Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I think Liz Augustine was the first to propose this one.

    I had a really good experience at the local bookstore the other
    day.  I found a copy of Gayle Oleankava's book _Go For It!_ on the
    remainder table (not surprising as it was a best seller in 1979). 
    
    Gayle, for those of you who aren't familiar with her, is a
    Canadian athlete who has been outstanding in a number of sports;
    she was once one of the top three in women's marathoning and has
    won bodybuilding contests.  She's always been one of my heros. The
    cover shows a full color picture of Gayle running along the beach
    with her blonde hair flowing and her muscles rippling. Talk about
    female power! 
    
    Anyway, I took it to the counter to the pimply 17-year-old boy
    trying to stay awake beside the cash register.  He picked the book
    up, looked at the cover picture with interest, and showed it to
    the other cashier.  "Look at that," he said warmly. "Isn't she
    beautiful?"  (And no, he was not being sarcastic.)
    
    I left feeling a lot better about the future of the world.
    
    --bonnie 

I'm not sure if this belongs in this or the previous note...



CHURCH GROUP PLANS TO BURN DEVILISH TOYS
[Boston Globe 6/16, from UPI newsfeed]

PACE, Fla. - Church members plan to build a bonfire Friday night to
burn toys and records they believe are inspired by the devil, but an
opposition group promises a bucket brigade.

Leaders of the Pace Assembly of God Church, northeast of Pensacola,
plan to burn rock 'n' roll records, plastic Smurfs, Barbie dolls and
Masters of the Universe toy figures in the bonfire.

A visiting Dallas preacher, Phil Phillips, said Barbie dolls are bad
because they create unreal expectations about beauty.

But a group opposed to the burning said it will form a bucket brigade
to put out the fire, seting up the possibility of conflict between
the groups.

    re .3, I think the burning is bad news and the fact that there are
    people actively opposing it is good news.  I know that the guy said
    that Barbie dolls create unreal expectations but it doesn't offset
    the bad vibes I get from people burning rock'n'roll records.
    
    Lorna
    

smurfs? what could be wrong with a smurf? personally, I'll place my
money on the bucket brigade..

Jenna    

    The smurf show teaches total reliance on a paternal dictator,
    that's what's wrong with them.
    
    Every time papa smurf goes away, the bad boys and girls get
    into trouble, and Papa has to come and bail them out.
    
    UGGGHHHH!
    
    But I wouldn't burn them, either -- this is a free country and
    there is free speech. 
    
    --bonnie

    I just got a catalog of children's toys (I don't know how I end
    up on these lists -- the kitties sure don't appreciate the stuff
    they're selling!). Anyways, they had lots of "traditional" toys
    with surprising pictures. In one scene, they're selling a pretend
    kitchen set, and there's a little boy pulling a cake out of the
    oven. In other scenes, 
    - a girl is wearing a belt with carpenter's tools
    - a girl is bringing flowers to a boy who's playing inside a toy
    - a girl and boy are building with cardboard bricks.
    
    They still don't have pictures of little boys wearing costumes,
    but nonetheless I count this as progress.
    
    Liz    

    My God, yes!  What is this catalog?  I want one, I want one!
    
    --bonnie, who has a son who likes to cook

    re .10:
    
    Please excuse my ignorance: who's Stanley?
                                                   
                  /
                 (  ___
                  ) ///
                 /
    

    Stan Olsen is Ken's brother, and had the honor (?) of wearing badge
    number 3. (Ken's got #1, of course, and there's some sort of story
    about why Stan didn't get #2, but that's long before even *my* time.)
    
    Stan left the company a couple of years ago; I paid little attention
    to the details, I fear, and I don't know what he's doing now.
    
    (Loved the ad, by the way. We've come a long way, and the company
    compares very well with most other employers, but there's still
    room for improvement...)

    -b

I remember Stan leaving, if only because of a big headline in one of
the "yellow technical papers" which read

	"Olsen to leave Digital... story page 7"

Ken, Stan, and Harlan Anderson were the original founders of DEC, and Harlan
was the Vice President, so maybe he was badge #2.  All of them (along with
some [if not all?] of DEC's original set of engineers) worked at the MIT
Computer Laboratory on Whirlwind and then at MIT Lincoln Laboratory.  [Source:
Computer Engineering: A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design; Bell, Mudge,
McNamara; Digital Press, 1978; pp 123, 129.]  Anyway, when a company is that
small, and when you're with it for that long, you find yourself doing lots of
different things, I presume.  I heard a story that Stan issued a memo that
they'd finally made the Mill secure (locking all the random doors, putting in
guard stations, and whatnot), so there would be no more unauthorized removal
of equipment.  This was Friday afternoon.  On Sunday morning, he found a
compelte system up and running on the front porch of his house.  (Probably a
PDP-8/something.)  Okay, enough with the apochryphal stories, I can hear you
say...  Sorry for the digression.

    I am currently taking a class in real estate in which they switch
    teachers about every week.  We have had some real duds and being such a
    twit that I am I noticed that every single teacher used 'Male'
    examples.  "If he wanted to buy this house..." "If his buyer...."
    etc.  
    
    Well last night we had this new professor - He was great but not only
    was he interesting and knowledgeable he kept using "Male" and "Female"
    examples.  His first example was "Say a bright young doctor just out of
    medical school wanted to buy a house but SHE had all of these school
    loans,  what type of mortgage would SHE need?"  I almost fell out
    of my chair - made me realize how little you hear "She" and "Doctor"
    used together.
    
    Well I guess it doesn't take much to thrill me but I thought this
    was so pleasant on the ears, I was thrilled!

re: .-1

Thanx Suzanne. I'm having an awful day, but you reminded me of something.
I almost always use she in my memos and designs when talking about a person.
Sometimes its to balance things out, and sometimes its to try to piss someone
off, but mostly its 'cause I'm still playing with the concept myself.

Well, these two guys and I are trying to hammer down a design alternative
so I can get on with my work. And one of them sends out a rebuttal on the
other, and it used she! He's won my heart :-)!
	Mez

    My parents were up to visit in mid-May, bringing with them my
    2-year-old niece [sans Mama, no less, but that's another story]
    and the four of us went out to lunch at Nickels in Merrimack, NH.
    
    To all intents and purposes, we looked like a _very_ prosperous
    couple in their early sixties and the single mother of a two-year-old.
    
    At the end of the meal, the waitress brought *me* the check.
    
      Ann
    
    [then, of course, my father tossed his VISA over and spoiled the
    moment...]

    When I  was at Yale, there was a hockey team, a basketball team, a
    woman's  hockey team, and a woman's basketball team. They now have
    men's  hockey,  men's  basketball,  woman's  hockey,  and  woman's
    basketball teams.  Even Yale bends slightly with the times.

--David

    There's a comic strip in the B. Globe that I enjoy, Arlo and Janis.
    A & J are young-ish and married and usually do ok. Here's yesterday's
    strip (without illustrations): 
    
    Panel 1:	Arlo watching t.v.
    Panel 2: 	Arlo to Janis: "I just saw this 'Arrid' commerical on tv..."
    Panel 3:	A: "Some guy says a woman who sweats isn't sexy."
    Panel 4:	A: "Wonder how he feels about eating and breathing".

    I have moved (finally) all the sweat/perspiration/glow notes
    to a new note. Sorry to have been so long in my housekeeping
    chores! :-)
    
    Can we return this note to 'There's hope yet topics"
    
    thanks
    
    Bonnie J

    
    I saw a wonderful commercial while I was hanging around wathcing
    the tube this weekend...
    
    A little girl, about 7 or 8 years old, and her father, both wearing
    blue jeans and surrounded by fishing paraphenalia, are standing in a
    stream.  The girl tells her dad just exactly what kind of bait she's
    using and just exactly where she has to cast her line.  Then she
    gets a bite and pulls out a great big trout.  Her father, who has
    yet to get a nibble, says, "Where did you find all that stuff out?"
    She looks at him, smiles, and says, "At the library."
    
    The scene then cuts to a lodge, where the little girl is asleep
    on the floor in a sleeping bag.  Dad is sitting up in *his* sleeping
    bag, reading his daughter's book on trout fishing and looking proudly
    at his sleeping daughter.  The voice-over talks about how important
    it is to for children to read.
    
    I thought this was a *terrific* commercial; it showed a father in
    the primary parental role (no mom in sight) and it showed a little
    girl fishing, traditionally thought of as being "boy stuff" and
    being *successful* at it.  Sure gave me the warm fuzzies...
    
    Rita
    

Has anyone noticed the new Nike tv campaign, showing a not exactly young
woman running up a hill.  Voice says she use to smoke, etc, and started
jogging.  Ended up winning the New York Marathon at age 42 (Priscilla
Welch, in case you're wondering.)

The other ad shows a old geezer (82?) jogging along.  He runs 17 miles
per day.  His friends ask him whether his teeth chatter in the winter.
"Nope, I leave them in the locker."

Martin.

    
    From the Vogon News Service, Tuesday, Sept. 27th.
    
    UK News
    -------
    
    BBC to ban televising of beauty contests after "Miss World" in
    December.

    Re: .24
    
    >-< Why not before? >-
    
    If it's run anything like American television, they've probably
    sold all the advertising time.

    There is a truck commercial (I can't think of which one) which shows
    a woman taking her son to day-care - she appears to be on her way
    to work - and all of a sudden she stops and says something to the
    effect of "let's not go to day-care/work today..." 
    
    The ad ends up with both mother and young son fishing together.
    No father mentioned, no other adult male role model mentioned....
    

        The current issue of PARENTS magazine has an ad for the
    Fischer-Price toy vaccum.  The pictuer shows a little boy and a
    little girl.  The girl is seated in an easy chair reading the Wall
    Street Journal and the boy is playing with the vaccum.
    
    ASP

re: .28
>    	There are some people who would claim, if the ad's roles were
>    reversed, that this is a typical product of the "keep women in the
>    house" mentality.
>    
>    -mike z

    You're right, and I'd be one of them.
    
    Anyway, that's the point -- they *didn't* do the usual, stereotypical,
    thing. They reversed the usual roles to show that boys and girls can do
    what has typically been reserved for the other sex. 
    
    Until there's real equality between the sexes, there's always going to
    be a problem when there's one male and one female in an ad. People will
    either cry "Stereotype!" or "How progressive!". One day, we won't even
    notice...

    					-- hs 

A new Apple Macintosh ad shows a hugely pregnant woman going out to the
car with her co-workers:

"It was a great shower."

"When are you due again?"

"The doctor says the tenth, but somehow I think I'll be early."

"So, who's taking your place on the Gail Harper project?"

"No one."

"So, there goes that piece of business."

"No."

"But, who's going to coordinate Houston and Chicago?"

"Me, I'll be back to work in a week."

"What? I thought you said you're going to take three months off!"

"I am."

"You think you can run a ten million dollar account from the nursery?"

"No, I think I'll do it from the den."

-----

While I it's nice to see women in positions of responsibilty, I'm not sure
whether I completely agree with the supermom attitude that she can take care
of a newborn and a $10 million account at the same time.

Martin.

    Well, Martin, how about if *you* take care of her newborn baby, while
    *she* takes care of the $10M account?? ;-) ;-) ;-)
    
    /Charlotte
    
    I was just thinking last night of how I should enter a note about how
    even I sometimes get tired of playing "superwoman" - and I don't even
    have any kids!  It is tough to have a challenging career, be involved
    in several different sorts of committee and volunteer work, have lots
    of interesting hobbies, and still manage to have food on the table,
    clean clothes for the household to wear, and not live in a pigpen (OK,
    OK, I care more about that than Paul does - my own mother is a very
    meticulous housekeeper, and I never learned to have a high tolerance
    for filth or clutter - anyhow, not cleaning the place aggravates my
    allergies since I am allergy to dust and mold, and I can't find needed
    objects when the clutter gets too bad).  So far, we manage it.  The
    white clothes laundry went into the dryer just before work this
    morning, we will stop at the fish store right before it closes tonight
    to pick up the week's fish (we eat a lot of fish) and a sympathy card
    for a DECcie friend whose mother died yesterday, then go home and bake
    bread, cook and eat dinner, iron, mend, and put away clothes, and
    retrieve a borrowed piece of equipment from a friend's house about half
    an hour's drive from our place (we need the thing tomorrow).  Makes for
    a hectic evening, but it will allow for a more interesting weekend than
    if we spent it doing housework!  Oh, well, my mother never said that
    life would be easy...
    
    It's somewhat hectic, but it beats spending my whole life doing
    *nothing but housework* - YAWN!!  Wouldn't it be nice to be $wealthy$ and
    have live-in help to do all the dull-but-necessary stuff...?

	Having been a kid of many years experience, I can safely
	say that taking care of a a kid is a lot of work. It is very
	possible that some, perhaps many people, whether men or women,
	are not capable	of coping with a kid and a job at the same time.
	I highly suspect I couldn't. But it is not implausible to believe
	that there are many people can do both. And if this particular 
	woman, can, had she not chosen to devote a portion of her energy 
	to raising a child, perhaps instead of managing a ten million 
	dollar account, she might be running the whole company.


						Tom_K

Tangent alert: TMJ issues

  Clenching and grinding your teeth is a serious issue.  Having coped with it
  for the last 15 years (can you say *stress*?), I urge anyone who is
  susceptible to it to consult their doctor and/or dentist.
  
  So what are the symptoms?  For me it was severe ear pain.  Turns out the
  nerve from jaw clenching ends in the ear.  Luckily this isn't as common for
  me as it was in high school; its the worst ear ache you've ever had and
  lasts for days/weeks.
  
  Another symptom is grinding your teeth.  I've ground mine so severely the
  dentist is worried that they may not hold up for a life time.  Where most
  people have points on their teeth for chewing tough food, I have smooth
  places.  Luckily it hasn't gotten any worse in the last six years.  I have
  a dentist who has fitted me with a mouth guard for when I sleep.  (Now
  before you say, 'how's the football game?', read on.)  Its a small guard
  that fits the upper teeth so any grinding grinds plastic away not teeth.
  Turns out I very rarely grind my teeth any more because the guard has
  taught me how to sleep without clenching the jaw.

  So folks, relax, as they say.  Stress can be conquered, and once done, you
  have the techniques for life.

    11/27/88 "60 Minutes" - they had a very heart warming story of a
    female coach for a male basketball team.  Seems she has turned the
    team around in basketball and academics.  She seems to be a very
    caring person, she cares about the players as a team and as
    individuals.  Some players say she kept them in school by giving
    them something that motivates them.  One player actually said that
    if it weren't for her he would probably be out on the streets right
    now getting into trouble.  Now he's doing better academically and
    wants to go to college.
    
    A local high school sports reporter was asked if she was a well liked
    coach. He replied that many of her fellow male coaches are jealous
    "'cuz she kicked their butts!" 
    
    Well they won the semi-finals for the city championship for the first
    time in the schools history. They lost in the finals - but they are
    shooting for it again this year. 
                                     
    When one of the players was asked if their coach was like a mother,
    he replied "No, she's like a sister and a friend."                
    
    It was a great story.
    
    Suzanne

    RE: .34
    
    Yes TMJ is very serious, ask me I know....Leslie you sure were lucky
    to escape with only a mouth guard.....I however wasn't, I mean it
    is not all bad but I can't wait til it is over.....I am in the 9th
    month of braces with a possible 21 months left, and a year and a
    half ago I underwent surgery to widen the upper jaw to help balance
    the size of my mouth.  Now we are just closing up any spaces between
    the teeth that occured from surgery.
    
    I urge anyone who has any symptoms such as tightness, ear aches,
    stiff necks.....just have your dentist check it out after 4 years
    of off and on pain it feels great to wake up without headaches,
    neckaches or any other symptom of TMJ.....
    
    
    
    TammyG

    [in California radio advertising]
    [jazz bass guitar and keyboard background, syncopated driving beat]
    
    telephone rings...
    
    [Jenny]      Susan Kim's Office...            
    
    [Susan Kim]  Jenny, I'm still in San Diego.  Could you check my
                 schedule and see what the week looks like?
    
    [Jenny]      Well, Tuesday you're in Los Angeles, Wednesday in
                 Sacramento, then back to Orange County on Thursday...
    
    [voiceover]  When you're doing business in California, its good
                 to know that American Express and Alaska Airlines do
                 business *all* *over* California.  [sales pitch continues]
    
    [Jenny]      Then next week you start out in Fresno, then ...[fades]
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Perfectly matter-of-fact presentation of a business executive working
    with her secretary, doing the modern flight routine...
    
    DougO

I dunno, this probably belongs in the Sexism note, ... but Barnes and Noble
(remainder booksellers) has an ad in today's Globe for their catalog.
In big letters, it trumpets "An Illustrated History of Bordellos" (or
somesuch: I forgot the real title), which is a kind of illustrated
tour of backroom New Orleans (courtesans who become princesses; princesses
who become courtesans, that sort of stuff).

Another book they saw fit to mention in their ad is Suzanne Hayden Elgin's
"The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-defense", which has been mentioned favorably
several times in this notesfile.

So, hold your noses and pick up a copy of their catalog.

Martin.

    
    When I got home this morning there I became entranced with
    a captivating movie on HBO.  It was about am attractive 
    young woman (approx. 15 or 16 years old) whos moved with
    her sister and mother to a new home in Canada.  The town
    did not have much to offer in after-school  activities 
    except sports.  Since she had played hockey for the women's
    team at her old school she decided to try out for the team
    albeit it was a men's team.  She made the team (and of course
    the team went on to take the league trophy).  None of the roles
    were stereotypical and though the plot was slightly predictable
    the production was nicely done.
    
    Sorry I didn't catch the name of it.  Maybe some co-noters have
    seen it and can add some info.
    
    Luis

    The film is called "Hockey Night." I caught it a few months back.
    
    The only actor I can remember was Rick Moranis as the coach who
    stood up for her. 

    The name of the movie is "Hockey Night".
    
    It was a pretty realistic movie, with a couple exceptions.
    
    I wished they hadn't won it all, and they would not have skated
    off "protesting" the game like they did at the end.
    
    But overall it was a good story.
    
    mike

    I saw a great ad in last week in Business Week, it really put a smile
    on my face and I wanted to share it here. 
    
    I believe it was for a brandy, A nice looking woman took up most
    of the page, she was in black & white, the glass of brandy was in
    color. The words were on the top also in b&w "I love museums. I've
    been to Cooperstown twice". If you don't know what Cooperstown is
    then the ad wasn't aimed at you... 

    Gail

    From a Digital internal publication, "The Vector" Volume 4, Number
    3, page 4:
    
    	"... It's like tapping into the energy generated by the USA
    	women's four by one-hundred relay team at Seoul.  Once it
    	gets started it moves on its own power and gains momentum
    	and speed with each tick of the clock."
    
    						Ann B.

re: .44:

	This may be a dumb question, but wouldn't that same paragraph,
    minus "women's" be less sexist?

I think the men only took a silver medal.

M.

    
    I'd like to think of it as a form of affirmative action. We've been
    so inundated with images of male athletes that if the word "women"
    weren't there, most people would probably visualize a man's team.
    This balances out people's awareness, much the way aa is supposed
    to balance out opportunities (I slipped in "supposed to", not because
    I don't believe it does, but to hopefully avoid a rathole).
    
    Roberta

    Re: .44
    
    >This may be a dumb question, but wouldn't that same paragraph,
    >minus "women's" be less sexist?
    
    If you mean "sexist" in terms of "distinguishing between men and
    women," then yes.  If you mean "sexist" in terms of "derogating
    members of one gender," then no.  It sounds like the article was
    making reference to a specific event, in which case "women's" is
    a necessary qualifier.

    	RE:  .48
    
    	> If the word "women's" was replaced with "men's", would
    	> that be sexist?
    
    	The author of the quote was referring to a specific team
    	in a specific event.  In a case like that, why would it
    	be sexist whether the team mentioned had been "men's" or
    	"women's"?
    
    	What is your point, Mike Z.?
    

    Vignette from last night's thirtysomething...

    Hope rushes to hospital to visit ailing friend, asks duty nurse for
    Dr. xxx. Nurse points down hall where man and woman are talking.
    Hope approaches them, looks up at (taller) man, saying "Dr. xxx?".
    Woman turns around, says "Yes?". (Hope looks slightly abashed.)

    Re: .48
    
    If the word "women's" was replaced with "men's," my evaluation in
    .47 would be unchanged.  If the author didn't even bother to consider
    women atheletes while searching for a metaphor, *that* would be
    sexist (unconscious, probably, but still sexist).  But the words
    cannot reflect something like that.

    Mike,
    
    By answering my question, you answered your own.
    
    I could take you to task for pre-judging the people in this file
    with your comment, "But I do think that if "women's" were replaced
    with "men's" that some people here might call that sexist." but
    I won't.
    
    Instead, I'll explain to you why I would indeed consider it sexism:
    
    Here we have two relay teams, one composed of women, and one
    composed of men.  One team won the gold medal; one team won the
    silver medal.  If a metaphor, which is clearly supposed to refer
    to superiority over every other entrant in the field, used the
    team that did NOT display this superiority (by winning the gold
    medal), then I would look askance at that metaphor.  If I then found
    that it referred to the team which displayed the societally-preferred
    gender, then I would call it sexist.
    
    Do you understand?
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S. in advance to everyone:  Please do not refer to a silver medal
    winner as "second-rate", okay?

    re .55
    
    OK the ellipsis doesn't refer to a woman, women, or the activities
    of same: therefore my impression is that in its original context
    the remark was de facto sexist.
    
    /. Ian .\

    Ian,
    
    Then am I correct in assuming that you believe the statement was
    nationalistic because it referred to the "USA" team?  And that
    it was racist because it referred to the location "Seoul"?  And
    that it was numerist because it referred to the four by one hundred
    team?
    
    Or is it just being accurate and you object to that?
    
    Or are you using the term "sexist" when you should be using the term
    "gender-specific"?
    
    						Ann B.

    
    I don't understand the problem here. It has already been explained
    that the specific team referred to, the USA Woman's team, won a
    gold medal and the men's team did not. There is no sexism here.
    What is your problem?
    
    Roberta

The USA Women's team won Gold in the 4x100 relay and Sliver in the 4x400.
The USA Men's team won gold in the 4x400 relay, but did not qualify for
the finals in the 4x100 because of an improper pass.

M.

At the risk of explaining the obvious, my estimation of the sexist question here
hinges on the perception that if the men's relay team had been mentioned (and 
had been the team that won the 4X100 relay) and the word "men's" was used it
would be considered sexist by a significant portion of the community.

 The doctah

    Re: .67
    
    What that implies, then, is that some men believe that some (perhaps
    a significant number of ) women have "sexist" as a default value
    for "men."  Given the number of women in the world today, I have
    no doubt that some of them automatically consider men sexist.  I'm
    not sure how large the number is, though, or how well it applies
    here.  (Since I missed the entire AA argument -- praise be -- I'm
    not sure how relations between the genders are going these days.)

    Before I reply, I'm going to explain part of my Philosophy of Life:
    
    	1. Do not attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.
    	2. Do not attribute to stupidity what can be attributed to ignorance.
    	3. Do not attribute to ignorance what can be attributed to a
    	moment of inattention.
    
    Thus, when I tell someone, "You just weren't paying attention.",
    I am not being condemnitory; I am being reassuring.  It means I
    hold that person to be neither ignorant, stupid, nor malicious.
    
    Now, if the original metaphor had been of an appropriate men's team,
    I probably would not have paid any attention to it -- beyond what
    I give for any good metaphor (which is a lot, I confess).  If my
    attention were drawn to it by someone asking, "Whadaya thinka this?",
    I'd say it was a good metaphor.  Someone would have to ask me about
    it in the context of sexism before I would think about the use of
    "men's".  (So I'm dense.)  And then I'd shrug, and say "It's
    business as usual."
    
    This is ambiguous.  It is meant to be.  It could either mean that
    I felt "men's" had a fifty per cent chance of turning up, and it
    had, and so what.  Or it could mean that the male writer had come
    up with a male image because that's all he could see.  Ya tosses
    yer coin and ya takes yer chances.
    
    That a male writer could only see a male image (That this could happen
    is only an hypothesis, mind.) is the *result* of sexism.  I do not
    see it as sexism per se.  (See rules 3 through 1 above.)  So if
    I were asked, "Is this sexism?", I'd answer "No."

    Any other opinions lying around out there?
    
    							Ann B.

    re .64
    
    Since you raise the point, I don't consider it racist by referring
    to a place.
    
    Nor do I see it as right wing political (Nationalist) in nature.
    
    However the reference to an American achievement or team may very
    well be a tad jingoistic, it would certainly be completely
    inappropriate if the subject of the ellipsis were not an American 
    achievement.
    
    And of course the original meaning of 'chauvinism' was an irrational
    and overbearing form of patriotism, of the type displayed by sports
    commentators of every nationality when one of their sports teams
    or competitors happen to do well.                           
    
    A better analogy would have been: "< xxx > was like a well disciplined
    4x100m relay team..." No reference to a particular team is needed:
    we all know what is involved in a successful relay team of either
    sex, and any nationality.
    
    The above may seem petty, but the quote came from a piece of internal
    literature. I know these aren't intended for customers, but we all
    know that customers frequently acquire them. I used to have frequent 
    problems when customers and prospects would complain bitterly about 
    the use of American English in technical documentation ("don't you
    make this in English?"). Jingoistic references like the one under 
    discussion in sales literature could frequently produce a definite icy 
    feeling in the room after they saw it. We are after all a
    MULTINATIONAL company, operating right around the globe, and it is
    time that we started to expunge such unthinking chauvinism from 
    literature we produce.
    
    No, when I read the quote, I interpreted the reference to a women's
    team as sexist: positively sexist, in that I guessed that the author
    was a woman. I also read it as jingoistic: I guessed that the author
    was an American. Finally I read it as destructive of the international
    integrity of our company as it clearly brands one of our achievements
    as a singularly American one.
    
    /. Ian .\
    
    

>    team as sexist: positively sexist, in that I guessed that the author
>    was a woman. 

Gosh, I was hoping it was a man! 
	Mez

    
    I have no idea whether the author or the article quoted was a woman
    or a man, an American or a Bantu.
    
    However people tend to choose metaphors and similes from topics
    close to their own experience. I *guessed* that choosing a parallel
    with an American women's athletics team the author was probably
    an American woman who had recently been watching the Olympics. I
    felt an American man would be more likely to compare it to the US
    4x400m men's relay team, and a foreigner would be unlikely to use
    a US team at all...
    
    Whether that is true or not, I am sure it isn't good journalism
    to use constructions that leave the audience wondering about the
    author, rather than the subject.
    
    As a jingoistic reference it is also a bad metaphor from another
    point of view: I didn't know that the US relay team had won that
    event, had I been asked I'd have guessed that they got the bronze
    (after USSR and East Germany). It isn't an immediately obvious example
    of premiership, and leaving out the country reference would have
    made it a more obvious one.
    
    /. Ian .\

    How very interesting.
    
    The author was Gene Somethingorother.  This is a man's name, so
    Mez's hope is founded and Ian's assumption is false.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  I hope that any customer of ours who does a no-no like read
    internal publications will have more sense than to complain about
    an analogy buried on page 4.

    I just can't believe this discussion.....anyone of any gender
    or nationality who saw that race would have seen the
    incredible power and grace in those 4 runners.  This wasn't
    just any victory.  To reduce the metaphor to merely a relay race
    destroys it.
    bob

re: .70
    Any other opinions lying around out there?

Well, how about "let's use young sexy female bodies to push our product."

Ian's point about jingoism is well taken, and should be noted by anyone
writing (documentation/handouts/advertising) that are intended for
general consumption.  "Pride in our Olympic Team" is all well and good,
except when you're trying to convince a customer to buy Dec instead
of Nokia/Bull/ICI/Siemens/Norsk (etc.).

Martin.

    This morning, the radio station had one of those ads for 
    technical schools - a man's voice saying "I was getting tired
    of a nowhere job. I didn't like feeling lousy about my work,
    embarrassed by my job. So I decided on a new career as a..."
    
    I expected a spiel for Hartford School of Welding. Surprise !
    His next word was
    Nurse !
    
    They got me again :-)

    	RE:  .79
    
    	> I'd be surprised to find a strictly pro-male quote in
    	> this, the "maybe there's hope yet" topic.  However, I'd
    	> expect to find some strictly pro-female quote touted as
    	> non-sexist (not in the gray area [between sexist and non-
    	> sexist].)
    
    	> It strikes me as odd.
    
    	Mike Z., I'm not sure what your confusion is about, but I'll
    	see if I can help.
    
    	In our culture, metaphors used to describe a high measure of 
    	excellence are almost always associated with images involving 
    	males (as if words like "excellence" and "achievement" are best 
    	described, to their fullest extent, with the help of examples of 
    	achievements that have been accomplished by men.)
    
    	When women's attributes are used (as examples of excellence
    	in some form,) the ones chosen the most often involve "women
    	as art" (i.e., what some women look like.)
    
    	It is unusual to see excellence described in terms of an
    	athletic achievement by a women's team -- so unusual and so
    	powerful, in fact, that Ann's example of a quote of this sort 
    	(in .43) is still being challenged almost 40 replies later.

OK Mike. I saw this the other day, and thought of posting it here, but didn't
think it was quite enough. I don't know how sincere I come across in notes, so
I don't know if you'll believe that, but I work on an A1 operating system
project, so the government trusts me :-).

Commercial for dish-washing detergent, featuring 2 men. It was very like the
Adam cartoon. One man washing dishes and seeing nothing wrong with it, the
other doing male-type jokes about being a wimp. Just lately I had begun to
dispair about dish washing and detergent commercials; they're all female
mothers. So I was really pleased to see that, though I thought that the
joker-friend lessened the impact.
	Mez

    
    
Note 14.79 >
    
    >I'd be surprised to find a strictly pro-male quote in this, the
    >"maybe there's hope yet" topic.  However, I'd expect to find some
    >strictly pro-female quotes touted as non-sexist (not in the gray
    >area).
    
    I don't see anything sexist about being "pro-male" or "pro-female".
    Personally I wouldn't want to see either become extinct.
    
    Roberta
    
    
    

    Re: .82
    
    >Every reply by a male is to some extent an intrusion
    
    So how does it feel, being an intruder?
    
    >Eagles_See_Male_Presence_Here_As_Massively_Counter-Productive...
    
    Is it just me, or is this terribly ironic?

Re:  .88 (Eagles)

>   ... a bunch of grade-school-mentality noter-dweebs or ... just too
>   dense to be considered childish ...

People:  must we stoop to name calling here?

Can we stick to examples of non-sexist stuff, and discuss other noters and
their mentalities somewhere else?  Please?

					--Q

(I found it very tough not to snap at the last note here...)

                          <** Moderator Response **>

    I wholeheartedly agree with Q.
    
    						=maggie

    
    Q, 
    I don't think you're being entirely fair. I think Eagles was making
    a point (not in .89 but in earlier notes) about men in this
    note (Mike Z et al.) being feminist-baiting. Some people did not
    want to even discuss this point to determine if it had validity
    or not. 
    
    I think the problem is that Eagles notes are sometimes rather cryptic
    and thus his points get lost in his wisecracks.
    
    Eagles, can you please  be a little clearer? I agree with what you're
    saying, but not how you say it.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Roberta
    
                                                

    May I second Dick's request that we avoid name calling.
    
    thanks
    
    Bonnie J
    comod

                          <** Moderator Request **>
    
    So that we don't have to lock this topic while it's being cleaned,
    would everyone please take their processing stuff to the processing
    string, beginning now?   Thank you.
    
    						=maggie

    My husband and I are moving next week and one of my jobs was to
    call and arrange the moving company. I called and told them we were
    moving, etc. Yesterday, I got a confirmation letter (addressed to
    me) and they included a bunch of adress lables. The lables had 
    "Denise Ryan 18 Cross St"....etc printed on them. No mention of my 
    husband, and they didn't even put Mr and Mrs Ryan, (I *hate* being
    called Mrs. Ryan, and they didn't even know that !)
    
    (BTW, it was Mike's idea to post this note. After hearing so many
    horror stories in the Sexism... note, we were expecting the worse
    of the whole house-buying scene. Not one bad experience, except
    the bank wanting to put the house in Mike's name "in case we get
    sued, they can't take the house" [huh?] We didn't.)
    
    Dee

    The following is just a sample; I've gotten a lot of this style
    of announcement:
    
    "<a few levels of forwarding removed>

    From:  <Whomever>	29-MAR-1989 12:10
    To:	@<our>_EXTENDED_STAFF.DIS
    Subj:  ANNOUNCEMENT

    I am pleased to announce an addition to the Personnel Organization.
    <Nickname Lastname> will join the <our> Personnel Staff on Monday,
    April 3rd.  <Nickname> will be supporting the <class> Engineering
    Group and assuming other responsibilities in the ensuing weeks.

    <discussion of current Personnel responsibilities removed>

    I look to the <our> Personnel Consultants to provide your organizations
    with responsibe service.
    
    Best regards,

    <Name>"
    
    What gender is the new person?  I don't know.  I've found a whole
    bunch of these memos written so that the new person is always referred
    to by name (and the name is always the gender-ambiguous kind), and not
    by gender-based pronoun.  I like it.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    Do women really hate themselves that much that they avoid
    gender specific pronouns? 
    
    Must be, with the weird names girls are getting nowadays...

    	RE: .98
    
    	> Do women really hate themselves that much that they
    	> avoid gender specific pronouns?
    
    	> Must be...
    
    	What a bizarre accusation to make from such an isolated
    	example of business etiquette.
    
    	Your bias is showing, Bob.
    

    
    What bias? It was only a question.
    
    

    The bias was in the assumption (in the base question) that
    the use of gender neutral pronouns is the result of women's
    self hatred. To my mind, I don't see much connection between
    not liking to always be referred to as 'he' or 'his' in
    generic documents and self hatred in women.
    
    Bonnie

The weekly "SportsActive" section in today's Boston Globe (14-Apr) has
a 6-7 page series of articles on women marathoning (with especial reference
to Monday's Boston Marathon), starting with several quotes from a friend of
mine, Sara Mae Berman, who won Boston 3 times before it became official,
and wore F1 the first year women were officially permitted to run.

(Feel free to ignore the article on Rosie Ruiz.)

By the way, if the weather's good on Monday (40-50 degrees), Ingrid
Kristiansson will try to break 2:20 (the woman's equivalent of the
4-minute mile).

Martin.

The following is a paraphrase from memory:

"It's very rare that TV commercials show women all alone in them." says Joe.
"Hmmmm?" says Mez, who has not been paying attention to either the TV or Joe.
"That Toyota commericial showed a woman all alone in a car. Usually
commericials show women with their husbands or kids." says Joe.
"Oh, you mean that car commericial with the business-looking woman getting
somewhere reliably because of her car. Yeah. Good observation." says Mez.

Kudos to Toyota (and Joe :-).
	Mez

    From an article in "InfoWorld", a pc-industry trade journal:
                       
    "Picture this scenario:  a key administrative aide in your company
    comes down with a severe bout of the flu.  Unfortunately, he is in the
    middle of preparing a critical report.... Although the aide's files are
    inteact and logically named, the department head realises she doesn't
    have anyone on staff proficient enough...."
    
    It was written by a woman, which diluted the impact for me, but it's
    still a *great* change from what we used to...and mostly still do :-(
    ...find in these rags. 
    
    						=maggie

    
    Maggie,
    
    I read a lot of the PC trade rags, and I frequently find refreshing
    instances like the one you described.
    
    The difference is very noticeable when you compare PC trade rags
    to magazines like Time, Newsweek, Life, etc... (not to pick on
    any of those mags in particular).
    
    I think this is due to the relative success and influence women
    have in the area of information technology.  (read the credits
    pages and compare)
    
    							nancy b.

    Hunh? I'd like to see a list of all three and four-digit badges 
    broken down by gender, then by position.

    Of three people who have retired from my department in the last
    few years two were women.

    This is the player's guide to a role-playing game set in an
    alternate reality.  (Thomas Edison invented the ether flyer in
    1868, and flew to Mars (with Jack Armstrong) in 1870, where they
    discovered the Martian civilization.  It is now 1889, many Earth
    nations have colonies on Mars, and Britain's is the largest.)
    
    The cover shows a man and woman with pistols, defending themselves
    against the barbaric High Martians (not to be confused with the
    civilized Canal Martians or even the rugged Hill Martians).  Inside
    are illustrations of men and women in roles as Foreign Office Agents,
    Explorers, Dilettante Travellers, Reporters, Inventors, Doctors,
    Scientists, Servants, and modelling the "Quaint Martian Costumes".
    
    The text explains that certain roles are only open to men-characters
    (i.e., not men-players), by government policy.  A woman-character can
    enter such a career only if she "successfully impersonat[es] a man,
    which was done in this period with surprising regularity."  (The
    role of Adventuress is only open to women-characters, with no provision
    *stated* (but the rules are very Do the Fun Thing) for impersonating
    men-characters, but Adventuresses are obliged to have a low
    intelligence, high status man lolling around as a "convenient facade".)
    
    							Ann B.

    RE .106
    
    Perhaps Ken would consider doing something we did in a couple military
    units I have been in. 
    
    Since his secretary is so proficient, let her give the next
    presentation.
    
    Frequently our non-commissioned officers filled in for us and the
    good ones did a better job as presenters than the less proficient
    officer.
    
    Don
    Who knows the secretary/NCO often has a better grasp of the picture
    than the boss
    

From the Apple Publications Style Guide -- a reference for Apple documentation
writers.

Fair Language:  Avoid cultural biases and sterotypes, which may offend some
users of Apple products.  Be aware of the variety of people who are potential
Apple customers, and write consciously to include them.  Include a variety
of ethnic names in examples: not always Jones, Smith, and Johnson; sometimes
Wong, Scharanski, Katabata, Contreras, Meyer, and so on.

Include both female and mail names in examples: not always John, Jim, and
Bob; sometimes Jane and Susan (better yet, sometimes Maria, Carlos,
Yoshiko, and so on).  Portray both women and men in a variety of occupations
and situations, not just stereotypic ones.

Avoid using male pronouns generically.  Use "he or she," or switch to the
plural when "he or she" is awkward.  Sometimes you can use the second person.

  Incorrect: A programmer debugs his code...
  Correct:   A programmer debugs his or her code...
  Better:    Programmers debug their code; you debug your code.

...

Female connector: Don't use; use "socket."

Male connector: Don't use; use "plug."

Martin.

Martin:

> Female connector: Don't use; use "socket."
>
> Male connector: Don't use; use "plug."

  This last bit strikes me as a bit much.  It's also likely to
  lead people astray.

  o It's a bit much because here, in speaking of connectors, we're
    making direct reference to things that have the important attri-
    bute of gender, we're not speaking of humans (where the important
    attribute is their humanity and not gender).  We're also not draw-
    ing any value judgements.  Male connectors are no better nor worse
    than female connectors and one is certainly useless without the
    other.

  o It's also a bit much because it does away with a nearly perfectly
    obvious analogy.  Consider a BC22-E Modem Extension Cable.  Almost
    any of us could figure out which end is the male end and which end
    is the female end.  I'm not sure we could unambiguously figure out
    which end is the plug and which is the socket, especially when
    simultaneously confronted with two more chassis-mounted connectors
    on, say, a terminal and a modem.


  Perhaps Apple better stick to hermaphroditic connectors.

                                   Atlant

re: .111:

> Female connector: Don't use; use "socket."
>
> Male connector: Don't use; use "plug."

Actually, I think this is a very good idea for several reasons:

-- "male" and "female" give human (or at least living) attributes to
   inanimate objects, which is not really called for.

-- "male" and "female" don't necessarily translate well, or would be
   readily understood by someone whose native language is not English.
   (My favorite example is trying to explain "vanilla file format" to
   someone who isn't from an ice-cream culture.)

-- You can only understand "male" and "female" connectors if you assume that
   the male plug goes into the female socket.  I suspect that it is this
   obviously sexual image that is seen as inappropriate.

It's not quite relevant, but I believe that Apple connectors generally have
(male) plugs on their cables and sockets on the computer/periferal/apparatus.
Thus, there is no real reason for someone to have to decide which end is "male"
and which end "female." Even the power cord has two plugs, even if one is
genetically  "female" -- in this case, of course, the "female" plug
enters the "male" socket.  At this point, the sexual labels make even
less sense.

Martin.

re: .112:

Forgot to mention: the "ice-cream culture" anecdote was told to me by
Beatrice Walther (very infrequent participant here).

Martin.

    
    	I just got back from the EAA (experimental aircraft association)
    convention in OSHKOSH, WI.
    
    	Apart from being the cleanest gathering of 1 million people I have
    ever attended, Huggies had set up booths with changing tables and
    free diapers for parents.  It wasn't in the ladies' room.
    
    Just found it interesting.  (along with the rest of the convention)

<---- did you run into Jim Lloyd????   He just bot his own 4-seater
      1957 Cesna.  He's boss to a few -wn-'ers, too!  Neat guy!

      justme....jacqui

    Small victory for woman's movement!!
    
    Sacks, who altered men's suits for free and women's suits for $40,
    now decided to alter women's suits for free! It took a couple of
    law suits but the decision warms the cockles of my heart.
    
    Now, if only:
    
    * Woman's haircuts and men's haircuts cost the same.
    
    * Dry cleaners didn't charge twice as much for women's suits
                                                             
    * Insurance companies didn't require, upon confirmation of a name
    change, for women to claim their husbands as drivers of their cars
    when men do not have to insure thier wives as drivers of theirs.
    
    Long way to go?
    
    Kate
    

>    * Insurance companies didn't require, upon confirmation of a name
>    change, for women to claim their husbands as drivers of their cars
>    when men do not have to insure thier wives as drivers of theirs.

    I would  think  that  this  last item would be held illegal rather
    easily. The others are defensible (not believable, but defensible)
    with arguments like "The suits are different, and one is harder to
    clean than the other" or "Alterations are included in the price of
    certain  garments". I don't believe these arguments, but they will
    be made.  The bit about insurance is simply absurd.

--David

    We are required to identify all licensed drivers in the household 
    when we insure our cars...if we change our name it is assumed there
    is a new member.  Men do not have to go through that process (changing
    their name) but at the time of renewal there is a question that they
    should answer.
    
    If in fact a man's wife were to have an accident and he did not have
    her listed the insurance company could refuse to pay the claim.

    Seen in the paper yesterday _ the Cadet commander, or senior
    cadet, at West Point, this year, is a twenty year-old woman.

>    * Woman's haircuts and men's haircuts cost the same.

 I don't think that will happen until men and women get haircuts that require
a similar amount of time and skill.

 The Doctah

    re: 121
    
    I must disagree - women get charged much more whether the hair is
    simple to cut or more difficult.  My mother-in-law has hair all one
    length.  To have it trimmed at all one length costs her $20.  At the
    same hair salon her husband can have it cut (layers mind you) and blow
    dried for $15.  Makes a lot of sense when hers takes 5-10 minutes and
    his takes 15-20.
    
    Suzanne

    From the Boston Globe on Wednesday, August 9th:

    The state of Rhode Island has awarded tax-exempt status to the
    religious organization "Our Lady of the Roses" Wiccan Coven.

    Re: .121
    
    My hair is all one length.  I usually want 1-2 inches off the bottom,
    an extremely simple cut (easier, in fact, than many men's cuts, since
    men rarely have hair all of one length).  If I get it cut by a stylist,
    it costs as much as any woman's haircut.
    
    In fact, I wonder how much of a difference there is in the amount of
    time and skill required for women's and men's haircuts.

Well, the person who cut my hair last didn't spend nearly as much
time on it as she did on a teen-age boy's recently -- he had her
draw/shave a picture of a cow in his haircut.  (She said it took
her an hour...)

	MKV

Oh Mary, that's wonderful! I saw a bat-insignia on a wrestler; I didn't know
regular folks were doing it!
	Mez

    According to  some  Jewish traditions, men and women will be equal
    in the messianic era (after the messiah comes).

    I found  this  out while studying the marriage ceremony. The groom
    places  a  ring on the brides finger to protect her, and the bride
    goes around the groom seven (or three, depending on who you listen
    to)  times to protect him, and to foreshadow the time when men and
    women would be equal.

--David

    Wow!  I never ran into that particular midrash.  At least, in a Jewish
    wedding, no one asks "who gives this woman...."! (Apparently it used to
    be very daring to have your father answer "her mother and I do"...)
    
    /Charlotte

    
    
    The following was sent to me as personal mail this afternoon, and
    I like it so much that I asked my friend if I could enter it
    in the file as an anon note.
    
    Bonnie
    =wn= comod
    
    
     
I went to a trade show with my wife this week-end. I made a few observations
that I thought you might be interested in. 
 
As a male/female team we see alot that all male of all female teams may
be missing. As we left one booth my wife remarked that it didn't really 
bother her when people assumed that the man was in charge (in our case it 
is definitely the woman who is charge in things related to our store). 
I pointed out that that was not happening as often as it had even two years 
ago and she agreed. I also pointed out, what she hadn't realized, that when 
we went to a booth where a woman was in charge she invariably assumed that 
my wife was in charge. Turn about is fair play I guess.
 
At the same time once my wife started asking her questions almost everyone
picked up who was really in charge. Again this is improved over a trade
show a few years ago.
 
This was a general merchandise show so there was a wide variety of products
and companies. Interestingly enough a lot, perhaps most, of the companies
that were there to introduce a new product and which appeared to be startups
were either run by women or had women as major partners or executives.
Minority run outfits, especially Oriental owned, businesses were also widely
represented both as good sized established and small start up companies.
 
A woman business person got a tremendous amount of support from other
women at this show. I would not be surprised if a tremendous amount of
woman to woman networking was going on with people who were in town for
more than one day of the four day show. I believe that an "old girl"
network to rival the "old boy" network may appear in our lifetime.
 
We will be going to more of these shows in the future. I can't wait to
see if they're all like this.

    Last week, I attended a meeting with a sales representative, the sales 
manager for the eastern region, and the president (he flew out from California 
to talk with us) of a company that makes specialized analysis equipment 
for electron microscopes.   They invited all the people from DIGITAL in this 
area who have purchased or will purchase such systems (cost $40 to 100k).

     We were invited to tell them why we chose the system that we did -- and 
to discuss what features we would like to see in future generations of equipment.
So there we were  --  five intelligent, articulate, logical  WOMEN  who are 
spending the money here and making the decisions.  Those three male executives 
listened to every word!!


Barbara

     

    re.13.470  'a car of her own...'
    
    When I bought my car this past January, the salesman and dealership
    were most accepting of me.
    
    In fact, the salesman was a bit shocked that I brought Rick in to have
    his name put on the title.  Rick asked if he could test-drive the car
    and the salesman turned to me and said, 'It's your car. Do you mind?'
    
      Ann

I heard a very brief clip on WBCN this morning along the lines of "A woman
professor at <someuniversity> charged the school with discrimination, and
for the first time under <Federal anti-discrimination laws?> she had her
professorship reinstated, with tenure."

I should really read the newspaper instead of listening to the radio.

D!

The Boston Globe announced today that Filene's Basement's downtown Boston
store will soon have a dressing room for women.  I.e., no more "frenzied
scenes of half-clothed women shoppers yanking dresses over their heads."

According to an agreement with MCAD (Mass. Commission Against Discrimination)
the dressing room will have to be at least equal in size to the men's dressing
room which was described as a "bullpen-type arrangement."

"Until the women's facility is built, Filene's Basement will continue to
march to its own eccentric beat.

"Yesterday, as every day, women threw on turtlenecks over their heads in
midaisle and tried on designer cocktail dresses over jeans.

"As one shopper said, while eyeing a sequened Givenchy dress, reduced from
$4,350 to $299: ''A women with no bra and a little bikini could drop
dead in the middle of the floor and no one would care.''"

>>The Boston Globe announced today that Filene's Basement's downtown Boston
>>store will soon have a dressing room for women.  I.e., no more "frenzied
>>scenes of half-clothed women shoppers yanking dresses over their heads."
  
    Another great shopping tradition bites the dust!  Wanna bet that
    women will still continue to yank clothes on and off in the ailes
    to ensure their snagging the best buys (at least the "real" power
    shoppers will do that ! :-)  )
    
>>According to an agreement with MCAD (Mass. Commission Against Discrimination)
>>the dressing room will have to be at least equal in size to the men's dressing
>>room which was described as a "bullpen-type arrangement."
    
    Gee, I didn't know that there even was a men's dressing room.  Seems
    to me it would be far more interesting if they took away the men's
    dressing room rather than adding a women's dressing room to make
    things even!
    
    Laura_who_will_be_doing_some_power_shopping_in_the_basement_this_week
    

       The men's dressing room in Filene's Basement is a true piece of
       work.  It's a concrete-block room, painted junior high school
       brown, with one bench, a half-dozen or so hooks on the wall, one
       (1) mirror that seems to get cleaned on alternate Candlemas days,
       and no partitions or dividers.
       
       I trust that the distaff facilities will be equally gay.
       
       --Mr Topaz
       
       p.s.: Anyone who thinks that a suburban F.B. is the same, or even
       remotely similar, to the Boston F.B. has probably ordered fajitas
       on their last dining out experience. 

    I went to one of those suburban Filene's Basement stores this past week
    and I nearly had a stroke.  I wasn't sure what store I was in, but it
    certainly wasn't the F.B. at downtown crossing and I think they have
    their *nerve* calling those suburban jobs Filene's basement!
    
    Laura
    

I guess this goes here....

Last night, my buddy Andy was looking at a magazine of mine.  It was addressed
to "Miss Lisa Gassaway"

To which he replied, "Miss?? Blech. Why don't they just use Ms.?"

Lisa

Myabe someone has alredy entered this (haven't read all the notes) but I 
don't watch TV much so I am out of such things...

Watching commercial TV last night for the first time in, a year or so,
there was an ad for Hanes panty hose, a follow-up to the old "Gentlemen
prefer Hanes" ad string.  A woman watching a TV show about fashion while
getting dressed.  She is dressing in a short skirt and hose while the guy
on the TV is rambling on about how short skirts are horrible and totally
"out" this year...and then the voice over..."No matter what the gentlemen
prefer...the lady prefers Hanes."  :-)

D!

D!, I guess you also missed the Fruit of the Loom ad, which has various
women ogling well-built men who are putting on or taking off their
underwear.  I began to wonder if this was a step forwards or backwards...

				Steve

    While taking a different route in to work the other day I saw a
    carpentry company van emblazoned "Michaelson and Daughter".
    
    When filling out a magazine subscription for Systems Integration I
    noticed there were only two titles to choose from: Ms. and Mr.

The 1989 IRS 1040 *finally* has official space for "Your last name"
_and_ "Spouse's last name".


Bobbi_who'll_probably_never_file_another_joint_return

    The year-end double issue of 'US News and World Report' had an
    excellent ad from Planned Parenthood titled "What Every Man
    Should Know About Abortion."

    Also a good article about companies finding new ways to deal
    with working mothers, parental leave, etc. 

Not sure whether this belonged in the Sexism Alive topic or not, because it's
kind of reverse sexism, although I get the impression it's pretty sarcastic....

The Robert Palmer reply in the Sexism note brought this to mind.
There's a video by Michelle Shocked that has her singing with mannequin style
men in the background.  It's supposed to be a spoof of the RP videos.

I thought it was pretty funny.

Lisa

    It was particularly funny when they played the two back to back....

    From the never-underestimate-the-power-of-a-woman dept.:
    
    Benazir Bhutto, Prime Minister of Pakistan, gave birth to a daughter
    today--perhaps the first head of state [in the 20th century] to do so.
    Of course, she's appointed someone to lead the country temporarily.
    Even PM's get maternity leave!  
    
    Kudos to NPR for thinking this news important enough to report. 
      

    RE: "perhaps the first head of state [in the 20th century] to do so."
    
    What about Queen Elizabeth?
    
    ed

    The NPR report stated that Ms Bhutto (or however it is spelled) was the
    first _elected_ head-of-state to give birth while in office.  Royalty
    doesn't get elected.
    
    					Nigel

Also from the NPR report:

	An opposition spokesman (complained) that she would be leaving the
	country leaderless until she is able to take up her duties again.

	She has appointed her mother to run the country in the mean time.

-Neil

    re: 146,147
    Why didn't I think of that?
    
    re:148
    Maybe this should be in the other note...My own sexism at work:  I
    half-listened to who she appointed and *assumed* it was a man.  OOOOOOh
    that hurts.  
    
    Nancy_in_dire_need_of_an_attitude_adjustment
    

    There was a piece on NPR this morning about a local group called
    "Real Men", that has organized to fight violence against women.
    One of their leaders, Jackson Katz (sp?) was talking about a march
    planned for this Sunday.  They are raising money for the Coalition
    of Shelters for Battered Women.  He said that the Stuart case was
    about a man murdering his wife, that four women are killed every
    day by their male partners-a statistic too high to be due to random
    lunatics (I didn't catch the geographical area this stat covered).
    They are walking on Sunday because the Super Bowl is a celebration
    of male agression within acceptable bounderies, and they would like
    men to take time out and think about domestic violence which is
    unacceptable and crosses the boundaries.  It really made my day!
    	Linda

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 1997              Tuesday  6-Feb-1990            Circulation :  7839 

    Women are to be allowed to serve on Royal Navy warships effectively
    ending a ban on women in combat roles.  The move was announced in the
    Commons by Armed Forces Minister Archie Hamilton, at the end of a
    six-hour debate on the Royal Navy.  He told the House: "Our aim is for
    the first of them to be embarked by the end of the year."  It ends
    months of argument within the Navy, the Ministry of Defence and the
    Women's Royal Navy Service.
    
    {News courtesy of the BBC}

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 1997     Tuesday  6-Feb-1990   <><><><><><><><>

Swimsuit Magazine just published its annual sports issue.

Martin.

    re: .152
    
    Old-rules girls' basketball is, according to Sports Illustrated, the
    biggest winter high-school sport in Iowa -- outdraws boys' BB in all
    but the biggest schools.
    
    --bonnie

    re:.156  I discussed Iowa's 3-on-3 basketball style with some Iowans when I
    was there last year.  I didn't think the excitement expressed was the
    result of any perversion.
    
    ed

    Also, although I have never seen old-rules girls basketball games, from
    what I have heard of the rules I would wonder if there is all that much
    "running around", since the players are supposed to stay in specific
    zones on the court.  Perhaps the Iowa games are not played by the rules
    I am thinking of, though.  If they are, I am surprised to hear that
    anyone plays by those rules anymore.

    -- Mike

    The essentials of the rules: 3 defensive players and 3 offensive
    players per team.  Respective players play their own half of the
    court and never cross.
    
    The 'good' part of this style is that a school with a very small
    number of females can field a team because they need do very little
    substitution -- the players rest nearly half the game while on the
    court.  Also the end of the court with the ball tends to be more active
    than in the full court game where there is a lot more passing and
    stalling.
    
    The 'bad' part is that women who go on to college and want to play
    by the "real" rules have to learn the other half of the game.
    
    Two states, Iowa and Oklahoma play by those rules.  There is a subset
    of Iowa schools, mostly the bigger ones, which play by modern rules.
    I do not know if any OK schools play by the modern rules.
    
    ed

    At least in eastern Kansas and Missouri, both women's
    basketball and volleyball seem to pull in crowds nearly the
    size of the men's games.  This was true of volleyball in my
    high school, and is true of women's basketball at the
    University of Kansas.  When Lynette Woodard was playing
    basketball at KU (she graduated in the early 80's, I think,
    and was recruited by the Harlem Globetrotters) a *lot* of
    people went to the women's games.

    -- Linda

I have been very pleased to see that the Nashua (NH) Telegraph covers
local girls' sports with the same enthusiasm, sometimes even more, than
they do for boys' sports.  The girls high school basketball games usually
get the lead story in the sports section, with a large picture of the game.
I've also seen good coverage of girls' track and field events, including
a picture of a female shot putter (something I had not known was typically
done in competition).

It may be partly because the Nashua High School girls' basketball team is
so good, winning national championships, but the paper does seem to be
eager to present girls' sports as being equally important as boys' sports.

					Steve

    
    Zarlenga, take a big bite of this bar of soap...

    While in the San Jose airport earlier this month, the Men's room is
    equipped with a baby changing area!
    
    Eric

    There were some highway rest areas that I stopped in last month
    that had baby changing tables also.  I think it was in Virginia
    on rte I-81 but I'm not sure.  They were the type that fold up
    into the wall.
    
    One of them was in a really awkward spot as it effectively blocked
    access to the urinals.  It was really put in by an unthinking clod.
    But as the base note's title says, "There's hope yet."
    
    ed

    re: last couple
    
    There are definitely some in the highway rest areas along I-80 in
    Pennsylvania. I kept meaning to mention them here (I first noticed
    them circa Thanksgiving) but kept forgetting.
    
    --- jerry

I'm pretty sure I saw some in Boston's Logan airport recently -- directly
accessable to the halls, and thus not in either restroom.  Imagine, a
"unisex" baby changing facility!

Also saw them in the men's room in the Modern Museum in Stockholm about
10-15 years ago.

Martin.

    I used to play 6 woman basketball on my highschool team. I think the
    game was designed back when people didn't think women were capable
    of the exertion required for 5 man basketball.
    AND NOW WOMEN RUN MARATHONS !! YAY!

    re .168 Women play 5-*man* basketball too. At least, one did.
    A couple years ago the Springfield Fame minor-league team
    had a woman member. (Do they call it '4-man and a woman'
    B-ball now ?)
    
    Dana

	AND NOW WOMEN RUN MARATHONS!

They did 20 years ago.  A friend of mine won Boston 3 years in a row, and
has the permanent "best woman's time before women were officially invited"
(and wore F1 for the first official maraton in 1972 or 3 or so).

She just got back from competing in the world ski orienteering championships.
(This is more an indication that only 4 women in America were interested
in being on the team than the abilities of a 50+ year old grandmother.)

Martin.

"La Suisse"  Tuesday, March 13th, 1990 - page 27 - Regional news

I have entered the original article, the English translation is just below.
Accept my apologies for the lack of accents normally required in French, as 
well as for the lousy translation... I just hate translating!


	APPENZELL: VOTE DES FEMMES - C'EST BIEN PARTI

APPENZELL (ATS) - Les Appenzellois des Rhodes-Interieures seront les derniers
Suisses a se prononcer sur l'introduction du suffrage cantonal feminin lors 
de leur prochaine Landsgemeinde du 29 avril.

Hier, le Grand Conseil du demi-canton a approuve sans discussion en deuxieme 
lecture le projet, dont il recommande l'acceptation a l'assemblee populaire.
Appenzell Rhodes-Exterieures avait approuve le droit de vote pour ses femmes
l'annee derniere. Le vote des femmes est pour la cinquieme fois soumis a la 
Landsgemeinde dans les Rhodes-Interieures, sous la pression d'une plainte de
de droit constitutionnel deposee par une citoyenne du demi-canton au Tribunal 
federal.

Before the translation, a little background: Switzerland is a confederation of
22 states, called "cantons", two cantons are divided in "half-cantons", brin-
ging the total to 24 cantons. Women already have the vote on federal matters,
but each canton being sovereign in cantonal affairs, one last half-canton still 
denies the cantonal vote to women. The Landsgemeinde is a voting assembly were 
voting is done by counting the hands helpd up. One of the reasons given for 
denying women the right to vote is that it would be the death of this custom, 
as there would be too many people to hold them all together in the village's 
center square...



	APPENZELL: WOMEN'S VOTE - ON IT'S WAY

APPENZELL (ATS) - The Appenzellians from Rhodes-Int. (half-canton) will be the 
last Swiss to give their opinion on the introduction of the women's vote at
cantonal level during the next Landsgemeinde held on April 29th.

Yesterday, the High Council of the half-canton has approved without discussion
the second reading of the project, which it recommends the popular assembly to
accept. Appenzell Rhodes-Ext (the other half-canton) had approved the women's
right to vote last year. The women's vote is submitted for the fifth time to
the Landsgemeinde, under the pressure of a complaint on constitutional grounds
made by a female citizen af that canton to the Federal Court.

    And to think Switzerland is a "civilized" country.  I had heard that
    women didn't have the vote, but I didn't know about the national/local
    division of voting.  Please keep us posted.
    
    Nancy

	All this week I have been pleasantly surprised.

- Worcester Sunday paper sports section front page.  
    Almost 1/2 page picture of girls Bball. 1/2 remaining space write ups
    of two girls playoff games.

- Boston weekday paper sports section front page.
    Large pictures of H.S. girls sports and 2-3 pges of print inside.

	It is good to see local girls teams getting coverage even ahead
of the Pro men's teams.      yaaay

			KBear

    Extracted from a memo a received earlier this month:
    
    For tracking actual deployment <group> personnel will be allowed
    to designate up to three focus areas including any combination
    of Applications and Technologies.
    
    	Examples:
    
    				Primary	  Secondary I	Secondary II
    
    		J. Chan		NET	  MIS		-
    		M. Smith	VMS	  CLU		FT
    
    A base level knowledge of ...
    
    							Ann B.

    Yesterday at Lionel Playworld (The other half of Toys 'R Us), I
    found a coloring book about a little boy visiting the corporate
    office of......his mother.  She was an executive with a male
    "assistant" (i.e. secretary).  It was a pleasure to glance through!
    
    Also, there is currently a one woman play running in Salt Lake called
    "Mother Wove the Morning" that orignally was scheduled for a three
    week run.  It is a play by a woman about women and for women that
    is back for the third straight month to sell-out crowds every night.
    It has been considered so controversial that there was a bit of
    picketing by some males warning women entering that it goes against
    "Biblical teachings."  Having seen the play, been inspired by
    it and recommended it highly to others, I think it's long overdue
    in Utah's patriarcal society.  We may just be emerging from the
    dark ages!:)
    
    Barb

re: .17 (Ann Broomhead)

Er...I don't get it...what is it an example of?

D!

    D!
    
    notice that the first name used for the example is not anglosaxon
    or even european
    
    B

    And that you don't know the first name of the first name (as
    it were), which might indicate gender.
    
    							Ann B.

You might have read a full-page article in the Globe recently about the
new assistant general manager of the Boston Red Sox, a black woman.

What you might not have heard (because it wasn't publicized) is that
the general counsel of the Boston Garden and the Boston Bruins is
also a black woman (she's had the job for a bit over a year, now).
(She runs with the Boston Hash House Harriers.)

Martin.

    
    Yesterday my wife took our sheepdog to the vets for his yearly
    checkup. The regular vet was on vacation and a woman vet was
    filling in. It dawned on me that I'd never seen or heard of
    a woman vet before. 
    
    							Hank

    Re .180, my current vet is a woman, and all three of her assistants
    are young women.  She's great and her prices are very reasonable,
    too.  I found her just by coincidence, too.  When I made the
    appointment I didn't even realize she was a woman.  Her animal clinic
    had been recommended to me as being good, with reasonable prices,
    with no mention of her being a woman.  Maybe that's a good sign,
    too.
    
    So, my cats are ahead of me!  I still go to a male dentist and a
    male doctor.
    
    Lorna
    

    	Every so often, I see Dr. Anita <mumble>, DVM, on PBS.
    	She usually does a show on dogs and cats. Saw the last
    	one about 2 weeks ago. She was checking out a a litter
    	of frisky Dalmatians.
    
    	Scott

    Re. Hank
    
    I've seen a few (if not literal dozens).  About 1/3 of the vets
    I've been to are women.  I'm surprised you've never run into one
    before.  Maybe get out to veterinary clinics more often??  ;)
    
    Actually, -.2 back made me think "Now there's a profession I've
    not seen too many women in!"  Women dentists.  all the women I've
    seen in dental offices were hygenists, assistants, receptionists,
    or patients.  Hmmmm!
    
    ---kim

    My last three dentists have all been women, so it might not be that
    unusual.
    
    They were all fairly young, though - probably why they got stuck with
    the evening and weekend hours.
    
    Ray

    	In college, I had a small crush on the older sister of a friend of
    mine - Dr Emily, DDS ;-)
    
    					--D

    
    Yeah, it doesn't seem that unusual to me, either; I always wanted to 
    be a vet when I was a kid.  (How did I end up here?!)  When I brought 
    an injured crow to Tuft's Veterinary school wildlife clinic, the
    supervising vet was a woman and the senior student assigned to the 
    crow was an attractive young woman named Angela.
    
    CQ

    Christine
    
    I always wanted to be a vet also..
    
    when I finished my degree in Bio from Mt Holyoke I was told that
    my chances of getting into vet school ranged from 0 to none given
    the difficulty of getting accepted as a woman at any vet school in the
    late 60s.
    
    So I got an MA in zoology instead and then later moved to a farm
    where I learned how to 'vet' my own livestock because there are
    so few vets left in Mass who do large animal practice..
    
    (every tried to take a pony for an office visit? or imagine the looks
    you get when you tuck your goat in the car for a run to the vet's
    office?)
    
    
    Bonnie

    
<    (every tried to take a pony for an office visit? or imagine the looks
<    you get when you tuck your goat in the car for a run to the vet's
<    office?)
    
    Well Bonnie, it's not unusual in Colorado. In fact my vet was just
    telling me last weekend about a horse at their clinic that got away and
    ran down Academy Blvd, one of the busiest streets in Colorado Springs!

    Large animal vets usually make house calls though. :*) liesl

          re: 13.638 (D! Carroll)
          
          > At first I was pleased that they showed a lot of women riding
          > the bikes, [...]  But the voice-over! Arrrg!  They started in
          > with: "The safe driver is always alert; *he* (strong emphasis
          > on "he")
          
          D!'s story about the woman bike rider being referred to as the
          generic "he" by the voice-over reminded me of a similar situation
          I was in a while ago which ended a much more positive manner,
          thanks to another =wn=er that happened to be in the right place
          at the right time.    [warning, this might get long-winded ;-]
          
          At the Low End Systems Expo '90, I was part of a demonstration
          involving 3 people (all women) executing the demo and 1 person (a
          man) describing what we were doing.  I had never met the man in
          charge of the demo, and had only been formally introduced to the
          other 2 women before that day.  A series of lectures from
          Motorola execs had just finished, and the audience was exiting
          the Doriot auditorium, which fed into the demo area.
          
          Well who wandered over to my demo area but Martin Minow and an
          architect that I'd worked with during my first 1.5 years at
          Digital.  We proceeded with the demo.  The man describing my
          actions was saying something like, "when the user of system xyz
          does this, he then will show that..."  Of course, this caused my
          ear lobes to turn upside-down :-].
          
          Martin, astutely recognizing what was happening, quickly
          interjected something like, "Nancy will kick your knee in if you
          refer to her as a he."  The engineer that I'd worked with
          previously agreed with Martin's assessment of the situation.
          
          [He and I lunched together frequently, and was very aware of my
          feminist philosophies thanks to a different engineer I worked
          with who frequently made statements like, "I think of women as
          mostly sex objects," and "I hope [wife's name] has made a good
          dinner tonight.", etc.]
          
          How two seemingly random people from a group exiting an
          auditorium observing a demo would know how I feel about being
          referred to as a "he" seemed to surprise the man describing the
          demo.  He gave me a strange look (I could hardly contain myself
          ;-), corrected himself, and proceeded.
          
          Later, we had a 1 on 1 discussion about it, and truly positive
          communication occurred as a result.  Anyway, I think Martin and
          another engineer first commenting on it made it _a lot_ easier
          for me to gently broach the subject with someone I didn't know.
          
                                                  nancy b.

Not specifically a woman thing, but the upcoming Boston Marathon is
showing wheelchair athletes in a prominent role:

-- Ricoh has a full-page color ad in the official program and the current
   months issue of New England Runner showing two wheelchair athletes
   speeding neck and neck.

-- The press kit has biographies of lead men and women wheelchair athletes.

-- The press jacket shows a wheelchair leading the field (which is what
   happens in the race itself).

Martin.

    NETMAN:: has been replaced with...
    
    
    
   NETLDY::
    

    VMS Engineering was just reorganized.  A friend asked me if my new
    supervisor were male or female.  I chided them about how that shouldn't
    be important information, but they wanted to know because they were
    expecting a supervisor probably to be male.  As it happens, my
    supervisor is female.
    
    When I got back to my office, I checked the organization chart.  I had
    previously separated three pages from the rest (this thing is big), the
    three pages that illustrated that path from me to the top of VMS, and I
    had pinned those pages on a wall and examined the path from me up,
    including the names of the various divisions and the managers.
    
    But I hadn't noticed that my supervisor, group manager, and cost center
    manager were all female.  It just wasn't important/distinctive.
    
    
    				-- edp

    Mine too.  Isn't it neat? I do think it's distinctive.  And cool.  So
    many role models!  So many mentors!
    
    -Jody

    	I'm not sure if this quite belongs in this note, but I know
    I've seen discussions about this, and I thought it was
    interesting.

    	On the copyright page in one of the books that I'm using for a 
    research paper, I noticed the following paragraph:

    	"All references in this book to personnel of male gender are
    used for convenience only and shall be regarded as including both
    males and females."

    (The book has a copyright date of 1987).  Now maybe I just haven't
    been paying attention, but that's the first time I'd ever seen that 
    explicity documented.

    	amy

    Amy, it sounds to me like that was a shortcut.  
    
    mdh
    

    Amy,
    
    I've seen that kind of thing before and consider it a copout.  If
    people choose to retain the traditional male pronouns, I can live with
    that easier than having them say something to the effect that, "I
    *know* better, but, frankly, it's too much bother to write
    differently!"  Better that they keep quiet and do what they want!
    
    A writer myself,
    Nancy

Similar text was in a U.S. Army training manual published in 1981.

A recent U.S. Officer's Training manual showed a wide mixture of
gender and ethnicity among both officers and enlisted personnel.

Martin.