Conference turris::womannotes-v2

I've been to lower-grade ones a long time ago. So I wouldn't, cause I've seen
it before, and Joe looks better. To me :-).
	Mez

    Would I go?
    
      Not for the show, certainly.  Possibly for the company of friends
    who were determined to spend an evening there. [much as I would
    go to a seafood restaurant with friends even though I'm quite allergic]
    
      I can't imagine wanting to go.  It seems rather exploitive.  It
    also brings out a side of audiences I'd rather not look at.  Yes,
    I have been to a similar place and didn't enjoy the experience.
    
      Oh sure.  The 'scenery' was pleasant.  I just found the slavering
    off-putting.
    
      I guess my bottom line is that I don't like seeing _anyone_
    objectified in this manner -- men, women, children.  If someone
    chooses to earn a living or seek entertainment from such, fine.
    It's just not for me.
    
      Ann

    I might go with women friends just for a laugh, and to get together.
     But I don't particularly enjoy this type of thing.  I went to The
    Golden Banana, in Peabody, MA, several years ago.  It did seem sort
    of pitiful to me the way some of the women got so excited over it.
     It seems like a poor substitute for a real date or relationship
    or sex to me.
    
    What bothers me most about strippers is that no matter whether it's
    men stripping and women watching, or women stripping and men watching,
    I always get the feeling that the women are being exploited by the
    men.  When women strip, and men watch, I always feel that the men
    are exploiting the women by paying to watch them.  But, then when
    men strip, and women watch, I feel that the men are exploiting the
    women by getting them to pay to watch them.
    
    Lorna
    

    re.4  I must disagree - in both cases it's some mercenary
    type exploiting men and women both. Sadly, most of these 
    lizards are male. 

    Re .5, you may be right.  I was just saying how these situations
    make me *feel.*
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .5
    
    I don't know, the Chippendales I have seen, are all male :-), which
    certainly makes them men....
    :-)

    
    I think if I went to that place I'd react much the way I did when
    I visited Provincetown a few weeks ago:
    
    "Water everywhere and not a drop to drink"
    
    
    Seriously, I think it would be a silly thing to do. Do some women
    actually find it possible to oggle some posturing egomaniac they've
    never met?                         
    
    Roberta

    Re .8, I know, it's bad enough oggling the posturing egomaniacs I
    have met.
    
    Lorna
    

    in re .8
    
    Well I saw them on Donovan about 6 years ago and found them
    visually quite, um, asthetic?
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    I went to the Chippendales club in L.A. a little more than a year
    ago.  It's built up to be much more than it really is, and I
    was relieved to see that.  The men stripped down to g-strings
    which left little to the imagination, but at least they had 
    something on.  They were quite nice looking, masterful teasers,
    but the thing I enjoyed most was watching other womens reactions
    to the Chippendales' dancing.  One thing I didn't enjoy was when
    the show was over they opened the doors to men (men aren't allowed
    during the show), the guys that came in seemed to think that every
    woman in the place was ready to be picked up and carried off!
    
    I went out of curiosity (and because we had some friends visiting
    from back east and that seemed to be THE THING to do in L.A.!) but
    I wouldn't spend the money to see it again.  It was a fun night
    out, but I'd much rather just go to dinner and out dancing somewhere.
    
    My two cents worth,
    Cherie                                                       

And I thought Chippendales were Walt Disney World characters!
				
						nancy b.
							

>    Seriously, I think it would be a silly thing to do. Do some women
>    actually find it possible to oggle some posturing egomaniac they've
>    never met?                         
    
    I'm sure that some women do, as they seem to be making enough money to
    further their existence.
    
    Are female strippers also "posturing egomaniacs," or just male ones?
    
    When you see a really hot jazz musician, do you say to yourself "She's
    just showing off," or do you try to appreciate her for her talents?
    I think a similar thing happens with strippers (of both sexes).
    
    The Doctah

    
    
    
    
    
    
    

>>    Seriously, I think it would be a silly thing to do. Do some women
>>    actually find it possible to oggle some posturing egomaniac they've
>>    never met?                         
>    
>    I'm sure that some women do, as they seem to be making enough money to
>    further their existence.

    Doc, does the phrase "RHETORICAL QUESTION" mean anything to you?
    
    >When you see a really hot jazz musician, do you say to yourself "She's
    >just showing off," or do you try to appreciate her for her talents?
    >I think a similar thing happens with strippers (of both sexes).
     
    I am not even going to dignify this ridiculous analogy between ART
    and sexual exploitation with a response.
    
    Roberta

    re.10 While they may be 'visually quite, um, aesthetic' that's
    not what they're selling. 
    
    For visual attraction I'd rather watch bodybuilders. They *are*
    posing for aesthetic reasons. 
    
    Dana
    
    (I must admit that some of the posing routines these days are
    a bit overdone)

    I'd toy with the idea....but I don't think I could justify the cost
    to myself.  I have, in the past, bought Chippendales posters, though.
    Good, clean, long-term dream-fodder there....
    
    I'd rather see a male dancer (jazz, ballet, you get the idea) than
    a male stripper....
    
    -Jody
    

    ROTTEN ATTITUDE, PERHAPS, BUT IF YOU'VE SEEM 'EM NAKED ONCE, YOU'VE
    SEEM 'EM ALL IN MY BOOK!
    
    IT JUST SEEMS SORT OF ANIMALISTIC TO ME.  I THOUGHT WOMEN WERE ABOVE
    ALL THAT SORT OF THING (UNLIKE SOME MEN WHO FREQUENT STRIP JOINTS!).
     IF YOU CAN GET YOUR SWEETHEART/HUSBAND/SO TO STRIP AT HOME, WHY
    BOTHER????
    
    MY FRIENDS HAVE TOLD ME HOW WILD THOSE THINGS WERE, AND FRANKLY,
    I DON'T THINK IT'S MY IDEA OF SUCH A GREAT TIME.
    
    
    TAMMI
    
    
    
    

    Re .10, .16, (Bonnie & Jody) well, when I want to look at men for
    aesthetic reasons I usually go to a rock concert: :-)
    
    Jon Bon Jovi (the hair, the smile, the cute little body in the skin
                     tight pants)
    
    Simon LeBon (Duran Duran) (I once saw him very close-up in person
                               and, well, he took my breath away :-),
                               gorgeous body and face, great dancer,
                               he's the best looking man I've ever seen
                               in person, his photos or videos do not
                               do him justice)
    
    George Michael - (hair, face, body, clothes, smile, the way he moves,
                       talk about aesthetic perfection in a human body)
    
    Bruce Springsteen - (my all-time favorite sex object, great body,
                         great stage personality, and he's *my age*!
                         i'd rather see Bruce's cute little body in
                         jeans and a t-shirt than any other man naked
                         :-)  )
    
    Or....
    
    I could just go and see the new Indiana Jones movie for the third
    time.  The best part of all those movies is just *looking* at Harrison
    Ford.  He has great shoulders and a jaw line that is aesthetically
    unbelievable!  *sigh*
    
    Well, I'd better calm down....
    
    Lorna
    

    I went in Hawaii with a group of friends.  We had a good time. 
    
    I'd been to the Golden Banana once and there's no comparison.  The
    Banana was VERY smoky, noisy, crowded.  It was a strip joint, but
    it billed itself as a strip joint, so there's no complaint.  I think
    the fun is going with a crowd.  The MC had a field day joking about
    the school bus in the parking lot -- most of the group were jr.
    high teachers.  I can't imagine going there again, but I'm glad
    I went once.
    
    Chippendales had a whole different atmosphere.  It was a nice
    nightclub, there was room between the tables for waiters to get
    through, you could get a drink without waiting a half hour.  The
    customers dressed as if they were going out for a nice evening.  The
    Chips bill themselves as dancers, and they are good dancers.  The
    acts are well choreographed and well presented.
    
    Yes, some of the women acted like fools, but they paid their money
    - and who'se to say they don't act as foolish when they go out for
    an evening anywhere.  I can't say how anyone behaved after the show
    because we did stay.
    
    Yes, Ian, you can bring your camera.  Almost everyone there that
    night had one.
      
    
    
    

    re .18
    
     Lorna-
    
     You have proved that it is possible to talk about the aesthetic value
    of <men> in the paradigm of physical beauty without being inherently
    exploitive. You basically dissected each man on your list, and talked
    about parts of them without referring to their basic humanity or worth
    as a person. _There is nothing basically wrong or exploitive about
    this._
    
    I just thought I'd mention it since some people seem to think there is
    something wrong about talking about people's physical makeup.
    
    The Doctah

    re .20, except I really do care about the humanity of each of the
    men on my list, and I do appreciate them all as people, especially
    Bruce Springsteen whose music has brought me a lot of happiness.
    None of these men is just "another pretty face" to me.  I consider
    them all to be very talented, and I think Bruce has a lot of
    interesting thoughts to share with the world.  I really don't think
    I did separate my appreciation of their looks from their humanity.
     I think I kept it in mind, and I think that the way each of them
    expresses his humanity (while performing, especially Bruce's
    conversations with his audience, the humour and humanness that Harrison
    Ford brings to his roles, and the obvious love that Jon Bon Jovi
    feels for his fans) has played a part in my finding them attractive.
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
    I sort of entered the comment about photography as a joke, but not
    entirely.
    
    In my limited experience of nightclubs, those that permit private
    photography tend to offer an artistic show. Those that don't typically
    are closer to the 'clip joint' scenario.
    
    /. Ian .\

    in re .18
    
    As far as Harrison Ford is concerned I'm with you Lorna, I've thought
    he was gorgeous ever since the first Star Wars movie!
    
    Bonnie

>I really don't think
>    I did separate my appreciation of their looks from their humanity.   
    
    But all you wrote about was their physical traits. I didn't see "..he's
    a wonderful human being with nice buns." Men do this sort of thing, and
    we get creamed. But then, that's different, isn't it?
    
    

    
    
    	I went to a show a long time ago and to tell you the truth that
    	was enough for me.  I think (just my own opinion) that Men or
    	Women stripping is very demeaning.  I think women strippers
    	are bit more rude as far I have heard of what thier little
	acts consist of, (EX: Blue Moon).  What I hear about men stripping 
    	and that time I went was mostly just dancing and the G-String
        stayed ON, but I'm sure they can get just as rude.  I just find it
    	very sad that some people enjoy watching others do something so 
    	belittling.  
    
    
    	Zina
	

    RE .24, well, I'll try to explain how I think it's different.  I
    don't know if I can. *sigh*

    Anyway, when I see businessmen or engineers (some SHR employees
    may be familiar with Pudgy's special little lunches) at a strip show 
    watching anonymous women strip and dance, or I see construction
    workers whistling at some woman they don't know and don't really
    want to know, or I hear men talking about some secretary's or assembly
    works ass, etc., or I hear men talking about women in Playboy or
    Hustler, etc., I get the feeling that these men consider themselves
    to be *above* the women.  I get the impression the men think they
    are better than these women, and that they would not want their
    wife, or their sister, or their daughter to be one of these women.
     I get the impression that men think these women are some group
    of sub-humans put on earth for the men's mindless, emotionless,
    pleasure.
    
    But, I don't think I'm *better* than the rock stars I admire, or
    the actors I think are attractive.  I respect them as talented
    individuals, and in most cases I know a little bit about them as
    people, and I certainly know their names.  In most cases they are
    people I would be proud to have as friends or relatives.  They are
    not sluts that I look down on, and wouldn't want my friends or business
    associates to know about.  Do you see what I'm saying?  So, I don't
    think my admiring these famous men, partly for their looks, is really
    the same as exploiting nameless, anonymous, people for their sexuality.
     These men are not desperate or starving, forced to expose their
    bodies to strangers for some money.
    
    Lorna
    

    I recently went to the "Men in Motion" show at the Palace in Saugus,
    MA. Not ever having seen male strippers, I had no idea what to expect,
    but I must say it really was done in a tame manner. The
    men were attractive and for the most part, very good dancers. And
    none of us really found the show to be very erotic (or maybe we've
    all died and just haven't found out yet :-) !).
    
    To me, it seemed that everyone was really just there to have fun
    and no one really seemed to take any of it seriously. Sort of like
    a "lets play make-believe" thing, with the men trying to act out
    some romantic fantasy...sort of like watching a music video that you would
    see on MTV (except, of course, they ended up wearing only their
    G-strings). It was kind of like everyone was acting a part...the
    audience included. 
    
    It was interesting to note that, for the most part, the audience
    is not allowed to touch the strippers. Money is collected by someone
    who just follows the stripper as he travels through the audience.
    The really strange part for me is when the stripper does get off
    the stage, women start waving dollar bills, and the stripper goes
    and kisses each one waving a dollar bill. But a *huge* part of the
    audience (which was all female, BTW), seemed to enjoy that immensely.
    I personally would rather kiss someone I know.
    
    Anyway, IMHO, I think I would go again, just for laughs and to see some
    good dancing, but it's not something I would be motivated to do
    often. I think I'd just get bored.
    
    Joan G. 
    
     
    
    Joan G.
    
                                                 
    
    

    Well, I'd go again...  
    
    erotic there are not... good clean entertainment they are...

    
    The music was EXTRMEMLY well chorographed...  these men WERE body
    builders - that was obvious - and I didn't see a single thing wrong
    with the whole evening...
    
    Police were there to keep any groupies under controlled, and no,
    you weren't allowed to touch them, if you wanted to give them any
    sort of tip it was handed to them, not placed anywhere around or
    on there body...

    ... and a couple of them could lip sing better than some rock stars
    could actually sing :-)
    
    and -- make sure you check out the June 1990 portion of their 1990
    calendar when it comes out....  it will be well worth your while
    :-).. I can assure you!!!!!!

    Re: .0
    
    I probably wouldn't go unless I was in a really random mood.  I'm not
    terribly fond of poses and bodybuilders.  Even if I were to do it for
    the aesthetic experience, my tastes run to longer, leaner builds than 
    the average beefcake frequently exhibited.
    
    Re: .14
    
    No such thing as a rhetorical question in a public forum, I've noticed.
    
    Re: .17
    
    >I THOUGHT WOMEN WERE ABOVE ALL THAT SORT OF THING (UNLIKE SOME MEN WHO
    >FREQUENT STRIP JOINTS!).
    
    Nope; lascivious drooling is an equal opportunity reaction.  Women are
    just as base and vile as men, all in all.

    re .26
    
    Well said Lorna! I think you make an important distinction and state
    it very clearly.
    
    Dorian

    Nope, I wouldn't go.  
    
    I think I am a very liberal, open-minded individual, and far from being
    prudish, but I have no desire to see a bunch of strange men bump and  
    grind.  I would much rather see my SO bump and grind for *me*!!! 
    (then I get put the dollars where ever I want!!  ;-)     )
    
    L.

    
    
    	Well I've been to see Chippendales twice.  Once in
    	Boston about 3 years ago and once in Lowell just recently.
    	Both times I had a great time.  There were women there for
    	their 'bachelorette parties' and some there just for a ladies
    	night out etc.  When I saw them in Boston you could walk up
    	to the stage hand them a dollar and get a kiss.  But when I
    	saw them in Lowell supposedly the MA laws had changed or 
    	something because you could not kiss the dancers.  you could
    	hand them a dollar but the rest of your body had to stay 
    	18" away or more from the dancer.  (unless you were lucky
    	enough to be pulled up on stage)
    
    	It was not really wild.  There were just a bunch of ladies out
    	to have a good time.  The men were gorgeous, good dancers
    	and were there to entertain.  
    
    	Would I go again?  You bet!!  Maybe for MY bachelorette party!
    
    	JJ
    

    I haven't seen the Chippendales yet. They came to Worcester last
    year and sold out before we could get our $20+ tickets.
    
    But I have been to two other male strip acts, the first time alone,
    the second time with my mom. 
    
    The first time was in a small intimate bar and the dancers got REAL
    close, and one even started grinding on the floor with one of the
    women. There was one extremely virile Italian guy who definitely
    got my dollar, but all in all, it was a bit too "intimate" for me.
    
    The second time, it was as much fun to watch the women's reactions
    as it was to see the men. They each had an "act" in which they came
    out in some costume based on a profession. And they stripped as
    they danced as they strutted... the whole ambience was one of FUN.
    
    A couple of guys had stuffed the g-string a bit un-naturally. (Yeah,
    I DO notice these things!) But no g's came off. Unless you wanted
    to pay $50 for a pose with him after the show.
    
    I'd go again with a fun crowd, no prudes please. Its just another
    form of entertainment, to me, not something I think any of us were
    wetting our pants over. The first one was designed more along those
    lines, and I have to admit, that's not something I aim to do in
    public with strangers. 
    
    I think if you want a FUN experience, a show like Chippendales is
    the thing to do. Then again, if you're cheap like me, just watch
    Superman videos. I can assure you, I don't watch for the acting...

    I went to the Chippendale show in Worcester last year.  The performance
    was interesting.  Would not go again.
    
    A number of years ago, I went with a group of women to Fat Alberts
    in Dudly, where the G-strings did come off.  What surprised me was
    the white haired ladies pushing the younger ones aside to get a
    better view of the action on the stage.

    Chippendales is coming to the Manchester/Portsmouth NH area soon.
    Anyone know the schedule, location?
    
    Conni