Conference turris::womannotes-v2

I've been in and out of DEC twice. My first job was a DEC, 2nd at Prime, and
now back here. There was nothing like notes in my first two jobs.

When I first started this job I found I had the time and energy to keep up with
my group's notesfiles, several notesfiles directly related to work, and several
more general notesfiles, some val-dif types, and some not.

At some point in my job I 'kicked in'. I've noticed it as a personal pattern; I
hang out for a little while, then catch on.

Now I have time for this notesfile, though I have to come in early, stay later,
and eat lunch in front of it. I keep up with my group's notesfiles. I bop in
and out of the notesfiles directly related to work.

I am at the most productive I've ever been right now. I like the balance.
	Mez

    I think you have hit upon something quite true.  People can become
    addicted to these conferences.  I think it is, in part, because
    we really don't have a lot of 1 x 1 contact with people face to
    face in our daily working lives.  Thus, the conferences seem to
    fill that need to communicate and although it is second-hand
    communication (not face to face) it *seems* that way at times.
    
    Amen to what you have commented upon.  And again, Amen to giving
    up the addiction.
    
    Marilyn

    I find that participating in some notesfiles gives me a better feel
    for who and what I am, and where I am in life as well as at DEC.
     I read work-related conferences, valdif conferences, and some others
    for self-improvement and fun when I can.  
    
    I think I would be equally or less productive if notes were removed
    forever - I feel the harder you work, the harder you have to "play"
    (even if that play is educational, enjoyable, and you feel it is
    well worth the time spent).  When I was a co-op at DEC I saw many
    people "wasting time" with DND, MORIA, and other games - or simply
    sitting at their desks reading - there were no notes then, but they
    still didn't have great productivity.  I believe the amount of work a
    person will do has little to do with what distractions are around
    them.  Some people will be distracted by almost anything.
    
    When I'm cranking on a manual I'm in depth, I've reached total "flow"
    or "slack", whatever you'd care to call it.  I am engrossed.  I
    feel the power of my abilities come to the fore as I create and
    rework.  This is what will increase my productivity.  I *love* my
    job.  
    
    If I were only able to read notes after hours, that would be
    acceptible, too...but I hope I have enough control not to let notes
    impact my job performance.
    
    -Jody
    

    Re .4, what does sex have to do with noting? (and, anyway, speak
    for yourself! :-) )
    
    It's surprising that such a well-known noter as yourself should
    have this attitude. :-)
    
    To be honest, my job would be hell without notes.  But, then I'm
    not one of those people who has found a job that they love.
    
    Actually, before I discovered notes about 3 yrs. ago, I spent just
    as much time at work not working, only I spent it talking ("shooting
    the sh*t") with co-workers, usually about stuff not 1/2 as interesting
    as the stuff in notes.  Now, instead of making boring chit-chat
    with whoever happens to sit near me I quickly check a notesfile
    when I need a break.
    
    I think notes do serve a purpose, as Jody described.  Anyway, who
    wants to work in a sweatshop?  (I ask myself, what would *I* - a
    secretary - really get out of it if DEC was more productive?  A
    handful of men at the top might make a few more million?  But, what
    would I get?  Frankly, should I bust my a** just so a few rich men
    can get a little richer?  I think not.)
    
    Lorna  
    

For as long as I have a skill people will pay dearly for, I will demand a
humane work environment. When I can't do it that way, I guess I'll have to
learn more about economics, philosophy, sociology, and polictical action.
	Mez

    Re:  .6   I agree with you Eagle.
    
    We all work for the same company and want, I hope, that company
    to prosper.  I try to do the best I can at my job, and ya, sometimes
    I think "why....they aren't paying me enough to do this", but if
    I didn't do the best I can then I'd earn less (i.e. no raises) and
    because I am in a visable job, to DEC and customers, if I didn't
    do the best and feel positive about Digital, it may come across
    to the customer and they may think "gee, maybe DEC isn't the best
    place to look for equipment. 
    
    P.
    

    Work-related noting is certainly important.  The notes files for
    the products I work with provide an unofficial support tool.  In
    fact, life could be a lot easier for us if people in the field could
    have regular access to the notes.
    
    As far as employee-interest noting goes, I've found it to be very
    useful in some ways.  Casual noting helps reduce stress.  (The Dave
    Barry notes file had better be the last to go!)  Even not-so-casual
    noting has its benefits.  I've learned a lot about the dynamics
    of argument and communication.  This comes in handy in "real time"
    situations.
    
    Very few things (if any) are inherently bad.  Noting is not inherently
    bad.  Allowing noting to reduce productivity is bad, but the fault
    doesn't lie with the notes file or the notes software.

    	Marge (in .10) brought up a good point (about not being in
    	a standard 8_to_5 job.)  Most of my heaviest noting is done
    	from home (because of my non-standard work schedule.)
    
    	Sometimes I use notes to unwind before I go to sleep in the
    	morning after work.  People have commented to me more than
    	once (but not recently) that after having spent two or three
    	heavy hours in notes, I disappear for 6 hours and then return.
    	(That was me going across the hall to my bedroom and snoozing
    	for a quick 6 hours before returning to the discussion.) :-)
	
    	As for people who note mostly during work hours, I've heard
    	quite a few people say that it helps them to keep occupied
    	during times when they would be otherwise "waiting" at their
    	desks (for compiles, or customer support phone calls, etc.)
    	Noting seems a lot less disruptive during those times than
    	walking around chatting, or trying to half-start some other
    	project.
    
    	It keeps people at their terminals typing so that when the
    	"wait state" is over, the person is completely in position
    	to resume the former activity.
    
    	In other words, it's just making good use of "null" time,
    	like a batch job.  :-)

    	RE: .14
    
    	In my case, Digital paid for the phone install (because they
    	asked me to do it for my job, i.e., quick home response to
    	standby.)  Since then, the only expense is a small monthly
    	charge, and I have been paying it (since I use it for both
    	work and non-work.)
    
    	The call to the modem pool is a local call, no expenses there.
    

    I've seen noting be both productive and destructive.  
    
    I too am measured on output ("just bring it in on time and under
    budget, high quality too!").  If I want to note for an hour, I know
    that I'm going to be here at my desk later in the day, week or quarter
    getting the work done.  Alternatively, if I'm on a roll with my
    writing, I've been known to sit at my desk from 5 pm til midnight
    taking advantage of that.
    
    If the individual is committed to productivity, and sets reasonable
    goals with her/his manager, and meets/exceeds those goals, the "how" should
    be up to the employee.                       
    
    If an individual is generally regarded as less than productive,
    always has an excuse, is hard to find, and difficult to supervise,
    I'd ask them to do their noting on their time until their performance
    reached acceptable levels.
    
    I don't know who it is the analysts think are so unproductive at
    DEC.  In my group, technical software course development, a number
    of us joke about the regular hours kept by the "weekend and evening"
    club.  Perhaps that is related to how we are measured, though. 
    We write a project plan, get our schedules and budgets approved,
    and then are measured on how well we meet our projected goals. 
                       
    The other thing that notes has given me is an incredible network,
    and a powerful sense of loyalty and belonging to something much
    bigger than myself.  I have often amazed people in my group by how
    quickly I can answers and support on a variety of interesting subjects
    when the non-noters don't even have a place to start.
    
    I love DEC, both work AND notes, and I'm extremely committed to
    maintaining the level of performance that allows me to do both!
    
    Holly

    I am currently laying in bed, with a stomach that isn't sure it
    ever wants to live again or not.  Funny, although I could hardly
    hold my head up yesterday, and nearly passed out at work, my boss
    still called me, and needed something that only I could do.  I logged
    in and did it.  Today, I rigged the terminal next to my pillow,
    as he had some work that HAD to be done today, so between the bathroom
    and falling asleep, the work was done.  I didn't complain, and as
    I told him, DEC doesn't pay me to get sick, they pay me to work.
    
    So, when I do note on company time, I tend to look at it as a well
    needed break.  I do try to limit my noting time to lunch, before
    and after work...  but there are times at work that instead of
    screaming and losing control, I return to my office log into notes,
    and cool down...
    
    Job related note conferences I look at as job related, and I read
    them on official work time.  When I do time management, I make sure
    the time is there to read job related conferences.
    
    I did think it was funny a week ago when my sec'tary asked me why
    I was reading notes on company time...  She was shocked to find
    out that I did - how else would I keep in touch with
    MAXCIM/BARCODE/SECURITY type stuff???
    
    Gale

      I spend more time in technical notesfiles than personal ones. I
      would die without them, especially as I'm usually running field
      test software of everything. They are the life blood of this
      company anymore. I make technical contacts and am part of the
      technical community that wouldn't even know I exist excpet for
      notes. I'm in the boonies of Colorado, not the mecca of Nasuha.

      As for when I note personally: As someone who spends more than a
      few of my evenings and weekends working on my cluster and my
      products I feel no guilt if I note during the day. As I said to a
      secretary who complained once that I left too early, "where were
      you last night at 2am when I was working on a sick system?" Many
      of us work well past the 40 hour week and we don't get paid
      overtime. I think about my job at work and at home and I think
      about my personal life at work and at home.

      MY personal opinion about how to up our productivity - stop having
      so damned many project people who never actually produce anything
      but paper. liesl

    re:.14
    
    I think that people are getting on your case about this not
    *necessarily* because they disagree with what you're saying, but
    they see some inherent hypocrisy in place. Consider this: you've
    just written 3 notes *in this one topic* *in this one notesfile*
    in less than 4 hours, and each one was during work hours. Does
    this tell you something?
    
    Are people rationalizing their noting? Yes, probably some are,
    whether they think they are or not. Some people are not, though.
    In my previous group, my job was essentially just being on hand
    in case of emergencies. If I wasn't noting, I'd be reading a book
    or playing solitaire. In my current group, I'm a lot busier, and
    my noting, in general, has cut way down. I've dropped a number of
    conferences from my notebook because I don't have the time for
    them, and even in the ones I still read, I'm writing less, and
    even reading less, simply because I don't have the time to get
    involved in any long arguments (for example, when I come in at
    night and see that there are 40 unread replies in the KKK/AA
    discussion, I just skip over them because I don't feel I'm going
    to get enough out of the time I'd need to invest in reading them.
    
    Yes, I confess that there are times when soething comes up and I'll
    put it off for a minute or two because I'm in the middle of a note.
    And there are times when I need to work on a status report, and
    end up noting instead. So, in cases like that, I just stay late
    to work on the report. Of course, this happens only when the report
    is not "time critical", i.e. has to be done by the time the day
    shift comes in. To rationalize again, I'm probably impacting network
    resources less by noting during the night and doing the report
    stuff in the morning. Either way, DEC gets the work out of me that
    they pay for. And, incidentally, I've interrupted my writing of
    this very note three times in order to respond to job issues. I
    don't think my priorities skewed (well, not much, anyways :-)).
    
    As for noting from home: I have a DEC-supplied terminal at home
    that I use for both business and personal sessions. Calling
    Maynard from Littleton is *not* a local call. I don't charge DEC
    one red cent even when the call is business-related, mostly because
    when it is, I'm usually on for only a short period of time, and
    not all that often.
    
    As for noting as stress relief, this is not as much rationalization
    as one might think. There are likely to be any number of people
    who, if they didn't have notes to relieve stress, might end up
    spending time (and working hours at that) with EAP, or taking an
    occasional "mental health" day.
    
    There is a value to noting above and beyond the obvious recreational
    aspects. That it helps get a lot of people in tune with DEC as a
    *large* corporation is not a rationalization. That it helps people
    learn more about the systems they work with is not rationalization
    -- even aside from work-related conferences, a lot of people have
    undoubtedly learned a *lot* about networking because of Notes that
    they wouldn't otherwise know. I'm sure that there are quite a few
    folks who've ended up in networking-related career paths simply
    because they became interested in the concept simply by noting.
    Others have undoubtedly increased their own positions in the company,
    as well as their value to the company simply through the contacts
    that they've made via Notes.
    
    Notes is no different than any other recreational activity that
    is supported by the corporation. I'd be willing to lay odds that
    less productivity is lost due to noting than to employees making
    doctor's appointments during work hours.
    
    --- jerry

    Ohhhhh you got me started so this might be a long note.
    DEC could very easily be the least productive computer company but
    it is also the most dynamic in the buisness. DEC since it started
    has done things its own way. There is nothing else in the buisness
    like notes even the unix networks are really only billboards that
    have no connection to individual companys. 
    
    This reaction to notes that it cuts down productivty is the reaction
    of the beancounters. As long as KO is around we are going to be
    safe from these guys. But when KO has sent out his last memo look
    out! You know those people who wander around the halls carrying
    a clipboard with a confused look on their face...well we'll be
    working for (or should it be with) them. I worked for XEROX in an
    earlier life and the beancounters ran the place and they watched
    everything we did and ruined the company. I think DEC does things
    just about right. We are very choosy about hiring good people and
    make them accountable for there work. The beancounters want complete
    control over everything and they think they can tell you how to
    do things better. 
    
    I don't think this is a productivty vs noting question I think its
    a question of weather DEC can continue to be as open, agressive
    and dynamic as it ha been in the past in the future. What makes
    the company this way? Notes are one of them. To be productive in
    the buisness nowadays we need to have all the information possiable
    and the widest possiable network.
    
    One last example of a wrong direction was Kennedy Tape DrivesC 
    Company. They got bought out by a outfit who cut their manufacturing
    employees by 1/3. They also killed all R+D. They saved huge amounts
    of money and have distroyed the future of the company
    
    
    r .18 The secratary who grills me in the morning about start time
    always gets my lecture about the dead system that I was at last night
    until whenever and that is why I'm in late this morning, that usually
    solves the question. 
     

    Sorry about rambling
    
    Fred Mudgett

    re .17 Gale, I hope your secretary has "Reading 'DEC_SECRETARY'"
    on *her* time management schedule.
    
    Dana   ;-)

I'm way behind on this note...

But I was thinking this weekend: has anyone had to work with someone they
formed a distinctly negative impression of via notes? That's my biggest concern
when the topics get tough. You interviewed with their group, they interviewed
with your group, you had to work together in a meeting in a meeting, you were
already in the same group, etc.

I'll be glad to post anonymously, or read.
	Mez

    
    	I'm suprised that we're so ready to label notes as merely a 
    "recreational activity"...
    
    	Granted, it may be seen that way by the "straight and narrow"
    and the "beancounters" - who's only conceptual context is that of
    the bottom line...
    
    	However, I do concurr with the opinion that once "Ken" make his 
    choice to retire, the "acedemic" flavor of the style with which this 
    company is run will likely go with him.
    
    	That's too bad. Because there's more to a company than just
    it's "capitol gains performance" or whatever. I know, I know, the
    concept is hard for some to hold - might even sound like "communism"!
    But, the fact remains that a work environment contributes directly 
    to the _quality_of_life_ for it's employees.
    
    	Over a hundred years ago, it was the "same issue"...I quote
    point 7 from an 1852 notice to employees from a Burnley cotton mill 
    office:
    
    	"The owners recognise the generosity of the new Labour Laws,
    but will expect a great rise in output of work to compensate for
    these near utopian conditions"
    
    	Obviously, the "owners" really didnt give a flyin' you_know_
    what about the environment within which the workers had to labor,
    and it's quite obvious that this statement reflects a certain peeve
    they held toward the "generous new Labor Laws"...
    
    	Has not our conscious attitude toward this risen above that of 
    100 years ago? Or are we still trotting along with our blinders on,
    blind to perhaps legitimate needs of those in the modern work 
    environment?

    	I mean, this *is* 1989. - Yeah, that's a *nine* there, in the 
    "hundreds" place. There's more to life than what happens on Wall Street. 
    I'm *sure* there are those whom you'd have a very hard time explaining 
    that too. It's something that I think "Ken" well understands...
    
    	I'd say that the *best* companies are the one's that offer the
    best work/life environment possible for it's employees. A happy employee
    is a productive employee - certainly far more so than one who may be
    distraught and miserable. If "notes" happens to effect one's demeanor 
    at times, in a positive way, then our _having_ notes is actually 
    contributing to the productivity of the *whole* - something the 
    "individual measure" mind-set cannot account for. Simply put.
    
    	If I were to help someone else toward their serenity, through my 
    consideration of an issue that was troubling them enough to interfere 
    with their work, then I *have* contributed to the productivity of this 
    company. While it may not be "reportable" on my time card (i.e. cant be 
    measured) it's *still* a contribution. It's just indirect. I used "mail"
    or "notes" - both company owned facilities to do this? So what! Again, 
    it only bothers those who are so_concerned with the idea of "measure"...

    	Even if one's demenour is effected in a negative way by a note 
    entry, it still can be considered productive for that to happen. 9
    times out of 10, the note is merely "setting off" something much
    deeper within someone, something that they will eventually have to face
    anyway. It is much more productive for that kind of thing to happen 
    "here" than it would be for that to happen at a meeting, or on a service
    call, or on the factory floor, or in front of customers. IMHO.
	
    	Joe Jas                                 
    
    	

    I have found that I read the notesfile when I'm lacking something
    in my job....excitement, challenge etc.  Killing time = Notesfile.
    I know there are a lot of DEC related notes available...so the prior
    phrase doesn't necessarily apply to all notesfiles.  
    
    When I'm real busy in my job, excited about my job, challenged in
    my job...I don't have the time or interest to peruse the notesfiles.
    
    Yes, we do need productive people in this company.  What company
    would NOT want productive people?  But why are people unproductive?
    Is it because they are unhappy in their job?  Are they unchallenged?
    Are they wasting their true skills/talents in their job?
    
    I would like to see the Corporation do an employee survey of some sort 
    asking employees questions like:
    
    o  Are you currently satisfied in your job?
    o  Do you feel your talents/skills are being used to the fullest? 
    o  If given the opportunity, would you participate in a Corporate
       sponsored program to analyze your talents/skills/desires/goals?
    o  Would you be interested in participating in a Corp. sponsored
       program which would train you in the area where your skills could
       be used in preparation of a different job?       
    o  etc. etc. etc.
                                                        
    I know that there are Employee Development seminars such as
    Self Assessment etc. which involves using the Myers-Briggs
    questionnaire.  It is very useful in helping one analyze their skills
    etc. and attempts to help the individual find the direction they
    must go.  But what about AFTER you've taken this assessment of
    yourself?  What is your next step?  Are there Corp. sponsored courses
    that would train you in preparation for another job within DEC?
    
    There are definitely a lot of people in this Company who are wasting
    away in their current jobs.  But I feel that this would be less
    prevalent if people were placed in a job that would enhance their
    talents and not suffocate them.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Donna
         
    Donna
    
    

    
        I limit my 'heavy noting' to lunch or before/after hours,
        but I usually stay logged in to NOTES for most of the day
        to 'monitor' conferences (especially Heavy_Metal, which I
        co-moderate).
    
        If I see a note that I'd like to reply to, but know that my
        reply will be long-winded, I'll either EXTract it and then
        reply to it in an EDIT file or add a marker to it to find
        it easier later.
    
        And when I'm noting on company time, it's when I'm doing
        REAL work ... wiring or testing ... and I read the notes
        in between parts cooling down/heating up or just reach over
        and hit NEXT UNSEEN between soldering resistors.
    
                                                       Shawn L.

    Re .24, Joe, I completely agree with you.  That's what I *meant*
    to say, only I was too angry when I wrote my reply to take the time
    to be as articulate!
    
    I also agree with .25.  That would be a good idea.  Too bad it doesn't
    happen.
    
    Lorna
    

    I worry whether DEC can work smarter, not harder.  For example,
    one basic tenant of the DEC Culture is that we allow products to
    compete.  Traditionally, this has reinforced independence.  If my
    product within DEC is better than yours, the market place will show
    it.
    
    Perhaps this attitude is getting obsolete.  Maybe the industry
    has gotten mature enough that we ought to try to shape the marketplace
    with single products.  Notice that both VAX/VMS and Apple MacIntosh
    were single shaping products.
    
    Application software lends itself to consolidated virtual-like
    environments just like VMS.  This, to me, is working smarter, not
    harder.
    
    Dave - who hasn't logged into this file yet

    re: .30 
    
    Why should it be an either/or question, Eagles?  Is it possible
    that sometimes it can be a form of working smarter, other times
    a form of relaxation, other times a way of propagating DEC 
    "culture" (whatever that may be), and still others a kind of
    addiction?
    
    I like a good deal of what Jerry said (.19) for he touched
    on a lot of the different aspects of noting.  I've found 
    that beyond the essential alive/dead question, little in
    this life reduces to a binary.  It also strikes me that, while
    we're speaking in terms of "notes", we're really talking about
    "noters" - the carpenter, not the tool, and all that.
    
    Steve
    

re: .32:
    Proposition:  "Participation in =womannotes= is Good for Digital!"

Agreed.

Also, if I spent twice as much time at "real work" as I do now, I'd
get half as much done.

Martin_with_a_compilation_chugging_away_on_the_other_computer_on_my_desk

    re: the now missing .30 (and possibly .32)
    
    Eagle (I'm assuming, due to Steve's reply, that you wrote .30),
    if you were replying to my .19 in your .30, you'll have to try
    again. I've been on vacation since Thursday morning, and didn't
    read your note before you deleted it. The hazards of deleting one's
    own notes after an arbitrary period of time.
    
    --- jerry

                                < DISCLAIMER >

  < This reply has been re-entered.  Moderator received a complaint
    that my reply was a personal attack.  I have rephrased my reply with
    the help of the concerned moderator. This should get the point across
    more easily since I will not limit myself to use meager space
    available in a reply title. > 


>< Note 508.35 by AERIE::THOMPSON "tryin' real hard to adjust..." >
>                   -< Notes_USE_Can_Easily_Become_ABUSE... >-
    
    If someone wanted to figure it out who abuses notes, and one did not
    want to be called on the carpet for doing so, one could always delete
    one's notes after a short period of time.
    
    By the divine authority vested in me,
    - Vikas

    re: .0
    
    This argument and logic has been around several times before. At one
    point (mayhaps someone can define the date better) within the past rwo
    years, DEC as a Corporation, in response to such an opinion, made a
    conscience decision to permit the non-Business notes to remain on the
    systems. 
    
    Part of the reason is that notes are not just part of the DEC Culture,
    but they, by their nature, are helping the DEC Business and Social
    fabric to be better served.
    
    For example: By what method is superior do people in the US get
    an appreciation for how the avereage Englishman, Scotsman, or Irishman
    view the situation in Northern Ireland?
    
    Is  there a better method for Aussies to get the opinions of how
    Americans (USA type) view the hostage situation in Iran ?
    
    Personally, both for social and business, notes a have enabled me
    to understand otehr DECcies better  across many issues,and to sensitize
    my own feelings to the social conditions across many lifestyels
    both parrallel and divergent from my own; providing a  level of
    anonymity on sensitive and often delicate issues.
    
    Part of this has contributed to my personal success at Digital,
    and has helped me to garner resources at difficult times.
    
    Electronic friendships are as concrete and strong as those of a
    physical proximity, in the sense of a "Network of Friends".
    
    There are people (we all know them) who will cheer  the day that
    non-business notes go away. True,as others have noted, there are those
    who more/less live in the Cafeteria. They come to work at 8:30, get
    breakfdast in the cafeteria, and return to their desk to eat and read
    the News. 
    
    Some people with Standalone CPUs play illegal games, or write various
    messages, jokes, humour, for forwarding around the world. People colect
    for charities, sell cookies, explpoit peeers for donations to outside
    interests and a host of other greivenaces. 
    
    True, prior to coming to DEC, there was nothing similiar to Notes. And
    likewise True, all those comapnies went Chapter 11 or were taken over
    into a conglomerate. Some mentions of PRIME was made. AS was WANG.
    Check out the recent news on both, in regards to layoffs, cutbacks, and
    loss of revenues. 

    Out of the non-DEC notes ahve come many support files for Alchoholics,
    Woman, Rape Victims, DEC-help Wanted ads, Self Help, Parental Guidance,
    Bible Topics,Arms Race, Telephony, etc. 
    
    DEC is diverse,and many people would like a better understanding on how
    the "other half" lives. 
    
    Notes provides that interface. It becomes a management task to contol
    how employees use their time to the companys' benefit,and a matter
    of personal ethics for each person to control their discretionary
    time; whether its NOtes, the Cafeteria, Coming in Late, GOIng home
    early, working out at the fitness center, taking trivial seminars
    for non-Business goals, using the corporate aircraft for personal
    use, etc ...
    
    Bob Early