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Conference turris::womannotes-v2

Title:ARCHIVE-- Topics of Interest to Women, Volume 2 --ARCHIVE
Notice:V2 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open.
Moderator:REGENT::BROOMHEAD
Created:Thu Jan 30 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 30 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1105
Total number of notes:36379

151.0. "Meaning of symbols" by VAXRT::CANNOY (Convictions cause convicts.) Wed Aug 31 1988 15:21

         This is something that has sort of been niggling at me
         lately. It's not that big a deal, it's just something I find
         annoying/unthinking/mildly disturbing.

         I am (all of the above mixed feelings) about the apparent
         usage and acceptance of the labrys symbol as a symbol which
         means "I am a lesbian."

         Background info: The labrys is a double headed ax found on
         Crete and is one of the main symbols in the Minoan and
         pre-Minoan cultures, along with the bull, of their worship of
         the Goddess.

         Now the reason I feel annoyed/irritated at times about this,
         is because I am a neo-pagan, and the labrys is a very
         religious symbol for me. I guess I feel very much the same
         way very religious Christians must feel at the fact that the
         cross symbol has become a "must-have" piece of jewelry for
         punk rockers and bikers, etc.

         Now it's not a super big deal because I understand the need
         for a woman identified symbol for lesbians. But there are
         times when I wish someone else's religious symbol had been
         chosen. ;-)

         It's not going to stop me from wearing a labrys, or anything.
         It's an annoyance I can live with. And of course, neo-pagan
         lesbians (and there are lots of them, luckily) are exempt
         from my annoyance because they know what they're doing.

         This isn't even a big enough deal to call a pet peeve. I
         guess I just find it disrespectful. Am I getting conservative
         in my old age?

         Tamzen
    
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151.1News to me...PRYDE::ERVINWed Aug 31 1988 15:4510
    I guess I, for one, didn't realize that lesbians were using the
    labrys for a 'lesbian' symbol.  I, for one, have always worn the
    labrys to represent my connection with Goddess worship.
    
    I thought that the hands triangle was the international symbol for
    lesbians.  And, in fact, I know a heck of alot of lesbians that
    would never wear a labrys.   But I object to the christian cross
    because that is just another rip-off of the original symbol of the
    labrys.                                               
    
151.2trying to catch a clueTOLKIN::DINANWed Aug 31 1988 16:0412
    
    
    re: 1 & 2
    
        was wondering what exactly is a Neo-Pagan?
    
        and what is Godess whorship?  My uninformed guess is that
    it is a reaction to God being represented as Male in most
    religions/cultures.
    
    
    Bob
151.3A brief overviewVAXRT::CANNOYConvictions cause convicts.Wed Aug 31 1988 16:2569
    Below is something I wrote a while ago on Goddess worship for another
    conference. I'll try to tackle Neo-paganism later, but anyone else
    who wants to take a shot at that one is more than welcome. 

    Wherever it says Witchcraft you can trasnlate: Wicca or Goddess
    worship.
    
    ************************************************************************    
    
    The Old Religion, The Craft, Witchcraft: all names for Goddess worship. 

    Basically Goddess worship is a celebration of the mysteries of the Triple
    Goddess of birth, love, and death (Maiden, Mother, Crone) and her
    Consort, the Horned God, Lord of the Dance. 

    Some claim this religion has existed for 35,000 years, starting in
    Europe around the time of the Great Ice Age. It is very closely related
    to shamanism. It has no dogmas, nor scriptures, nor fixed set of
    beliefs. 

    Witchcraft takes its teachings from nature; the movements of the sun
    and moon, the growth of trees, the cycles of the seasons. Witchcraft is
    a religion of poetry, metaphor and mystery rather than theology and
    dogma. 

    The mysteries of the the absolute cannot be explained or told, they can
    only be felt or known intuitively. Inner knowledge literally cannot be
    expressed in words, each experience gives different insight to each
    person who has that experience. 

    The Goddess _is_ everything. She is not separate from this world, but
    part of each thing: sun, moon, rivers, trees, birds, animals and
    people. Flesh and spirit are one. 

    One thing which is very important is that the Goddess _does not_ RULE
    the world, She is the world. Finding the harmony between yourself and
    every other living and non-living thing is what the Craft IS. 

    Celebrating creation and creativity, fertility, femininity, sexuality,
    life and one's self is worshiping the Goddess. 

    All things are interrelated and and interdependent and mutually
    responsible for one another. Justice is not something which can be
    administered by an outside force. Each person must be responsible for
    her own actions. "What you send, returns three times over" is the same
    way, only stronger, of saying "Do unto others, as you would have them
    do unto you". 

    The Goddess loves diversity, not conformity. Oneness is found thru
    realizing the self fully, not denying it or trying to lose it in
    something else. 

    The Craft has many, many traditions, some new, some very old. Some
    follow traditions handed down since the middle ages, some traditions
    are from modern revivals, some create their own traditions. Each is as
    valid as any other. 

    "Honor the Goddess in yourself, celebrate your self, and you will see
    that Self is everywhere." 

    ************************************************************************
    

    Most of the above I paraphrased from _The_Spiral_Dance_ by Starhawk. A
    lot of it is also expressed in _The_White_Goddess_ by Robert Graves.
    Another excellent version is found in Marion Zimmer Bradley's
    _Mists_of_Avalon_. 
    
                      
151.4do Gods sexual problems?TOLKIN::DINANWed Aug 31 1988 16:5714
    
    
    From that explanation, it sounds like Goddess whorship is attaching
    a female persona to the philosophy of Tao.  or perhaps, since you
    say this may go back 35,000 years, Tao simply neutered the Goddess.
    Personally, i've never understood why religions always feel they
    have to give their god (or gods/goddesses) a particular gender.
    Most religions i've heard of say that the higher power(s) cannot
    be understood through rational means and yet they understand
    that it is of a particular gender.   also, i don't understand
    why "they" try to explain their religion with rational argument
    when intuition (lack of rationality) is what they say is needed.
    
    Bob
151.5VAXRT::CANNOYConvictions cause convicts.Wed Aug 31 1988 17:027
    Yes, in my view point anyway, Taoism and worshiping the Goddess
    are much one and the same. I think the personifications came about
    for ease of personal identification. You have to admit the concept
    of the Tao is very hard for a lot of people to even get a handle
    on, let alone relate to.
    
    Tamzen
151.6back to symbolsTOLKIN::DINANWed Aug 31 1988 17:0614
    
    getting back to the matter of symbols --
        symbols are always going to change meaning and will always be
    attached to the group getting the most publicity.
         example -- the swastika which has come to mean the nazi
    party to almost everyone.  a symbol of prejudice and hatred,
    but from what i remember it was originally an ancient oriental
    symbol representing the power of the sun or maybe the rising
    sun and held connotations of benevolence, nurturing, and strength.
    
    Bob
    
    p.s. the title on .4 should have read "do gods have sexual problems?"
    
151.7Is There A Hidden Meaning?FDCV16::ROSSWed Aug 31 1988 17:248
    RE: .6
    
    Bob, in both your .2 and .4 replies, you use the word "whorship".
    
    It's probably a typo; yet, I couldn't but help wonder if there
    were some subtle play on words there.
    
      Alan  
151.8i'm not that smart....TOLKIN::DINANWed Aug 31 1988 17:426
    
    
    sorry,  if it was a play on words it was unconscious.  hope
    there are no Freudians out there.
    
    Bob
151.9AKOV11::BOYAJIANWed Aug 31 1988 18:337
    re:.1
    
    If the Christian cross symbol is "just a rip-off of the original
    labrys symbol", it's just coincidental. It's intended to symbolize
    the Crucifiction of Christ.
    
    --- jerry
151.10now that you've mentioned it...PRYDE::ERVINWed Aug 31 1988 18:4110
    re: .2
    
    Actually, God worship is a reaction to religions/cultures that used
    to worship a female deity.  The conversion from Goddess worship
    to God worship was a violent crusade and Ireland was a strong hold-out
    for continuing their practice of relating to a female deity.  Ireland's
    conversion was completed by giving them the virgin Mary, a female,
    pseudo-god figure to worship...in case you've ever wondered why
    the Irish, as a nation, are extremely devote to Mary.
     
151.11somethings can be fixedCVG::THOMPSONBasically a Happy CamperWed Aug 31 1988 19:346
.6>    p.s. the title on .4 should have read "do gods have sexual problems?"

    You can change titles of notes you've written by using the command
    SET NOTE/TITLE="clever new title"
    
    			Alfred    
151.12Irelands ConversionPCCAD1::RICHARDJBluegrass,Music Aged to PerfectionWed Aug 31 1988 19:397
    re:10
    I don't think so. Ireland's conversion to Christianity would have
    brought the teachings of Jesus Christ in which He talk of God as
    His and our Father. The virgin Marry was not thought of and never
    was thought of as a god.

    Jim
151.13It happened quite a lotWMOIS::B_REINKEAs true as water, as true as lightWed Aug 31 1988 20:227
    the worship of the Virgin Mary was frequently introduced by
    missionaries to help convert cultures that had a tradtional
    strong female goddess. Similarly the nativity of Christ began
    to be celebrated in late December to compete with/replace
    the winter solistic celebrations in the Germanic countries.
    
    Bonnie
151.15COGMK::CHELSEAMostly harmless.Wed Aug 31 1988 21:044
    Re: .12
    
    While she's not thought of as a god, the Virgin is an extremely
    prominent figure for many cultures, particularly Hispanic ones.
151.16Neopaganism info from USENETMOIRA::FAIMANA goblet, a goblet, yea, even a hoopThu Sep 01 1988 12:32345
    I snagged this off the USENET last year.  It has a lot of
    interesting material about neopaganism.  Take all details 
    with a grain of salt. 
    
    	-Neil
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    
Newsgroups: rec.nude,talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
Path: decwrl!decvax!ucbvax!ucbcad!ames!lll-tis!mordor!sri-spam!rutgers!cbmvax!snark!eric
Subject: Answer to requests for neopaganism info
Posted: 6 Oct 87 17:53:08 GMT
Organization: Willam Claude Dukenfield Discordian Cabal
 
Xref: decwrl rec.nude:655 talk.religion.misc:5141 talk.religion.newage:1639
 
This posting responds to a deluge of email replies to my 'Notes from a Neopagan
Nudist' article from people looking for more information. I have cross-posted
to the religion groups for obvious reasons.
 
I. Introduction
     The neopagan phenomenon is a loose collection of religious movements,
experiments and jokes that offers a healthy alternative to the dogmatism of
the Judeo/Christian/Islamic mainstream (on the one hand) and the mushy-
mindedness of most 'New Age' groups (on the other).
 
     This article, prepared at the request of a number of curious net.posters,
offers a brief description of neopagan thought and practice. A list of good
sources for further study are listed at the end.
 
II. What is a neopagan?
     I used the term 'religious' above, but as you'll see it's actually more
than somewhat misleading, and I (like many other neopagans) use it only because
no other word is available for the more general kind of thing of which the
neopagan movement and what we generally think of as 'religion' are special
cases.
 
     Neopaganism is 'religious' in the etymological sense of 're ligare', to
rebind (to roots, to strengths, to the basics of things), and it deals with
mythology and the realm of the 'spiritual'. But, as we in the Judeo/Christian
West have come to understand 'religion' (an organized body of belief that
connects the 'supernatural' with an authoritarian moral code via 'faith')
neopaganism is effectively and radically anti-religious. I emphasize this
because it is important in understanding what follows.
 
     Common characteristics of almost all the groups that describe themselves
as 'neopagan' (the term is often capitalized) include:
 
1. Anti-dogmatism
     Neopagan religions are religions of practice, pragmatism and immediate
experience. The emphasis is always on what they can help the individuals in
them to *do* and *experience*; theology and metaphysics take a back seat, and
very little 'faith' or 'belief' is required or expected. In fact many neopagans
(including yours truly) are actively hostile to 'faith' and all the related
ideas of religious authority, 'divine revelation' and the like.
 
2. Compatibility with a scientific world-view
    This tends to follow from the above. Because neopaganism is centered in
experiences rather than beliefs, it doesn't need or want to do vast overarching
cosmologies or push fixed Final Answers to the Big Questions -- understanding
and helping human beings relate to each other and the world as we experience
it is quite enough for us. Thus, we are generally friendly to science and the
scientific world-view. Many of us are scientists and technologists ourselve
(in fact, by some counts, a plurality of us are computer programmers!).
 
3. Reverence for nature, sensuality, and pleasure
    Most neopaganisms make heavy use of nature symbolism and encourage people
to be more aware of their ties to all the non-human life on this planet.
Explicit worship of 'Gaia', the earth ecosphere considered as a single
interdependent unit, is common. Veneration of nature dieties is central to
many traditions. Ecological activism is often considered a religious duty,
though there is much controversy over what form it should take.
 
    By preference, most neopagans hold their ceremonies outdoors under sun
or moon. Seasonal changes and astronomical rhythms (especially the solstices,
equinoxes and full and new moons) define the ritual calendar.
 
    Ritual and festive nudity are common; to be naked before nature is often
considered a holy and integrating act in itself. Sex is considered sacramental
and sexual energy and symbolisms permeate neopagan practice (we like to
contrast this with Christianity, in which the central sacrament commemorates
a murder and climaxes in ritual cannibalism).
 
4. Polytheism, pantheism, agnosticism
    Most neopaganisms are explicitly polytheistic -- that is, they recognize
pantheons of multiple dieties. But the reality behind this is more complex
than it might appear.
 
    First, many neopagans are philosophical agnostics or even atheists; there
is a tendency to regard 'the gods' as Jungian archetypes or otherwise in some
sense created by and dependent on human belief, and thus naturally plural and
observer-dependent.
 
    Secondly, as in many historical polytheisms, there is an implicit though
seldom-discussed idea that all the gods and goddesses we deal with are
'masks', refractions of some underlying unity that we cannot or should not
attempt to approach directly.
 
    And thirdly, there is a strong undercurrent of pantheism, the belief that
the entire universe is in some important sense a responsive, resonating and
sacred whole (or, which is different and subtler, that it is proper for
human beings to view it that way).
 
    Many neopagans hold all three of these beliefs simultaneously.
 
5. Decentralized, non-authoritarian organization; no priestly elite
    Neopagans have seen what happens when a priesthood elite gets temporal
power; we want none of that. We do not take collections, build temples, or
fund a full-time clergy. In fact the clergy-laity distinction is pretty soft;
in many traditions, all members are considered 'in training' for it, and in
all traditions every participant in a ritual is an active one; there are and
can be no pew-sitting passive observers.
 
    Most neopagan traditions are (dis)organized as horizontal networks of
small affinity groups (usually called 'circles', 'groves', or 'covens'
depending on the flavor of neopagan involved). Priests and priestesses
have no real authority outside their own circles (and sometimes not much
inside them!), though some do have national reputations.
 
    Many of us keep a low profile partly due to a real fear of persecution. Too
many of our spiritual ancestors were burned, hung, flayed and shot by religions
that are still powerful for a lot of us to feel safe in the open. Down in the
Bible Belt the burnings and beatings are still going on, and the media loves
to hang that 'Satanist' label on anything it doesn't understand for a good
juicy story.
 
    Also, we never prosyletize. This posting is about as active a neopagan
solicitation as anyone will ever see; we tend to believe that 'converts' are
dangerous robots and that people looking to be 'converted' aren't the kind we
want. We have found that it works quite well enough to let people find us
when they're ready for what we have to teach.
 
6. Reverence for the female principle
    One of the most striking differences between neopagan groups and the
religious mainstream is the wide prevalence (and in some traditions dominance)
of the worship of goddesses. Almost all neopagans revere some form of the
Great Mother, often as a nature goddess identified with the ecosphere, and
there are probably more female neopagan clergy than there are male.
 
    Most neopagan traditions are equalist (these tend to pair the Great
Mother with a male fertility-god, usually some cognate of the Greek Pan).
A vocal and influential minority are actively feminist, and (especially on
the West Coast) there have been attempts to present various neopagan traditions
as the natural 'women's religion' for the feminist movement. The effects of
this kind of politicization of neopaganism are a topic of intense debate within
the movement and fuel some of its deepest factional divisions.
 
7. Respect for art and creativity
    Neopaganism tends to attract artists and musicians as much as it attracts
technologists. Our myth and ritual can be very powerful at stimulating and
releasing creativity, and one of the greatest strengths of the movement is the
rich outgrowth of music, poetry, crafts and arts that has come from that.
It is quite common for people joining the movement to discover real talents in
those areas that they never suspected.
 
    Poets and musicians have the kind of special place at neopagan festivals
that they did in pre-literate cultures; many of our best-known people are or
have been bards and songsmiths, and the ability to compose and improvise
good ritual poetry is considered the mark of a gifted priest(ess) and very
highly respected.
 
8. Eclecticism
    "Steal from any source that doesn't run too fast" is a neopagan motto.
A typical neopagan group will mix Greek, Celtic and Egyptian mythology with
American Indian shamanism. Ritual technique includes recognizable borrowings
from medieval ceremonial magic, Freemasonry and pre-Nicene Christianity, as
well as a bunch of 20th-century inventions. Humanistic psychology and some
of the more replicable New Age healing techniques have recently been
influential. The resulting stew is lively and effective, though sometimes a
bit hard to hold together.
 
9. A sense of humor
    Neopagans generally believe that it is more dangerous to take your
religion too seriously than too lightly. Self-spoofery is frequent and (in
some traditions) semi-institutionalized, and at least one major neopagan
tradition (Discordianism, known to many on this net) is *founded* on elaborate
spoofery and started out as a joke.
 
    One of the most attractive features of the neopagan approach is that we
don't confuse solemnity with gloom. Our rituals are generally celebratory and
joyous, and a humorous remark at the right time need not break the mood.
 
    We generally feel that any religion that can't stand to have fun poked
at it is in as sad shape as the corresponding kind of person.
 
III. What kinds of neopagan are there, and where did they come from?
     Depending on who you talk to and what definitions you use, there are
between 40,000 and 200,000 neopagans in the U.S.; the true figure is probably
closer to the latter than the former, and the movement is still growing rapidly
following a major 'population explosion' in the late '70s.
 
     The numerically largest and most influential neopagan group is the
'Kingdom of Wicca' -- the modern witch covens. Modern witchcraft has nothing
to do with Hollywood's images of the cackling, cauldron-stirring crone (though
Wiccans sometimes joke about that one) and is actively opposed to the
psychopathic Satanism that many Christians erroneously think of as
'witchcraft'. Your author is an initiate Wiccan priest and coven leader of long
standing.
 
     Other important subgroups include those seeking to revive Norse, Egyptian,
Amerind, and various kinds of tribal pantheons other than the Greek and Celtic
ones that have been incorporated into Wicca. These generally started out as
Wiccan offshoots or have been so heavily influenced by Wiccan ritual technique
that their people can usually work comfortably in a Wiccan circle and vice-
versa.
 
     There are also the various orders of ceremonial magicians, most claiming
to be the successors to the turn-of-the-century Golden Dawn or one of the
groups founded by Alesteir Crowley during his brillant and notorious occult
career. These have their own very elaborate ritual tradition, and tend to be
more intellectual, more rigid, and less nature-oriented. They are sometimes
reluctant to describe themselves as neopagans.
 
     The Discordians (and, more recently, the Discordian-offshoot Church of
the Sub-Genius) are few in number but quite influential. They are the neopagan
movement's sacred clowns, puncturing pretense and adding an essential note to
the pagan festivals. Many Wiccans, especially among priests and priestesses,
are also Discordians and will look you straight in the eye and tell you that
the entire neopagan movement is a Discordian hoax...
 
     Neopaganism used to be largely a white, upper-middle-class phenomenon,
but that has been changing during the last five years. So called 'new-collar'
workers have come in in droves during the eighties. We still see fewer
non-whites, proportionately, than there are in the general population, but
that is also changing (though more slowly). With the exception of a few
nut-fringe 'Aryan' groups detested by the whole rest of the movement, neopagans
are actively anti-racist; prejudice is not the problem, it's more that the
ideas have tended to be accepted by the more educated segments of society
first, and until recently those more educated segments were mostly white.
 
     On the East Coast, a higher-than-general-population percentage of
neopagans have Roman Catholic or Jewish backgrounds, but figures suggest this
is not true nationwide. There is also a very significant overlap in population
with science-fiction fandom and the Society for Creative Anachronism.
 
     Politically, neopagans are distributed about the same as the general
population, except that whether liberal or conservative they tend to be more
individualist and less conformist and moralistic than average. It is therefore
not too surprising that the one significant difference in distribution is the
presence of a good many more libertarians than one would see in a same-sized
chunk of the general population (I particularly register this because I'm a
libertarian myself, but non-libertarians have noted the same phenomenon).
These complexities are obscured by the fact that the most politically active
and visible neopagans are usually ex-hippie left-liberals from the '60s.
 
     I think the most acute generalization made about pagans as a whole is 
Margot Adler's observation that they are mostly self-made people, supreme
individualists not necessarily in the assertive or egoist sense but because
they have felt the need to construct their own culture, their own definitions,
their own religious paths, out of whatever came to hand rather than accepting
the ones that the mainstream offers.
 
IV. Where do I find out more?
     I have deliberately not said much about mythology, or specific religious
practice or aims, or the role of magic and to what extent we practice and
'believe' in it. Any one of those is a topic for another posting; but you can
get a lot of information from books. Here's a basic bibliography:
 
 
Adler, Margot _Drawing_Down_the_Moon_ (Random House 1979, hc)
 
This book is a lucid and penetrating account of who the modern neo-pagans
are, what they do and why they do it, from a woman who spent 
almost two years doing observer-participant journalism in the neo-pagan 
community. Especially valuable because it combines an anthropologist's 
objectivity with a candid personal account of her own feelings about all 
she saw and did and how her ideas about the neo-pagans changed under the 
impact of the experiences she went through. Recommended strongly as a 
first book on the subject, and it's relatively easy to find. There is now
a revised and expanded second edition available.
 
 
Starhawk _The_Spiral_Dance_
 
An anthology of philosophy, poetry, training exercises, ritual outlines
and instructive anecdotes from a successful working coven. First-rate
as an introduction to the practical aspects of magick and running a 
functioning circle. Often findable at feminist bookstores.
 
 
Shea, Robert and Wilson, Robert Anton _Illuminatus!_ (Dell, 1975, pb)
 
This work of alleged fiction is an incredible berserko-surrealist 
rollercoaster that _will_ bend your mind into a pretzel with an acid-head 
blitzkrieg of plausible, instructive and enlightening lies and a few 
preposterous and obscure truths. Amidst this eccentric tale of world-girdling
conspiracies, intelligent dolphins, the fall of Atlantis, who 
_really_ killed JFK, sex, drugs, rock and roll and the Cosmic Giggle 
Factor, you will find Serious Truths about Mind, Time, Space, the Nature 
of God(dess) and What It All Means -- and also learn why you should on 
no account take them Seriously. Pay particular attention to Appendix 
Lamedh ("The Tactics of Magick"), but it won't make sense until you've 
read the rest.
 
This was first published in 3 volumes as _The_Eye_In_The_Pyramid_, _The_
Golden_Apple_ and _Leviathan_, but there's now a one-volume trade
paperback carried by most chain bookstores under SF.
 
 
Campbell, Joseph W., _The_Masks_of_God_ (Viking Books, 1971, pb)
 
One of the definitive analytical surveys of world mythography -- and 
readable to boot! It's in 4 volumes:
 
I. _Primitive_Mythology_
II. _Oriental_Mythology_
III. _Occidental_Mythology_
IV. _Creative_Mythology_
 
The theoretical framework of these books is a form of pragmatic
neo-Jungianism which has enormously influenced the neopagans (we can 
accurately be described as the practice for which Campbell and Jung were 
theorizing). Note especially his predictions in vols. I & IV of a 
revival of shamanic, vision-quest-based religious forms. The recent 
Penguin pb edition of this book should be available in the Mythology and 
Folklore selection of any large bookstore.
 
 
Bonewits, Isaac, _Real_Magic_ (Creative Arts Books, 1979, pb)
 
A fascinating analytical study of the psychodynamics of ritual and 
magick. This was Bonewits's Ph.D. thesis for the world's only known 
doctorate in Magic and Thaumaturgy (UCLA Berkeley, 1971). Hardest of the 
five to find but well worth the effort -- an enormously instructive, 
trenchant and funny book.
 
V. Will there be more net.info on this topic?
   I am also available to answer questions by email or phone. Be warned that I
will probably tell you to go off and study some more, rather than referring you
to a group, if you haven't read at least two out of the five above or else good
equivalents like Michael Harner's _Way_Of_The_Shaman_ (Castaneda, UFOlogy books
and anything on astrology or the Great Pyramid will *not* count! Grrr...!).
 
   No fooling, learning to do this stuff right is hard work and demands a lot
more rigor and clear thinking than most people associate with 'occultism'.
But it's also fun and empowering and could turn out to be one of the couple
most important things you do with your life.
 
   If response to this posting is heavy, I may post some stuff on Wiccan ritual
practice and theology, that being what I know best.
 
-- 
      Eric S. Raymond
      UUCP:  {{seismo,ihnp4,rutgers}!cbmvax,sdcrdcf!burdvax,vu-vlsi}!snark!eric
      Post:  22 South Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA 19355    Phone: (215)-296-5718
151.17god subsitutePRYDE::ERVINThu Sep 01 1988 13:438
    re: .12
    
    I did not intent to say that Mary was presented as a god, but rather
    as a god substitute,  a figure that Goddess worshipers could relate
    to in the cause of converting them to god worship.  And it was used
    frequently and effectively as pointed out in another note, maybe
    .13 or .14...
    
151.18RANCHO::HOLTI came, I saw, I threw up...Thu Sep 01 1988 16:227
    
    re .16
    
    Wow! Hea-vy! 
    
    Thanks for posting it.
    Gotta see about getting netnews restored to granite:.
151.19DENVER::WILSONPIN SEARCH OF THE ELUSIVE NOTEThu Sep 01 1988 22:499
    RE: 16 
    
      I found that Wicca is more a way of life than a religion.  I find
      that I have become more aware of the world around me; the seasons,
      plants, animals, and yes, even people.
    
    Blessed be,
    
    Pat
151.20Symbols are stronger than words.METOO::LEEDBERGFri Sep 02 1988 01:0028
    
    
 
    
    
    The symbol of the labris is to strong a woman's symbol for it to
    be only representative of a few ideas.  It is so old, so ancient
    that there should be room for it to have many meanings.
    
    I read recently that it is the butterfly Goddess as she transfomrs
    and at first I did not like that idea - but now I like it.  It is
    gentle, delicate and beautiful.  BUT I also like the symbol of the
    double-sided axe - it is strong, a little fierce and beautiful.
     This is how I see women : gentle, strong, delicate, a little fierce
    BUT especially beautiful no matter who or what they are.
    
    So like the Goddess is the labris that I can not not want everyone
    to find a piece of themselves in it/her.
    
    _peggy
    
    		(-)
    		 |
    			What is Wicca - the Old Religion
    			Who is the Goddess - she is the earth and
    				all that lives on it
    
    
151.21 PRYDE::ERVINFri Sep 02 1988 11:4610
    Thank you, Peggy, for beautifully putting the concept forward.
    
    Blessed be.  (-)
                  |
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Laura
    
151.22Oh Oh, he's here again ....WOODRO::EARLYBob Early CSS/NSG-CSSEThu Sep 08 1988 16:2023
    re: .0
    
    Your annoyance is quite understandable. Stupid me, when I first went to
    Korea (Far East) and saw the "Swatstika" pasted all over the place I
    did a double take. 
    
    Since then, I have learned that this very honorable symbol has been in
    use since time began (Budhism ?) as the symbol for "long life" or some
    equal connotation (my apololgies if my memory fails in facts). 
    
    A number  of symbols seem to get "borrowed" by one poeple or another,
    for a totally different use. To me the 'labrys' indicates something to
    do with war and  vengeance, although the two headeness of it is
    certainly open to interpretation (sort of like Janus, with two faces,
    excpet in tha case of Janus, it is allegedly looking both forward and
    backward, and not necessarily in the modern usage of the term 'two
    faced'). 
    
    Same with the color  red. In the 1950's 'Red' took on an entirely
    new connotation, due to the McCarthy scares and etc. I guess wee
    could go on and om 'add sicknessum'.
    
    Bob (himself today)
151.23Yet another meaningREGENT::BROOMHEADDon't panic -- yet.Mon Sep 12 1988 19:356
    The labrys has a third meaning, in addition to that of ax and
    butterfly.  It is also a hoe-ax, used to break the ground for
    planting.  Thus, fittingly, it is a symbol of birth and growth
    (the hoe-ax), of death (the ax), and of rebirth (the butterfly).
    
    							Ann B.
151.24Lesbian <> LabyrisCSC32::JOHNSIn training to be tall and blackFri Sep 16 1988 19:058
re: the original note

I would never wear the labyris because I am a Christian and do not follow
the religious thinking that the labyris represents.  However, I do usually
assume that a woman wearing one is either lesbian or bisexual, because most
of the goddess-worshippers that I know are either lesbian or bi.

             Carol
151.25only 10000 to goDECWET::JWHITErule #1Mon Mar 06 1989 10:353
    re:. 23
    that is really quite beautiful!