
full sunlight, and can definitely see nothing from the exterior of the car
at night.  It cost $75 for the entire car, which was more than usual because 
the back windshield is very curved, which requires more time to tint.

In Florida, almost all cars have tinted glass as dark as mine, but here
(Eastern MA) very few cars have any tint at all ... which makes the car
attract much more attention than I would like it to (which conflicts with
the original intent of having it the tint applied!)

Another small problem in MASS is that it is illegal to have tint as dark 
as mine.  I've only been pulled over once by a small town cop with nothing
better to do...The trick to getting out of this situation is to just not
admit the tint is too dark (despite the swatch of the darkest legal tint
a car can have, that he happens to have with him, that proves beyond a doubt
that your tint is too dark).  Discuss your reasons for getting your car
tinted in the first place (you drive alone at night and don't want the
fact that you're a woman driving alone to be obvious to everyone on the
road), and that you know that, if pulled over by a police officer, you
would immediately completely roll down your window so their view is not
obstructed, and that you and your dark tint don't pose any threat to MASS
police.  Just don't agree with the cop and admit your tint is too dark...
if you do, you have then given the cop a moral dilemma - their job is 
to uphold the law (and write tickets to those who break it!).  

							nancy b.

    Re: .11
    
    Dark tinting car windows is illegal in many other states as well,
    including Maine and New Hampshire.
    
    			Steve

    re .11
    
    And Digital isn't really big on our using their resourses for condoning
    illegal acts. Therefor I take your description of your car as just a
    description and not a sugestion that others do the same. 
    
    Gail

    The reason for the law limiting how dark a windshield can be is to
    make  it  easier  to see out of the car. Given your description fo
    how dark it is, I worry about it at night. This is a long standing
    battle.  Ralph  Nader  talks  about the dangers of tinted glass in
    "Unsafe at Any Speed" which was written in the 60's.

--David

    re: .14
    
    No, the reason for NH's anti-tinting law is that it's dangerous
    for policemen who have to approach a stopped car and can't tell
    what kind of drug-running gangster has a gun pointed at their
    heads. 
    
    That was the only rationale given when the law was introduced and
    the only one mentioned when the law was passed last winter.
    
    --bonnie

    The comment about wearing a baseball cap while driving at night
    reminded me of something I did years ago when I was young and a
    newlywed.  My husband was in the Navy and spent several nights 
    a week away.  I was very insecure, far away from home and scared
    to death every night. 
    
    One day I found a huge pair of muddy work/motorcycle boots at the
    trash dumpster and the idea hit me to take the boots and just set
    them on the front porch.  I figured the boots would possibly deter
    anyone from wanting to mes around with that apartment.  Psycho-
    logically, for me, it did the trick.  I slept great from then on.
    
    Jodi-
    

    Time Magazine (last week, I believe) had a brief article on an
    inflatable male doll that is being sold as a car companion for women
    driving alone. A guy came up with the idea after some women friends of
    his had their car tailgated by a car full of guys.
    
    The doll is called "buddy" or something similar, and has been selling
    like crazy to not only women but also police departments and the
    military. Cost about $400 a bod I think.
    
    --Lynn
    

    re: .18 and following a police officer to the station rather
    than getting out of the car or even opening the window fully:
    
    My feeling is that we just cannot be too careful.  This concern
    was confirmed by a really chilling news story earlier this year.
    There had been a series of murders/disappearances in the southern
    Calif. area.  To make a long story short, they finally identified
    the alleged assailant.  He alleged committed the crimes while 
    a uniformed police officer!  He was therefore able to get young
    women to stop their cars, open windows, and even get out of the
    car.  He was identified in much the same way as Ted Bundy...
    by the descriptions of a few *very* lucky women who escaped his
    clever trick.  That must have been an interesting investigation
    by the police department...how did they know who should be trusted
    with info about the investigation?
    
    I have a couple of times felt that I was being followed by another
    car as I drove alone late at night.  If the car following me continued
    to follow as I made a few unusual turns, I proceeded to the local
    police station and the other car was suddenly nowhere to be seen.
                                                    
    	Pennie

    I was once stopped on the Palisades Parkway by a man in an
    unmarked car with flashing light.  The man showed a badge when
    he came to the side of my car.  I did not open the window 
    completely.  He said he was off duty and that he had seen he
    hubcap fly off my car and that he would be willing to help me
    look for it because he saw where it went into the bushes.  I
    politely told him I would check it upon arriving at my
    destination, thanked him and left.
    
    The one thing that I knew and he didn't was that the car I was
    driving (a Volvo) has screwed on hubcaps!  When I arrived at my
    destination all four hubcaps were in place!

    I got followed by a man in a big blue car on Tuesday while I was
    driving to work along a rural road near the plant.  He caught up
    with me at a traffic light, pulled up in the other lane,
    
    and shouted through his open window, "How do I get to Nashua
    Center?" in the most pathetic and helpless tone I've heard in a
    long time . . . 
    
    Fortunately the directions were easy enough that I could just
    shout back. 
    
    --bonnie

re: .14 (David Wittenberg)
    ----------------------

>   The reason for the law limiting how dark a windshield can be is to
>   make  it  easier  to see out of the car. Given your description fo
>   how dark it is, I worry about it at night. 

Tint is *not* applied to the front windshield.  It is applied to all 
windows and the back windshield.  My reply  in .11 describes how 
it is difficult to see from the outside --> in; i.e., though the tint 
is technically not reflective, it is easier to see out from the inside, 
than to look in from the outside.

David - you can judge for yourself.  At your party on the 18'th I'll
take you on a brief excursion, OK?  Yea, I *guess* Cynthia can sit in
between us (if she insists!) :-).

And regardless of what Mr. Nader says, the fact that so many cars in 
Florida have tint as dark as mine - or darker - and do not pose danger to 
others on the road *or* to highway police tells me that this is yet 
*another* area of our lives that the state doesn't need to regulate!

						    nancy b.

Mario Carol:
    
>    In any case, if followed, don't go home, head for a Police station
>    or whatever is nearby - with tons of people walking around.

What I have always wondered is - what do you do if you are walking?

I remember a terrifying incident when I was 11 - I was walking home
from the convenience store about 4 blocks away at about 9 at night.
(I know, I shouldn't have been awalking alone at night at 11 years
old - but I didn't know that, and my Dad had told me to be home before
dark, or he wouldn't have let me out at all.)  Anyway, a car followed 
me, and the guy rolled down his window and offered me a ride.  I 
politely refused and crossed to the other side of the street, but he
kept following.  Very scared, I ducked behind some bushes, and he
stopped the car and got out, and started walking toward me.  So I just
stood up and bolted, but I knew I shouldn't run home, because then he
would know where I lived, and I was often there alone.  What I ended
up doing was running about 4 houses past mine, going into their backyard,
and climbing fences back to my house.

It's amazing how quickly an 11 year old girl can climb 7 foot fences
in the dark when she is scared out of her mind!

So...assuming you *do* end up walking alone..is it better to risk getting
caught running somewhere other than home, or risk the person knowing
where you live?

I guess I should have learned my lesson, but even as recently as 4 years
ago I was hitchiking with strangers.  Maybe someday I'll talk about the
event that stopped me from doing *that*!!

D!

    
    
    	I was on my way home on evening from work.  Driving home
    	on Rte 3.  Well this guy in jeep passed me and waved.
    	I waved back as a polite gesture.  The traffic in my lane
    	sped up a little and so did I, so I ended up passing him.
    	Well he must have thought I was playing a game or something
    	because he passed me again and smiled.  This happened a couple
    	more times, only because of the way the traffic was moving.
    	(anyone who drives Rte 3N knows what I'm talking about)
    	The last time he mouths to me "Do you want to pull over?"
    	I nodded my head no and floored it to pass him and get
    	onto my exit.  (My fiance was a few cars behind me
    	but took a different exit to pick up some supper)  Well
    	this guy ALSO took my exit.  Now I'm getting nervous.
    	So I did about 20mph over the speed limit.  When I reached
    	the end of the street I decided that I had best not
    	go home, so I turned to head in the opposite direction
    	to find Cary and Kentucky Fried Chicken. Fortunately,
    	the guy did not follow me.  Still scared me to death
    	though.  I just didn't want him to find out where I
    	lived.
    
    	JJ
    

    What a coincidence, I'm glad I read this file so I was on the ready.
    I was driving out of Boston on Route 2 and this guy in a red chevy
    pickup comes up along side me real fast honking and gesturing like
    crazy.  I gave him a scowl, and he stayed along side me honking.
    The car was driving fine, so I flipped him off without looking.
    He then proceeded to swerve into my lane, as if to force me off
    the road, or maybe he was out of control.  So I laid down on the
    horn.  A state trooper came by and the guy drove on.  Unfortunately
    the trooper didn't stop.  When I got home I checked out the car.
    One hub cap was gone, but it may have been missing for a while.
    The guy had been really distraught as if my car were about to blow
    up.  Suspicious.

    Once when living in Lowell I got chased by three drunk guys across
    the street from my house.  Unfortunately they were between me and
    the house.  It was very scary.  I ended up cornered in between two 
    buildings and they passed me by.  Probably noone would have come out
    if I had screamed.  I decided that if necessary I would throw a
    rock through someone's window to get their attention and do the
    explaining later.

    I have a sense for dangerous situations and avoid them.  What
    makes me nervous is people out of control, like drunks or unstable
    people, and anywhere there is not an escape route and other people 
    around.  I also hate falling asleep when I am the only one home, 
    and have difficulty doing so.  These things make me believe in
    the death sentence even though I have a predispostion to being a 
    "bleeding heart liberal".  Why should the rest of us have to live 
    in fear?
    	Linda
    	( I think it should be done only by injection though).

    Once I was driving Rte 20 east from Atlanta which is a divided
    4 lane highway (2 lanes each way), and this mac truck started playing
    games of staying right along side me, no matter what speed I was
    going.  Route 20 is a lo-o-ong sloping highway with the exits far
    apart and there were no other cars in sight.  I was driving this 
    tiny Honda in the left lane.  He wouldn't let me pass or drop behind.
    Eventually I managed to get behind him and he slowed to about 35
    mph.  Luckily we came up to a tourist information center and at the last
    minute I cut over to it.  20 minutes later I came around the bend
    and there was this truck at the side of the road waiting.  I floored
    it and the hills were just enough to keep him from catching me.
    	Linda

    Re: .23 (heading for the police station...)
    
    Years ago I worked as a DJ at a very popular night club in 
    Southern California.  I was followed home on several occasions.
    
    My policy was to head for the nearest donut shop.  There was
    always two or three patrol cars parked out front.  I never
    had anyone hassle me beyond that point, in fact I never had 
    to get out of my car once I reached the donut shop.  My strategy
    proved to be very effective.
    
    One night though, my husband had stayed at the club 'til closing.
    He walked me out to the car and then headed toward his.  I let 
    him leave the parking lot first and I followed.  As we were driving
    home I noticed I was being followed by a car that had also been
    in the parking lot.  The car followed me all the way to *inside*
    my garage!  Because we had just moved in, we had a lot of boxes piled
    up in the garage so my husband parked his car around the corner.  
    I'm sitting in my car trying to figure out what to do.  The guy
    in the car had a large German Shepard in the car with him.  I decided
    to wait for my husband to come around the corner.  Boy was he 
    surprised to find this guy in the garage.  My husband walked toward 
    the guy and said in a gruff voice, "GOOD BYE", the guy didn't budge.  
    He walked a little closer and said it again, nothing.  The third
    time, my husband raised a fist at him and hit the guys hood and
    the guy quickly backed out, never to be seen again.  Whew! what
    a weird situation.
    
    Jodi-
    
    

    Jodi, you reminded me of something that happen along time ago. 
    I had forgotten it until now.
    
    One night I went to visit a girlfriend and had my dog with me. 
    A BIG Shepard, he went over 100 lbs.  Well, being the way woman
    are when we get together time went by very fast and buy the time
    we looked at the clock it was around 3:00 am.  
    
    I was living in the city at the time and being raised there didn't
    mind driving alone or worry about the time.  
    
    As I was driving there was a car with a couple of guys pulling up
    to me and then backing off.  I knew that something was going to
    happen.  But just kept looking ahead.  They were yelling out the
    window and making all kinds of jesters with their hands.   My dog
    was laying down in the back seat of the car.. and being trained
    for different hand movements and sounds he didn't move.  
    
    Knowing he was there helped alot.  Anyway, I come to this red light...
    (I wasn't happy about it either) and along comes the car.  They
    pulled right next to my door, close enough that I couldn't open
    the door if I wanted to.  The guy on the passenger side reaches
    over to try the handle, with that I snapped my fingers... all of
    a sudden this BIG head came up off the back seat and just showed
    his teeth... I don't know what moved faster, the kids hand or their
    car.  
    
    I sat there and laughed so hard I almost got another red light...
    I gave my baby the biggest hug and had him sit in the front sit
    all the way home.  
    
    I'm sure they shook all the way home, it was something they won't
    forget for awhile.... either will I now....  :-)
    
    Hc

    
    I've been followed several times and have always been extra paranoid
    because of things that have happened to friends and acquaintances.  The
    first time I was followed is my most memorable and humbling experience.
    It happened a couple of months after I got my car.  I was driving home
    at midnight and noticed headlights in my rearview mirror.  Right on my
    tail.  Was I going too slow?  Nope, doing the speed limit.  But this
    was a six lane road and no other cars around to prevent him from
    passing, so I slowed down to "force" him to pass me.  Well, he slowed
    down too.  From 45 to 25.  So I sped back up.  He matched me.  I
    changed to the center lane.  He moved behind me.  I sped beyond the
    speed limit.  So did he.  I changed back to the right lane.  Right
    behind me again.  Slowed down.  So did he.  By then my heart was about
    to beat out of my chest.  Ahead of me I saw a firestation and I semi-
    calmly decided to pull in and give my horn the test of its little life.
    At that moment, on the car behind me, these blue and red cherries
    blossomed full, then the car moved around and *beyond* me at an
    incredible speed.  I pulled over and started laughing and crying
    hysterically.  To this day, I often think of the earful I would have
    given John Law if he had decided to pull me over after all that.
    
    Maybe he was checking out my vanity plates.
    
    Carol

    
    
    	I woulda been p***ed!!!  I also would have called
    	the police station.  They have no right to scare
    	someone like that.
    
    	But I admit I would have been relieved first.
    
    	JJ
    

    
    great stories, all of them.
    
    several years ago, coming back from an echo & the bunnymen concert,
    i was in a T station with my date waiting for the next outward bound
    train.  bunch of old drunks down there, seeing as it was warm. 
    i didn't mind in the least bit, but my date was scared witless of
    them.  the two of us walked away from them, and talked to keep others
    from approaching.
    
    i don't worry when by myself, but these stories remind me that my
    presence can be menacing late at night, no matter how innocent i
    may be.
    
    jonathan

re: 735.188 (Peggy Leedberg)    -< Control ALL men's bodies >-

The last few replies in that discussion (control over men's bodies vs
control over women's bodies -> Two-Legged Incubators) reminds me of a quote
by Indira Gandhi.  Paraphrasing, it went something like -

     In a certain locality, women were being attacked by men in record
     numbers.   The equivalent of the town government suggested
     banning women from the streets there at night.  Indira would
     have nothing of it - she said that if men were the ones doing
     the attacking, the *men* should be banned from the streets at
     night.  Not the women.



What a wonderful hallucination - no men on the streets while walking at
night, no men in the parks while jogging at night, no men in parking
garages to worry about when returning to your car from the T at night,
no men on the highways murdering women in broken-down cars.

What freedom!  And no more fear.  Like I said, a hallucination.

                                                       nancy b.

    Not true Nancy.   By your definition, with men locked up there would
    be no more fear... yes, a halicination....
    
    I am pretty sure that males do not have a corner on the market of
    fear...
    
    YES MEN do inflick alot of fear, but NOT ONLY men.
    
    I also feel th{t that is a rather sexist comment. 
    
    IMHO that is... as a male...

    	RE: .37  AMARTIN
    
    	> YES MEN do inflick alot of fear, but NOT ONLY men.
    
    	She was talking about her own feelings, so it's completely up
    	to *her* to decide who (and what) inspires her fear.  It's not
    	up to you.
    
    	> I also feel th{t that is a rather sexist comment. 
    
    	I felt that your reaction to her comment was rather sexist.
    
    	IMHO, of course.

    Al, I realise...I'd guess Nancy realises too...that the only people who
    have anything to fear from *you* on a dark street are the would-be
    muggers/rapists themselves.  
    
    But not all men are like you, or Brian, or the other men of our
    community.
    
    You are technically right in insisting that unsafe streets are not due
    solely to males, but the imbalance is, as Brian pointed out, *SO*GREAT*
    that for you to insist on the letter of the distinction borders on the
    insensitive.                                       
    						=maggie

    re .36 the trouble with the idea is that *only* law abiding
    males would stay off the streets. The wolves, aware that 
    most of the people on the streets were female (read smaller
    and less capable of defense,) would feast.
    
    Dana

    Dana,
    
    It was the awareness of the impossibility that let Nancy to call
    it an hallucination.
    
    							Ann B.
    
    P.S.  I thought the story was told of Golda Meir.

    And of course women never commmit crimes of violence, let alone
    against other women . . . 
    
    --bonnie, who's been beaten up twice, both times by groups of
    women

    RE40:  Maggie.  After rereading my entry, you are once again, I
    was rather course wasnt I... Nancy?  I apologise.  I got my point
    across, but it wast tactful.... again, sorry.
    
    RE39: Suzanne, it would apear that you AND I need a lesson from
    Maggie in tact.  Ever hear the phrase "you can get more bees with
    honey that you can with Vinegar?
    
    I NEVER said it WAS UP TO ME.  I was stating an opinion (rather
    abrasively but thanks to Maggie, ill learn next time)
    
    Please dont read between my lines, I dont write that way.  I write
    what I mean.  Maybe not gramaricaly perfect, tactfully, or even
    nice.. BUT I DO write what I mean.  If I ment that what nancy felt
    was completely wrong, and that I thought she ought to change her
    feelings, I'd have said that.  Again Nancy, I am sorry.
    
    

    	RE: .44  AMARTIN
    
    	Well, I'm glad to see you apologize to Nancy, but judging by
    	your remarks to me, I doubt that you understand why I reacted
    	to you the way I did.
    
    	Your spelling, grammar, and even relative lack of tact isn't
    	what bothered me.
    
    	Nancy should be able to make a statement about what it would
    	be like to *imagine* eliminating the threat of attack from men
    	without worrying that her remarks will be labeled as "sexist"
    	by you if she doesn't include some huge disclaimer (about the fact
    	that *not* every single act of violence in this world is committed
    	by men.)
    
    	If you can refrain from jumping in with unfair labels like "sexist" 
    	against the comments of identifiable individuals, you won't have to 
    	worry about similar objections from me, usually.

    I beg to differ, I think that you would still find error with my
    entries..
    But thats ok.
    
    As for Nancy having to make disclaimers... what the hell do you
    think I have to do almost ALWAYS?  Why is it that I havent written
    in over a year?  I read, just didnt write.  Actually, thats a lie
    also.  I wrote many, many, many times... but would delete it for
    FEAR of being judged sexist. 
    
    I have it on good authority that many persons entering this file
    to read, write and then delete for the same fears....
    
    Trying to understand, discuss, be sensative to others feelings,
    AND watch out for attacks isnt an easy job.
    
    Thats why I am usually out in the readers zone.
    
    And I do understand why you reacted the way you did.  It is the
    way you are.  You see someone (usually male) taking a stance different
    from yours, you react.  Fine, sometimes it is justified.
    
    I made an error speaking the way I did to Nancy.  I understnad that,
    and I would have even understood and ACCEPTED your telling me so.
    IF, IF MIND YOU, you were to use the finess of Maggie's entry.
    
    She pretty much told me that I was a boob for saying what I said
    and I was, but its how she said it that matters... thus, how I respond.
    
    

So, I tried to think about the last time I was afraid of a woman.

There was my mom. And, on occasion, my boss. That's about all I can think of.
And the latter isn't any sort of fear of physical or even emotional abuse. It's
just because I'm a very paranoid person.

Do women get afraid of other women? In dark streets?
	Mez

    	RE: .46  AMARTIN
    
    	> As for Nancy having to make disclaimers... what the hell do you
    	> think I have to do almost ALWAYS? 
    
    	Funny, but I didn't notice your disclaimer in the note where you
    	called Nancy's remarks "sexist" (unless you are referring to the
    	"IMHO" at the end.)  Well, I used "IMHO" in my note to you, too.
    
    	> [Maggie] pretty much told me that I was a boob for saying what I 
    	> said and I was, but its how she said it that matters... thus, how I 
    	> respond.
    
    	Well, how about if I just "ditto" what Maggie said to you, and
    	we leave it at that.

    What I find disturbing about Nancy's "hallucination" is the notion
    that instilling fear is the only attribute of men, and that they have
    no other value.  Sadly, I know that some women feel this way, but I
    know that most do not.
    
    I understand, as best as I am able without actually sensing it
    myself, Nancy's fear of men, the theme of which runs like an obsession
    through her notes.  I do what I can to help her heal, even if by nothing
    else than by being supportive and caring.
    
    Fear is a terrible affliction in this world, and those that inflict it
    are abhorrent.  But nothing is universally bad, nor universally good.
    Understanding that, and learning how to manage the risks of the
    real world, are keys to enjoying life.
    
    			Steve

                 (I was over my head in work this afternoon)

          re: .37  (Allan Martin)
              -------------------

               >  Not true Nancy.

          A hallucination is neither true or false, as in the sense of a
          fact.  The imagery was true for me, in that it happened.  It was
          real.

               > By your definition,

          I did not "define" anything; I *described* my experience.  I
          wanted other women to think about how things might be different
          for them, living in the imaginary world I described.

               > with men locked up

          I did not use the term "locked up".  I explained where men
          couldn't be.  In my hallucination, men were told to stay at home
          (where they belong) at night, and they magically all did what
          they were told, out of respect for women who wanted to be out at
          night, free from fear.


               > with men locked up there would be no more fear...
               > yes, a halicination....

          Yes, I did say it was a hallucination.


               > I am pretty sure that males do not have a corner on the
               > market of fear...


          Let's look the statistics entered in 525.78  by John Heffernan.


                          Victims/100K         Offenders/100K
                            M     F               M      F

               Murder       16    4               7      1
               Rape         20  200              13      .1 (not stat      
                                                            significant)
               Robbery    1000  400              55      4
               Assault    1400  600              92     14


          Allan, I am not a financial or marketing type, but IMHO, I would
          call that "cornering the market".


               > YES MEN do inflick alot of fear, but NOT ONLY men.

          You really puzzled me with this one...  My first thoughts were,
                         (I think inside of square brackets)
          [Well, who in the world else does he think incites fear in me
          (and other women) besides men?  Does he really mean to imply
          *women* cause fear to any significant degree?  (hmmm...or maybe
          he meant snakes and creepy crawly bugs and spiders and also :-)]

          [What woman have I *ever* feared?]


          Not my mother, not any female boss I've ever had, and not any
          woman I've encountered on the street.  After a couple of minutes
          of probing long-term memory, I came up with one - my second-grade
          teacher.  She was very demanding and strict (I called her "mean"
          then), and I feared her because I was desparately wanted to be
          good enough to earn her respect, *not* because I was afraid she
          would physically harm me...

          Compared to the number of  men I have feared - 
          ("fear" is not the right word to describe all situations)

          o hesitation in being alone (for whatever reason) with a man I do
          not know

          o alarm when I don't recognize the man knocking at my door if my
          housemates are not home

          o dread...terror... over seeing a male gyn when I absolutely had
          to see someone quickly and no female gyns were accepting new
          patients or had time that week

          o distrust of any male stranger that would offer help if my car
          broke down

          o not being able to completely relax with a new male acquaintance
          because I don't know him well enough to decide if he's worthy of
          my trust

          o a small degree of wariness over meeting male =wn=ers for the
          first time because I realize they could have been offended or
          angered by what I write here

          o anxiety and futility when the men/teenagers playing bball in
          Cambridge whistle or make remarks at me when I walk by on the way
          to a meeting

          o suspicion of any man following my car along the narrow, twisty,
          infrequently-used New England roads for longer than 5 minutes
          after 10pm.

          o trepidation of any man or group of men I encounter in parking
          garages at any time when I'm alone

          o and, of course, at a heightened state of alertness walking
          alone at night anywhere; fear when passing a male or group of men


               > I also feel th{t that is a rather sexist comment.

          Is it sexist to say: if I knew I would not encounter men in
          public places at night, I would be relatively free of fear?


              > IMHO that is... as a male...

          Yes, I understand that it must be difficult for you, a man, to
          understand female fear.


          re: .38 (Brian Hetrick)
              ------------------

               > Al,
               > Are you willing to accept a 92 to 98% reduction in danger,
               > and a 96 to 99.5% reduction in fear?

          These numbers sound accurate to me Brian.  I would be most
          willing to accept them.

          In this imaginary world, I am still aware that women could commit
          crimes against other women at night, but I am ... 99.4% ... for
          all intents and purposes, free of fear, in the dream.

          Why?  Because I feel like such an easy target for men whose
          hormones cause their muscles to be 2.5 times stronger than mine.
          It has been proven to me that I (who's very strong for a woman)
          can't physically defend myself against a man of average strength
          who is somewhat aware of what women learn in self-defense
          classes.



          re: .41 (Dana Charbonneau)
              ---------------------

              > re .36 the trouble with the idea is that *only* law abiding
              > males would stay off the streets. The wolves, aware that
              > most of the people on the streets were female (read smaller
              > and less capable of defense,) would feast.

          Uh-uh.  In this world (to expound further), the wolves and wild
          things remain in their abodes because of a powerful force-field
          surrounding them after the sun goes down.  They can not leave.



          re: .42 (Ann Broomhead)
              ------------------

               >  -< She *can* smell the coffee, y'know. >-
               >  It was the awareness of the impossibility that let Nancy
               >  to call it an hallucination.

          Exactly; thanks, Ann.

          I understand ours to be a relatively free society, and that my
          imagery could *never* become a reality.  I did not *advocate*
          banning men after dark as the "right" solution to the problem.

          It's just tiresome to always hear what *women* shouldn't do,
          where we shouldn't go, when we shouldn't be out, what we
          shouldn't wear, how we should conduct ourselves, etc. in order to
          reduce our risk of being attacked.

          The subject <Control ALL men's bodies> in 735.188 incited some
          "what-if" thinking in me.  I merely shared those thoughts.



          re: .43 (Bonnie Randall Schutzman)
              ------------------------------

              > And of course women never commmit crimes of violence, let
              > alone  against other women . . .

          I did not say that, but it is not in my paradigm of what I
          consider likely occurrences for me to find myself in.  Of course
          women commit crimes of violence...But if this were all I had to
          fear at night I would still describe myself as being relatively
          free of fear.

               > --bonnie, who's been beaten up twice, both times by groups
               > of women

          Bonnie, I am *very* curious about the circumstances and
          motivations of these attacks.  If you have no objections, could
          you share it here or to me via email?

          Because of these attacks, do you fear women in certain
          situations?  Like MEZ, this concept is a new one to me.


          re: .44 (Allan Martin)
              -----------------

              > I was rather course wasnt I... Nancy?  I apologise.

          Apology accepted.

              > RE39: Suzanne, it would apear that you AND I need a lesson
              > from Maggie in tact.
              > Ever hear the phrase "you can get more bees with
              > honey that you can with Vinegar?

          Speak for yourself, Allan, not for Suzanne.  You sound
          patronizing.  I'm sure many men would prefer women voice all
          opposition to their views in a sugar-sweet, demure, tentative
          manner...aka, with honey instead of vinegar.

              > Again Nancy, I am sorry.

          One apology really is enough Allan :-).  I'm not one to hold
          grudges or get upset over this type of thing (it takes a lot to
          upset me, I'm tough :-).  I'd rather hope to think I've
          enlightened you.


          re: .46 (Allan Martin)
              -----------------

               >   As for Nancy having to make disclaimers... what the hell
               >   do you think I have to do almost ALWAYS?

          I guess I could've used a disclaimer like IMHO.  I *did* think
          about it, but decided it unnecessary because a hallucination is
          obviously an experience and not a fact or statement of truth.  I
          thought it was clear I was speaking only for myself since I was
          describing *my* experience.


               >    I made an error speaking the way I did to Nancy.  I
               >    understnad that,  and I would have even understood and
               >    ACCEPTED your telling me so. IF, IF MIND YOU, you were
               >    to use the finess of Maggie's entry.

          I disagree that entries made by women who oppose men's viewpoints
          should be made with "finesse".  While I appreciated the "finess
          of Maggie's entry", I also find it atypical and refreshing for a
          woman like Suzanne Conlon to bluntly call the shots as she sees
          them, with none of the traditionally feminine soft and careful
          way of wording that [some] men feel more comfortable with.

                                                       nancy b.

          re: (.50) Steve Lionel
              ------------------

               > I understand, as best as I am able without actually
               > sensing it myself, Nancy's fear of men, the theme of which
               > runs like an obsession through her notes.

          Thank you for confirming one of my biggest worries I've had about
          writing and sharing in =wn=... (said somewhat angrily and
          sarcastically).

          I've been warned by another male =wn=er that the tones of my
          notes can get so harsh that I should be careful lest I risk being
          discounted by the community as being lunatic or too "fringe".
          I didn't agree with him, and felt comfortable discussing my
          thoughts and feelings on very personal matters.   I feel I've
          been thusly labeled and discounted by you.

          I am offended you implicitly judged me as obsessed with fear.
          I'm offended you merely used the word in a sentence with
          reference to my notes.  I am not obsessed with fear!  I am very
          aware of risks, but I nonetheless tend to take more risks with my
          daily activities than many women I know.  I do *not* let my
          realistic (IMHO) fears control me or determine and restrict my
          actions.


               > What I find disturbing about Nancy's "hallucination" is
               > the notion that instilling fear is the only attribute of
               > men, and that they have no other value.  Sadly, I know
               > that some women feel this way, but I  know that most do
               > not.

          The topic of this note is "fear", not "the net worth and added
          value of men".  What I wrote was relevant to the topic.  And I
          hope you weren't implying that I (lumped in with "some women feel
          this way") feel that instilling fear is the only attribute of
          men.

               > Fear is a terrible affliction in this world, and those
               > that inflict it are abhorrent.

          No.  To say that those who "inflict fear are abhorrent" is to
          condemn many innocent men... the man who means no harm but just
          happen to be walking behind me in the parking garage on the way
          to their own car, a new friend of one of my housemates that came
          by for a spontaneous visit not knowing I was the only one home,
          etc. etc..  In so many situations, there is not enough time or
          information to be able to make a reasonably accurate judgement.
          Make the wrong decision and you'll be ridiculed and blamed for
          being careless.

               > But nothing is universally bad, nor universally good.

          Who said/implied that?

               > Understanding that, and learning how to manage the risks
               > of the real world, are keys to enjoying life.

          I *am* learning how to manage risks such that I keep fear at a
          reasonable level.  I do enjoy life (...well, at the moment I'm
          just a little steamed but usually...)

                                                       nancy b.

    First off, Nancy, I AGAIN APOLOGISE for my entry.  I would have
    deleted it but I felt that that would have been far worse and somewhat
    ignorant to others reading this experience.
    
    Secondly, PLEASE DO NOT CALL ME ALLAN.  that is MY SON.  I havent
    been called that in over 15 years.
    
    Thirdly, I agree, I do NOT like seeing women told when, where, how,
    why, to do ANYTHING!  AND saying what, where, when and how MEN should
    is ALSO wrong.
    
    Yes, maybe in your opinion, women using "honey" may be the typical
    active way to state a difference of opinion. BUT! I feel that if
    MEN AND WOMEN were to use "honey" instead of shouting down,things
    would be a whole lot easier for people to state differences.
    
    Sure suzanne stated her opinion, about my opinion, harshly....
    but was that needed?  No.  I dont need someone to talk down to me.
   
    If you feel that I need "enlightenment", feel free... But I (and
    others, males and females) will not be "enlightened" at all with
    attitudes such as "only males are violent", or, "youre this, and
    youre that".....
    
    I learn more from womennotes when it is stated with "finesse".
    As I am sure others do to.  Yes, there are the pig headed types
    that only respond to harshness, I am not one of them.  You do not
    know me, I would appreciate the benefit of the doubt.
    
    Al 

    Imagine you are -- as I am -- sending your daughter, your first-born,
    your pride and joy off to college for the first time this weekend.
    You feel you've done a reasonably good job of rearing this potential
    savior of humankind to be intellectually curious, a productive and
    concerned citizen, a beautiful and loving being.  But she's led
    a relatively sheltered life; her community, as communities go these
    days, was "safe," and her companions were trustworthy.  Now she's
    launching into the _real_ world, going to the big city.
    
    In the light of stories related in this string, what would you tell
    her?
    
    How would you show her that caution and care are necessities of
    survival, yet not scare her so severely that she locks herself in
    her dorm room for four years and then returns to the safety of home,
    never to venture into the excitement and challenge of life?
    
    What would YOU say?
    
    Karen
    

Do you have any sense about how good her 'survival instincts' are?

She should know how to say "no", and mean it. She should never get herself into
a defenseless position.

Gosh; I dunno.
	Mez

    Re: .55
    
     Karen,
    
     A very good question. One that I think about often in raising my
    9 year old daughter. On the one hand, I certainly want her to be
    outgoing, and like people. And on the other hand, she needs to know
    that you need to be wary of strangers. And I don't want the second
    issue to mess up the first.
    
     I guess the problem could be handled by having a mechanism and
    measurment scheme to use when out in the world:
    
     Know this much about someone? Trust them this much.
    
     Don't know someone at all? Don't reject them out of hand, but don't
    trust them with your life, either.
    
     Gregg

    This is a fairly uncensored response from the female side of me.  Just
    figured I'd warn you ;).
    
    I have no physical fear of women.  I have, at times, had an emotional
    or mental fear of women who liked to dominate, or belittle other
    people.  
    
    I don't feel women are physically threatening.  They don't seem as
    "into" the power thing as men - they don't seem to like to dominate as
    much.  And, quite honestly, I think women ***often*** have a stronger
    capability (on a constant basis) for empathy, and thus may be less
    likely to injure someone they do not know and have no reason to injure.
    I find when I see two women pass on the street, or meet briefly for the
    first time on the street, if there are no prior expectations, there
    seems to be a flowing between the two that feels like "ah - we are
    women - we meet - we share many things already - we acknowledge one
    another and create comfort in this meeting - and thus can relax and go
    about our business".  I have seldom seen this between men.  Men seem
    more able to section themselves off from the world and travel in their
    sphere of self without touching or acknowledging anyone.
    
    Perhaps I do not feel threatened by women because I fancy I know
    what they may be thinking because they may well think like me. 
    Perhaps I feel physically threatened by men sometimes on the street
    at night because I do not know what or how they think, and am painfully
    aware that their half of the species is solely responsible for a
    sizable fraction of the violence in this world.
    
    apologies if I hurt anyone with my statements.
    
    -Jody
     

Re: .50
    
    >>What I find disturbing about Nancy's "hallucination" is the notion
    >>that instilling fear is the only attribute of men, and that they have
    >>no other value.  

Steve, I don't think that Nancy has said that the only attribute of men is 
that they instill fear.  The reality of this discussion, at least for 
women, is that in the majority of instances where we have felt threatened 
or in grave danger (emotionally or physically), they have been caused by men.  
And this is not just an 'at night' scenario.  Yesterday at 1 in the 
afternoon while I was in the center of my home town, 3 men in a station 
wagon made very hostile and threatening remarks to me.  I don't drive a car 
with big locks and tinted glass.  I am out there in a little convertible.  
I am not prepared to experience these feelings of fear in the middle of a 
sunny (and what started out, pleasant) day.  I am just trying to run an 
errand at the bakery.  And because I am there at that moment, these men 
feel that they have a right to verbally assault me.  It doesn't feel good.  
I admit it.  It puts a big heavy damper on what was, an up mood for me.  In 
spite of the boundaries of fear, I won't give up my convertible car.  I 
ride in it at night, with the top down...and even if the top were up it 
does not provide a great amount of safety.  Maybe some people would think 
me foolish.  I won't live my life in a cage.  But that is *my* choice and 
may not be the choice of the next woman.

    >>I understand, as best as I am able without actually sensing it
    >>myself, Nancy's fear of men, the theme of which runs like an obsession
    >>through her notes.  

And I don't think you have a clue to understanding Nancy's fear.  I 
probably don't have a clue to understanding it...I haven't gone through the 
brutal experience that she has.  Your remark of labelling her fear 'an 
obsession' shows that you don't understand.

    >>I do what I can to help her heal, even if by nothing
    >>else than by being supportive and caring.

And I really don't think that using a loaded term like 'obsession' is being 
supportive and caring.  It sounded like a judgemental put-down to me.

Laura
   
      

    	RE: .52  Nancy
    
    	When I saw the note written about you last night that used words
    	like "obsession" and "affliction," I was pretty steamed about it,
    	too.  Those words weren't merely insensitive. The person was wrong!
    
    	When you talk about fear on the streets, I always take it to mean
    	that you are simply more *cautious* and *aware of your surroundings*
    	than most women probably are when they are out alone at night.
    
    	I see you as a tremendously strong person who goes out armed with
    	realistic knowledge about what women are up against when we venture
    	out alone at night, (and that knowledge has brought a strength to
    	you that has been of such great benefit for me to *see* in you.)
    
    	Even after attending a seminar some years back given by a police
    	women to groups of women (on the same sort of awareness that you
    	have been talking about,) I *know* I haven't been cautious enough
    	when it comes to protecting myself from crime.  
    
    	I want to thank you for sharing your experiences with us in this
    	file (even though it may have seemed unrewarding at times to have 
    	written about some of the things you've experienced.)  Your notes have
    	opened my eyes to some of the harsh realities involved with being
    	the target of a crime, and I firmly believe that in this situation,
    	knowledge allows prevention, and provides a source of strength.
    
    	Thank you for that!

    	RE: .60  Laura
    
    	> The reality of this discussion, at least for women, is that in 
    	> the majority of instances where we have felt threatened or in grave 
    	> danger (emotionally or physically), they have been caused by men.  
	> And this is not just an 'at night' scenario.
    
    	How true, although I even find *myself* thinking in terms of "at
    	night," more often than not.
    
    	It's also not just an "out of home" scenerio, either, come to think
    	of it.
    
    	The worst assault I've ever received (where bones in my face were
    	broken and I lost some of my hearing) occurred on a Saturday 
    	afternoon while standing in my own bedroom (next to my own bed)
    	having a discussion about something with my own husband.
    
    	That's one reality of my life that even *I* keep forgetting about.

>I feel I've
>          been thusly labeled and discounted by you.

 I don't think that you were labeled (at least not intentionally). I think
Steve erred in using a word that was emotionally charged and too strong for
the thought he was trying to relate (at least that's my interpretation).
I wouldn't say the boundaries of fear is an obsession, but it is a prevalent 
theme in your notes (with good reason, I might add).

>          I am offended you implicitly judged me as obsessed with fear.
>          I'm offended you merely used the word in a sentence with
>          reference to my notes.  I am not obsessed with fear! 

 It seems to me that we are having a compound negative reaction here. I don't
believe that Steve judged you as obsessed with fear. He said that fear was
theme that ran _like_ an obsession. I don't think he is of the opinion that
you are obsessed with fear (maybe I'm wrong, Steve?) I think he was commenting 
on the frequency of fear as a theme in your notes (albeit in a way that
appears insensitive due to a poor choice of words IMHO).

 The Doctah

    I think Steve's note was labeling and discounting.  I didn't see him
    trying to relate at all.  I was offended by it.
    
    Dondi
    
    

          <<< Note 714.51 by SYSENG::BITTLE "and justice for none." >>>

>               > --bonnie, who's been beaten up twice, both times by groups
>               > of women

>          Bonnie, I am *very* curious about the circumstances and
>          motivations of these attacks.  If you have no objections, could
>          you share it here or to me via email?

Well, I am not Bonnie, but I thought I would answer this anyway, since
I can say the same thing.  I have been beaten up twice, both times by women.
(girls, actually.)

It's true, both times were in my childhood, when there really isn't a
physical difference in strength.  (Well, there was, but it wasn't as large
as in adults.)  But it *does* affect the way I think about men and women
and fear.

One attack was two girls against me, out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever,
when I was walking home alone from school.  Most likely it was racially
motived (how many white people really understand what it's like to be a
racial minority?  I do.) but who can say?

The other was a girl I went to school with.  I had one friend who supported
me, but refused to get involved in the physical conflict.  She had 30 friends,
of both genderss, and she wasn't above asking them for help when she was in
trouble.  (I was bigger than her.)  It was the females who answered her call.
The motivation for this one wasn't clear either.  I was the underdog, and
she just felt like taking out her aggressions on someone.  I happened
to do something to aggravate her that day, and that is what happened.

In general, throughout my childhood, I was terrorized by females and got
hardly a single hassle from males.  (Teasing, yes...threats of physical
violence, never.)  Ever read Judy Blume's "Blubber"?  That was me - I was
picked on, tripped, harassed and abused by females.  There was the time I
was surrounded by 5 of the "tough" girls in my school...every time I tried
to dodge out of the circle, one would stop me, and the circle would get
smaller...I was forced to...I don't think I can talk about this.

How has this affected me in terms of fear?  I no longer fear physical
assault by females, and I am not scared I will get jumped when I pass a
group of women on the street, while I do get nervous passing a group of
men.  But my fear of women is much deeper - in a situation where physical
assault isn't the issue, I would much rather be around men than women.
Women make me nervous *all* *the* *time*.

This is kind of hard to talk about.  Maybe I'll write more later, when I
have figured out exactly what I want to say, and how to say it without
charges that I am a misogynist.

D!ana 

    Hmmm.  Reading the last few replies, the incident that suddenly comes
    to mind is one that I heard on the news about a year or so ago about
    some little boys in a schoolyard that didn't want to go out for recess
    because the little girls kept beating them up.
    
    And I've been in my share of fights in my middle school years.  I have
    to admit, although I didn't *start* the fights, I ended up *instilling*
    the fear.
    
    Carol
    

    It's with a heavy heart that I look back in here and see the damage I
    have done with ill-chosen words.  Nancy, I hope you can forgive me.
    
    It's curious to note that only Mark Levesque understood what I was
    trying to say - I wonder why that is.
    
    In no way did I mean to judge you, Nancy.  I've met you and talked with
    you and am in awe of your inner strength.  But it IS true that your
    notes here, really the only source of information I have on how
    you think, have a predominant theme of "fear of men".  It is that theme
    I referred to, injudiciously, as an "obsession".  It's almost all you
    talk about here. 
    
    Your fear is certainly justified, in the general sense.  I'd be an
    idiot to deny that, and I don't.  And I don't deny that a world
    without men would be safer for women.  I never meant to suggest
    otherwise, and was trying to avoid the digression about possibly
    being threatened by women.  I know as well as you that that threat
    is negligible compared to the threat from men.
    
    But am I not allowed to be disturbed about a vision of a world where
    I am not wanted?  And to wonder aloud about suggestions that the only
    alternative to living in fear is to ban men?
    
    Perhaps I misinterpreted, given that I really don't have a clue as to
    what it is like to be afraid like you are - or like you say you are
    in notes.  But I can try to understand where the fear comes from, and
    really, I AM trying to.  Reading your notes has given me a number of
    shocks that have made me feel ashamed to be a man.  In my bungled
    attempt to be supportive, I reached further than I should have and
    sounded patronizing instead.  I'm sorry, I never meant to be so. 
    
    I guess all this has taught me a lesson.  I should go back to
    listening until I figure out how to express myself appropriately.
    
    I do care about you.  I hope you understand that.
    
    		Steve

Nancy, I'm sorry I haven't told you lately how much I value your contributions
here!
	Mez

    Nancy, in answer to your question from way back (sorry to take so
    long answering, but I don't have time to note every day):

    The first time was a school incident in elementary school.  Report
    cards came out that day; the teacher injudiciously asked the class
    "Why can't you all get straight A's like Bonnie?"  Predictably,
    the girls who had been asked the question cornered me after school
    and whacked at me with lunch boxes and such for a while until I
    managed to run away.  The teacher, also female, knew what was
    going on and when I ran inside crying, told me I had to learn to
    deal with my social problems myself.

    D! reminds me that minor violence was routine.  I had forgotten
    about all the pokes, prods, trips, hair-pulls, and other physical
    pains inflicted by the other girls in the hall and in the
    classroom.  [Did you know that when another girl pulls your hair
    and you squawk and protest, you're more likely to be scolded for
    making noise in class than the other girl is to be scolded for
    violence?]
    
    In college I got mugged when I was home over vacation.  I went to
    a bar, where I ran into some young women I went to school with. 
    They were hanging out after work.  I think it was economically
    motivated, because we were all from the same background but I was
    going to college and they were stuck waiting tables and serving
    drinks at the bowling alley.  It was just your basic
    garden-variety punchout, nothing dramatic.  Oh, and they took my
    money, all of four bucks.
    
    Violence of all kinds, from both sexes, is a lot more common in
    the world of blue collar jobs and welfare I grew up in than it is
    in the nice middle class world I live in now.  When I was in high
    school and walked into the bathroom as two girls were pulling
    knives on each other, I didn't think much of it -- I just walked
    right back out and waited until the next class break to go.  And I
    didn't go into the bathroom in C wing at all; I wasn't one of the
    tough girls. 
    
    Violence doesn't end with school, either -- fights in bars and
    barns between adult women, and not infrequently between men and
    women, are not uncommon.  My grandmother's best friend at age 50+
    wound up in the hospital after pulling a butcher knife on a
    neighbor she thought was making a pass at her husband.  
    
    Unless you want to count fistfights stemming from sibling rivalry
    with my brother (which I wouldn't since most of the girls I knew
    had similar fights with their sisters), I've never been struck,
    poked, pinched, or tripped by a man. 
    
    I don't find myself jittery or suspicious of all women any more
    than I am of all men.  Whether or not I'm scared or take evasive
    action or whatever depends more on how the men or women are
    behaving and where I am than it does on whether they are men or
    women.  
    
    --bonnie

          re: .68 (Steve Lionel)
              ------------------

          Steve, thank you for apologizing.  Of course I forgive you.  I do
          not hold grudges over this sort of thing (am I still invited to
          your party next month? :-))

          I want to explain in this reply why your judgement/ labeling/ in-
          judicious choice of words elicited such a high-frequency response
          from me...

          But first, some thoughts on what you _asserted_ as being true in
          the note where you also apologized to me, .68:

               > But it IS true that your notes here, really the only
               > source of information I have on how you think, have a
               > predominant theme of "fear of men".  It is that theme I
               > referred to, injudiciously, as an "obsession".

          To decide for myself if that was true, I extracted and reread all
          the notes I've ever written.  My conclusion was that I write much
          about the "side effects of rape", and that my writings on other
          topics have also been influenced by the undeniable fact that I
          have been raped (I still hate saying that).

          **But** Writing a lot on the "side effects of rape" is not the
          same as writing predominantly about "fear of men".   But I guess
          I could understand how someone not reading my notes very closely
          could incorrectly arrive at that conclusion.

          I really was quite honest in 99.29 when I first entered the list
          of side-effects of being raped, and I did not include "obsessive
          fear of men" as one of them.   (I described a difficulty with
          *trust*...but problems with totally trusting a man is **not** the
          same as obsessively fearing a man).

          Geez, how can I be obsessively fearful of men when sleeping with
          a *man* is by far *the* most helpful thing I can do in order to
          fall asleep easily and make it through the night without night-
          mares !?!

          The other place which I thought might have led you into believing
          what you do, is in 99.37 where I described the events immediately
          following the rape.  I admit that, for the first couple hours af-
          ter the rape, I was terrified of any man touching me.  But I was
          in shock and had a concussion and was not really able to tell the
          difference between friend and foe.  This is simply not the way I
          live now.  From a limited amount of reading and in communicating
          with another female victim of sexual violence, I've learned that
          a common and difficult side effect of their experiences was sig-
          nificant trouble in developing the capacity for intimacy for a
          long while; understanding and not confusing... love, sex, and af-
          fection.   In hindsight, I feel lucky this common side effect
          passed me by.  I think I lost any irrational fear of men I had in
          the months following the rape, when I regained the capacity for
          intimacy and sharing with a man.


          I just wish *forgetting* about this could be as easy as forgiv-
          ing....
          (Does anyone know of amnesia pills?  Hey, that would solve all my
          problems, not just this one :-)

          I am now exponentially more aware of anything I put in a reply
          that would contribute to the "prevalent theme of fear of men" in
          my notes, or the perception of my being obsessed or afflicted.

          For example, I thought Karen Godin's reply on what to tell her
          daughter going off to college in light of the stories in this
          topic was an excellent question.  I formulated a short list of
          suggestions that I would never consider posting here now, because
          it surely would only support your view that I am obsessed with
          fear.  (Karen, want me to mail it to you?) And I deleted the file
          I was about to enter in the "Why Men" topic. The file was actu-
          ally one I'd written and researched a *long* time ago for the
          "Questions on Ancient Civilizations" topic but had never entered;
          it's basis (coincidently) was one of the points Bonnie Reinke has
          since made in the "Why Men" topic.  Coming from me it would only
          have the same effect as replying to Karen in this topic.


          There's another major reason why your reply containing words like
          "obsession" and "affliction" in reference to me elicited such a
          high frequency response from me...

          This is bordering on what I consider almost too personal to en-
          ter, but if it helps you and others to understand, it will be
          worth it.

          I recently realized (2.5 weeks ago) that, in either romantic or
          friendship relationships with men that know about my rape, I tend
          to look upon myself as "rape victim".  With respect to all other
          aspects of my life, I think of myself as "individual" or "woman".
          Maybe because I loved my ex-SO so much, and he obviously thought
          of me as rape-victim not woman when he would not touch me follow-
          ing the incident, and how could he be wrong, and therefore why
          would other men think differently ... and...

          This is a big part of why I don't tell men I'm dating or am
          friends with that I have been raped, unless I absolutely have to
          (i.e. because of 99.29 #4).  It's so easy that way - I don't
          worry about what they think, and my self-perception w.r.t. them
          is normal.

          Anyway, I realized that ... in order for me to believe that a man
          with full knowledge of my rape will be able to look at me as
          "woman" instead of "rape victim" ... that I have to believe that
          myself first.

          So, for the past couple weeks I'd been doing a lot of self-talk
          with the main point being - I can, should, and deserve to be,
          first and foremost a "woman", an "individual" in a man's eyes;
          not an abnormal, afflicted, woman-turned-rape-victim.

          Earlier, I just might have said, "Yea, I guess I can see why you
          think I'm screwed-up" , disagreed, and shrugged it off (though I
          am positive I would've still strongly disagreed that the main of
          my notes is obsessive fear of men).

          But the timing of your reply came just as I was beginning to ac-
          cept that, to men, I was first an individual, a woman.


          ...And I really meant it when I said above that I forgive you,
          Steve, and will hold no grudge.

          Hopefully my explanation above helped you and others to under-
          stand why I was so hurt by your words.

          But *please*, I really don't have it in me to debate this fur-
          ther.  I recognize that asking you to not rebut what I've said
          might not be a very fair thing to do (according to the Philosophy
          of VAXnotes, I guess), because I've directly disagreed with
          statements you made concerning the theme of my notes.

          I've felt very drained and defeated by this, as well as the indi-
          rect references to this being made in another topic (760 -
          "Judgement and Perception").  Some people just don't seem to un-
          derstand...<sigh>...
          and I can't fathom how to explain it any clearer than I or others
          have already.

          I just want to stop writing and thinking about this (fear, rape,
          crime, guns - anything negative) for a while.

                                                  nancy b.

                                     (future read-mostly; write-lite-only)

    Re: .71
    
    Nancy,
    
    This is one of those interesting cases where I am utterly delighted to
    be told that I am wrong.  I'm very glad to hear that.
    
    I am going to have to learn to deal with uncomfortable truths by
    listening, accepting and trying to understand.
    
    Please continue to write whatever you feel you must.
    
    See you at the party!
    
    			Steve

	And somehow another woman is silenced....

	But of course we (women) don't need any safe space,
	we have Womannotes to discuss our issues in!!!!!


	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			To continually speak-out
			requires the strength of a Goddess...

    Wait a minute.
    
    Why the h*** should men's opinions in this file, or in this
    string, silence us?
    
    What are they going to do to us, send us to bed without our
    dinners?  
    
    Are we so socialized to be deferential that we can't even continue
    our own discussions over the distractions? 
    
    We aren't _being_ silenced, we're silencing ourselves.  We're
    letting a handful of men say "Oh, we think less of you for saying
    this," and instead of telling them, "Tough ****," we're agreeing
    that their opinion controls what we're going to talk about.
    
    Well, I, for one, ain't having any of it.
    
    I'm not even going to apologize for being loud and rude and angry.
    Angry?  Dammit, I'm mad as hell, and I AM NOT GOING TO SHUT UP!
    
    --bonnie

    	One thing that's been on my mind during all this, and I've been
    	trying to think of ways to express it for days...
    
    	When women say we have "fear" because of the fact that we are
    	frequent targets of violent crimes (including rape,) the image 
    	some men have of fear is along the lines of thinking that we mean 
    	we are literally quaking in our boots.
    
    	Sometimes I think that *some* men have the impression that women
    	who express "fear" of men are unable to ever relax in any situation
    	that involves humans with Y chromosomes.  I get the impression that
    	some men think such women view every man as a cross between Jason
    	(from Friday the 13th) and Freddie Kruger (from "Nightmare on Elm
    	Street") as if life for such women never stops being a "Nightmare
    	of Friday the 13th on Elm Street."  I get the impression that some
    	men think that such women let out bloodcurdling screams from their
    	cubicles every time a masculine username pops up in notes.
    
    	How could anyone realistically think that women could be that
    	one-dimensional?  I've never in my life met any woman who lived
    	the kind of "life of fear" that some men seem to be picturing
    	when women use that particular "f" word.
    
    	Perhaps a better way to express it would be that some of us live
    	"lives of caution" (because of the very real dangers that exist
    	for women as potential targets of violent crimes like rape.)
    
    	When it comes to living "lives of caution," though, I know plenty
    	of men who use a tremendous amount of caution in their everyday
    	lives as well.
    
    	My teenage son, for example, is 6 ft. 2 inches and weighs 185 lbs
    	(and is not easily intimidated by *anyone*,) yet he follows our
    	"Rules for Home Security" at least as stringently as I do (and
    	even scolds me when I commit a lapse in home security myself.)
    
    	He would rather not have to deal with the possible circumstances
    	that could be involved if our home was robbed (and I agree with
    	him!) so we live "lives of caution" to do everything we can to
    	prevent having to deal with encountering the situation of burglary
    	in our home, or being assaulted while in our cars.
    
    	If someone takes less precautions than they could possibly take
    	(and ends up getting robbed or whatever,) that *doesn't* mean that
    	the victim is at fault, of course.  We each have to decide what
    	level of precautions are comfortable for us to take (along with
    	what risks we are willing to take.)  In all situations, if a crime
    	occurs, of course, the perpetrator bears the burden of the guilt.
    
    	Getting back to talking about fear, I think it's more than reasonable
    	for a woman who is exceptionally *tuned in* to the need for women to
    	take precautions against crime to bring it up as often as she feels
    	it would be of some help to others.
    
    	If the use of the word "fear" sounds like it implies a constant
    	emotional state, then we either need to correct the impressions
    	that some people have of what the word means, or try using another
    	word, perhaps.

    re .71, Nancy
    
    >      Anyway, I realized that ... in order for me to believe that a man
    >      with full knowledge of my rape will be able to look at me as
    >      "woman" instead of "rape victim" ... that I have to believe that
    >      myself first.
    
    The way *I* get myself to believe this (XX 1st, victim 2nd) is to
    remind myself that as I get older, rape/attempted_rape victims very
    nearly make up the majority of my female peers.  Think of it: more
    female rape victims than, say, female redheads.  Pretty staggering.
    
    And re .55, how to tell your daughter to watch out
    
    Being numbers oriented, statistics bring it home to *me*: in a recent
    survey of college seniors, some fraction (about a quarter, as I recall)
    were sexually assaulted DURING THE LAST FOUR YEARS.  One in four... 
    Look around in your quad (four in one room/suite) and think which one
    of you will it be.
    
    Lee
    

    in re. being seen as a 'rape victim' versus 'woman'
    
    [this may belong elsewhere, but to keep it all together...]
    
    rape is rarely the first thing I bring up, altough I've never tried to
    hide it.
    
    those people who see me as victim tend not to last in my life.  I do
    not see _myself_ as a victim [although I have a heightened awareness of
    my vulnerability]. 
    
    what I wanted from relationships was not changed by rape [even if my
    capacity to trust was challenged].  neither was what I want for and
    from myself materially changed.
    
       Ann

    I am impressed by the honesty and courage of those in this notesfile
    who have been raped and say so.
    
    Although I've probably known women (and, who knows? some men) who have
    been raped, only one has said so directly to me.  She lived in the
    apartment above mine in a brownstone in Brookline.  She was raped next
    door to where we all lived, on a construction site for an elderly
    housing project.  Someone called out for help at 9:00 pm while she was
    on her way back from the supermarket.  She went to help.  She told me
    and my roommates this story when we moved in, to warn us that even a
    nice area wasn't always safe.  (She reported the rape, had good support
    from the police (who caught the guy), got lights put in on our street,
    and lots of positive press.  However, she kept a LARGE dog after that.)
    
    How cruel to trick someone with their impulse to kindness.
    
    Getting back to the topic, isn't it sad that one way in which people
    must protect themselves is:  refuse to help others who appear to be in
    need, on the offchance that it's a trick?  I hate that I do this, but I
    do.  I don't allow door-to-door charity seekers in my apartment, don't
    pick up hitchhikers, don't stop to help people on the highway, keep my
    distance from street people ... all in the name of protecting myself.  
    I've been *VERY* lucky so far -- but at the expense of my more humane
    instincts.
    
    Pam

Yes Pam; I hate not picking up a hitchhiker. 

I remember when I was about 13 or so, I was being driven home from a Rainbow
function by a member of the board. She saw a hitchhiker that was 'obviously'
associated with a broken car. We picked him up; she told me to sit in the back.
After we dropped him off, she said she had told me to sit in the back so that
if he tried something, he would have two directions to contend with.

I always respected her ethics and reality.
	Mez

        It's somewhat out-of-date, but as a male WomanNoter I have a
        hard time not commenting on the incident of Steve Lionel
        "silencing" Nancy Bittle.
        
        Personally, I just don't know how to cope with it. If I'm going
        to contribute anything to this file, I need to be able to say
        the things that are on my mind, the things I believe. I've got a
        lot of arrogance in me, but I can't claim to be perfect, and I
        know that I am capable of saying some truly stupid things. I've
        said things so stupid that they reduced an engineer I deeply
        admired and respected to tears.
        
        If I participate here, I will end up saying things that hurt
        women. I can't help it. None of us can. "None of us" means "no
        human beings", by the way.
        
        On the other hand, even to men, the most important thing about
        this conference is often how supportive it is. If this file is
        unsafe because Steve Lionel or I or Jerry Boyajian or other men
        who try to understand, and say what we believe, are in it then
        that is a great shame.
        
        I don't want to see Nancy silence herself because one man aid
        something thoughtles. I don't want to silence myself or see
        other men silence themselves because one woman reacted
        extremely to what they've said.
        
        If this is to be a supportive place, we need not merely to be
        supportive and understanding and sensitive and honest, but
        courageous, too. We need to be willing to say what we feel even
        though others react badly to it. We should strive not to hurt,
        not to upset, and we should apologize when we do. But when we
        are misunderstood or when we misunderstand, we must not let that
        make us fear to write.
        
        Nancy has an amazing amount of courage. Her strength makes her
        far more someone to admire and respect than someone to pity. She
        is not someone I've ever felt was obssessed with fear. To see
        her back down or back off from Steve's thoughtless word leaves
        me at a complete loss. To "do that" to a woman in WommanNotes
        would make me feel terrible. Yet, am I not to say what I feel
        for fear that a woman will be silenced?
        
        I genuinely don't know what the right thing to do is. Shall we
        flee in order to make WomanNotes safe? Are men so fiercesome and
        women so fragile that the presence of even well-meaning men and
        then only in writing makes a forum unsafe? I can not believe
        that that is true. Yet can I in conscience risk the arrogance
        that I know better than the women who claim that I am intruding,
        that I am a danger?
        
        To make it worse, I know fear, I know it as terror, and I
        absolutely reject it. I reject it irrationally. I will never
        allow someone to do that to me again. Ever. I am, therefore,
        completely non-objective about fear and ill-suited to judge it.
        I can sympathize with it deeply, though, and knowing that I
        might due to my irrational non-objective position unwittingly
        instill fear bothers me deeply.
        
        In the end, I will inevitably refuse to leave for fear of
        instilling fear, but is that right?
        
        JimB.

          re: 714.80 (Jim Burrows)

          I did not stop writing about things negative (lessee - that
          includes fear, rape, crime, guns, etc...) out of fear of what a
          male member of the community would say in response.

          To repeat some of what I said in 714.71, I felt very drained from
          my participating in =wn= at that time...  I just wanted a rest
          for a while. "Silenced" is not quite it..."toned down" more
          accurately describes my initial response to the entire incident.

          As a matter of fact, circumstances beyond my control are soon not
          going to permit me to continue to not consciously think about an
          unpleasant "side effect" of being raped... and I don't think I'll
          hesitate to ask for support here if I feel the need to.

               > Personally, I just don't know how to cope with it. If
               > I'm going to contribute anything to this file, I need
               > to be able to say the things that are on my mind, the
               > things I believe.
               .
               .
               > I don't want to silence myself or see other men
               > silence themselves because one woman reacted
               > extremely to what they've said.
               .
               .
               > Yet, am I not to say what I feel for fear that a
               > woman will be silenced?

          My advice - THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE.  Try to put yourself in the
          other person's position as best you can.  Some of those "things
          that are on your mind" might just as well be kept to yourself, if
          they fall in the category of responses that note 1.3 mentions
          below:


===============================================================================
Note 1.3                            Welcome!                        3  of 21
MEWVAX::AUGUSTINE "Purple power!"                    29 lines  2-JUN-1988 13:35
            -< Guidelines for writing about sensitive topics >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       In general, we encourage all types of discussions here.
          
       However, some notes need to be answered with tenderness, sensitivity and
       support. At those times, judgement and nit-picking are inappropriate.
              .
              .
       Please stop, think and feel. In a similar situation, how would you feel?
              .
              .
       How can you be most helpful to this person?  Will you feel proud of your
       response?

              Thank you
              Bonnie, Holly, Liz & Maggie

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

               > Yet can I in conscience risk the arrogance that I
               > know better than the women who claim that I am
               > intruding, that I am a danger?

          Yea, I'd call that an act of arrogance in =wn= :-).

               > In the end, I will inevitably refuse to leave for
               > fear of instilling fear, but is that right?

          Jim, I think you're generalizing much too much from this
          incident.  In my opinion, Steve's 714.50 was not written within
          the guidelines of note 1.3 above; he apologized; I accepted his
          apology, but decided to describe the effects of that careless
          response in 714.71 (i.e., that I was suddenly exponentially more
          aware of how often I wrote on unpleasant subjects...and maybe
          people get tired of reading it...and maybe I should be more well-
          rounded in my writings, even though I prefer to contribute only
          where I can offer a truly unique viewpoint...and gee, isn't it a
          shame that my most unique contributions to this conference are on
          rape, gun protection, fear, crime, violence, etc...maybe I should
          get a real life and think more about "why women are slobs" :-).

          While I do think there is something important to be learned from
          the entire event,  I think that your musing (from above) if you
          should leave for "fear of instilling fear" is taking it to an
          extreme.
                                                  nancy b.

    Nancy, Jim's is not an isolated, extreme viewpoint. I have
    sat and pondered most of the same things - am I disturbing
    people here, do I intimidate people to silence, infuriate
    them, should I leave, should I read-only, etc...You'd be
    surprised at how many vows of silence I've taken. All of
    which lasted several hours.
    
    I do have one answer to one question raised. having to do
    with overcoming fear. When one has been afraid, they tend
    to overcome their fear by becoming fearsome themselves.
    Overcompensating. Intimidating so as not to be intimidated.
    Finding an intimidation-free balance is not easy. I don't
    think I'm there yet. I do know that I'd rather be intimidating 
    than intimidated in the meantime. (Thank you, Robert Ringer.)

    Dana

    Dana, I'm not sure you're hearing what Nancy's saying.

     re: 889.15 (Nanci Vanfleet)     -< Feeling hunted... >-

>    The Montreal incident has had a surprisingly profound effect on me and
>    my attitudes in the last week or so.  I have never before thought of
>    myself as a victim.  Now I admit to quite a bit of doubt about my
>    ability to protect myself and an accompanying amount of fear.  I feel
>    physically vulnerable for the first time in my life and it's not a
>    pleasant feeling.  This feeling has been reinforced by an incident that
>    occurred on Tuesday.  
    
**   I don't want to live my life from fear but how do you work past the  **
**   feelings that arise from this sort of thing?                         **

     Great question, Nanci.  I had hoped to eventually get to that in 
     this topic (there was a slight digression between .36-.here).

     Any ideas out there?
							   nancy b.

         I can't stop the fear, but I can choose what I do with it.  I
         won't let fear rule my life.  Coming to this understanding
         has been a long, difficult process becuz I let fear rule my
         life for nearly 36 years.  I used various mind-altering
         substances to numb the fear, and in the process became
         addicted.  My process of recovery from addiction brought me
         to AA. 
         
         In AA I began to find an answer for my fears when I accepted
         that I was powerless over many things besides alcohol. The
         process of recovery brought me in touch with a higher power,
         or universal wisdom, some folks call it God. In my
         understanding I came to believe that I am loved and I am
         safe.  There are no coincidences in my life and every
         situation and event has a purpose.  I have nothing to fear in
         the universe, anytime, anywhere.  Ever.
         
         Do I still feel fear?  Yes.  Will I let fear rule my life?
         No, not for long.  I work through my fear by embracing it.
         When I try to deny my fear, then I give fear more power. 
                  
         Nancy

    
    
    in re .84
    
    yeah Nancy and congratulations..
    
    hugs
    
    Bonnie