Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    Try holding hands. Several women have told me it's almost
    a lost art :-)/2

    Re .1
    	Yes, I consider "holding hands" to be one of "steps."  I remember
    reading in one of the notes on Rape something like "a peck on the
    cheek or an arm on the waist is coercive if I don't want it." I
    could only hope that that was a minority opinion -- AS LONG AS the
    guy (1) was acting in good faith and not ignoring blatant signals,
    and (2) is willing to remove the arm from the waist, or whatever.
    	So, would most women feel "un-coerced" when a guy takes her
    hand, or other "small steps"?  Are some "small steps" taken by guys
    (such as the peck on the cheek or the arm on the waist) perceived
    as more coercive?
    			-Keith

    Keith,
    
    I don't think anyone can give you a recipe for how to seduce a woman.
    Nor can we provide a hierarchical list of decreasingly coercive-seeming
    activities that's applicable for all women. When I first read your
    note, I thought two things: give the process some time, AND why don't
    you talk to her? Making statements and asking questions (and _listening_
    to the answers) goes a far way towards understanding how another person
    is feeling. It relieves you of the need to guess what's going on, and
    it means that you don't have to assume that what you're doing is fine
    when it's not.
    
    Hope this helps
    Liz

    I agree with Liz, talk to her.
    
    Once you get past hand-holding, and she seems to be giving you the
    nod, backrubs are nice - they can either end of their own accord
    or lead to other things.
    
    Of course, there's nothing wrong with waiting for her to make the
    first move....
    
    -Jody
    

    
    re:.5
    "nothing wrong with waiting for her to make the first move"
    
    i've know girls who would stop seeing some guy if he didn't
    try and "put the moves" on her after a few dates.
    
    i also agree with Liz, if you're looking for some formula, or
    guidelines of conduct, there is none.  
    
    Bob
    

    re .5 >waiting for her to make the first move
    
    Unfortunately, the cultural conditioning against this is 
    *very* powerful. Some of the most modern women I know have 
    told me that it was 'up to you, the male' to make the first 
    move. 
    
    Better to show some, repeat some, initiative and *pay attention*
    
    Dana (who got tired - and lonely - 'waiting for her')

    Well, I'm one of those women who isn't comfortable making the first
    move.  I may not signal that I'm interested, other times I do
    everything but let my tongue hang out and wag my tail.
    
    What I would like - and signs I would give if not appropriate:
    
    Hold hands		Hand gets tugged away or no return pressure
    
    Put an arm around	Move away, exert pressure against the arm instead
    shoulder/waist	of cuddling closer
    
    Kiss on cheek	Move away, turn my head
    
    Kiss on mouth	Take your time, look in my eyes as you 'close
    			in'.  I'll step back, turn my head, or look
    			away if it isn't appropriate.
    
    Try to listen to both body language and words.  If either one is
    saying "No" or "slow down" -- DO STOP.
    
    Once you've (generic) started with a small move, let me do the next
    step of escalation.  If we alternate escalation steps, with a clear
    understanding that "stop, that's enough for now" means just that,
    there shouldn't be a problem.
    
    
    Men need to feel free to say no, too.
    
    Alison

You ask a reasonable (but gutsy) question, Keith.  I sense your
question is a serious one, and not a flippant response to what you've read.

Some thoughts on your statements...


>	been an education.  I never thought myself capable of being
>	a rapist to begin with, but now I'm thoroughly immunized.

Well, I've deleted and rewritten most of my immediate reactions to
that sentence because I was afraid of sounding like I was "male bashing"
(not wanting to give fuel to a debate going on in another topic.)

You are not "thoroughly immunized" unless it is no longer structurally
possible for you to rape a woman.  I suspect this is not the case.
Rape is a means by which any man can keep any woman in a state of fear.

You *are* capable of rape.  

A more factual statement would be that you are less likely to rape 
because of your heightened awareness.



>		What are some ways of "initiating" ... yes, SEXual
>	contact (and/or the steps that MAY but will NOT NECESSARILY
>	lead up to it) that WOMEN would find to be "romantic" but
>	not threatening or coercive?

I liked what Ian (in .2) said about simply being honest and telling
her during a "suitable moment".  As Liz (in .4) said, you then 
don't have to be a mind reader over what is acceptable to her, 
and she is not stressed out because she now knows your intentions 
and what is acceptable to you.  

You should, however, still be aware of her body language throughout all 
physical interactions (so keep in mind Alison's list (in .8))

And while there is no "formula", I do think there are some very general 
guidelines of conduct - a verbal no means no, and physical resistance 
means no.


>       I am currently a university
>	student in the U.S., so I have ample opportunities to "try",
>	and since I am with a lot of people of interests and age
>	similar to my own I can take more risks.  

Yes, college is unique in that sense.  

Be safe.
					        nancy b.
	

    I agree there is no formula.  I don't know about other women but a man
    that is understanding and "patient" really does it for me.  Sensitivity
    is also very important - I think if there is something between two
    people and they're both sensitive they won't need guidelines or advise. 
    You do what you feel, and you'll probably feel what the other person wants.
    It takes time to get to know someone - so patience in the sense of not
    pushing, caring for each other, sharing thoughts and letting things
    develop by itself.
    
    Rose

    
    As a man that thinks about sex all the time, let me throw in my sense
    too.
    
    I find that there isn't really a problem initiating sexual activity.
    More often, the problem for me is how to hold off on sex!
    
    If you like a woman, and she likes you, keep inviting each other
    to spend time together, and go interesting places, do interesting
    things.  TALK to each other, and your mutual attraction for each
    other is GUARANTEED to come up eventually in the conversation.
    
    For me, all too often the sex part comes in to the picture too quickly
    for our own good.  Then the relationship fizzles.
    
    But in your case, I'd say talk to her about your feelings, and ask
    her her feelings.
    
    /Eric

    I found it very romantic when my husband asked if he could kiss me (way
    back when on our second date) -- the fact that he asked, to me, showed
    a lot of sensitivity and caring.
    
    

    re .11, Eric, why does a relationship "fizzle" for you if sex enters
    the picture too quickly (as you put it)?  Do you lose interest in
    women once you're able to get them to have sex with you?  If so,
    perhaps you should wear a sign warning potential dates of this
    behavior.  This reminds me of the attitudes of the 50's and early
    60's when girls said things to each other like, "don't do it with
    him for at least two months or else he'll think you're a tramp and
    won't take you seriously" and that bothers me.  It's as though there
    were all these unwritten rules to the game of dating and innocent
    people who are unaware just lose.  I just don't understand why it
    should matter to you at what point in time you have sex with a woman
    you're dating.  I don't understand what it means to you, or tells
    you about the woman, if she has sex with you too early in the game.
     Does it mean she's a tramp that doesn't deserve to be the mother
    of your future children, or does it mean she was just too easy too
    get, or what?  I just don't understand what difference it makes.
     It's as though someone loses points in your eyes, or something,
    if they give in too quickly, or that's how I took it.  Isn't that
    a bit old fashioned?
    
    In the 3 most meaningful relationships of my life so far, including
    my 12 yr. marriage to my ex-husband, we had sex early on in the
    relationship, and it just sort of happened, as they say.  But, we
    didn't penalize each other for it.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .14, well, the majority of people may feel that something that
    they get easily is not worth having, but I don't feel that how easily
    I got something necessarily determines it's worth, and I think it's
    a shallow way of looking at relationships.  It reminds me of Woody
    Allen quoting the Groucho Marx line, "I'd never want to join a club
    that would have me as a member." (or whatever it is)
    
    My consolation is that people who judge others this way in regards
    to sex, dating and romance, wouldn't be *worth* having a relationship
    with anyway.  I stopped playing games like that when I was about
    18.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    I thought Eric just meant that sometimes if you have sex with somone
    too fast, the relationship gets too intense too fast and burns out.
    And I agree (although others' mileage may vary).
    
    Roberta

    
    
    re .16:
    
    No Lorna, I'm not saying that I lose interest in a woman just because
    we have sex early.
    
    It's more that the relationship becomes scarier.  And I suspect that
    if we held off the sexual part until we had gotten to know each other
    better first, then it wouldn't be as scary when we finally did have
    sex.
    
    You sound quite angry by the way.  Which is o.k. but I guess if you're
    going to be angry at me it might as well be at something I meant to say
    rather than something I didn't.
    
    /Eric
    

    RE .16, I don't know.... I'd have to see what you look like first!
    :-) ...
    
    Seriously, though, what you said reminded me too much of the old
    double standard, and the old double standard has made me *very angry*
    for a long time.  I wanted to find out what you were really talking
    about, and maybe make you think about what you meant.
    
    Actually, as Jody and others have said, it's almost impossible to
    make set rules for how to act on dates, etc.  Also, everyone is
    different.  Personally, if I get to be too close friends with someone
    and know them for too long of a time without ever getting physical,
    then I begin to think of that person as a brother or something and
    then I can't get interested in ever getting physical with them!!
     (Except there was one exception to that rule!)  Also, I can't stand
    having someone I'm not already in a relationship with try to hold
    hands with me.  It drives me nuts for some reason.  I feel like
    saying, "Hey, you're not my boyfriend.  Why should I hold hands
    with you?"  See how confused I am!  I think holding hands is for
    established lovers, but that sex can be with attractive strangers!
     
    I guess everybody just has to make their moves and take their chances.
     It's not always easy. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .12
    
    I have always liked having my date ask if they could kiss me, too.  I
    think its romantic!!  Although, very few men have asked.  I think
    asking if you can do anything you are uncertain about is ok and
    appreciated....ie....snuggling together, and you want to touch in more
    sensitive areas, ask!!!  All the woman (or man) has do to is say no,
    instead of pushing away an unwanted hand away.  
    
    This reminds of dating at 16....those young, horny boys looking for a
    quick grope!!!
    
    Linda

    My suggestion (being single, female, and dating) wouold be the most
    obvious, ask.  Once after going out with a friend of mine, male,
    he looked at me as we were leaving the restauraunt.  It was a very
    thoughtful look so I asked him what he was thinking.  His response
    was, "I was just thinking how much I would like to kiss you."
    It was the most innocent and honest way a man has ever showed me 
    he was interested without being assuming or threatening.  So I said,
    "I'm not stopping you."  It was really nice.
    If you ever get to a point with a woman and don't know whether she
    wants to or not, tell her point blank, "I'd like to make love to
    you."  If she says, "no."  Then the answer is, "no".  If she
    hesitates...the answer is still, "no".
    
    Katrina

    re:.0
    
    I agree with the others. If you feel that your non-sexual
    friendship has reached the point where is can turn sexual, the
    best thing to do is to talk with the woman openly about it.
    Think of it this way: if she isn't willing to talk about it,
    why would she be willing to do it?
    
    I also agree with Nancy (.9) -- you aren't "immunized". It's
    very hard to draw a clear line where "persuasion" ends and
    "coercion" begins, and at best, your heightened awareness of
    the situation will only make you conscious of what you may be
    doing while you're doing. It doesn't mean, however, that you
    won't step over the line without realizing it -- because that
    line is drawn by the woman, and it can vary from woman to woman.
    What is "persuasion" to one may be "coercion" to a second, and
    "rape" to a third.
    
    --- jerry

    
    Small rathole....
                 
    I had a man ask me to kiss him recently.
    
    It was at that late, late hour after wonderful conversation and good
    wine, and this beautiful man was lying on his back on my carpet....
    
    And he just looked me straight in the eyes and said "Kiss me".
                                                          
    Now, I'm not too clear about who was initiating this or who was
    controlling the situation, but to me it felt like a non-threatening
    way of asking (inviting me to do it to him, rather than asking if
    he could do it to me...)..... 
    
    'gail
    
    

    This is an extract from a mail message I wrote to someone about this
    topic.  She suggested I post it here...

                            *****************
    
        I think there's a difference between "physically incapable" and
"mentally incapable".  I also think he mis-stated his position a lot.  I
really have the same feeling - what's the difference between "persuasion"
and "undue coercion".  When I was younger (college), I was more likely to
be coercive.  "No" meant "not now".  I think what he was trying to say, is
he came to the realization at 20 that I did at 26.  Some behaviour is
(while not technically "rape") not showing the proper respect for another
person's negative responses to your advances.

        I would not rape (in the legal definition of the word), but I have
certainly been guilty of coercive behaviour.

                             ****************

	Reading =wn= has been responsible for a lot of my change of
perspective.

					--D

    
    	If you look up "coerce" in the AHD, the three definitions say
    "force, force, force". I take it that this correlates highly with
    "rape", which is a *forced* act.
    
    	"Persuade", according to AHD, has no "force" aspect to it.
    Therefore, to have a "non-coercive romance" or whatever, means that
    you use no force whatsoever to further your intentions.
    
    	Personally, say, when I get the 'ol "limp hand" in response to my
    advancment of intent of wanting to bring things closer together, I 
    simply *stop* right there, reading the sign clearly. Sounds simple 
    enough.                     
    
    	Joe Jas
                         

	I seem to remember a recent movie ad (dont remember its name).
	The woman leaped out of bed disgusted and "George, you are a
	fantastic lover in bed, but you dont know how to hold my hand."

	If you are ready for romance, then be romantic - candle-light
	dinner, moonlite walks and dancing. Dancing, talking slow
	dancing, allows you to 'hold' a woman in your arms. So as 
	the time passes and you become dreamier, you slowly hold
	her closer and note very carefully her reaction and move
	accordingly. The beauty of this is that the communication
	is quite clear. So knows what you are doing and if interested
	will move closer. If on the other hand, she is not, she will
	move quite clearly away from you. All this can be done
	with out excahnge of words. If you find she is not interested,
	you can still enjoy the dance and salvage the evening. This
	should be a relatively non-threatening environment for both
	of you. By all means take your time. By the time you leave
	the dancing, you should know if she is likely to be willing.
	But psych yourself to be prepared to be refused. She might
	not either is as ready as you or not interested in you that
	way. If you are really friends, then you should both be
	ready to talk about it. Good Luck.

    re:.23
    
    OK, I looked up "coerce" in my AHD, and you're right. It even
    supports you in the "synonym usage" under the "force" entry.
    
    Still, the connotation *to me* of "coerce" is not nearly as strong
    as "force". To me, "coercion" seems to be more of an unflagging
    persistence, while "force" suggests physical restraint, abuse,
    or armed threat.
    
    --- jerry

    re .25 I think one can 'persist' politely, but not
    'coerce' politely.
    
    I would call 'coerce', 'abuse', 'physically harm' all
    variations of 'force'.

	Thanks for all your replies.  (Feel free to continue)... It
	was refreshing to find that the answers to my question seemed
	to more or less correspond with what I've found out by trial
	and error:  I really appreciate it when people say what they
	mean and not what they think they should say.

	Re: .9
		As I stated in 525.50, I think I merely used ambiguous
	language in the base note -- I really don't think there was any
	substantive disagreement.

	Re: .6, .7, .8:
		It has indeed been my experience that waiting for a
	woman to initiate just doesn't work:  there is just too large
	a proportion of women out there who won't do it (maybe this is
	because some men are "turned off" by a woman who "makes the first
	move").  Besides, I've gotten "yes"s and "no"s, but I can't
	remember one instance when I regretted asking... it seems to
	make the friendship more interesting somehow.

	Re: .12, .18, .21:
		Hmm.  I've always thought it would be easier to just ask,
	rather than try to read body language:  I find it difficult to
	be very receptive to body language while I'm "psyching up" in
	case I get a "no", but I've had an easier time communicating
	verbally.  But I thought it would come across as...mechanical,
	or unromantic.  I realize it's more a question of "how" you say
	it than anything else, but... I think I'll try that approach
	next time a suitable occasion arises...

	Keith