Conference turris::womannotes-v2

Have you compared notes with anyone else who has 'panic attacks'? I have
something that I termed 'panic attacks', though my medical bills say "Simple
Phobia" (simple?!?! ha! :-). I'd be glad to chat about mine off-line, but I
find it just too difficult to discuss electronically.
	Mez

    That's a really frightening set of symptoms!   I don't blame you for
    being really concerned, and suspecting that it is not "all in your
    head".  I think you should get a second, or third, or whatever,
    opinion, and keep at it until you find a doctor who can help.  You
    might have something like a seizure disorder or an allergy to
    something, that could be controlled by medication (I hate taking it,
    too, but it is better than the alternative!).
    
    Keep us posted - the community cares!
    
    /Charlotte
    
    Anyhow, I hate it when (older men, usually) doctors try to tell a woman
    patient that some problem is psychosomatic just because they haven't
    found the cause of it yet!   Sometimes I really suspect that they look
    harder for the underlying physical cause when the patient is male
    because they are less prone to dismiss the problem as "unreal". 
    Sigh...
    

    I think Mez has a good point.  I *used to* get anxiety attacks and
    I would think I was the only person who ever experienced such things.
    I thought for sure I was going crazy so never mentioned to anyone.
    Some of the symptoms I had sound somewhat similar to yours.  Then
    I found someone who had similar experiences (no two are the same)
    and it made me feel a 100% better.  Mine finally went away after
    dealing with some feelings that were buried deep, deep inside. 
    
    Maybe talking about it with others who have gone through it would
    help.  Feel free to contact me if you'd like to talk.
    
    - L
    talking about it with others who have gone through it would help.

    God, how frightening.
    
    It sounds like you're afraid that the cat scan (sans dye) might
    not have picked up something in your brain.  Do you know anything
    about MRI?  It's one of the tests that was mentioned for my daughter
    to see if her hearing problem is neurological.  I don't know anything
    about it yet.  Maybe someone else knows more...
    
    Have you looked into any non-traditional areas of medicine/treatment
    (eg., holistic, acupuncture)?  Again, I don't know anything about
    these, but (a) it can't hurt to explore all possibilities, and (b)
    my impression is that there is less of a tendency to "pooh-pooh"
    what is not understood.
    
    Please keep us informed.
    
    -Tracy
    

    
    Prior to joining Digital, I received a PhD in Clinical Psychology and
    spent 2 years doing post-doctoral work at UCLA in Neuropsychology.
    
    Could the symptoms you describe be due to Panic attacks or a Anxiety
    Disorder?  Yes, they could.
    
    They also could be caused by lots of other factors.
    
    Have you ever had an EEG taken--particularly taken WHILE you have this
    onset of symptoms?  That could be very helpful in ruling out some
    causes.
    
    Relaxation may help you deal with the tremendous stress that these
    symptoms cause, but if it were me, I would keep searching for a
    physical cause; it could be a panic attack, but some of the symptoms
    you describe are pretty unusual for a panic disorder.
    
    I would try to find an MD, preferably a neurologist; but if not, then
    probably an internist that I was comfortable with and who would be
    willing to work with me to solve this problem.  This may include trying
    various medications (not necessarily psychotropic ones) to work
    backwards to solve the problem that way.
    
    Many physicians are quick to run through a battery to tests, and if the
    results are negative, then conclude that the problem MUST be
    psychological.  Obviously that is not necessarily the case.
    
    If you would like to talk about this further, please feel free to give
    me a call.
                                            
    Take Care,
    
    	Don
    
    
    

      Two things to check,

      One, it could be a panic or anxiety attack. When I worked in
      cancer therapy I started to get them when the job started to get
      to me. It was like a heart attack and I could hardly breathe. I
      actually had to crawl to a phone once to call someone to take me
      to the hospital. They stopped when I quit my job and left the
      cancer therapy department.

      Two, when I worked at the above job it was for First Presbyterian
      hospital in Denver. This was a regional center and we took all the
      "hopeless" cases and did a lot of experimental work. I can't tell
      you how often we saw advanced cases of rare cancers that none of
      the patient's local physicians recognised as cancer. Go to a
      regional center or large teaching hospital where the doctors are
      up on rare diseases and see if they find anything.

      Just as an aside. Why not decide to postpone the wedding
      indeffinately and see if that has any affect on how you feel.
      It's a long shot but if you don't improve the wedding may not be
      possible anyway. liesl

    This maybe off the track but have you thought of seeing a good
    algerist. Your problem may be related to an algery that is just
    showing itself. I say this because not do I have them but my nephew
    has one to wheat, and caused hyperactivity. This becomes an
    environmently related factor. Think back where or when these attacks
    occur and try to corrolate if something is in common.
    
    good luck in finding the cause
    steve
    

    You'd be shocked at what kinds of severe allergic reactions some people
    have.  I just have sinus allergies, which are a nuisance but can be
    kept under control by weekly shots and a bunch of various medications.
    My brother, however, has terrible muscle spasm attacks, sometimes in
    his diaphram, sometimes his intestines, even his heart.  It took more
    than ten years for any doctor to finally figure out what was going on,
    and many emergency hospital trips and such.  It turns out that he is
    extremely allergic to certain chemicals, including some insecticides
    that are commonly used to spray for cockroaches in the cafeteria when
    he was a college student.  He used to frequently end up in the hospital
    in an oxygen tent!  Unfortuneately for him, he is so sensitive that he
    cannot undergo the densensitization shots like me: within twenty
    minutes of the first, minimum-dosage, shot, he was rushed to the
    hospital from the allergy clinic!  At least now that the family knows
    what causes the problem, we can help him avoid running into the various
    chemicals, although of course you can't when you don't know has been
    used; however, we do pretty well by being vigilant and he hasn't had a
    real serious attack since the source of the problem was finally
    identified.  It was a big relief to know that it wasn't some kind of
    neurological problem, anyhow.  A long series of incorrect diagnoses
    came from various doctors over the years though, including telling him
    that he had a psychological problem.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    My heart goes out to you -- it's so frightening to be in pain and
    not know what the cause is.
    
    A good friend of mine had attacks similar to what you describe.
    Her psychologist diagnosed them as panic attacks, but like you,
    she didn't feel that anything particularly stressful was happening
    in her life.  What finally worked for her was hypnosis therapy.
    She and the psychologist were able to uncover, using hypnosis,
    some really deeply-buried feelings from her childhood which she
    was not consciously aware of.  They were then able to begin working
    them out, and panic attacks subsided.  Now she only rarely has them.
    
    Just my .02 -- please keep us posted!!          
    
                             ...Lisa V...
    

    As a child, I was frightened by the erratic behaviour of the mother of
    one of my friends.  For years she was in and out of doctors' offices
    and sanitoriums... usually she was termed "manic depressive". My own
    mother saw her through more than one bad turn. 
                                                                         
    Today she is doing wonderfully.  She somehow discovered she was
    severely allergic to a lot of foods (and I mean _a_lot_).  She has a
    very limited diet now, but the symptoms have disappeared.  Both she and
    her husband are furious about the "lost" years (though they celebrate
    their "new" life on occasion by rolling up the rugs and dancing the
    night away). She has started a support group for others like her (who
    have been told for years there wasn't a physical cause for their
    illness), writes their newletter, and is a great source of information
    on food allergies, holistic practices. She's like a new person --
    creativity flows from her.  For my mother's birthday she gave her
    a collage pieced together from their years of friendship.
                                                                      
    She recently sent me a book titled "The Nutrition Detective".  I  
    haven't started it yet, but from flipping through it, I think it  
    lists "symptoms" of various illnesses and possible dietary causes.
    I haven't got the book with me, but I'll post the author and ISBN
    number when I get a chance.          
                                         
    Helen                                     

    Hi.  What you have described is something I can relate to.  At one
    point in my life (I was exactly YOUR age!) I experienced the same
    symptoms, but without the sore head.  It drove me crazy too.  It
    only lasted three months, but it was during a very trying period
    in my life.  At the time, I didn't think I was going through stress,
    but I was.
    
    Anyway, what I experienced was "hyperventilation".  And I have this
    feeling, being so young and all, and going through the wedding (enough
    to make anyone stressed out and anxious!), you are probably panicing,
    (oops, panicking) and thus, the attacks.  I couldn't even drive
    at one point, and had to be rushed to the hospital from the Mass
    Pike by staties because of the problem!
    
    Carry a paper bag everywhere you go.  And when you feel the breathing,
    dizziness, etc., put the bag over your mouth and nose and BREATHE!
     Try not to be conscious of your breathing pattern, it will just
    heighten the hyperventilating. One of my girlfriends died and my
    friend and I went to the funeral.  In the car on the way to the
    wake she felt the same symptoms you feel and I felt.  I grabbed
    a bag and she felt fine once she breathed in it a couple times.
    
    There is nothing wrong with your concern about a brain tumour. 
    You are young, though, and if your cat scan came out normal, you
    don't really have to worry.  If you are that concerned, I suggest
    for peace of mind you get an MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging) done,
    with and without contrast.  My ex-boyfriend has a glioma, and I
    went through all the testing and surgery with him.  He experienced
    blindness, severe headaches and turned "yellow" and bloated before
    I got him to a hospital and they found the tumor.  So you don't
    seem to have these problems.  (BTW, a glioma is a brain tumour of
    the glue holding the brain together - it's inoperable).
    
    I realize that you have a very real fear and it should not be treated
    lightly.  Do get the MRI for your peace of mind.  But I bet once
    your wedding jitters are past you, you'll start to feel much better.
    
    Good Luck and let us know what happens -- we care!
    
    Tammi
    

    Book referenced in .11 :-
    
    _The_Nutrition_Detective_, 
    Nan Kathryn Fuchs, Ph.D., 
    ISBN 0-87477-350-4
    
    As I said in previous note, I haven't read it yet myself but know
    of one success story from following the "food allergy" diet described
    therein.
                                                                 
    Just scanned the bibliography and there are listings for the following
    diets (which are balanced eating programs, as opposed to weight-loss
    "diets").  The book requires that you give a lot of thought to your
    current diet, keeping a log of what you eat and how you feel. 
                                                                 
    . Amenorrhea diet                                            
    . Anorexia diet                                              
    . Arthritis diet                                             
    . Birth Control Pill diet                                    
    . Blood Sugar diet                                           
    . Bulemia and Compulsive-Eating diet                         
    . Caffeine-User's diet                                       
    . Candida Albicans diet
    . Cyst and Tumor diet
    . Good Digestion diet
    . Headache diet
    . Healthy Skin diet
    . Herpes diet
    . Menopause diet
    . Menstrual Cramps diet
    . Osteoporosis diet
    . Pregnancy diet
    . Premenstrual Syndrome diet
    . Recovering Alcoholic's diet
    . Strenuous Exerciser's diet 
    . Strong Immune System diet  
    . Social Drinker's diet      
    . Smoker's diet              
                                 
                                 

    Based upon the symptoms you've described it sounds very much like you
    are having "panic attacks".  About 4 1/2 years ago I had a similar set
    of symptoms which were diagnosed as panic, or anxiety, attacks.   At
    first I didn't believe it.  
    
    Then, one night I had the worst nightmare ever about my sister who had 
    died 10 years earlier (she was 27, I was 14) of a cancer so rare that 
    they gave her a case number.  The dream was so frightening, I went to 
    see my priest.  It was in talking with him that I realized there were 
    deep seated feelings left over from my sister's death that I never 
    fully worked through.  Once I began working through those feelings, the
    panic attacks subsided.
    
    A previously reply also suggested the possibility of a seizure disorder. 
    The symptoms you described can be typical in some people with seizure
    disorders.
    
    For example, people who have seizures usually do feel completely worn
    out, or lazy, immediately following a seizure.  Dizziness and the
    tingly feeling in the head are often a part of the "aura" that some
    people experience at the onset of a seizure.
    
    If the cat scan did not show anything, you can be relatively sure that
    nothing like a tumor exists.  
    
    My suggestion would be to do two things:
    
    First, see another Neurologist.  If you are located in Mass. or NH and
    need the name of one, let me know and I can probably help with that.
    
    Second, pursue this with a therapist.  It could well be panic attacks.
    If it is, medication is sometimes prescribed in addition to the therapy
    sessions.
    
    Good Luck and if you would like to talk off-line, feel free to call me.
    
    - Beckie
    

    I read this note and thought "D-- will have some ideas about this."
    So I finally called her, and she had a new thought on this (and
    an old one: Have an extensive allegy test).
    
    She thinks you may have a pinched nerve in your spine or neck.
    I told her that you had seen a neurologist.  She said to see another
    one, and get X-rays taken of your entire neck and spine.  She
    recommends a chiropractor strongly.
    
    Whatever else you do, you should keep a notebook of your *every*
    activity.  For example, bending over or even standing on one foot
    might, even an hour later, trigger one of these attacks.  The
    more extensive your diary, the greater the probability that some
    doctor will be able to figure out what is happening.
    
    She also wanted to know if you felt differently after a massage;
    that is, if you even have massages.
    
    							Ann B.

re: massages

I can recommend a massuese [sp?].
	Mez

    In addition to possible food allergies, have you investigated the
    possibility of too little or too MUCH of various vitamins and minerals?
    
    I have been reading about nutrition recently, because I plan to
    have children in a couple of years, and proper nutrition should
    start before the kid does (did I say that well?  anyway...)  I started
    with "Let's Have Healthy Children" by Adelle Davis.  However, she
    makes a bunch of claims that just didn't make sense.  So I'm now
    reading a book called "Jane Brody's Nutrition Book" (by Jane Brody!,
    Bantam Books, 1987.  ISBN 0-553-34332-7).  I heartily recommend
    it.
    
    Anyway, in this book, it talks about the dangers of overdoses of
    vitamins and minerals, as well as the more commonly known dangers
    of a deficiency.  A couple of them sounded like they might contribute
    to what you've experienced.  I'd like to reproduce part of two tables
    in that book (without permission) -- however, I certainly am not
    an expert, and there's more information available in the book, and
    from other people.  This is just a suggestion to consider another
    area which may be causing/contributing to your problem.
    
    (pg 159)
    
    Vitamin A
    (best sources)  (main     (deficiency   (risks of
                     roles)    symptoms)     megadoses) 
    		                            Blurred vision, loss of appetite,
    					    headaches, skin rashes,
    					    nausea, diarrhea, hair loss,
    					    menstrual irregularites,
    					    extreme fatigue, joint pain,
    					    (a few others),
    					    injury to brain and nervous
    					    system.
    
    
    (Hope this is lining up correctly -- all those were megadose risks)
    
    Under the list of minerals, there are LOTS which are dangerous in
    high doses -- I will abbreviate a lot, but if anyone would like
    me to photocopy the table and send it to you, please send mail.)
    
    Calcium:
    (same categories)		(deficiency)	    (risks)
    						    Drowsiness, extreme
    						    lethargy, impaired
    						    absorption of (several)
                                            
    Phosphorus
    				Weakness, loss of
    				appetite, malaise,
    				bone pain...
    
    Magnesium
    				Muscular twitching    Disturbed nervous-
    				and tremors...        system function
    				muscle weakness, leg  because the calcium-
    				and foot cramps       magnesium ratio
                                                      is unbalanced,
    						      catharsis...
    
    Finally, on page 195, it talks about mineral megadoses, and how
    some minerals are stored in the body.  (pg 196) "...And most of the
    so-called trace minerals, which are needed in only micro quantities,
    are deadly poisons in doses much beyond the amounts essential for
    good nutritional health...."  There is a lot more information, as
    well.
    
    Best of luck in finding a cure, and the source of the problem. 
    Please keep us all informed.
    
    (If the tabbing on the table doesn't make it, I'll re-enter it in
    a later reply.)
    
    		-- Peg
                        

    re: author
    
    I went through this same malady when I was 24. It was the most horrible
    time of my life. I finally went to an old doctor who believed that
    the body made constant changes but significant ones evry seven years.
    I thought sure....but I'm 24 not 21 or 28. He said these changes
    are exact but effect some people much worse than others. Like
    headaches, menstrual pain, etc. I was never quite sure whether he
    was right or not but he also pointed out other things. 
    
    Do you exercise or do anything physical?? 
    What do you do when these attacks happen?? Lay down?? sit??? worry??
    Do you notice that you have excessive gas???
    
    Here's what he told me to do:
    
    Get up walk immediately when I felt this way. It will move the trapped
    gas that creates pressure on your lungs and causes the sense of
    suffocation. The gas does no allow lung expansion. Make it a point
    to walk after each meal to aid digestion. 
    
    Are you overweight?? Do you drink alot of soft drinks or other
    carbonated beverages?? 
    
    Does the first attack hit around 9-10 in the morning??? Do you eat
    sugar cereal for breakfast?? If you do, you may be burning up the
    sugar and "falling off the cliff". 
    
    The other thing that he warned me about is eating too many foods
    with preservatives. They are chemicals and you may not be able to
    tolerate them.
    
    It took me a couple of years to get over the attacks. I couldn't
    drive long distances, stayed in the house on beautiful days. I always
    felt "lousy". My legs were shaky, I was always light headed.....
    
    If you want to discuss it with me send me a note at the above nodename
    or call me at 289-1182.
    
    BTW I'm 39.......
    
    Ken

    My father had your symptoms and it took a long time 
    to figure out exactly what it was, and how to treat it.
    They were panic attacks, and after experimenting with
    various medications, they hit upon the right one. It's
    not a tranquilizer, but a medication that provides
    a chemical your brain is not producing. Many disorders
    like this do have a biological basis. The only drawback
    for him his certain foods are restricted because of 
    the medication. His therapist works in conjunction
    with a nutritionist who monitors his diet. I can
    send you information on the medication and the 
    therapist (he is in the Lexington area) if you wish.  
    You are definitely not crazy, you just need to find
    a caring doctor willing to work with you, and this 
    unfortunately can take a long time.  
    
    Margaret @BARTLE::LESSARD
    
    
    
    
        

    I am experiencing many of the symptoms you describe; dizziness,
    feeling like I'm going to pass out, muscle twitches and spasms,
    insomnia, spaciness. I think it's stress related, considering what's
    going on in my life. I second all the replies that point to deeply
    repressed emotions, and unresolved childhood experiences, especially
    since you're anticipating marriage, which can trigger all KINDS
    of reactions.
    
    But stress can also effect biological changes that need to be dealt
    with in non-psychiatric ways. Someone recommended hair analysis
    to me, and I went yesterday to a specialist. Apparently they can
    tell the mineral content of your tissues through your hair, and
    then rescribe proper diet and supplements to restore nutrient balances.
    I won't know how the test came out for a week to ten days, but if
    this is of any interest to you, please contact me, and I can tell
    you how it goes.
    
    And, above all, I can REALLY relate to the terror when the attacks
    come, and how unpleasant each episode is. When it happens to me
    I just repeat to myself that everythins's OK, this is supposed to
    be happenning, and it will pass. I don't believe those things at
    the time, but repeating the words gives me something comforting
    to focus on, instead of the fear. I also second the idea of walking
    when having an attack. It may not stop the attack, but it can offset
    some of the fear the attack generates. 
                    
    Hope this helps.

    re.0 Have you been tested for Lyme Disease ? (mentioned elsewhere
    in this conference)

     "The physical symptoms usually associated with early Lyme disease
    are quite similar to what you would expect fronm a bad case of the
    flu: malaise (feeling really awful), stiff neck, chills, extreme
    fatigue, fevers, enlarged lymph nodes, (swollen glands), sore throat,
    severe headaches, body aches, bone pains and joint pains.


    later symptoms :
            
    "Many people complain of severe , chronic fatigue (an overwhelming
    sense of tiredness) and some suffer from cognitive problems such
    as a shortened span of attention, difficulty with short-term
    memory and an inability to concentrate. Other frequent, and 
    especially troublesome, complaints include sleep disturbances
    and mood swings......Lyme disease has been called a "great
    pretender" because it can resemble, quite literally, dozens of
    other illnesses. It has been said that it is one of the most
    frequently misdiagnosed illnesss in medicine today."

    From "The Invisible Predator" by Pamela V. Michaels
    "Deer ands Deer Hunting Magazine" August 1989 pp. 103-104

	Your symptoms certainly are complex, and you've clearly
examined many of the pathologies that are common to current medical
practice.  Also, it is quite clear that something is out of balance
with the health of your body - possibly more than one thing.  

	There are a number of syndromes, as indicated in previous
replies, that have many of the same complex symptoms and require
some sleuthing, experimentation and observation to uncover and
bring into balance.  At present, the ones which are common suspects
are allergies, candiaisis, hypoglycemia, stress, valley-fever type infections,
and sensitivity to environmental toxics, such as food additives and
preservatives, fumes, chemicals, mercury in fillings, ...  From what
you've indicated, you have uncovered no signs of major pathology such
as tumors, so you're more likely to have to look for subtler agents
or imbalances.

	You may from the above think this is a just a boutique sampler 
of popular culture medicine.  That's not the point.  There is widespread
need to keep perspective on what constitutes health, as opposed to
narrow, expensive, miracles of modern science.  Those, like Adelle Davis, 
who have worked extensively with correcting imbalances and irrational 
health practices, have contributed to a wider understanding of whole health.  
The tone of her books, and those of Carlton Fredericks whose research
also adds insights to the sources of common maladies, leaves something
to be desired.   Eating poorly and wondering why expensive medical
facilities don't treat the consequences is a common issue.

	I've observed similar symptoms shortly if I've been a long
time without eating, then quickly eat and start moving.  Particularly
if I've been under stress, skipping meals, loading up on carbohydrates,
and then on the run again.  Once I worked til past 9, drove home,
ate one yogurt, slept, had cereal, and started some yard work.
Within 20 minutes, I was dizzy, worried, and started to black out.  
Standing still and breathing steadily helped short-term, and
regaining a balance with stress supplement and better coping
worked too.

	These can be the symptoms of hypoglycemia.  Not as well known
as hyperglycemia, or diabetes, it is related in some ways.  It 
too masquerades as other ailments, notably anxiety attacks, headaches,
depression, fatigue, emotional ups and downs, craving for salt and sweets, 
sensitivity to noise and stress,... It's basically a case of low blood
sugar, caused, like diabetes, of taking in too much sugar or simple
carbohydrates, then unlike diabetes, stimulating a rush of insulin
or hyperinsulism, which brings the blood sugar level down below
resting stage.  Dealing with it takes restoring metabolic balances,
including cutting way down on refined carbohydrates, increasing
proteins and oils, taking stress supplements, and basically 
regulating imbalances.  This helps block opportunistic infections 
as well.

	As with the other suggestions, this is only a possibility,
not a medical certainty.  Certainly concentrating on centering yourself,
around your emotional and physical well-being is a priority for you.
You may not want to suspend all your activities or change your lifestyle
drastically, but at least scheduling time to concentrate, find your
center, rework your priorities, and keep up healthy practices won't hurt.
I have found a journal works wonders in tracking both emotional and
physical imbalances.   You can record thoughts and feelings, sort out
short term and long term goals and see your own ability to regulate
your health.  For what it's worth...