Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I don't think Mike Carleton is the only person who suggested this
    topic, but he's certainly the one who seems to have gotten some
    action on it!

    In the previous version of =wn=, people sometimes just mentioned the
    author and note number. My memory isn't what it once was, so reading
    something like "Remember that great note that Fred wrote: 103.30"
    confuses heck out of me. Please put in some more information.

    thanks					-- hs

    
    95.9 by Suzanne Conlon- a very funny and perceptive comment on the
    'power relationships in advice giving'
    
    and
    
    75.30 by Catherine Ianuzzo- a re-entry from volume 1 discussing
    our perceptions of what is 'normal' and the real meaning of 'valuing
    differences'
    
    should be required reading for all!
    

109.102 by Sandy Ciccolini - discusses sex, money, men, women, humans, and
society. Puts it together in a way that gave me new insights, and rang bells in
my head.
	Mez

    I am delighted to direct people's attention to note 5.89
    by Catherine Iannuzzo on "intellectual honesty".  I just hope
    that her "hot button" never cools, so the note doesn't get deleted.
    
    				Steve

    In note 155.74, Lauren Foster wrote a reply in a very heated topic,
    where she was able to express a viewpoint distinctly at odds to the
    dominant tone of the discussion with exceptional care and delicacy. 
    
    I hope that all of us, when we are tempted to flame about something,
    could go back and read her note for a magnificent example of how
    disagreement can be expressed without telling others that they are
    wrong.
    
    	-Neil 

    More of Catherine Iannuzzo's brilliant insight--this time on how
    our discussions are sidetracked and misunderstandings occur.
    
    -Tracy
    

Dale Hall sharing her experiences with breast cancer. It's a very difficult and
scarey issue for me to think about, and I often get lost in the technical terms
in reports I read. Such an immediate account helps me break down some mental
barriers.
	Mez

Martin.

Two notes in the "Who's hiding?" topic (260) have stood out.  .65, by chelsea,
is an eloquent shriek against giving those with whom you disagree a taste of
their own medicine.  And .53 (nominated by Martin in the previous reply), by
Bonnie Reinke, describes how Bonnie felt when she was the butt of in jokes
during her school years.  It reminds us how foolish discrimination by the
"ins" against the "outs" can be.

Thank you both for writing.

						--Q (Dick Wagman)

    Re .10
    I also vote for Bonnie and .53
    
    But I am applauding Tracey H. on her calm note, in defense of
    another noter, Tracey wrote 260.162 and got flamed by one of
    her own, for defending a male writer. 
    
    Dave

>Tracey wrote 260.162 and got flamed by one of
>    her own, ...

For heavens sake Dave, you make it sound _bad_. I mean, flaming _is_ bad (if
that's what it was), but I'm hoping and praying for the day that women can
disagree _with_each_other_ in this notesfile. And not spend all their energies
disagreeing with people who happen to be men. We just don't grow that way; it's
just travelling old ground (though the men might grow).
	Mez

    I'd like to nominate Catherine's 80.102. It's fierce, funny, and
    rings true all at the same time. Thanks, C!
    
    liz

    note 342.123 by luis gonzales made some good points and got me
    laughing (just thinking about =mt making points with hand puppets
    gets me giggling). thanks!
    
    liz
    

This nomination is long overdue.

I read this conference for a number of reasons, one of which is to learn about
aspects of women which I might not learn about elsewhere.  I can think of no
note and replies which have satisfied that need better than note 166 (Adop-
tion:  Working the issues).  Laura Ervin, whose base note and replies take
up more than a third of the replies to date, has taught me more about the
issues of adoption than I had ever dreamed I would learn.  After reading her
stories and her postings of other people's search stories and emotions I think
I feel a sense of empathy towards adoptees and their parents that I never
could have learned from my own (non adoptive) background.  I picked note 166.14
to nominate because it speaks about her own experiences and personality, and
seems particularly touching.  But I could as easily have nominated any of
several of her other replies.  Together they make for fascinating reading; I
particularly recommend them to those who do not have an adoptive background.
Now a lot of what the adoptees and their parents are talking about makes
sense to me.

Laura, thank you for the time, energy, and emotion you have put into your
writing.

						--Q

    Another overdue nomination:  the note by Lauren "Ren" Foster on
    Valuing Differences.  This one note completely changed my views
    on the value of the program here at Digital.
    
    Marge

    369.39 by Peggy Leedberg gets at the heart of the issues around men
    being "gentle and nurturing" in the workplace as a substitute for
    treating women as full equals.
    
    liz

    I'd like to thank every single author who's taken the time to write
    in Note 374.*, Dealing with Death. Each note reveals gentleness
    and respect. Each author has taken a risk in opening up about this
    topic. Thanks. I am touched.
    
    Liz

    This entry by Justine Sullivan on the not-so-apparent value of
    "preaching to the choir" opened my eyes.
    
    DougO

 I'd like to nominate 431.92 by COGMK::CHELSEA as a very reasonable and
rational outlook that seems most likely to get the desired results of any
I've seen in theis file.

 The Doctah

    
    The anonymous entry in 461.36, bypassing the side issues we all
    got bogged down in, discussing the issue of racism. Brilliant,
    gutsy, and inspiring!
    
    (And quite a typing job :^)  )
    
    Roberta

Abortion has been a hot topic around here lately.  It has spun itself into
a number of different notes, and many tempers have flared.

Note 545 (Brookline and Operation Rescue) has provoked a number of heated
replies, with some people defending Operation Rescue and others just as
heatedly opposed.  Just as things were beginning to get hot Les Slater, a
strong OR opponent, came in and wrote 545.51, defending OR's right to
assemble and warning us against casual use of arbitrary governmental power
(even for a cause with which you agree) when basic rights are at stake.
In a topic which has been noted for a lot of heat, Les's reply stands as
an example which must force people on both sides of this issue to stop
and think.  This is a fine example of tackling an emotional issue in a
calm and logical way, while never giving up on the passion inherent.

You may or may not agree with Les's conclusions.  But if you read 545.51,
you will have been forced to think about why you believe what you do.
Thanks, Les, for writing.

						--Q

    Joe_Jas has contributed a wonderful note exploring the meanings
    of co-dependency, addictive love, and Adult Children, and how they
    can tie together.  Good job.
    
    DougO

In 525.47, Doug Olson eloquently presents a thoughtful view of =wn= which
well deserves a place on the suggested reading list for all members of the
community, but especially for the men of =wn=.

He suggests that, as individuals of the =wn= community, the nature of our
participation affects the "climate" and evolution of =wn=.  He supports
this thesis with favorable arguments for

o  encouraging women to express their feelings even though they might be
   difficult for men to accept

o  encouraging men to try to empathize with what might have caused a woman
   to express such a feeling that caused him pain

o  men challenging the woman's statement publicly in =wn=, instead of taking
   the battle private via personal mail



The only question I had after reading his essay was:

Doug Olson, will you marry me?

                                                          :-) / 2,
                                                          nancy b.

Carol Dubois' 590.25, on the stresses of caring for babies.
	Mez

Nancy Bittle's 99.37, on the horrors of what happens _after_ the rape, when
you're supposed to be being helped. We've still got a long way to go!
	Mez

 Bonnie's courageous entry 735.115 in the two legged incubator discussion.
After her reply in the note about women being afraid to say how they really
feel for fear of being misunderstood or flamed, her note is a shining example
of practising what one preaches.

 The Doctah

    I'll second the Doctah's reply and nominate Catherine Iannuzzo's reply
    745.21 for the hall of fame as well.  Bonnie and Catherine both speak
    from conviction, and say it so well.
    
    Marge

    
    at the risk of appearing a 'sensitive male' i second the nomination
    of ms. iannuzzo's brilliant prose on the *real* issues
    

    
    a lot of people just love to speculate and spread rumors, D! strikes a
    blow for truth and knowledge.
    
    i especially love the part about "That is *listen* - not agree, but
    try to hear and understand."  there are so many people that i wish
    i could have told them this...i don't want them to agree with me, i
    just want them to understand that i have my own point of view.
    
    jonathan
    

    I'd like to nominate 820.57, by D_CARROL.

    The point I like is the introduction of the concept of metadiscussion.

    As this notesfile has become the "NOTING NOTE" I really like the
    word meta-discussion as a description of the problem.

    With the advent of FGD,SRO,FWO etc. I think there should be some kind of
    standard developed for discussions similar to ddif, that would describe
    the contents of the discussion.

    Bob
        

    I nominate Justine's 864.36
    
    -Jody

    'Ren Foster's 178.91
    
    The power of it brought me to tears.

>    'Ren Foster's 178.91

I second the nomination.

D!

    I third it
    
    (and I also thought Brian Hetricks 178.89 quite good)
    
    Bonnie

    I second 'em all!  I thought 178.89 was great -- gave a clear,
    nonjudgmental analogy for the different perspectives that are brought
    to the issue.   A breath of calming air.
    
    What I like best is the vision of the third stage, where everyone can
    define for themselves who they are, instead of society (be it
    male-centered or female-centered).
    
    Pam

Not to interupt this string too badly, :-}

John Heffernan (VIA::HEFFERNAN "Juggling Fool" )

I put him in front of eighty-odd cubscouts(or is that 80, odd cubs, hhmmm)
and their parents he did a great juggling show, demonstrated his skills
and let some scouts try their hand at it.

Nice job John, Thanks

Amos

                          <** Moderator Response **>

    Amos, I can't figure out how, whether, or where to move your note, but
    to shortstop similar paeans I have to tell you that I think you
    misunderstood the point of this string:  it's to honor powerful notes
    and their authors, rather than "just" powerful and swell people.

    						=maggie

    I would like to nominate Steve Lionel for 525.126.  Theme of reply:
    MEN DO NOT BENEFIT from rape even if a few do.
    
    Bud

816.3 -- a courageous and compelling note.

For those who have wondered what is meant by saying "the personal is
political", this is a powerful example. If this personal story and all
the many other personal stories of all the survivors of our society
could be woven together into one design, I have no doubt that the
"political" part would be clear.  To quote from the note: 

    * The failure to nurture children is the source of almost all of
    society's woes.  

This is the beginning of the politics -- seeing what all these personal 
stories add up to and figuring out why.

	911.39 by GEMVAX::CICCOLINI on taking offense.  (some
        replies to it start at 746.144)
        
        Dan

	1) 210.452 - 210.442

	Pam Smith, Mary Vaskas, and Bill Doll's discussion in the Gun
	Protection topic concerning their opinions on moving towards 
	universal non-violence provided a very thought-provoking series 
	of replies about gun protection, with each person rationally 
	and calmly explaining their opinions and justifications for 
	their beliefs. (something that rarely happens when talking about
	guns it seems)


	2)  535.152

  	Dorian Kottler's poem "His Smile" about the murder of the 14
        women engineers in Montreal.
   
    
	3)  864.51

        Justine Sullivan's reply entitled "Fighting Misogyny from the
	inside out" in the "Alienation vs Community" topic for explain-
	ing what the word *feminism* means to her, why some might not
	want to be associated with it, and for causing me to reflect
	on what misogyny I could harbor inside myself by following her
	example of such self-analysis.

							nancy b.

> Bonnie Reinke's 922.17!

I DEFINITELY agree with you......I've read it five times already....


What hurts is that it's so wonderful in what's it's saying, but it's based on 
a misunderstanding of my original note.

And to see it voted to the hall of fame feels like a knife being turned in my
back.  (I'm feeling very paranoid, and very hurt by it...I feel that since
it was directed at me, that it invalidates my opinion).

	For content, yes it's definitely a hall of famer, for direction, 
	however, it's not....I pray that Bonnie now understands my intent.

kath

Lorna's 922.67. I laughed; I cried. And I'm not quite sure why. Maybe because
in a topic where we mean to explore our own mysogny, she pointed out some of
mine.
	Mez

    Catherine Iannuzzo's 922.97 on misogyny.

          Chelsea's   922.126  on the importance of women expressing anger.


          I also liked her phrase "caught in the fallout zone", which seems
          to be how a lot of guys I know (and some who read here) feel.

                                                            nancy b.

    Jody Bobbitt's 922.132 on growing up female in American schools.
    
    So much of it related to things I had gone through as well.
    
    Bonnie

    
    could we perhaps have a 'lifetime acheivement award'?
    

    Joe,
    
    I second that vote!
    
    Bonnie

    Third.

    Fourth...

Fifth.

And a second on Jody's note.

And in fact, a nomination for all the people in the misogyny note, particularly
the from the heart childhood story notes.  I can relate to so many!

D!

    930.55, by Catherine T. Iannuzzo, on choice regarding women in
    combat.

    15.771 by Steve Mallett on dealing with strong emotions when noting.
    
    

>    15.771 by Steve Mallett on dealing with strong emotions when noting.

I second it, and shoud take his advise more often.

D!

Notes 980.0 and 980.1 by SUPER::REGNELL (even if they weren't =wn= originals)
entered from H_R by WMOIS::B_REINKE

Brava!

D!

    
    
    			by an anonymous noter
    

  996.16 by Sandy Ciccolini

  I especially liked the parts where she pointed out that when a person 
  "breaks training" -- e.g. a woman gets angry or a man cries -- the
  reasons must be very compelling and it would behoove one and all
  to pay attention when it happens.

  Although Sandy didn't exactly say this, characterizing =WN= as a safety
  valve rather than a safe place makes a lot of sense to me.  That is _not_
  to say that =WN= is where pressure is released harmlessly.  Maybe it
  should be thought of as a training ground -- one where strategies and
  tactics are developed and practiced for future real battles in the real
  world.

  JP

    
    justine sullivan's definitive remarks on misogyny.
    brava!
    

    I'd like to nominate Mike Valenza's sensitive 997.25.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    	Wonderful note by Sandy Ciccolini (1019.8)!  Really hit home!
    

    Another good one.... 1019.21
    
    -Jody
    

    You beat me to it!  1019.21 by Sandy Ciccolini.
    
    Pam

    Indeed.  What a powerful note!

    So far the all time winner. IMHO
    
    Phil

Sandy, 1019.21 is some of the best writing I've ever read anywhere.
And by far, it's the best I've ever read in Notes.

You've reinforced my strong and unwavering pride in being a woman.
Thank you for writing that.  You are completely right!

Carla

    
    	Sandy - you did it again!  
    
    	Wonderful!!
    

	We may have lost Catherine but we still have Sandy.  Given
	the chance many gems shine through the rubble.

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |

			The Goddess is very present in the
			words of this file.    

    
    Oh, what the hey, here's the gazillionth vote for Sandy's note.
    I'm behind and playing catchup and reading this all behind the 
    times.  How exciting!
    
    CQ

I'm so glad this note string exists.  Without it, I would probably have missed
Sandy's 1019.21.

      Wow.

        Carol

    15.1111
    
    as The Great One said, "What a cuppa coffee!"

>    15.1111    (by Dan Kalikow)

	Indeed!



	>>AL<<

    
    by the inimitable sandy ciccolini.
    THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT FOLKS.
    take heed!

    I would like to nominate every note I have ever written to the Hall of
    Fame.  My notes are typically brilliant, inevitably well-written, often
    witty, and always thoughtful and provocative.  Collectively they form a
    body of work that has consistently provided a positive contribution to
    this notes conference.  I never fail to be impressed by the quality of
    my notes.  I thank me for my contributions, and I urge me to keep up
    the good work.
    
    -- Mike

re: .84

 Mods, perhaps this belongs in "Feminist Humor." :-)

 The Doctah

    Please reserve this topic for mentioning individual replies and their
    authors which you feel particularly lucid, clear, enlightening,
    eye-opening, thought-provoking, and otherwise outstanding.
    
    Thank you
    
    -Jody
    

1053.11 by Sandy Ciccolini, on fetal rights, competition, misdirection by
the government and misplaced concern by everyone, and the right way to help
people succeed.

Right on the money!

D!

Eric's 1071.0 (of blessed memory).

The introduction explains quite a bit about who he is and what his
motivations are, something he tells us he does not feel is relevant,
but is willing to share anyways.

The section describing sexism in Womannotes is long overdue.  This is not
to say that I fully agree with his claims, or would make them in quite so
strong or absolute a fashion, but it seems fairly clear to me that many
(but clearly not all) of the participants here have held male participants
to a different standard than females.

In one of the replies in the processing note, Maggie used the quote
"sometimes circumstantial evidence is very convincing, as when one
finds a live trout in the milk" to describe Eric's actions in Womannotes.
As I recall, that is a quote from Henry Thoreau, giving it perhaps more
meaning than she intended.

It takes a lot of guts to go against the stream, whether one is
Don Quixote, Henry Thoreau, or Martin Luther King, and Eric deserves
praise for demanding that the participants in Womannotes confront
their own sexism.

Martin.

    
    	Note 1072.2 (also hidden) - a simple, eloquent reminder that
    	including a long, harsh analysis of a named individual in a 
    	basenote goes FAR beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior in 
    	a Digital notesfile (regardless of how passionate any of us 
    	feels on the various issues being discussed.)
    
    	Considering the fact that the demands imposed by edp in 1071.0
    	were couched in the protective wrappings of a "Supportive
    	Responses Only" topic (and that his text ALSO demanded that his
    	stated absolutes be considered beyond the reach of discussion or 
    	debate of any kind,) it took a great deal of writing talent to make 
    	a strong enough case in the FGD string to illustrate the difficulties
    	involved with the way 1071.0 was presented.
    
    	This was done in less than the length of a single page, as I recall.
    
    	Thank you, and brava!

    
    This topic is NOT for discussing issues.  Please keep your nominations
    for the hall of fame short, positive, to the point and as
    nonconfrontative as possible.  Issues can be discussed elsewhere
    (including the processing topic).
    
    -Jody
    

>         <<< Note 8.91 by BOLT::MINOW "Gregor Samsa, please wake up" >>>
>
>Eric's 1071.0 (of blessed memory).
	 
	 
         Seconded.

	 The note was forwarded to me and moved me enough to re-add
	 this conference to my Notebook.

	 Only to find it set hidden.

	 Thanks, edp.....

	 kath

1076.28, by John Heffernan.

    1076.35, by Brian Hetrick
    

    SandieD's eloquent counterpoint to stereotype.