Conference turris::womannotes-v2

    I'm attending a two-year Comm. College and my understanding is 
    that the credits earned towards an Associates will be transferred
    as a block towards a Bachelors, if certain 'core' study
    requirements are met. 
    
    (This is in Mass., don't know if same holds true elsewhere)
    
    Dana

    Check into the types of jobs you're interested in; they often have
    some kinds of qualifications.  I believe you can qualify for a Software
    Specialist I with an associates, I don't know about engineering.
    
    Re: the curriculum
    
    I'd need a better description of "Computer Programming I."  It might
    be better to get a more solid background in 3gl programming before
    getting into assembly language programming.  (But then, I was never
    really fond of assembly language.)  I also object to the FORTRAN
    programming course just because I dislike the idea of "Programming
    in <language>" courses; however, they're pretty standard at most
    four-year colleges.

	I too second the "go for a four year degree" opinion...

	Tuition costs shouldn't be prohibitive, DEC will pick up the tab...

	If admittance is the problem, have your friend talk to the school
	she'd like to go to for a four year degree, they will usually do
	one of three things... 1. accept her on a probationary basis (till she
	proves herself)  2.  ask her to attend a few classes through the
	continuing ed division of the school and reapply... or 3.  recommend 
	core courses for her to take at another school to transfer.

	re: transfering and the Mass. Compact

	In Mass, if you complete two years and a bunch of requirements, you
	can transfer to any Mass state school and they have to accept you.
	They don't have to accept your courses however!  I attended class at
	ULowell for a brief while, and knew many students who had taken an
	equivalent course at another Mass school but had to retake it at
	ULowell because ULowell claimed "the course was not as rigourous
	as it is here, just not up to our standards".  The Mass compact will
	get you admitted, but you may wind up having to retake courses...

	The above holds true for transferring to any college....(possibility
	of loosing ground)

	If she obtains a two year degree and the tries for a four year in
	another school, she may not have met some of the requirements to take
	the higher level courses, which would force her to fall behind.
	For example, at UNH CS501C (programming in C)is a prereq for everything
	so if she were to transfer to UNH, she would have to take that before
	she could take any of the upper level courses...

	She should also be very careful when looking at potential programs of
	study...  There is a great difference between Computer Science and
	Computer Information Studies...

	In CS there is much more emphasis on the concepts, and you are exposed
	to a great deal of different programming environments and languages.

	CIS appears to be more focused upon using computers in business and 
	you are exposed to a typical business environment.  (things like
	COBOL...)

	She should also talk to a few hiring managers about what they look
	for in candidates....  (I don't know how far an Assoc will go...)


						Just my opinion,

							-sjk

    My husband went to ULowell nights.  He already had an associates
    degree, but Lowell accepted very few of his credits.  
    
    Lowell does offer associates degrees, as well as bachelors, so
    that "on the way" to his BS, Paul received an AS from them.  This
    may be a good alternative.  If she decides not to "go all the way,"
    she still has a degree from a respected school and, even if she does 
    go on, it provides a closer goal (since a four-year degree at night
    can easily take 8+ years).  If she goes on for the BS, she's already
    half-way there without danger of losing credit for courses taken.
    
    -Tracy
                      

    You friend could easily get an associate programmers job after
    she finishes provided the following:
      a. Computer Programming was a popular language such as
    Cobol (80% of business applications are written in Cobol)
    or some 4gl (as mentioned in a previous note.
      b. Data Structures also encompasses database management
      c. Intro to PC's has some backbone with learning msdos,unix,etc
    
    She may also be qualified for data center positions.
    
    Does anyone remember the ptp program? If she could get the ciriculum
    for that,and apply it to schools she is considering,she should have
    no trouble being qualified for an entry level position in programming.
    
    I have had one ptp programmer on my staff in the past,and must
    say he was excellent.
    
    If you want a quicker turn around time to become a programmer
    you may want to try 1 year intensive programming institutes
    (just to get into the field) and then go back to college nights
    to get your degree. 
    
    Good Luck! 
    Jane

    I agree with most of the others that an associates degree from a
    community college just doesn't cut it.  When I winnowed out
    resumes for software engineering entry level positions
    I looked for good GPAs from "name" colleges: MIT, Cornell, 
    Rice, etc.  A community college degree with PC programming and
    "Keyboarding" isn't that impressive.  

    Some computer-related courses that I would look for in a resume:

    	Programming I (learn Pascal, C, or some other high level language)
    	Assembly Language (learn what self-modifying code is :-)
        Data Structures (arrays, linked lists, records, etc.)
    	Data Bases (COBOL, indexes, trees, data management)
        Some operating system, compiler, logic, or computational theory courses

    After you've learned one high-level programming language  in college,
    you shouldn't have to take a separate full semester course to pick up a
    new one.  Thus having a semester of FORTRAN, two semesters of Computer
    Systems Programming, and two semesters of Assembly would make me think
    that the amount learned per semester is a bit light.
      
    An associates degree from a community college will get you data-entry
    and small applications work, probably outside of Digital.  The first
    two years of a solid 4 year program plus some extra-curricular DEC
    specific work will probably qualify you for co-op level software
    engineering work within Digital (Associate Software Engineer).  A
    graduate with a BS usually enters in as a Software Engineer I.

    As for the problem of justifying the courses to begin with, if  your
    manager isn't keen about it maybe you can get some help from personnel. 
    This could be considered a career-related course.  Beware,
    career-related means tuition reimbursement is a taxable benefit and you
    pay the taxes out of your pocket.  Right now it costs me $250+ per
    course to go to UMASS for my masters in Engineering Management.  

    Getting away from associates versus bachelors, and into job-getting
    information. A good extra-curricular history makes a resume stand out. 
    If you've worked with DEC equipment on a "real programming job", this
    sets you apart from the run-of-the-mill college graduate that sends
    their resume into DEC (there are lots of them).  Being able to say that
    you worked on an interesting programming problem, such as creating an 
    application or a utility, in the "real world" helps a lot.  

    Already being a DEC employee has its advantages and disadvantages.
    The disadvantage is that you aren't a new college hire, so you can't
    come in on one of those reqs.  The advantage is that you are an
    internal hire.  You can read notesfiles and find out about what
    areas of software engineering you are interested in, field test
    products and give feed back.  Use DEC computers to expand your
    knowledge of programming.  Go to the library to look over documentation
    and software reviews.  You can learn buzzwords to add to your
    resume and interviews.  To be honest, it is very hard to gauge
    the knowledge level of an entry-level programmer based on a
    1 page resume and a half-hour interview.  Knowing buzzwords and
    using them properly is a plus.

    			Barbara b.

    Barbara,
    
    Thank you for entering a hit of reality. So many times I read about
    people struggling to finish their Assoc. degree or BS. Degree from
    a small school. I think you did a fine job outlining the reality
    of the situation. One point is that I think being a DEC employee
    becomes a handicap when it comes to moving out of a low leveled
    job. 
    
    My roomie is finishing her MBA in August, she is a secretary here
    at DEC. She will never find the support to get lifted out of her
    current job code into a more appropriate one. If she were an outside
    candidate, with her years of DEC knowledge/experience she would have
    an easier time getting in. of course the current hiring constraints
    changes that theory also. 
    
    I think it is a severe problem that overqualified/over educated
    people have been hired into positions for the sake of filling thoe
    jobs (short sighted goles). There is no mechanism in place to allow
    those people to jump levels to be realigned into more suitable
    position. In frustration many people leave DEC, others don't realize
    that leaving is there only solution and spend a few extra years
    here hoping the problem will resolve itself. It doesn't. I don't
    have statistics to back this up, but I beleive that a great percentage
    of these people are women.

   Gail

    I agree that Barbara hit on some good points.  One of those was
    that working knowledge and experience with DEC hardware and software
    will make it easier to connect with a good job and there's a avenue
    you may have available to you that's not real well known.  There
    are a number of computer-based and computer-aided self-paced courses
    in both hardware and software.  A sampling of course titles includes
    "VAX Concepts", "Intro. to VAX/VMS", "Utilities and Commands", a
    series of several cbi's and cai's ranging from "Intro. to VAX/VMS
    System Operation" through "VAXCluster Management", a number of
    languages including BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL, and C, a series on data
    communcations and networks, a series on workstations, and other
    miscellaneous topics.
    
    Self-paced instruction isn't everyone's cup of tea, but if you'd
    like more information, please contact me via mail.
    
    Steve

    Gail,
    
    You've hit upon an issue that I'm currently struggling with.  I'm
    one of the support people who has a master's degree and is wondering
    how to get *out* of wage class 2.  With the current situation, it
    has become even more difficult, and I'm trying to look objectively
    at options, wondering if DEC offers me the opportunities I once
    thought it did.
    
    What do I do to bridge that gap?
    
    Judi
    

One thing that might help, if you have a specific group or job in mind, is to
find a mentor who's been in the desired group/job before (of course, the more
senior, the better). They can help you through a lot of the local
idiosyncracies (or politics). They can say what the _real_ requirements are.
	Mez

    
     No matter how good you are in logic/problem-solving situations....
    (ie: Programming)...You'll find a GREAT difference in the type of
    person who interviews you...depending on the quality::type of company
    you try..or should I say....receive an opportunity to interview
    with.  You may have great talent for programming...but if your
    educational background doesn't match the IDEAL "MODEL" that a company
    wants....see ya later........while at the same time...if you meet
    another person..possibly in the Same department..with more insight..
    and he knows what questions to ask...to get around the "Advertisement"
    bull that many people spill during an interview.....you can land
    anything <--- Whew%*$#^& that was all one sentence@%%@#^*^.
     The great thing about programming is that...if you are GOOD...you
    can find work..Good Paying work ON THE SIDE (PT) that eventually
    might lead into a full-time position..
    
    Best of Luck,
    
    Stephen P.
    

    re-.2 and others who have the "just got the degree and want to move
          up but can't blues".  It is not a female only phenomenon.
          This is how it was explained to me (by a former manager who
          was female): When you come to DEC, a spot/position/salary
          plan is attached to you. The problem comes when you want a
          position that pays significantly more than your current salary.
          Your salary plan follows you, and it works like this: Say
          I'm a sanitary engineer (janitor) at DEC and I make $4000 a year.
          I go to school at night and graduate from MIT with a degree
          in EE and Mathematics(double major), and with a 4.0 GPA. 
          I see an engineering position open up ( WHICH I AM COMPLETELY 
          QUALIFIED FOR ) that pays $40,000 a year, and I apply for it. 
          Do I have a chance of getting it? PROBABLY NOT!! WHY? BECAUSE
          AT DEC, YOUR SALARY PLAN FOLLOWS YOU. THE HIRING MANAGER WOULD
          HAVE TO BE WILLING TO RAISE YOUR CURRENT SALARY FROM $4K TO
          $40K. THIS MONEY WOULD HAVE TO COME FROM WHAT HE IS CURRENTLY
          ALLOTTED, WHICH MEANS THAT HE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE $36K FROM
          HIS CURRENT SALARY PLANNING TO GIVE TO YOU. THIS MEANS THAT
          NO ONE ELSE IN HIS UNIT WOULD GET RAISES. 
    
          However, if you were a new hire, the $40K would come from
          personel, and would not affect the hiring managers' current
          employees. The hiring manager has incentive NOT to hire you. 
          This mechanism is a way of controlling the person who "just
          wants to get his foot in the door at DEC", and who will take
          any job available to do it. 
          It is completely unfair to DEC employees who work hard and
          complete a B.S. in night school. DEC offers NO reward
          (reward = opportunity, chance, what_have_you to move up).
    
          What we need is a personel-type person to chime in and give
          us an official explanation/guidance towards moving up when
          we, male and female, spend our time/brains/money to better
          ourselves.
    
          Doug 
       

    >          employees. The hiring manager has incentive NOT to hire you. 
    >      This mechanism is a way of controlling the person who "just
    >      wants to get his foot in the door at DEC", and who will take
    >      any job available to do it. 
    >      It is completely unfair to DEC employees who work hard and
    >      complete a B.S. in night school. DEC offers NO reward
    >      (reward = opportunity, chance, what_have_you to move up).
    
    
    Doug you hit a upon a crutial point. There is a HUGE Catch-22 going
    on here. Recruiters have traditionally encouraged people to take
    "foot in the door" jobs. It is a short term gain for them (gets
    the job filled) it is a long term problem for DEC. That person is
    a bad hire. I am a bad hire. Not because I am not a good worker,
    on the contrary, I am overqualified for my job code. 
    
    So what does DEC do about this? They encourage you to continue your
    education (but mine was complete when I started!) and take courses
    to move your way into the next slot up. But they have no solution
    for you if the next slot up is about 2 steps short of where you
    should be. If you're ambitious enough you are not going to want
    to "pay you dues" for 3-4 years just to get to where you should
    rightfully be today.

    I really feel for the well intentioned people that are bettering
    themselves through education. Education in and of itself will never
    be wasted. Unfortunately at DEC it is not going to be rewarded.
    
    My usual bit of advice to DEC & nonDECies in the education mode, is that
    DEC may not be the answer to everyones career needs. Sometimes I
    am afraid that I may well have to listen to my own advice. 
    
    I really wish I had something encouraging to add, but I see this
    all to close to me as I sit in my seat in employment. I hope I have
    made my own brake by getting involved with AHOD. A system as huge
    as DEC shouldn't run soley on luck/breaks.
    
    Gail 

re: .14

The "salary plan has tied my hands" excuse is a common one from 
managers who do not wish to fight for decent compensation for their 
employees.  It is certainly difficult to get what you are worth, but do 
not resign yourself that nothing can be done.

As someone who started off in this company as a very cheap hire, I have 
had managers of all kinds: ones who felt they were getting a good 
deal cheap and intended to keep it that way, to ones like Dave Cutler 
who dropped a totally unplanned raise on my desk one day because the 
amount of money I was making was shameful.  Some managers have more 
power than others when it comes to making these kinds of things happen, 
of course, and some have more guts.  True, a manager is handing out raises 
from a pot of money that needs to be distributed over their whole group 
and that must stay within guidelines for overall percentage increase.
However, if you get a job planned for a $40k salary, that limitation 
isn't stopping the manager from giving it to you.  There is also a 
movement afoot to achieve pay equity in this company, and special funds 
available to a manager who needs it.

It's a tough battle, and one that women (who tend to undervalue
themselves) can have a tough time fighting.  Don't give up, though.
In these tough times there may be more opportunities opening up for 
folks within the system.  And if you decide you must leave in order to 
better yourself, give Digital your thanks and regrets and feel confident 
doing it.  It is decidedly Digital's loss.

    re: .16...
    
    I did not mean to imply that the money literally comes from 
    Personel, but that the money comes with the job requisition for
    a new hire. It is "added" for the new hire rather than "substituted"
    for the transferee. I agree that for one year there will be a 
    $36k variant in favor for the hiring manager, but where will the
    money come from when the employee has to brought to $40k at the
    end of the first year? I believe, perhaps incorrectly, that it comes
    from the pool of money that the hiring manager has available for
    raises for his unit for the next year. Thus, this is a bias for
    NOT hiring the transferee. 
    I did not mean to imply that salary planning is a means of controlling
    transfers at DEC. It is not. Salary planning is a necessary means
    of planning employee raises. Salary planning is a necessary means
    of ensuring that employees are equitably compensated. Salary plans,
    though, have a SIDE EFFECT of limiting the employee who SUDDENLY
    becomes QUALIFIED for a higher paying job. (They also prevent people
    who are qualified for higher paying jobs  to get their foot in the
    door by accepting a lesser job). 

	Back to the original topic.

	I have worked my way up (?) from a Department Coordinator III to
	a Software Engineer II in just about 8 years.  I came to this 
	company with a liberal arts degree (BA) and two computer programming
	courses.  I did the BU Metro College thing and completed the
	course requirements for a BS in Computer Science (I think that was
	it) but BU wanted me to take the electives as well and would not
	take my credits from ULowell as the electives so I never got the
	second degree.

	I found the courses at BU Metro were not terribly useful - the
	work I did at DEC during those years was much more helpful.  I
	took every course I could through EdServices and did a couple of
	self-paced things, I even did training for others in my groups.

	From my experience I feel that it is much more important to DO
	computer programming/problem solving then it is to take courses
	and study the concepts.  If you can't implement the concepts in
	the real world then you may be wasting your time and money.

	I would ask "What kinds of projects will the program offer for
	me to work on to use what I am learning?"  "What is the status
	of the professor/instuctors of the course I will be taking, what
	is their background; is it all academic or have they done "real
	world" work; are they just textbook junkies?" "What is the career
	development/job placement of graduates of the program?" and most
	important "What is it that attacts me to this particular program?"

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |

			If you are doing something that you like to do
			and that you are good at, then you will be more
			sucessful then if you just do it for status.

                                           
    Since there's been some discussion in here about leaving DEC for
    better opportunities, I guess this is a semi-appropriate place to
    let folks know I'm doing just that.
    
    I've accepted an excellent position with an electronics company
    in Manchester, NH -- I start Monday.  I'm very enthusiastic about
    this opportunity, which is an excellent one for me.
    
    Just want to say I've enjoyed =wn= thoroughly, and I'm glad I had
    the chance to meet some of you.  This is certainly one aspect of
    DEC I'll miss -- the =wn= community is a great resource and support
    system.
    
    A fond farewell to DEC and the Women (and Men) of Note!
    
                              ...Lisa V...
                                           
    

    Congrats, Lisa...but we'll miss you!  I'm glad I got to meet you, at
    least.
    
    						=maggie